Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 155 ｜ Deconversion

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable Happy Monday. I hope that everyone had a wonderful weekend.

00:00:07.340 As promised, we are talking about deconversion today. And by deconversion, I mean the act

00:00:12.840 or the process of leaving Christianity or denouncing your Christian faith.

00:00:18.620 The reason we are talking about deconversion today is because there have been two public

00:00:23.220 figures who have recently announced their disassociation with the Christian faith.

00:00:28.120 The first was Joshua Harris. He is a former pastor. He is the author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

00:00:35.360 And the second was Marty Sampson, a songwriter for Hillsong. So a lot of articles have been

00:00:40.560 written about both of these guys. A lot of commentary has been given. Some I agree with,

00:00:45.020 some I don't. Captions have been posted, tweets have been sent, etc. But my goal,

00:00:49.640 as always on Theological Monday, is to give us a biblical, thought-provoking perspective on what's

00:00:54.540 going on. Before I do that, I actually want to address an email that I got. And since it was

00:00:58.980 regarding my last Theological Monday episode, I thought it would be appropriate to bring it up

00:01:03.520 before we actually get into this. So someone admonished me in what I think was a very biblical

00:01:07.940 way. Apparently in my last episode, or last Monday's episode, I said that motherhood was the

00:01:12.740 best thing that ever happened to me. So I kind of use those superlatives a lot, thinking that it is

00:01:18.200 implied that obviously salvation and regeneration through Jesus Christ is actually the best thing that

00:01:22.820 has happened to me. But I probably shouldn't take that for granted. So to the person who reached

00:01:26.740 out to me and said, Hey, you might want to correct this. I appreciate you doing so in a loving way.

00:01:31.300 And that is true. Of course, nothing even comes close to that. That's eternal. Even something as

00:01:36.840 joyful and as wonderful as motherhood is temporary. And I should be more clear about that. So anyway,

00:01:42.320 I just wanted to clarify that in case any of you out there were thinking the same thing. And just

00:01:48.260 to let you know, I always take those kinds of emails very seriously. So thank you.

00:01:52.180 So, okay. So Joshua Harris was a big name in the purity culture of the nineties and the early

00:01:57.780 two thousands. Uh, he and his brother were the kind of young guys that Christian parents wanted

00:02:01.880 their kids to look up to. I remember my mom, uh, giving me the books. I kissed any goodbye in

00:02:06.720 another book he wrote, I think with his brother called do hard things. Um, I, by the way, did a

00:02:11.620 whole episode on purity culture titled purity culture a few months ago. So you should go check that

00:02:16.260 out. The good, the bad, the ugly, what we should actually take away from it and how we can change

00:02:20.180 it for our kids. Um, in July, uh, Joshua Harris announced that he and his wife were divorcing.

00:02:25.660 He said, uh, they've changed and they are continuing their lives as friends, uh, his wife,

00:02:31.280 interestingly enough, if you look her up or look on her Instagram, Instagram, she, uh, describes

00:02:36.240 herself as an ex evangelical. So that's the nickname that people use for themselves when they have left

00:02:43.140 what they would probably call a fundamentalist Christianity or just evangelical Christianity.

00:02:49.500 So she now rejects that, uh, that was the first bit of disappointing news for people who were fans

00:02:55.200 of Joshua Harris. I personally haven't been following him. I literally just knew his name

00:03:00.140 from I kids dating goodbye. Um, as Christians, of course, we know that what God's word says about

00:03:05.560 divorce, that he hates divorce. And there is certainly not a biblical justification for separation

00:03:11.140 due to just personality changes or some kind of evolution of interest or even spirituality or

00:03:17.660 anything like that. Uh, but that kind of tipped people off that there's probably something a little

00:03:22.740 deeper going on in his life than just an ending of a marriage. Uh, about a week later, he posted again,

00:03:29.580 this was the post that garnered a lot of media coverage and this time it was about his faith. So

00:03:34.460 it's a long post. Uh, here's one sentence from, and I won't read you the whole thing. He says,

00:03:39.160 by all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian, I am not a Christian. He also

00:03:44.420 apologizes for how his book may have hurt people, especially the LGBTQ community. Uh, a few days

00:03:50.100 later, he was pictured at a pride parade in Vancouver. He had actually written a blog post

00:03:54.840 when I was researching. I found this. I didn't know. He wrote a blog post a couple of years ago

00:03:59.760 saying that he regretted what he wrote in I Kissed Dating Goodbye. He kind of renounced the doctrine

00:04:04.300 that he supported then. And the publisher actually agreed upon his request to stop the publication of

00:04:10.360 the book. I never read it. Maybe I told my parents I did. I don't remember if I did read it. I must

00:04:16.800 have just skimmed it because I don't really remember, but I get the gist. It's basically,

00:04:20.240 you know, kissing goodbye, modern dating, and deciding to court someone with the very keen intention

00:04:29.240 of marrying that person. So it seems like for Josh Harris that this had been kind of a long time

00:04:34.820 coming or he's been kind of wrestling through some things for a while. I'm not sure what precipitated

00:04:39.300 this whole process for him, why he stopped believing the things that he wrote as a teenager

00:04:43.920 and as a 20 something, why he stopped believing the things that he used to preach as a pastor.

00:04:49.140 But the same thing seemed to happen for his wife. I don't know what she was like before. I've never

00:04:53.940 read anything that she's written if she's written anything, but the same thing kind of seemed to be

00:04:58.680 going on in her life. So they probably had an effect on one another. I can only guess.

00:05:03.240 And then there was Marty Samson, the guy who was a part of Hillsong, who also announced his

00:05:08.360 relinquishing of his Christian faith on Instagram. He has since deleted his posts, but there were,

00:05:13.960 again, a lot of articles on this that put the caption in the article. So here's part of what he

00:05:18.420 said. Time for some real talk. I'm genuinely losing my faith and it doesn't bother me. Like what

00:05:23.640 bothers me now is nothing. I am so happy now. So at peace with the world. It's crazy.

00:05:28.020 This is a soapbox moment. So here I go. How many preachers fall? Many. No one talks about it. How

00:05:33.020 many miracles happen? Not many. No one talks about it. Why is the Bible full of contradictions? No

00:05:37.780 one talks about it. How can God be beloved yet send 4 billion people to a place all because they

00:05:43.400 don't believe? No one talks about it. Christians can be so judgmental or can be the most judgmental 1.00

00:05:48.400 people on the planet. They can also be some of the most beautiful and loving people, but it's not for

00:05:52.480 me. What is amazing? Just, I got to pause for a second. What is amazing about the statements that

00:05:58.900 he just said is the absolute pride. And I don't know a nicer way to say this ignorance in the

00:06:05.760 questions that he's asking as if there haven't been thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of

00:06:10.760 people who have asked those very same theological questions and wrestled with them in truth,

00:06:18.240 seeking God's word for what feels like very uncomfortable, seeming contradictions in his

00:06:26.820 word. He is not the only person who has asked these questions. He is not the only person that

00:06:31.780 has struggled in this way. People throughout history have asked the same questions and have

00:06:35.920 wrestled in a way that seems to endure a lot longer than he has. So he says, it's not for me.

00:06:43.020 Then he goes on to say, all I know is what's true to me right now. And Christianity just seems 0.83

00:06:48.040 to me like another religion at this point. I could go on, but I won't. Love and forgive.

00:06:52.400 Absolutely. Be kind. Absolutely. Be generous and do good to others. Absolutely. Some things

00:06:56.820 are good no matter what you believe. Let the rain fall. The sun will come up tomorrow. So the

00:07:00.840 theological incompetence that he is demonstrating in this caption really disturbs me as someone who has

00:07:07.540 been writing some of our most prominent worship songs for almost two decades now. So after so much

00:07:14.980 hubbub surrounding this post, he actually came out and said, no, he's not, not a Christian

00:07:20.780 necessarily. He just has questions. Of course, that's not really what he said in his original

00:07:24.700 post. So I'm not totally sure what to think about that. I hope that it's true that he hasn't

00:07:29.060 completely renounced his faith and that he does just have questions. I don't want to deeply analyze

00:07:33.720 each of their captions because I think that would take too long. I don't think it's the most productive

00:07:37.560 thing to do because even though they said slightly different things, uh, they're coming out stories.

00:07:42.800 If you want to call it that share enough similarities for us to talk about them together and discuss

00:07:48.360 deconversion in general. Uh, we're going to talk about what deconversion is, how to recognize it,

00:07:54.820 what the Bible says about it and how we as Christians can a evaluate our own hearts and faith

00:07:59.760 and be help those who may be going through a deconversion experience themselves. Uh, in this,

00:08:05.240 we are also going to answer the very controversial question. Can someone actually lose their salvation

00:08:11.300 once they have been saved? So first, what is deconversion? Uh, it is also referred to often

00:08:17.140 as deconstruction. Some people may refer to it as a falling away, though. I'm not totally sure that

00:08:22.600 that's the correct phrase to use. It is the process of someone taking, this is how I describe it. I'm not,

00:08:29.120 I haven't looked this up on Wikipedia or anything, but it's the process of taking a step back from your

00:08:34.260 faith, taking it apart piece by piece, looking at each piece by itself, uh, one by one saying,

00:08:40.560 I don't like that. I don't agree with that. That's no good. Until finally you are left with just a few

00:08:47.160 pieces that suit you, your proclivities and your inclinations, but together they don't represent

00:08:53.260 Christianity. Um, it's funny that every single person that I have seen or heard of at least who 0.96

00:08:59.540 deconstructs their faith or deconverts from Christianity all choose the same pieces to throw 0.96

00:09:04.980 out and to keep. So they throw out the pieces that have to do with holiness, with obedience,

00:09:10.060 with sin and repentance. They're, they throw out the pieces about self-denial. Uh, they almost always

00:09:15.580 throw out the pieces about God's wrath. They throw out the pieces about biblical sexuality, that it is,

00:09:20.460 uh, excluded to one man and one woman within the context of marriage. I have quite a few episodes

00:09:25.220 on that. The most recent is titled biblical marriage. Uh, they throw out the pieces that

00:09:29.400 declare inarguably that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Uh, so they throw out everything

00:09:35.900 that makes them and other people uncomfortable. Anything that might cause an unbeliever to call

00:09:42.120 them a bigot, they throw out, they throw out all of the things, uh, that they swear that no one has

00:09:47.320 ever wrestled with, except for them. Instead of submitting their doubt to the word of God,

00:09:51.760 they lean on their own understanding with the, which the Bible explicitly tells us not to do

00:09:56.160 to make sense of that, which they just don't get, or makes them a little queasy. Uh, they throw out

00:10:03.580 the gospel of salvation. They throw out the cross. They throw out absolute truth. They throw out

00:10:08.460 biblical morality and holiness. And yet they hold onto the pieces of love, forgiveness, and grace,

00:10:14.500 not realizing, not realizing that these things, um, that one, that God alone both defines and

00:10:22.060 perfectly demonstrates these things. And two, without the gospel, these are nothing. They make

00:10:27.340 no sense. They have no lasting value whatsoever. The only reason that love, forgiveness, and grace

00:10:34.020 matter is because God says that they do. What is the point of love, forgiveness, and grace outside of

00:10:39.960 the gospel? They make you and other people feel good, but other than feelings, why should we operate

00:10:45.580 out of that kind of a worldview? Why do these things matter if they're not a directive from God?

00:10:52.240 And these are questions, not just for ex-evangelicals, if we just want to use that term,

00:10:56.920 but for anyone who claims to hold to morality defined by generosity towards others who don't believe

00:11:02.660 in the one true God, who tells us to live a life defined by generosity, and who showed us how to do so

00:11:07.900 by sending his son to die for us, the most radically generous act in all of eternity. I mean, why love

00:11:14.240 anyone but yourself? Why forgive those who have wronged you? Why give grace when you can just hold

00:11:18.880 a grudge? These are all perfectly acceptable choices in today's world. And yet every ex-evangelical that

00:11:25.480 I've ever encountered or read about still claims that selflessness, that mercy, that service are

00:11:31.840 important values to withhold. But the question is why? And most of them will say that you really

00:11:37.900 don't need to answer why, just like atheists and agnostics do. They also say you don't need to 0.96

00:11:42.700 answer why it just is. You don't need to know why, just because. We're just supposed to, because it

00:11:47.520 makes you a decent person. To which I say, okay, come on, let's not be lazy here. Like, let's just take

00:11:53.860 it a step further. Let's just think a little bit harder. What is supposed to mean? What is supposed?

00:11:59.160 What is a should? What does a decent mean if you're trying to be a decent person? What does that mean?

00:12:04.380 By what standard are you operating under? Those who do not find their reasoning for their belief

00:12:11.160 system in the God of the universe must find their reasoning for their belief system in the universe.

00:12:18.160 So those who do not find their reasoning for their belief system in the God of the universe

00:12:22.420 must find their reasoning for their belief system in the universe. And time and time again,

00:12:28.000 they find that it's just not there. Survival of the fittest does not account for kindness towards

00:12:33.120 strangers or grace for your enemy. Evolution doesn't account for beauty, for wonder, for joy,

00:12:38.940 grief, honesty, heroism, altruism, the things that human beings feel and do because we are made in

00:12:46.000 the image of God and that are made sense by and made complete in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

00:12:52.780 But this presents a really uncomfortable reality for deconverters or deconverts, however we say

00:13:01.420 that, and unbelievers in general. If all of these things have both their source and their significance

00:13:07.620 and the God who created them, the same God who became flesh and died on the cross for our sins,

00:13:12.500 who breathed out the scriptures that we have in our hands today, then we have no right to extricate

00:13:18.220 these things, decontextualize them, personalize them, and manipulate them and use them as we see fit.

00:13:24.000 We have no right. We have to look at them as part of the whole of God's word and God's character who

00:13:30.860 is not only loving and gracious and good, but also just and wrathful and holy. And it's the latter

00:13:37.680 characteristics and the obedience and worship that they demand that these deconverters and 0.98

00:13:42.720 agnostics and atheists do not like. Why? Because as we know, as sinful and fallen and selfish human 1.00

00:13:51.860 beings, all of us, self-denial is really uncomfortable. We, apart from Christ, only like to be uncomfortable

00:14:00.180 when it suits us, when it helps us advance our goals. We don't like to be uncomfortable when we

00:14:06.100 don't get something very tangible in return for us. This is especially true in this day and age when

00:14:12.060 sacrifice is demonized and selfishness is glorified as virtue. It's also especially true today when

00:14:18.500 being a Christian, someone who actually believes Jesus is the only way and thus holds to the Bible as

00:14:23.980 the inerrant word of God. When being a Christian, it means getting canceled. Being comfortable today 0.92

00:14:30.260 is just not worth it to most people. It feels better to lose our soul and gain the world than

00:14:36.700 gain our soul and be called a bigot. But those who deconvert unfortunately seem unaware of their fear 0.80

00:14:43.760 and rather emboldened by their confusion. They simultaneously claim to no longer know yet to

00:14:51.680 know everything much more clearly than ever before. They're unsure of what they believe,

00:14:56.460 but they're absolutely confident in that uncertainty. They dress up their discombobulation

00:15:01.780 as a philosophical revelation that only the unenlightened won't understand. It's amazing the

00:15:09.360 hubris that is involved in believing that you are the first one to ask questions, like I was saying

00:15:16.800 earlier that you've asked, or that anyone else that has asked the questions has ended up also

00:15:23.440 rejecting the word of God. It's amazing the pride that we all have, that we've all been guilty of

00:15:28.940 one time or another when we seek answers to our doubts in the world or in ourselves instead of in

00:15:34.260 the giver of wisdom himself, as if we're capable of that. Those who deconvert don't always announce

00:15:41.160 that they are atheists. Sometimes they call themselves spiritual. Sometimes they say that they're just

00:15:46.080 following Jesus, but they reject organized religion, or they're just, they don't relate

00:15:50.940 to Christianity, whatever it is. Sometimes they just don't know. And sometimes they still claim to 0.55

00:15:55.820 be Christians. But to now have a new understanding of the faith that is not supported by the Bible,

00:16:01.380 but is nevertheless inspired. Nevertheless, what they're going to go with and build their lives on.

00:16:06.800 Examples of these would be Jen Hatmaker and Glennon Doyle, who have decided that God has changed his mind

00:16:13.540 about sin and has redefined marriage from what he set up in the Garden of Eden and reflected in Christ

00:16:18.780 in the church and has caught up to culture. They think that it is very considerate of God to finally

00:16:24.320 get on the right side of history. And for those of you who are thinking, okay, we don't need to be

00:16:29.740 sarcastic about that. I think it's okay. I think that a little snark is probably a lot less harsh than

00:16:34.960 what the Bible has to say about false teachers. And I think it's important that we get into that.

00:16:38.960 Uh, here's what second Peter two says about false teachers. So people who try to, uh, lead others

00:16:45.140 away with a different gospel or false doctrine that doesn't align with the word of God. I won't

00:16:49.140 read the whole chapter of second Peter two, but I'm going to read a good chunk of it. But false prophets

00:16:54.200 also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you who will secretly bring

00:16:59.280 in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift

00:17:05.000 destruction and many will follow their sensuality. And because of them, the way of truth will be

00:17:10.060 blasphemed. And in their greed, they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long

00:17:15.420 ago is not idle and their destruction is not asleep. It goes on to say, listen to this, listen to what God

00:17:21.320 thinks of false teachers, um, and has planned for those who lead people astray. But these like irrational

00:17:28.920 animals, creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed a blasphemy, a blasphemy about matters 0.59

00:17:35.800 of which they are ignorant will also be destroyed in their destruction. Suffering wrong as the wage for

00:17:40.620 their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes

00:17:45.260 reveling in their deceptions while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for

00:17:50.720 sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed, accursed children forsaking the right

00:17:56.960 way. They have gone astray. These are waterless springs and mist driven by a storm for them. The

00:18:03.360 gloom of utter darkness has been reserved for speaking loud boasts of folly. They entice by sensual

00:18:09.000 passions of the flesh, those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them

00:18:15.120 freedom, but they themselves are slaves of, of corruption. That's a really good line. They promised

00:18:20.560 them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption for whatever overcomes a person to that

00:18:28.360 he is enslaved. If that doesn't put the literal fear of God in you, I don't know what will. God has

00:18:34.200 no tolerance whatsoever for those who lead others to a gospel that is not his, that is not the one 0.83

00:18:40.000 articulated in his word. Paul in his letter to the church in Galatia says this, Galatians 1, 6 through

00:18:45.800 eight. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of

00:18:50.220 Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Not that there is another one, but there are some who

00:18:55.460 trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach

00:19:01.280 to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed. Those who seek to have people 1.00

00:19:08.540 follow their new philosophy or any philosophy that does not line up with God's word, but they say that

00:19:14.800 it does, they purport it to be the gospel, uh, who promise freedom, but are themselves slaves of

00:19:20.100 corruption will meet God's wrath. Uh, and this is why we must pray for them. This is why we have to

00:19:25.780 pray for all of those who have been deceived, all of those who have, uh, given into the world. Pray

00:19:31.500 for not just these names that the world knows, but also those in your life, in my life. Uh, pray that

00:19:37.220 as Ephesians 1, 18 says that the eyes of their hearts would be enlightened, that they may know the

00:19:41.460 hope to which they've been called, pray for their repentance, uh, pray that God would give them

00:19:45.800 grace, pray that Christians would speak boldly into their lives, that their Christian friends

00:19:50.620 and family would not tolerate them, not knowing the truth. And there's this, we have to pray for

00:19:55.440 ourselves. I have to pray for my heart, my faith, that God would strengthen me, that I wouldn't be

00:20:00.580 so prideful to think that I couldn't be deceived to deceive other people. We have to pray for our

00:20:05.120 families, our pastors, the godliest, holiest people we know. We have to pray for them too.

00:20:09.980 Uh, Philippians 2, 12 says that we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

00:20:15.260 And I know that can sound really scary or really legalistic or that salvation is up to us, but we

00:20:19.940 read the next part that says, for it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good

00:20:25.620 pleasure. So God works in us and through him, he allows us to be able to obey and to seek and trust

00:20:31.400 and worship and submit and surrender. Uh, if you have a friend who has done this, who is deconverted,

00:20:37.280 share the gospel with them. It doesn't matter if they say, Hey, I grew up in church. I know

00:20:41.520 everything that you're about to say. I don't hear, I don't need to hear that Jesus died for me.

00:20:45.400 Tell them, uh, if you have a friend who rejects what, you know, according to the Bible is true

00:20:50.340 Christianity, share the gospel. Then we have to pray as Romans 2, 4 says that God's kindness

00:20:55.120 would lead them to repentance. Um, in addition to praying, we have to read our Bibles and we are all,

00:21:01.260 we are all guilty, me included, definitely of neglecting reading scripture and studying theology.

00:21:07.400 Um, but our doubts in our questions, our concerns have to find reconciliation. They have to find

00:21:13.340 their answer in God's word and in his wisdom and not in our own understanding. We're always going to

00:21:18.900 be confused. Uh, we have to know our theology. One of the biggest problems with young Christians today, 1.00

00:21:24.600 I've talked about this so many times before is that they don't know theology. They don't know their

00:21:28.960 Bibles. They don't read God's word. They don't know what God's word says about what's going on. 0.99

00:21:33.900 And so they just follow cultural whims. Uh, they craft their own version of what they call Christianity 0.95

00:21:40.320 and then they end up worshiping themselves. And we shouldn't be surprised when they walk away

00:21:45.480 altogether. Uh, if you are a part of a church or a particular version of so-called Christianity that

00:21:53.220 does not prioritize reading and studying and meditating on the word of God, or does not view

00:22:00.480 the word of God, supreme or inerrant, you are in the wrong place. Uh, your church leadership is not

00:22:06.640 inerrant. Your pastor is not inerrant. Your counselor is not inerrant. Your catechism is not inerrant,

00:22:12.400 but the word of God is. Uh, and if you don't know it, if we don't know it, if I don't know it,

00:22:18.200 I'll fall. Uh, now here's the big question. Does all of this mean if we're supposed to pray and

00:22:24.060 persevere and strive and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, does this mean that a

00:22:28.920 Christian can lose their salvation? Uh, let me read for you Ephesians 1, 13 through 14.

00:22:36.100 Uh, you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

00:22:41.680 When you believed you were marked in him with this seal, the promised Holy spirit, who is a deposit

00:22:46.960 guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of 0.88

00:22:52.180 his glory. A Christian is someone who has heard and believed the message of truth, which is, uh,

00:22:58.320 that Jesus Christ, God made flesh, died and rose again, defeating sin and death, and is coming back

00:23:03.180 to rule for all eternity, uh, which this passage says is the gospel of our salvation. So our reconciliation

00:23:09.440 to God, our justification, our regeneration, uh, that's what Jesus accomplished for us. Uh, which means

00:23:15.500 as second Corinthians 5, 17 says that when we are saved by Jesus, we are a new creation. So not just

00:23:21.780 a new and improved or a better and improved version of ourselves, but actually a new creation. The old

00:23:27.400 has passed. The new has come. Uh, that Ephesians passage says that we were marked with a seal, the

00:23:32.960 Holy spirit, that is a deposit or a down payment. It's another word for that, a guarantee of our

00:23:39.240 inheritance, a guarantee, a promise. Um, it is promised to us and God does not break his promises.

00:23:47.040 I don't know about you, but that to me sounds really permanent. That sounds like something that

00:23:52.400 we can't change on our own. Uh, in John 10, 28, Jesus says, I give them eternal life and they will

00:23:58.980 never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Romans 8, 38 through 39 says,

00:24:04.780 for I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present,

00:24:10.120 nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation

00:24:14.400 will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord. Uh, first John

00:24:19.820 2, 19 says they went out from us, but they were not of us for if they had been of us, they

00:24:25.060 would have continued with us. Uh, I heard John MacArthur say that if you could lose your salvation,

00:24:30.740 you would. And I think that is true. According to God's word, the Bible is clear that it is

00:24:36.380 God who saves us, who chooses us, who predestines us as Ephesians 1, 4 through 5 says, uh, he and he

00:24:43.360 alone can take credit for our salvation. Ephesians 2 says that we are dead in our sin apart from Christ.

00:24:49.200 Dead people can't save themselves. They don't have any part in their salvation. So if Christ is fully

00:24:54.160 responsible for our salvation, it's not ours to lose. Uh, Philippians 1, 6 says,

00:24:58.920 and I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day

00:25:04.800 of Jesus Christ. Uh, remember Philippians 2, 13, that we quoted earlier, that it is God who works

00:25:09.980 in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Uh, those who are truly saved are saved

00:25:16.200 forever and ever. According to God's word, I don't see any other way to interpret the verses that we

00:25:21.520 just read. Uh, Ephesians 1, 4 says that we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

00:25:27.720 If we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world to be adopted as sons and daughters,

00:25:31.980 it doesn't make any sense to believe that we can lose that. Uh, that adoption isn't going to fall

00:25:37.860 through. Uh, those who walk away from what they purported to be a Christian. And here's the key

00:25:43.580 part and never repented and never came back. We're never saved. They may have known the Bible

00:25:50.500 just as Satan and his demons know the Bible. They may have had spiritual experiences, but they were

00:25:57.420 never saved. However, if a person is saved, the Lord will call them back to repentance and by grace

00:26:04.160 they will obey. And so I pray for these people's repentance. Everyone who we listed here today,

00:26:10.440 everyone that we know who is in the same kind of position, I pray for their repentance. I pray for

00:26:15.420 their restoration. I pray for their deliverance. Uh, I pray that God would have mercy on them. I

00:26:20.840 pray that God would continue to give me grace, to give us grace, to work out our salvation with fear

00:26:25.900 and trembling. And we all should be praying the same thing. I think one part that's confusing is

00:26:31.100 that the Bible is so clear that we also need to persevere, that we also need to endure, that we also

00:26:35.680 need to work out our salvation as the Bible says. But I think what we have to remember before we say,

00:26:41.280 well, that's contradictory. Maybe we do have some part in our salvation. Maybe we are responsible

00:26:45.240 for it and maybe we can lose it. Um, remember what we do when it seems like two things contradict each

00:26:50.180 other is that we reconcile them with the word of God. And I think the way that we do that is that we

00:26:54.780 realize that even the perseverance and the so-called striving or the working that we're do, that we're

00:27:00.440 doing is a work of the Holy Spirit. And that yes, we are called to obey. Yes, we are called to

00:27:07.260 persist and persevere and to make sure that we are testing ourselves and examining ourselves as the

00:27:13.500 word of God says. Um, but even that is a work of the Holy Spirit. And because we have the Holy Spirit

00:27:18.800 and as a guarantee of our inheritance, we can be assured that we were chosen before the foundation of

00:27:23.500 the world. And that is not going to change. That's part of God's eternal plan. There's a verse in the

00:27:29.460 book of Job and someone I'm sure can tell me what the specific reference is. And I don't remember, but

00:27:33.580 there's a verse in the book of Job that says, uh, no plan of God's can be thwarted. I think it's

00:27:39.920 Job talking. So he says, I know that no plan of yours can be thwarted. And we know that, especially

00:27:45.360 as it pertains to salvation. We've talked about how Jesus says that not even a sparrow falls from the

00:27:49.840 sky without, um, uh, without the heavenly father knowing about it. So if God even knows about that,

00:27:56.800 something that is so insignificant, I think that we can also trust that he knows. And therefore,

00:28:01.560 because he is fully sovereign predestines our salvation, and there's nothing that we can do

00:28:05.260 to lose it. So again, we pray for repentance and restoration. We pray for our own selves,

00:28:09.980 that we continue to have grace and that we would persevere that the Holy Spirit would give us that

00:28:14.720 strength. Um, that's it for today. I hope that answered some questions that you guys had. There

00:28:19.140 are so many different directions that we could, that we could go in this. I hope that you guys know

00:28:23.500 that I am not coming from any kind of place of pride or self-righteousness. It makes me very sad

00:28:28.040 that these two people are going through this season. And, um, I take no joy whatsoever in

00:28:34.860 them giving us content to talk about on this subject for this podcast. Uh, not at all. I have

00:28:41.620 sympathy for them and my heart breaks for them. And I think it should, uh, for all of us and just pray

00:28:47.560 also that no one is led astray by them as well. Uh, okay. Thank you guys so much for listening. As

00:28:52.900 always, if you've got any questions, email me, ally at the conservative millennial blog.com.

00:28:56.720 Please share this podcast with your friends if you like it. And I will see you guys back here on

00:29:01.300 Wednesday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 26, 2019

Ep 155 ｜ Deconversion

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