Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 282 ｜ Exposing & Opposing Social Justice Theology ｜ Guest： Dr. Voddie Baucham

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Friday. Today I am talking to Dr. Vodi Bauckham. I am

00:00:16.420 so excited about this and I know a lot of you are too. He has been so helpful in helping me

00:00:21.220 shape my biblical worldview and his ministry has been so influential over thousands and thousands

00:00:28.780 of people and he has special insight into social justice theology and how it is damaging the

00:00:35.300 evangelical church today and the particular ways that it is incongruent with the biblical worldview.

00:00:41.560 So I am so excited to talk to him, to hear about his story and his testimony, how he came to know

00:00:46.640 the Lord and how the Lord has led him down this journey of having so much influence and then we

00:00:52.540 will talk especially and particularly about the gospel and why it is better than the critical

00:01:00.020 theory, theology, and philosophy that is being shoved in our faces today. So without further

00:01:06.000 ado, here is Dr. Vodi Bauckham. Dr. Bauckham, thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:11.240 It's my pleasure. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad we finally worked this out.

00:01:14.700 Yes, me too. I think most people listening to this and watching know exactly who you are.

00:01:19.960 They have watched your videos, especially lately, but can you tell everyone who you are and what

00:01:25.220 you do just in case there are some people who don't know? Yeah, well, I'm Vodi Bauckham. I

00:01:31.240 am, I mean, I wear a lot of hats. I've been preaching for three decades now and have served the church

00:01:39.200 in a number of capacities as pastor and itinerant preacher. And five years ago, we moved to Lusaka,

00:01:47.640 Zambia. I was serving in Houston, Texas, where we planted a church there in spring in North Houston.

00:01:55.400 And the Lord called us to Zambia five years ago to come and help start the African Christian

00:02:00.980 University here, which was started by the Reformed Baptist Churches of Zambia. And so, yeah, we've been

00:02:07.940 here for the last five years. I'm married to Bridget for 31 years. We have nine children,

00:02:15.400 seven sons and two daughters, and we have now two grandsons. And seven of our children are actually

00:02:22.340 here, they're still at home. They're still here with us. So, yeah, that's who I am.

00:02:28.580 And you were born and raised in Los Angeles. Were you raised in a Christian home?

00:02:35.120 No. I was raised by a single mother, a single teenage Buddhist mother. My parents

00:02:44.740 met and had me when they were in high school. I got married because that's kind of what you did.

00:02:52.540 You know, I was born in 1969, but they didn't stay married. And so my mother raised me as a single

00:03:00.440 mother. She grew up in church, but eventually left that behind and went into Buddhism. A lot of people

00:03:12.160 are shocked to hear that, but there was a vibrant Black Buddhist scene in Los Angeles during that time.

00:03:21.020 It was kind of the whole age of Aquarius type thing, you know, and Eastern mysticism was big.

00:03:26.780 Yeah. Eastern mysticism was big and all of the free love culture and the drug culture and the

00:03:33.060 psychedelic culture and Buddhism just really was on the rise at that time. And so she didn't like

00:03:39.900 how political, in her understanding, the Black church had become. And she didn't want to be part 1.00

00:03:46.860 of the black power movement. And generally those were kind of the two streams, you know,

00:03:50.860 you got Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. And, and so my father, my father was more of a kind of

00:03:56.780 Malcolm X, you know, type person. And, you know, some of the people around were more of the,

00:04:03.100 you know, nonviolent, you know, Martin Luther King, you know, political means type people,

00:04:07.340 people, but she was looking for something more transcendent. Um, and so she became a Buddhist

00:04:14.120 and, you know, that I didn't grow up going to church. I didn't grow up around Christians 1.00

00:04:19.520 or Christianity. I'd never heard the gospel really until I got to university.

00:04:23.820 Well, that's what I was about to ask. How did you hear the gospel and how did you become a

00:04:28.340 Christian? I mean, I know that could be a, uh, an entire conversation in itself,

00:04:32.520 but just kind of briefly, how did that happen? Yeah. Well, I, um, I went to high school in San

00:04:39.840 Antonio and, you know, in, in, in Texas, um, you know, football is everything. Um, and, and not only

00:04:49.840 that, but there's the fellowship of Christian athletes is this really big, you know, deal.

00:04:55.200 And so in, in Texas high school football, when I was playing there, there were three things that you

00:04:59.820 did. And all of these three things had to do with the coach getting as much time with you as, as

00:05:05.240 legally possible. Right. Um, the state has all these rules about how much time you can practice,

00:05:10.180 how much time you can, you know, spend, you know, in meetings and all this other kind of stuff.

00:05:14.080 And so you played football and then you ran track because that was the way for you to get in shape

00:05:20.680 and get bigger, stronger, faster, you know, while you were preparing for football the next season.

00:05:24.760 And, and you participated in FCA, um, which again, I didn't mean a whole lot for me other than,

00:05:33.500 um, you know, there, there's another group, you know, on, on, on campus that I was adjacent to.

00:05:39.740 And so when I went off to play football in college, it was, you know, kind of a big buzz,

00:05:45.560 you know, uh, because I was, you know, considered a little bit of a big deal. And, uh, there's a guy on

00:05:51.620 campus who was working in, um, Campus Crusade saw in my bio. And it's always interesting when

00:05:59.820 you first go to college as a college athlete, you know, there's not a whole lot to put in your

00:06:03.860 bio. You've never played a game in college, right? You gotta, so you just throw everything in there.

00:06:08.040 And so he saw on there that I was affiliated with the fellowship of Christian athletes,

00:06:11.720 had no idea that this didn't mean anything to me and came and talked to me about the possibility

00:06:17.700 of starting a Bible study with the football players, realizing a couple of minutes that

00:06:22.360 I didn't know Jesus from the man in the moon. And basically he spent the next three weeks,

00:06:27.840 um, talking to me about Christianity, about the gospel. I had a lot of questions. Um,

00:06:33.320 I didn't really understand a lot of things. He tried to use this sort of, uh, for spiritual laws,

00:06:38.260 you know, with me, but I, there were so many assumptions even in that, that he needed to back

00:06:44.980 up, you know? And so we spent, we spent about three weeks together. Uh, his name was Steve

00:06:49.720 Morgan. Uh, you know, we still stay in contact to this day, but one day Steve came to meet with

00:06:54.960 me. It was Friday, November 13th, 1987. And I realized I didn't have any more questions

00:06:59.600 and I, I got it. And so I laid down on the floor in the locker room while I was waiting for him

00:07:04.940 and I just prayed. I didn't even know what to pray. I was like, God, you know, the thing you did

00:07:08.560 for Steve that he's been telling me you want to do for me now's good. Um, and, uh, yeah. And,

00:07:15.460 and just sort of never looked back. Wow. That is awesome. And you went to seminary,

00:07:21.180 you have several degrees. So how did that happen? Did you know immediately that you wanted to pursue

00:07:26.660 this professionally or what was that journey like? No, not at all. Um, I, I was, you know,

00:07:36.300 as we, as, as we say, you know, I was, I was on fire for the Lord. Um, I was excited about this

00:07:42.600 and that excitement came from a number of sources. Um, you know, when Steve came into the locker room

00:07:48.800 and he was late, I don't know why he was late that day. Um, and he would bring me material. I

00:07:54.140 would ask him questions and he would answer my question. Or if he didn't have an answer,

00:07:57.620 he would go get material to help answer my questions. And, you know, I guess he was late getting

00:08:02.720 some stuff together for us to look through or read through together. And he came and I'm just

00:08:07.180 bawling. And he asked me, you know, what's wrong? And I'm telling him what's going on. He's man,

00:08:11.580 that's good news. And I'm still just bawling. And he says, what's wrong? And I just said to him,

00:08:18.580 you know, I had a cousin named Jamal. Jamal and I were about six months apart in age.

00:08:25.420 And I was six months older than him. And when I got old enough to find a little trouble in South

00:08:32.120 Central LA, um, or for trouble to find me, uh, my mother shipped me out and I moved from Los

00:08:38.400 Angeles to Buford, South Carolina, where I went to live with her oldest brother, my uncle, who's a

00:08:44.400 retired drill instructor in the Marine Corps. And I got out of trouble, um, you know, very, very

00:08:50.380 quickly. And it was amazing. Just not only having a man in the home, but having GI Joe, um, in the

00:08:58.480 home, it was just, it was incredible. And he had retired, he had retired after 22 years in the Marine

00:09:03.720 Corps. And anyway, Jamal didn't leave South Central. Jamal started selling drugs and eventually Jamal

00:09:12.540 was shot and killed. And I had gone to Jamal's funeral the year before I went to college. And

00:09:21.060 so Steve comes to the locker room, I'm sitting there bawling, he's asking me what's wrong. And I

00:09:25.500 said, I should be able to pick up the phone right now and call my cousin, but I can't because he's

00:09:32.920 dead. And, and if this is true, and I believe it is, then I, I don't think I'll ever see him again.

00:09:41.380 And so Steve did two things. Number one, he sat there and he cried with me. And number two,

00:09:46.940 he asked me if there was anybody else that I needed to call. And so I started calling people,

00:09:52.260 I started calling family and friends and, you know, and, and, and just started evangelizing,

00:09:59.300 sharing, sharing my faith. And eventually started talking about that on campus. Um,

00:10:05.820 eventually I joined a fellowship of Christian athletes at Rice university and, you know,

00:10:11.420 really had my first preaching opportunity through that group. Um, and when I had my first preaching

00:10:17.760 opportunity at this group of meetings that we were doing at some high schools, um, I just,

00:10:23.720 I didn't know what to say other than I think I found what I was supposed to do. And, uh, I went,

00:10:29.920 I went and told the pastor of the church that I was attending at the time. And, you know, it was this

00:10:34.520 joke about, you know, black church experience versus white church experience, you know, and white 0.77

00:10:39.280 church experience, you go tell your pastor, I think I'm called to preach. And he says, okay, great.

00:10:43.640 We'll sign you up for seminary. Um, for me, I went and told my pastor, I think I'm called to preach.

00:10:48.120 And he looked at the calendar and said, third Sunday of next month, we'll all find out.

00:10:51.300 Oh my gosh.

00:10:54.140 And so, you know, that was, that, that was it, you know, sort of a baptism by fire.

00:10:59.280 Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. And so you ended up at Oxford several years later, correct?

00:11:06.000 Yeah. Yeah, I did. Um, so I, I eventually I left Rice my senior year. Um, nobody told me that you're

00:11:15.820 not supposed to transfer in your senior year, but, uh, I started preaching when I was a junior and,

00:11:21.600 you know, here I am, uh, you know, football player, you know, this future NFL prospect and I start

00:11:29.500 preaching and, you know, in Texas, what that means is you're going to get invited to go speak at all

00:11:35.520 kind of, you know, events all over the place. And that's what was happening. But again, I was very

00:11:40.580 young in the faith. I didn't know much at all, had just begun to, you know, read the Bible and

00:11:46.080 understand the Bible. Um, and you know, here I was, cause when I preached at my church, then they 0.88

00:11:52.060 licensed me. Right. So now I'm a licensed Baptist minister, which again, whatever that meant. And so

00:11:58.980 I'm getting all these invitations, but I don't know anything. And so, um, I, I, I, I was just

00:12:05.620 convicted. I need to know what I'm talking about. And, uh, so I looked into, you know, transferring,

00:12:13.120 finding some place where I could go and study and providentially the Lord sort of hemmed me in where

00:12:18.420 I needed to stay in Houston. You know, my wife Bridget and I, we married the summer between my

00:12:24.220 sophomore and junior year. And yeah, yeah. We, we met January 21st and married June 30th.

00:12:32.080 Um, yeah. And then we had our first child 10 months later. Oh my goodness. Yeah. We were,

00:12:40.100 we were efficient. Um, so Bridget was pregnant. Um, she was student teaching. She had to stop student 1.00

00:12:47.660 teaching because of some preterm labor issues. So she couldn't leave Houston. So I'm like, okay,

00:12:53.640 I need to start preparing. Where do I go? I'm riding around Houston one day and I see Houston

00:12:59.020 Baptist university. Never heard of it before. I go and talk to some people there and talk about

00:13:05.260 what's happening with me and what I want to do. And, and, um, long story short, I ended up transferring,

00:13:11.780 um, my senior year to Houston Baptist university. And I did, I was about 14 months. I took 46 credit

00:13:20.260 hours and 14 months at HBU. Um, you know, being married and a new father. And then I went immediately

00:13:29.100 from there to Southwestern Seminary. Um, and then I went and did, um, a doctor of ministry degree at

00:13:34.840 Southeastern Seminary. And I felt like two things. One, my, my, my credentials were too Baptist. Um,

00:13:42.080 and then two, I had some other, you know, personal things that I wanted to do. So I got permission to do

00:13:48.380 the last year of my doctor of ministry degree as the first year of a PhD or a DPhil and they call it

00:13:55.420 in Oxford, uh, the DPhil at Oxford. I got special permission from the president, uh, Paige Patterson

00:14:00.800 to, to go and do that. So we sold our home, we moved to England and, um, and, and spent a year

00:14:08.360 there at Oxford, um, while we were there, Bridget became, um, very ill. Um, we almost lost her that year

00:14:16.460 and we ended up moving back. Um, again, by God's grace, I was able to finish the first doctoral degree,

00:14:23.960 but didn't finish the second one. And, uh, but you know, that, that was, that was our little foray

00:14:30.300 into, uh, academic life in, in the UK. Um, Oxford was interesting. Um, you know, where people get

00:14:38.880 excited when you talk about studying at Oxford, but it, it was an ordeal. It was hard. Um, the best

00:14:45.000 way I could describe it is again, it was a theological, um, you know, education, but the best way I could

00:14:52.060 describe it is that the people that I was studying with there and learning from there, they believed

00:14:56.900 little and practiced less. Um, and it was, it was rough being in that environment, but I praise God

00:15:04.900 for it because it really helped prepare me for the ministry that he called me to. Amen. And you have

00:15:11.540 had, uh, a long ministry at this point, at least, um, it, it seems that way from what I know. We were

00:15:19.180 listening to you when I, uh, when you were on Focus on the Family many years back when I was growing

00:15:24.080 off. That's a program that my parents listened to often in the car. When we were going to school,

00:15:28.160 you've written several books, but recently a lot of people who are my age, who maybe didn't know who

00:15:36.080 you were before, didn't, uh, listen to you before, even though you've been around for so long, they have

00:15:41.100 now watched your videos on things like cultural Marxism, on ethnic Gnosticism, on social justice,

00:15:48.740 and they have gained a lot of insight from you and your sermons and your interviews on, on these

00:15:57.560 topics have really opened a lot of people's eyes into these dangerous and insidious forms of theology

00:16:05.600 that are seeping into the evangelical church. How did you start talking about these subjects in,

00:16:11.200 in what made you realize, okay, these things are a threat and I need to start discussing them.

00:16:16.300 So, you know, it's really interesting and I'm glad we, we segued into it this way because a lot of

00:16:23.800 people, um, don't really understand, um, why I deal with these things from this perspective.

00:16:32.720 Some people will say, you know, I'm trying to curry favor with white people. Some people will say I'm

00:16:38.920 insensitive. Some people will say, I don't understand blackness or black, the black struggle or,

00:16:44.740 or, or, or, or whatever, you know? Um, but here's the deal. My first book was published in 2004.

00:16:51.940 The title of the book was the ever loving truth. Can faith thrive in a post-Christian culture?

00:16:56.160 So here I am at Oxford, you know, to around, you know, 99, 2000, and I'm working on, um,

00:17:07.220 my, my dissertation, a critical analysis of the history and theology of the nation of Islam,

00:17:12.700 right? Um, the, the black Muslim movement, Malcolm X and, you know, and these guys and Elijah Muhammad

00:17:19.360 and, and, and, and so on and so forth. And, and, and I'm there at Oxford and I'm running into

00:17:26.620 this pernicious influence of liberalism and post-modernism and I'm, I'm, I'm seeing this

00:17:35.940 stuff. And so I, I, I just really begin to be wary of these threats. Um, this, this threat of,

00:17:47.660 of, of, of post-Christian culture of the, these, these sort of influences. And so I started, um,

00:17:55.840 you know, looking into things like Foucault and Derrida and, you know, you know, all of this sort

00:18:01.540 of stuff and also, you know, ideas of inclusivism and all these, all these liberal ideas, right.

00:18:07.120 That are, that are coming to the church. And eventually I start reading about people like,

00:18:13.260 you know, again, not just Marx and, and, and Hegel and people like this, you know, the sort

00:18:17.960 of, sort of classical Marxist stream, but also Antonio Gramsci and the Frankfurt school. Um,

00:18:24.600 and this sort of, this sort of new stream of, of cultural Marxism and critical theory and so on and

00:18:29.940 so forth. And so I've been talking about this stuff for nearly two decades now. And it's, it's,

00:18:37.260 and I've been saying for nearly two decades now that this stuff is dangerous and that its foundations

00:18:44.900 are, are creeping in and, and will have devastating effects. And so this is kind of how I came to this

00:18:54.520 and the way I described it to someone, you know, cause people have said things like, well,

00:18:58.740 you talk about this, but then you don't talk about that, or you talk about this, but then you don't

00:19:04.480 mention, you know, these justice issues or this or that, or the other. And what I say to them is

00:19:12.020 I've been standing on this wall for almost two decades, right? I'm not saying that there are no

00:19:19.960 other walls to stand on, but this, this one's mine. This is, this is the wall that I've been standing

00:19:26.580 on. And by the way, the enemy that I've been saying for two decades is trying to come over this

00:19:32.460 wall. Well, well, they're over the wall now. And so this is definitely not the time when I'm going

00:19:37.220 to abandon this wall. Um, so it's interesting. The other interesting thing is, so I wrote,

00:19:42.740 that was my first book in 2004. And then I wrote a trilogy of books, um, family driven faith,

00:19:47.580 family shepherds, what he must be if he wants to marry my daughter. And these books really,

00:19:52.620 I put in the category of applied apologetics and apologetics for biblical manhood and the importance

00:19:58.540 of, of, of, of the family and family discipleship. I've been pushing home education, um, and home,

00:20:04.880 you know, family discipleship for a long time. The interesting intersection between these things

00:20:10.540 is this, uh, according to critical theory, um, you know, there, there are, there are a lot

00:20:17.300 of forms. Racism takes a lot of forms. It is inherently structural and it takes a lot of forms. And one of the

00:20:24.340 forms, you know, Robin DiAngelo is famous for this. She calls it aversive racism. Right. And she gives 0.98

00:20:29.540 a list of things that qualify as aversive racism. And one of the things that qualifies is attributing

00:20:36.140 disparities between majority and minority or between oppressors and oppressed. If you attribute those

00:20:43.100 disparities to anything other than racism, that is aversive racism. Right. And so one of the things

00:20:49.940 that people, you know, are harping on is, you know, people who are talking about, um, you know,

00:20:55.920 fatherlessness and, um, you know, abortion and, you know, these sorts of things and, and, and

00:21:03.900 educational issues and stuff within, uh, minority communities. The immediate accusation is you're

00:21:11.620 victim blaming and you're perpetuating white privilege and white supremacy because you are

00:21:20.940 attributing disparities to something other than racism and saying that people can and should

00:21:28.700 do better. Right. This is just not allowed. And so interesting, interestingly enough. So here's,

00:21:35.220 here's look at my publishing record and the stuff that I've written and people are using,

00:21:41.180 the things that I've been writing. By the way, I grew up without a father. I grew up in a community.

00:21:47.100 I can remember, I didn't know people who had fathers, right? It just, it just, it just didn't

00:21:53.780 happen. It just did not compute that you had a mother and a father in your home. And so I experienced

00:21:59.720 these devastating effects. I see these devastating effects and I start writing about these things

00:22:04.360 because of the devastating effects that I've seen. And ironically, because I put the emphasis on that

00:22:10.180 syllable, people say that I've actually internalized racism. And so it's just, it's just, it's pernicious.

00:22:17.820 It's, it's incredibly pernicious. Right. Tell me, well, again, we could spend hours just on this topic,

00:22:25.860 but social justice, I think, well, you can tell me if you think that it is the umbrella under which

00:22:32.340 things like ethnic Gnosticism and cultural Marxism exist, or maybe you feel that Marxism is the umbrella

00:22:39.200 under which social justice and ethnic Gnosticism exists, or maybe you feel like critical theory

00:22:44.320 is the umbrella. So whatever you feel like is the umbrella, if you could describe what that is.

00:22:49.960 I think critical theory is the umbrella. And I really, I think you had Neil Shinvee on a while back.

00:22:57.220 Yes, I did.

00:22:58.460 And I love Shinvee. I love Shinvee's work. One of the things that I've really gleaned from him

00:23:04.280 is how counterproductive it can be to talk about cultural Marxism. One, because people kind of get

00:23:12.100 confused because, you know, there's a couple of different strains of it. And secondly, because

00:23:19.420 it does exactly what social justice does, but in the opposite direction. And so I've said for a long

00:23:27.760 time that the problem with the idea of social justice is that it frames the conversation in

00:23:34.100 such a way that if you disagree with it, you are not just wrong, but you're ungodly because you're

00:23:42.580 against justice, right? And so it really shuts down the possibility of any pushback. Well, I think the

00:23:50.440 same thing happens when we start talking about cultural Marxism. And, you know, nobody wants to be

00:23:56.180 a Marxist. And when I talk about cultural Marxism, again, I've been talking about this

00:24:01.000 for decades now and not just sort of pointing the finger and saying, ah, you're a cultural Marxist

00:24:08.140 and, you know, this and that and the other and putting people outside the camp. But I think talking

00:24:13.840 about critical theory, which really comes from the cultural Marxists and especially the neo-Marxist

00:24:23.700 and the Frankfurt School, I think doing that helps people understand that this is a worldview.

00:24:32.200 And because, you know, when you hear cultural Marxism, we know what Marxism is and everybody's

00:24:37.200 like, no, you know, I'm not a Marxist. So whatever you're saying, you know, I'm not that. I think when

00:24:41.880 you start talking about critical theory and presenting critical theory as a worldview, which it actually

00:24:48.120 is, I think it sort of opens up an avenue for people to understand what's going on and why it's

00:24:56.140 important to address it from a worldview perspective. Right. And basically in very simple terms, and you

00:25:03.740 can correct me if I'm wrong, but all of these terms have to do with seeing the world as the oppressed

00:25:12.360 versus the oppressor. Hegemonic power is basically how you classify people according to their group

00:25:19.920 identity. That is how you understand truth. That's how you understand morality. That's how you

00:25:25.460 understand economics and politics is the oppressed versus the oppressor and defining equity as

00:25:33.880 redistributing power from the perceived oppressor to the perceived oppressed. Whether or not that

00:25:41.120 oppression is actual, whether or not that oppression is individual, but simply according to group

00:25:46.960 identity, categorizing people as oppressed versus oppressor, and then trying to get power from the

00:25:53.180 so-called oppressor and giving it to the oppressed by whatever means possible. Would you say that that

00:25:59.280 is an apt description of kind of all of these things in a way? Yeah, I think that's a very good

00:26:06.900 description of it. It's really about power dynamics. I mean, that is the issue, that everything comes

00:26:14.340 down to power dynamics and people who have power versus people who don't. And there's a whole worldview,

00:26:22.880 and I would say a whole quasi-religion, a cult, if you will, that's built around these terminologies

00:26:30.660 that are designed to explain these power dynamics. But yeah, that's what it's all, that's what it's all

00:26:38.080 about. And it does, this comes from, you know, Hegel, who was Marx's mentor and Marx, you know,

00:26:47.140 these things, these things flow from that. And a lot of people just sort of jump on Marx, but you got

00:26:51.340 to understand when Marx is writing, you know, when he's writing, coming out of the feudal era and into the

00:26:56.400 industrial era and early industrialism, wasn't pretty, you know, these big factories and, you know,

00:27:05.640 child labor and all this, you know, it just, it just, it wasn't pretty. And so people have, people are

00:27:15.140 trying to explain, you know, how, how this thing works. And so that idea, you know, coming from even

00:27:26.260 from the feudal era where there are the haves and the have-nots and then using that as a framework to

00:27:31.940 understand this new industrial era as well, it really is a lens and it's a set of worldview

00:27:40.580 assumptions that sees everything from that perspective and can only see things from that

00:27:49.460 perspective and views the act of not seeing things from that perspective as a by-product

00:27:56.800 of the oppression of that perspective. Right. And that is why, as you said earlier,

00:28:03.840 that when you don't ascribe to the tenets of, for example, critical theory, people accuse you of

00:28:10.800 internalized white supremacy or internalized oppression. And so it really is a way,

00:28:17.260 I mean, it's really an epistemology. It's a way to understand knowledge and to understand truth

00:28:23.880 altogether. And it challenges the very idea of objective reality. I know you talked about on

00:28:30.080 Glenn Beck's program, that document that was put out by the Modern Museum of African American History

00:28:35.320 and Culture that, that associated whiteness with rational thinking and objectivity.

00:28:42.120 scientific method. Right. And I think we can laugh at that. So let's look at that in light of what's

00:28:49.820 happening right now. So Black Lives Matter is built on this narrative. And again, I'm here in Zambia and 0.85

00:28:55.860 it's, it's just horrible being an expat living outside of the United States right now, seeing the

00:29:02.440 picture that's being painted of America. And the narrative is that police officers are hunting and

00:29:09.460 killing black men. Do people believe that where you are, that that's happening in America? 0.64

00:29:15.140 Yes, they do. Yes, they do. That people, that the police officers are just, you know, hunting and

00:29:20.720 killing black men. And, and then you look at the numbers and the numbers just do not bear that out. 0.99

00:29:28.860 And then they go, well, okay, but you know, that's, that's the numbers, but you know, aren't,

00:29:35.820 you know, black people disproportionately more likely to be shot? No, actually the research

00:29:40.600 demonstrates to us now that no, it's not, we're not being disproportionately targeted,

00:29:46.600 you know, being killed by the police. Then they go, okay, yes, but these particular occurrences,

00:29:52.980 and there've been a couple of articles that have been just awesome. Um, one by Hughes and one by

00:30:02.400 McWhorter where they have basically mapped out how every one of, you know, these names that we know,

00:30:12.160 right? Philando Castile, um, you know, George Floyd, um, you know, Tamir Rice, all of these,

00:30:19.800 uh, all of these, every one of them has happened to a white person, usually multiple times. Right. 0.80

00:30:26.580 And so people know George Floyd's name, but they don't know Tony Tempa's name. Very similar to

00:30:31.540 George Floyd, except they had their knee on his back for 14 minutes instead of, you know, under nine

00:30:38.040 minutes and they mocked him while he died. So all of these points of the narrative, right. Um, are,

00:30:46.440 they're, they're, they're just not true. But when you start going to the data to try to demonstrate

00:30:55.460 this, ah, guess what? Now you're using the scientific method, right? Now using quantitative analysis.

00:31:04.640 And that, by the way, is white. Right. Right. And so now it's like, wait a minute, 0.52

00:31:13.220 you have a narrative that's not true. We can demonstrate that the narrative is not true,

00:31:19.780 but when I use quantitative analysis to demonstrate that the narrative is not true,

00:31:24.160 your argument is that the way I'm disproving your narrative is actually part of the oppression

00:31:29.960 that your narrative is trying to teach. Right. And so what's the answer? The answer is you have to

00:31:36.880 listen to black voices. You have to listen to black people's stories, but only certain, 1.00

00:31:43.440 certain black voices, they would not recommend your black voice. No, no, no, no, no. So they would 0.99

00:31:48.680 say that I'm not a black voice. I'm a black body, but not a black voice. The only black voices are the 1.00

00:31:55.060 black voices that agree with critical theory. And Robin DiAngelo. Exactly. Exactly. Well, 0.96

00:32:02.020 Robin DiAngelo is the queen of critical theory, you know? Right. And so the, you know, the assumption,

00:32:07.120 there's a worldview assumption that is the starting point. The starting point is critical theory.

00:32:13.420 And so critical theory sets the table as to what is true versus what is not true. This is the

00:32:21.040 worldview. This is the metanarrative, right? For us, it's creation, fall, redemption, consummation.

00:32:26.480 For them, it's whiteness, white privilege, white supremacy, and then white fragility, you know? 0.68

00:32:32.980 Right.

00:32:33.700 And so, you know, again, even you, we can't even, people say, well, we need to, we need to have the

00:32:41.400 discussion. Well, I mean, you know, I was born in 1969. All we've been doing my entire life is

00:32:47.740 talking about race. What do you mean we need to have the discussion? We've never stopped having the

00:32:53.220 discussion about race. Right. And the whole idea there is another idea that comes from critical

00:32:59.160 theory, and that is that this truth comes from narrative. This truth comes from the voice of

00:33:06.480 the oppressed, because the oppressed, and this goes all the way back to Hegel, right? The oppressed,

00:33:12.140 by virtue of their oppression, have access to a knowledge and understanding above and outside of

00:33:19.880 the hegemony that those who are inside of the hegemony don't have. And so this is where I came

00:33:26.460 up with the term ethnic Gnosticism, right? It is a, it is a form of Gnosticism that, that locates truth

00:33:34.840 in stories and narratives of the oppressed, but the stories and narratives of the oppressed have to be

00:33:40.960 told from the perspective of oppression, because if they are not, then they are being told from the

00:33:47.060 perspective of the oppressor and they are actually upholding and reinforcing that oppression. So

00:33:54.080 it's, it's, it's complete circular reasoning. It's nonsensical and it gets us nowhere. Um, and

00:34:02.100 Christians have either imbibed it and, or, um, they are trying to ignore it, but they're using the 0.99

00:34:10.040 terminology that comes out of it. Well, I think that there is a lot of, um, there's a lot of white 1.00

00:34:19.540 guilt that I think perpetuates or encourages particularly white evangelicals to embrace

00:34:25.860 this kind of stuff for the exact reasons that you articulated. I have sincerely Jesus-loving friends

00:34:31.120 who, after George Floyd, uh, was killed, started out of nowhere, it seemed like to me, regurgitating

00:34:37.200 these kind of white privilege, white guilt talking points when we hadn't even figured out whether or

00:34:42.800 not this was actually, uh, a racist, uh, murder or racist killing of a man. It was all of a sudden,

00:34:50.240 like it was just automatic, uh, an automatic regurgitation and reaction because of this guilt

00:34:57.220 that they have been convinced that they collectively bear and that they have to agree with the narrative

00:35:03.340 or else, like you said, they're just proving their white supremacy. And you can't talk about data.

00:35:08.840 You can't talk about truth because that's just proving that you're on the side of the oppressor.

00:35:12.640 No Christian wants to be on the side of the oppressor because we hear Jesus came for the 0.96

00:35:16.280 oppressed. And so like, what do you do? What, what does someone like me do to my Jesus-loving

00:35:23.960 friends who seem to be motivated by this white guilt and are just regurgitating things that simply

00:35:29.660 aren't true and are not biblical because they want to come across as loving?

00:35:34.580 Yeah. Well, you know, I've, I've been talking about just these, these, these, these five things.

00:35:40.400 One, we have to expose and oppose critical theory and, and, and all of these ideologies.

00:35:52.640 We've, we've got to expose this and we've got to oppose it. We just, we,

00:35:56.640 we have to have that as our starting point, right? You know, another thing that we need to do is we

00:36:04.380 need to make sure that we keep law and gospel in order. One of the things about this new religion,

00:36:11.280 this wokeness, is that it is very legalistic. It's, you know, you have to do the work of

00:36:21.180 anti-racism. That's how you do this. There is no forgiveness. You have to do the work of

00:36:25.220 anti-racism. You have to do it till you die. And we don't always know what that means, by the way, 0.98

00:36:29.320 it's always do the work and do better. But what does that mean?

00:36:33.080 Yes. And it's, and, and there's never solutions, right? There's never solutions. I think a third

00:36:38.460 thing is we need to have a mature and realistic understanding of our history. And, and, and what

00:36:48.060 I mean by that is there's, there's a couple of ways to have an immature understanding of our history.

00:36:52.100 One is that childish understanding, you know, my kids, I love to hear the older kids and the younger

00:36:59.200 kids debate about me, you know, and things will happen. Like, you know, one of my younger sons the

00:37:05.940 other day was saying how I could pick up the car. And the older son was like, no, dad's strong, but he

00:37:14.200 can't pick up the car. And the younger one is like, of course he could, you know, but that's,

00:37:19.260 that's being naive and immature. They think, you know, that I can do no wrong. And they think that

00:37:24.200 I can, you know, I'm a superhero and I, and there are some people who think about America like that

00:37:27.840 and they're absolutely wrong. But then on the other side, there's the 1619 project, right?

00:37:33.880 Which, which has the, the opposite of that, which is our parents can do no right. You know,

00:37:40.100 everything about America is racism and white supremacy and, you know, um, and, and, and nothing else

00:37:46.960 is to be understood about America unless it's understood through that lens. Well, I, you know,

00:37:52.440 I think we have to have a, a, a mature, uh, view of, of who we are. Um, and I, I think also

00:38:02.440 we need to make sure that we are fighting demons and not chasing ghosts. And what I mean by that is,

00:38:12.660 you know, when you ask people, people say, well, you know, structural racism, obviously.

00:38:18.180 And I just go, okay, what is structural racism? Right. And generally they'll eventually get around

00:38:24.880 to two things. One, a narrative, right. And it'll go something like slavery, Jim Crow, segregation,

00:38:33.660 um, you know, mass incarceration, redlining, um, you know, and all the disparities of today

00:38:41.600 are the result of all of those things. And because those things cause the disparities,

00:38:46.200 all of the disparities are de facto, uh, evidence of systemic racism. Right. Which again, critical

00:38:54.140 theory. Anytime you see disparities, the answer for the disparity is, you know, systemic oppression.

00:39:02.140 Discrimination. Right. Yes. Discrimination. And so the, the problem with that is when you see these

00:39:08.740 videos, the really popular one that went around a while ago was, you know, the, the Bob, the tomato

00:39:13.140 guy, um, I guess his name, you know, and he's just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Here it is. Boom, boom,

00:39:20.300 boom, boom, boom, boom. And then he does what everybody does. You know, he takes this, you know,

00:39:24.540 this selective tour through history. And then he says, I don't know what the solutions are.

00:39:30.700 Exactly. Well, why don't we have solutions? Well, because we're chasing ghosts. We're, we're,

00:39:37.360 we're talking about, you know, things that theoretically, um, manifest themselves in these

00:39:43.260 ways that, and we won't even allow for other potential explanations, which means we also don't

00:39:51.320 allow for things that could, could be, that could alleviate some of these things. Right.

00:39:57.300 Right. And so that's what I'll refer to when I say chasing ghosts, because you, you got to do the

00:40:02.400 work of anti-racism. Well, what is it? I don't know. A black person will tell you, you know? Um,

00:40:07.480 but no, no, no. But you also hear at the same time, if you ask a black person, especially someone who 0.83

00:40:14.820 is on the left side, well, black people shouldn't have to educate you. There are plenty of resources 0.94

00:40:19.880 out there we hear. And so what is it? Do we need black people or should we not? Exactly. But, but so 0.99

00:40:27.200 when I talk about, you know, fighting demons, you know, I'm talking about things that we know that we

00:40:33.880 are, that are out there that we can see. For example, you know, racism is, is very real. And one of the

00:40:40.960 things that we're not talking about is the Darwinian evolutionary paradigm that gives rise to modern

00:40:51.260 racism. Yes. I've been thinking about that a lot recently. I'm glad you brought that up.

00:40:55.820 It's idea that black people and white people, that the different races are different because

00:41:00.760 they've evolved from different primates, right? Black people evolved from the stronger, less 1.00

00:41:05.760 intellectual apes and white people from the, the, the weaker, you know, more intellectual 1.00

00:41:11.400 chimpanzees and so forth. And this explains the differences between it. Well, that that's racism,

00:41:17.020 right? Right. And so on one hand, we're upholding this evolutionary mindset that really dogmatized

00:41:26.600 racism. Again, there was, there was the idea of racism before, you know, Darwin sort of codified these,

00:41:33.460 these, these, these ideas. And by the way, he wasn't the first one to think in these terms,

00:41:36.940 but as far as the modern expression, that's the way that we think, well, we need to attack that head

00:41:43.640 on. Um, and so then you get to things like eugenics and the eugenics movement and, and, you know,

00:41:50.540 black people making up 13% of the population, but, you know, you know, more than 30% of the abortions,

00:41:56.320 you know, in, in, in black urban areas, more black babies are aborted than born, you know, 0.93

00:42:02.300 that's real. Um, the people who are fighting against school choice, who by the way, happen to 0.78

00:42:07.600 be teachers unions, right. Who want to keep black students trapped in underperforming schools. 1.00

00:42:13.780 And so the answer is not throwing money at them because we look at schools like the New Jersey 0.81

00:42:18.220 school system. There's an excellent documentary called waiting for Superman. Right. And everybody's

00:42:24.060 like, what's wrong with our schools? They started off that way. What's wrong with our schools? More money,

00:42:27.700 more money, more money. And then they show these people how much per student is being spent. And

00:42:33.260 immediately these people start going, okay, what are they doing with all this money? Because

00:42:37.200 absolutely ridiculous. And then charter schools are outperforming public schools, which is why the 0.65

00:42:43.360 LA Unified School District, right. They're now saying that they want to, to end all funding for

00:42:49.380 charter schools before they'll come back. By the way, they also want to defund the police,

00:42:52.180 which is a whole nother, um, all together because, you know, education and defunding the police.

00:42:56.540 And so, you know, so one of the things, one of the things that I've been involved in for a long

00:43:01.260 time is promoting the idea of home education because the national home education research

00:43:06.140 institute, um, you know, their, their, their research, and I'm so appreciate the work that

00:43:11.460 they've done is demonstrating that home education is one of the ways that the achievement gap

00:43:16.600 is bridged between black and white students. Right. And so promoting things like home education and

00:43:24.680 things like, you know, vouchers and things like this, um, police reform, by the way, there's a huge

00:43:29.960 difference between police reform and defunding the police. What's the difference? It's worldview.

00:43:34.200 See critical theory, critical theory sees the police as enforcers of hegemony. Yep.

00:43:42.060 As the oppressor. Yes. So if the police are enforcers of hegemony, well, that's why you talk to a black 1.00

00:43:49.140 police officer disrespectfully, if you're a young white girl, because it's not a black person, 0.87

00:43:54.160 it's the police, it's the hegemony. Right. And so if the police are, you know, a, a, a necessary 0.56

00:44:02.360 structure and things like this, well, then we, we reform policing. But if the police are part of the

00:44:09.040 hegemony, you don't reform it, you defund it. Yes. So this language itself speaks to where these

00:44:17.120 people are coming from. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, the language of defunding the police is the

00:44:23.560 language of revolution. And by the way, when you accept critical theory, the ultimate end is

00:44:30.140 revolution. And the reason everybody wants to say, I don't know what the solutions are is not because

00:44:35.080 they don't know what the solutions are. It's because they don't want to admit it because the

00:44:38.560 solution, the solution is overthrow the hegemony. The solution is revolution. And, but you can't say

00:44:46.180 that. Right. Right. And so anyway. And that worldview also takes away moral responsibility from the

00:44:56.240 oppressed. All of the responsibility for what ails the world is put on the so-called oppressor. And so

00:45:02.300 if someone brings up, for example, um, homicide in these, uh, inner cities that is typically happening

00:45:09.240 between black young men, they don't want to talk about that because the, they are part of an oppressed 0.99

00:45:16.220 class. And because they are part of the oppressed class, it is actually the fault of the oppressor whom

00:45:21.500 they would say, um, are the police officers that are causing that violence to happen. So I think that's

00:45:28.220 why you hear a lot of them say, okay, well, if we don't have the police officers anymore,

00:45:32.000 then you won't have that struck, that structure of oppression. And then crime will actually

00:45:36.760 go down. I heard a representative say the other day that if we defunded the police in these local

00:45:41.680 cities, it would just look like the suburbs just all of a sudden. But like you said, that is a world

00:45:45.720 view when you believe that one of the big things about over police. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

00:45:52.080 It is a, it is a, it is a worldview. Um, it, it, it is a worldview. And so, you know, but my thing is

00:45:59.760 the, the, the ironic aspect of this is that as you just pointed out, critical theory puts us on the

00:46:10.000 track, on the track of chasing ghosts, um, while they work toward revolution and overthrow and takes us

00:46:19.320 away from the track of actually putting our hands on things that are real and dealing with things,

00:46:31.180 you know, um, that are real. Um, and it's interesting, you know, again, so I'm a martial artist.

00:46:40.560 Um, and I, I practice Brazilian jujitsu and I've been training in Brazilian jujitsu since 2012,

00:46:47.140 competing in Brazilian jujitsu since 2012. And, um, a lot of police officers are trained in

00:46:53.440 Brazilian jujitsu. Now, the reason that they're trained in Brazilian jujitsu is because unlike

00:46:57.860 other martial arts, Brazilian jujitsu is about subduing an opponent with the minimum amount of

00:47:04.860 force necessary. Right. So whereas other arts are about, you know, hitting somebody as hard as you

00:47:09.480 can or kicking them as hard as you can, uh, Brazilian jujitsu is about using various forms of control

00:47:14.960 to subdue an opponent, an opponent with the least amount of force necessary. And so one of the things

00:47:22.800 that people are talking about, and this is just one example, right. Uh, of, of where you, where you

00:47:28.820 sort of get off the rails is they talk about chokeholds, right. And, you know, people hear chokeholds

00:47:34.940 and they think, you know, when you're choking somebody, you're trying to kill them. Um, and actually,

00:47:38.460 um, chokeholds, uh, save lives. Uh, it's sounds crazy, right. Um, but in Brazilian jujitsu, we use

00:47:47.680 chokeholds all the time. I teach people how to employ chokeholds. I use them, you know, when we're

00:47:52.400 grappling, I use them in competition. Um, and, and it, it is, it is a way to subdue a bigger, stronger

00:47:57.940 opponent in a matter of seconds. Um, and, and very rarely are there complications again, because you're,

00:48:05.160 especially there, because you're not windpipe chokes, you're not cutting off people's breathing,

00:48:08.240 but they're, you know, artery chokes where you're, you know, cutting off blood supply and people will

00:48:13.600 go out in a matter of seconds and they can then be handcuffed, you know, put in a car or whatever.

00:48:19.380 Now, the problem, however, is that the police get very little training in going hand to hand

00:48:29.620 and in using things like Brazilian jujitsu. So here's the great irony. One of the things that I've

00:48:35.540 been involved in since 2012 is training with police officers who are being trained in Brazilian

00:48:41.900 jujitsu so that they can, you know, use these things and use them very effectively. And the answer

00:48:48.440 is for police officers to have more training, not less, because here's the deal. If somebody my size

00:48:56.560 and I'm trained in martial arts, if a police officer goes hands on with me,

00:49:01.440 I have better training than he does. And I will probably end up in a better situation. We saw

00:49:09.300 this in Atlanta where two police officers couldn't handle, you know, this, this, this, this, uh, you,

00:49:14.520 you know, uh, Richard Brooks, Richard Brooks. Right. And so he ends up, you know, overpowering them,

00:49:21.080 taking their weapon and he ends up getting shot. But here's the thing. If police officers are going to

00:49:26.620 take a guy like, like me, you know, my size with my kind of training and they're going to go hands

00:49:32.460 on with me and I'm not going to go willingly. Well, they're either going to have to, if they can't

00:49:37.360 choke me, they're going to have to beat me into submission. And of course that film will be all

00:49:43.540 over the place and my family will get millions or they're going to have to tase me, which they tried

00:49:49.700 to do with Richard Brooks. And that didn't work out so well. Or they're going to have to shoot me.

00:49:54.260 I would much rather these guys be trained properly in the use of, you know, these, these restraints

00:50:02.680 and, and, and, and methodologies. But instead of doing that, we're just going, nope, we're outlawing

00:50:08.840 this. And actually we're ironically putting people in more danger, um, by these sort of things not

00:50:15.720 happening. So that's just kind of one example of what I'm talking about. When I say, you know,

00:50:19.920 there's this narrative here and we, you know, go down the road of this narrative and think that

00:50:27.180 we're working towards solutions and think that anybody on the other side of this, right.

00:50:31.840 Is somebody who's just, you know, trying to, you know, increase oppression or whatever. Um, when,

00:50:37.500 when, when nothing can be further from the truth.

00:50:39.920 And unfortunately this is Republicans and Democrats kind of fail in this arena that we only pay attention

00:50:46.300 to the inner cities when we're kind of talking about them only almost as political pawns as a

00:50:51.880 way to either indict the Democrats that are over these cities or Democrats saying that we're having

00:50:58.040 guns flood in from the red States and different things like that. And it's really unfortunate.

00:51:01.640 And as we are unwilling and unable to have these productive conversations, like you were just

00:51:06.960 talking about of solutions, there are unfortunately people suffering. Uh, there are police officers

00:51:12.260 suffering. There are these inner cities suffering. And so, um, critical theory and the worldview that

00:51:17.380 it, that it brings has disastrous and very tangible effects, especially on vulnerable communities. So,

00:51:25.480 um, I appreciate you bringing that up. Could you, I know that we have to let you go. Could you do me

00:51:29.640 just one favor, but before we leave, uh, there are people who are listening to this while most people

00:51:35.300 who listen to this podcast are already Christians and they are seeking to, um, strengthen their

00:51:40.380 biblical worldview. There may be people who are listening to this, who do not know the gospel.

00:51:45.100 Could you just briefly share the gospel to those people who maybe haven't heard it before?

00:51:50.580 Yeah. You know, it's great. We've been talking about this worldview and how this worldview,

00:51:54.840 you know, sees what's wrong with the world and critical theory sees oppressors and oppressed.

00:52:01.100 And the Bible has a worldview as well. And we talked about that metanarrative creation, 0.55

00:52:06.660 fall, redemption, consummation. There's a God who created the world and he created this

00:52:10.300 perfect world. Um, but then there was a fall, uh, our forefather, Adam fell into sin and all of us

00:52:16.800 are guilty because of Adam's sin. He was our federal head, our representative, if you will.

00:52:23.640 And that brings not only guilt, but it also gives us a sin nature and we are selfish and we desire our

00:52:33.720 own way. And we are opposed to God and opposed to all things that remind us of God. And our God is

00:52:44.160 holy and he is just, and he must, and he will punish sin. And we all know that, which is why one of the

00:52:49.880 first things that we learned how to say is that's not fair, right? We want justice. We crave justice.

00:52:56.000 And that's because of the God who created us as a just God, but justice demands that we pay for our

00:53:01.820 sin. And that payment for our sin is separation from God and separation, not only through death,

00:53:07.580 but eternal separation in hell. But again, creation, fall, redemption. Where's that redemption come from?

00:53:15.400 Even when the fall happens, God says, as the curse comes down upon the serpent, I'll put enmity between

00:53:23.440 you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He'll, you'll bruise his heel, but he'll, 0.56

00:53:28.120 he'll bruise your head. And so Christ, the God, man, God wraps himself in flesh. He not only takes on

00:53:34.020 our humanity, but he takes on our guilt. He dies a vicarious substitutionary atoning death on the cross.

00:53:40.180 He dies a death that he doesn't owe in order to atone and pay a debt that we owe, but can't pay.

00:53:47.580 And because of that, as Paul says in Romans, God is able to be just because he punishes sin in Jesus

00:53:53.240 and the justifier of the one who places faith in Jesus. And so we come to Christ, our substitute,

00:54:01.420 acknowledging our need for him, repenting of our sin, turning to Christ and his finished work.

00:54:07.140 And God grants to us the righteousness that belongs to Christ and places upon him the sinfulness that

00:54:16.160 is ours. That's creation, fall, there's redemption and then consummation. Listen, our hope is not in

00:54:22.560 doing the work of anti-racism. Our hope is in the age to come. God will restore everything that is

00:54:31.320 broken. And we have a promise of that in his word, a guarantee of that because of the person and

00:54:38.000 finished work of Jesus Christ, who will return again and set all things right. And in the meantime,

00:54:44.340 our prayer is thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And so we are interested

00:54:50.320 in these issues and we do pursue these things, not because we're looking for heaven on earth or believe

00:54:56.320 we can create heaven on earth, but because we have a yearning in us for that which is broken

00:55:01.560 to be repaired. And Christ will come again and do that, beginning with the individual who comes to

00:55:07.940 him through faith in his person and work. Thank you so much. Amen. Well, I really appreciate you

00:55:15.020 taking the time to talk to me today amidst your busy schedule. People can find you online,

00:55:21.520 Vodibachum.com. Is that correct? Dot org. Dot org. Okay. Yeah. And if they have a hard time with

00:55:28.080 that, just put Vodie, V-O-D-D-I-E and you will find me. Yes. There aren't very many who share your

00:55:36.000 name. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining us today. Thank you. It's my pleasure.

00:55:41.600 Thank you. So I just wanted to add a little closer to this episode because I wanted to go a tiny bit

00:55:49.500 deeper on what we were talking about when I brought up sincere, Jesus-loving people, particularly

00:55:55.440 women regurgitating these critical theory talking points and regurgitating things about white guilt 1.00

00:56:06.080 and white privilege and doing the work of anti-racism, not realizing that they are borrowing

00:56:13.020 from an anti-biblical worldview. And if you need to know more about that, go listen to my interview

00:56:18.140 with Neil Shenvey. We talked about critical theory, what it is, what all of these terms that we talked

00:56:22.800 about today really mean and how they are so damaging to biblical theology. Go back and listen to that

00:56:29.460 conversation. It's going to blow your mind if you haven't listened to it. If you have listened to it,

00:56:33.940 go back and listen to it again and take notes. It is so important to understand what critical theory is

00:56:38.920 and why it is simply incongruent with biblical theology. And look, to the Christian women out there 1.00

00:56:44.200 who have been reading things like white fragility and trying to apply it to their lives, who have

00:56:48.880 been told that in order to be a good Christian, you have to, quote, do the work of anti-racism and you

00:56:54.300 have to talk about so-called systemic racism and you have to look at every discrimination or every

00:56:59.680 disparity that exists between different ethnic groups and different socioeconomic classes and

00:57:05.020 ascribe those disparities to discrimination and racism. I would just highly encourage you to take a step

00:57:11.180 back and to look at the worldview that you are propagating and realize that it is not a biblical

00:57:16.260 worldview. You can listen to more videos and sermons by Dr. Voti Bakum. You can go to

00:57:22.960 shinviapologetics.com. My friend Samuel Say has a really good blog with resources and book reviews that

00:57:28.980 talk about all of this. My friend Neil Shinvi at shinviapologetics.com. He has reviews on Color of

00:57:34.040 Compromise, on Be the Bridge, on White Fragility, on White Awake, all of these books that are being

00:57:40.600 encouraged and are being promoted by the church right now, they at least deserve a second look

00:57:47.240 from a biblical perspective. And let me just tell you, if you are a Christian who has bought into the

00:57:52.400 idea that you have to push the social justice narratives in order to be loving, in order to be

00:58:00.840 kind, in order to be on the side of justice and mercy, I just want you to know that you have been

00:58:07.680 duped. You've been duped. All the answers that we need for what justice looks like, for what mercy

00:58:12.680 looks like, for what love looks like, for what treating people as equal image bearers of God

00:58:19.640 looks like, it can all be found in Scripture. We don't have to borrow from critical theory in order

00:58:25.660 to be lovers of justice. In fact, we have to go into God's Word to tell us what justice actually

00:58:31.680 looks like. We have to go into the Word of God to tell us what love and treating people equally

00:58:36.280 and well and respectfully actually looks like. We don't need to borrow from secular ideologies in

00:58:42.660 order to be better Christians. That's ridiculous. And even if you have so-called Christians, professing 1.00

00:58:49.040 Christians, perpetuating this kind of ideology, that doesn't mean that it's Christ-like. It doesn't mean

00:58:54.860 that it's right. And so I would just encourage you to take a step back and to examine some of the

00:59:00.980 things that you have not just read, but you've internalized and then regurgitated in the name of

00:59:05.200 justice and mercy and weigh them against what the Word of God says. And I just pray for me, for you,

00:59:11.900 for all of us to be discerning, to be as wise as we possibly can, and to realize that the gospel

00:59:18.200 is not only enough, it is the only thing that is enough. And that doesn't mean that we don't also

00:59:26.500 obey God in our lives. That doesn't mean that we don't also pursue just policies. That doesn't mean

00:59:33.160 that we don't care about justice and injustice. Of course, we do. And yes, sure, there is work

00:59:39.720 associated with that and making sure that you are trying to vote for a government that represents,

00:59:48.260 that is representative of real equity and real justice. And so a government that is not

00:59:55.920 discriminating against the rich, a government that is not discriminating against the poor,

01:00:00.440 a government that is not discriminating against white or black, of course, that is something

01:00:04.900 that we all want while still realizing that societies don't change without changed hearts

01:00:12.100 and hearts don't change without the gospel of Jesus Christ. And critical theory with the worldview

01:00:18.360 that says everyone is the oppressed versus the oppressor and every disparity between those two

01:00:22.820 groups is based on oppression and discrimination and racism. It is incongruent with a biblical view

01:00:28.860 and a biblical definition of justice. And plus, it's just not accurate. And that's another thing

01:00:33.180 that I want to say really quickly. So unfortunately, I have gotten into contentious conversations with

01:00:39.180 Christian friends in bringing up data that we talked about today that questioning the narrative

01:00:46.440 that says that black people are being hunted by white people are being hunted by white police officers,

01:00:53.420 that the fatherlessness rate, the abortion rate in the black community, it's all due to systemic racism. 0.81

01:00:59.660 If you push back on that, even citing so-called black voices like Thomas Sowell, like John McWhorter,

01:01:05.360 like Jason Reilly, like Votie Bauckham, you get lambasted and you get accused of not being sufficiently

01:01:13.200 empathetic. You get accused of not being sufficiently compassionate because we are just supposed to

01:01:17.980 listen and agree to people, you know, Black Lives Matter activists, for example, without saying,

01:01:25.820 hey, that's actually not factually true. The data doesn't actually back that up. And actually,

01:01:30.880 the biggest takers of black lives are abortion and black-on-black crime in these inner city 0.99

01:01:36.380 communities. If you say that, that is considered racist. That is considered not compassionate. 0.99

01:01:41.560 Well, I would just caution you from taking on that mentality. And for, I would caution you from

01:01:51.600 buying into the lie that says that you just have to nod in agreement when someone says that their

01:01:58.220 experience equates to, equates to national data or when an experience or a perspective is absolute

01:02:11.240 truth that applies to the entire American system, I would just caution you from embracing that. It is

01:02:18.640 not lacking compassion to talk about data in a truthful and loving way. It is not lacking compassion

01:02:25.900 to talk about real solutions like we did today. Better training for police officers, school choice,

01:02:31.600 making sure that mothers are cared for and well-equipped to care for their children, and making sure that

01:02:37.220 Planned Parenthood doesn't plant their abortion mills specifically in these poor minority communities 0.97

01:02:43.140 to make sure that they are getting as much business as possible from killing these black and minority 1.00

01:02:49.680 babies. It is not lacking compassion to push back against that, because you see that embracing the 0.99

01:02:57.320 narrative that every discrimination or every disparity that exists is due to discrimination, or that black

01:03:03.080 people are disproportionately being hunted by white police officers. You see what kind of disarray and

01:03:08.100 what kind of chaos that causes when it's not based on reality. It's just not based on truth, and it is

01:03:13.900 not loving to allow someone to react to something that is not based on reality and truth. And like he said

01:03:20.900 about the VeggieTales video about systemic racism, you point to all of these disparities, and you just say

01:03:28.360 that it's due to discrimination without any proof whatsoever, and then you say there's really no

01:03:33.200 solution. You just have to do the work of anti-racism, whatever that may be. And I just don't think these

01:03:38.860 nebulous conversations help anyone. I don't think they help anyone. So I encourage you, I've got some homework

01:03:44.940 for you, read Discrimination and Disparities by Thomas Sowell. Go listen to more of Odie Bauckham's stuff. Go read

01:03:53.400 people like John McWhorter. Listen to people like Glenn Lowry, Coleman Hughes. Those are not

01:03:57.940 conservatives, by the way, but they have a very nuanced perspective on things like systemic racism.

01:04:03.060 And allow yourself to be challenged. I allow myself to be challenged reading Color of Compromise and

01:04:08.460 Wide Awake and other books that, you know, the authors I don't necessarily agree with politically,

01:04:15.660 but I am able to take in some of the things that they say that I think are productive and then realize

01:04:20.720 some of the worldview that they are perpetuating simply isn't a biblical worldview. And so I will

01:04:25.840 never discourage you from reading things critically like that, but just make sure that we are imbibing

01:04:31.200 information critically from all sides and allowing ourselves to be challenged by truth and by fact,

01:04:37.000 not just by one person's experience or perspective, but by truth and data and facts, and most importantly,

01:04:42.220 challenged and shaped and honed by the gospel of Jesus Christ and by the word of God, which is

01:04:48.380 supposed to shape our worldview. So I just wanted to end on that. And I wanted to challenge you

01:04:53.380 specifically, those of you who are listening to this, who disagree with me on everything that I say

01:04:57.220 to widen your perspective, dare I say, listen to black voices is what we're always told, but maybe

01:05:04.100 listen to those that are outside of your ideological camp and just allow yourself to be honed and to be

01:05:11.580 shaped in that way. And I think it is, it would be much better if we were able to have conversations

01:05:18.340 from between the disagreeing sides that don't erupt in accusations, blanket accusations and empty

01:05:26.560 accusations of racism simply because someone has a pushback. Okay. That's all I have to say. I hope that

01:05:32.420 you guys have a great day and a great weekend, and I will see you back here on Monday. We will be

01:05:36.260 talking about next week. We'll be talking about the end times with Jeff Durbin, and I'm so excited

01:05:42.400 about it. So I will see you guys then.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 31, 2020

Ep 282 ｜ Exposing & Opposing Social Justice Theology ｜ Guest： Dr. Voddie Baucham

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