Ep 259 ｜ Why Cultural Christians Are Going Extinct ｜ Guest： Dr. Albert Mohler
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Summary
Dr. Albert M. Moeller is the President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of The Gathering Storm, a book about secularism, culture, and the church. He is also the host of the podcast The Briefing, and has been a long-time member of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. So I am so excited about the conversation that
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we are having today with Dr. Albert Moeller. He is a podcast host of a podcast that I have
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listened to for years now called The Briefing. He is also the president of Southern Seminary
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and he has been in the Southern Baptist Convention for a very long time, very influential in Christian
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thinking on culture and politics. And so this is going to be a great little break from the very
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intense episode that we had on Wednesday. This will also be a very engaging and insightful
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episode for you, but we're going to take a break from some of the very controversial and intense
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things that we talked about on Wednesday, talk about some other very important things today
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about how Christians confront the moral revolution that has been going on, how we disciple our
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children, how we should think about voting in November and all of the very pressing issues
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that Christians are feeling the pressure from. Now, without further ado, here is Dr. Albert
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Moeller. Dr. Moeller, thank you so much for joining me. I'm very glad to be with you, Allie. I think
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everyone listening knows who you are and what you do, probably listens to your podcast. But
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just in case there are a few people out there who don't, could you give everyone an introduction?
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Well, I'm Albert Moeller. I serve as president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
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in Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm an author, writer, speaker, and I do two podcasts, a daily podcast
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five days a week called The Briefing, which is a daily analysis of news and events from a Christian
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worldview. And that's a daily take on what I think Christians ought to be thinking about as we engage
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the world around us. And then a podcast, Thinking in Public, which is a long-form conversation. It comes
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out fairly regularly, conversations with authors, thinkers, especially authors, who, some of whom are not
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Christians, as a way of engaging ideas and having a fruitful conversation. And so that's a part of
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what I do. It's a lot of fun, and it's a fast life. Yes, it is, especially with everything that's
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going on. I'm sure even you sometimes feel overwhelmed with just the amount of news that
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you have to cover and analyze every day. You just wrote a book. You've written several books, but you
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just wrote a book, The Gathering Storm. Can you tell everyone why you wrote it and what it's about?
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Yeah, the subtitle of the book is Secularism, Culture, and the Church, but the title has a story,
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and some will hear it. They'll know it already. Winston Churchill, after the Second World War,
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wrote his six-volume history of that war, and the first of the six volumes was entitled The Gathering
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Storm. And it was about the gathering storm clouds over Europe, in particular, in the 1930s.
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Churchill saw what was coming. So many of the most respected, intellectual, aristocratic people
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around him and throughout Europe refused to see what was happening. He was honest about it. He was
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right about it, horrifyingly enough. And I just use that as a metaphor. I'm not saying that 2020 is
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the 1930s. But I am saying, in our own time, there are significant clouds on the horizon. There's a
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gathering storm. And I think most Christians perceive it. They know the world's changing in
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fundamental ways around us. So I try to explain the most fundamental of those changes and look at it
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through several different lenses, from everything from sexual morality in the family to generational
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change and how cultures produce. But the big story here is the secularization of the culture.
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How did we, in just a brief analysis, you could probably talk about this for a long time,
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and you probably discuss it in your book, but how did we get to this place to where you talk about,
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for example, the sexual revolution a lot, which is really just one example of how truth has become
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relative and subjective or redefining even basic biological definitions like gender? Are we here just
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because of the natural trajectory of the sinfulness of man? Did Christians and the church have some part in
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Well, that's a brilliant question, Allie. And it has to be answered in one sense, yes, to everything you just said.
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That's all a part of what's taken place. But I think the big story here is, of course,
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the Christian understanding that human sinfulness distorts reality and that, you know, the achievement
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of a stable, healthy society is a very rare thing and has to be explained as a very rare achievement
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in a fallen world. But as we're looking at our society, the trajectory of Western civilization,
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clearly something massive happened when we entered what we might call the modern age. And a secular
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alternative appeared to Christianity. And it's not that everyone was a believing Christian
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before the modern age. It's just to say Christianity was the only available worldview. So, you know, it was
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the only basic intellectual structure. But the modern age brought an alternative intellectual structure.
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And I think what most Christians don't understand is that that alternative is now the mainstream. It is
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now by far the most influential worldview. And so we're seeing a transformation of morality, reality.
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You just go down the list because what had been a society that operated on in basic agreement with
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Christian moral judgments, it doesn't any longer.
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Right. Can you tell me what Christians, having that information and knowing all the problems that
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we're facing, can you tell me some things that Christians can do? I mean, we know some of the
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basics. We know, read the word of God, pray, be involved in your church, do all the things that
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the Lord calls us to do. But I think people want to want to push back, but they don't know the balance
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between, you know, idolizing politics, idolizing political leaders, getting too caught up in that.
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But actually being proactive and pushing for the things that we as Christians know are good and
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Yeah. You start in the right place. What Christians always need to think of first and what we do
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is what we're commanded to do. Even the ordinary means of grace, you know, the preaching of the
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word of God, the preaching of the gospel, evangelism, missions, the devotions of the Christian life.
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All this is where we start. But we also understand that it's not by accident we are in a particular
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culture, a particular time. That means we have a particular responsibility. And so, you know,
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the first commandment, as Jesus said, is to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and
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mind. And the second commandment, Jesus said, is likened to it. You should love your neighbors
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yourself. So a part of loving neighbor means that we are politically active because politics is,
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by the way, just any negotiation in the social sphere. And we want that negotiation. We want
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laws and policies that we think will be right and will lead to human happiness and joy and flourishing
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and healthy families and the right moral and social outcomes. So in a Christian worldview,
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Allie, and you know this well, everything we're called to do in the world is non-utopian.
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We don't believe that politics will bring in the kingdom of Christ. Only Christ will bring in the
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kingdom of Christ. But between here and now, we have a responsibility. So we seek to be good stewards
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of that responsibility. To answer your first question again, just to say, I think one of the
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most important reasons I wrote this book is to help Christian churches and Christian families. Parents
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say, we have to raise our children and seek to disciple Christians with a whole new serious and
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sober understanding of the challenges that we as Christians are going to face. Which can feel like
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an overwhelming challenge. I'm a new mom, and even though there's so much that I know that my 11-month-old
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doesn't understand, I already feel a kind of urgency for her to understand the gospel. And something
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that I've prayed for her since I was pregnant that I just have felt continually compelled to pray for
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her is that she would be wise. Of all things, of course, we know that wisdom starts with the fear
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of the Lord. And so that is a given. But just that she would be wise, that she would be discerning.
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We see such a lack of wisdom, not just in the secular world, but within the church. And a lot
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of Christians, I know you just gave so many wonderful things that we can do. I think they
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still feel overwhelmed with how to challenge specifically their Christian friends who they
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see latching on to worldly ideas, whether it be about marriage or whether it be about the idea that
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you just explained that we actually do need to bring a utopia here on earth. And that's the only way for
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justice and freedom and equality and all of that stuff. A lot of Christians are very frustrated
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not knowing how to share wisdom and to speak wisdom to their Christian friends or their Christian
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children who disagree with them. So what advice would you give to those people?
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You know, Ali, I've had some interesting thoughts of late along these lines. And by the way,
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congratulations on becoming a mom. I will tell you that my wife and I think being grandparents to two
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little boys is just about the perfect thing. But it changes your perspective. And here's something I've
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been thinking about of late. A part of what I think Christians don't recognize is that we used to kind of
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think that we can raise our children in our families, live in our neighborhoods, you know, worship in our
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churches, do the things we do. And someone out there is going to do the hard work of thinking
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and confronting all these issues and thinking about all these moral questions and all the rest.
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And they'll do that for us. And, you know, there was a time when that was kind of true. But a part of
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the reason I wrote this book is it's not true anymore. Now every parent has to become a moral expert.
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Every Christian home has to become a think tank. And one of the things I said to some parents the
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other day is I said, you know, here's the thing. Lots of Christian parents used to think, you know,
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we've got our kids for 17, 18 years, then we send them to college. We got to get them ready for the
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battle of ideas when they go to college. And I want to say, no, that's not wrong in the past. Maybe
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it's wrong now. You've got to battle for ideas amongst three-year-olds now. You know, it's all
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the time. And so, you know, even when you listen to the conversation going on, you know, as you watch
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the kids at the playground, you realize there's a battle of ideas right here. Yep, absolutely. And
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I think some parents feel, maybe they feel unequipped. Something that I think is really
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simple that so many take for granted. They think that there is some magical formula to being able
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to teach your kids in a godly way. And I know there are so many wonderful resources about that.
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And you've written and talked about that a lot. But I think a lot of parents think that maybe the
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Bible isn't enough, that having a godly pastor, you know, exegetically preach to you and help you
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isn't enough, that there has to be something else. But I think parents take for granted not only the
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wisdom that is in the Word of God, but also their own abilities that the Lord has given them to be
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able to specially parent and mentor their child. I think a lot of parents have maybe even been
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convinced that they are unequipped for that. And so they feel more comfortable kind of pawning their
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kids off either to their Sunday school class, which of course Sunday school can be great, or their
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public school or even their private school. And I've noticed that even at private schools, you can't
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trust that. You can't trust anyone to mentor your kids except for you. And so you're absolutely right.
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Yeah, you know, as you as you think about this, Peter and Bridget Berger, a team of sociologists,
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Peter Berger, maybe the most influential sociologist in the United States the last century.
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He and his wife wrote a book years ago about the family in which they said,
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the family is being besieged by experts. And the average parent, and they wrote this back in the
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1970s, they said the average parent now thinks himself or herself incompetent to parent their
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children. They've now got to reach out to experts. But as Berger pointed out, those experts come with
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an ideology. And so, you know, the experts are the parents. I just want to say that to parents,
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you actually are the experts. And God intended you to do this, and you can do this. Armed with
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the Word of God, part of a faithful gospel church, you can do this. And I just want to encourage parents,
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you are the experts. You are the think tank. You are the intellectual elite in your family. And
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you've got to do that heavy lifting. You can do it.
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Yes, absolutely. And you don't have to have, you don't have to have gone to seminary. You don't
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even have to know everything about the Bible. Like there are some parents that I know that are
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really just now starting to read the Bible because of the very problems that you're talking about.
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They want their kids so desperately to know God and to know good and evil. And they've realized,
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they've looked into their own hearts and said, well, I don't really know. I'm looking at all of
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these issues and I don't really know. So they have started taking the Bible more seriously. And that's part of
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the reason why I, even in the midst of all this craziness and negativity that it seems like the
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world is just, you know, burning down around us. And sometimes it literally is. I see a lot of hope
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even for future generations, because for the first time in a long time, I think that parents are,
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a lot of Christian parents are taking discipleship of their kids and understanding the Word of God
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really seriously. So do you think that there is reason to hope for the generation that our children
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represent? Yeah. You know, one of the things I often say, Allie, is that we're about to find
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out where the Christians are. Right. Because the age of cultural Christianity is disappearing. People
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who identified as Christian because it was kind of the popular thing to do, no longer the popular
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thing to do. So that means the people who identify as Christians are going to be more and more really
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seriously minded Christians. And seriously minded Christians do what Christians do. So, you know,
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even as parents think of this, one of the real points of Christian wisdom and parenting children
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throughout the history of the Christian church has been what's right in the Bible, you know, hide
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the Word in their hearts. And so my wife and I were just so thrilled, our daughter and son-in-law
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raising those two little boys, now two and four, in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
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So four-year-old Benjamin just looked at us on FaceTime the other day and recited the 23rd
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Psalm. Four years old. You know, it's so sweet. The little voice, you know, you anoint my head
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with oil. Yeah. Making sure he gets every word right. Yeah. So a little dick shit. And then I
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realized I don't even know how many of those words he fully understands, but that word's hidden in his
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heart. It's the Word of God. It will do a work which only the Word of God can do. And I just want
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Christian parents to fill their children with the Word of God, because that's going to make more of
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a difference than filling them with mere arguments. Yes. And there's such an urgency to do so. You've
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talked about on your podcast, I've talked about on this show, that there is a very powerful force that
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has been around for a long time, but seems maybe more powerful than ever, trying to disintegrate
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the parent-child relationship. We hear that a lot, especially recently. It's really, you know,
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that communistic idea that children don't belong to their parents. They belong to the community or
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even belong to themselves, that there should be no traditional nuclear family because it's a part of
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patriarchal oppression and all of that nonsense. So people have to understand that in the government,
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cultural, social influences, there are people who don't want you to homeschool your kids,
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don't want you to private school your kids, don't want you to teach your kids at all.
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I think that it was a Harvard professor that recently said that it's authoritarian for a
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parent to want to homeschool their children. So parents just have to understand that there's an
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urgency right now. It is. It is. Oh, explain that. Explain that.
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The right way. What I mean is parents are to have authority. I mean, in fact, God gives parents the
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responsibility to teach their children. And what that Harvard professor was now infamously pushing
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back on is that parents would impose upon their children their own worldview. That's actually what
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parents do. But that also tells us something else. And it tells us, and John Dewey, who was one of the
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major formative figures in public school education in this country back in the 20th century, he openly
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said, what we need to do is to separate children from the prejudices of their parents. And he
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actually meant that in religious terms. He meant that theologically. He saw, you know, the religion
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of parents as a very dangerous thing. And his point is, you can't have secular children if religious
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parents keep raising their children religiously. And his concern was, you know, Orthodox Judaism in
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certain parts of the country and Roman Catholicism and, of course, conservative evangelical parents.
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But that's our responsibility. And so I just want to say, don't be scared off by the experts who say,
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you know, you need to give your children lots of options. I don't I don't I don't believe that,
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by the way, that's even good for children or sane. No, no, not at all. And as C.S. Lewis says,
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there is no neutral ground. I think some people think of public school or non-religious spaces as
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neutral. Well, they have, you know, just as much of a faith as we do and just as much of an ideology
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as we do. And it points in different moral directions. And I think parents, all people,
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but parents especially need to realize there is no neutral ground for you or for your children.
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It's either claimed or counterclaimed. Absolutely right. You know, just in recent days,
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history's come out of Sesame Street, the television program. And this history has made clear what we
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all all knew already. And that was that there's very much a worldview behind Sesame Street. And
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but I think a lot of parents think of Sesame Street as a, you know, it's just Muppets and vocabulary
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and math. But no, there is massive worldview, social, moral messaging, you know, that has from
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the very beginning come through Sesame Street. In fact, it was kind of a, a, an intentional effort
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to provide an alternative to what was seen as a, you know, too quiet, stayed and, and stereotypical
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Mr. Rogers neighborhood. But, you know, it's just a reminder, just as you say, I, and this is
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something on the briefing and in my preaching and teaching, I come back to all the time. The myth
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of neutrality is a deadly, deadly myth. There is no neutral space on a fallen earth.
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Right. Okay. I want to talk to you about President Trump. So 2016, you're not a supporter of President
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Trump. You wrote an op ed about it. And now recently you have talked about possibly supporting him. Is
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that correct? It is. I was answering the question about how I expect to vote in the 2020 election.
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And so I'll just be clear with you, Allie. I, I have never voted for a Democrat because in my
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entire adult lifetime for president, my entire adult lifetime, the Democratic and the Republican
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parties have been pretty split apart on big issues. And the first election in which I was capable of
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voting was 1980. And that decision was very clear. I'd actually worked for Ronald Reagan as a volunteer
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in 1976, uh, before I was able to vote. And so, uh, the big question for me, uh, was Donald Trump in
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2016. And I mean, uh, this is a man who has celebrated his own immoral behavior, uh, his, uh, his, his,
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his character, his, I mean, even the way he presents himself. I mean, he, he, uh, he, he's often
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basically, uh, dismissed, uh, dismissed any kind of traditional biblical Christian morality in that
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sense. Um, and so, uh, and I have been so involved in national debates calling for Bill Clinton to
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resign the presidency, uh, because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal and, and, uh, issues of perjury.
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Um, and so I didn't feel that I could, uh, vote for Donald Trump and I didn't, I certainly didn't
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vote for Hillary Clinton. I, I just, I just didn't. I reluctantly, I wanted to vote for the platform,
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uh, of the, the Republican party, but I, I, I didn't vote reluctantly. So, uh, for president,
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uh, but, uh, uh, for Donald Trump for president, but in 2020, I just honestly wanted to say when I was
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asked the question, I expect that I will. And, uh, so if you're asking me what's changed, what's
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changed is, um, I've come to the conclusion that, uh, that Americans don't get to choose their, uh,
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their presidential candidates any longer. Um, the primary process. So in other words, it's not that
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all Republicans get together and say, who are we going to nominate? It's a, it's a long primary
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process with other factors involved, but we do decide who we vote for at the end. And, and it's a
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party platform. You look, if you look at the democratic party platform in 2020, uh, and the
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Republican party platform in 2020, they're going to be in diametrically opposite worlds. And, uh,
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so I expect that I reluctantly didn't vote for Donald Trump in 2016. I probably reluctantly will
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vote for Donald Trump in 2020. Uh, pretty sure of that, uh, because I, I think it's going to matter
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which party apparatus is in, uh, authority, especially in the executive branch. And I also
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say that president Trump in appointments and in so many other policies has done what he said he would
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do. And, uh, I, I, I, I think that, uh, the election of, uh, of any Democrat, uh, including Joe Biden
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will mean the election of a, an executive branch that will undo, uh, almost everything they can.
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And, uh, I think, uh, with the issues of religious liberty, I mean, just in the background of this,
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think of the Obama administration's contraception mandate and, uh, think of the transgender issues,
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even this week, uh, you know, very much in debate with the, uh, department of, uh, of education.
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Uh, I, uh, I, I, I know I'm not any happier, uh, about president Trump as, uh, as a man in the
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span of his lifetime and how he's chosen to live his life. And, and, and, and even as he presents
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himself, uh, but, uh, but I, I, I do recognize that, uh, uh, the, the presidential choice we make
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and, uh, and in American history, it's, it's so often been the choice of this candidate or that
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candidate, the way we talk, but in reality, the way people vote, it has been really that party or
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this party. And I'm just being honest about that. Uh, I, uh, I think when it comes to the great
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worldview divide in this country, neither party's perfect and the gospel and the kingdom of Christ
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don't write in with any party. Uh, but politics does matter. And I'm just trying to be a good
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steward of that. And, and as a public intellectual and leader, uh, evangelical, I just feel the need
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to do that honestly. So I'm not offended by the question, Allie. I just hope to answer it
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faithfully. Yes. Well, you and I are on the same page. I did vote for president Trump in 2016,
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having a lot of the same concerns that you did. Um, but also a lot of the same, you know,
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insight that you just revealed right now that, uh, the two platforms are so diametrically opposed
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and the problems at stake are, are so dire that it's really what the party, what his party represents,
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which like you said, Republicans certainly haven't been perfect and could be a lot more courageous on
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the issues. But it's so hard for me to imagine doing anything or voting in any way that might
00:24:59.580
make it more likely that a Democrat becomes president. However, my question is that I've
00:25:03.920
personally struggled with, that I know a lot of Christians have struggled with is when does,
00:25:09.280
or if at all, does a person, um, eclipse a person's immorality eclipse the platform? So the Republican
00:25:17.680
platform stays what it is. The democratic platform stays what it is. Is there anything that Donald Trump
00:25:22.960
could say or do that you would say, okay, that's enough. I can't vote for him.
00:25:29.000
Well, the answer to that can't be no. Right. I mean, I'm not about to say there's nothing that
00:25:34.740
someone could do, but, uh, I, I've learned at this point in my life, uh, and I'm 60. So I'll just say
00:25:42.100
I'm in the seventh decade of my life. Uh, a bit of wisdom that I think I've learned is I can't really,
00:25:48.980
uh, contemplate many hypotheticals anymore. I've got to deal with the actuals. And I think by the
00:25:54.380
way, that's a good Christian affirmation. That's the tradition known as Christian realism. Uh, I
00:26:00.280
could think of all kinds of hypotheticals, uh, but I've got to deal with the actual. So in any given
00:26:06.340
situation where I have to make a moral decision, I've got to deal with the alternatives presented to
00:26:12.000
me. And so, uh, you ask a hypothetical question and it's tempting to answer it. Uh, but anything
00:26:19.600
so you could say, you know, uh, uh, uh, the president made a statement when he was a candidate
00:26:25.260
saying I could shoot someone in my, you know, my base would still support me. Uh, I don't think
00:26:30.020
that's true by the way. Uh, however, I don't think that's, I don't think that's the right place to draw
00:26:35.380
the line. So, I mean, even just, just talking to you now, I think hypotheticals, uh, aren't helpful
00:26:40.920
anymore, but the actuals are. And, uh, and then, and this is where, uh, a part of the Christian
00:26:46.880
political calculus in a fallen world has to be, I've got two very imperfect options here,
00:26:55.140
but both will have consequences. I've got to live with my decision based upon those consequences.
00:27:02.720
And, uh, I really think, and as part of the reason why I wrote this book, The Gathering Storm,
00:27:06.860
Ali, is because I think in 2020, we're at a hinge moment of history in which if, if there were to be,
00:27:14.160
uh, I mean, you listen to the conversation going on to the democratic left and that's becoming the
00:27:19.780
center of the democratic party. Uh, if those policies were to be put into place, um, I, I think it would,
00:27:28.040
uh, it would be a horrifying thing. Yes. And so, uh, sometimes in politics, you say,
00:27:34.240
this is the best thing I know to do now. We will hope for a better opportunity or option later.
00:27:41.040
Uh, but never perfect. And this is where some evangelicals have, have, uh, have, have had too
00:27:46.620
much faith in some candidates who've always let us down. Um, no candidates, perfect politics is the art
00:27:53.160
of the possible. Otherwise they don't get elected. And so every single president I voted for has
00:27:58.300
disappointed me in some way, but, uh, the alternative would have disappointed me a lot more.
00:28:03.120
Right. And would have been a lot more probably consequential in a way that you don't agree
00:28:08.200
with. Um, so do you think that Christians though, and this is probably the last question
00:28:14.820
or two, do you think Christians have an obligation to still, is it hypocritical? I guess is what
00:28:21.420
I'm asking for Christians to vote for Donald Trump because of the reasons that you and I both agree
00:28:26.900
with, but still criticize him when we know he needs to be criticized because the rebuttal from the
00:28:34.280
other side is, well, you voted for him. How could you criticize all these things you say you don't
00:28:38.180
like? Well, I, uh, I'm trying to do that. I've tried to do that. I'm very supportive where I can
00:28:45.400
be supportive, but I I'm critical where I have to be critical. Uh, just trying to be a consistent
00:28:50.580
Christian making these evaluations. But I think we have to press back on this premise, uh, Allie,
00:28:56.060
because, uh, there, there's no one who, uh, who wants to buy the entire product of any candidate,
00:29:03.040
especially after, you know, the, the, so what's interesting to see is how many people who voted
00:29:08.220
for Barack Obama, uh, amongst Democrats were very dissatisfied with him at the end. Uh, you know,
00:29:14.560
in other words, politics is, is, is not a perfect business, but, uh, I also think we have to press
00:29:20.080
back on the premise. So if, uh, if, if, if you ask me who should be president of the United States,
00:29:27.140
uh, I would come up with a name not identified with presidential politics, but no one, no one asked
00:29:34.800
me that no one would care how I answered because when it comes down to it, the electoral college is
00:29:39.280
going to deal with two major candidates in, in likelihood who, uh, one of whom is going to be
00:29:45.280
president of the United States. So your decision, and when someone says that to you, your decision
00:29:50.220
is not that of 330 plus million Americans, you chose Donald Trump, but rather that the option
00:29:57.320
presented to us was Donald Trump and the administration that would follow his election,
00:30:02.720
or in this case, Joe Biden and the administration that would follow his election. So, um,
00:30:09.280
yeah, I would, I, I, uh, I understand and sympathize entirely with the question. I feel
00:30:13.880
it, but I just want to press back a little to say, that's not what you do in an election. You
00:30:17.820
don't in an election for president, you don't go in and say, here is my perfect candidate. You say,
00:30:23.760
right. There are two names here. Uh, and obviously there are other things you can write people in
00:30:28.720
or whatever, but in terms of who's going to be elected, there are two names here. And, uh, I've got
00:30:33.620
to make a decision based upon that. Yep. That was exactly how I felt. And I know a lot of people
00:30:38.660
felt in the last election, and that's exactly how I'm feeling probably even more so as you
00:30:43.260
are going into this election, but important conversations and debates to have. I know
00:30:47.240
there are a lot of faithful Christians that might, you know, slightly disagree with what
00:30:51.660
you and I think about that. And as I always say on my show, I welcome them to reach out
00:30:55.460
to me and let me know their perspective on that. Um, just to end, could you remind everyone
00:31:00.460
or tell everyone where they can buy your book and any other information you would like them
00:31:05.320
to have? Well, thank you. Uh, they can buy the book wherever books are sold, uh, online.
00:31:11.760
And, uh, these days that's where we're doing a lot of our business and, uh, you know, hope
00:31:15.840
you'll support your, your local Christian bookstore, your, and your, your local bookstore in town,
00:31:20.040
but that's not as possible these days. So online, certainly amazon.com and just about everywhere
00:31:25.480
else books are sold. Uh, it can be found. And, uh, my podcast and, uh, the rest of what I
00:31:31.880
write and speak and, and produce is found at Albert Mohler. That's M-O-H-L-E-R.com.
00:31:37.440
And especially the podcast, the briefing and thinking in public. Perfect. Well, thank you
00:31:42.100
so much, Dr. Mohler. And thank you for everything you do and just the clarity that you give on
00:31:46.600
so many of the, uh, most important issues that we're dealing with. Well, thank you, Allie.
00:31:52.520
And I have to tell you, this has been a particularly, uh, good conversation. I appreciate, uh, the very
00:31:58.440
intelligent and careful way, uh, that you pose these questions. This is the kind of conversation
00:32:03.060
you help Christians, uh, to, uh, to model in order that they can have this kind of conversation in
00:32:07.920
their own church and their own home. So God bless you for that. Well, thank you so much. That means