Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 263 ｜ Why Social Justice Can't Solve Racism ｜ Guests： Virgil Walker & Darrell B. Harrison

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:11.800 Happy Monday.

00:00:12.900 So I don't usually do this on Mondays.

00:00:15.220 I typically give you, you know, a straight theology episode, but today we are going to

00:00:20.820 talk to two of my good friends, the hosts of the Just Thinking podcast, Daryl Harrison

00:00:27.000 and Virgil Walker.

00:00:28.940 And they have just been such wonderful biblical voices, really in so many topics and relating

00:00:34.500 to the Christian life, but particularly on the things that are going on right now with

00:00:38.720 the discussion surrounding race and racism.

00:00:41.640 And so today they are going to bring us back to what the Word of God says and how the gospel

00:00:46.940 informs how we should view everything that's going on.

00:00:49.580 Okay, without further ado, here are my friends, Daryl Harrison and Virgil Walker.

00:00:55.000 Daryl, Virgil, thank you so much for joining me.

00:00:57.780 Thank you, Allie, for having us back on.

00:01:01.640 No doubt.

00:01:03.480 Okay.

00:01:03.960 One of you, I'll just pick so that we're not confused about who's talking.

00:01:09.640 Virgil, can you tell me who you guys are, the podcast you host, and what you do?

00:01:15.120 Well, I'm Virgil Walker.

00:01:17.720 I'm co-host of the Just Thinking podcast.

00:01:21.180 I get the privilege of hanging out side by side with the lead host, Daryl Harrison.

00:01:27.880 We host Just Thinking.

00:01:29.300 It's a joy to do.

00:01:30.780 We've been doing it now for coming up on two years, having just an incredible reach and

00:01:35.700 success with that.

00:01:36.840 And doing no small part, Allie, to you're encouraging your listeners to check us out

00:01:42.280 and to listen to us on a number of different subjects that we cover.

00:01:46.780 Yes.

00:01:47.320 And Daryl, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do as well?

00:01:52.120 Yes.

00:01:52.400 I'm Daryl Harrison.

00:01:53.300 And as Virgil alluded to, I'm lead host of the Just Thinking podcast.

00:01:57.820 And yeah, my day job, when I'm not hanging out with this guy getting in trouble, I serve

00:02:03.500 as dean of social media here at Grace To You, which is the Bible teaching ministry of Dr.

00:02:07.960 John MacArthur out here in Valencia, California.

00:02:11.940 Well, thank you guys so much.

00:02:13.860 And thank you for your ministry, the Just Thinking podcast.

00:02:17.280 I want everyone to go subscribe to that and download, especially the latest episodes.

00:02:22.160 But you guys really, we talk a lot about, or you guys talk a lot about race, racial reconciliation

00:02:28.600 and these issues surrounding race.

00:02:30.240 But that's really just a fragment of what you guys discuss.

00:02:33.660 You guys talk about socialism, the role of the government, the assurance of salvation, all

00:02:38.500 kinds of things that Christians are concerned with.

00:02:42.020 But this last podcast episode that you did, Daryl, on George Floyd and the gospel has been

00:02:48.540 your most popular episode to date, right?

00:02:51.700 A huge number of downloads.

00:02:53.620 Why do you think that is?

00:02:56.080 Yeah, that's true, Allie.

00:02:57.560 The episode that we did, George Floyd and the gospel, which we released about a week and

00:03:02.360 a half ago, is approaching 90,000 downloads, which would make it by far the most downloaded

00:03:07.440 episode that we've done to date.

00:03:09.900 And as Virtual mentioned, we've been doing the podcast for close to two years.

00:03:13.440 We're coming up on our 100th episode.

00:03:15.760 There's a couple of reasons, though, for the George Floyd episode that's just different.

00:03:21.000 Number one, that was not an episode that we planned to do.

00:03:24.960 That episode is what we call a freestyle episode, whereby Virgil and I just got behind the microphone

00:03:29.420 with no notes.

00:03:30.240 It was no scheduling, no choreographing anything.

00:03:33.400 It was just me and him, two Christian brothers, getting behind the microphone, talking about

00:03:38.740 what happened with regard to the George Floyd incident in Minnesota, and looking at that

00:03:43.420 and talking about it really naturally.

00:03:45.080 Because if anyone who's listened to the episode can say, I did a lot of venting in that episode,

00:03:50.940 primarily out of the fact that here we are covering ground that we've covered so many

00:03:54.680 times on, as you alluded to, Allie, on the Just Thinking podcast.

00:03:58.160 We've covered so much of that ground already, but by God's grace and his providence and his

00:04:03.340 sovereignty, that episode continues to make an impact in the lives of believers and unbelievers

00:04:09.900 alike, because he gave us an opportunity to capture that incident within the objective

00:04:16.200 truth of Scripture and talk about it within that lens so as to eliminate any nuances, any

00:04:22.920 feelings, any subjective perspectives, and basically couch that incident in what the Word of God

00:04:29.160 says, which applies to every one of us equally.

00:04:31.740 Amen.

00:04:32.760 If you can, either one of you, Virgil, I'll go to you.

00:04:36.220 Can you just kind of summarize?

00:04:38.700 You don't have to rehash everything y'all talked about in the podcast, but from your perspective,

00:04:43.380 can you summarize what is the objectively biblical view of what's going on right now?

00:04:49.920 Yeah, we began the conversation by discussing the horrible tragedy that took place for George

00:04:56.560 Floyd.

00:04:57.900 One of the things that I appreciate about what we try to do on Just Thinking is we don't

00:05:02.500 shy away from the horror of what took place.

00:05:05.060 We don't run from issues, even when we deal with issues around slavery or Jim Crow.

00:05:10.020 We don't cast a blind eye to what took place in those instances, and we didn't in this case

00:05:15.800 either.

00:05:16.040 So we began the conversation by talking about what took place and how horrified we both were

00:05:21.840 about it, how our hearts were wrenched out of our chest as we watched this police officer

00:05:27.900 put his knee in the neck of George Floyd.

00:05:30.280 Then before, what the culture does from that standpoint is they begin to ascribe motivation.

00:05:36.180 They begin to describe things attitudinally with regard to what was the motivation behind

00:05:41.800 what took place, rather than focusing on the reality of what was most tragic about it was

00:05:46.760 not what motivated it, but the act in and of itself.

00:05:49.860 The act in and of itself was horrific, and we need to stop, pause there, and think about

00:05:53.980 that particular issue and be mournful about that.

00:05:57.100 So we talked about that.

00:05:58.380 We talked about the next step of what people do, which is they begin to attribute motivation.

00:06:02.880 They begin to attribute things like racism into the conversation, which don't need to be

00:06:08.560 interjected.

00:06:09.400 As Daryl and I discussed, regardless of what the motivation was, it doesn't make George

00:06:14.520 Floyd any more or less dead.

00:06:17.260 He is still dead as a result, and that should be the tragedy.

00:06:20.740 We talked about him being an image bearer of God, and that we should be mournful that any

00:06:25.060 image bearer of God, regardless of level of melanin in the skin, would be impacted in that

00:06:29.980 way.

00:06:30.260 We talked about our feelings about that, but mainly we anchored the truths in Scripture

00:06:35.140 with regard to a biblical anthropology regarding race, a biblical thought process about sin

00:06:43.060 and the role of sin in the life of believers and unbelievers alike, where it applies equally,

00:06:48.980 and how we as believers should view the entirety of the situation.

00:06:53.580 And Daryl, why do you think it is that people are so quick to immediately judge?

00:07:00.260 The heart-level motivations of something that is already tragic in itself.

00:07:06.080 Why are we so quick to do that and then to extrapolate that into a larger cultural moment

00:07:12.460 or movement?

00:07:12.900 Yeah, I think bottom line, fundamentally, it's because of the sin that's in our own hearts.

00:07:18.500 I mean, we are, as congenital sinners, quick to react to things that we think we can relate

00:07:26.540 to superficially.

00:07:27.520 So, for instance, with respect to what happened with Mr. George Floyd, a lot of our reaction

00:07:33.280 was tied to the connection that we have with the color of his skin matching ours, perhaps

00:07:39.000 maybe a socioeconomic connection that we may have had with the experience in how Mr. George

00:07:45.600 Floyd grew up, the experience that maybe some individuals have had with police officers themselves.

00:07:52.100 So, there are any number of reasons why we're so quick to react to situations like that.

00:07:59.000 But I think, as Virgil alluded to earlier, you know, when you talk about trying to attribute

00:08:04.620 motive to something like this, in this case, right, the clarion call was that it was racism,

00:08:11.260 right?

00:08:11.440 So, when you attach a suffix like ism to a root word race, to a noun, when you attach

00:08:17.780 a suffix to a noun, it's now a verb.

00:08:21.180 It's no longer a noun anymore.

00:08:23.060 But in the case of racism, when you're talking about an ism like this, you're talking about

00:08:28.340 motive, right?

00:08:29.160 You're talking about motive.

00:08:30.400 You're talking about impetus.

00:08:32.040 And that takes you automatically from a sociological sphere to a theological sphere.

00:08:38.520 Because when you go from a noun to a verb, and you're trying to impart a motive, in this

00:08:44.720 case, on behalf of the police officer, that makes it a theological question, which automatically

00:08:49.180 goes to the heart.

00:08:50.120 Because all of our motives, for better or worse, for good or ill, originate in the heart.

00:08:54.960 And I think that is what a lot of folks are missing.

00:08:57.540 And perhaps is why the episode that we did on George Floyd, the gospel, is being so impactful

00:09:02.500 because we've tried to take people back, not just to the act, but to the attitude that

00:09:07.480 led up to it, you see.

00:09:09.240 And that's why we have to start to remedy situations like this.

00:09:13.440 What do you think, Daryl, about the reaction that ensued?

00:09:18.520 Obviously, not the genuine reaction of sadness over an image bearer's life being taken, but

00:09:25.240 the rioting and the looting and the now calls to abolish the police system, the justice system,

00:09:33.680 imprisonment altogether.

00:09:35.180 It's really turned into a revolution.

00:09:39.080 What do you think, I guess, just in general about that reaction?

00:09:43.020 Yeah, that reaction is just part and partial of our just missing what is the fundamental

00:09:48.300 issue here.

00:09:49.440 The fundamental issue.

00:09:50.720 I sent a tweet out just earlier this morning where I made the case that injustice is an

00:09:55.740 attitude before it is an act.

00:09:57.940 It is an attitude before it is an act.

00:09:59.580 And what folks are missing here is that they're concentrating on what happened and missing

00:10:04.840 the big picture of why it happened.

00:10:07.260 Listen, each of us carries within us the same seed of sin that led to the perceived injustice

00:10:15.580 anyway.

00:10:16.000 And I say perceived because that situation is still being adjudicated.

00:10:19.740 The perceived injustice, we each carry the seed within us that gives rise to situations

00:10:24.920 like that.

00:10:25.480 And folks are quick.

00:10:27.580 We're quick to extrapolate ourselves from the situation in so much that we don't connect

00:10:34.660 ourselves with the police officer, right?

00:10:36.400 We're quick to connect ourselves with the victim.

00:10:39.440 When you look at this situation theologically, we have to go back to Genesis 3, the sin of our 0.61

00:10:45.980 first parents in the garden and the fact that that sin nature now resides within each one

00:10:52.080 of us.

00:10:52.500 And when we understand what happened with Mr. George Floyd in the context of Genesis

00:10:57.300 3, we would connect ourselves more, we're actually more relatable to the police officer

00:11:02.800 than the victim.

00:11:04.220 And see, what people are missing here is that the solutions that they're driving at in trying

00:11:09.320 to deconstruct certain institutions and structures and rebuild them into new institutions and structures

00:11:16.340 is that they don't realize that the same sinful attitudes that created those structures that

00:11:22.380 they want to deconstruct are going to be reconstructed simply by new sinners.

00:11:27.260 And they just don't realize that.

00:11:29.040 So we have to take the George Floyd incident in Minnesota all the way back to Genesis 3 if

00:11:35.000 we truly want to understand the big picture of what went on there.

00:11:39.120 Virgil, a lot of pastors are using this moment to not talk about sin and to not talk about

00:11:47.400 the fall and the only thing that can soften a sinner's hard heart being the gospel, but

00:11:53.020 to instead talk about exclusively racial reconciliation and even white privilege and white fragility.

00:12:00.080 What do you think about evangelical pastors using this to bring up those kinds of conversations

00:12:05.640 rather than gospel conversations?

00:12:07.200 It's disheartening on so many levels.

00:12:10.660 And because of the fact that the reality is the Bible already explains this.

00:12:16.260 Daryl and I were talking the other day and really identified the fact that when you begin

00:12:22.260 to walk away from biblical terminology, you walk onto the social turf of the culture.

00:12:29.480 And when you do that, that is an absolutely losing battle, that you've lost the battle.

00:12:34.160 And what we're watching evangelical pastors and preachers do is leave the pages of Scripture

00:12:39.660 for what they're seeing in the culture that's not at all helpful.

00:12:44.700 Scripture is clear about this, whether it's issues of systemic racism, issues of privilege,

00:12:49.840 all of these things can be identified through the pages of Scripture for what they are.

00:12:54.440 And the beauty of holding on to Scripture is that you anchor them back into the root cause

00:13:00.180 of them to begin with.

00:13:01.840 Daryl mentioned Genesis 3 in the fall.

00:13:05.480 When I think about issues around systemic racism, I automatically go to Romans 5, verse 12.

00:13:12.060 It says,

00:13:12.280 What is that if that is not systemic in nature?

00:13:24.080 Sin and death systemically impacts mankind.

00:13:28.080 And as a result, we see the horrible kinds of tragedies that we do in the culture.

00:13:32.380 But in an effort to be relevant, people have forgotten what it means to be righteous and

00:13:38.740 stay into pages of Scripture and seek the cure that can only be found through the gospel

00:13:44.040 of Jesus Christ.

00:13:45.380 It seems that a lot of pastors, Christian influencers are allowing the world and secular activist groups

00:13:52.180 define things that God has already defined.

00:13:54.900 So, justice, repentance, penance, holiness, righteousness, all of these things that God

00:14:03.580 has a definition for.

00:14:04.860 He tells us exactly what they look like.

00:14:07.180 But instead of pastors saying, hey, world, you're looking for justice, you're looking for

00:14:11.560 righteousness, you're looking for peace, I've got that right here in the Word of God.

00:14:15.120 They're saying, oh, actually, I feel that the Bible and the gospel are not only insufficient,

00:14:20.720 but a little inappropriate.

00:14:21.760 And so, you see a lot of pastors being a little bit embarrassed about bringing the Word of God

00:14:28.180 into these conversations, but instead are just listening to people with an atheistic worldview,

00:14:33.940 which means if you have an atheistic worldview, you don't believe people are made in the image

00:14:37.700 of God.

00:14:38.320 You don't even care about George Floyd's murder as much as you and I do, because they don't

00:14:42.220 believe he's an image bearer.

00:14:43.520 And so, we have, as Christians, we have a whole other level of care and of gravity about this

00:14:51.660 situation.

00:14:52.540 But unfortunately, I'm seeing so many Christians being willing to be informed and influenced

00:14:58.700 by the world because they have been convinced that the gospel is an insufficient and inappropriate

00:15:04.540 answer.

00:15:05.520 Daryl?

00:15:05.800 Yeah, let me just say this, and I really don't mean this to be condescending in any way whatsoever,

00:15:11.500 but we should never assume that because someone wears the title of pastor that they know what

00:15:16.900 the gospel is.

00:15:18.220 We should never assume that, okay?

00:15:20.360 What we're finding out is that many pastors and many professing Christians in general have

00:15:26.600 no concept of what the gospel is.

00:15:28.660 You see, the gospel works from the inside out, and this is what differentiates biblical

00:15:34.660 gospel from the so-called social gospel.

00:15:37.300 The biblical gospel works by the monergistic power of God in the heart from the inside out,

00:15:43.960 and as we obey God, then society benefits from that, okay?

00:15:48.680 However, the social justice tries to realize biblical fruit by working from the outside in.

00:15:57.000 You see, and when we have pastors and church leaders partnering with the culture and emphasizing

00:16:03.780 works for the sake of works, right, scripture says that we are to do works in keeping with

00:16:09.420 repentance, okay?

00:16:11.460 So the gospel inverts the approach of the world and says, no, heart change results in the fruits

00:16:19.560 that you want to see.

00:16:20.460 Heart change results in justice.

00:16:22.760 Changing laws, defunding the police.

00:16:26.480 I mean, look at this.

00:16:28.140 Why do laws exist fundamentally?

00:16:29.920 Laws fundamentally exist to protect us from one another.

00:16:33.620 So when you look at injustice, you understand that the struggle for injustice is really a

00:16:38.940 struggle with ourselves.

00:16:40.960 We're trying to find unbiblical ways, worldly, cultural, social ways to remedy an innate spiritual

00:16:49.620 problem.

00:16:50.540 And these ridiculous, absurd partnerships that many churches are making with the world and 0.82

00:16:57.680 organizations like Black Lives Matter, which have no concept of the Imago Dei, as you said, 0.54

00:17:02.940 Ali, which is where that should begin.

00:17:04.760 As Virgil alluded to, we should care with the George Floyd situation or any other perceived

00:17:10.780 situation of injustice that an image bearer of God was treated unjustly.

00:17:15.740 Not that a Black image bearer of God was treated unjustly.

00:17:19.340 So that's where it starts. 1.00

00:17:20.860 So again, the gospel has the answer, but many believers are ignorant. 0.97

00:17:27.240 And by that, I mean, they're unaware.

00:17:28.880 They truly have no solid concept, orthodox concept of what the gospel is and how God works his gospel

00:17:38.040 in the world.

00:17:38.960 Virgil, what do you think about using this moment or any moment to talk about what has

00:17:46.280 been deemed racial reconciliation?

00:17:48.520 Is racial reconciliation a biblical concept?

00:17:51.320 No, it's absolutely a misnomer.

00:17:55.340 Daryl and I have talked about this often on our show, and I got a chance to share this idea

00:18:01.000 with someone and basically said this, races don't reconcile, hearts do, right?

00:18:08.600 If Ali, if you were going to send someone of, and again, the idea of races is not biblical,

00:18:14.480 right?

00:18:14.800 Scripture is absolutely clear about that.

00:18:16.880 Acts 17, 26, we know from one man comes every ethnos, every nation of mankind.

00:18:23.340 So we're all a part of the human race.

00:18:26.140 So first of all, the idea of races is a misnomer.

00:18:29.500 So you can begin from there.

00:18:31.180 The other piece of the thought process when you're thinking about races reconciling, who

00:18:36.280 is the white race representative and what black race representative are they going to

00:18:42.620 send someone to?

00:18:43.940 And what are going to be the terms of this reconciliation that's taking place?

00:18:48.240 It's a misnomer to confuse people and really establish a permanent victim class and a permanent

00:18:57.300 oppressor class by which we guilt people into doing things that they wouldn't otherwise

00:19:02.000 do apart from what Daryl was talking about, which is true heart change.

00:19:06.220 Scripture challenges us to reconcile with God.

00:19:11.180 And as a result of that reconciliation with God in repentance and faith in Christ, we are

00:19:16.780 then therefore reconciled with our neighbor, with our brother.

00:19:20.740 And then the sin that takes place between one another is that which gets reconciled based

00:19:26.740 upon a Matthew 18 picture.

00:19:28.480 I'm going to my brother who's done me wrong or who's sinned against me, and we're addressing

00:19:34.500 that particular issue.

00:19:35.940 That's exactly how that's supposed to work.

00:19:38.300 And Allie, if I could just add something to what Virgil just said.

00:19:41.380 You know, listen, what we're talking about here in terms of reconciliation is no different

00:19:46.700 than what would have to take place if you and your husband, for example, had a disagreement.

00:19:51.220 If someone would say, well, you know, you guys are husband and wife, you should get along

00:19:54.220 because you're husband and wife.

00:19:56.300 As if to say being husband and wife should just sort of intrinsically take care of any

00:20:03.300 issues that you guys might experience within your marriage.

00:20:05.940 But no, those disagreements and issues have to be resolved one heart toward another.

00:20:12.420 You see, and I think about John Owen in his book, Indwelling Sin and Believers, he said

00:20:17.440 enmity against God is diffused through the whole soul.

00:20:21.560 This is through the whole soul.

00:20:22.740 You see, this is, so again, this is why I say injustice is an attitude before it is an

00:20:28.580 action.

00:20:29.360 You know, scripture teaches, right, that if we hate, if we have hate toward someone, that

00:20:34.040 we're essentially just a murderer.

00:20:36.400 We're a murderer.

00:20:37.000 And so only the gospel deals with the attitudes and the motive and the impetus that results

00:20:44.740 in the acts of injustice that we're seeing in the world.

00:20:48.220 What do you say, Daryl, to those who say, okay, I hear you that the gospel is the ultimate

00:20:53.040 answer, but look, we've got systemic racism and we've got to, it's not enough to just,

00:20:58.120 you know, love your neighbor as yourself, as God tells us to do.

00:21:00.540 We've got to be anti-racist.

00:21:02.500 We've got to check our white privilege.

00:21:03.860 We've got to dismantle systemic racism, and that is what they would say is, you know,

00:21:08.540 the manifestation of seeking justice and loving mercy, as Micah 6, 8 says.

00:21:15.820 And a lot of pastors are encouraging people to think that way, talk that way, and act

00:21:19.460 that way as well.

00:21:20.440 What would be your response to the Christian who says that?

00:21:24.080 Well, listen, the Christian who says that respectfully, anyone who wants to add to what scripture already

00:21:30.140 says doesn't understand what scripture says to begin with.

00:21:33.060 You see, I think there's a misnomer out here, especially within evangelicalism, that the

00:21:39.240 gospel means that the ultimate objective of the gospel is equity, is societal equity, okay?

00:21:47.380 Virgil and I did an episode on our Just Thinking podcast on a biblical theology of the role of

00:21:52.620 government.

00:21:53.240 And in that episode, we had an opportunity to exposit the distinction between equal and equity.

00:21:59.240 You see, and the world wants equity, but you can't have equity without partiality.

00:22:04.660 So someone says, well, it's not enough to love your neighbor as yourself, but you're essentially

00:22:09.600 telling that Jesus got his own gospel wrong, okay?

00:22:12.980 So, but for folks who would say that, they still—I hate to be redundant here, but I just

00:22:16.860 have to keep emphasizing.

00:22:19.000 The gospel works from the inside out. 0.58

00:22:21.660 You can renew laws, recreate laws.

00:22:26.260 You can tear down statues.

00:22:27.500 So we're seeing a wave of statues coming down again.

00:22:30.000 You can do all of that.

00:22:31.560 You can fix—you can—what you call fixing all the structures and institutions within a

00:22:37.140 society.

00:22:38.020 But at the end of the day, you're still dependent on the person obeying the law.

00:22:43.460 You're still dependent on the person obeying that precept.

00:22:47.180 You're still dependent on the person treating you justly, and those are instances that happen

00:22:53.580 on the inside of the individual.

00:22:56.880 Nothing outside of the individual can influence that person to treat you in a manner that you're

00:23:02.400 supposed to be treated as an image bearer of God.

00:23:05.280 So again, all of these are secondary and tertiary issues that take attention off what is the real

00:23:11.800 issue, which is why Christ came in the beginning, in the first place.

00:23:16.020 This is why Christ came, to regenerate our hearts, make us right with God.

00:23:21.540 And as that heart change takes place, then you see the fruit of that change in society.

00:23:27.200 But it's got to happen at the individual level first.

00:23:31.080 It's the equivalent of the Tower of Babel, right?

00:23:35.860 Man believing that they can create their own edifice to build utopia in an effort to get

00:23:43.480 to God, when the message of the gospel is that God comes to us, right, in the form of Christ

00:23:49.860 and redeems mankind and saves us from ourselves.

00:23:54.160 We still believe, for some odd reason, that God's methods, God's plan, God's prescription

00:24:01.080 is invalid.

00:24:02.980 And that we're required by the hand of man to do something different than what he's prescribed.

00:24:08.760 I mean, we're doing this in every area and every facet.

00:24:12.140 And so it's not surprising that...

00:24:14.200 And what's sad to me, Allie, is to see believers who should be laying hold to the truth operate

00:24:21.940 in those kinds of ways.

00:24:25.540 Virgil, you fight very hard for the abolition of abortion.

00:24:30.240 You've come on my show and we've talked about that.

00:24:32.660 It was a very popular episode.

00:24:34.180 People love just the practical advice and the gospel advice that you gave people.

00:24:39.900 I've heard pastors, a particular pastor, say, okay, why are Christians, I guess probably 0.97

00:24:45.840 you guys and me, saying, you know, just preach the gospel.

00:24:49.640 It's the gospel.

00:24:50.220 The gospel is the answer.

00:24:52.180 And I heard this pastor say, but you don't say that about abortion.

00:24:55.220 You don't say that about sex trafficking.

00:24:57.060 You go out and you do the work.

00:24:58.380 You dismantle the systems and you try to end those things.

00:25:01.620 So do you think that there is a hypocrisy for people like you and me to say, we want

00:25:09.040 to dismantle it and stop abortion from happening.

00:25:11.400 But when it comes to something like systemic racism, the gospel is the answer.

00:25:15.280 Is there a difference there?

00:25:16.700 Well, there's two things going on there.

00:25:18.320 One is a category error.

00:25:20.120 The category error to the point that Daryl was making, racism is an attitude.

00:25:27.020 It's a motive, right?

00:25:28.800 You can't stop what's in the heart of an individual.

00:25:31.820 Abortion is an act.

00:25:34.780 It is an action of death.

00:25:37.020 It is unjust.

00:25:38.380 It is a death.

00:25:39.000 Now, I would also argue in a separate way this.

00:25:43.400 And it is that we're not leaving the gospel back at the door as we go to the abortion clinic.

00:25:49.600 I'm bringing the gospel into conflict into that situation by being there, proclaiming the truth

00:25:56.960 of its message, letting the woman know that she does not have to sacrifice her child for

00:26:01.120 the purpose of the sin of sexuality outside the confines of what God stated.

00:26:06.260 And that the same God who produced life is able to take care of that life, given she'll walk 0.64

00:26:12.320 in the right pattern of righteousness that God's designed for her.

00:26:16.180 And we provide all kinds of resources for that.

00:26:18.740 And we're not breaking the law.

00:26:21.120 I'm not going to tear down some abortion clinic building or lay it to fire or any of those 0.93

00:26:26.700 things.

00:26:27.260 I'm operating under the guise of what the law provides, but I'm bringing the gospel into

00:26:32.000 conflict.

00:26:32.540 But again, that's a category error with regard to an attitude and a motivation and the person

00:26:38.560 who's being harmed.

00:26:39.720 I completely agree.

00:26:42.760 Daryl, I'm going to ask you what you might not see.

00:26:45.800 You don't want you might not see it as a controversial question, but some people might think it is.

00:26:50.720 Do you believe or in your experience or study, do you believe that systemic racism is something

00:26:56.560 that exists?

00:26:59.240 No.

00:27:00.060 Short answer.

00:27:00.860 No, because listen, think about this.

00:27:04.120 Nothing that is systemic occurs in a vacuum.

00:27:07.280 OK, so anything, anything.

00:27:09.080 Let's take, for example, if you've been diagnosed with a disease that's metastasized throughout

00:27:15.700 your body, that disease is now systemic throughout your body.

00:27:18.980 It's now systemic.

00:27:20.100 However, it didn't originate as systemic.

00:27:23.880 It has a definitive point of origin.

00:27:27.300 It has a definitive objective cause.

00:27:30.740 So anything that's systemic, we have to go back to the root origin.

00:27:34.940 Why is it systemic?

00:27:36.080 And I don't see enough objective empirical evidence.

00:27:38.880 I emphasize objective, objective empirical evidence that there is systemic racism in

00:27:47.300 America, because if there were, then Virgil and I would be victims of that because nothing

00:27:55.280 that listen, nothing can be systemic rather and have anyone exempt from it.

00:28:00.820 If it's systemic, that means everybody experiences it.

00:28:05.100 If no one, if there's even one person that doesn't experience it, then it's not systemic.

00:28:10.880 How can be, how can something be systemic and not be all inclusive of everybody?

00:28:16.180 How can something be systemic, Ali, inherently systemic, yet eliminate you, yet you're being blamed for it being systemic?

00:28:27.020 So it even includes you as well.

00:28:30.200 So my short answer to that question is no.

00:28:32.600 I'm not seeing enough empirical, objective evidence that there is systemic racism or what scripture calls hate, systemic hatred of a certain populace who happens to have a certain shade of melanin, be of a certain ethnicity.

00:28:49.780 I don't see that, because by definition, it would include people like me and Virgil.

00:28:55.520 And when I came to work today, the doors weren't locked for me.

00:28:58.300 So I, you know, I can't, I got in fine.

00:29:00.440 So I've been seeing and thinking about is you guys have heard the phrase, you know, the soft bigotry of low expectations.

00:29:11.740 This is something that, for example, economist Thomas Sowell talks about that you lower the expectations for a certain group of people or a certain kind of people because it's typically white elite liberals who say, you know, this group has been historically oppressed, so they cannot reach this standard.

00:29:28.280 And even if some do, they're the exception and not the rule.

00:29:31.520 And we still have to change the standards for this group of people.

00:29:34.080 We see that in things like affirmative action and different things like that.

00:29:37.960 But I think that we're also seeing it in the evangelical world where I've seen white pastors, they're willing to talk about the gospel or preach the gospel to their mostly white congregants.

00:29:48.020 And then when they turn around or have an interview or a conversation with a black Christian or a black non-Christian, they don't talk about the gospel. 0.92

00:29:57.020 They only offer pity. 0.61

00:29:58.660 They only talk about social justice.

00:30:00.920 They only talk about racial issues. 0.90

00:30:03.320 And it's almost like these white pastors aren't willing to hold black Christians to the same standards of holiness, forgiveness, tenderheartedness, righteousness as they are white Christians. 0.55

00:30:15.280 And I'm just not sure that's going to fly with God.

00:30:17.860 Virgil, what do you think?

00:30:19.060 No, I completely, completely agree with you.

00:30:21.480 I think you're going to get in trouble for saying that, Allie, but you're used to that.

00:30:25.700 So I think you'll be fine.

00:30:27.180 You know, I completely agree.

00:30:28.800 You see it in the media with regard to what's happening and the rioting that's taken place.

00:30:34.280 And that's just an expression of anger or rage.

00:30:37.180 And it's kind of accepted or nodded at.

00:30:39.760 Or if it's mentioned at all, it's mentioned very lightly where the emphasis is placed on an expression of what they're wanting to say.

00:30:48.880 You're seeing that to the point you just made inside of churches.

00:30:52.780 I listened to a dear pastor friend of mine this week, and I thought he gave a great sermon for his white congregants.

00:30:59.800 The problem was it missed the mark.

00:31:02.240 If I'm a black guy in his audience, I had nothing to repent of.

00:31:06.280 I had nothing to be concerned about.

00:31:08.140 I had nothing to take to God.

00:31:10.660 I was actually the victim for which every white congregant should at some point come and do something by way of penance on their behalf.

00:31:20.740 And so I agree.

00:31:22.420 I think it's not across the board.

00:31:24.260 We're not seeing it in that way.

00:31:26.120 And the gospel does that, does it not?

00:31:28.220 I mean, I'm walking a group of folks through the book of Romans.

00:31:32.260 And what does Paul do?

00:31:33.600 In Romans chapter 1, verse 18, he says, the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

00:31:40.720 And then, Ali, he spends the next three chapters taking apart every single group that can be known.

00:31:47.100 In chapter 2, he begins to talk about the Pharisees.

00:31:50.020 And if they were applauding him saying something to one group, give him just a minute because he's going to come and grab the next group and the next group.

00:31:56.980 And again, Daryl made this point earlier, which is the gospel is all about equal, right?

00:32:05.580 It's about an equal response to everyone with regard to their sin against the holy God.

00:32:11.320 And whenever that's parsed out in some way, shape, or form to not include a group or to overlook sin in a group or to not acknowledge sin in that group, whatever gospel that's being preached is not the biblical gospel.

00:32:24.440 Yeah, Ali, we did an episode on the Just Thinking podcast.

00:32:27.620 It's called, we titled it One Church, One Body.

00:32:31.000 One Church, One Body. 0.67

00:32:32.240 Virgil, remember this episode, right?

00:32:33.840 Where we took Mr. J.D. Greer to task because J.D. Greer was speaking before a predominantly black audience at some event in North Carolina.

00:32:44.400 Yes.

00:32:45.000 And he tailored his message. 0.92

00:32:47.500 He lowered his message to that audience because they were black.

00:32:52.660 And we specifically took him to task in that episode.

00:32:56.120 But, you know, when you go back historically and you read people like Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, both of whom were former slaves, both of whom were abolitionists.

00:33:06.000 Matter of fact, you can read many slave narratives.

00:33:09.040 And fundamentally, the one thing that all slaves wanted was freedom.

00:33:13.840 Now, they wanted their freedom so that they could make their own way.

00:33:18.040 None of them ever asked for their standards to be lowered.

00:33:22.760 They never asked for partiality.

00:33:24.340 They never asked for favors.

00:33:26.100 They never asked to be treated differently, even because of their oppression.

00:33:30.760 They wanted to be freed from their oppression under the Imago Dei, under that innate awareness.

00:33:37.040 Romans 1, right, that we know that there is a God.

00:33:40.040 And we know the difference between right and wrong inherently.

00:33:44.960 They wanted their freedom so that they could make their own way.

00:33:49.180 It is absolutely—I don't even know the adjective for it.

00:33:52.700 But when I see people reduce black people to what Virgil said, a permanent class of victims, it's absolutely—I'm outraged.

00:34:04.180 I'm righteously indignant whenever I see that.

00:34:07.400 And as much as Virgil and I try not to name names in that episode, though, we had no choice but to name names.

00:34:15.860 So I'm speaking to J.D. Greer right now.

00:34:18.480 Stop.

00:34:19.560 Stop it.

00:34:20.340 That's condescending that it is not worth the legacy of thousands, if not millions, of black people who gave their lives so that Virgil and I could talk objectively about such issues.

00:34:39.280 And he's embarrassing himself.

00:34:41.000 You're embarrassing yourself, leaders, when you do that.

00:34:43.680 Stop doing it.

00:34:44.680 It reminds me of another pastor that you guys have talked about who said that he would hire the black seven over the white eight, but not the black six over the white eight because that would be tokenism.

00:34:59.800 But again, that's like the soft bigotry of low expectations, Christian style, that apparently you have in your head that a group of people is almost inherently incapable of reaching the same standards as another group of people, while you're simultaneously turning around to your white congregation and calling them the bigots and the racists, when maybe they're not the ones who think that way.

00:35:21.180 Maybe it's you.

00:35:21.920 But I do think this kind of cultural, secular conversation or the rhetoric that we're having about white privilege and things like that, it blinds some of these pastors to their own inherent bigotry and sin because they're checking the boxes of worldly righteousness while they checked their privilege.

00:35:40.740 They've read Ta-Nehisi Coates.

00:35:42.320 They are talking about racial reconciliation.

00:35:44.460 They made a video about privilege for their congregants.

00:35:47.940 And so they believe that they are insulated from any kind of woke criticism, not realizing that they are actually the ones in a lot of cases perpetuating the condescension that they are accusing other people of perpetuating.

00:36:00.560 You're exactly right.

00:36:01.360 And I don't, go ahead, Virg, go ahead. 0.87

00:36:02.960 And how embarrassing for the black member or the person who worked for that congregation, right? 0.71

00:36:11.800 If I'm the black guy to whom he had said to this public setting, I'll hire the black seven, not the black six, when I thought I was the black 10 walking in. 0.99

00:36:20.920 How embarrassing for him to show up to work the next day and to be looked at by his peers as the only reason he's here is out of the benevolent heart of someone white who checked their privilege, who was willing to hire the black seven, all the while him believing himself to be equal to or if not better than anyone else who was hired for the position. 0.97

00:36:43.980 Yeah, Ali, let me say, listen, I'm not, I'm not saying every pastor is in this category, but a lot of people, a lot of them, a lot of them are cowards.

00:36:55.680 A lot of them just flat out cowards, because when you, when you, when you, when you think that you have to adjust your message from one ethnic group to another ethnic group, that tells me that you care more about your own personal reputation than you do the gospels.

00:37:15.480 Okay, when you're preaching the gospel, right? 0.94

00:37:17.860 Number one, scripture, if it's not clear on anything else, it's clear on this, that when you preach the gospel, you're going to be hated.

00:37:25.680 You're going to make enemies.

00:37:27.800 Matter of fact, if you're not making enemies, then you're probably not preaching the biblical gospel.

00:37:32.940 Okay, so I would challenge those pastors and they know who they are.

00:37:36.960 They're going to hear this message.

00:37:38.040 They know who they are because the Holy Spirit is going to convict them in their own heart.

00:37:42.060 They know who they are.

00:37:43.260 Stop being cowards and stop playing to the world as if you have to appease them.

00:37:48.520 Whose gospel are you preaching? 0.89

00:37:50.960 Is it the gospel with your name on it?

00:37:53.140 Or is it the gospel with Jesus Christ's name on it?

00:37:56.440 There would be no gospel if it were not for Christ.

00:37:59.360 Right.

00:37:59.520 Okay, so stop being cowards and preach courageously the biblical gospel that Jesus Christ preached.

00:38:08.140 Yes, and something I try to remind Christians is that you're never going to be woke enough anyway to appease the activist groups.

00:38:19.640 So you can get on board with their calls for justice, which, of course, are not actually justice because they're not rooted in God's definition of justice.

00:38:29.980 You can speak their language.

00:38:31.640 You can have all the conversations.

00:38:32.960 You can read their books.

00:38:34.120 They're still coming for your views on marriage and sexuality.

00:38:37.200 They're still coming for you.

00:38:38.700 So until you completely capitulate and in so doing renounce your faith, you're never going to appease them.

00:38:46.720 So why waste time now?

00:38:48.460 Why waste time now trying?

00:38:50.500 You know, I've said from day one, you know, there is no satiating the woke.

00:38:55.100 You just think of woke with an ellipsis after it.

00:38:57.680 Okay.

00:38:57.920 Woke dot dot dot.

00:38:59.460 Okay, because I say that because the definition is never fixed.

00:39:02.920 It always changes.

00:39:04.040 They're always moving the goalposts.

00:39:05.480 They're always raising the bar.

00:39:06.880 You draw a line here.

00:39:08.780 You think you're drawing a line of cement, but that line is really in the sand.

00:39:12.180 They just erase it and draw a new line.

00:39:13.980 It's every day, sometimes multiple times a day.

00:39:16.880 You know, so again, it's like Paul says, you know, who am I trying to please here?

00:39:20.200 Am I trying to please man?

00:39:22.320 Am I trying to please God?

00:39:23.540 Well, if I'm trying to please man, then I don't please God.

00:39:26.380 So you have to pick whose side are you on here?

00:39:29.100 You have to, you know, you can't have one foot in woke theology and then have the other

00:39:33.460 foot in biblical theology.

00:39:35.040 That's not how it works.

00:39:36.960 Virgin, did you have something to say, Virgin?

00:39:38.540 Go ahead, man.

00:39:39.340 I'm good.

00:39:40.100 You got it.

00:39:41.620 Well, guys, thank you so much.

00:39:43.900 I wish I could keep talking for another hour.

00:39:46.100 You guys have so much to say.

00:39:48.020 And so I have just gotten so much biblical insight from you, not on just this topic, which really

00:39:53.080 is just a fragment of what you guys talk about, but just godly living and biblical

00:39:57.160 living and biblical perspectives on the chaos and the craziness.

00:40:00.600 I think that you, through the power of the Holy Spirit, you guys are keeping a lot of

00:40:04.540 people sane.

00:40:05.500 A lot of Christians who say, okay, you know, I thought the gospel was enough.

00:40:08.920 I thought biblical living was enough. 0.99

00:40:10.320 I thought I was just supposed to love the Lord, my God, with all my heart, mind, soul,

00:40:14.540 and strength and love my neighbor as myself.

00:40:16.360 I thought Jesus's burden was light and his yoke was easy.

00:40:19.200 But now I'm turning to pastors who are saying just the opposite.

00:40:22.260 You guys, through the power of the Holy Spirit and God's word, is helping keep people grounded.

00:40:28.220 So just thank you so much for what you guys do.

00:40:30.900 Thank you, Allie.

00:40:31.660 Thank you, Allie.

00:40:33.760 Thank you so much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 15, 2020

Ep 263 ｜ Why Social Justice Can't Solve Racism ｜ Guests： Virgil Walker & Darrell B. Harrison

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