Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 16 ｜ Christian Egalitarianism with the Sheologians

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to CRTV's Relatable with me, your beloved host, Allie Stuckey, where we break

00:00:06.700 down relevant political and cultural topics from a conservative Christian perspective. Yes, I go

00:00:13.100 ahead and tell you my bias outright, but I always try to do the best job that I possibly can to tell

00:00:18.780 you multiple sides of the story and to tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And

00:00:23.740 you always have the freedom of emailing me, Allie, at the conservativemillennialblog.com

00:00:28.480 if you feel like I'm not doing an adequate job of that, or you can send me a nice email. That

00:00:33.320 would be great too. So I have been taking a lot of interviews on this podcast lately, which is

00:00:39.100 actually not usual. I typically take 30 minutes or an hour somewhere in there breaking down one

00:00:46.520 subject from multiple perspectives on my own. But there have been a few particularly deep and

00:00:52.960 nuanced topics on which I've wanted to give the insight of other people. And I also just happen

00:01:01.440 to know some awesome people that I've wanted to introduce you to. And today it is both. I want

00:01:09.880 to talk about a somewhat complex topic with two people that I consider experts, and I just want

00:01:16.440 you to meet them because I think they're great. Summer White and Joy Tim B. of the Sheologians

00:01:21.360 podcast are here to talk about this trend of egalitarianism happening in Christianity and

00:01:27.020 the danger that it entails. A lot of you guys probably already know the Sheologians. You might

00:01:32.460 even follow me because you heard me on the Sheologians podcast, but I really just love them. If you're

00:01:39.460 looking for a good Christian podcast from women who are serious about good, correct theology, not that

00:01:45.480 overtly emotional stuff that we get from a lot of female Bible study leaders, then I definitely

00:01:50.840 recommend their podcast. Okay. At the end, I'm going to answer one quick Bible question. I'm going

00:01:58.000 to tell you one thing I don't get and one special something to leave you with. I'm not going to talk

00:02:04.080 about what's going on in the news this particular podcast. I usually do, but I just don't have time

00:02:09.840 because I want to cover this subject. There's a lot going on in the news. I'm going to have an article

00:02:14.320 coming out about what I think about everything that's going on with civility. That's kind of the topic

00:02:19.380 of conversation this week with people that are being harassed in the Trump administration.

00:02:24.260 People like Maxine Waters calling for them to be harassed. Is civility dead? All of that stuff.

00:02:29.660 I'm not going to talk about that today because I have an article coming out on Conservative Review.

00:02:34.160 So make sure that you look out for that. Today, we're talking about egalitarianism. And before I get

00:02:39.240 into the conversation with Summer and Joy, I'm going to give you some context. First, what the heck do I

00:02:46.980 mean by egalitarianism? Egalitarianism in the secular sense is this idea that not only are men and women

00:02:54.780 of equal worth, which of course they are, but egalitarianism also holds that they are able and

00:03:00.480 should be able to perform the exact same roles pretty much. I don't disagree with that idea entirely.

00:03:06.440 And certainly from that secular perspective, I do think that women can and should be elected and

00:03:12.220 promoted and hired for positions of leadership and should be held to no different standards than men

00:03:18.560 are. But egalitarianism doesn't properly account for the very real ways, even from a secular sense

00:03:24.960 that men and women are different. They don't believe in any leadership or differing roles in

00:03:31.360 marriage, especially, for example. It kind of blurs the lines of gender and pretends that essentially men

00:03:36.620 and women are the same, which is exactly why egalitarianism in the context of the church

00:03:42.640 and the context of biblical Christianity does not work. Christian egalitarianism is primarily a

00:03:49.460 liberal movement to eliminate traditional gender roles in the church. So they believe women should

00:03:54.360 be able to be pastors and priests, for example. And by the way, I do feel like I'm kind of getting a

00:03:59.800 cold. So if I sound like hoarse or weird, that is why. Just FYI. Anyway, Christian egalitarians also

00:04:10.240 take issue with male headship with a marriage. They generally believe that the call for the wife to

00:04:15.400 submit to her husband is kind of archaic and can be a precursor for abuse, domination, things like that.

00:04:22.720 It's basically a push by Christian feminists to put men and women on what they consider

00:04:27.980 the same level. And I take a lot of issues with that phrase, the same level, because I don't think

00:04:35.880 it's a very good description, but I'll get to that in a little bit. There are several other problems

00:04:40.520 with this. Number one, first and foremost, and really the only reason that matters of why this is wrong

00:04:48.860 is that they are biblically incorrect. There is a difference between male and female. You can read

00:04:56.900 Genesis 1 through 3 to see that. I mean, you can read the entire Bible, but if you want to go back

00:05:02.060 to the very beginning, you could start at the beginning of Genesis. God made them male and

00:05:07.820 female, both in his image, but differently. God could have made two people from the dust simultaneously

00:05:13.900 if he had wanted to. He could have made them in pretty much every way the exact same, but he chose not

00:05:19.940 to. He made Adam first and Eve came from Adam, out of his side. Eve is described as Adam's helper.

00:05:27.600 The Hebrew word I say is there, but when I looked it up, it says azer. So I'm going to say azer.

00:05:35.600 This does not mean helper as in servant, since it's a word also frequently used to describe God

00:05:42.040 himself in the Old Testament, but as a form of power and necessary strength. That's how Eve is

00:05:46.960 described. Eve was created because it wasn't good for Adam to be alone. This means that Adam was

00:05:53.120 insufficient by himself. He actually needed Eve. So when people, and particularly Christian feminists,

00:05:59.640 talk about the creation story being sexist or laying the groundwork for the patriarchy, I say,

00:06:04.760 no, not really. Eve was created from Adam for Adam to provide the help and strength that he

00:06:14.260 desperately needed. Egalitarians would like to believe that Eve was made as a self-sufficient

00:06:20.680 person and would take issue with the idea of being made for Adam. But I mean, there's some nuance to

00:06:29.340 that. She wasn't made to live her life and to do her own thing, but neither was Adam. Both were made

00:06:34.540 first and foremost and really entirely to bring glory to God. And then secondly, they were made to

00:06:42.740 compliment one another. It was never good for man to be alone. God never meant for men and women to

00:06:48.700 be completely self-sufficient. Also, Adam and Eve were cursed differently. While some curses after the

00:06:56.160 fall, they shared like death and suffering. They also had separate curses. A man's specific curse

00:07:01.700 relates to fruitlessly working and a woman's specific curse is pain and childbearing. And also very

00:07:06.680 important that our desire will be for our husband and he will rule over you. This means that there will be a

00:07:12.460 fight for headship in marriage. We will want his role. He will struggle with passivity. There was no

00:07:18.480 need for ruling and submission when man and woman lived in perfect, sinless, complimentary harmony.

00:07:24.500 But because of sin, there is. This egalitarian movement is a direct result of the curse of Genesis

00:07:31.400 3, in my opinion. These are women and men who are struggling with male headship that God ordained,

00:07:37.840 and they are pushing against that. It's just a consequence of sin that we're seeing this

00:07:44.620 egalitarian movement. And not only are they pushing against it, they're doing it in the name of

00:07:49.880 Christianity, which of course is blasphemy. Not only are men and women very different, but they do have

00:07:56.740 different roles in the context of the church and in the context of marriage. 1 Corinthians 14, 34,

00:08:04.420 the woman should keep silent in the churches for they are not permitted to speak, but should be in

00:08:08.880 submission. 1 Timothy 2, 12, I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over man.

00:08:14.580 Rather, she is to remain quiet. Now, look, I know, I know a lot of us strong-willed women

00:08:20.480 cringe when we hear these verses. I'm not going to pretend like I read those verses and I'm like,

00:08:26.060 oh yeah, that sounds really good. I mean, I love staying quiet. I mean, you guys know me. I don't,

00:08:31.540 I don't ever like to stay quiet. So I understand if you hear that and you're like, oh, but I just

00:08:38.000 want to put that in the context of the churches back then. I don't, I don't want that to be true

00:08:42.020 today. I totally understand that resistance and that feeling, but let's back up for a second,

00:08:47.660 because this is God's word. And because it's God's word, we have to trust that it is not only true,

00:08:51.940 but it is also good. So let's start with, with that mentality and then go from there.

00:08:58.240 Um, first of all, both are in the context of the church and they have specific meanings.

00:09:02.600 I have the ESV study Bible, and I'm not saying that the study portion of it is inerrant,

00:09:07.920 but I think typically that it is pretty spot on in its interpretation from the other research that

00:09:13.860 I've done. I'm also a big fan of, uh, Wayne Grudem's reformed theology that helps me, um, oh,

00:09:20.080 sorry, systematic theology, uh, that helps me make sure I'm on the right track. Um, in, uh,

00:09:28.000 first Corinthians 14 34, Paul probably doesn't mean a complete and total prohibition of women

00:09:34.260 speaking, um, since, or speaking in church since in chapter 11, he does permit women to pray and to

00:09:40.600 prophesy, uh, with certain conditions. The immediate context in this verse is judging of prophecy,

00:09:47.120 which is probably what he is saying women should not do. Um, first Timothy 2 12 means that women are

00:09:53.720 not supposed to teach Christian doctrine to men in church, and they are not to exercise authority

00:09:59.000 over men in church. Women teaching women, teaching children, having leadership roles outside the church

00:10:04.020 are all permissible as far as I can see by biblical standards. Um, but these particular things in this

00:10:09.580 verse are not, um, also in the context of marriage, uh, we can look at Ephesians 5 22 through 33.

00:10:16.420 For one example, wives are to submit to their husbands. Husbands are meant to love their wives. In fact,

00:10:22.460 the husband is called to love his wife as he loves his own body to nourish and cherish her, uh, the way

00:10:29.200 that Christ does the church. The husband should be imitating Christ, the woman embodying the church.

00:10:35.000 And I know that we hear that word submit and we're, we cringe a little bit because it's like,

00:10:40.180 it sounds like a slave to her master. Um, but when you look down just a few verses later and you read

00:10:47.260 the husband's role, that doesn't sound like a slave and a master relationship at all. That just sounds

00:10:53.360 like two different roles of the husband, not only leading his wife, but serving his wife completely

00:10:59.500 sacrificially and completely selflessly. I mean, the role of the husband is one of absolute humility.

00:11:05.940 Yes. Does he have to, at the end of the day, uh, make the ultimate spiritual and even maybe

00:11:12.620 sometimes financial decisions for the family? Um, yeah, but that doesn't mean that he is a ruler who

00:11:21.360 says, okay, wife, this is the way that we're doing things. Um, not at all. This is a symbiotic

00:11:27.380 relationship and a partnership that happens to have two different and complimentary roles. Um,

00:11:34.140 for example, you guys know, I am a very strong-willed outspoken person. There are very few situations

00:11:42.260 in which I do not make my opinion known. My husband, who is absolutely wonderful, who I love

00:11:49.660 more than anything in this entire world. He is more quiet. Um, he's not quite as opinionated as I am.

00:11:58.680 Um, so I am not constantly going to my husband and saying, husband, I'm, I'm submitting to you. Can

00:12:05.840 you tell me what to think about this or help me form my opinion about this? That's not how the

00:12:11.360 conversations in our house go. I mean, we, we talk about things, we talk about, uh, politics,

00:12:16.600 we talk about decisions that we're going to make, but at the end of the day, um, I'm going to trust him

00:12:22.320 to make decisions that either we don't come to an agreement on, or I truly don't know the direction

00:12:30.040 to go. For example, we are in the process of becoming, um, members at a new church. That was

00:12:36.200 a process that was led by him. And that doesn't mean that I didn't have a say in it, but he, he is

00:12:41.460 the one that made that decision for us, that forged that road for us, that made sure, okay, we're going

00:12:45.860 to this class to make sure that we are going to be members. Um, we're going to make sure that we do all

00:12:51.100 of, you know, the things that we have to do to become members. He has taken, uh, he, he has taken

00:12:57.480 leadership in that. Um, and like I said, that doesn't mean that I'm not a part of it, but I'm

00:13:02.340 trusting him with the spiritual formation and the spiritual leadership of our family. So I don't know

00:13:08.520 if that makes complete in total sense, just because I know that there's a lot of people that hear that

00:13:13.320 and that hear the whole submission thing and they kind of freak out, but I don't want you to freak

00:13:18.680 out and we should never freak out over God's word because he knows what he's talking about.

00:13:22.940 Anyway, um, that said, I understand why feminists are pushing for egalitarianism. Despite, uh, these

00:13:31.120 verses, they, they feel offensive. Like I said, but that comes really from misunderstanding of

00:13:36.840 scripture and a mistrust of God. Uh, God doesn't give man the role of teacher and leader in the church

00:13:43.300 because he loves man more or because he thinks more highly of him, but because that's the

00:13:48.480 responsibility that he's chosen to give him. Women, um, as leaders and teachers elsewhere, as her

00:13:54.560 husband's strong helper, if she's married, isn't less than, doesn't reflect God's glory any less.

00:14:00.400 It's just different. And if we believe that God is good, that he loves us, then we should take him

00:14:06.420 at his word and trust that his order and commands are also good and that they are good for us.

00:14:12.440 And that most importantly, they give him glory. Um, most reformed Christians today are what we call

00:14:18.020 a complimentarian, which means that men and women have different roles ordained by God to compliment

00:14:23.180 one another. And in particular, that husbands and wives have different roles that compliment one

00:14:27.500 another. Uh, this does not mean that all women are supposed to submit in all context to all men.

00:14:32.880 It means that in marriage, uh, men are the humble, godly servant leaders and in the church,

00:14:38.340 executive authority and the authority of the elders should be male. Um,

00:14:42.040 the egalitarian push has existed for a while. There are certain denominations, um, that have

00:14:48.100 been heading this direction for many years, factions of, uh, the Episcopalian church, factions to the

00:14:54.840 Baptist church, factions of the Presbyterian church. Uh, but now it's being talked about in a more

00:14:59.180 mainstream and even non-denominational way, uh, because I think in part of the Me Too movement and

00:15:05.780 the recent fallout of the president of, uh, the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary,

00:15:11.700 Paige Patterson, a lot of you guys have asked me about this, who also used to be president of the

00:15:15.760 Southern Baptist Convention, which was the largest faction of, or is the largest faction of, uh,

00:15:22.540 Protestant Christianity. Um, he also used to be the president of Southeastern Baptist Theological

00:15:28.600 Seminary. He played a major role. He actually probably was the forerunner for this and what was called the

00:15:35.720 conservative resurgence of Southern Baptist, uh, people called him and still call him a fundamentalist,

00:15:41.500 but no matter what you thought of him, he was a really big deal. He was what a lot of people

00:15:46.060 considered a savior from liberalism for Baptists, particularly from the questioning of the inerrancy

00:15:51.360 of scripture and of biblical gender roles. Uh, he was big on preaching the importance of female

00:15:56.760 submission. And ironically, it was a female who ultimately led to his extremely just demise. Um,

00:16:04.420 he, while he was the president of, I'm going to try to use, um, abbreviations here, uh, S-E-B-T-S,

00:16:12.680 a, um, a, a woman brought forth a rape allegation to Patterson and the school board. And they not only

00:16:20.480 did not, uh, report the rape themselves, but actually encouraged this woman to, uh, to not report it.

00:16:27.520 And they put her on probation for letting the guy who raped her into her apartment. It was like a

00:16:33.540 boyfriend or a guy that she was dating. They had been kissing and then he raped her. Um, but of

00:16:38.000 course this was her fault. Uh, this was all the way back in 2003, by the way. Um, so she was actually

00:16:44.620 punished for it. He, uh, Paige Patterson actually said in an email exchange about this whole thing

00:16:49.480 that he was going to try to quote, break her down. He also lied about this to the board when he was

00:16:54.240 asked about it. So yeah, that's great. Um, comments also surfaced this month, uh, by Patterson saying

00:17:00.160 that he counseled abused women to stay with their abusing husband. Uh, he also said crude

00:17:05.400 things to a teenage girl and he was known for criticizing the looks of, uh, seminary students

00:17:11.480 who were female. So yeah, not a great guy. Sounds like kind of a scumbag who thought that he was

00:17:17.220 impervious to accountability. A lot of people have spoken out about this, of course, and in particular,

00:17:22.700 Beth Moore, who wrote an open letter documenting the sexism. Not that she's experienced, uh, from

00:17:28.560 Paige Patterson particularly, um, but that she's just experienced as a Bible teacher in this other

00:17:34.240 Baptist convention for decades. And, you know, I have some other thoughts about Beth Moore

00:17:39.080 theologically. I think that she has some interesting views, but this was a good letter. Um, I also,

00:17:47.900 I know that she said a lot about Trump, but we're not talking about her political leanings right now.

00:17:52.820 Um, I thought this was a good letter. Um, we should be talking about sexism and discrimination

00:17:59.280 and unfair treatment of women in the church that they are sins. Um, there is no place for

00:18:05.720 objectification and shame of women in the body of Christ. None. And it would be the same way if it

00:18:10.960 was towards men. And, you know, I'm actually thankful for the Me Too movement for the conversations

00:18:16.200 that started. Uh, yes, hopefully Patterson would have been fired anyway, but you just do have to

00:18:22.080 wonder if Me Too has at least upped the ante for these kinds of things. Um, I actually think that

00:18:27.600 it's good that men are realizing, uh, that you're not going to be able to hide in the shadows as a

00:18:35.180 rapist, as a harasser or abuser. Um, I say actually, because there are other very serious flaws to Me Too

00:18:42.820 that I've discussed very thoroughly in past episodes and on my blog. Uh, but one great thing

00:18:48.720 about it, I think is that is the bravery and the protection that it's offering women to speak up

00:18:53.940 about their abuse and about the people who shamed them and hid their abuse. That's not only good.

00:18:59.340 It is also biblical. Uh, God sees the abused. He cares for the abused. He hates those who inflict abuse

00:19:06.100 and it is right for these situations to be uncovered. So victims can heal. Um, SBC Southern Baptist

00:19:12.320 Convention had a conference a couple of weeks ago about the state of the convention. Uh, J.D. Greer

00:19:18.060 became president, which a lot of people are happy about. And from what I've read, there was a lot of

00:19:22.820 talk at the conference about misogyny and the need for female representation in the church, particularly

00:19:28.600 in places of leadership. Um, I'm not saying this was advocated for, uh, by Greer or that the SBC is

00:19:36.020 implementing strategies for female representation, but reports like in Christianity Today say that women were

00:19:42.040 really the talk of the SBC conference. And here's what I fear in that, not just for the SBC,

00:19:49.280 but for the church in general, that we will look to egalitarianism, to feminism, and to social justice

00:19:59.500 as the answer to misogyny and abuse rather than description. Um, Patterson's misbehavior

00:20:06.280 doesn't render the Bible or even his views about male headship in marriage incorrect. The Bible

00:20:15.920 does have structures and dynamics in place. Now I think that they were misused and misinterpreted by

00:20:23.740 Patterson, but the structures in the Bible are still ordained by God for our good. And wandering

00:20:32.220 from those will not ultimately bring healing to the church or to any victims. Jesus will. Jesus is the

00:20:40.100 answer to the abuse and the dejection and the injustice that we're seeing in the church. Jesus

00:20:48.900 is the only one that's going to be able to heal and satisfy the victims of this abuse, not egalitarianism,

00:20:56.180 not disobedience to God's word. But that is where I fear we are headed, that the pendulum is going to

00:21:02.860 swing too far in the other direction. Um, so now that you have some context of why we're talking about

00:21:09.960 this, why this is a relevant topic for Christians, um, here is my conversation with Joy and Summer of

00:21:16.020 the Sheologians. Okay. Sheologians, will you please tell everyone who you guys are and what you do?

00:21:22.740 I'm Summer. And I'm Joy. We have a podcast called Sheologians. And what do we do? Well, we have people

00:21:31.840 like you on our show. Yes. Um, we have authors come on our show and we basically talk about the biblical

00:21:39.700 worldview and what happens when it meets our current culture. Is that a good definition? Yeah. We talk a lot

00:21:47.480 about feminism, feminism in the church, feminism outside of the church. Um, lots of stuff relating

00:21:53.700 to feminism, like certainly social Marxism and intersectionality, things like that. So it does

00:22:00.060 kind of, yeah, I guess feminism is kind of a foundation for a lot of what we do. Yes. But we

00:22:05.080 also, um, laugh a lot or as our listeners like to say, giggle. Yes, you do. Y'all do giggle a lot.

00:22:11.520 That's like the number one. I get that all the time. It's like, people are like, you know, I just,

00:22:18.240 I like their show when they stop giggling. So that's like our biggest, um, complaint other than

00:22:24.160 also we're rude. Oh, well, my favorite thing actually that we've ever, that has been that

00:22:30.000 we've earned. Oh, we earned it. I guess is that we were put on a list of like the top 150 females on

00:22:37.760 the internet. Yeah, we did make the list. And that's like my most proud thing. Wow, congratulations.

00:22:44.600 I think that there's a lot of crossover probably between our two audiences because even though you

00:22:50.100 guys don't say you are conservative and I'm not even assuming that you're politically conservative,

00:22:56.100 but because of a lot of, a lot of the arguments that you guys make about feminism, about

00:23:00.380 intersectionality, all of these cultural political things on the left and y'all's critiques of them,

00:23:05.320 people do appreciate your conservatism when it comes to theological, cultural, and even sometimes

00:23:12.480 political issues. Do you guys ever get any pushback about that? Oh yeah, a lot of pushback.

00:23:21.320 Um, are you asking for, are we getting a lot of pushback specifically in the political discussion?

00:23:26.240 Yeah, sure. Um, I don't, I don't know. I think that, I mean, we are conservative. Um,

00:23:34.540 we're definitely liberal in some areas, like, uh, I would say classically liberal in some areas.

00:23:41.580 Um, I think that, uh, sometimes I have actually very libertarian views. Right. Um, although I

00:23:48.880 don't definitely don't go all the way with those. Um, but I think that for both of us, the foundation

00:23:55.300 is that we are Christians and, um, I think conservative Christian is starting to have, um,

00:24:02.200 I don't even know what people, when people say that sometimes now I ask what they mean by that.

00:24:07.560 Yeah. Um, because I just think most of America is very middle of the road, very moderate. And I

00:24:13.920 don't know that either of us are very moderate in any of our views. Yeah. Yeah. I think we probably

00:24:20.200 have the same mentality when it comes to political and cultural issues is that, well, my worldview is

00:24:27.640 biblical and that worldview determines what I think about culture and politics. And that doesn't mean

00:24:33.660 that I'm perfect on every single thing that I articulate, or it doesn't mean that I'm not trying

00:24:38.000 to figure out how some issues fit into my biblical worldview, but that's what determines my politics.

00:24:43.660 So I think that's why the term conservative Christian is also a little bit misleading because

00:24:48.360 it's like, what does that mean? I don't like a political term to describe my relationship with

00:24:55.620 God or my faith, you know? Right. No, I totally agree. Yeah. Um, so what specifically we're going

00:25:01.920 to talk about today, since you guys do talk about feminism a lot and really just the danger,

00:25:07.600 danger of, uh, progressivism in the church is we're going to talk about this trend of egalitarianism

00:25:13.240 in the church. So would you guys just first break that down and tell us what that means?

00:25:17.520 Sure. Me or you, who's doing this? Um, you can do egalitarian. Okay. Fine. Tell us what that is.

00:25:26.460 Okay. So our, our whole thing, especially when we talk about feminism and feminism and egalitarian

00:25:32.540 typically do go hand in hand. You are much more likely to find an egalitarian calling herself a

00:25:40.440 feminist than a complementarian, for example. Um, and this is all I'm talking within the church.

00:25:46.700 Um, and so our whole thing with feminism actually directly relates to this, this issue is that

00:25:53.440 we don't believe that Christians need feminism because we already have the ultimate standard.

00:25:58.860 So when God says in Genesis 127, that he made man in his image, male and female, then we believe that

00:26:07.680 women are just as much made in the image of God as men are. And the ramifications of that are huge.

00:26:14.640 Um, that means that women are distinct, um, from men, but just as valuable. And so a lot of the

00:26:23.800 conversation between an egalitarian viewpoint and a complementarian viewpoint comes down to,

00:26:28.760 uh, essentially the egalitarian viewpoint says that women can function in the church the same way

00:26:34.760 that men do. Um, we believe that's not true for a lot of reasons. And I mean, we can go over the

00:26:41.620 list of verses if you want to. Um, but the reason that it's dangerous to translate, uh, our worldview

00:26:49.340 that way is that essentially you're saying that men and women, um, they're distinct, but have the same

00:26:55.640 roles. And we would not support that in any way because we have God in his own words in the first

00:27:03.720 chapter of Genesis making a, a distinction. Um, and then he goes on in the next couple of chapters

00:27:10.160 to make those distinctions, to explain how the fall is going to impact men and women differently.

00:27:14.960 And then, um, when Paul talks about this later in the new Testament, you have him talking about a,

00:27:21.160 a headship, um, that is rooted in that creation order. And so we can't understand men and men and

00:27:29.720 women as having the same roles. So a complementarian position says that men and women are separate.

00:27:37.520 Um, they're distinct from each other. Um, they're not the same. They don't have the same roles, but

00:27:42.940 they carry the same inherent value because it's rooted in the image of God. Um, then an egalitarian

00:27:49.700 viewpoint is going to say that the roles, um, they don't have to be separate and distinct and that to

00:27:55.900 deny a woman, a headship role is to say that she is not as valuable as a man. Right. There's definitely,

00:28:03.060 you can see some, um, idolatry over the, the headship position there. The idea is that intrinsically

00:28:11.400 the leader, the head is of more value than the person that is, um, submissive or, um, the helper.

00:28:20.420 And so that's sort of, um, this weird view on what constitutes, uh, worth in terms of men's and

00:28:28.800 women's roles. That's kind of like the gas that the, uh, egalitarian car runs on. Right. Right. I've

00:28:36.360 heard you guys talk about that before, that if you somehow perceive headship or leadership in the

00:28:44.080 church as, uh, as a position to be coveted as a woman and that by reaching that, that you will

00:28:51.520 achieve the same status or value as a man, then that's not because the Bible actually says that

00:28:58.300 it's because of your own worldly and human perception of what it actually means to be worthy

00:29:03.280 and valuable because the Bible doesn't actually say that the reason that men are put at the head of

00:29:09.920 the church is because, is because they're more valuable than women are or because God loves them

00:29:15.900 more. Um, that's just the way that God made it. And there's actually nothing in the Bible that says a

00:29:21.680 woman's position is less significant than a man's position or worse than a man's position or women

00:29:27.200 just aren't as smart as men. So they can't do that. It's just what God says. Why, why do you guys

00:29:33.000 think that it's so hard for us to just submit to what God has said is good in that regard?

00:29:40.240 Well, I mean, certainly Eve started it, but Adam, Adam did the same thing. You know,

00:29:48.660 essentially the question you're asking is a question of, of why do humans want to be autonomous?

00:29:52.900 And we've wanted to be autonomous since Eve's answer to the snake in the garden was, you know,

00:29:59.580 he said, did God really say? And she went, huh, great question. Um, and we've been questioning

00:30:05.740 God's standards ever since, and we've wanted our freedom ever since.

00:30:09.840 But it's definitely increased. It seems like it, if I feel like it used to kind of be a given that,

00:30:15.080 okay, this is man's position in the church. This is woman's position in the church. Maybe women

00:30:19.620 secretly bucked against that, but it's certainly, um, an increasing phenomenon that women are starting

00:30:25.040 to say, you know what? No, that's misogyny and bigotry. That's the patriarchy. I'm standing up

00:30:30.320 and I'm taking this position in the church. Why do you think that is? Um, I was just going to say,

00:30:35.780 I do think there was probably quite a shift, um, in terms of like when, when, um, the feminist

00:30:42.800 movement. So second, I'm going to go second wave and the sexual revolution sort of met. I think that

00:30:50.120 was a big moment where we started seeing, um, we started viewing traditional female roles as, um,

00:30:59.120 more sort of like, like the, the less worthy work. We started to see a woman, um, embracing those roles

00:31:08.520 as not meeting her full potential. And so I think there was, of course, just sort of this logical

00:31:15.640 progression to, of course, well, let's look, let's look and see, uh, where we can find, uh, women not

00:31:23.700 being allowed to meet their full potential and fully realize themselves as humans. And then, um,

00:31:30.800 instead of just embracing that those two roles are complimentary and made differently for a reason,

00:31:35.820 what we need to find is this equality so that women can, so that they'll no longer be subject to being

00:31:43.700 half of a human because they haven't been fully realized.

00:31:47.400 And I would blame, um, I'd be happy to put a lot of the blame on men. Um, and what I mean by that is that,

00:31:54.740 so, you know, the, the pattern that we see in scripture is that times when women became leaders, um,

00:32:01.280 were when the men weren't leading. And so a lot of egalitarians will point to Deborah, um, who led Israel for a

00:32:09.640 time and she was a great leader. Uh, why was Deborah leading? Well, we know from the text,

00:32:15.380 it's because the men weren't, the men, the men had abdicated their role. Um, and in the vacuum that

00:32:20.540 they created with their faithlessness, um, a strong woman stood up. And, uh, I think a lot of what we're

00:32:27.500 seeing in the church is that, uh, the pastors aren't stepping up to the pulpit. They aren't preaching

00:32:33.300 the word. Um, they're, you know, the, the, they're busy making themselves popular instead of being

00:32:39.420 faithful. Um, and I think that the pulpit has been such a, made such a vacuous space in America,

00:32:46.700 uh, that when the men aren't leading the, the women will. And so I really do see, um, a failure of,

00:32:55.040 of, of men to stand and lead and to shepherd their families. And I don't think you can divorce

00:33:02.980 the, um, the sexual revolution, like Joy mentioned at all, um, from the shift that we're seeing in our

00:33:08.780 culture and the culture is bleeding into the church. Um, you've got fatherlessness. I mean,

00:33:14.260 you've got divorce rates, you've got men abdicating their roles all over the place. And, um, when men

00:33:21.740 do that, I think that women are going to see that as a failure of men and the ways in which women might

00:33:29.220 be able to do it better. Um, I'm not defending that view at all, but I am saying that when a vacuum is

00:33:37.480 left, um, I think it's natural for the women to stand up. And so I think a lot of this is a real

00:33:42.920 failure of men to lead in a godly way. And I have to wonder too, if the Me Too movement has had

00:33:50.680 something to do with it, at least in recent months, although we know that egalitarianism and feminism

00:33:56.060 in the church has been kind of festering and growing for a while, but it seems like Me Too

00:34:00.740 has almost been used as an excuse, um, by the church to say, see, and even, you know, the SBC

00:34:07.240 and some of the problems recently that we've been seeing with that, with Paige Patterson.

00:34:11.020 I think that you see some women like Beth Moore, for example, saying, see, this is what happens when,

00:34:18.120 you know, toxic masculinity runs amok. And instead of like you guys said, the solution being,

00:34:24.440 okay, we need strong male leadership. We have people calling for female leadership. Um, I just

00:34:31.420 don't see why that needs to be the opposite. Why weak male leadership needs to necessarily lead to

00:34:38.320 strong female leadership when that's not what, that's not what the Bible offers as the, as the

00:34:42.740 solution. I do think that, um, that's definitely the calling card of us humans attempting to do things

00:34:52.680 in a way that makes sense to us. We, when you start to divorce yourself from scripture,

00:34:57.840 you will see people sort of getting together and meeting and figuring out, okay, so what is the best

00:35:04.500 way to tackle misogyny in the church? And instead of opening up the scripture, um, you are instead,

00:35:12.740 I think very obviously getting these groups of people that are getting together and they're discussing

00:35:17.620 the most practical, realistic way to tackle this. But unfortunately, when a bunch of humans get

00:35:25.660 together and it's devoid of scripture and they're making massive societal decisions or accusations

00:35:31.900 against society, I, I, it's pretty easy to see that what they've come up with is the best solution

00:35:39.540 that a finite human can come up with. Right. Which is, sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, no, that's fine.

00:35:47.860 Which is exactly just what I think about kind of social justice and progressivism in general is that

00:35:53.540 the heart might be in the right place. Like you said, misogyny in the church might be an issue and

00:36:01.100 it might be something that we need to tackle. These are problems that we need to overcome. And I in no way

00:36:07.260 even want to, I don't want to say the entirety of the Me Too movement is a bad thing. I don't think

00:36:12.500 that at all. Um, but like y'all said, we don't need secular standards for what biblical Christians

00:36:21.180 have already been doing for thousands and thousands of years. We've always been promoting, um, the

00:36:27.860 equality of worth of women. We have always been promoting charity and justice, at least true Christ

00:36:33.740 followers have. Um, so what do you guys think that the danger is in Christians latching on to these

00:36:40.040 worldly movements rather than, um, latching on to the truth of the gospel?

00:36:46.980 Well, I mean, obviously Me Too is devoid of the gospel. And the problem is with that is that

00:36:52.600 essentially if you're following the Me Too lead, then you are, uh, accepting the moral, the moral

00:36:57.740 leadership of people who will also suggest that you can kill your child in the womb. Um, they have

00:37:04.020 no moral authority. Uh, they have created a culture wherein sex is so divorced from any kind of

00:37:12.360 covenantal meaning. Um, that, I mean, why, why can't someone touch who they want? Because essentially

00:37:21.740 the message of our culture is that, uh, it's, uh, it's my body, my choice and your body, if it's in

00:37:28.480 the womb, uh, doesn't matter. And, and whatever they want, you want to do to that is fine. Um,

00:37:33.880 they have no, they have no just standard by which to say when sex is right or wrong, except based on

00:37:41.320 consent. And this is going to eat itself because we've already seen cases where, um, basically any

00:37:48.420 accusation can be made, uh, that anybody wants to make. And it doesn't have to be verified. If

00:37:53.940 somebody makes an accusation, then you're guilty. And this is a sign of a very unjust society. Um,

00:38:00.560 and they have no standard by which to say any kind of sexual interaction, uh, can happen lawfully at

00:38:06.960 all. Um, and so essentially, and, and, and not just that, that's, that's its own, that's its own

00:38:12.860 topic. Uh, my biggest problem with Christians latching onto the Me Too movement is that

00:38:18.100 it's devoid of any kind of hope. Um, so a lot of Christians experience sexual abuse and I don't

00:38:26.040 know that just saying, Hey, Me Too, um, is the answer because we've been given hope in scripture

00:38:31.580 that, that can't be killed. And so if we're going to say Me Too, then it has to come with,

00:38:36.540 you know, Me Too, but God, um, look who God says I am. As someone who's been abused, God has,

00:38:42.840 God has washed me clean. God says I am not guilty. Um, God says I am redeemed. And the gospel really

00:38:50.320 removes the, the shame and the horror that comes along with sexual abuse. And the world isn't

00:38:56.640 offering any of that. They're essentially handing you a pitchfork and telling you it's going to make

00:39:01.080 you feel better. Um, but pitchforks aren't going to make you feel better. And, um, it's only through

00:39:07.000 the gospel that can, we, we can even understand why abuse is so horrible in the first place. I mean,

00:39:13.380 I don't believe that anyone hates abuse more than God does. And so abandoning his standard of how to

00:39:19.360 deal with abuse and, and view abuse and what qualifies as abuse and, um, sexual ethics,

00:39:25.620 all of these things, they have to come from God or they're utterly, um, they're utterly meaningless.

00:39:30.620 Right. And I think that's kind of my problem with feminism in general is that intersectionality is

00:39:38.060 that it stops at victimhood instead of actually talking about the solutions to your victimhood

00:39:44.000 or the solutions to your oppression or any lasting solutions. It stops at victimhood. And we are not

00:39:50.180 just stopping at victimhood, but you're defined by your victimhood and your victimhood should,

00:39:55.460 should determine every political and cultural and even spiritual choice that you make. It's your

00:40:01.520 entire identity. And that's also why I have a hard time reconciling anyone who says that they are also

00:40:07.900 a feminist and a Christian, because I'm like, well, where does your identity actually lie? Does it lie

00:40:12.720 in your victimhood and your oppression and the fact that you feel unequal or does it lie in who God says

00:40:17.780 that you are? Um, so, but I, you know, I have a lot of friends who say that they're Christian feminists

00:40:23.240 and I don't know, it's, it's, it's hard for, it's, it's really hard for me to reconcile that.

00:40:30.320 Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about what feminism, when you say feminism, what do you think

00:40:36.660 of? I mean, none of the things that you're going to think of first and foremost are really biblical

00:40:40.180 things. Now, if you're a Christian feminist and you're saying, well, I'm a feminist because,

00:40:45.240 you know, I believe that women are valuable. Well, that's actually, you believe that if you're a

00:40:49.960 Christian who believes that you believe that women are valuable because you believe in the word of

00:40:53.180 God and you don't need this secular theory to come in and bolster what God has already, um, said about

00:40:59.300 you. And then when you think about, um, just all the things that the, the feminist movement stands

00:41:05.120 for, you know, I had someone message me today and say, well, you know, not all feminists are pro-choice.

00:41:10.220 Well, that's true. But for the feminists that aren't pro-choice, what are they even basing that on?

00:41:15.560 Um, I just, it all goes back to what's your foundation? What's your standard? Um, why are

00:41:22.940 you usurping? You can't redeem feminism. There's no reason to, you don't need it. Um, so why,

00:41:28.920 why even try? Would you argue that first wave feminists were necessary? The women who were like,

00:41:37.660 hey, we need a right to vote. Uh, okay. So I have, I think we both have different, um,

00:41:47.560 not necessarily different stances, but just, I have a few different issues with the first wave

00:41:51.880 of feminists. Uh, and so my first issue is that I think a lot of, we've whitewashed the first wave

00:41:59.400 and we've tried to say, oh no, they were all Christians and dah, dah, dah. But I mean,

00:42:03.700 the first thing you got to realize is that most people, um, at the turn of this, the last century

00:42:08.220 went to church. Um, so, okay. When you actually start reading what they were saying, um, some of

00:42:14.540 the most prominent feminists were rabidly against marriage and they considered, they considered

00:42:19.740 getting married. Yes. They considered getting married, um, this horrible, horrible thing.

00:42:25.920 Right. Um, but then also, you know, we could stand with them because they worked,

00:42:30.580 the first wave of feminists were, um, huge in drafting legislation that ended slavery. So,

00:42:36.080 I mean, great. Like I would like to, I would have liked to be a part of that if I was around then.

00:42:42.180 Um, so that's a good thing. Um, so it's the movement then I don't think I would have been a

00:42:48.220 part of as a whole. Um, I for sure they had some causes that I agreed with. Um, but I know Joy and I

00:42:54.780 both have a very unpopular opinion. Um, and that is that we, uh, we like how the original voting was

00:43:03.460 set up and that there was one vote per household. Um, and I know a lot of people are like, what in

00:43:09.300 the world? Um, but yeah. And it went to property owners, like landowners. Yeah. So, um, so you guys,

00:43:16.140 would you guys refuel the 19th amendment if you could? No, no, I wouldn't. Um, also I think it's

00:43:23.740 like, I, it would be worth mentioning that like, I'm not a landowner. Right. And I don't have a

00:43:31.400 husband, husband. So like, I would be renouncing your own right, my own right to vote. And so,

00:43:37.580 I mean, that's like almost just, this topic is like almost a show in and of itself. I think what

00:43:43.640 we're saying is, so I would definitely want some changes to the household vote because I would

00:43:48.460 consider Joy the head of her household. Right. She's single, but she is the head of her own

00:43:53.780 household. And I think she should be able to vote. Um, I did, I liked that originally it was a household

00:44:00.660 vote. Um, meaning that obviously the man went and voted cause it was a civic duty and whatever. I

00:44:07.080 don't really care about all that, but, um, I just agree that it should have been a household vote.

00:44:11.500 And people have asked us about that and been like, well, what if the husband is, you know,

00:44:14.680 a Democrat and the, the wife is a Republican. And I think that's a horrible misunderstanding of

00:44:19.260 just, uh, how monopolized the two parties are in our current system. Like it hasn't always been

00:44:25.320 this black and white. Well, what if someone's a Republican in the house and what if someone's a

00:44:28.980 Democrat in the house? Um, I'm much more interested in, are the husband and wife unified?

00:44:33.700 Right. Um, that just shows just sort of this intrinsic,

00:44:36.860 uh, miscommunication about how the roles between a married male and female would even work.

00:44:44.260 Right. And I do think that the first wave feminists, I think it's safe to say that they

00:44:48.560 saw the behavior that led to the sexual revolution and second wave feminism, which was, I would

00:44:56.100 say that the area that the time period directly before, uh, the sexual revolution, I don't think

00:45:04.100 they had a closer to a traditional view of women's roles, but I still think they got it wrong by

00:45:11.360 painting them as, um, little cute homemakers that were so excited about their microwave and,

00:45:17.660 right. And had a drink ready for their husband when they got home. Right. There's a lot of wrong

00:45:21.760 with that. Right. Which could have very easily led to the second wave, but I don't know, just worth

00:45:27.400 mentioning. Okay. I'm very interested in this because I have not heard you guys talk about

00:45:31.960 the, the whole voting thing. So I have a hypothetical question for you. So if you believe

00:45:37.420 that, and I, I, I don't know, I don't really know if I agree with you or not. I just haven't decided

00:45:42.440 yet. I'm just wondering if you believe that it was better for the head of the household. And like

00:45:50.640 you said, summer man or woman head of the house household, whoever owns the property to go and vote

00:45:55.760 most of the time that would have been the husband. It probably, maybe most of the time would still be

00:45:59.360 the husband today. Then do you think that today married couples that a wife should vote in line

00:46:06.780 with what her husband says? Because theoretically that would be the same thing. If, if that's why

00:46:13.460 you believed that back then you should go with what your husband votes. Do you believe that today,

00:46:17.900 even though I have the right to vote that I should vote with what my husband tells me to vote?

00:46:21.660 Um, okay. So that could go into a couple of different areas. My first knee jerk reaction

00:46:27.620 is to say, um, that if a woman and a, if a man and a wife had differing opinions on who they wanted

00:46:35.380 to vote for, um, and the woman had to go with his candidate, I feel like, um, that could be an area

00:46:44.560 of potentially lying. Um, cause a vote is saying, this is the person that I, you know, want to be

00:46:51.220 here. And if you're being coerced into your vote, that's, that's a, that's a sticky area. I don't

00:46:56.740 like. Um, and I think that ideally you're not going to have a husband who, um, forces you to vote a

00:47:03.860 certain way.

00:47:04.520 Well, and that's what I mean. Like it, it, it does kind of like even using words like coerce and

00:47:09.320 force that indicates that there's no, there's no just like peaceful relationship. Yeah. And I

00:47:15.020 didn't say those, I didn't say those words. Oh yeah. No, no, no, no. I know. But I think,

00:47:19.380 I do think we like all of us have these little things that we still kind of, you know, we think

00:47:27.480 of things in a certain way. I mean, if he's demanding that she vote a certain way, I'm not talking about

00:47:33.480 demanding. I'm talking about say in a peaceable relationship, a godly relationship, husband,

00:47:39.720 wife, do you think that it's important for the wife to vote the same way as her husband? If you

00:47:46.480 thought it was better that the head of the household was representative of the whole house,

00:47:49.720 do you think it's better now that a wife says, you know what? I don't totally agree with him,

00:47:54.440 but at the end of the day, I trust him and I'm going to vote for who he says I should vote for.

00:47:57.840 Okay. I think if she was unsure and like, I think that there would, it would have to be preceded by

00:48:04.580 like a discussion of some kind. And I, I don't think it would be appropriate to

00:48:09.200 just be like, well, this is who you're voting for. Get used to it. But, um, but obviously there's

00:48:16.320 some, like, it would be sort of like a case by case thing. But I, I do think that, um, it makes sense

00:48:22.560 in terms of a solid complementarian marriage that they would, they would most likely come to an

00:48:32.960 agreement and have a similar outcome on who to vote for. Does that make sense? Like, I acknowledge

00:48:40.260 that there, there could be situations in which the husband would just be like, well, this is who we're

00:48:45.440 voting for. Um, but that's an interesting way to put it. I hadn't necessarily thought it's a weird,

00:48:52.080 it's a weird hypothetical. This is fun. Um, I think that to, so if, if it was a situation where

00:48:59.320 it was a single household vote, I would have no problem because I trust my husband, I would have

00:49:04.220 no problem. If we disagreed, I would expect him to want to get me on the same page and want to be

00:49:10.980 unified. And I think that because I trust my husband so much that I probably wouldn't honestly

00:49:16.580 care that much. Um, if it was the kind of thing where we both are, you know, both of us can vote.

00:49:23.120 Um, I don't think that a godly husband is going to throw a fit if you guys have a difference of

00:49:28.780 opinion on this. Um, and I, I just, that's kind of what I'm banking on and that's why choosing

00:49:34.840 who to marry is so important. Um, I just don't see this becoming a, a divisive issue. And if it is,

00:49:42.980 I think there's some other sin issues that have preceded it that should be dealt with first.

00:49:47.180 Agreed. Um, I just, I think it's possible for a man and a woman to vote in two different ways and

00:49:52.900 still, you know, be aligned with the gospel. Now it depends, of course, on certain issues like

00:49:59.420 abortion, it would be very difficult for, to understand how my husband is reading the same

00:50:05.000 gospel or the same Bible that I am. But of course, like for example, my husband wasn't a really big

00:50:10.320 fan of Donald Trump. I mean, I was neither, but I was like, right. I'm going to vote for the guy.

00:50:14.920 He wasn't very excited about voting for him, but at the end of the day, like we're unified. So

00:50:19.440 right. I, and I think that's totally fine. I personally am very thankful for the 19th amendment.

00:50:25.340 I'm very thankful that I have the right to vote. So the question I'm trying to get to,

00:50:31.420 I'm trying to understand like if back then it was better, it was better that it was just the

00:50:38.960 head of the household that was voting. Why wouldn't you guys right now willingly say, you know what,

00:50:47.000 I'm not even going, I don't even care what the candidate is. I'm just going to vote for whoever

00:50:51.520 my husband votes for it. Because if it was good in theory back then, why isn't it good in theory

00:50:56.140 right now? Except for, I don't, I don't think that that's how it was back then. I think that still

00:51:00.400 the household vote would have taken place like within the context of a conversation in a very

00:51:05.940 like communal way. So I would say I, I, I wouldn't necessarily, I, I wouldn't think it would be

00:51:14.180 better for the husband to just say, and this is who we're voting for. Um, but I would vote differently

00:51:20.920 than your husband today. I would, I, I, I don't have a husband. Um, but I, I just for practical

00:51:31.520 reasons, I don't see a reason why I would marry someone that I most likely wouldn't vote the same

00:51:37.880 as, but if I really had a conviction, um, and there was some sort of, you know, if I wanted to

00:51:44.660 vote for someone else, I would at least hope we'd be able to talk about it. Yeah. And just to be

00:51:50.480 clear, we're not saying we want to repeal the 19th amendment. What we're saying is I think we,

00:51:55.580 I think as, as people living in 2018, um, what we're talking about is so hard to understand

00:52:01.840 because the family was such a bedrock, I mean, foundation of the society that you didn't even

00:52:10.240 understand your relationship to the outside world outside of your family. So the found,

00:52:15.800 the family was the foundation of all of civic duty. Um, and so what we're saying is that that

00:52:21.800 wasn't such a bad idea. Um, it wasn't such a bad idea that we voted as mischaracterized

00:52:27.300 now. Yeah. Right. That's the big reason why we commented on it. I think is that it, the whole,

00:52:33.900 the whole purpose and context of the 19th amendment is really painted in a way that's not exactly true

00:52:40.060 now. Right. So it was kind of described as like, well, women are so oppressed and this and that,

00:52:44.500 and they don't have the, they don't have the right to vote. But what we're trying to point out was,

00:52:48.620 was that it was originally written as a household vote because that's how all of civic life was

00:52:54.120 understood. It was centered on the family. Right. And so that was really the only reason why we ever

00:52:59.480 brought it up. And, and I don't think it's such a horrible thing that civic life, the foundation of

00:53:04.620 that was the nuclear family. And I think that we've lost a lot since we have seen the disintegration of

00:53:09.960 our families. And so, like I said, I, I'm glad that we have the 19th amendment. I'm glad that I

00:53:15.660 can vote. I'm glad that joy is the head of her household, even as a woman, like she's viewed that

00:53:20.440 way. These things are great. And goodness, I don't know what I'd be doing. Right. What would she be

00:53:24.540 doing? I guess I would just stay home. I just wanted to, I wanted to push back on that to see if we

00:53:32.120 could get to a better understanding of what that means, because I do think that there's such a give and

00:53:37.220 take when it comes to individualism. And that's certainly where our society has gone into, I think,

00:53:42.960 a dangerous territory of over-individualization to where everyone is so isolated. My entire moral

00:53:50.000 compass, my truth is completely subjective based on what I believe. We don't believe in institutions.

00:53:55.720 We don't believe in objective morality. We don't believe in the value of the family.

00:53:59.740 And I, so I completely agree with you that I think that's part of also why egalitarianism is on the

00:54:05.640 rise because we all believe that we are all these little islands and we're not really connected to

00:54:10.900 any kind of, um, to any kind of bigger picture. Right. Right. We don't want to be complimentary to any,

00:54:17.800 we don't want to pair well with anyone. We want to be our own separate thing. Yes. Yeah, exactly. What do

00:54:24.380 you guys think is the solution for women who are in the church, who are, you know, biblical,

00:54:33.380 complementarian, and we don't want to see the church go into this progressive social justice,

00:54:38.640 feminist direction? Um, I mean, what do we do? What do we do to fight the rising tide of egalitarianism?

00:54:48.000 Yes. Um, oh my. So I think the first thing that women in particular need to do is we really need

00:54:55.240 to understand that the role that God gave us is transformative to culture. And so I think a lot

00:55:01.440 of what's happening with the me too movement and the rise of egalitarianism is that we're,

00:55:06.860 we've been sold the idea that women behaving as men makes women better. And that's actually just not

00:55:15.080 the case. So when we fulfill the roles that we've been designed to fill, that is the best possible

00:55:21.620 thing that we can do. And so first and foremost, a woman's role, a Christian woman's role is to be like

00:55:27.820 Jesus. Um, and that's the same as a man's role, but it is the foundation of what, what we're both

00:55:32.440 called to. Um, and we need to not forget that Jesus submitted to the father's will. And that,

00:55:39.080 um, also just like Jesus, God will use women to take what would be useless on its own and shape it

00:55:45.540 into glory. And, um, you don't have to see that only in your role in the home, although the role in

00:55:52.900 your home is very important. Um, and so I think that a lot of what we're missing is that the role

00:56:02.020 that God gave women was beautiful. And just because there's a submission aspect to it doesn't make it

00:56:07.740 lesser. And essentially, if you, if you start to believe that lie, um, the lie that submission might

00:56:14.120 make you mean less, um, then essentially you are spitting on Jesus's submission, uh, to the will of

00:56:22.940 the father. Um, and what a horrible place to be in, what a horrible thing for you to have to answer to

00:56:29.100 at some point. And so, um, we have to believe that what Jesus says is best and what Jesus always says

00:56:36.220 is best. Um, and the order of creation and the order of the fall provides the reason that women are

00:56:41.820 not supposed to exercise authority over men in the church. Um, from the beginning, God has intended

00:56:46.400 that men are the leaders of the home and in the church. And this is not a slight to women. Um,

00:56:53.000 and it's God's wisdom commanding what is best for his people and his world. And we need to start

00:56:58.140 believing that. Right. Right. Joy, do you have anything to add? I don't want to accidentally talk

00:57:04.960 over you. Oh, no, no, you're fine. Um, I do think that it, uh, you know, so the moments that we

00:57:14.840 are given an opportunity to be obedient, um, even though they're not broadcast for the world to see,

00:57:23.080 they're very meaningful. Uh, the reason why we're here is to glorify God and to enjoy him,

00:57:29.640 um, and to be obedient. And so, um, the moments where you, uh, fight your sinful nature,

00:57:40.400 they're very meaningful. They may not be highly publicized, but they're very meaningful. Um,

00:57:47.660 and, uh, obedience to God, especially when we don't want to be obedient or when it goes against

00:57:56.300 sort of our sinful nature or even like the, uh, philosophy of the, the day. Um, those are the

00:58:03.880 moments where we find real, uh, true intimacy and hope, and a lot of times even healing. And

00:58:11.640 I just think that's incredibly important. Right. Right. And I, you can't go away from God's design

00:58:21.160 in one part and expect the rest of his design to fall the way that it's supposed to, which is

00:58:28.720 exactly what we've seen with progressivism. And you guys pointed this out with feminism too. It's

00:58:34.300 like you give up one part of feminism, like being, uh, not being pro-choice and being pro-life.

00:58:39.700 And then they would tell you, well, all of feminism unravels then, which is exactly why it's best that

00:58:45.780 we just stay with God's design and everything. Yes, absolutely. Um, well you guys, y'all are the

00:58:53.720 best. I love your podcast. I'm sure that a lot of people who listen to this podcast also listen to

00:58:59.480 your podcast. And so maybe they'll get both of us in one day. Lucky them. Oh my. Um, so thank you guys

00:59:09.000 so much. I really appreciate it. Okay, guys. I hope that you enjoyed that. They're great. If you

00:59:15.980 have questions for them, you can email me or you can go to their podcast and ask them whatever you

00:59:20.920 want to do. Okay. I am going to answer one Bible question, say one thing I don't get, and then close

00:59:27.300 this out with something special. Those of you who watch my Instagram stories, which I'm not going to lie,

00:59:33.100 I highly recommend. You guys will recognize what I'm about to do. Um, okay. All kinds of fun stuff.

00:59:41.560 I got this question on Instagram, which is where I get most of my questions for this podcast.

00:59:47.480 Do you believe in infant baptisms? And the answer is no, I do not. And the answer is because,

00:59:54.360 and the answer for why is because I don't think it's biblical. Baptism is always associated with and

00:59:59.160 followed by belief and repentance in the Bible, except for, I guess, when Jesus was baptized by

01:00:03.320 John the Baptist, because he didn't have anything to repent of, um, Matthew three, six, and they were

01:00:08.000 baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. Mark 16, 16, whoever believes in his

01:00:13.800 baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. The exhortation in acts two 38 is

01:00:19.520 to repent and be baptized. Um, acts two 41. So those who received his word were baptized and there were

01:00:25.800 added that day about 3000 souls. The great commission itself, Matthew 28, 19 says, go therefore and make

01:00:32.460 disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit. Um, babies

01:00:38.160 don't repent. They don't believe therefore their baptism as babies means absolutely nothing. Um, if you

01:00:45.200 were baptized as a baby, but like it's fine. I don't think that you're condemned at all for that. And I'm sure I

01:00:52.680 think a lot of people probably do it for dedication purposes, not for salvation purposes, um, in the

01:00:59.560 church, which, okay, it's just not in the Bible. If I've missed that, please feel free to email me and

01:01:08.040 tell me why, but unless I can find a reason for it in the Bible, I, I just think it's silly, especially

01:01:14.840 when people ascribe salvation properties to it. It doesn't have that at all. Sorry. There's my take on

01:01:22.340 that. Not sorry. I'm actually not sorry. I don't know why I said sorry. I'm not anyway. Um, thing I

01:01:28.800 just don't get. Okay. Again, please don't be offended by this. It's, it's fine if you do this. I don't,

01:01:37.540 I truly don't just like, don't understand the liking of your own tweets or, um, Instagram posts. See,

01:01:50.520 I've seen people that do this and maybe this is weird on my own part, but so I think it's like,

01:01:56.440 usually when people get a certain amount of, um, likes, they will go ahead and like it because

01:02:02.980 then they think that people can't see it. But actually when you go on Instagram, it's like,

01:02:07.820 you know, it says the first few people that, that like it, like, it's like, Oh, so-and-so and so-and-so

01:02:12.980 like this. Well, if you follow a particular person, that's typically the name that shows up that this

01:02:18.580 person liked this. So if I follow you and you liked your own post, I can see that you liked

01:02:23.040 your own post. And I personally just don't understand. Like, does it, do you, is it better

01:02:29.140 to have like that one more like, because what if people see that? I don't know. Like one time I

01:02:35.040 accidentally liked my own post and I didn't realize it until like five minutes later. And I wanted to

01:02:41.280 cry thinking about people knowing that I liked my own post and especially tweets. Like I can definitely

01:02:46.520 see if you like your own tweet, you just go to the little like button on someone's profile and you

01:02:50.860 can see it. So I don't know, just, just if someone enlightened me, maybe there's like a really good

01:02:56.860 reason. And I just don't know. So feel free to let me know. That's just something I don't get.

01:03:03.540 Okay. Love y'all. See y'all next week. Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 27, 2018

Ep 16 ｜ Christian Egalitarianism with the Sheologians

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