Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 176 ｜ Jeremy Vuolo

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. I am so excited about today's conversation that

00:00:05.820 we're going to have. It's Jeremy Volo. You might know him. He is an own person in his own right.

00:00:11.800 You might know him as Ginger, formerly Duggar's husband. He used to be a pastor. He's now in

00:00:18.420 seminary and he has been on the show Counting On, which of course is the continuation of the

00:00:25.340 Duggar's original show. And he is just awesome. And I'm so excited for you to hear the conversation

00:00:30.900 that we are going to have. So without further ado, here's Jeremy. Jeremy, thank you so much for

00:00:35.800 joining me. Oh, it's my pleasure. So for those who don't know, tell us who you are and what you do.

00:00:43.920 Yeah. So my name is Jeremy Volo. I am, what do I do? Well, I'm a Christian and currently I'm

00:00:50.980 attending the master's seminary in Los Angeles, California, where Pastor John MacArthur,

00:00:56.320 it's the seminary that he began with Grace Community Church. My wife, Ginger, formerly Ginger

00:01:02.520 Duggar, and I were living in Texas for the last couple of years. I was there for about six years.

00:01:08.280 She was there since we've been married since 2016. And we have a little daughter, 15-month-old Felicity,

00:01:15.360 and just made the move out to the West Coast in June and are really enjoying exploring the city and

00:01:21.600 kind of settling down here. And yeah, just beginning life, life together in a new place.

00:01:27.660 Cool. I have so many questions about everything you just said. My first question is,

00:01:31.460 how did you meet Ginger, formerly Duggar? Because probably everyone that is listening to this knows

00:01:38.540 exactly who that is. And I bet they're very interested to hear the story.

00:01:41.600 Yeah. So, well, it's an interesting story, actually. There's a bit of mystery to it.

00:01:47.280 There's, so Ben Seawald, who's my brother-in-law, years ago, even before he met the family and was

00:01:55.300 interested in Jessa, had a friend on Facebook who was, I think everybody has one of these guys who's

00:02:01.760 like an elusive character who, your friends, you might chat here and there. And as Christians,

00:02:06.580 they would like encourage each other with scripture and things, but didn't know each other. And this

00:02:12.120 guy, his name was Matt, was the kind of guy who never had a profile picture of himself. It was

00:02:17.500 always like a cross or something like that. Yeah. Everyone has like a few of those friends

00:02:21.960 from college. They're always Christians too. They've always got like the picture of like a cliff or a 1.00

00:02:27.260 mountain or the cross on the side of a, like a precipice or something. I totally know what you're

00:02:31.660 talking about. Oh yeah. So Ben has this buddy for years on Facebook and that guy actually was a

00:02:38.080 friend of mine, attended the church I went to in San Antonio, Texas. And so Ben and Jessa just happened

00:02:44.420 to be in San Antonio with like three hours to kill. And so Ben contacts the guy and says, Hey, we're just

00:02:48.860 hanging out here. We'd love to meet up. So long story short, they end up coming to my house. There was

00:02:55.400 a church fellowship. It was a Sunday night and they were having it at my house. I at the time was

00:02:59.780 preaching in Laredo. So I was coming back and showed up in my house, maybe nine o'clock at night

00:03:04.740 and there's Ben and Jessa. And, uh, I just started chatting with Ben. I didn't really watch the show.

00:03:09.580 I'd seen the show, but I wasn't like terribly familiar, but I started talking to Ben. We just

00:03:15.700 hit it off, exchanged, you know, digits and thought about keeping in touch. You know, here's a good

00:03:20.720 brother in Christ who we can, you know, encourage each other. Um, and so we just kind of built a

00:03:26.000 friendship and then I ended up visiting Ben and Jessa when they were actually in Dallas

00:03:31.020 and, uh, the whole family was with them. And so then I got introduced to the family and from there

00:03:36.260 just became really good friends with more than just Ben and Jessa, but with others in the family

00:03:39.660 as well. So my, that was, that was the first time I met Ginger through, through meeting Ben and Jessa.

00:03:44.400 Oh my gosh, that's kind of a crazy story.

00:03:46.840 It is. And I could go into like all the details. What was, what was wild was, um,

00:03:51.020 that friend, Matt, Matt, who kind of connected us, Ben, Jessa and Ginger did not meet him and see

00:03:57.880 what he looked like until after we were married. It was like six months later, we went to a wedding

00:04:01.680 and he was there. That's so crazy. Yeah. That's so crazy. So you two just kind of hit it off and

00:04:06.660 started dating and then you dated for a few months before you got engaged and then got married, right?

00:04:14.140 Yeah. So we knew each other about a year plus a few months before we started dating. And then

00:04:20.500 I honestly, I, I knew that she was, she was the one. Yeah. And apparently she knew as well. So

00:04:28.580 once we started our relationship, it really didn't take, take long. Um, I can totally relate to that.

00:04:36.280 Go ahead. What were you saying? Yeah. I mean, no, the, the interesting thing was

00:04:39.200 in the time before we were formally in a relationship, I, as her friend, I was able to see her walk through

00:04:46.740 some very challenging times in her life and just seeing how she dealt with that. I mean,

00:04:52.320 the true measure of a person really is when they're in difficulty in trial, which is why trials are

00:04:56.840 necessary, why the Lord uses them. But, um, just to see the stability and her love for the Lord and

00:05:03.620 her groundedness before we were formally in a relationship was just stunning to me. So I knew

00:05:09.180 the measure of this woman. Uh, so it didn't take long when we, when we actually started our relationship.

00:05:14.100 Yeah. And now y'all are parents. You said that your daughter Felicity is 15 months. So what has

00:05:19.520 that been like? It's obviously a really big adjustment to get married, but it's an even bigger

00:05:23.800 and more sanctifying adjustment, I think, in my experience to become a parent. So what are some

00:05:28.780 of the things that you guys have learned over the past a year and a year or so?

00:05:34.680 Yeah. It's been what, 15 months now. I, I, I think, um, a lot of people, um, it's funny and I know

00:05:41.300 you've probably received the same people tell you what you should expect. And then often reality is

00:05:46.300 like nothing like that. Um, Felicity has just been a joy and we, we gave her the right name

00:05:53.140 because Felicity means supreme happiness. And the girl wakes up clapping and smiling.

00:05:59.660 That's so sweet.

00:06:00.940 Unbelievable. So yeah, it's, it's really just been sweet. It's brought, it's brought us together,

00:06:05.680 Ginger and myself. And, um, we've just been enjoying this season. Obviously, um, initially

00:06:12.580 a lot of less, a lot less sleep. Um, you, you have this little person that you're, you're,

00:06:18.580 you're having to care for, but we just kind of assumed it. It just, it just becomes natural.

00:06:23.200 You don't think, Oh, now I have to take care of another person. It's just what you do.

00:06:26.740 Yeah.

00:06:27.660 So this is just our life now and we love it.

00:06:29.700 I think that's what people underestimate when you're thinking about parenthood. Yes,

00:06:34.120 it's true. You have no idea what you're doing. Even if you read all of the books and you take

00:06:38.280 all the advice from your parents and everyone else, you know, that has kids. Yes, of course,

00:06:43.320 it's hard. And there are those moments when you're like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to do in this

00:06:47.540 situation. Who do I call? But for the most part, I always tell people who are pregnant, who are scared, 0.85

00:06:52.640 who are nervous, that it really does come naturally that God equips you, that you are made for this.

00:06:59.580 If you are to become a parent and that God gives you the strength to do it. And I'm thinking

00:07:04.000 about all the times that I thought that I was tired before I had a child. I'm like, Oh,

00:07:08.060 I only got nine hours of sleep last night. I'm so tired. I didn't even know what it meant to be

00:07:13.520 tired. And I get so much less sleep now. And yet you just do it. Like you just do it. Somehow you

00:07:19.800 have the energy and somehow you function on three hours of sleep and you're still able to get that

00:07:26.800 child out of bed in the morning and love them. Even, you know, just as much, if not more than you did

00:07:31.740 the day before, even though they've completely worn you out, it really is the most natural and

00:07:36.320 wonderful thing in the world. Yeah, it's remarkable. I was nervous,

00:07:39.960 Ali, about like, am I going to have the right reaction? Am I going to be able to take care of 0.96

00:07:44.780 her? And, and the, the paternal instincts just come out. Yeah. I mean, immediately you're just

00:07:50.340 protective and you care for, and you just automatically do things. I surprised myself with that. And yeah,

00:07:55.340 but it's, it was a nice surprise. And I think Ginger too. Um, so it's been a really sweet,

00:08:01.280 wonderful season. So tell me about being a pastor. You're a pastor in Laredo, Texas,

00:08:08.000 and now you have transitioned to LA, right outside of LA? Yep. Yeah. It's, it's in the LA area. Okay.

00:08:16.080 At, um, at seminary, master's seminary. So tell me about that transition,

00:08:20.440 kind of why you made that move and what you've been learning in the process.

00:08:25.180 Yeah. So it was a very interesting timing for this move. Um, I was pastoring on the border of

00:08:31.600 Mexico and Texas, which is a very unique place to pastor. Um, if you're not from Laredo and you're

00:08:37.580 an American, when you go there, you think, wow, this is Mexico. Yeah. If you're Mexican and you come 1.00

00:08:43.380 to Laredo, you think, wow, this is America. Um, it's got this very interesting border town feel.

00:08:48.680 Yeah. Um, 96.5% Hispanic, um, wonderful, wonderful culture, love the people, love the food,

00:08:57.640 love, love being there. Um, and everything in the ministry was going wonderfully well. I mean,

00:09:04.120 we, we saw the conversion of, of gang leaders, um, which was just remarkable story to see. Um,

00:09:13.260 we saw, we saw different people coming to faith. We saw young people, we saw older,

00:09:17.460 more mature believers joining the church. Um, we just planted a church. It's just celebrated a year

00:09:23.460 of existence, uh, this summer in Nuevo Laredo across the border in Mexico, which is, you know,

00:09:29.940 a very heavily cartel populated spot. Um, we, one of the really interesting things was we, we were able

00:09:39.080 to acquire a building, which was just this beautiful, phenomenal building in the heart of Laredo,

00:09:44.740 um, almost practically gifted to us. Um, so it was exciting. Everything in Laredo was exciting. It

00:09:52.980 wasn't like, ah, ministry's a drag, you know? Yeah. And so God places on my heart, on Ginger's heart,

00:10:00.760 a desire to come to LA to go to the master's seminary. And it was very peculiar timing.

00:10:06.120 We kind of were scratching our heads going, wait, now God would have us go at this season when

00:10:11.580 everything's going so well. But as we prayed, we took a lot of counsel. We prayed for many months.

00:10:17.880 Um, God just increasingly made it clear that he had me in, in Laredo for a season. I was there for

00:10:23.900 four and a half years as a pastor and, and my time there was done. He was moving me on. And so, um,

00:10:30.880 once that was clear, Ginger and I, um, after taking a lot of counsel and prayer,

00:10:34.600 made the decision and, and moved out here and, and it was, there was a lot of factors. Um,

00:10:42.740 the master's seminary, in my opinion, is the preeminent, uh, evangelical reform seminary in,

00:10:49.280 in the country. Um, I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on that. Um, but I am biased,

00:10:54.160 but over the last several years, we've just built a lot of friendships, relationships with the pastors,

00:10:59.260 with the families here. And just from the, the theological commitments of the master's seminary,

00:11:06.180 there's a robust commitment to the sufficiency of scripture. Um, and I think that's, if you talk

00:11:14.040 about the issue today, whether it's, whether it's politics, whether it's personal, whether it's,

00:11:19.700 it's life in the church, ecclesiastical, the issue is the sufficiency of scripture.

00:11:25.300 Right. And the master's seminary is unequivocally, uh, committed to the sufficiency of God's word.

00:11:32.900 And so for me, there was really no other option if I was going to pursue theological training.

00:11:37.920 So when God opened that door, um, as one man said, you know, God opens doors at different times.

00:11:44.320 And then sometimes God just jack kicks the door off the handles or off the hinges and it's,

00:11:50.160 it's explicit walk through this door. And that's how it was for us. So.

00:11:53.600 Yeah. Uh, you talk about the sufficiency of scripture and I completely agree with you. That

00:11:58.700 is the central issue that we're dealing with today as Christians. So much of our arguing while it might

00:12:04.760 not be on the surface about the sufficiency of scripture, whether it's about the definition of

00:12:09.420 marriage or women's roles in the church, uh, we might be arguing about those topics, but at the end

00:12:15.160 of the day, it comes back to typically the majority of the time, do you believe in the sufficiency

00:12:20.780 and the inerrancy of scripture, or do you believe that it's kind of this evolving document that,

00:12:28.800 uh, is malleable depending on what the culture says? And so you're absolutely right. Unfortunately,

00:12:34.280 I think that a lot of people, especially a lot of young people, it seems people around our age,

00:12:39.080 um, disagree with, with us on that. There was this Barna study. I think it was at the beginning of

00:12:45.580 the year. They, every two years, they do a study to kind of test evangelical Christians or ask them

00:12:50.660 questions about sin, Jesus, salvation, and what they think the Bible says about these things.

00:12:55.940 I don't know if you saw that study, but it was stunning just how, for lack of a better word, 0.98

00:13:00.380 I don't mean to be rude, but ignorant evangelical Christians are people who claim to be evangelical 0.98

00:13:05.100 Christians are, uh, are about theology. It's really, really frightening. And I don't think that 0.99

00:13:11.240 you have to go to seminary in order to be able to read the Bible and at least be able to see, okay,

00:13:16.600 uh, the things that a lot of young Christians believe just don't line up with scripture.

00:13:20.540 How do you think we got there? And is there a way that we can kind of dig ourselves out of it without

00:13:26.760 everyone, you know, necessarily going to master seminary if that's not what God calls them to do?

00:13:32.160 Oh yeah, absolutely. So, so I really believe that the reason we're here is because of the,

00:13:39.320 the failure of the churches. So years ago is decades ago when the church capitulated and basically said,

00:13:47.040 okay, God's word isn't enough to bring people in. Right. So how are we going to appeal to the young

00:13:55.580 people? How are we going to appeal to the masses and get our churches full? They abandoned the

00:14:01.720 sufficiency of scripture at that point. Oh sure. The sufficiency of scripture was still in their

00:14:07.100 doctrinal statement, but there's a major difference between the doctrinal statement you sign and the

00:14:14.280 orthopraxy. So the orthodoxy and the orthopraxy, there's a huge gap where people are, are confessionally

00:14:23.600 reformed or confessionally committed to the sufficiency of scripture, but then watch their

00:14:29.360 worship service on a Sunday and the, and the practice of the church. That's what I mean by orthopraxy.

00:14:33.340 Watch, watch what they do. And they betray the fact that they are not believing that scripture is

00:14:40.380 enough. What I mean is, um, this, the Sunday services, the weekly discipling, it no longer

00:14:47.060 revolves around and is, is founded upon the word of God. So the sermon becomes a chat and the, the

00:14:55.860 theologically robust singing, look, it doesn't have to just be hymns. It can be spiritual songs,

00:15:01.020 psalms, but we've thrown that out the window and said, let's just be emotive. Let's just emote.

00:15:06.580 Let's just express how we feel with, with the removal of the truth content. Um, and so we've

00:15:14.840 watered down the content because, well, they can't handle it or they don't want it. And so what you

00:15:21.780 have is now going on generations of people who were raised thinking scripture is not enough to

00:15:29.680 appeal to fill in the blank. Yeah. The, the simple fact of the matter is that's a false premise. It's,

00:15:37.040 it's untrue. Um, remarkably, you look at a grace community church, like, like pastor,

00:15:43.340 pastor John just celebrated, John MacArthur just celebrated 50 years of ministry at grace community

00:15:48.640 church in the heart of arguably, or is it arguably the most secular city in the world, Los Angeles and

00:15:56.460 weekend and week out. All he does is open the Bible, walk verse by verse and express it, explain it. He

00:16:05.040 doesn't, he doesn't pull any punches. He doesn't skip a chapter because that's too controversial, just

00:16:10.220 verse by verse. And to see the life here, to see the growth here, to see the young people here,

00:16:17.020 to see what it's producing. It demonstrates that God's word is, is enough. Um, God's word is

00:16:26.220 relevant. It's timely. It's applicable. Our job is not to reinvent the message. Our job is to just

00:16:33.800 present the message and we failed to do that. Yeah. And so the church at large has done a

00:16:40.780 disservice to its people in the next generation by practically telling them it's not enough.

00:16:47.000 just to read the word, uh, we need to entertain and we need to do have the psychotherapy and we need

00:16:52.960 to have the worldly ideology. So is it a surprise now that even within the reformed community,

00:16:58.840 we see the ideologies that are explicitly secular crossing over into the church? And we're saying,

00:17:06.580 where did this come from? Well, it's been coming for decades because we've abandoned the sufficiency

00:17:11.340 of scripture long ago. Inevitably when you say, or when you believe, whether it's explicit or implicit,

00:17:18.240 that the Bible isn't enough, how that actually manifests itself is that the Bible isn't important

00:17:23.620 at all. It's not just that it's this complimentary or supplementary part of your, uh, belief system or

00:17:30.400 worldview. It becomes completely decentralized, pushed off to the side. You can kind of pick and choose

00:17:36.320 eisegetically when something is going to be relevant to your worldview that's being crafted

00:17:41.620 by either the new age, which you kind of brought up or social justice theology, which is really like

00:17:47.280 liberation theology. Um, and you can kind of fit some of Jesus's words into that rather than the

00:17:53.340 other way around fitting your political, social, cultural views, worldview, um, into what scripture

00:17:58.760 says or submitting to what scripture says. So it's just not possible to have a biblical worldview

00:18:04.040 in which the Bible becomes secondary to anything. You just can't, it's, it's not possible. And I

00:18:09.880 think that's what, unfortunately, a lot of young Christians don't understand that it's not just a

00:18:14.020 matter of, uh, difference of opinion when it comes to different topics that have to do with theology,

00:18:19.880 but it's a matter of, okay, is the Bible, the center of your worldview, or are you putting it off to

00:18:26.380 the back burner and only using it when it's convenient for you? And we're all guilty of doing that. I think

00:18:31.100 at, at, at some point, God gives us the grace and sanctifies us out of the temptation to do that,

00:18:35.940 to resist that temptation. But I do see, I see so many young people doing that and they're, um,

00:18:41.380 they're confused. And I think that their own, I know that their own souls are, are suffering because

00:18:46.820 of that, because they're constantly trying to come up with different standards for right and wrong,

00:18:51.260 not based in the Bible. And, um, that's, they're elusive and it's exhausting. I would think.

00:18:57.380 Once you remove the authority of God's word, it's, it's open game. I mean, who, who then becomes the

00:19:05.400 authority? So I think at the root of, of a lot of this is the reality that Christians, many Christians

00:19:13.400 today believe there is truth in God's word, but they've failed to understand that God's word is

00:19:20.460 truth. Yes. That's a great way to say it. So it is, it is the standard. It is truth. Jesus Christ

00:19:27.280 said in John 17, 17, praying to the father of his disciples, father, sanctify them or, or make them

00:19:33.800 holy, purify them in your truth. And the next line, your word is truth. Right? So the word of God is

00:19:42.180 not simply another, um, truth claim that we can kind of filter through. And then we, as the final

00:19:47.980 determiner get to say, okay, I accept that, but I reject this. A Christian worldview means that you

00:19:54.860 are putting on the glasses of scripture through which they're the lens through which you see

00:20:00.320 everything else. Either you believe that or you don't. And if you don't, well, then the authority

00:20:06.960 is, is arbitrary. Who's the authority? Are you the authority? Is the media the authority? Is your

00:20:11.460 favorite political icon the authority? Who, who are you going to establish as the preeminent authority

00:20:16.480 in your life for morality, godliness for life? Well, the Christian, the sufficiency of scripture

00:20:22.820 demands that God and his word is the final arbiter. It is the lens through which we see everything else.

00:20:30.640 Um, and because we've abandoned that, that's why we see so much confusion. Yeah. I mean, Ali, it's,

00:20:37.620 it's not very complicated. The issue of sin, God made us to worship him. And in that relationship

00:20:48.480 of worship, there is satisfaction, there's joy, there's peace, there's, there's love.

00:20:56.540 What we've done is rebelled against that purpose. So yes, we could talk about all the manifestations of

00:21:03.160 sin, but the root of it is we want to worship ourselves. So Romans one is instead of worshiping

00:21:08.780 the creator, we worship the created. And so now we've got chaos. So instead of honoring God,

00:21:16.100 serving God, loving God, we are serving, honoring, loving ourselves and created things.

00:21:21.540 The, the call is to come back to proper worship of our creator, which means at the very root of that,

00:21:28.840 we say, well, why is this sin? Why is that sin? Because God's our maker, which means he has every

00:21:34.780 right to tell us how to live. And he's created us for the, for the most profitable functioning of us

00:21:42.420 for our joy. Right. And so we've got to get back to the very basic message of Genesis through revelation

00:21:51.020 of the gospel of why God, the creator made us, what our purpose is and how we can be restored to that

00:21:57.660 purpose. And I think what you just said, unfortunately, so often, especially in young

00:22:03.500 evangelical Christianity, is it presented as good news that it's good news that you are no longer 0.99

00:22:10.620 a slave to yourself. You're no longer a slave to your sin anymore, that you get to be forgiven.

00:22:16.200 You get to repent from your sin. You get to live under the law of grace. You get to follow Jesus whose

00:22:21.900 burden is light and yoke is easy. The ever-changing standards of the world that is exhausting.

00:22:26.600 And it is an act of mercy by God that he lets you get off that crazy train. I think often how we hear

00:22:34.020 the gospel presented is, okay, God loves you. Oh, and okay, so here's the bad. The bad news is you

00:22:41.000 have to stop doing what you want to do. The bad news is you have to kind of repent of your sin. And

00:22:46.020 like, yes, there's the deny yourself, all that stuff. Like that's kind of seen as the caveat to the good

00:22:51.400 news. But that is the good news. The good news is that you get to lay the burden of your sin,

00:22:56.220 the chains of your sin at the foot of the cross that's taken care of for you. But unfortunately,

00:23:01.160 I think the gospel is very often boiled down to God loves you, wants you to be happy,

00:23:05.660 and to do what you want to do. But that doesn't free.

00:23:10.040 Totally. And so we've got to, honestly, we've just got to present the gospel how scripture

00:23:16.920 presents the gospel. It's this all satisfying wellspring of life. How often did Jesus come to

00:23:22.640 me and say, are you thirsty? Come to me and drink. That's a picture of satisfaction. Look,

00:23:30.640 if you sit with anyone and tell them, hey, do you want to be deeply satisfied and happy regardless

00:23:37.860 of any circumstance in life? Cancer, no cancer. Money, no money. Health, no health. Do you want

00:23:46.040 to have a deep-seated joy that is unshakable, that isn't contingent upon the stuff you have or the place

00:23:51.940 you live? Who's going to say, no, I want my happiness based upon my checking account? Of course,

00:24:00.100 people are saying, yes, that's what I've longed for. And then you ask them, but have you found that?

00:24:04.780 Oh, no. Because you may have a good day today, a bad day tomorrow. So happy today, sad tomorrow.

00:24:12.600 That's why the emotional experience of the human soul is this like roller coaster ride of highs

00:24:18.040 and lows. If you pay attention to scripture, the picture painted of the Christian from beginning to

00:24:27.000 end is a steadfast joy. I'll give you, and you know, we don't have the time now, but you want to

00:24:34.860 see this for yourself. Go to the book of Philippians. Read 15 commentaries from different perspectives on

00:24:41.740 Philippians. The book of Philippians is called The Letter of Joy. Paul's joy-filled apostle. It is the

00:24:48.840 preeminent book about joy. Literally, I preached through it a couple of years ago, and every single

00:24:55.500 section in that book is tied to joy. Paul expressing why he has joy. Here's the interesting

00:25:02.840 thing. When Paul wrote it, he was an old man in prison, chained. So this man in jail wrote the

00:25:14.200 preeminent masterpiece, literary masterpiece on joy. And he's an old man in prison, who, by the way,

00:25:22.680 was single. Yeah. Which goes into the lies of, unless you're sexually satisfied, you can't be

00:25:29.080 happy. Right. And read what he says. It's the expression of the psalmist in Psalm 73, who says,

00:25:36.380 whom have I in heaven but you, speaking to God? What on earth do I desire beside you? My heart, my flesh

00:25:42.520 can fail, but God is the rock of my heart and my portion forever. What he's saying is, cancer, take my

00:25:49.640 body. I've got God. And so I offer to people, as a gospel preacher, that if your joy is tied up in the

00:25:58.400 things of this world, as quickly as those things gave you your joy, they can, and here's the spoiler

00:26:04.440 alert, they will take it away. Right. But the joy that comes from knowing the person of Jesus Christ,

00:26:11.640 who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, is a joy that is steadfast, immovable, unshakable.

00:26:19.120 It's a joy that surpasses understanding. That's from Philippians 4, where you say,

00:26:24.800 I'm reading the diagnosis, and this is bad news, but I have a joy in my soul. It's inexplicable.

00:26:32.540 You say, where does this come from? Because it's a supernatural joy given from Christ that's not

00:26:37.360 contingent upon the circumstances of life. My goodness, that's appealing. I want to know that

00:26:45.060 message and I want to spread that message. Yeah. I think that's exactly why that reaches the point

00:26:51.520 of why this message of, especially to young women, self-love and self-care are the things that are

00:26:58.520 going to satisfy you. The reason why that doesn't work is for exactly what you just explained. If the

00:27:06.060 problem is the self, the solution can't also be the self. There has to be something outside of us

00:27:12.220 that's going to satisfy us. And yet we're told the reason that we lack confidence, the reason that we

00:27:17.220 lack satisfaction, the reason that we lack contentment or joy is because of some kind of deficit inside

00:27:24.820 ourselves. And if we just work hard enough to fill that deficit of confidence or whatever with positive

00:27:29.480 self-talk or positive podcasts or self-help books or whatever it is, then we'll be fine. And there's

00:27:35.980 unfortunately, even a lot of Christians hearing that, that Jesus is just coming along for the ride

00:27:42.120 of your, on your journey to self-love and self-expression and self-fulfillment and self-confidence.

00:27:47.560 And he's just there to tell you that you look good while you're doing it. Um, but you're exactly right.

00:27:53.180 That is, uh, not only self-worship, which you talked about, it's also not the message of good news,

00:28:00.580 because if you are the problem, you can't also be the solution. It is good news that we get to deny

00:28:06.440 ourselves. It's not bad news. Absolutely. And if we're honest with ourselves, we need to be rescued

00:28:13.760 from ourselves. Yeah. I'm in all the problems of my life, interpersonal issues. I'm the common

00:28:20.340 denominator that is in the middle of all of them where the, the, the disruption and the division.

00:28:26.160 And it's, I look at my own heart and say, Oh, I, I need to be rescued from my sinful heart.

00:28:32.540 Christ offers us a good message of I'll rescue you from the sin that enslaves you. Like you just said.

00:28:38.360 And, and it's the love of Christ that constrains us. Ali, what you just described and what you so

00:28:45.880 insightfully have seen, which I think is, is, is what I've seen as well in the church,

00:28:50.880 every false religion is built upon the premise of you can do this. Yeah. 0.78

00:28:59.300 Except the religion of Jesus Christ, where he enters this world and says, 0.97

00:29:03.040 you are hopelessly lost. You have no chance of doing this. Romans chapter three,

00:29:08.380 you, you have all turned aside together. You've become worthless. No one seeks after God. No one 0.98

00:29:13.960 is righteous. No one does good, but God. Right. Because of his great love. Yeah. It's a message of

00:29:22.080 Christ and his glory and his goodness. Um, we've got to abandon this humanistic idea that we're

00:29:28.980 self-sufficient. Exactly. Exactly. It's Ephesians two, which you kind of quoted there as well, that we

00:29:35.860 were dead in our trespasses and sins of which we once walked. It's not that we were just bad people

00:29:40.260 that have become good people. We're not just improved versions of ourselves. We're actually,

00:29:44.340 we're new creations. We're made alive in Christ. If you were dead in your sin, that means that there

00:29:48.620 was nothing that you could do to save yourself. And I think you'll have to tell me who said this,

00:29:53.140 because I forget who the author of this quote was, but you contributed, uh, nothing to your

00:29:57.860 salvation except for the sin that made it necessary. Right. You might not know. It was either,

00:30:02.240 it was either Whitfield or Edwards. The two of them are, were very good friends, but it was one of

00:30:06.080 those two. Yes. Which is, which is true. And that is freeing. That's freeing,

00:30:09.860 but that's so not what you just said about the self being the common denominator and all of the

00:30:14.760 problems, the interpersonal problems and all of that, that we have in our lives. That is so not

00:30:18.720 the mentality that is being preached today. The mentality that's being preached today

00:30:22.720 is you have to, every single bad thing that happens to you or every single person that treats you badly,

00:30:28.000 you are a victim of that situation. It is never your fault and you should never take responsibility

00:30:34.240 for anything. Everything that happens to you that is some kind of misfortune is a grave

00:30:39.580 injustice that you need to find someone to fix for you because it's never your fault. And as soon

00:30:46.480 as you think it's your fault, well, that's just toxic and you need to start feeling better about

00:30:50.100 yourself. There are two chapters in the entire Bible that don't mention sin. Genesis one and two.

00:30:58.640 Yeah. From that point on, we are the culprits, morally responsible agents of rebellion.

00:31:05.860 When you start discussing sin as mistakes or your circumstances, you're a victim. That's just not

00:31:13.380 how scripture talks about it. Satan tempts, but he tempts you with what you really desire.

00:31:19.220 The world allures you to what you really desire. The issue is your sin. No one will ever be condemned,

00:31:28.140 justly condemned before God because of what someone else has done.

00:31:31.380 It's here. And here's the preeminent example. If we want to talk about being a victim of

00:31:39.480 circumstance and you're not culpable because someone else, look at Jesus Christ. All he ever did,

00:31:48.940 healed people, cured people, fed people, loved people, sat with people, compassionate, caring,

00:31:55.400 loving, loving, and he was slaughtered by people. And in that moment where he's being spit upon,

00:32:02.400 where he's being beaten, where he's being mocked and stripped naked and flogged and hung on the cross

00:32:07.680 and nailed to the tree for the very people that are doing this to him, he's dying for them.

00:32:14.380 What was his response? He didn't get to such a point where he said, you know what? I've had enough.

00:32:19.520 He says of the centurions, Father, forgive them. They know not what they do. So in the one who

00:32:27.560 suffered the most of any human ever, what came out of his heart was forgiveness and love.

00:32:36.140 So we're quick though to give an asterisk and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's Jesus.

00:32:41.480 I'm not Jesus. Fine. Let's leave Jesus there. Let's go to his disciples. Let's go to Acts chapter

00:32:50.860 seven. Stephen, just a normal guy. Acts chapter six, literally Stephen serving widows food,

00:32:59.820 cleaning tables, just a normal guy, except for the fact we're told he was filled with the Holy 1.00

00:33:05.460 Spirit, meaning he's a Christian. So then Stephen gets called to the carpet. He opens his mouth and

00:33:13.180 preaches the gospel. The crowds gnash their teeth, rush him, throw him in the street, broad daylight,

00:33:21.600 throw the man in the middle of the street and brutally murder him. What's Stephen's response

00:33:27.000 as he's being stoned? Father, do not hold this against them. The same exact response of Jesus

00:33:35.840 Christ, just an average Joe, that's Christianity. It's a supernatural reality of the spirit of God

00:33:43.960 living inside of you, where you rise above the circumstance and the issue of you, the issue of sin,

00:33:52.140 your bitterness, your lack of forgiveness, your hatred, your racism, your bigotry,

00:33:56.840 your selfishness. That problem of you is cured because there's the spirit of God dwelling in you.

00:34:04.920 And so we've got to get away from you've got the power to Christ has the power. It's his grace

00:34:13.900 working in us. We have to go from self-centered to Christ-centered. And it's a radical shift, but

00:34:22.140 subtly over decades. And it's almost like the frog in the boiling pot. We've moved away from that

00:34:28.120 message. Why? Well, it's offensive to tell someone they're a sinner. Someone the other day, I was

00:34:34.800 sharing the gospel with a very good friend of mine. And he said, Jeremy, why do you think your

00:34:39.620 message is offensive? And I said, I'll tell you why it's offensive. Because the message is,

00:34:44.540 you're a condemned sinner who can't save yourself. And you are absolutely hopeless. And you need 0.99

00:34:49.780 another to save you. People don't like to hear that because it cuts to the heart of human autonomy

00:34:55.640 and pride. Yes. And that is one of the two biggest values that the secular world has. And

00:35:02.500 unfortunately, some who claim the name of Christ too is autonomy and authenticity. That if you violate

00:35:08.200 any of those two things, either of those two things, either you're telling me that I can't be

00:35:12.640 myself, or you're telling me that I don't have full control, or I shouldn't have full control over my

00:35:16.660 life, or something that I do that's under my control is wrong, then that's really the gravest

00:35:23.440 secular sin that you can commit, is telling someone that they've committed a sin, or telling someone

00:35:28.840 that they're wrong. But what you said is an encouragement and a conviction, not just for

00:35:33.100 non-Christians, but for me. Because so often, I think I am tempted, especially in the political world,

00:35:39.100 to judge non-Christians by the standards of Christianity. And I am unforgiving when it

00:35:44.800 comes to things like abortion or something like that, which of course we should believe that it is

00:35:49.440 a moral atrocity. But how much am I lacking in grace towards people who are not following Jesus

00:35:56.840 Christ, who see nothing wrong with that? We can say all day long, well, it's just common sense.

00:36:01.340 It's just common sense to not believe in abortion. It's just common sense to know that something's

00:36:06.080 wrong, that it's wrong. But it's actually not. It's not common sense. The only reason that we know

00:36:10.380 anything is good is because we are made in the image of God, and also because we are following

00:36:16.160 Christ. And so I lack the grace to say, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing

00:36:22.240 the same way that Stephen did. And then I also see a reflection on what you were saying of the crowds

00:36:28.300 that are yelling at Stephen, who later yelled at Paul at the end of Acts when he started talking

00:36:34.340 about spreading the message to the Gentiles. And the people that were listening to him just went 0.99

00:36:38.280 crazy over that. Same thing is happening today when it comes to the gospel and Christianity.

00:36:42.940 And I'm afraid that my own attitude is not one of forgiveness, but how could you? You people are

00:36:48.100 crazy. So what you said also encouraged me in that as well. 0.99

00:36:52.420 There needs to be a moral outrage, Allie, at the evils around us. And that's not ignored in

00:37:01.340 scripture because there's a passion for justice. But what's undergirding that outrage is a recognition

00:37:08.260 of, but for the grace of God, there go I. I was in the same place. I love it. I don't know where

00:37:16.940 this came from, but it's been circulated. I'm just a beggar telling other beggars where they can find

00:37:23.600 food. And so yes, there needs to be a moral outrage at murder and bigotry and hatred and

00:37:31.520 all the other atrocities we see. There's an outrage. But that's this almost strange dichotomy

00:37:42.080 of the Christian where I'm outraged at sin and injustice. And yet I would love nothing more

00:37:50.320 than for the sinners to come to know the saving, rescuing, redemption of Jesus Christ and be ushered

00:37:56.280 into a relationship with him. Let's not forget, Paul was there when Stephen was stoned.

00:38:04.060 Right. Approving. Nodding and approving.

00:38:06.600 And aside from Jesus Christ, there has, I believe, been no godlier man to walk the face of the earth

00:38:13.680 than the apostle Paul. And so what I love about Paul's message himself is in 2 Timothy 2,

00:38:20.320 verses 22 and following. He says, correct your opponents. Yep, their opponents. This is war.

00:38:28.140 Correct your opponents with gentleness. For God may grant them repentance and they may come to their

00:38:35.620 senses and come to an understanding of the truth. So you know that feeling. I know that feeling when

00:38:42.280 you're in an argument and you actually win and the other side concedes and then you immediately feel 0.99

00:38:48.000 like a jerk because you go, oh, wow, I won, but I was really out of place. Yeah, super aggressive. 0.99

00:38:54.360 Yeah. And they kind of walk away going, yeah, you're right. We don't like that feeling. Why? Because

00:38:58.760 it's like, I won the argument. We want to argue and debate in such a way where when the other side

00:39:03.780 goes, you're right, we go, you see? And then we embrace them. Right.

00:39:08.200 So it's that strange dichotomy of the Christian life. Yeah. Can you give a final word of encouragement 0.99

00:39:15.300 to young people who, there may be a group listening who, you know, they want to start taking their

00:39:22.200 faith seriously. They want to understand what we're talking about, but they just don't quite know where

00:39:27.060 to go. And so that's one group. And then I would like for you to give another bit of encouragement

00:39:31.980 to Christians who are walking with the Lord, but they feel discouraged by what's going on in the

00:39:37.700 world. They don't know how to kind of contend with those who seem so fiercely opposed to what

00:39:43.920 we believe in. Could you give a bit of encouragement to those two groups? Yeah, I'd love to. The first

00:39:50.900 group, I would say, open the word of God and read. Understand that it's living, it's active. It's sharper

00:40:01.080 than any two-edged sword. It cuts through soul and spirit. I was preaching last year and one of the men

00:40:09.020 who would go on to be converted, he was a leader of a gang in Laredo and he was attending the service.

00:40:14.200 And as I was preaching, he nudged his buddy who had been converted the year before and said, man, did you

00:40:18.740 tell him about me? Because he felt like he was being exposed in front of everyone by this preacher.

00:40:24.440 Well, that's what the word of God does. It is truth. It exposes us.

00:40:29.920 It's open the word and love the word. Peter describes the Christian as like a newborn babe 1.00

00:40:35.640 who longs for the pure spiritual milk of God's word. The word is relevant. It's applicable. It's

00:40:42.220 timely. So enter that sweet communion with the Lord through the word and prayer. Pray, talk to God,

00:40:50.660 open your heart, pray about what you're reading, pray about your questions, talk to God. But secondly,

00:40:55.920 I would very strongly encourage you to find a biblical church. And what I mean by biblical

00:41:00.680 is a church that is committed to the sufficiency of scripture. They're going to give you God's word

00:41:05.980 regardless of whether it's accepted by the culture or not. If you need help finding that,

00:41:13.240 I don't know, Ali, if you have contact information or some way where they could contact

00:41:17.040 a little more personally. But if you go to 9marks.org, I believe it is, they have a wonderful

00:41:24.860 search on their site where you can find local churches that are biblical churches. So I say

00:41:29.740 find a biblical church, find a godly Christian and be intentional in that. For the second group,

00:41:37.320 the Christian who's discouraged with what they see, I have two words for you. And we could talk for so

00:41:42.520 long about this, but I'll give you two words, three words. The lamb wins. Christ wins. Amen. 0.50

00:41:51.800 Read the book of Revelation. The story has been written. Christ wins. He will return in triumphal

00:41:59.340 glory. We will exalt at his return. Don't forget that we are sojourners. We're passing through.

00:42:06.780 We're members of the kingdom of God preeminently. You are first a Christian. And the lamb wins. 0.99

00:42:17.760 So engage the culture. Love your neighbors. Engage them. Have them over for dinner. Not to just talk

00:42:26.480 about the specific issues that you disagree on. That's what Ginger and I have loved to do with our

00:42:32.300 various neighbors that we really knew well in Laredo. We had everyone. You talk about the

00:42:37.160 spectrum of politics, the spectrum of sexuality. They were all around us, and we have them over

00:42:43.200 for dinner. And we just love them, talk to them, engage with them, share the gospel, the hope you

00:42:48.120 have. That's our commission. But don't forget, the lamb wins. Every wrong will be righted. What a 0.63

00:42:56.720 comfort that is. Yes, it is. Thank you so much. Can you tell everyone where they can find you or

00:43:01.740 any resources that you want to direct them to? Yeah. So now that I'm not pastoring, I'm studying.

00:43:09.140 I don't have the church website and that. But I think a great way to follow myself and follow my

00:43:14.920 wife is on social media. So you can find me on Twitter at Jeremy underscore Volo, V-U-O-L-O.

00:43:22.060 I think the same on Instagram, Facebook, and my wife at Ginger Volo on all of those outlets as well.

00:43:31.120 And we like to have a mix of theological conversation, but also just kind of what

00:43:35.680 we're doing in our life. But it's a good way to try to connect.

00:43:38.500 Cool. And you guys, will you be at G3 as well?

00:43:41.700 Yeah. So I'll be speaking at G3 again. I'm excited that you're speaking there.

00:43:45.220 Yeah, me too.

00:43:45.540 I can't wait to connect with you and formally meet you. And yeah, G3 is a fantastic time. So

00:43:52.720 the g3conference.com. Check that out. If you're able to go, it's a fun time.

00:43:58.200 Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

00:44:00.460 Yeah, my pleasure.

00:44:01.040 Thank you.

00:44:01.100 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 18, 2019

Ep 176 ｜ Jeremy Vuolo

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