Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 218 ｜ Stop Calling Me Beautiful ｜ Guest： Phylicia Masonheimer

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. I hope everyone has had a great week. We are

00:00:04.760 talking to Felicia Mason Heimer today. She is an author and a theologian. Felicia and I land

00:00:13.700 in different places on particular issues when it comes to complementarianism a little bit,

00:00:21.380 so gender roles within the church. She is an Arminian. I am a Calvinist. We are going to talk

00:00:27.760 about some of that stuff today and some of the differences that we have. I encourage you to go

00:00:33.680 back and listen to a few episodes that I've done in the past that will give you some insight into

00:00:38.620 what I think. So Predestination, I did a podcast called Tulip, Five Solas that kind of talks about

00:00:46.280 my reformed camp of theology and what I believe on that. I also did an interview with Josh Bice

00:00:54.160 a few months ago that lands in a different place than Felicia does, and he is awesome and has a

00:01:00.740 lot of great insight as well. But I just want to make sure that you kind of get both sides of

00:01:04.800 some of the issues that we're going to be talking about today. And we're also going to talk about,

00:01:10.620 though mostly, Felicia and I, the things that we agree on. So this crazy world of trendy narcissism

00:01:16.700 that women are so inundated in and why it is so important, why it is vital for us as women to

00:01:22.900 be in the word. And Felicia is a wonderful encourager of women, and I'm so excited for

00:01:27.920 you to hear this conversation. Without further ado, here is Felicia. Felicia, thank you so much for

00:01:33.640 joining me. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. For those who don't follow you, can you tell everyone

00:01:39.300 who you are and what you do? So I'm Felicia Misenheimer. I'm a blogger, an author, and a podcast host,

00:01:47.320 and I mainly teach theology. So a lot of what I do is kind of in the role of a public theologian. So we

00:01:54.740 engage about theology in the public sphere, not so much in an academic sense, teaching how our theology

00:02:03.140 applies to daily life, our understanding of scripture, our understanding of who God is,

00:02:08.020 how that applies to the daily walk of your work, your motherhood, your relationships, all of it.

00:02:17.100 So I do that both on my podcast, on my blog, and in my books, and a lot of times on social media. So

00:02:23.760 Instagram and Facebook are very popular where we engage about different cultural issues and Bible

00:02:29.940 topics. Right. Okay. You just released a new book, and I want to get into that. But before we do,

00:02:35.800 I want to back up. And can you tell us a little bit just about your testimony,

00:02:40.720 how you became a Christian, and then how you became what you are now, this public theologian?

00:02:46.400 Yeah. So I grew up in the church. I grew up in northern Michigan, so not in the Bible Belt,

00:02:51.580 a little bit different than a lot of Bible teachers. So in our area, you're either a Christian or you're

00:02:58.140 not. You're not going to go to church on Sunday unless it's worth skipping your snowmobile trip.

00:03:03.540 Right. So it's not as much a part of, like, the culture where it is. Like, I grew up in Texas,

00:03:08.720 and a lot of people went to church, whether or not they really believed it. It just made good,

00:03:12.780 you know, even business sense just to be a part of church. So not like that, where you're from.

00:03:17.620 Right. Right. Very different culture here. If you're going to make time to go to church,

00:03:21.620 then you're most likely a dedicated Christian. Not a lot of churches if you're not Catholic. So my

00:03:28.040 parents were very intentional about discipling us and teaching us. I was homeschooled, and that really

00:03:34.440 gave me an advantage and a foundation. However, in my teens, I really struggled with sexual addiction

00:03:41.180 and sin. And during that time, struggling in secret, I began to ask very deep theological questions,

00:03:49.060 but I didn't realize that's what they were. I was asking, you know, can I lose my salvation?

00:03:54.000 How many times do I sin before God doesn't forgive me anymore? What is repentance? What is sin?

00:04:00.120 And asking these questions forced me to dig down to what I really believed about God,

00:04:04.800 what the Bible says about these issues, and laid the foundation for eventually when I went on to get

00:04:10.680 a religion degree and started writing about these things. It gave me the desire to help other people

00:04:17.200 answer those questions.

00:04:18.180 I don't want to reveal anything that you might, you know, want to leave for your book or you want

00:04:24.940 your readers to find out through your book. But because I know there might be a lot of people

00:04:28.960 listening who have the same struggles that you did when you were a teenager, can you give us a little

00:04:33.900 bit of color of what that kind of addiction and struggle looked like when you were a teen and

00:04:40.140 wrestling with these questions?

00:04:41.140 Yes. And it's actually very common for women to struggle this way. I think we tend to, 0.99

00:04:47.960 even today, even with all of the awareness that has, has been, um, brought to light about sexual sin

00:04:55.220 and addiction and porn, we still treat it mainly as a man's problem. But 40% of women have said that

00:05:02.620 they are either addicted to porn or regularly using porn. My addiction wasn't with porn. It was with

00:05:07.920 erotica, which is simply the written form of porn. And a lot of, even Christian women are totally okay 0.78

00:05:14.200 with consuming secular fiction that has extremely, um, sexual plot lines that really is soft pornography.

00:05:22.660 And so that was my struggle. And through struggling with that, um, began to question, like I said earlier,

00:05:30.500 question my salvation, question what it meant to be a Christian and, and what did it mean to overcome sin?

00:05:36.180 Um, because that wasn't really being taught aside from what my parents were trying to teach me and

00:05:41.280 they weren't aware of my struggle. I was too ashamed to tell them. So, um, all that to say,

00:05:46.160 I think that when someone's caught in this, there's a lot of condemnation, there's a lot of shame.

00:05:51.360 And the way out is to come to the Lord with that and to godly community, but that's a process and it,

00:05:58.860 and it takes a lot of time.

00:06:00.100 Right. And how did you, um, you said that you went to major in religion, you got a degree in

00:06:06.920 religion. How did you come to a place of repentance from that and walking into the light 0.52

00:06:13.060 after being kind of hidden in shame for so long?

00:06:16.760 Something I often say, and that we see in scripture is that victory is a lifestyle, not a

00:06:22.220 destination. So if you think it's a destination, you think you're going to get to a point where

00:06:27.020 you're never tempted again, or you never fail again. And that's just not realistic. Any other

00:06:31.780 sin aside from sexual sin, we understand that we'll probably be tempted to gossip again. We'll

00:06:36.860 probably be tempted to anger again. And we have a choice in that moment to follow the Holy Spirit's

00:06:41.640 leading into sanctification or to reject that and choose sin. And so the idea of victory that's

00:06:50.680 throughout all of scripture is not that you're never tempted again, or that you never are prone

00:06:57.000 to that weakness, but that you're more likely to repent. If you fail, you're more likely to choose

00:07:03.160 Christ instead of the sin. And so as I was growing in my faith and going deeper with the Lord,

00:07:09.260 I was more likely to choose him over the sin, more likely to repent faster, more likely to, um,

00:07:16.760 get back into the word instead of spending days away from him and dwelling in the shame.

00:07:21.000 A lot of people know the verse taking our thoughts captive and surrendering them to Christ. But a lot

00:07:28.700 of people just don't know what that looks like practically. Can you shed some light on that for

00:07:33.920 people who are like, I really want to do that. You know, I want to walk in victory. I want to

00:07:38.420 surrender my thoughts to Christ, read my Bible, pray. But these thoughts just, it just kind of feels

00:07:44.140 like a battle for a lot of people. Do you have any encouragement or insight for, for them?

00:07:49.620 Yeah. And the first thing I have to say is kind of the hard word. Then we'll get to the

00:07:53.840 more enjoyable part. The hard word is what are you putting in your mind? What have you settled for

00:08:00.780 as far as entertainment and media? If you're okay with consuming what the world and even other

00:08:07.380 Christians say is normal, when it clearly is a stumbling block for you, then you will continue to 1.00

00:08:13.840 struggle with your thoughts and you will most likely fail. For seven years, I didn't go to the

00:08:20.300 movie theater. I didn't really watch any TV shows or movies. I couldn't, I couldn't risk it. There

00:08:25.180 was stuff in there that I could not watch. I didn't read fiction for 10 years because the risk of running

00:08:31.460 across a sex scene was too much for me. That's a sacrifice I had to make. I had to set very firm

00:08:37.060 boundaries in my dating relationships because of my susceptibility. So whatever the area of sin is,

00:08:42.420 you have to be willing to set up the boundary that may make you abnormal to other people in order to

00:08:49.800 pursue holiness. But the good news is that as you're, you're not, you're not doing that to earn

00:08:57.520 God's grace or favor, his grace makes up the difference. And he comes through that as you're

00:09:02.980 obeying and setting those standards, he supports that step of faith and sanctifies you through that

00:09:09.260 and supports you and strengthens you in the process. Right. I think a lot of people don't

00:09:14.880 want to, one of the reasons why they don't want to give up Netflix or whatever it is, or watching

00:09:21.260 The Bachelorette is not just because it's difficult. Of course it's difficult because all of our friends

00:09:26.700 are doing it, but also in giving up those things, it's admitting that we have that problem. And that I

00:09:34.100 think is really difficult for us. If we can just kind of pretend, Oh no, no, no, we're fine reading

00:09:39.000 this stuff, watching this stuff. It's not a big deal. Then we can kind of convince ourselves and

00:09:43.800 convince other people. Well, that we don't really have this struggle because I think the big thing

00:09:48.380 is that we don't want to admit it's embarrassing. We don't want to admit that this is like a sin that

00:09:53.780 we really have. Don't you think? Oh yeah. It's very shameful, particularly sexual sin. I think

00:10:00.160 there, there is clearly based on what we see in the culture and all through history, there's a very

00:10:05.420 specific attack on sexuality because it's so intimate because it represents covenant. And

00:10:12.720 when you're struggling with sexual sin, I think there's a lot more shame with that than with other

00:10:19.640 sins. Not that it's a greater sin than others, but it, it brings with it a greater weight of shame

00:10:25.220 because it has a great weight in the eyes of God. Um, but the beautiful thing is first John one,

00:10:32.120 nine, if you confess your sins, he is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you of

00:10:36.900 all unrighteousness. And I often look at, um, the verse where Peter asks Jesus, how often do we have

00:10:43.880 to forgive? You know, the guy who's offended me and Jesus says 70 times seven. So if we have to forgive

00:10:49.560 70 times seven, how many times do you think God genuinely forgives when we repent? And that's our hope.

00:10:54.640 Right. And Paul even says that sexual sin is different than other sins because you're sinning

00:11:00.740 against your own body. And the Bible also talks about how we're bought with a price that we are,

00:11:07.820 the Holy Spirit is, is dwelling within us. And so the, the sins that we commit with our body,

00:11:13.820 like you said, they don't necessarily carry a different kind of eternal punishment or anything

00:11:19.140 like that, but they do have different consequences because it's not just bodily. It's also emotional.

00:11:24.920 It's also spiritual. If you think about how wonderful and beautiful and pleasurable sex is

00:11:31.340 in the right context, well, it, the, the taking it out of the proper context and the wrong context

00:11:38.060 brings it to the other extreme, which is the opposite of beautiful and wonderful and productive

00:11:44.260 and good. And it is destructive. It is damaging. It is hollow. It is harmful. Um, and I think that's

00:11:52.660 part of why it can be so shameful. Um, because we know, we know the impact and significance of sex

00:11:59.600 and therefore of sexual sin. Um, okay. Do you want to talk about your book a little bit? What the,

00:12:07.120 what the premise says, what it was like, even just writing the book and what you want people to get out

00:12:11.620 of it? Sure. Yeah. So the book is called stop calling me beautiful, finding soul, deep strength

00:12:18.640 in a skin deep world. Um, and, and it kind of echoes a little bit. It's like, I was telling 0.98

00:12:24.780 somebody recently, your book is coming out and a lot of people who ordered my book are also ordering

00:12:30.000 your book, which is so fun and exciting. It actually said I, when I scrolled down, I mean,

00:12:36.300 obviously my book's not out yet. It's out in May, but it says like, order this, you're not enough.

00:12:42.440 Plus stop calling me beautiful. I'm like, Oh, that's so perfect. I loved it. I was, I was so

00:12:48.180 glad to just see people pre-ordering both. Um, and I'm so excited for your book to come out. So

00:12:53.920 mine is kind of a big picture view of why women need to go deeper in their faith than the surface level

00:13:03.640 theology, the surface level Christianity that doesn't lead to any kind of victory, but is what's

00:13:09.560 taught in a lot of women's ministry events and books and materials. Yeah. Can you give us some

00:13:16.500 examples of the kind of superficial stuff that women tend to hear? Well, one of them you've addressed 0.89

00:13:22.400 before it's the, you're worthy message. You're worthy just the way you are. And it sounds good

00:13:28.280 because we do see worthiness in scripture, but when you start at the ending point and you leave

00:13:35.580 out everything that had to happen for that worthiness to be imputed, you're cheapening the

00:13:40.620 grace of God and you're actually making disciples who don't even know where their worthiness came from.

00:13:47.360 Right. So they don't even appreciate what Jesus did and they're not going to be as invested.

00:13:51.540 They don't know as Bonhoeffer wrote the cost of discipleship. And so that's one of the watered

00:13:57.080 down messages. Um, you've got questions about, um, saying you're the beautiful daughter of God,

00:14:03.340 which is the message of the book itself. Um, when you say you're a beautiful daughter of God,

00:14:08.480 yes, it's true. Thank you, dear. But you need to look at where that beauty comes from.

00:14:15.240 Right. This is my daughter, by the way.

00:14:17.700 Oh, it's fine.

00:14:17.940 I apologize for the interruption. No, it's okay. Um, so Hey, we're in an interview. So if you're

00:14:26.040 only talking about the beauty of the gospel in a halfway format, you're not talking about where

00:14:33.320 that beauty came from, how it was imputed. You're just saying you're a beautiful daughter of the

00:14:36.940 King. You have no power behind that. It doesn't change your life. Right. And so you have to have

00:14:41.680 the full gospel to have a victorious Christian life. Right. Um, and it's kind of like what you

00:14:48.500 were talking about in your, in your teenage struggle and the things that you needed to hear

00:14:53.700 and the hard truths that you needed to hear. There could have been people that came along and just

00:14:57.380 said, Hey, Felicia, you're worthy and you're great and you're beautiful and you're enough as

00:15:01.960 you are. And maybe that would have made you feel a little bit better in those low times of feeling

00:15:06.620 ashamed. But ultimately that's not what led you. I'm guessing that's not what led you to repentance.

00:15:12.680 It was the deep power of the gospel, the realization that you're a sinner, but God's love and his grace

00:15:17.440 and his mercy and his death and his sacrifice is bigger than your shame and your sin and your,

00:15:22.060 and your struggle. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is when you're struggling with sexual sin,

00:15:27.580 people can tell you you're worthy all day long, but you know, the truth, you, you know,

00:15:32.740 that you're not. And so there had to be something more than that message. I needed something deeper

00:15:39.120 that to fix a soul deep problem. And that is the gospel. Why do you think it is that women's 1.00

00:15:47.640 ministries in particular, it seems like anyway, are susceptible to this kind of superficial pithy

00:15:56.140 theology that just makes us feel good about our insecurities rather than digging into the word,

00:16:01.600 which is just as accessible and available to us as it is to anyone else?

00:16:06.780 Well, I have a couple of theories. One of them is, I think, because women understand that generally

00:16:15.240 speaking in the complementarian world, you're not going to become a pastor. So if you're not going

00:16:21.500 to become a pastor or you're not going into any kind of ministry, why do I need to study theology?

00:16:27.020 And this comes from the misconstrued idea that theology isn't practical, that it doesn't matter

00:16:34.360 to daily life, that it's just for people who are nerds or really heady or people who just like to

00:16:38.800 read a lot. But we know that studying who God is and how he operates is foundational to every decision

00:16:46.700 you make. It's, it's your worldview. And so once someone can understand that, I think it helps them

00:16:52.540 go, oh, so I do have a theology already. It's just a shallow one. And when we look at these books that

00:16:59.880 are being written, I think as well-intentioned as the authors are, many times they see a problem.

00:17:05.940 They see this woman struggling with insecurity, this woman struggling with her identity. I'll write a book

00:17:10.180 about identity and I'll proof text stuff to talk about that, but they don't go back to the root issue

00:17:17.760 and they don't talk about what the real problem is, which is, you know, that nasty word we don't

00:17:23.740 like to talk about, sin. Once we deal with that, we can deal with the symptoms. But many women's 1.00

00:17:30.080 ministries, you know, would rather make cupcakes and talk about, you know, wearing a crown than doing

00:17:36.080 that.

00:17:36.760 Yeah. It's almost like people think that, that our insecurities as women come from the fact that

00:17:43.360 we're too focused on our sin when very often that is not the case. It's because like, for example,

00:17:50.400 people often ask me when I criticize the whole self-love movement, they say, well, do you just

00:17:54.820 want us to hate ourselves? Do you just want us to be self-deprecating? Do you just want us to loathe

00:17:59.380 ourselves? No. Self-loathing, self-deprecation is actually just the other side of the self-obsessed

00:18:07.300 coin, the self-focused coin, the self-centered coin. The reason that we are so deep into our

00:18:15.760 insecurity, so deep into all of the different things that might be right or wrong about us is

00:18:21.240 not because we hate ourselves. It's because still we're focusing on ourselves too much and not enough

00:18:26.640 on the God who made us, not enough on the gospel. And so the answer, the anecdote or the antidote to

00:18:32.800 self-loathing and self-hatred is not just self-love. It's not just hearing that you're

00:18:38.140 enough. It's not just hearing that you're beautiful. It's the gospel, just like the answer

00:18:43.000 to all things. So I absolutely agree with you. Yeah. And that's why I'm so glad that your book

00:18:51.000 is coming out because I think that they go so well together because once you get a foundational

00:18:58.280 understanding of who you are and who God is, then you can talk about and understand this self-love

00:19:04.780 conversation through more open eyes and an open mind. But if you are still thinking that, you know,

00:19:12.300 this beautiful daughter of God thing, this copy of the world's self-love message is the one women 0.95

00:19:18.620 need, you're not going to even be open to the idea that selflessness is the way that we're called to

00:19:26.300 walk. Yeah. Tell me about some other problems that you see in female Christianity and women's 1.00

00:19:32.720 ministry. I don't know if you and I necessarily land on, you know, in the same place on everything

00:19:39.380 complementarianism, but there are a lot of conversations right now about women being

00:19:44.540 teachers, women being preachers. I'm a Southern Baptist, so the SBC has been having a conversation

00:19:49.280 about this for a long time. A lot of it centered around Beth Moore. Tell me kind of your thoughts on,

00:19:56.300 all of that in how you see the Bible giving us insight into that kind of issue.

00:20:02.300 Well, I have many thoughts on that, especially after the MacArthur Moore debacle a couple months

00:20:08.100 ago. I think when we look at what scripture has to say about being a woman, we have to remember that

00:20:14.960 all the commands to Christians as a whole are the foundation for then what's discussed about men and

00:20:22.880 women specifically. So all the fruit of the spirit are expected of both. Now, clearly there are roles

00:20:30.700 and differences in the sexes. Um, and I did a lot of study of complementarianism and egalitarianism for

00:20:37.560 several years to try to understand both sides and where, you know, my husband and I, where we ended up

00:20:43.080 landing. Um, but as a woman who is leading and teaching, I think one of the big things I see

00:20:51.360 is among women leaders, you are in the Christian world. There's a tendency to not be willing 0.99

00:21:01.180 to maybe check your worldview at the door and say, Hey, I'm willing to make sure that I'm on the right

00:21:12.420 track biblically here. I do tend to see a trend towards women who are like, I have a gift. Um, 0.99

00:21:20.060 I love scripture. And so I'm going to find out, find a way that the Bible supports this, you know?

00:21:28.720 And I think that's what we are seeing in this polarizing conversation around women leading

00:21:33.220 and complementarian, egalitarian. The real question I have for either side is, are you building your

00:21:41.260 argument off of scripture first and being open to the idea that your worldview and your ideas might

00:21:46.660 have to change? Or do you really, really, really just believe that God's gifted you this way and

00:21:52.140 you're trying to find stuff in scripture to support it? When you're talking about supporting it, are you

00:21:59.480 talking about supporting women, you know, being in the pulpit preaching to men? Um, yeah, I would say

00:22:06.900 that's where I see it the most. Um, I'm just gonna be transparent. My own view is, I guess you'd call me a

00:22:12.540 soft complementarian. I believe that headships clearly in scripture. I don't believe a woman 1.00

00:22:17.700 should be a senior pastor. I do think that women may speak and teach in certain contexts when they're 1.00

00:22:24.600 under the authority of the pastor. Um, and I, what about like at conferences and stuff? Cause that's

00:22:30.920 also been a point of contention that honestly, I hadn't really considered until someone brought it up

00:22:34.900 to me, but someone like Beth Moore, maybe not even Beth Moore because she's, you know, has her 0.98

00:22:39.260 own controversies. At least people see her as being controversial, but any woman who you would say, 1.00

00:22:45.280 you know, is a faithful Christian and is under male headship at her church and her marriage and all of

00:22:51.620 that, but she speaks somewhere like, you know, an intermixed passion or something like that. Do you see

00:22:56.840 something wrong with that biblically? No, I think a good example of this is Jen Wilkin. You have someone 1.00

00:23:02.120 who honors her, her husband honors the pastor of her church is in ministry who clearly loves the

00:23:10.020 word, who lives a life of integrity. Um, but who speaks at TGC and there are men and there are women

00:23:16.080 there. I think there's a lot of freedom that scripture gives on this issue when the woman is

00:23:25.280 in appropriate submission. And of course we all hate that word today, but it is deferring to covering,

00:23:30.500 deferring to authority. And so in my own life and teaching, I am under the covering, if you will,

00:23:36.480 of my husband and of my pastor, who's aware of what I teach and what I do, even though I'm not

00:23:41.280 directly ministering all the time in the church. And so again, there's a lot of views on this. This is

00:23:46.840 my own view after study. Um, but I do think that when you're striving for a position, when a woman is 1.00

00:23:57.480 looking for opportunities to use her voice instead of saying, Lord, are you leading this? Cause I know

00:24:03.160 you're not going to lead contrary to the word. That's when you have a problem, you know, assuming

00:24:08.680 that God is leading everything instead of being willing to check what you desire against what the

00:24:14.040 word's saying. Here's a question for that is, is it possible for a woman to, and I've gone back and 0.98

00:24:21.200 forth, you know, about, about this myself. Someone posed this question to me, is it possible for a woman

00:24:26.040 to teach scripture without authority? Since by nature, scripture is authoritative. So for someone

00:24:32.920 who is at Passion or at another conference woman preaching to, you know, 22 year old men, you're

00:24:38.760 not necessarily under authority of a pastor there, of your husband there, you're teaching in essence

00:24:44.300 with authority because scripture is authoritative. So how do we, how do we see something like that

00:24:51.500 or am I just kind of confusing the thing? No, I think it's a very valid question. My answer to

00:24:57.800 this, um, and is going to maybe be different than where you'd land because I, um, I'm a continuationist

00:25:05.500 and I can't remember where, um, you stand on that, but as a continuationist, I believe that spiritual

00:25:11.620 gifts still exist today. And one of them is prophecy. Prophecy, you know, has foretelling and

00:25:17.120 forth telling most of the time prophecy would be forth telling. And it is essentially preaching,

00:25:22.420 which we see women doing in scripture repeatedly. So in that sense, I do believe that a woman can

00:25:31.100 teach and preach because of the model that we see in acts that we see women acting in that role. 1.00

00:25:38.500 But I do think that it still is under that endorsement of whoever is running the conference. If

00:25:44.860 they invited her, um, if there's a covering of a denomination, her pastor's aware of it. I think

00:25:51.300 that authority structure should be sought out by a woman who is in a position of prophesying, 1.00

00:25:58.140 preaching, teaching, um, if it's not there. So asking for that accountability, I don't know that

00:26:04.280 a lot of women do that. Um, I think that it would be highly valuable and biblical for them to do so 0.99

00:26:10.560 though. Yeah. I think that there certainly are, obviously, I believe that there are contexts in

00:26:16.240 which women can talk about the Bible. I mean, I talk about the Bible on this podcast and I can't 1.00

00:26:21.280 control who listens to it. I always assume that the people listening to it are women and I, uh, you 1.00

00:26:26.400 know, address people as women, as moms, as, you know, friends, sisters, whatever. Uh, and so certainly

00:26:33.700 I believe that there are contexts in which women can, uh, talk about the Bible, especially talking about

00:26:39.460 culture and politics from a biblical perspective. It's a little bit different than preaching. I do

00:26:44.260 worry about this kind of Christian brand. And this is almost a different issue. It's not necessarily

00:26:49.700 the one we're talking about, about complementarianism, but I do worry about this like Christian brand of 1.00

00:26:55.640 female empowerment that is particularly snarky and sassy towards people who are not soft complementarians,

00:27:04.300 but hard complementarians who don't believe that someone should be preaching at passion, who don't

00:27:08.960 believe that people, that there are really contexts within, you know, the Sunday gathering for a

00:27:13.460 woman to stand up and preach behind the pulpit. And it just looks to me and sounds to me so much

00:27:20.180 like secular feminism of kind of rolling their eyes and laughing at who they think is the patriarchy 0.99

00:27:25.860 within the church. And I'm not saying that there aren't faults on the other side of it from people

00:27:30.200 who are making the accusations towards these, like what seems like Christian feminists. But to me,

00:27:35.060 it just so mirrors the world, like that there is almost like a scoffing at the woman who was like,

00:27:41.320 you know what, I am gentle and quiet and I don't speak up a whole lot. And I am okay with submitting

00:27:48.020 to my husband and submitting to my pastor. There just seems to be a shaking of the fist of some

00:27:53.060 Christian woman, of some Christian women on the egalitarian side that makes me very uncomfortable. 1.00

00:27:58.140 And to me, delegitimizes, delegitimizes their position because to me, they just look so much

00:28:05.740 and sound so much like secular feminists. Yeah. Well, and here's another thing. You can't build an 1.00

00:28:12.340 accurate theology that's reactive. Reactive theology is not sound theology. So if you're reacting against

00:28:19.820 a hyper-complementarian and angry about it, and they're just as angry and snarky at you,

00:28:27.960 you've just created division over a non-salvation issue and you're in sin because of your attitude.

00:28:35.660 So it truly is an issue I see on both sides. I totally agree with you with the snark of the

00:28:41.460 progressive side, you know, these ignorant people. A good example is the halftime show. Sarah Bessie, 0.99

00:28:47.540 progressive leader, talked, you know, posted on her Twitter about how anybody who didn't like

00:28:53.560 the halftime show or disapproved of it was clutching their pearls and was essentially a prude.

00:28:59.760 Yeah. When, you know, making a comment like that is clearly intolerant and biased and not even giving

00:29:07.660 a chance to people who might have been sitting there going, you know what, I believe in the sanctity

00:29:11.500 of life and sanctity of life means sanctity of sex. I can't approve this. Right. And I'm not going

00:29:16.380 to let my kids watch it. Instead, she assumes that we're all prudes and, you know, we all have horrible 0.81

00:29:20.600 sex lives. Like that's, that's an example of this kind of arrogance that, that does not get anybody 0.98

00:29:26.780 anywhere. And, and I think we have to be careful if we are not on that side of the fence to remember

00:29:35.200 that our tone should set the example where their tone has failed, that our tone should not be snarky.

00:29:42.780 We should tell the truth as genuinely as possible, but not come back with the same level of arrogance

00:29:49.340 that they have, because then we're just committing the same sins, quite frankly.

00:29:55.560 Right. Both sides, I would say, and I've only kind of come to realize this, are a little bit

00:30:00.600 reactive. You have, it seems like on the extremes, on the extreme side of, I won't even call it

00:30:06.760 complementarianism. On the extreme side of the other end of feminism, you have people who view like 1.00

00:30:14.260 any female complaint or any complaint about how women are treated within the church, any complaint

00:30:20.180 of abuse as, um, as like, oh, that person's just trying to push feminism or that person's trying to

00:30:27.720 push social justice. And then on the other side, you, on the other extreme, you have women

00:30:34.200 who view anyone who believes in any kind of gender role or any kind of submission, whether it's in

00:30:39.880 the church or in marriage as not caring about women, of wanting women to get abused and wanting

00:30:46.360 to cover up abuse. And both of them, there is a lot of snark back and forth and there's a lot of

00:30:51.020 combativeness. And I'm looking at both sides. On the one hand, I feel like there's a lot of

00:30:55.720 condescension towards women in reaction to the whole female empowerment movement on the left side.

00:31:01.060 And then there is a reaction to the condescension on the left side, uh, towards who they view are

00:31:06.940 the patriarchy. And I'm looking at both and I just, it makes me very uncomfortable. And I, you know

00:31:13.500 what? I think that this is a reason we were talking about why women don't get into theology. I think 0.92

00:31:17.600 this is why there's a lot of women who are like, I don't, you know what? Theology is for the birds. 1.00

00:31:23.220 Theology is for people like this who just want to argue. Theology is for people who want to be

00:31:27.140 divided. I don't like this kind of stuff. I'm uncomfortable. A lot of women are peacemakers. 1.00

00:31:31.880 We want, we are relational. And I think, so I think that's another reason we're like,

00:31:35.600 if that's what theology is, I don't want to get into those debates.

00:31:39.800 Right. Yeah. And I mean, I think a lot of people who are, who do talk about theology want to debate,

00:31:45.500 which confirms what you're saying.

00:31:47.900 Which I'm fine with. I like theological debates and discussions. I really do.

00:31:51.620 But when it's like a back where people are talking past each other, which I'm totally guilty of,

00:31:56.060 people are talking past each other and over each other and not purposely misunderstanding each other

00:32:00.540 for the sake of retweets or whatever, then that gets very uncomfortable. And I think people are like,

00:32:06.340 whatever, I'm just going to go with what I feel.

00:32:09.960 Right. Right. Well, the interesting thing is though, the way to true peace is going to be

00:32:16.000 by understanding what you believe and why you believe it. Right. Because then you can articulate

00:32:22.260 it in a calm and gentle way and actually have a conversation. But if you continue to run from

00:32:30.060 theology because of how other people are abusing it, it's, it's, that's not God's intention. Like

00:32:36.100 if theology is the study of God, understanding him and his intent and how to live your life,

00:32:42.060 you really can't live without that. And so you don't have to do it the way they're doing it.

00:32:46.980 You don't have to be nasty. You don't have to argue, but you do have to know why you believe

00:32:50.740 what you believe. And so that's always my encouragement to people who feel overwhelmed.

00:32:54.980 Start there, start with the Bible itself and start learning why you believe these things,

00:33:01.600 because there has never been a time, in my opinion, when that was more necessary in the world.

00:33:07.660 Yes, absolutely. And I think, uh, another great thing that people can read and do,

00:33:12.060 uh, is buy your book, read your book. And I think also follow you because you give a lot of great

00:33:18.620 resources to women about how to read the Bible and how to take theology seriously. I think in the

00:33:25.020 reformed camp, I'm reformed. I don't know if you consider yourself reformed, probably not if you're

00:33:28.780 a continuationist, but there are a lot of reformed people who believe that the only people who take

00:33:33.440 the Bible seriously, the only people who really read the Bible are five point Calvinists. And even

00:33:38.200 though I am a Calvinist, I, uh, obviously I don't believe that. And I look to a lot of your stuff

00:33:43.760 for, for insights and for wisdom. And I just appreciate what you do. And I highly encourage

00:33:48.820 everyone to go check out your Instagram, your resources. And if there's anything else you want

00:33:53.860 to point people to, please do. Yeah, for sure. So I actually am Wesleyan. So I am, we're kind of on

00:34:00.620 two different sides of this, but I think there's a, in the past, it's, it's true that most of the

00:34:08.080 theological teaching is coming from the reformed camp to your credit. And I read and follow mostly

00:34:14.880 reformed teachers because they're the ones producing this. And there's been a gap in the

00:34:20.260 Wesleyan Armenian world in this area. And so that's kind of where I come from and where I fill that gap

00:34:26.420 in our, um, our tradition, but so grateful for how we're able to hear each other's ideas and listen

00:34:35.640 across the aisle so we can work towards unity in the body. I think that's so exciting and encouraging

00:34:42.200 for Christians to walk side by side, um, in going deeper in theology. So thank you so much, Allie.

00:34:49.120 Yes. Uh, well, we'll have to have you back so we can talk about, someone actually asked me

00:34:54.000 if we could talk about Calvinism versus Arminianism. I am a Calvinist. You are in Arminianism. A lot of

00:35:00.980 people want to know the differences. People can go back and listen to episodes that I did on

00:35:04.440 predestination on tulip on the five solas and, and all of that five solas obviously doesn't have to do

00:35:10.360 with predestination, but, um, people can go back and listen to that. Felicia and I don't land on the

00:35:15.860 same page on everything, but like I said, Felicia, I'm so thankful for what you do. And thank you so

00:35:20.720 much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Yep.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - February 28, 2020

Ep 218 ｜ Stop Calling Me Beautiful ｜ Guest： Phylicia Masonheimer

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript