Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 05, 2020


Ep 259 ｜ Why Cultural Christians Are Going Extinct ｜ Guest： Dr. Albert Mohler


Episode Stats

Length

32 minutes

Words per Minute

177.15533

Word Count

5,707

Sentence Count

340

Hate Speech Sentences

13


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. So I am so excited about the conversation that
00:00:15.800 we are having today with Dr. Albert Moeller. He is a podcast host of a podcast that I have
00:00:23.060 listened to for years now called The Briefing. He is also the president of Southern Seminary
00:00:29.220 and he has been in the Southern Baptist Convention for a very long time, very influential in Christian
00:00:35.400 thinking on culture and politics. And so this is going to be a great little break from the very
00:00:41.580 intense episode that we had on Wednesday. This will also be a very engaging and insightful
00:00:46.280 episode for you, but we're going to take a break from some of the very controversial and intense
00:00:51.100 things that we talked about on Wednesday, talk about some other very important things today
00:00:55.900 about how Christians confront the moral revolution that has been going on, how we disciple our
00:01:01.080 children, how we should think about voting in November and all of the very pressing issues
00:01:06.640 that Christians are feeling the pressure from. Now, without further ado, here is Dr. Albert
00:01:13.740 Moeller. Dr. Moeller, thank you so much for joining me. I'm very glad to be with you, Allie. I think
00:01:20.060 everyone listening knows who you are and what you do, probably listens to your podcast. But
00:01:24.880 just in case there are a few people out there who don't, could you give everyone an introduction?
00:01:32.480 Well, I'm Albert Moeller. I serve as president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
00:01:36.960 in Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm an author, writer, speaker, and I do two podcasts, a daily podcast
00:01:44.720 five days a week called The Briefing, which is a daily analysis of news and events from a Christian
00:01:50.420 worldview. And that's a daily take on what I think Christians ought to be thinking about as we engage
00:01:57.880 the world around us. And then a podcast, Thinking in Public, which is a long-form conversation. It comes
00:02:04.320 out fairly regularly, conversations with authors, thinkers, especially authors, who, some of whom are not
00:02:13.920 Christians, as a way of engaging ideas and having a fruitful conversation. And so that's a part of
00:02:23.560 what I do. It's a lot of fun, and it's a fast life. Yes, it is, especially with everything that's
00:02:29.160 going on. I'm sure even you sometimes feel overwhelmed with just the amount of news that
00:02:34.940 you have to cover and analyze every day. You just wrote a book. You've written several books, but you
00:02:39.740 just wrote a book, The Gathering Storm. Can you tell everyone why you wrote it and what it's about?
00:02:46.760 Yeah, the subtitle of the book is Secularism, Culture, and the Church, but the title has a story,
00:02:52.600 and some will hear it. They'll know it already. Winston Churchill, after the Second World War,
00:02:59.280 wrote his six-volume history of that war, and the first of the six volumes was entitled The Gathering
00:03:04.220 Storm. And it was about the gathering storm clouds over Europe, in particular, in the 1930s.
00:03:10.420 Churchill saw what was coming. So many of the most respected, intellectual, aristocratic people
00:03:18.100 around him and throughout Europe refused to see what was happening. He was honest about it. He was
00:03:22.440 right about it, horrifyingly enough. And I just use that as a metaphor. I'm not saying that 2020 is
00:03:29.620 the 1930s. But I am saying, in our own time, there are significant clouds on the horizon. There's a
00:03:36.520 gathering storm. And I think most Christians perceive it. They know the world's changing in
00:03:41.040 fundamental ways around us. So I try to explain the most fundamental of those changes and look at it
00:03:47.480 through several different lenses, from everything from sexual morality in the family to generational
00:03:52.880 change and how cultures produce. But the big story here is the secularization of the culture.
00:03:57.980 How did we, in just a brief analysis, you could probably talk about this for a long time,
00:04:03.340 and you probably discuss it in your book, but how did we get to this place to where you talk about,
00:04:08.280 for example, the sexual revolution a lot, which is really just one example of how truth has become
00:04:14.160 relative and subjective or redefining even basic biological definitions like gender? Are we here just
00:04:21.680 because of the natural trajectory of the sinfulness of man? Did Christians and the church have some part in
00:04:30.200 this? What happened?
00:04:33.580 Well, that's a brilliant question, Allie. And it has to be answered in one sense, yes, to everything you just said.
00:04:41.100 That's all a part of what's taken place. But I think the big story here is, of course,
00:04:47.060 the Christian understanding that human sinfulness distorts reality and that, you know, the achievement
00:04:55.640 of a stable, healthy society is a very rare thing and has to be explained as a very rare achievement
00:05:04.180 in a fallen world. But as we're looking at our society, the trajectory of Western civilization,
00:05:09.200 clearly something massive happened when we entered what we might call the modern age. And a secular
00:05:16.540 alternative appeared to Christianity. And it's not that everyone was a believing Christian
00:05:21.440 before the modern age. It's just to say Christianity was the only available worldview. So, you know, it was
00:05:27.560 the only basic intellectual structure. But the modern age brought an alternative intellectual structure.
00:05:33.900 And I think what most Christians don't understand is that that alternative is now the mainstream. It is
00:05:40.620 now by far the most influential worldview. And so we're seeing a transformation of morality, reality.
00:05:47.420 You just go down the list because what had been a society that operated on in basic agreement with
00:05:56.060 Christian moral judgments, it doesn't any longer.
00:05:59.300 Right. Can you tell me what Christians, having that information and knowing all the problems that
00:06:06.740 we're facing, can you tell me some things that Christians can do? I mean, we know some of the
00:06:12.340 basics. We know, read the word of God, pray, be involved in your church, do all the things that
00:06:15.980 the Lord calls us to do. But I think people want to want to push back, but they don't know the balance
00:06:23.520 between, you know, idolizing politics, idolizing political leaders, getting too caught up in that.
00:06:29.300 But actually being proactive and pushing for the things that we as Christians know are good and
00:06:33.780 right and true.
00:06:36.260 Yeah. You start in the right place. What Christians always need to think of first and what we do
00:06:42.200 is what we're commanded to do. Even the ordinary means of grace, you know, the preaching of the
00:06:48.260 word of God, the preaching of the gospel, evangelism, missions, the devotions of the Christian life.
00:06:56.560 All this is where we start. But we also understand that it's not by accident we are in a particular
00:07:02.680 culture, a particular time. That means we have a particular responsibility. And so, you know,
00:07:08.520 the first commandment, as Jesus said, is to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and
00:07:14.120 mind. And the second commandment, Jesus said, is likened to it. You should love your neighbors
00:07:17.440 yourself. So a part of loving neighbor means that we are politically active because politics is,
00:07:23.820 by the way, just any negotiation in the social sphere. And we want that negotiation. We want
00:07:29.380 laws and policies that we think will be right and will lead to human happiness and joy and flourishing
00:07:36.100 and healthy families and the right moral and social outcomes. So in a Christian worldview,
00:07:44.700 Allie, and you know this well, everything we're called to do in the world is non-utopian.
00:07:55.400 We don't believe that politics will bring in the kingdom of Christ. Only Christ will bring in the
00:07:59.660 kingdom of Christ. But between here and now, we have a responsibility. So we seek to be good stewards
00:08:05.180 of that responsibility. To answer your first question again, just to say, I think one of the
00:08:10.720 most important reasons I wrote this book is to help Christian churches and Christian families. Parents
00:08:15.760 say, we have to raise our children and seek to disciple Christians with a whole new serious and
00:08:23.280 sober understanding of the challenges that we as Christians are going to face. Which can feel like
00:08:28.280 an overwhelming challenge. I'm a new mom, and even though there's so much that I know that my 11-month-old
00:08:35.100 doesn't understand, I already feel a kind of urgency for her to understand the gospel. And something
00:08:42.840 that I've prayed for her since I was pregnant that I just have felt continually compelled to pray for
00:08:47.900 her is that she would be wise. Of all things, of course, we know that wisdom starts with the fear
00:08:54.060 of the Lord. And so that is a given. But just that she would be wise, that she would be discerning.
00:08:58.800 We see such a lack of wisdom, not just in the secular world, but within the church. And a lot
00:09:04.900 of Christians, I know you just gave so many wonderful things that we can do. I think they
00:09:10.920 still feel overwhelmed with how to challenge specifically their Christian friends who they
00:09:16.420 see latching on to worldly ideas, whether it be about marriage or whether it be about the idea that
00:09:22.020 you just explained that we actually do need to bring a utopia here on earth. And that's the only way for
00:09:26.800 justice and freedom and equality and all of that stuff. A lot of Christians are very frustrated
00:09:31.480 not knowing how to share wisdom and to speak wisdom to their Christian friends or their Christian
00:09:39.680 children who disagree with them. So what advice would you give to those people?
00:09:45.520 You know, Ali, I've had some interesting thoughts of late along these lines. And by the way,
00:09:51.760 congratulations on becoming a mom. I will tell you that my wife and I think being grandparents to two
00:09:59.880 little boys is just about the perfect thing. But it changes your perspective. And here's something I've
00:10:06.460 been thinking about of late. A part of what I think Christians don't recognize is that we used to kind of
00:10:12.820 think that we can raise our children in our families, live in our neighborhoods, you know, worship in our
00:10:18.660 churches, do the things we do. And someone out there is going to do the hard work of thinking
00:10:23.760 and confronting all these issues and thinking about all these moral questions and all the rest.
00:10:30.480 And they'll do that for us. And, you know, there was a time when that was kind of true. But a part of
00:10:35.800 the reason I wrote this book is it's not true anymore. Now every parent has to become a moral expert.
00:10:41.280 Every Christian home has to become a think tank. And one of the things I said to some parents the
00:10:49.980 other day is I said, you know, here's the thing. Lots of Christian parents used to think, you know,
00:10:54.320 we've got our kids for 17, 18 years, then we send them to college. We got to get them ready for the
00:10:58.920 battle of ideas when they go to college. And I want to say, no, that's not wrong in the past. Maybe
00:11:05.380 it's wrong now. You've got to battle for ideas amongst three-year-olds now. You know, it's all
00:11:13.140 the time. And so, you know, even when you listen to the conversation going on, you know, as you watch
00:11:21.360 the kids at the playground, you realize there's a battle of ideas right here. Yep, absolutely. And
00:11:26.680 I think some parents feel, maybe they feel unequipped. Something that I think is really
00:11:31.860 simple that so many take for granted. They think that there is some magical formula to being able
00:11:39.140 to teach your kids in a godly way. And I know there are so many wonderful resources about that.
00:11:43.540 And you've written and talked about that a lot. But I think a lot of parents think that maybe the
00:11:48.420 Bible isn't enough, that having a godly pastor, you know, exegetically preach to you and help you
00:11:55.460 isn't enough, that there has to be something else. But I think parents take for granted not only the
00:12:01.040 wisdom that is in the Word of God, but also their own abilities that the Lord has given them to be
00:12:07.360 able to specially parent and mentor their child. I think a lot of parents have maybe even been
00:12:12.600 convinced that they are unequipped for that. And so they feel more comfortable kind of pawning their
00:12:18.040 kids off either to their Sunday school class, which of course Sunday school can be great, or their
00:12:22.740 public school or even their private school. And I've noticed that even at private schools, you can't
00:12:27.180 trust that. You can't trust anyone to mentor your kids except for you. And so you're absolutely right.
00:12:34.700 Yeah, you know, as you as you think about this, Peter and Bridget Berger, a team of sociologists,
00:12:43.020 Peter Berger, maybe the most influential sociologist in the United States the last century.
00:12:48.500 He and his wife wrote a book years ago about the family in which they said,
00:12:52.040 the family is being besieged by experts. And the average parent, and they wrote this back in the
00:13:00.400 1970s, they said the average parent now thinks himself or herself incompetent to parent their
00:13:07.040 children. They've now got to reach out to experts. But as Berger pointed out, those experts come with
00:13:13.360 an ideology. And so, you know, the experts are the parents. I just want to say that to parents,
00:13:19.920 you actually are the experts. And God intended you to do this, and you can do this. Armed with
00:13:25.700 the Word of God, part of a faithful gospel church, you can do this. And I just want to encourage parents,
00:13:31.900 you are the experts. You are the think tank. You are the intellectual elite in your family. And
00:13:38.700 you've got to do that heavy lifting. You can do it.
00:13:41.240 Yes, absolutely. And you don't have to have, you don't have to have gone to seminary. You don't
00:13:46.200 even have to know everything about the Bible. Like there are some parents that I know that are
00:13:50.920 really just now starting to read the Bible because of the very problems that you're talking about.
00:13:55.400 They want their kids so desperately to know God and to know good and evil. And they've realized,
00:13:59.280 they've looked into their own hearts and said, well, I don't really know. I'm looking at all of
00:14:03.500 these issues and I don't really know. So they have started taking the Bible more seriously. And that's part of
00:14:08.300 the reason why I, even in the midst of all this craziness and negativity that it seems like the
00:14:12.180 world is just, you know, burning down around us. And sometimes it literally is. I see a lot of hope
00:14:17.980 even for future generations, because for the first time in a long time, I think that parents are,
00:14:24.320 a lot of Christian parents are taking discipleship of their kids and understanding the Word of God
00:14:29.380 really seriously. So do you think that there is reason to hope for the generation that our children
00:14:36.040 represent? Yeah. You know, one of the things I often say, Allie, is that we're about to find
00:14:41.480 out where the Christians are. Right. Because the age of cultural Christianity is disappearing. People
00:14:46.820 who identified as Christian because it was kind of the popular thing to do, no longer the popular
00:14:51.020 thing to do. So that means the people who identify as Christians are going to be more and more really
00:14:56.780 seriously minded Christians. And seriously minded Christians do what Christians do. So, you know,
00:15:03.380 even as parents think of this, one of the real points of Christian wisdom and parenting children
00:15:09.740 throughout the history of the Christian church has been what's right in the Bible, you know, hide
00:15:13.180 the Word in their hearts. And so my wife and I were just so thrilled, our daughter and son-in-law
00:15:22.420 raising those two little boys, now two and four, in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
00:15:28.080 So four-year-old Benjamin just looked at us on FaceTime the other day and recited the 23rd
00:15:34.380 Psalm. Four years old. You know, it's so sweet. The little voice, you know, you anoint my head
00:15:39.820 with oil. Yeah. Making sure he gets every word right. Yeah. So a little dick shit. And then I
00:15:46.740 realized I don't even know how many of those words he fully understands, but that word's hidden in his
00:15:52.220 heart. It's the Word of God. It will do a work which only the Word of God can do. And I just want
00:16:00.880 Christian parents to fill their children with the Word of God, because that's going to make more of
00:16:06.780 a difference than filling them with mere arguments. Yes. And there's such an urgency to do so. You've
00:16:12.480 talked about on your podcast, I've talked about on this show, that there is a very powerful force that
00:16:17.600 has been around for a long time, but seems maybe more powerful than ever, trying to disintegrate
00:16:24.100 the parent-child relationship. We hear that a lot, especially recently. It's really, you know,
00:16:29.420 that communistic idea that children don't belong to their parents. They belong to the community or
00:16:33.880 even belong to themselves, that there should be no traditional nuclear family because it's a part of
00:16:39.720 patriarchal oppression and all of that nonsense. So people have to understand that in the government,
00:16:45.060 cultural, social influences, there are people who don't want you to homeschool your kids,
00:16:49.320 don't want you to private school your kids, don't want you to teach your kids at all.
00:16:52.940 I think that it was a Harvard professor that recently said that it's authoritarian for a
00:16:57.020 parent to want to homeschool their children. So parents just have to understand that there's an
00:17:00.820 urgency right now. It is. It is. Oh, explain that. Explain that.
00:17:05.320 The right way. What I mean is parents are to have authority. I mean, in fact, God gives parents the
00:17:10.740 responsibility to teach their children. And what that Harvard professor was now infamously pushing
00:17:17.280 back on is that parents would impose upon their children their own worldview. That's actually what
00:17:23.540 parents do. But that also tells us something else. And it tells us, and John Dewey, who was one of the
00:17:30.140 major formative figures in public school education in this country back in the 20th century, he openly
00:17:36.140 said, what we need to do is to separate children from the prejudices of their parents. And he
00:17:42.640 actually meant that in religious terms. He meant that theologically. He saw, you know, the religion
00:17:49.320 of parents as a very dangerous thing. And his point is, you can't have secular children if religious
00:17:56.520 parents keep raising their children religiously. And his concern was, you know, Orthodox Judaism in
00:18:01.600 certain parts of the country and Roman Catholicism and, of course, conservative evangelical parents.
00:18:07.960 But that's our responsibility. And so I just want to say, don't be scared off by the experts who say,
00:18:14.060 you know, you need to give your children lots of options. I don't I don't I don't believe that,
00:18:20.300 by the way, that's even good for children or sane. No, no, not at all. And as C.S. Lewis says,
00:18:26.260 there is no neutral ground. I think some people think of public school or non-religious spaces as
00:18:31.960 neutral. Well, they have, you know, just as much of a faith as we do and just as much of an ideology
00:18:36.640 as we do. And it points in different moral directions. And I think parents, all people,
00:18:41.540 but parents especially need to realize there is no neutral ground for you or for your children.
00:18:45.920 It's either claimed or counterclaimed. Absolutely right. You know, just in recent days,
00:18:52.520 history's come out of Sesame Street, the television program. And this history has made clear what we
00:18:59.520 all all knew already. And that was that there's very much a worldview behind Sesame Street. And
00:19:04.940 but I think a lot of parents think of Sesame Street as a, you know, it's just Muppets and vocabulary
00:19:10.480 and math. But no, there is massive worldview, social, moral messaging, you know, that has from
00:19:17.100 the very beginning come through Sesame Street. In fact, it was kind of a, a, an intentional effort
00:19:23.360 to provide an alternative to what was seen as a, you know, too quiet, stayed and, and stereotypical
00:19:31.420 Mr. Rogers neighborhood. But, you know, it's just a reminder, just as you say, I, and this is
00:19:36.720 something on the briefing and in my preaching and teaching, I come back to all the time. The myth
00:19:40.980 of neutrality is a deadly, deadly myth. There is no neutral space on a fallen earth.
00:19:47.580 Right. Okay. I want to talk to you about President Trump. So 2016, you're not a supporter of President
00:19:55.620 Trump. You wrote an op ed about it. And now recently you have talked about possibly supporting him. Is
00:20:02.300 that correct? It is. I was answering the question about how I expect to vote in the 2020 election.
00:20:09.860 And so I'll just be clear with you, Allie. I, I have never voted for a Democrat because in my
00:20:18.200 entire adult lifetime for president, my entire adult lifetime, the Democratic and the Republican
00:20:24.720 parties have been pretty split apart on big issues. And the first election in which I was capable of
00:20:31.760 voting was 1980. And that decision was very clear. I'd actually worked for Ronald Reagan as a volunteer
00:20:38.320 in 1976, uh, before I was able to vote. And so, uh, the big question for me, uh, was Donald Trump in
00:20:46.480 2016. And I mean, uh, this is a man who has celebrated his own immoral behavior, uh, his, uh, his, his,
00:20:54.700 his character, his, I mean, even the way he presents himself. I mean, he, he, uh, he, he's often
00:21:00.660 basically, uh, dismissed, uh, dismissed any kind of traditional biblical Christian morality in that
00:21:07.200 sense. Um, and so, uh, and I have been so involved in national debates calling for Bill Clinton to
00:21:16.040 resign the presidency, uh, because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal and, and, uh, issues of perjury.
00:21:22.840 Um, and so I didn't feel that I could, uh, vote for Donald Trump and I didn't, I certainly didn't
00:21:29.440 vote for Hillary Clinton. I, I just, I just didn't. I reluctantly, I wanted to vote for the platform,
00:21:36.100 uh, of the, the Republican party, but I, I, I didn't vote reluctantly. So, uh, for president,
00:21:43.160 uh, but, uh, uh, for Donald Trump for president, but in 2020, I just honestly wanted to say when I was
00:21:49.960 asked the question, I expect that I will. And, uh, so if you're asking me what's changed, what's
00:21:54.980 changed is, um, I've come to the conclusion that, uh, that Americans don't get to choose their, uh,
00:22:02.420 their presidential candidates any longer. Um, the primary process. So in other words, it's not that
00:22:09.020 all Republicans get together and say, who are we going to nominate? It's a, it's a long primary
00:22:13.240 process with other factors involved, but we do decide who we vote for at the end. And, and it's a
00:22:18.780 party platform. You look, if you look at the democratic party platform in 2020, uh, and the
00:22:23.820 Republican party platform in 2020, they're going to be in diametrically opposite worlds. And, uh,
00:22:29.860 so I expect that I reluctantly didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2016. I probably reluctantly will
00:22:36.740 vote for Donald Trump in 2020. Uh, pretty sure of that, uh, because I, I think it's going to matter
00:22:43.240 which party apparatus is in, uh, authority, especially in the executive branch. And I also
00:22:50.520 say that president Trump in appointments and in so many other policies has done what he said he would
00:22:55.060 do. And, uh, I, I, I, I think that, uh, the election of, uh, of any Democrat, uh, including Joe Biden
00:23:03.340 will mean the election of a, an executive branch that will undo, uh, almost everything they can.
00:23:10.140 And, uh, I think, uh, with the issues of religious liberty, I mean, just in the background of this,
00:23:15.160 think of the Obama administration's contraception mandate and, uh, think of the transgender issues,
00:23:20.320 even this week, uh, you know, very much in debate with the, uh, department of, uh, of education.
00:23:27.220 Uh, I, uh, I, I, I know I'm not any happier, uh, about president Trump as, uh, as a man in the
00:23:36.740 span of his lifetime and how he's chosen to live his life. And, and, and, and even as he presents
00:23:40.820 himself, uh, but, uh, but I, I, I do recognize that, uh, uh, the, the presidential choice we make
00:23:49.060 and, uh, and in American history, it's, it's so often been the choice of this candidate or that
00:23:54.420 candidate, the way we talk, but in reality, the way people vote, it has been really that party or
00:24:01.360 this party. And I'm just being honest about that. Uh, I, uh, I think when it comes to the great
00:24:06.480 worldview divide in this country, neither party's perfect and the gospel and the kingdom of Christ
00:24:11.720 don't write in with any party. Uh, but politics does matter. And I'm just trying to be a good
00:24:17.020 steward of that. And, and as a public intellectual and leader, uh, evangelical, I just feel the need
00:24:23.800 to do that honestly. So I'm not offended by the question, Allie. I just hope to answer it
00:24:28.300 faithfully. Yes. Well, you and I are on the same page. I did vote for president Trump in 2016,
00:24:33.060 having a lot of the same concerns that you did. Um, but also a lot of the same, you know,
00:24:38.500 insight that you just revealed right now that, uh, the two platforms are so diametrically opposed
00:24:43.800 and the problems at stake are, are so dire that it's really what the party, what his party represents,
00:24:49.180 which like you said, Republicans certainly haven't been perfect and could be a lot more courageous on
00:24:53.560 the issues. But it's so hard for me to imagine doing anything or voting in any way that might
00:24:59.580 make it more likely that a Democrat becomes president. However, my question is that I've
00:25:03.920 personally struggled with, that I know a lot of Christians have struggled with is when does,
00:25:09.280 or if at all, does a person, um, eclipse a person's immorality eclipse the platform? So the Republican
00:25:17.680 platform stays what it is. The democratic platform stays what it is. Is there anything that Donald Trump
00:25:22.960 could say or do that you would say, okay, that's enough. I can't vote for him.
00:25:29.000 Well, the answer to that can't be no. Right. I mean, I'm not about to say there's nothing that
00:25:34.740 someone could do, but, uh, I, I've learned at this point in my life, uh, and I'm 60. So I'll just say
00:25:42.100 I'm in the seventh decade of my life. Uh, a bit of wisdom that I think I've learned is I can't really,
00:25:48.980 uh, contemplate many hypotheticals anymore. I've got to deal with the actuals. And I think by the
00:25:54.380 way, that's a good Christian affirmation. That's the tradition known as Christian realism. Uh, I
00:26:00.280 could think of all kinds of hypotheticals, uh, but I've got to deal with the actual. So in any given
00:26:06.340 situation where I have to make a moral decision, I've got to deal with the alternatives presented to
00:26:12.000 me. And so, uh, you ask a hypothetical question and it's tempting to answer it. Uh, but anything
00:26:19.600 so you could say, you know, uh, uh, uh, the president made a statement when he was a candidate
00:26:25.260 saying I could shoot someone in my, you know, my base would still support me. Uh, I don't think
00:26:30.020 that's true by the way. Uh, however, I don't think that's, I don't think that's the right place to draw
00:26:35.380 the line. So, I mean, even just, just talking to you now, I think hypotheticals, uh, aren't helpful
00:26:40.920 anymore, but the actuals are. And, uh, and then, and this is where, uh, a part of the Christian
00:26:46.880 political calculus in a fallen world has to be, I've got two very imperfect options here,
00:26:55.140 but both will have consequences. I've got to live with my decision based upon those consequences.
00:27:02.720 And, uh, I really think, and as part of the reason why I wrote this book, The Gathering Storm,
00:27:06.860 Ali, is because I think in 2020, we're at a hinge moment of history in which if, if there were to be,
00:27:14.160 uh, I mean, you listen to the conversation going on to the democratic left and that's becoming the
00:27:19.780 center of the democratic party. Uh, if those policies were to be put into place, um, I, I think it would,
00:27:28.040 uh, it would be a horrifying thing. Yes. And so, uh, sometimes in politics, you say,
00:27:34.240 this is the best thing I know to do now. We will hope for a better opportunity or option later.
00:27:41.040 Uh, but never perfect. And this is where some evangelicals have, have, uh, have, have had too
00:27:46.620 much faith in some candidates who've always let us down. Um, no candidates, perfect politics is the art
00:27:53.160 of the possible. Otherwise they don't get elected. And so every single president I voted for has
00:27:58.300 disappointed me in some way, but, uh, the alternative would have disappointed me a lot more.
00:28:03.120 Right. And would have been a lot more probably consequential in a way that you don't agree
00:28:08.200 with. Um, so do you think that Christians though, and this is probably the last question
00:28:14.820 or two, do you think Christians have an obligation to still, is it hypocritical? I guess is what
00:28:21.420 I'm asking for Christians to vote for Donald Trump because of the reasons that you and I both agree
00:28:26.900 with, but still criticize him when we know he needs to be criticized because the rebuttal from the
00:28:34.280 other side is, well, you voted for him. How could you criticize all these things you say you don't
00:28:38.180 like? Well, I, uh, I'm trying to do that. I've tried to do that. I'm very supportive where I can
00:28:45.400 be supportive, but I I'm critical where I have to be critical. Uh, just trying to be a consistent
00:28:50.580 Christian making these evaluations. But I think we have to press back on this premise, uh, Allie,
00:28:56.060 because, uh, there, there's no one who, uh, who wants to buy the entire product of any candidate,
00:29:03.040 especially after, you know, the, the, so what's interesting to see is how many people who voted
00:29:08.220 for Barack Obama, uh, amongst Democrats were very dissatisfied with him at the end. Uh, you know,
00:29:14.560 in other words, politics is, is, is not a perfect business, but, uh, I also think we have to press
00:29:20.080 back on the premise. So if, uh, if, if, if you ask me who should be president of the United States,
00:29:27.140 uh, I would come up with a name not identified with presidential politics, but no one, no one asked
00:29:34.800 me that no one would care how I answered because when it comes down to it, the electoral college is
00:29:39.280 going to deal with two major candidates in, in likelihood who, uh, one of whom is going to be
00:29:45.280 president of the United States. So your decision, and when someone says that to you, your decision
00:29:50.220 is not that of 330 plus million Americans, you chose Donald Trump, but rather that the option
00:29:57.320 presented to us was Donald Trump and the administration that would follow his election,
00:30:02.720 or in this case, Joe Biden and the administration that would follow his election. So, um,
00:30:09.280 yeah, I would, I, I, uh, I understand and sympathize entirely with the question. I feel
00:30:13.880 it, but I just want to press back a little to say, that's not what you do in an election. You
00:30:17.820 don't in an election for president, you don't go in and say, here is my perfect candidate. You say,
00:30:23.760 right. There are two names here. Uh, and obviously there are other things you can write people in
00:30:28.720 or whatever, but in terms of who's going to be elected, there are two names here. And, uh, I've got
00:30:33.620 to make a decision based upon that. Yep. That was exactly how I felt. And I know a lot of people
00:30:38.660 felt in the last election, and that's exactly how I'm feeling probably even more so as you
00:30:43.260 are going into this election, but important conversations and debates to have. I know
00:30:47.240 there are a lot of faithful Christians that might, you know, slightly disagree with what
00:30:51.660 you and I think about that. And as I always say on my show, I welcome them to reach out
00:30:55.460 to me and let me know their perspective on that. Um, just to end, could you remind everyone
00:31:00.460 or tell everyone where they can buy your book and any other information you would like them
00:31:05.320 to have? Well, thank you. Uh, they can buy the book wherever books are sold, uh, online.
00:31:11.760 And, uh, these days that's where we're doing a lot of our business and, uh, you know, hope
00:31:15.840 you'll support your, your local Christian bookstore, your, and your, your local bookstore in town,
00:31:20.040 but that's not as possible these days. So online, certainly amazon.com and just about everywhere
00:31:25.480 else books are sold. Uh, it can be found. And, uh, my podcast and, uh, the rest of what I
00:31:31.880 write and speak and, and produce is found at Albert Mohler. That's M-O-H-L-E-R.com.
00:31:37.440 And especially the podcast, the briefing and thinking in public. Perfect. Well, thank you
00:31:42.100 so much, Dr. Mohler. And thank you for everything you do and just the clarity that you give on
00:31:46.600 so many of the, uh, most important issues that we're dealing with. Well, thank you, Allie.
00:31:52.520 And I have to tell you, this has been a particularly, uh, good conversation. I appreciate, uh, the very
00:31:58.440 intelligent and careful way, uh, that you pose these questions. This is the kind of conversation
00:32:03.060 you help Christians, uh, to, uh, to model in order that they can have this kind of conversation in
00:32:07.920 their own church and their own home. So God bless you for that. Well, thank you so much. That means
00:32:11.520 a lot to me. God bless you as well.