Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 257 ｜ Leaving the Prosperity Gospel Behind and the Deconversion of Christians ｜ Guest： Costi Hinn

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, happy Monday.

00:00:11.560 Welcome to Relatable.

00:00:12.600 I hope you all had a good weekend.

00:00:14.260 I am so excited about today's conversation.

00:00:16.840 I am going to be talking to Kosti Hinn.

00:00:19.280 He is a pastor in Arizona.

00:00:21.440 He is also the author of the book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel.

00:00:25.480 He is the nephew of Benny Hinn, who is a very famous and has been a very famous for a long

00:00:32.080 time prosperity preacher.

00:00:33.880 Kosti grew up around all of that.

00:00:35.620 You're going to hear his testimony, and we're also going to talk about the prosperity gospel.

00:00:41.020 We're going to talk a little bit about this trend of deconversion that we talked about

00:00:44.780 some on Friday, and I'm so excited about that.

00:00:47.560 Let me play you a little clip of Benny Hinn, just so you can kind of have some context for

00:00:53.240 how Kosti Hinn, our guest today, grew up.

00:00:57.040 You may not understand this.

00:00:58.580 I don't either.

00:01:01.360 I don't either.

00:01:04.140 But when the Lord talks to me, I obey him.

00:01:06.440 It's just that simple.

00:01:07.360 There's nothing more to it. 0.95

00:01:08.660 Cancer, pastor! 0.99

00:01:11.580 Cancer! 0.98

00:01:11.900 Cancer!

00:01:12.640 All the pain is gone in his chest!

00:01:16.300 We break it in the name of the Lord!

00:01:18.680 Are you ready, guys?

00:01:21.660 Fire!

00:01:22.140 Take it!

00:01:23.040 Take it!

00:01:23.100 Take it!

00:01:23.380 Take it!

00:01:23.940 Take it!

00:01:24.940 Take it!

00:01:25.940 Take it!

00:01:26.940 Father, in Jesus' name, heal those people tonight.

00:01:44.040 In Jesus' name, heal those people tonight, Lord.

00:01:47.820 Open!

00:01:49.060 Open!

00:01:49.420 Pick it up!

00:01:51.120 She's getting it!

00:01:53.200 Ladies, can you hear me? 1.00

00:01:55.620 Can you hear me?

00:01:56.480 Yes!

00:01:56.860 Can you hear me?

00:01:58.020 Yeah, yeah, yeah!

00:02:02.240 So that is Benny Hinn.

00:02:05.640 That is the theology that surrounded Kosti Hinn and that kind of characterized his life growing

00:02:13.000 up.

00:02:13.360 And so this is going to be a really awesome conversation.

00:02:15.640 Okay, without further ado, here is my friend Kosti Hinn.

00:02:20.100 Kosti, thank you so much for joining me.

00:02:23.160 Good to be with you, Allie.

00:02:24.380 Thanks for having me.

00:02:25.480 So for those who don't know, will you tell them who you are and what you do?

00:02:29.320 Yes, my name is Kosti Hinn.

00:02:32.680 I am a pastor at a church in Gilbert, Arizona now.

00:02:36.060 And then before this, we just moved here last summer.

00:02:38.600 Perfect time to move to Arizona when it's 109 in the summer.

00:02:41.880 Perfect.

00:02:42.160 We moved from Orange County.

00:02:44.980 I was pastoring in a church there in the Irvine, California area.

00:02:50.040 And so that's where we are now.

00:02:52.380 And then I'm a dad and a husband.

00:02:53.660 So we've got four kids, a new baby, and I've got an amazing wife who is a great teammate

00:02:59.060 in life and ministry.

00:03:00.820 Four kids, five and under.

00:03:03.080 So you're not busy.

00:03:04.140 You're not busy at all.

00:03:05.340 You have lots of free time, I'm sure.

00:03:07.480 Yeah, not at all.

00:03:08.220 I mean, I go from morning to night and do whatever I want.

00:03:11.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:13.180 So you have a very interesting testimony.

00:03:15.900 And I would like you to start by telling us kind of how your faith journey started.

00:03:24.220 What was your upbringing like?

00:03:26.660 Yeah, so I grew up in the prosperity gospel and the word of faith movement and in the center

00:03:31.700 of it because of who my family is and some of my family members.

00:03:35.420 So my dad's a pastor.

00:03:37.080 So I grew up a pastor's kid.

00:03:38.300 And then my uncle is more kind of well-known in those circles.

00:03:42.420 His name is Benny.

00:03:43.460 So we're the Hinn family.

00:03:44.960 So Benny Hinn.

00:03:46.220 And I grew up around the ministry.

00:03:48.640 And then also because my dad and him were so close and they worked together a lot.

00:03:52.340 I grew up riding on the coattails of it as a young man.

00:03:55.440 And then eventually worked with my uncle, worked in that whole, that world, believed it, taught

00:04:03.200 it, lived it.

00:04:04.440 And so life, very early, teenage years, younger years, again, was riding on the coattails of

00:04:09.920 my older family members who were sort of the generals, if you will, the patriarchs of the

00:04:13.640 family.

00:04:14.460 And in a Middle Eastern family, really traditional, you name your firstborn son after your father.

00:04:19.960 So I'm named after my grandfather.

00:04:21.200 And then I'm the oldest Kosti in the family.

00:04:23.620 So there's sort of this aura, supposed to be some aura or like anointing on my life that I'm

00:04:28.540 the first in the next generation.

00:04:29.960 So I'm going to take the mantle, if you will, sort of like Elijah and Elisha.

00:04:35.120 And then I'm going to take the ministry and the whole, whatever, the family name and the

00:04:40.160 healing power of God to the next level, to the next generation.

00:04:43.240 The only problem was that didn't actually happen over the years throughout different moments in my

00:04:49.200 life, I began to question things.

00:04:51.080 And then I would look at the Bible, I'd look at what we taught, and those things didn't match.

00:04:54.940 I was always afraid to question because we were taught, touch not the Lord's anointed.

00:04:59.020 You don't ever speak against the man of God.

00:05:01.240 You don't even question.

00:05:02.620 You just follow and you are silent about it.

00:05:06.280 So in that regard, I never said anything, but I had a lot of thoughts.

00:05:09.580 And then the Lord just put these people in my life that asked questions.

00:05:13.700 They loved me enough to tell me the hard truth.

00:05:15.880 They didn't tiptoe around me, and that was I had a college coach.

00:05:20.060 I played baseball at Dallas Baptist University, and he was instrumental in my life, telling

00:05:24.800 me about the sovereignty of God and the gospel and truth.

00:05:27.620 And then my now wife, who at the time was my girlfriend and wasn't really getting it.

00:05:34.260 And by getting it, I mean my family wanted her to speak in tongues and to have to be spirit

00:05:39.520 filled.

00:05:39.860 And she had to fall and kind of fall at the feet, so to speak, of the big generals in the

00:05:44.140 family.

00:05:44.400 That wasn't working.

00:05:46.740 And then I eventually had a pastor in my life who came alongside me and discipled me.

00:05:51.200 So I went from flying on a Gulfstream jet, staying in the nicest hotels in the world,

00:05:57.040 like in Dubai, the Burj Al Arab, the hotel that's shaped like a big sail.

00:06:01.480 We stayed there in the Royal Suite, 25K US a night.

00:06:04.760 That was normal for me.

00:06:06.100 That was just life.

00:06:07.800 And you go to London and stay at the Lansboro, and you go to Ritz, the Ritz in Paris.

00:06:12.460 We just kind of lived like LeBron, like rock stars.

00:06:16.300 And yet it was all on donations.

00:06:18.420 It was all supposed to be sort of the blessed life or your best life now, Osteen style.

00:06:24.800 And that was the results of ministry.

00:06:27.160 And then persecution, like the Apostle Paul and many other New Testament writers say that

00:06:31.900 Christians are going to endure, for us was, oh man, NBC did a piece on us, or Inside Edition

00:06:38.800 is investigating us.

00:06:39.980 Or that Baptist guy down the street said, we're false teachers.

00:06:44.380 Look at the devil coming against us.

00:06:46.700 Look at the way he's trying to undermine our ministry and distract us.

00:06:50.420 Man, we're going to go harder than ever.

00:06:52.040 We're going to get after this.

00:06:53.400 We are anointed.

00:06:54.140 This is just the devil trying to slow us down.

00:06:56.600 And so that was the way I viewed the whole world.

00:06:59.760 So if you were a Baptist, I'd say you were in the dead church, and we had the real power. 0.71

00:07:04.300 And if you were a Lutheran, I'd say, like, you don't even have it. 0.98

00:07:06.420 You're just off the rails.

00:07:07.920 That's the way we viewed things.

00:07:09.680 And so very elitist, very wealthy, very powerful, servants working for us.

00:07:15.600 You know, there's feather dusters involved that would, you know, dust off the Bentleys

00:07:21.940 and the Benzes before we would drive out.

00:07:23.920 I mean, just, I can tell you funny stories.

00:07:26.080 But that life, sort of Kardashian style, was our life in ministry.

00:07:31.480 And then God just absolutely obliterated in a good way my thoughts, my heart, my emotions,

00:07:38.660 my mindset, and transformed my life and my understanding of the gospel.

00:07:42.520 And I got really saved.

00:07:44.280 Right.

00:07:44.800 Were there moments before college when you had those mentors that came into your life

00:07:50.100 and really influenced you?

00:07:52.080 Were there moments growing up where, even for just a second, you said, hang on, this doesn't

00:07:59.220 feel right, or this doesn't seem right, or hang on, what does this Bible passage say?

00:08:05.040 Or was it really that you were just totally blinded by it all and completely inundated with

00:08:10.940 this lifestyle up until someone kind of metaphorically shook you by the shoulders and said, here's

00:08:17.860 the true gospel?

00:08:19.680 Yeah, great question.

00:08:21.160 So it's a both end.

00:08:22.860 Primarily what you just said, living it, enjoying it, but then pockets of what you just described.

00:08:29.440 Moments where, gosh, you know, a little girl didn't get healed, and I'm just losing it after

00:08:34.900 the service, and I'm crying, and we know that people don't get healed.

00:08:39.100 And we would say, hey, sometimes things happen.

00:08:41.400 So it wasn't that she didn't get healed, but now my whole theology changed.

00:08:45.120 It was that we had guaranteed that if the family or if an individual or if people, whatever,

00:08:51.580 gave enough money or had enough faith, that healing was guaranteed.

00:08:55.320 So I saw wealthy people write checks for massive amounts, six-figure amounts, but then their

00:09:02.240 loved one didn't get healed.

00:09:04.140 And I'd go, God, what in the world?

00:09:06.360 We said they were going to get healed if they sowed a seed.

00:09:11.060 They sowed the seed.

00:09:12.800 We taught it's a hundredfold blessing.

00:09:14.400 You're going to have what you gave and reap what you sow.

00:09:17.140 Where is it?

00:09:18.140 And then I'm seeing brokenness.

00:09:19.620 And so those moments, they would literally shake me to my core, and I would think, what's

00:09:26.320 going on?

00:09:26.880 But then, I've often said this before, to my shame and my regret, when you see a lot of

00:09:32.860 that stuff over the years, you begin to grow numb and a bit hard.

00:09:37.660 But also, even if it does break you once in a while, it is really, really easy to forget

00:09:43.340 the brokenness that is going on in the ministry and around and the lies.

00:09:47.480 When you sit, you're behind on the leather on a Gulfstream jet, and the host, our Italian

00:09:55.400 chef comes out.

00:09:56.700 We literally had an Italian guy who made us whatever we wanted.

00:09:59.380 It was brilliant.

00:10:00.480 And he makes your favorite meal.

00:10:03.220 You don't even ask.

00:10:04.300 He puts your food down for you.

00:10:06.160 You recline.

00:10:06.940 You put a movie on.

00:10:07.960 I mean, just life on a Gulfstream.

00:10:11.260 It's so easy then to justify it and say, you know, well, I don't have all the answers.

00:10:17.480 And, you know, God is sovereign.

00:10:19.020 You know, he's in control here.

00:10:20.740 And now, all of a sudden, all those doctrines that you kind of shoved to the side, they really

00:10:24.040 help you justify things.

00:10:25.380 And you go, he's sovereign.

00:10:27.780 I'm not God.

00:10:29.060 I'm just the mediator here.

00:10:31.340 He's the one doing the healing.

00:10:33.180 But meanwhile, four hours prior, you were guaranteeing Jesus is going to show up, heal everybody if

00:10:38.720 they give their best offering.

00:10:39.960 Well, they did.

00:10:40.800 You kind of filled the coffers, and now we're out.

00:10:43.060 So that, it weighs on the conscience.

00:10:46.200 And I'm not saying I was perfect.

00:10:47.600 I'm not virtue signaling and acting like, oh, I'm so holy.

00:10:50.720 It's just a simple reality.

00:10:52.140 When you're a young guy, and God starts working in your heart, you don't want to act like a

00:10:58.220 scam artist anymore.

00:10:59.640 You just don't.

00:11:01.080 Right.

00:11:01.220 Was there a sense of, well, God wouldn't give us these material blessings if we weren't

00:11:07.500 doing something right?

00:11:08.780 Did you kind of see, or did the people around you see the blessings that it seemed like God

00:11:15.600 was giving you guys as an affirmation of the validity of your ministry?

00:11:21.660 Yes, 100%.

00:11:22.840 That's how a lot of the system is built, or the system of affirmation.

00:11:26.300 Imagine I get up, and I look at a whole bunch of people, and it doesn't matter if they're

00:11:31.480 rich, poor, if they're in the third world, the first world. 1.00

00:11:35.180 The greatest, both in a good way and a negative way, the greatest tool for manipulation that

00:11:42.940 you can use, or let's say influence when it's used well, is to say, look at my life, or look

00:11:48.340 at what I'm experiencing.

00:11:49.400 If you go to a restaurant, and you go, this food was amazing.

00:11:52.720 You've got to go there.

00:11:54.560 What do people do?

00:11:55.260 They'll go to the restaurant if you vouch for it.

00:11:57.500 Well, imagine then showing them something.

00:11:59.820 They say, that looks amazing.

00:12:00.860 You show them a picture of your food.

00:12:01.880 This is why everyone Instagrams their meals now, and every meal, they're like, look what

00:12:04.800 I'm eating, and that's great.

00:12:06.440 Deal.

00:12:07.960 But then imagine going on a stage and saying, look at my life.

00:12:13.080 I live in one of the nicest neighborhoods in all of Orange County.

00:12:16.900 I fly on a private plane.

00:12:18.620 Oh, yeah, I drive the nicest cars.

00:12:20.900 Look at my suit.

00:12:21.780 This is a $10,000 custom suit.

00:12:23.780 Do you know why God is blessing me with all this?

00:12:27.940 Because I give.

00:12:30.200 I'm a giver.

00:12:31.820 Do you know why I'm healthy?

00:12:33.000 Do you know why my children serve the Lord?

00:12:34.600 Do you know why we have the presence of God in our home every day?

00:12:37.000 Do you know why the Lord has given me a worldwide ministry?

00:12:40.020 Because you reap what you sow.

00:12:42.340 I sowed obedience.

00:12:43.920 I sowed faithfulness.

00:12:45.540 I follow God's economy and God's order.

00:12:48.400 And then I receive God's blessings.

00:12:50.100 How many of you want that?

00:12:50.960 Raise your hands right now.

00:12:51.800 The whole place raises their hands.

00:12:53.560 And then you say, if you want that anointing, I want to give it to you.

00:12:57.220 Get down here.

00:12:58.120 Bring your best offering.

00:12:59.320 And God is going to do it.

00:13:00.320 And then you sing at choir.

00:13:01.420 And you have the music go.

00:13:02.440 And the band plays.

00:13:03.300 And everyone starts feeling the emotions.

00:13:04.860 They run forward.

00:13:05.820 They pack the offering envelopes.

00:13:07.280 They write their credit card number.

00:13:09.060 And you just made yourself $400,000 or $500,000 right there.

00:13:12.140 By using your life, you get all the money.

00:13:15.400 How easy is it then to go to the next stadium or convention center or the third world? 0.98

00:13:20.640 You just made half a mil.

00:13:22.600 And now go again and do it.

00:13:24.380 Look at my life.

00:13:25.420 Look.

00:13:25.900 You're just selling constantly.

00:13:28.100 You can do it too.

00:13:28.740 Which, last point I'll make on that.

00:13:30.700 You know how celebrities, like they go to the award shows, the Grammys or whatever, and ushers up Taylor Swift.

00:13:35.520 And you can do it if you just believe.

00:13:38.200 And then all the little girls are like, oh, I'm going to be the next Taylor Swift.

00:13:40.640 They're not.

00:13:41.420 Like literally 0.00001 of you are going to be famous or even good at singing probably.

00:13:47.600 Right.

00:13:48.440 To get a deal.

00:13:49.860 But they tell everyone, if you just believe it, you can do it.

00:13:54.420 And, you know, to kind of turn it on us, I don't care if you think you're the best next Allie Stuckey or you're going to be like Allie Stuckey.

00:14:02.420 And you tell everyone, if you just believe, you could have what I have.

00:14:04.800 Probably not.

00:14:05.820 They're going to have to be smart.

00:14:07.840 The Lord's going to have to open doors.

00:14:09.140 They're going to have to know their politics, their Bible.

00:14:11.460 Also, some really good opportunities.

00:14:13.180 Then they're going to have to.

00:14:13.800 The factors are endless.

00:14:16.400 So, side note on that is, you know, we're just doing the same thing.

00:14:19.920 Getting up and making a bunch of people feel like they could have what we have so that they what?

00:14:26.480 So that they give.

00:14:27.440 Now, in the celebrity world and in our world, we might say work hard, keep at it.

00:14:31.380 And we're just trying to encourage, right?

00:14:32.940 There's a difference between encouragement and the manipulation.

00:14:35.960 But we take that concept and we use it to make a ton of money and get people to do what we want so they could have what we have.

00:14:42.660 Now, was there a lot of anger about your conversion?

00:14:48.800 You're coming into true Christianity when it happened. 0.91

00:14:51.280 If your family was inundated in this stuff for a long time and it sounds like your entire family was and probably really believed it and had invested so much time, energy and resources into this.

00:15:03.720 And what was the reaction like when you said, you know, that stuff's not true and I'm going to go this way?

00:15:10.260 Yeah, multiple family members call me and cheer it on and they'll remain nameless for now.

00:15:17.920 But they came kind of came out of hiding and said, look, we're not pastors.

00:15:23.040 We're not we're just Christians.

00:15:24.760 We talk about this stuff internally.

00:15:27.240 But as a pastor, we're so glad that you're going to speak the truth and then refute error, which is what pastors have to do.

00:15:35.080 You can't just sit around and kind of tell everyone, make everyone feel good and act like, oh, we're all, you know, together in this universalism and we're all going to get there anyway.

00:15:44.140 Don't talk about anyone.

00:15:45.920 You know, Paul, all over the New Testament, Romans 16, verse 17 and 18, Ephesians 5, 11, expose deeds of darkness, mark false teachers.

00:15:53.360 Like to stay silent is literally just passive agreement.

00:15:56.540 You're just you're complicit in some of these issues because you're not saying anything or doing your job as a pastor.

00:16:02.040 So they come out and they go, thank God, like, go, go, Kosti, go, so to speak.

00:16:07.220 And so those were encouraging moments.

00:16:09.080 Other family, other side of the spectrum, very, very strong responses.

00:16:15.180 I was threatened spiritually and physically.

00:16:18.740 And then at one point, one of my other uncles called me and said, this is out of your jurisdiction.

00:16:23.480 So what do you mean?

00:16:24.820 He said, this is apostolic.

00:16:26.980 And what he meant was he's an apostle and I'm just a pastor.

00:16:30.600 So pastors don't deal with it.

00:16:33.500 Apostles do.

00:16:34.220 So he is going to deal with it.

00:16:35.840 I said, well, you're not dealing with it.

00:16:37.080 So we had a big, long conversation.

00:16:39.260 He ended up agreeing with, he said, everything you're saying is true and right, but it's out of your jurisdiction.

00:16:44.800 And I thought, well, then, you know, apostle, you deal with it.

00:16:48.480 Just somebody confront.

00:16:49.760 And so we had talked behind closed doors as a family.

00:16:52.840 My grandmother, before she passed away for actually decades is not an exaggeration, used

00:16:58.760 to say in her broken Arabic, you know, Benny, this man, no Holy Spirit.

00:17:03.840 You know, we're Middle Eastern.

00:17:04.780 They all speak Arabic.

00:17:05.680 She'd go, Benny, this man, no Holy Spirit.

00:17:07.320 This woman, no, no good. 1.00

00:17:08.900 No good.

00:17:09.580 She used to get upset and tell him to stop doing certain things, you know, family dinners

00:17:13.880 or whatever.

00:17:14.340 And then there'd be a little, you know, kind of debate and whatnot.

00:17:17.620 And so as a family, for years, we had just internally understood some things needed to

00:17:24.260 stop.

00:17:25.520 Right.

00:17:25.740 The thing is not everyone in the next generation or even around became a pastor and then decided

00:17:31.260 to do anything about it.

00:17:32.960 And so when I got saved and when I got discipled, I started seeing passages that made me really,

00:17:39.560 to be honest, uncomfortable, but also emboldened.

00:17:41.840 And I thought, Jesus, you, you demand through your word that pastors like get on the front

00:17:48.560 lines and stop trying to be politicians or diplomats and statesmen and act all like we're

00:17:53.000 going to please everyone start doing the job.

00:17:55.460 Like gone are the days when people used to hate preachers and even other men have quoted

00:18:00.520 other men like Richard Baxter and Lawson has said this before, Dr. Steve Lawson, they'll

00:18:04.380 say the problem with preachers today is nobody wants to kill them anymore.

00:18:06.640 They're not saying the hard truth that they're supposed to say.

00:18:11.140 And you think John the Baptist lost his head for it.

00:18:13.560 Paul lost his head for it.

00:18:15.140 Jesus died for it.

00:18:16.280 The disciples over and over, you know, Stephen, the first martyr of the church.

00:18:21.000 So that was happening.

00:18:22.920 Anyway, I just rabbit trailed on what pastors are supposed to do, but they were upset.

00:18:26.900 And then in the middle, there were there and there still are these great moments of tension

00:18:31.820 where, for example, I had some family members come over one time to our little dingy apartment

00:18:36.180 when we first got married and we had left everything.

00:18:38.700 And it was like, just, we thought it was so cool to be on our own.

00:18:41.660 We're like, we're going to serve Jesus and let everything go and to live as Christ.

00:18:45.360 And we have everything in him.

00:18:47.340 And then you realize when people come over who are really rich and they park their bins

00:18:51.960 outside your dingy apartment and people are like doing drugs across the way at the motel.

00:18:55.840 You're like, oh yeah, maybe we're not living the high level.

00:18:57.820 This was our, you love our little apartment.

00:19:00.460 So they come over and I opened my Bible and I said, okay, 1 Timothy 3.

00:19:05.900 Let's go there.

00:19:06.660 So I took the two individuals to 1 Timothy 3 and I just began walking through verses

00:19:10.400 one through seven, the qualifications of a pastor, an elder, an overseer of the church.

00:19:15.640 And then I went a little cage stage because I did this imperfectly.

00:19:19.360 I, some of the lessons I've learned are not because I'm wise.

00:19:22.620 It's because I was foolish and I made some mistakes and then learn. 0.72

00:19:25.940 And I started listing, you know, temperate, prudent. 0.97

00:19:28.280 We're not that free from the love of money.

00:19:30.440 We're not that we love money.

00:19:32.180 I mean, this is what we do.

00:19:34.000 In fact, our CEO or COO or different financial advisors would call us on the road sometimes,

00:19:40.200 call my uncle and different people and say, at the next services, you need to fundraise

00:19:44.760 because you guys are overspending.

00:19:46.780 This, I mean, there were, we did this to make money, period.

00:19:50.900 Jesus was just a means to an end, which shipwrecked so many people's faith in our family.

00:19:57.960 Because when you view God that way as a magic genie, you don't actually know him.

00:20:03.420 When you view the church and the Bible and all of that as a means to an end, you actually 0.99

00:20:07.280 get kind of tired of it because you need a break, which is why many times we didn't

00:20:10.900 even go to church.

00:20:12.140 We traveled the world.

00:20:13.940 And on Sunday, if we would have ever said like, let's go to church, like church, please.

00:20:18.360 We, we are the church.

00:20:20.120 Like we, we do church.

00:20:21.320 We give them, we give church.

00:20:23.020 We're not going to church.

00:20:23.840 And so that wrestling match began with family members and some of them I'm thankful ended

00:20:29.380 well.

00:20:30.200 I've got a pretty good relationship with my mom and dad.

00:20:32.940 We have great conversations.

00:20:34.760 Love my, my sisters dearly.

00:20:37.400 And some of our in-laws and people, we have very good conversations now.

00:20:42.540 But in the beginning, things exploded.

00:20:45.780 And so we had to navigate those waters and that just goes to the territory.

00:20:50.440 Yeah.

00:20:50.740 Okay.

00:20:51.140 I've got a few more questions for you.

00:20:53.200 So, okay, Kosti.

00:20:55.060 So we were talking about your family members and how some of the relationships are still

00:20:59.360 really good.

00:20:59.940 Now we heard, I remember hearing or seeing a video maybe about a year ago that Benny Henn

00:21:07.160 actually said, you know, a lot of the stuff that I've been doing in the past, I don't

00:21:12.000 believe anymore.

00:21:13.100 Was that a legitimate conversion?

00:21:15.840 Was that, was that repentance or what was the after effect of that video?

00:21:19.720 Well, yeah, based on if the, we let the Bible be the lens through which we look at the situation.

00:21:26.740 I, I would say it was remorse, not repentance.

00:21:29.480 And here's why.

00:21:30.180 Let me back that up.

00:21:31.400 The statement was that he's no longer going to use money and attach it to miracles.

00:21:36.160 So I'm not going to say, give a thousand dollars to you or give this.

00:21:38.900 He said, the Holy Spirit is kind of fed up with it.

00:21:41.900 And I remember thinking, okay, I love that.

00:21:43.940 Like way to go, Uncle Benny, way to say it.

00:21:45.940 But then I thought, well, the Holy Spirit's been fed up with it.

00:21:49.440 So when, you know, and that's great because we all have a moment where we say that I think

00:21:54.120 God's fed up with this.

00:21:55.360 And what we're really saying is I'm coming to an understanding that God doesn't approve

00:21:59.100 of this.

00:21:59.420 And that's great.

00:22:01.160 But it was sort of shock and awe.

00:22:02.840 And then after that, just being in the family and in conversations, imagine for a moment

00:22:09.740 that I'm a little, I'm just a little guy, right?

00:22:12.100 I'm a little minion.

00:22:13.460 Kosti Hinn getting saved and speaking out against the prosperity gospel is nothing.

00:22:17.480 It's the easiest thing to, to push aside and go, oh, he's just bitter at his uncle,

00:22:21.820 or he's trading on the family name, or he's just this, or you can make up whatever storyline

00:22:26.000 you want about me.

00:22:27.220 And it's easy.

00:22:27.940 I'm just a nephew.

00:22:28.660 And it's true. 0.56

00:22:29.320 I am.

00:22:29.600 I'm a local pastor and I'm, I happen to be a Hinn.

00:22:33.440 And so it gets a little attention and people want to talk about the subject, but here's

00:22:36.860 the deal.

00:22:37.500 I cost them very little.

00:22:39.600 My uncle says what he said, and he was bombarded with phone calls from big players because he's

00:22:46.140 a cash cow.

00:22:47.160 He is a cash cow for them.

00:22:48.760 If he starts saying what he said, and he keeps taking that to its logical conclusion, which

00:22:53.980 means you have to start dealing with fake healings, false prophecy, and all the other

00:22:59.020 things that go along with the little seed faith offering that you would promote, well, the

00:23:04.020 whole, he'll bring a whole system down.

00:23:06.160 And that's what I'm praying for.

00:23:08.180 And here's the deal, Ali, you know, this and I do as well.

00:23:10.940 There is a huge difference between remorse and repentance.

00:23:14.460 Remorse was like Judas.

00:23:15.800 He knew he blew it.

00:23:17.060 He knew he sold out Jesus and he was sorry.

00:23:19.000 And he was scared.

00:23:19.780 He goes and hangs himself, tries to get the money back, throws it at the feet of the high

00:23:24.900 priests that had him betray Jesus.

00:23:27.660 And then they go, they're like, well, this is blood money.

00:23:29.400 We can't do it.

00:23:29.900 I mean, it's all remorse.

00:23:31.240 I want to get off the hook because I got busted.

00:23:34.240 And then there's little Zacchaeus.

00:23:35.580 You remember, remember Zach, he goes up in a tree and he's just trying to see Jesus.

00:23:40.480 Jesus is like, I'm coming to your house today.

00:23:41.700 The Pharisees are all bothered.

00:23:43.100 Remember Zacchaeus?

00:23:43.840 He don't even care what anyone thinks anymore.

00:23:45.880 He's trying to pay people back.

00:23:47.140 I doubt, you know, my uncle couldn't even pay everyone back if he tried, but it's the heart,

00:23:50.800 right?

00:23:51.180 Jesus doesn't want our works and, oh, look, you paid everyone back and every nickel and

00:23:54.800 dime.

00:23:54.980 He wants the heart.

00:23:56.320 Zacchaeus didn't care anymore.

00:23:58.180 He just wanted to follow Jesus.

00:24:00.140 Paul, the apostle, when he changed, it was like they were so nervous going, here's the

00:24:05.480 dude who was persecuting the church.

00:24:07.100 We're not sure about him.

00:24:08.360 That's how radical the conversion.

00:24:10.460 So right now, as it stands, not on a personal level at all, it's nothing personal.

00:24:15.280 I love my uncle dearly.

00:24:16.280 It's remorse, not repentance.

00:24:18.220 I would say that to anybody in the church, anyone at our church who came asking questions.

00:24:23.920 It's great that he said he won't give numbers anymore, associate them with miracles and all

00:24:29.760 that.

00:24:30.460 And I love, I'm against the poverty gospel and I'm not saying God can't bless people.

00:24:35.020 So when he says, you know, I'm still for prosperity, you know, great.

00:24:38.220 The wealthy people in the world are a blessing to the gospel.

00:24:40.820 Many of them fund gospel work.

00:24:42.440 And so wealth is a responsibility.

00:24:44.400 It's not a sin and all that's good and well, but repentance is repentance of sin, saying

00:24:50.320 I've sinned, I've sinned against the Lord.

00:24:53.400 You know, Psalm 51, where David just unloads.

00:24:56.320 Here's what I've done.

00:24:57.920 And I want that.

00:24:58.880 That's repentance.

00:24:59.660 It's metanoia is the change of mind.

00:25:02.400 180.

00:25:02.940 I was going south.

00:25:03.920 Now I'm going north.

00:25:04.920 That hasn't happened yet.

00:25:06.900 So keep him in prayer and people need to stay discerning.

00:25:11.900 Don't be so skeptical and aggressive with everyone, but, you know, be discerning and use wisdom.

00:25:17.780 That would be my encouragement on that topic.

00:25:19.560 And can you give some practical tips for people who maybe they're listening to this and they

00:25:25.960 are realizing that they've believed in the prosperity gospel without knowing it, or maybe

00:25:30.400 they're wondering, hang on a second, I think my church might be perpetuating the prosperity

00:25:35.400 gospel, but I'm not sure.

00:25:36.820 Can you tell people how to discern that, how to discern whether or not they're under a pastor

00:25:41.660 who is preaching this or whether they've just been taking in teachings that have been

00:25:46.820 propagating the prosperity gospel?

00:25:49.560 Excellent question.

00:25:51.380 You're looking for transactional language when it comes to God, you know, a give to get God.

00:25:57.520 If you do this, God's gonna, okay.

00:25:59.940 Fill in that blank.

00:26:01.360 You're at a prosperity gospel church or a prosperity light, kind of like Diet Coke, where you can't

00:26:05.880 really pin it because they're not heretics, but they're really feeding the system and going,

00:26:10.560 yeah.

00:26:10.960 And another one, always, always happy, always good news.

00:26:14.740 God always wants to bless you.

00:26:16.040 No theology of suffering.

00:26:17.340 And that as well is prosperity gospel light.

00:26:21.120 The truth is in Philippians 1 there at the end, verses 28 and 29, Paul tells the church

00:26:25.260 at Philippi, it's been granted to you the privilege to suffer.

00:26:28.600 Romans 5 speaks to the shaping that's happening to our character and the hope that it's producing

00:26:34.860 and the endurance that it's producing.

00:26:36.320 James 1, verses 2 through 4 as well.

00:26:40.000 Consider it all joy when you encounter various trials.

00:26:42.300 The testing of your faith is producing endurance.

00:26:44.100 So you want to hear a theology of suffering.

00:26:47.220 If they're avoiding that, you're probably at a prosperity church or a prosperity light

00:26:51.520 church.

00:26:51.900 Last few I'll give you, listen for terms.

00:26:54.580 One of the biggest ones, breakthrough, or, you know, leaning into what God has for you,

00:26:59.880 okay?

00:27:00.420 Those are not bad things to say.

00:27:02.180 Breakthrough and, you know, what God has for you.

00:27:04.560 Then you want to know, okay, what is that?

00:27:05.960 Is the breakthrough, freedom from sin, freedom from addiction, freedom from bondage, and

00:27:11.060 new life in Christ, freedom in Him, is He the treasure?

00:27:14.240 Is the leaning into what God has for you a greater purpose, a greater life because you

00:27:19.020 have Jesus?

00:27:20.460 Or is that now a new spin, another spin on John 10, 10, the abundant life, and it's,

00:27:25.820 hey, you know, all that God has for you.

00:27:28.460 He don't want you as a lower level manager.

00:27:31.040 He's got big things for you.

00:27:32.500 He wants to promote you.

00:27:33.780 Does He?

00:27:34.120 Actually, some people, God wants to use them in incredible ways, right where they are.

00:27:39.280 And that's okay, too.

00:27:40.900 So we want to listen for that.

00:27:42.480 Is it breakthrough?

00:27:43.540 Like, hey, I sowed this seed, or I did what you told me, I had enough faith, and then $10,000

00:27:48.960 showed up in the mail.

00:27:50.320 It's a money miracle.

00:27:51.740 And listen, God does providentially provide.

00:27:54.400 There's some really neat stories, but like so many things that God has designed, and even

00:27:59.200 He does, that are beautiful and supernatural, what does the devil do?

00:28:03.160 He always wants to twist them and ruin them, steal, kill, and destroy. 0.92

00:28:06.520 It's the same thing with sexuality, right? 0.71

00:28:08.280 God gave us marriage, and the beauty of sexuality, and men, and women, and all of that, the beautiful

00:28:13.320 design.

00:28:13.980 And what does the devil do?

00:28:15.600 Let me mess with gender. 1.00

00:28:16.860 Let me mess with identity.

00:28:18.260 Let me mess with adultery, and let me turn that on its head so that people actually go,

00:28:22.880 you know, I don't even want to get married.

00:28:24.280 And millennials are like, you know, I'm going to stay single until I'm 40, build a career.

00:28:27.240 I don't really run all that drama.

00:28:28.740 Why?

00:28:28.980 Because they've seen the brokenness, and it's the same thing in the church world.

00:28:32.720 There are beautiful concepts of blessing and joy and God's provision, and He heals, and

00:28:38.760 He does incredible things, but you don't take those and turn them into a formula, and you

00:28:42.700 got to be careful.

00:28:43.520 The devil's always trying to take what God is using for good and twist it, use it for

00:28:48.680 evil.

00:28:49.200 Does that help?

00:28:50.220 Yes, definitely.

00:28:51.300 And I think that it's going to help a lot of people who need a clarity about that.

00:28:54.140 Now, if you're willing to talk about it, I just wanted to kind of get your take on what

00:28:59.580 I saw as a kind of back and forth a little bit between Todd White, who is a pastor, and

00:29:06.040 you.

00:29:07.160 And I didn't know everything that happened, but you were a part of a documentary called

00:29:10.480 American Gospel, which is now on Netflix, which I highly encourage everyone to go watch.

00:29:15.400 I have talked about it a lot on my podcasts, but it's an amazing documentary.

00:29:18.660 But there was a little bit of back and forth that I saw that maybe someone told Todd White

00:29:25.420 that, hey, we would love for you to watch this documentary, and he didn't want to, and

00:29:30.520 you wrote a letter or something.

00:29:32.780 Can you clarify that for me?

00:29:35.740 Yeah, so it's very, it's blown up, but it was very low drama.

00:29:40.200 It was so behind the scenes.

00:29:41.940 It was, he has a friend who, they were his daughter, and his daughter were at dance together,

00:29:46.580 and they were good friends.

00:29:48.360 The guy watched American Gospel and basically got saved.

00:29:52.360 It was like, the Lord opened his eyes.

00:29:54.840 Brandon Kimber, who made American Gospel, and I are really good friends, obviously is

00:29:58.580 involved in the documentary and all that.

00:30:00.860 And he reached out and said, hey, a friend of mine, a guy reached out to me, he's buddies

00:30:05.880 with Todd White, got saved, wants to give him a copy of American Gospel, but asked specifically

00:30:11.300 if maybe you would write a letter to Todd, something personal, just share your heart.

00:30:15.460 So I'm like, yeah.

00:30:17.720 So I write this letter.

00:30:20.180 I remember sitting in my office.

00:30:21.680 It's like, doors closed, leave me alone, email off, and I'm going, okay, God, like I

00:30:26.180 get one shot here.

00:30:28.080 So I just unloaded my heart, and I went the love route, and I was firm.

00:30:33.540 Like everyone, you know, some people were like, how dare you say you love Todd White on Twitter?

00:30:36.920 I'm like, yeah, like, do you love souls? 0.98

00:30:38.880 Do you want, like, you want them to go to hell? 0.73

00:30:41.300 Yeah, you have the heart issue.

00:30:42.320 You need to evangelize and try to reach people, and then let God do the finality of judgment.

00:30:47.480 But yeah, I call them out.

00:30:48.840 We'll call truth, truth.

00:30:50.340 But at the same time, the goal, like Paul said, the goal of our instruction is love.

00:30:54.400 So I told Todd in the letter, like, I love you.

00:30:57.260 I've been where you've been.

00:30:58.480 Don't get sucked in.

00:30:59.580 I know it's addicting.

00:31:00.700 I know the high is there.

00:31:02.020 I know that things are building.

00:31:03.280 I know this isn't.

00:31:04.220 But, and I told him flat out, I will literally drop everything, be there for you.

00:31:08.500 I don't care what I lose, or who says I'm crazy, or what, you know, if Pulpit and Pen writes an article about me, I don't care.

00:31:16.640 Like, I will be at your door.

00:31:18.440 If you turn, like, you'll have to give up a lot.

00:31:21.800 But dude, like, you gain Christ, you have everything.

00:31:24.760 So I do the whole letter.

00:31:25.920 Everything that any of us would say on our, like, last ditch, throw the rope, trying to get him.

00:31:30.880 So, yeah, the letter and the DVD were given to him.

00:31:34.500 And then I was told personally and privately that he said, no way, man, I'm going to throw these away and rip the letter.

00:31:41.580 And so I was told his response of what he said and all of that.

00:31:44.380 There were some attempts at contacting him.

00:31:47.660 That was the last I heard of it.

00:31:49.080 And then the other day, somebody sends me a sermon and Todd, you know, called it out and said what happened.

00:31:56.320 And here's, here's, if I was, if the cameras were off and Allie, you, your husband, my wife, me, we were sitting at a table all together talking.

00:32:03.980 Here's what I would tell you.

00:32:04.700 And I'll tell you this on the air.

00:32:05.680 I don't care.

00:32:06.760 Todd broke the cardinal rule of that world.

00:32:09.800 I was in it.

00:32:10.360 You never, ever mention an opponent and their resources, because what you're doing is trying to keep people away from that stuff.

00:32:20.800 And I don't know if Todd knows it or not, but false teachers are used by the enemy to keep sheep lost.

00:32:28.000 And so whether he knows it or not, the reason that false teachers are like that is they are working out the enemy's agenda.

00:32:34.300 And they're not to ever let sheep go investigate, because what's going to happen?

00:32:38.600 John 10, they're going to hear the shepherd's voice in the truth of the gospel, and they're going to raise their eyes and go this.

00:32:45.120 They're going to drink living water and they're gone.

00:32:47.100 It's over.

00:32:47.740 And then in our world, what do we do when we're not talking about camps or denominations in the world where we talk about the true gospel and we call false teachers out?

00:32:54.980 What are we not afraid to do?

00:32:56.320 We point them out and we tell sheep, hey, look out for the wolf.

00:33:00.340 Really?

00:33:00.800 It's a wolf?

00:33:01.440 How?

00:33:02.080 We show them what they teach.

00:33:03.180 Then we show them the Bible, and then they go, oh, that totally makes sense.

00:33:07.040 I'm going to stay away from them.

00:33:07.980 See, we're not afraid to – we're not insecure about pointing things out, because we know we're living in the truth.

00:33:12.960 It's God's word.

00:33:13.980 So whatever the reason, I chalk it up to the providence and sovereignty of God.

00:33:19.880 Todd broke the rules, and I really believe this.

00:33:24.580 The evangelist in me is fired up.

00:33:26.620 So many people are going to go investigate.

00:33:29.000 What's Todd doing in a movie?

00:33:30.380 What did that Kosti Hinn guy say?

00:33:31.820 Who's Brandon Kimber?

00:33:33.180 What's going on?

00:33:33.940 They're going to go investigate.

00:33:34.960 You know what they're going to do?

00:33:35.680 Who cares about me?

00:33:36.660 I don't care if they hear my story, read the book, whatever.

00:33:38.620 They are going to hear the true gospel, and then that's a moment where I believe there'll be an awakening for so many people.

00:33:45.860 So that's what happened.

00:33:47.020 And then I just told Todd I love him, and I'm praying for him, and I really do hope he turns into like a Saul Paul. 0.98

00:33:53.620 I know some people don't like that, and they're like, whatever, he'll never preach.

00:33:57.060 Remember, the qualifications for a preacher, pastor, or other are post-conversion.

00:34:01.360 If we all were unqualified because what we did before we were saved, nobody could be a pastor.

00:34:05.720 Right.

00:34:06.040 So we do pray that Todd would get saved, his eyes are open, and then boom, come back after a season of restoration and learning and growing and explode for the glory of God.

00:34:17.000 Because we'll all meet Jesus one day, and that's a big deal.

00:34:19.980 Absolutely.

00:34:20.960 Okay, I want to talk to you about one more thing briefly, even though we're a little over time because we said we were going to talk about it, and I know people would love to hear your take on it.

00:34:29.000 There's been kind of a series of deconversions lately, it seems like, this kind of doubt is virtue trend that's been going on.

00:34:36.940 I talked about it a little bit on Friday's episode, but from a pastor's perspective, and probably from the perspective of someone I'm just assuming has maybe seen people go down this road of all of a sudden asking these questions and saying, you know what, I just don't believe anymore.

00:34:52.540 I just kind of give up.

00:34:54.040 What are your thoughts on that, and maybe what's your encouragement to people who are finding themselves on the precipice of that position?

00:35:01.680 Yeah, let's live in two worlds here.

00:35:03.800 The heart of us loving people and wanting to see them saved, and then still not negating the truth of God's Word.

00:35:10.760 Okay, we don't need to be shocked.

00:35:12.600 Here, first, let's start with kind of hard truth, and then let's be more tender with how we should respond.

00:35:18.720 The hard truth is this.

00:35:20.560 This is going to happen.

00:35:22.560 Jesus shared the parable of the soils in Matthew 13.

00:35:27.080 Those are not the four stages of the Christian life.

00:35:29.500 Like, some of us are a little hard, and some of us are just baby Christians, rocky soil, and some of us are wrestling with temptation, like the thorns, and then some of us are just thriving with a good soil.

00:35:38.800 No.

00:35:39.260 Jesus was giving us four types of hearts.

00:35:42.020 There are those who are hardened.

00:35:43.360 The devil snatches the seed.

00:35:44.680 They don't even go in.

00:35:45.680 There are those who appear saved, and they sprout up quick, but the bedrock is there.

00:35:50.120 It's not deep.

00:35:50.940 They don't have deep roots.

00:35:52.140 Turns out they were never really Christians.

00:35:53.660 They fall away.

00:35:54.320 And then you've got people that actually grow up for years.

00:35:57.700 This is what happens.

00:35:58.620 That's why we're so shocked.

00:36:00.060 They grew with us.

00:36:00.840 They were with us, and guys like the Hawk Nelson guy and others, these deconversions, and they grow up.

00:36:05.500 And then what Jesus says is the parasmos in the Greek, the temptations, riches, cares of this world, the worries, the questions, all of it start to choke out what was growing.

00:36:16.580 And then they fall away.

00:36:17.940 But the good soil, so if you're not the good soil, you're actually, that's not, that wouldn't be Christian. 0.97

00:36:27.120 And so Jesus said that's the way it's going to be.

00:36:30.120 And so we don't need to be surprised.

00:36:31.600 However, we should be, and I want you all to be, and I am too, heartbroken when those moments happen.

00:36:36.880 We're not like, oh yeah, Jesus said it would happen, whatever, so get over it.

00:36:39.480 It's not like that.

00:36:40.740 It's just we don't need to be shocked.

00:36:42.500 1 John 2, 19, John says they went out from among us.

00:36:46.920 Why? Because they were never really of us.

00:36:49.340 He's saying they weren't really Christians.

00:36:51.060 And there were all these people in the context of 1 John running around saying, oh, we're Christians.

00:36:57.180 They were confessing Christ, and hey, we're good.

00:36:59.400 And then they sinned and did whatever they wanted.

00:37:01.420 It was what is called antinomianism, right, where they just go, whatever.

00:37:05.020 It's the opposite of legalism.

00:37:06.540 We can live how we want, do what we want.

00:37:08.400 Jesus died, so his sin will cover it. 0.71

00:37:10.420 We're good.

00:37:11.140 And John's going, no, you have to walk in love, obedience.

00:37:14.380 You can't practice sin, which doesn't mean you can't sin.

00:37:17.760 Practice meaning habitual, ongoing, I'm just going to sin and do whatever I want.

00:37:21.920 He said, you can't live that way in unrepentant sin and actually be a Christian.

00:37:26.440 You're not one of us.

00:37:27.760 So there's these people that are going to be with us for years and years and then end up

00:37:32.520 not being a Christian. 0.94

00:37:33.340 Last one, Matthew 7, verses 22, 23.

00:37:36.540 Jesus says there'll even be people who come to him one day, and he's going to be judging

00:37:40.740 and weighing everything, and they're going to say, Lord, Lord, I prophesied in your name,

00:37:44.780 did miracles.

00:37:45.520 I did all this great stuff in your name.

00:37:48.120 And he's going to say, depart from me.

00:37:50.220 I don't even know you, you who practice lawlessness.

00:37:53.460 So in other words, there are going to be people that even did amazing things, and they'll say,

00:37:58.060 I know you.

00:37:58.600 Hey, I'm with Jesus.

00:37:59.540 And he's like the guy that's going, yeah, I don't know you.

00:38:02.800 So that becomes the question, right?

00:38:04.640 You know Jesus?

00:38:05.540 Great.

00:38:06.020 Will he know you?

00:38:07.960 And so really important for us to be able to quantify what a true salvation or true conversion

00:38:13.020 is, what the signs of conversion are.

00:38:15.560 That's why sometimes I'll write articles, you know, the signs of conversion or the evidence

00:38:19.380 of salvation doesn't mean that your works save you.

00:38:22.400 We've all been clear on that.

00:38:24.180 But you are, so you're not saved by good works, but you're saved for good works.

00:38:29.080 And so good works are the outworking of a believer and a true convert.

00:38:32.560 So what happens when a guy like that goes through that?

00:38:35.160 Um, let me go more specific.

00:38:37.720 When the questions come up and why they be converted is, yeah, why would God allow evil? 0.97

00:38:45.120 Why is there so much murder in the Bible?

00:38:47.120 What's with God and killing everyone?

00:38:49.060 Why did he kill his son?

00:38:50.720 Um, what, you know, where is God in all of it?

00:38:53.640 Those are questions that break my heart because when you're a pastor, you have those.

00:38:57.960 Somebody didn't answer the bell.

00:39:00.000 Somebody didn't answer the questions.

00:39:01.340 Somebody didn't say, hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:39:03.640 Let's go to Isaiah 55, son.

00:39:05.800 God said, my ways are above your ways.

00:39:07.600 My thoughts are above your thoughts.

00:39:08.800 You know, let's go visit Job.

00:39:09.940 Let's go visit our friend Job for a little while.

00:39:11.800 And let's go to Job 38, 39, 40, all the way.

00:39:14.440 And then let's look at him.

00:39:15.500 He questioned God.

00:39:16.260 It's okay to question.

00:39:17.480 But remember when he pushed a little too far and God says, oh, Job, I'm sorry.

00:39:21.980 You who put the oceans where they are and set the boundary.

00:39:24.900 You who put the stars in the sky.

00:39:26.360 My bad, Job.

00:39:27.340 Tell me.

00:39:27.800 Tell me what it's supposed to be, son.

00:39:29.020 You know, let's go and then let's put ourself in our place and let's go to Romans 8, 28.

00:39:34.180 He causes all things to work together for good.

00:39:36.400 That means the good, the bad, and the ugly.

00:39:38.260 Let's face suffering.

00:39:39.720 Let's fit and then realize God is God.

00:39:42.200 And if he was a God that we could create and all fully understand, you know, he wouldn't

00:39:45.660 be God.

00:39:46.460 He would just be something we created.

00:39:48.060 He is above us and outside of us.

00:39:50.340 And so really important to understand who God is and what a real Christian is and what

00:39:56.960 who the real Jesus was.

00:39:58.940 And I, here's my last exhortation.

00:40:00.900 I know I'm soapbox and I'm preaching because this stuff fires me up because souls are on

00:40:04.260 the line.

00:40:05.040 This is why, Allie, I think you and I, this is why all of us are so up in arms over biblical 0.95

00:40:11.940 literacy, faithfulness to the word, and then faithfulness in our churches.

00:40:16.340 Because for 30 or 40 years, the church entertained us, they played us music, they had smoke machines

00:40:22.120 and laser lights and nothing wrong with cool productions.

00:40:25.140 Don't get me wrong.

00:40:26.220 But where the youth ministry was chubby bunny and camping trips to the lake.

00:40:30.680 Like, what were we doing?

00:40:32.840 Right.

00:40:33.100 And we wonder why the kids grow up and go, yeah, I don't believe in God because you never

00:40:36.520 gave them an apologetic.

00:40:38.460 So we need to be faithful.

00:40:41.140 Remember our calling.

00:40:42.180 We're not celebrities.

00:40:43.480 We are shepherds.

00:40:44.760 We're preachers.

00:40:45.740 We're teachers.

00:40:46.540 That's what we do.

00:40:47.380 So my heart breaks for him, but the story's not done yet.

00:40:51.540 But we got to remember what the Bible teaches and be humble before who God is.

00:40:57.360 Amen.

00:40:57.980 Okay.

00:40:58.320 Will you tell everyone quickly about your book, where they can get your awesome book, where

00:41:03.560 they can find you if you want them to follow you or anything like that?

00:41:09.460 Yeah, the book is called God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel.

00:41:12.620 It is on Amazon.

00:41:15.260 I think you can get like Target online.

00:41:17.480 I think Walmart had it.

00:41:19.160 Lifeway online.

00:41:20.060 I think Lifeway is still around online.

00:41:22.060 And then ChristianBook.com, Barnes, kind of everywhere.

00:41:24.640 If you just type it in, God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel, it'll come up.

00:41:28.640 And then I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all that.

00:41:31.660 I love connecting with people.

00:41:32.980 Pastor in Gilbert, Arizona.

00:41:34.300 So you live in the Valley and you don't have a church.

00:41:37.920 Come visit us.

00:41:38.760 We're reopening next week.

00:41:40.620 And then I blog sometimes at ForTheGospel.org.

00:41:45.380 But that's all I got, Allie.

00:41:47.520 I don't know.

00:41:48.320 Awesome.

00:41:48.580 I can't think of anything else.

00:41:49.640 No, that is perfect.

00:41:50.940 I highly encourage people to check out that book.

00:41:52.920 It is a wonderful book.

00:41:54.780 It would be great for you.

00:41:56.660 It would be great for your friends, people who are maybe in the Prosperity Gospel and

00:42:00.440 they're questioning.

00:42:01.460 I always say that a really good way, a lot of people ask me, how do I talk to my friend

00:42:05.620 about this?

00:42:06.720 You know, I feel like she's wrong theologically here.

00:42:08.500 I'm like, a really great and maybe soft way to do it is to present someone else's work

00:42:13.820 on the subject matter and then have a conversation about it so that person feels like they're

00:42:19.220 more engaging with the material and the subject rather than just being kind of preached

00:42:24.400 too.

00:42:24.780 So I highly encourage people to do that with Kosti's book.

00:42:28.100 And Kosti, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.

00:42:30.900 This was a wonderful conversation and I know it's going to edify a lot of people.

00:42:35.100 Thanks, Allie.

00:42:35.800 Talk to you soon.

00:42:36.500 Thanks.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 01, 2020

Ep 257 ｜ Leaving the Prosperity Gospel Behind and the Deconversion of Christians ｜ Guest： Costi Hinn

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