Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 246 ｜ Speaking in Tongues & Raising the Dead

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. So

00:00:04.840 great news for everyone who is tired of hearing about the coronavirus and tired of the news cycle.

00:00:11.300 We're not going to talk about anything that has to do with any of that today. We are going to

00:00:16.440 talk about a particular theological subject that a lot of you guys have asked me to address because

00:00:22.280 it is a very popular discussion right now within the church. It has been a popular discussion for

00:00:27.760 a long time, but the popularity of this debate has kind of waxed and waned, I would say, over the

00:00:34.940 past, I don't know, 200 years. But over the past 10 years especially, questions have come up about

00:00:41.700 cessationism versus continuationism. So this is a debate about the spiritual, miraculous, charismatic

00:00:49.560 gifts that are outlined in the New Testament and whether or not they continue today, as the

00:00:56.000 continuationists say, or whether or not they ceased after the apostolic age, after the canon of the

00:01:03.740 Bible closed, which is what cessationists believe. So that is what this debate is about. We are also

00:01:10.580 going to talk about the dangers of one side of this. We're going to talk about specifically Bethel

00:01:18.140 Church and some of the theological issues with Bethel Church. And look, I understand that there are a lot

00:01:23.660 of you out there. When I did the episode on Wake Up Olive a few months ago, the trending hashtag that

00:01:30.340 was going on on social media about the precious little girl who had died and the worship leader

00:01:35.920 at Bethel, the mother, was trying to raise her from the dead and rallying the powers of social media

00:01:41.640 in order to not just pray for that, but also declare and demand that. I gave my thoughts on that and I got a

00:01:47.420 lot of angry reviews or at least a few angry reviews and comments about that. So I anticipate that I

00:01:53.900 will get some angry comments about what I have to say about Bethel and their view of the charismatic

00:02:01.360 gifts, but that is not my goal to cause you to be angry or to cause controversy. I actually don't

00:02:08.300 like controversy, believe it or not. I don't even like confrontation. Like I don't like being

00:02:14.200 confrontational. I know that might be a surprising to a lot of you, but I actually don't enjoy that.

00:02:18.780 I talk about the things that I talk about because I am looking for truth and I want to speak truth.

00:02:26.300 And I believe that you guys are worth being told the truth too. And I am always willing to be corrected.

00:02:34.540 I am always willing to be debated and discussed with and rebuked, especially when it comes to scripture.

00:02:40.660 If you can point me to the scripture that contradicts something I'm saying, I want nothing more than to

00:02:45.980 be corrected in that vein. And that goes for today. Absolutely. Cessationism versus continuationism is

00:02:52.740 not a gospel issue in and of itself. So that means if you are a Christian who believes the opposite of

00:02:59.320 what I believe, which I'll get into that today, then that doesn't mean that we disagree on the

00:03:04.720 fundamentals of the gospel. It is a secondary issue. However, it's an important issue because there's a lot

00:03:10.200 of confusion about what kind of gifts Christians today should be striving toward and what kind of

00:03:16.200 gifts are real and what we should be looking for and how we verify all this stuff. And so that's what

00:03:21.100 we're going to start to get into today. We could have 600 episodes on this alone, at least six episodes

00:03:26.840 on this alone, but we're going to try to cover what we can in a single episode. Okay, let's get into

00:03:32.880 all of this. Um, like I said, I get asked about this a lot because of its popularity. There are a lot

00:03:40.460 of people wondering, okay, like, should I be trying to speak in tongues? Is it true when someone

00:03:46.120 prophesies over me that my dad is going to die in 12 years and then I need to travel to Israel before

00:03:54.060 next week? Like, are these things real? Should I be trying to prophesy over people? Should I be

00:03:59.400 laying hands on people? Should I be looking at this stuff skeptically or is it because I lack faith?

00:04:05.480 So a lot of people are asking these questions and it centers on this debate between continuationism

00:04:11.860 and cessationism that has been going on for a long time. Now, as you know, if you have listened to this

00:04:18.380 podcast for any amount of time, I consider myself a reformed Christian. So a reformed Protestant,

00:04:24.320 specifically a reformed Southern Baptist. I am a Calvinist. Calvinist isn't a denomination.

00:04:31.220 That's another podcast episode I need to do about the different denominations and what they believe

00:04:35.680 as well as the different Bible translations. These are all things that I'm asked about a lot,

00:04:39.460 but I wanted to address this one today because it's such a pressing question and such a pervasive

00:04:45.340 problem and confusion that I see happening in young Christianity. But I am a reformed Southern

00:04:52.560 Baptist Calvinist. If you don't know what that means, if you don't know what it means to be

00:04:57.160 reformed, you can go back and listen to an episode that I did in the summer of 2019 to almost a year

00:05:03.120 ago called Five Solas. And that will tell you, that will give you a pretty good briefing of what it

00:05:09.740 means to be reformed. So the reason why this is so pressing is because Bethel Church specifically

00:05:21.340 is extremely continuationist, if you can even call it that. It's extremely what you would call

00:05:27.080 Pentecostal in its leanings. It is on what I would say is on the pretty far end of the

00:05:33.880 continuationist spectrum. If you haven't heard the testimony of Lindsay Davis on the podcast

00:05:39.340 Cultish, I really encourage you to do that. Even if you're a fan of Bethel, like just hear what she

00:05:44.540 has to say. She can give you insight from an insider's perspective on what goes on there and her

00:05:50.420 experience there. Like I said, I did an episode on wake up all of in that situation. So you can go

00:05:56.400 back and listen to that if you're interested in it. But as a reformed Christian, I am on the other

00:06:01.580 end of the spectrum. Not the extreme end. I don't even know if you can call it the extreme end of

00:06:08.340 the cessationist spectrum. But I am a cessationist. Most reformed Christians are, though not all. And I

00:06:14.860 will explain my reasoning behind that and the theological differences between the two. And while

00:06:20.120 I'm doing that, I'm going to take a detour and explain specifically why Bethel Church is dangerous in

00:06:27.520 their theology. Not because primarily because of their continuationism, but because their continuationism

00:06:34.100 led them down a bad path, it seems like, to being a very mystical place. But before you get defensive

00:06:42.960 and before you get angry, just hear me out and listen to the part where I actually talk about that.

00:06:48.520 So just to reiterate, this disagreement that we have, though, on cessationism and continuationism

00:06:54.720 alone is not a salvation issue. So we agree. We can agree that we are saved by grace through faith

00:07:02.840 in Jesus Christ and still disagree on continuationism versus cessationism. So let's talk more thoroughly

00:07:10.280 about what each stance represents, what those who hold to these positions actually believe and why.

00:07:16.300 And to do that, we need to define our terms. So cessationism versus continuationism is, again,

00:07:22.740 about the miraculous gifts and whether they have ceased, which is what cessationism holds,

00:07:28.120 or whether they continue, which is what continuationism holds. Now, what are miraculous

00:07:34.020 gifts? What are charismatic gifts? For that, we go to 1 Corinthians 12, 4 through 11. Now,

00:07:40.320 there are a variety of gifts. The Bible says this is God through Paul to the church at Corinth,

00:07:45.240 but the same spirit. And there are varieties of service, but the same Lord. And there are varieties

00:07:50.040 of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the

00:07:55.680 manifestation of the spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the spirit,

00:07:59.880 the utterance of wisdom. And to another, the utterance of knowledge, according to the same

00:08:03.720 spirit. To another, faith by the same spirit. To another, gifts of healing by the one spirit.

00:08:09.060 To another, the work of miracles. To another, prophecy. To another, the ability to distinguish between

00:08:14.200 spirits. To another, various kinds of tongues. To another, the interpretation of tongues. All these

00:08:19.920 are empowered by one and the same spirit who apportions to each one individually as to each

00:08:26.280 one individually as he wills. And then continuing with, with 1 Corinthians 14, 1 through 5, pursue love

00:08:34.860 and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue

00:08:40.580 speaks not to men, but to God. For no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the spirit. On the

00:08:46.320 other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and

00:08:51.020 consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the

00:08:57.060 church. Now, I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is

00:09:02.660 greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets so that the church may be built up.

00:09:07.800 So the charismatic gifts are typically inclusive of prophecy, uh, forth telling prophecy or foretelling

00:09:15.700 prophecy. So, uh, prophecy that is foretelling the future. These are the charismatic gifts speaking

00:09:22.560 in tongues, healing, typically the laying on of hands to accomplish miraculous healing and other

00:09:28.440 miracles. The continuationist view reads this passage in others and says, this is crystal clear.

00:09:35.360 God through Paul says, these are gifts that the Holy Spirit has endowed to the church and he is

00:09:40.880 telling us to eagerly pursue them. So if we hold a high view of scripture, the continuationist might

00:09:47.180 say, as all Christians should, why would we discount or diminish these passages or determine them to be

00:09:54.260 expired? Which is a really great question. Continuationists hold that these gifts have existed and have

00:10:00.700 never stopped existing since the day of Pentecost, which is described in acts two. That's where you

00:10:06.400 get the term of Pentecostal church, which is charismatic. So, uh, acts two one verses one

00:10:12.740 through four says this when the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.

00:10:18.020 And suddenly there came from heaven, a sound like a mighty rushing wind. And it filled the entire house

00:10:23.220 where they were sitting and divided tongues of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.

00:10:28.940 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave

00:10:33.860 them utterance. So this was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to all believers. In John 14, 26,

00:10:40.880 Jesus says this, but the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach

00:10:46.880 you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Acts 1, 5, in Acts 1, 5,

00:10:53.080 Jesus says, believers are baptized with the Holy Spirit. Acts 1, 8 quotes Jesus saying this,

00:10:58.280 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you will be my witnesses in

00:11:03.640 Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth. So the Holy Spirit is a person of

00:11:10.840 the Trinity, the third person of the Trinity, an equal person of the triune Godhead who came to be

00:11:16.560 with believers in the early church after Jesus's death and resurrection, as he had promised. Although it

00:11:22.380 is important to know that the Holy note that the Holy Spirit has always existed and has been with God's

00:11:27.560 people, Mark 12, 36 says that David spoke in the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit, according to Jesus,

00:11:33.420 is our teacher. He is our reminder. He is a giver of power. Multiple times throughout Acts, we read about

00:11:40.520 saying something in the Holy Spirit, being filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit falling on the

00:11:47.460 early church so that they possessed the Holy Spirit. There are other things the Bible says that the Holy Spirit

00:11:54.160 is such as the guarantee of our inheritance in Christ. As Ephesians 1, 14 says, literally the down

00:12:01.220 payment on the inheritance that we will receive one day when we are with Christ. 1 Corinthians 6, 19 says,

00:12:08.260 our bodies are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1, 21, for no prophecy was ever produced by

00:12:14.700 the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So throughout the

00:12:21.200 New Testament, what you will see is that the Holy Spirit is a comforter, a giver of wisdom, our source

00:12:26.980 of power and strength and perseverance. He gives us boldness. He gives us belief. He gives words to speak

00:12:34.200 that is in alignment with God's will and the gospel of Christ. He is our assurance of our salvation. He is a

00:12:41.180 teacher, a reminder, a helper. He dwells in believers and produces fruit in us, which Galatians 5, 22 through 23 says

00:12:49.040 is, but the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

00:12:55.160 gentleness, self-control. Hebrews 2, 4 says that God bore witness to the truth of salvation through

00:13:01.760 Christ through, quote, signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed

00:13:08.020 according to his will. And this verse brings us back to our original passage that we started out

00:13:14.960 with when we started discussing continuationism. First Corinthians 12, 4 through 11, the Hebrews

00:13:19.800 passage says that God authenticated the gospel through miracles and signs and gifts of the Holy

00:13:25.460 Spirit. What are the gifts of the Holy Spirit? The first Corinthians passage told us to one is given

00:13:32.080 through the spirit, the utterance of wisdom, the utterance of knowledge, another faith by the same

00:13:37.260 spirit, another gift of healing, the working of miracles, prophecy, the ability to distinguish

00:13:42.240 spirits, other kinds of tongues, the interpretation of tongues, all empowered by the same Holy Spirit.

00:13:48.700 So the continuationist would read all of this and say, believers obviously still have the Holy Spirit.

00:13:55.920 We read that throughout the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is God. God doesn't change. The Holy Spirit

00:14:02.460 is described in scripture as being the channel by which these gifts are given. The empowerment of these

00:14:09.460 gifts are given through the Holy Spirit. Why wouldn't God through his same Holy Spirit, which is alive in

00:14:16.580 believers today, still perform these same gifts and same miracles through his church. And so continuationists

00:14:23.260 aiming to heed scripture, do what God through Paul tells the church in Corinth to do, earnestly desire the

00:14:30.880 spiritual gifts, especially prophecy, which the Bible says is done for the upbuilding of the church, for the

00:14:36.720 edification of the church. John Piper, who served as a resource that I turned to time and again, I love

00:14:43.320 his podcast, Ask Pastor John. I turned to him time and again for my theological questions. He holds this

00:14:49.420 view. He is what I would call a cautious continuationist. He has stated that he believes in and prays for

00:14:56.000 prophetic power when he speaks to say things that are of the Holy Spirit, but aren't necessarily, you know, in his

00:15:03.020 notes or even written down in the Bible. Wayne Grudem, another person whom I turn to as a resource,

00:15:10.860 his two books, Politics According to the Bible and Systematic Theology have been hugely helpful to me.

00:15:16.380 He also holds the view of John Piper. These are two who I would call cautious continuationists who are

00:15:23.640 absolutely in line with biblical theology and they hold to continuationism. So there are reformed people.

00:15:30.520 They are reformed. There are reformed people who are continuationist. Then there are other

00:15:35.800 continuationist charismatic churches who not only hold that these miraculous spiritual gifts are

00:15:42.780 still being given to the church and that we should pursue them, but they pursue them, teach them, and

00:15:48.420 display them in a way that does not reflect scripture, but instead reflects superstition and therefore

00:15:55.120 leads people away from the gospel of Christ. This is what we see in so-called word of faith churches,

00:16:02.400 the heretical churches that preach a message of name it and claim it. You've probably heard that term

00:16:07.800 before. I name what I want and God gives it to me because of my faith. This is a false prosperity

00:16:14.920 gospel that treats God as some sort of genie rather than who he actually is, the God of the universe.

00:16:22.600 It treats God as someone who gives people a lot more power than we actually have and views people

00:16:30.180 as much more entitled to material blessings than we actually are. This word of faith movement,

00:16:36.540 if you will, was born out of 20th century Pentecostalism, which sought to make the church reflect

00:16:42.940 what it was at the time of Pentecost that we read about in Acts where people were performing signs and

00:16:49.920 wonders through the Holy Spirit. This is, as you know, continuationism, the full form of

00:16:55.380 continuationism. This was a departure when this movement was happening in the 20th century and

00:17:01.620 still today is a departure from Orthodox church doctrine. And it was and is a mixture of biblical

00:17:09.080 theology and mysticism. It is extremely new age. As we've talked about many times on this podcast,

00:17:15.700 New Age philosophy regards humans, not as just made in God's image and therefore, or not at all

00:17:21.880 made in God's image and therefore valuable, but inherently sinful in need of a savior.

00:17:26.920 The New Age views us as actual gods and goddesses, inherently flawless and good deep down inside.

00:17:33.680 The word of faith takes on parts of that New Age idea, believing that we are inherently good deep down,

00:17:39.940 that we are powerful. Our faith unleashes this power inside all of us to do things like raise the dead,

00:17:47.340 heal sickness, gain wealth, etc. GotQuestions.org is a really great resource. I know it might sound

00:17:54.440 like a hokey site, but it's really not. It's a really great and thorough resource for theological

00:17:59.840 questions. And it describes a word of faith in this way. Word of faith claims that God created humans

00:18:07.440 in his literal physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to

00:18:13.100 call things into existence by using faith force. After the fall, humans took on Satan's nature and

00:18:18.780 lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave

00:18:24.580 up his divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon himself, went to hell,

00:18:30.380 was born again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to

00:18:34.900 replicate the incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally

00:18:40.460 intended. That's the word of faith. It continues by saying, following the natural progression of

00:18:46.320 these teachings as little gods, we again have the ability to manipulate the faith force and become

00:18:52.020 prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith and are

00:18:58.960 remedied by confession, claiming God's promises for oneself into existence. Simply put, the word of

00:19:05.400 faith movement exalts man to God's status and reduces God to man's status. Now that you are hearing

00:19:11.060 this, you have probably heard some pastors that you know of who are very popular. They have spouted this

00:19:16.420 kind of heretical nonsense. So some examples of that would be false teachers like Kenneth Copeland and

00:19:22.880 Benny Hinn. Now, now apparently Benny Hinn has repented, which is wonderful, but these people are

00:19:28.480 known as health and wealth or word of faith, name it and claim it preachers who preach a form of

00:19:34.760 superstition and mysticism that is not biblical Christianity, that does not represent the Bible,

00:19:41.480 that does not represent the gospel. GotQuestions.org lists some references that go against the doctrine,

00:19:46.980 this doctrine of word of faith saying this, countering word of faith teaching is a simple matter of reading

00:19:52.020 in the Bible. God alone is the sovereign creator of the universe, Genesis 1, 3, and does not need

00:19:57.440 faith. He is the object of faith, Mark 11, 12. God is spirit and does not have a physical body,

00:20:03.640 John 4, 24. Man was created in the image of God, Genesis 1, 26 and 27, but this does not make him a

00:20:10.900 little God or divine. Only God has a divine nature, Galatians 4, 8. Christ is eternal, the only begotten son

00:20:17.680 and the only incarnation of God, John 1, 1. In him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily,

00:20:23.420 Colossians 2, 9. By becoming a man, Jesus gave up the glory of heaven, but not his divinity,

00:20:28.320 Philippians 2, 6 through 7. Though he did not choose, though he did choose to withhold his power

00:20:33.600 while walking the earth as man. And here's where we get a little controversial. Bethel Church

00:20:40.920 falls into this category of word of faith heretical teaching. Bethel is not wrong on everything. I

00:20:49.540 appreciate their strong stance on marriage, on abortion, on other hot button issues that quite

00:20:54.700 frankly a lot of non-charismatic churches are silent on. They won't even touch because they're

00:20:59.680 afraid of offending people. So I appreciate, I truly do, and applaud them for their integrity when

00:21:05.040 it comes to these topics that so many people won't even approach. However, as I said, I highly

00:21:10.300 encourage you to go back and listen to the Lindsay Davis testimony, as well as to read the words of

00:21:15.840 the pastor of Bethel Church, Bill Johnson, whom congregants affectionately refer to as Papa Bill.

00:21:21.580 Now, I also would refer you to the documentary American Gospel. It's on Amazon Prime. It is on,

00:21:28.780 there's an abbreviated version on YouTube, American Gospel, Christ Crucified. Could not recommend it

00:21:33.020 more. Please go watch it, especially if you are offended by what I'm saying. But we can go to the

00:21:37.960 pastor of Bethel Church himself, Bill Johnson, to see some of the things that they believe rather

00:21:42.280 than trying to, you know, put words in their mouth. So Bill Johnson believes, if you read his work,

00:21:46.900 that signs and wonders, what we're talking about here, are the essential goal of the church. So here

00:21:52.180 are some quotes from his book, When Heaven Invades Earth. God wants to take us farther. This is what he

00:21:58.180 says. God wants to take us farther, and we can only get there by following signs. Our present

00:22:03.540 understanding of scripture can only take us so far. He says we should stop fixating on our need to

00:22:09.880 protect ourselves from deception. Rather, our hunger for him must be seen in our lustful pursuit

00:22:17.300 of spiritual gifts. Johnson says to follow Jesus, we must be willing to follow off the map to go beyond

00:22:24.400 what we know. So Johnson believes that Jesus set aside his divinity when he came to earth, as all false

00:22:32.080 word of faith teachers do. He wrote this, Jesus laid aside his divinity as he sought to fulfill the

00:22:38.960 assignment given to him by the Father. But Colossians 2, 9 says, for in him, in Jesus, the whole fullness

00:22:45.340 of deity dwells bodily. So the implications, how this connects together, the implications of Johnson's

00:22:52.280 assertion is that because Jesus set aside his divinity and performed miracles, we can perform all the

00:22:59.060 same miracles that Jesus did. That's actually something that he wrote in the book, When Heaven

00:23:03.160 Invades Earth. But that line of reasoning also means that we, too, can live perfectly sinful lives. Jesus

00:23:10.080 did so while laying aside his divinity, so we must be able to as well, the logic goes. But Romans 7, 14

00:23:16.580 through 24 makes really clear that human beings, Christians, will always wrestle with sin. We are made

00:23:21.960 righteous because of and in Christ, but we ourselves will still sin, even though our goal through the Holy

00:23:27.720 Spirit is to sin less and less as our lives go on to be sanctified and to be conformed to Christ.

00:23:34.300 But he doesn't just believe, Johnson doesn't just believe, the head of Bethel Church, that Christians

00:23:39.060 can and should become perfect in this life. He also believes that we should be without sickness and

00:23:45.000 poverty. He writes this, Jesus destroyed the power of sin, sickness, and poverty through his redemptive

00:23:51.740 work on the cross. In Adam and Eve's commission to subdue the earth, they were without sickness,

00:23:56.080 poverty, and sin. Now that we are restored to his original purpose, should we expect anything

00:24:01.560 less? After all, this is called the better covenant. First, if Jesus lay aside his divinity

00:24:10.000 on earth, then there is no redemptive work of the cross. So if Jesus is just a person who

00:24:15.300 died, who, like you and me, can be sinless and perform miracles, then he is not the spotless

00:24:21.160 land that God promised. He is not enough to eternally reconcile us to a holy God. Only

00:24:27.400 the perfect sacrifice of God is enough to satisfy the perfect wrath of God. Second, Jesus did not

00:24:35.480 destroy sickness and poverty. Only on the other side of eternity will we enjoy sinlessness, wholeness,

00:24:43.040 and unconditional abundance in Christ. Second Corinthians 2, 9-10 says, Therefore, I will

00:24:49.300 boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

00:24:55.240 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions,

00:25:01.580 and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Paul went through hardship and calamity

00:25:06.720 and weakness. All of the apostles did. Christians throughout history have. Christians right now,

00:25:11.660 throughout the world, are in poverty, are sick, are facing persecution. Is their faith not genuine?

00:25:18.420 Because Bill Johnson says if we had more faith and went off the map, they would experience God more

00:25:24.020 fully. Then there was an article. There was an article that was written by the Gospel Coalition

00:25:29.000 Australia by Stephen Tan that analyzes the theology of Bethel. He writes this,

00:25:35.580 The pursuit of signs and wonders has led to a litany of bizarre and sometimes blasphemous spiritual

00:25:40.860 practices at Bethel. Perhaps the most infamous example of this is their claim that the glory cloud

00:25:47.040 of God's Shekinah presence often manifests itself in their worship services. You can find videos on

00:25:54.760 YouTube of the, quote, glory cloud, which is made up of gold dust that looks suspiciously like the

00:26:00.080 glitter that you can purchase at your local arts and crafts store. They also report feathers appearing in

00:26:05.980 their worship services, which they claim belong to angels. Benny Johnson, Bill Johnson's wife,

00:26:11.160 and other Bethel leaders practice what is called grave sucking or grave soaking, where they lay atop the

00:26:17.780 graves of famous dead Christians to suck the anointing that they believe is contained in their bones.

00:26:25.120 Okay? Benny posted a picture on social media of herself soaking at C.S. Lewis's grave, among others.

00:26:32.220 Okay, guys. Do I need to explain how this is unbiblical? All I think I need to say is that this is not in the

00:26:40.040 Bible. At Bethel, the article goes on that at Bethel, a myriad of practices is encouraged under the banner of,

00:26:48.360 quote, prophetic. This includes prophetic cards, which are similar to tarot cards and are practiced by an

00:26:54.400 associated ministry in Melbourne. It also includes prophetic dancing, painting, drumming, and even destiny

00:27:01.080 pants that will purportedly enhance your awareness of God's presence and help you be a walking encounter

00:27:07.600 of heaven's message to those around you. Okay. So I will, by the way, I will include the link of this

00:27:15.060 article in the description of this episode. So you guys can go to the article and go to the sources for

00:27:19.960 all of these claims. So you don't think that I'm just pulling these out of thin air. There's more.

00:27:25.120 People in the Bethel movement believe that raising the dead should be something we aspire to.

00:27:29.280 As a result, some Bethel students formed a dead raising team. They go to the morgue to practice

00:27:35.280 raising the dead. They also listen to the radio and try to beat ambulances to accidents to raise

00:27:41.880 the dead or heal the injured before the ambulance arrives. From all accounts, they have yet to raise

00:27:46.640 their first corpse. Christianity Today reports that in 2008, two Bethel students were involved in

00:27:52.480 an accident that left a man stricken at the base of a 200-foot cliff. The students believed that the

00:27:57.400 man had died. And so they tried to resurrect him by prayer. They waited until the next morning to

00:28:02.200 call emergency services. Thankfully, the man survived, but unfortunately he remains paralyzed.

00:28:08.140 This is also very tragically what occurred with the wake up all of phenomenon that happened a few

00:28:13.380 months ago. They tried to rally the rest of social media and their church Christians around the world

00:28:20.380 to declare and demand resurrection of this poor, precious baby girl. And Bill Johnson said at the

00:28:28.040 time on social media that some people don't die in God's timing. So in other words, God isn't

00:28:34.900 sovereign. The article goes on to say, Bethel leaders Bill Johnson and Chris Vallotton teach the physics of

00:28:42.820 heaven, which is a way to explore the mysteries of God hidden in sound, light, vibrations, frequencies,

00:28:48.060 energy, and quantum physics. They allege that God uses these different expressions of his creation

00:28:53.180 to usher us into the fullness of Pentecost. Again, totally and completely unbiblical. Now,

00:28:59.600 did God create physics? Can we enjoy him and glorify him through the study of physics? Yes. But are we

00:29:05.660 channeling him through certain energies and frequencies? No. This is new age. And unfortunately,

00:29:11.040 this is the direction of much, not all, but much of Pentecostalism. It is about stirring up your

00:29:17.700 emotions, giving you a spiritual, emotional experience, and unfortunately introducing you

00:29:23.860 to a God who does not exist. A God who is a genie, a God who is elusive, who is a mystic rather than the

00:29:33.720 preeminent creator of the universe who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Bethel Church,

00:29:39.700 while I'm sure they have lots of wonderful people, is led by someone who preaches a false gospel,

00:29:46.880 which has led, unfortunately, to superstitious false practices. His overemphasis on signs and wonders

00:29:54.760 and miracles has led the church into new age mysticism that doesn't look like biblical Christianity

00:30:01.440 and doesn't look like the early church that they say that they're trying to emulate. Now, Bethel,

00:30:08.080 as I've said, and I just want to reiterate, Bethel is not an example of all continuationism or all

00:30:14.940 continuationists. Like I said, John Piper and Wayne Grudem, two very solid people and other very solid

00:30:21.420 biblical reformed people believe in the continuation of gifts. But the distinctions, I would say, are

00:30:28.540 one, they are, like I said, what I would call cautious continuationists. You are probably not going

00:30:35.940 to see people speaking in tongues and gatherings that they are a part of, but they believe that people

00:30:41.060 can still do so today. And John Piper has said that he pursues and prays for the power of prophecy to

00:30:49.300 prophesy. The second distinction, I would say, is that biblical continuationists, so people who believe

00:30:55.060 the word of God is inerrant and go to the word of God as their sole source of wisdom, these kind of

00:31:02.480 continuationists hold to the orderly directives concerning spiritual gifts found in the Bible.

00:31:08.140 So in 1 Corinthians 14, that passage that we keep going back to, God through Paul says exactly,

00:31:14.360 actually, it's a couple chapters later than the 1 Corinthians 12 passage we originally talked about,

00:31:19.660 but God through Paul says exactly how speaking in tongues and prophesying should be done if you hold

00:31:25.380 to the idea that they are still being done today. There is an order. There are rules. We read from

00:31:30.520 Genesis through Revelation and see in creation today that God is a God of order. He is a God of intention.

00:31:36.440 He isn't a God of randomness or cosmic mysticism or the new age. He is an arranger. He is an orderer.

00:31:44.460 He is an organizer. He does things purposely. He asks us to do things purposely and with intention and

00:31:51.160 in order that he ordains. So if you are to hold to the continuationist view and be in line with

00:31:59.100 scripture, there will be an orderliness to the expression of these gifts. And they will, that's

00:32:07.200 A and B, they will not be the central message that you preach. They will not be central to the gospel

00:32:14.060 of salvation. You will not pretend that pursuing these gifts is the ultimate expression of being a

00:32:20.740 follower of Christ is that is not biblical. However, as I mentioned at the top, I am not a continuationist.

00:32:27.400 Love John Piper. Love Wayne Grudem. Love a lot of people who are continuationists and learn from

00:32:32.300 them. I am not a continuationist. I am a cessationist. I believe that the charismatic

00:32:37.960 gifts ended with the apostolic age. This is the orthodox view that the church has held for centuries.

00:32:43.920 This is not, this is not mean that I believe that God cannot perform miracles or even that he doesn't

00:32:49.480 perform miracles. I believe he can and does, but that performing miracles such as speaking in tongues

00:32:55.120 and miraculous healing or prophesying the future are not current part of the Christian ministry.

00:33:02.980 Again, doesn't mean we don't pray for miracles and that God doesn't do them, but we believe these

00:33:08.820 charismatic gifts performed by the spirit through people have ceased. And here is why. Miracles

00:33:15.500 performed by God through people are shown throughout the Bible. We know that. They are always performed

00:33:22.400 to authenticate the message of the messenger. The miracles that God performed through Moses

00:33:27.880 authenticated his message to Pharaoh, Elijah, Jesus, the apostles, the early church, all of these

00:33:34.380 performed miracles as authentication of God's message delivered through them. And in Jesus's case,

00:33:41.040 authenticating his own identity as God. In the early church, the miraculous gifts of speaking in tongues

00:33:47.240 and healing and wonders were used in the same way to authenticate the gospel to non-believers.

00:33:53.360 And prophecy was used to build up the church, but the charismatic or miraculous gifts were not

00:34:00.040 mentioned in later letters and later books of the Bible. The mention of speaking in tongues stops.

00:34:05.920 Healing apparently becomes less frequent as the epistles go on. GotQuestions.org again,

00:34:12.420 lists examples of this. The apostle Paul who raised Eutychus from the dead in Acts 20 did not heal

00:34:19.320 Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4, Timothy in 1 Timothy 5, or even himself

00:34:29.980 2 Corinthians 12. The reasons for Paul's failures to heal are one, the gift was never intended to make

00:34:36.500 every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship. And two, the authority of the apostles had been

00:34:41.980 sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary. These miraculous gifts were also

00:34:48.680 not mentioned in the post-apistolic writings of ancient church fathers like Justin the Martyr

00:34:53.640 and Augustine. Now, I will note that prophecy doesn't always mean predicting the future. So not

00:35:00.220 everyone who says that they are prophesying or that they believe in prophecy is saying that they are

00:35:04.900 foretelling the future, but that maybe that they are foretelling the word of God. And that's what it

00:35:10.420 means. Prophecy in the Greek means to speak forth. So it can just mean preaching, telling the truth

00:35:15.500 about the word of God, which of course, as cessationists, we believe, we still believe happens

00:35:20.660 and is necessary and is central to Christian ministry. But we do not believe that God is

00:35:25.640 revealing himself in particular or extra biblical ways to people who claim to have a certain word for

00:35:32.800 you that is not found in the word of God, telling you something that is going to happen in the future

00:35:37.660 that they claim is from God. God grants wisdom to teach and to explain his word and the gospel.

00:35:44.060 Yes, through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit offers direction, offers insight, but we do not believe,

00:35:49.500 cessationists do not believe that God is still adding on to his word, to the canon, and that we have to

00:35:56.760 quote, go off the map, as Bill Johnson of Bethel says. To believe that, you have to believe that

00:36:02.700 scripture is not sufficient. And you will be constantly anxious, looking for new revelation,

00:36:08.040 and you will have no way to verify this new revelation, except by the proclamation of the

00:36:12.940 person who is giving this proclamation and this prophecy. As it is, all preaching should be

00:36:20.580 weighed against the word of God. The canon is closed. We don't need anything additional. Of course,

00:36:28.360 we listen to wisdom and we listen to insight and we listen to exegetical preaching, but it all goes

00:36:33.940 back and is verified by the word of God. But if someone gives you a special word that cannot be

00:36:38.680 verified by the word of God, but is in an effort to add something to the word of God, you have nothing

00:36:43.480 to verify it by. And then you are left waiting in this weird new age world that unfortunately some

00:36:49.520 continuationist churches have found themselves in and have led congregants to, and unfortunately have led

00:36:57.200 them also to a false gospel. So to reiterate, there are continuationist Christians, continuationist

00:37:04.840 churches that are striving to be biblical, that believe in sola scriptura, believe in the inerrancy

00:37:10.960 of God's word that we agree on on 99% of stuff. We just disagree on that. And then you've also got

00:37:16.980 people who are on the far end of the spectrum who have really gone off the deep end into preaching

00:37:21.420 something that is totally not biblical because they have centralized these signs and wonders and taken

00:37:26.540 them out of their biblical context and continued them unbiblically. And then of course, I'm sure

00:37:33.440 you have other side of the cessationist spectrum. If you even want to call it that people, maybe who

00:37:38.740 deny the power of the Holy Spirit altogether, that would also be unbiblical. The Holy Spirit

00:37:42.920 cessationists know is real and powerful and does all of the things that Jesus says that the Holy Spirit

00:37:49.120 is and is going to do to help us, to teach us, to remind us, to comfort us and strengthen us. So

00:37:54.100 I hope that that makes sense. Again, we could go into so many different parts of this and there are so

00:37:58.720 many awesome resources out there. There's a resource about this by Wayne Grudem. Let's see if I can

00:38:04.960 pull up the name. Okay. Our miraculous gifts for today for views by Wayne Grudem. So if you are

00:38:12.380 interested in knowing more about that, check it out and let me know if you have any questions. I'll see

00:38:16.580 you guys back here on Wednesday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 04, 2020

Ep 246 ｜ Speaking in Tongues & Raising the Dead

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