Ep 283 ｜ Are We in the End Times？ Part 1： How We Interpret Revelation Matters ｜ Guest： Jeff Durbin
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
193.06906
Summary
In this episode, Pastor Jeff Durbin joins me to discuss the theology of the end times. Jeff is a pastor at Apologia Church in Phoenix, Arizona. He is a post-millennialist, but he used to be a pre-millennennialist as well. In this conversation, we discuss how he came to believe in the end-time, and how it has shaped his life.
Transcript
00:00:11.820
So I have an awesome conversation with you today.
00:00:14.640
It is a very full, theologically rich conversation.
00:00:18.680
I'm going to be talking to apologist and pastor Jeff Durbin about the end times.
00:00:24.460
We have two different perspectives on the end times.
00:00:26.840
And if you just need a primer for what post-millennialist means or pre-millennialist means or post-trib,
00:00:33.220
pre-trib, dispensationalist, if you are not sure about those end times words and all of
00:00:40.220
that vocabulary, you can go back and you can listen to an episode I did a while ago called
00:00:44.900
The End Times where I tried to break that down.
00:00:49.980
So you can go back and listen to or watch that.
00:00:52.360
GotQuestions.org is also a good website that kind of can tell you the different terms
00:01:01.600
I will say the site isn't without its own bias and perspective.
00:01:05.260
And so just make sure that you are weighing everything against the Word of God, especially
00:01:09.160
when and after you listen to this conversation.
00:01:12.220
I also recommend Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.
00:01:15.320
He goes through each position, each eschatological position.
00:01:19.740
And so that would be a great primer for this episode.
00:01:23.060
But of course, if you are someone who kind of already understands the end times and you've
00:01:26.120
got your own perspective, this is going to be extremely enriching, hopefully challenging
00:01:30.200
for you and gets you to think a little bit about what you believe about the end times.
00:01:34.640
Such an important conversation because as you will see, as I talk to Jeff, this really does
00:01:39.600
shape not just how you think, but the way that you live your life.
00:01:54.500
Most people who are listening to this probably know who you are and listen to you as well.
00:01:59.000
But just in case, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
00:02:03.980
I'm a pastor at Apologia Church and host of Apologia Radio.
00:02:11.480
I have been a pastor for a very, very long time.
00:02:15.600
I started Apologia Church when I was the chaplain at a drug rehab.
00:02:19.700
I was a pastor at another church in Phoenix, and I was also a full-time chaplain at a hospital,
00:02:29.140
So many people came to Christ out of addiction.
00:02:43.540
We do a lot of ministry in the area of abortion.
00:02:48.340
And so End Abortion Now is one ministry of Apologia Church.
00:02:51.440
And we've raised up over 500 churches, mostly across the United States, but also globally,
00:02:58.220
And at this point, there's been thousands and thousands of children saved.
00:03:02.220
And that particular ministry has two aspects to it.
00:03:07.520
The other is actually working to speak prophetically to legislators to work towards the ultimate
00:03:19.800
And we can talk about any number of those topics for the entirety of our conversation.
00:03:24.380
Today, we are going to talk about one topic that I love to listen to you on, even though
00:03:32.480
You are a post-millennialist, but you used to be a pre-millennialist, correct?
00:03:41.240
And so first, I just want to hear how you kind of took that theological and eschatological
00:03:49.180
So I wasn't raised in a Christian home and so had really no understanding of the Bible.
00:03:55.660
And I saw a movie about Jesus as a kid and so knew there was a person named Jesus who
00:04:00.040
died on a cross and people claimed he rose again from the dead.
00:04:03.560
There was a Bible in my parents' stereo system wherever we went in the world.
00:04:07.600
I'm an Air Force brat, so we're always traveling.
00:04:10.820
And that Bible just sort of sat there collecting dust.
00:04:12.800
So I mean, that's about my understanding of Christianity.
00:04:16.100
And then hearing the gospel, having a profession of faith in Jesus, my—so I hadn't gone to
00:04:22.140
church, so I didn't grow up in church, wasn't going to listen to sermons, I mean, really
00:04:28.820
And so my first Bible study that I went to, I vividly remember it, actually.
00:04:35.700
And so I go to this house, and it was a youth group.
00:04:43.560
They were in the living room, and they were watching a movie.
00:04:48.240
And it was an awful, typically awful Christian film that was on the tribulation.
00:04:55.900
Maybe it was Thief in the Night or something like that.
00:05:00.280
And, of course, it was very low-budget and a terrible movie.
00:05:03.780
But my—so my very first Bible study was on eschatology.
00:05:08.760
And the perspective that I was given was dispensational premillennialism.
00:05:21.460
But it is a dominant view today, in the West at least.
00:05:24.960
It's the perspective that there's going to be a rapture of believers, and the unbelievers
00:05:32.120
And then there's seven years of tribulation, and then followed by the return of Christ to
00:05:38.300
bring his kingdom for a thousand literal years.
00:05:40.920
And then there's another resurrection after that.
00:05:45.820
And so when I began to really study and grow, I went to Bible college, and the perspective
00:05:51.160
I was taught in Bible college was dispensational premillennialism.
00:05:57.080
I remember even the eschatology classes, because it was my favorite subject.
00:06:01.460
And with eschatology, I mean, I really was kind of nutty with it.
00:06:07.500
I remember the waving of the hand at the other perspectives.
00:06:15.000
And there's other perspectives in history, like amillennialism and postmillennialism.
00:06:19.780
But my professor, I distinctly remember saying, but that's just theological liberalism, and
00:06:28.740
And so I was the kind of person that would literally go to Borders Books and Music, which
00:06:36.300
Their demise was even pre-COVID, so that's interesting.
00:06:39.740
I went to Borders Books and Music, because every week they would get, like, the newspapers
00:06:45.460
And I would go to pick up a copy of the Jerusalem Post, because I wanted to see what was happening
00:06:49.360
in Jerusalem and how close we were to the rapture.
00:06:59.700
I believe that it was every Sunday night—I forget what it was—just to listen to Hal
00:07:04.520
Lindsey's—his weekly report about what's happening in the world and how close we are
00:07:10.320
And so that was my initial understanding and growth in this area of eschatology was, this
00:07:24.300
And I used to believe that we were so close to the rapture, we wouldn't have even made
00:07:32.180
And I was just excited and could not wait to be raptured and taken away and leave all
00:07:42.640
I don't know if you want to hear yet of how I came to the perspective I am now.
00:07:46.260
Well, I do want to clarify some things, because there's probably a lot of people who are listening
00:07:51.980
And maybe they didn't even know it was called dispensationalist, but I was raised in a Southern
00:07:58.020
My husband was raised in a Southern Baptist home, and we were both taught the same things
00:08:02.600
without really too much emphasis on the details of it.
00:08:06.020
It was just so accepted and so widely accepted that I don't think I even knew, like you said,
00:08:13.780
So if you could kind of go into a little bit more detail of the biblical support that is
00:08:20.280
typically cited for that view, and then I guess that would segue you into why you or
00:08:26.520
how you figured out biblically that it was not the view that you believe to be true.
00:08:35.560
So one of the things that I remember as a distinct aspect of learning that perspective was that
00:08:44.680
it was perspective via a proof text here or there.
00:08:51.060
Let's just use the Left Behind series as an example, because that's the popular terminology,
00:08:56.000
and that's what people sort of are, that's the expectation that unbelievers are going
00:09:01.060
If you look on YouTube right now, you'll even see people, so this is like a big ticket item.
00:09:04.680
You'll see people making videos to loved ones and friends.
00:09:07.840
Hey, in case I'm not here and I disappear, just know that I have a box of Bibles in my
00:09:12.080
garage for you and some instructions on how you can be saved during the tribulation.
00:09:17.820
And so the assumption is there'll be people left behind.
00:09:20.180
So you'll have texts people will refer to, and this was even done during the promotional
00:09:28.520
There was a man in a field, and he's looking up, and it says, you know, Left Behind.
00:09:38.280
And so when you think about sort of like a popular proof text that gets people to that
00:09:43.580
perspective of like believers being raptured away, whoops, and unbelievers being left behind,
00:09:53.420
Well, I'll just give you a quick burst of the verses there so I can do it accurately.
00:09:58.960
In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about the temple being taken apart, one stone upon another.
00:10:05.400
You have all the dramatic statements about stars falling from heaven.
00:10:09.540
I mean, it's a pretty powerful indictment, of course, but also a pretty powerful section
00:10:14.420
of scripture that sounds scary to a lot of people.
00:10:16.220
Wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, all that stuff.
00:10:21.600
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
00:10:30.860
Concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,
00:10:36.500
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
00:10:39.640
As in those days people were either eating and drinking.
00:10:44.760
And then he says this, he says, then two will be in the field, one will be taken, one left.
00:10:50.620
Two women will be in the grinding, at the grinding of the mill, one will be taken, one left.
00:10:54.460
Therefore, stay awake for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
00:10:58.620
So the idea there in that perspective, in terms of a thematic theme and being left behind
00:11:03.160
and unbelievers being left behind, is a text like Matthew 24.
00:11:07.240
You know, two people are there, one's left and one's taken away.
00:11:12.020
Believers are taken away, unbelievers will be left.
00:11:19.120
And so I'll just, we could do a host of other verses, but that's the way that I was given
00:11:23.940
this perspective is by way of, here's the understanding, believers are going to be taken away.
00:11:30.340
Here's a verse that there's people in the field, one's taken, one's left.
00:11:33.520
And so the assumption there is the believers are taken and the unbelievers are left.
00:11:37.480
And so just by way of getting into sort of how my perspective was challenged, I came
00:11:43.400
to a point where I was, well, I'll just tell you on a very personal level, I believe this
00:11:54.440
I was in a coffee shop once with a bunch of friends and I started talking with them.
00:11:59.860
And I was talking about the book of Revelation.
00:12:01.440
And I remember that as I was talking about the book of Revelation, I felt extremely grieved.
00:12:07.660
I felt grieved, like I was saying something wrong, which was really strange because I love
00:12:12.980
And so I remember I went home and it felt like I was, I had done something wrong.
00:12:17.680
And so I'm just in deep prayer, like what, what happened?
00:12:23.880
And so I realized that I was talking about end time stuff and revelation while this was happening.
00:12:28.920
And so I just sort of started to feel challenged, like, well, did I say something wrong?
00:12:34.100
And so what I did is I committed to reading the book of Revelation once a day, every single
00:12:39.500
By day four, reading through the book of Revelation, I remember I was sitting in a coffee shop
00:12:45.340
I remember I closed my Bible and I thought to myself, I have to be wrong.
00:12:50.020
I'm seeing things in the book of Revelation even, which is a highly complex book, very symbolic,
00:12:56.840
But I remember I was seeing things that I thought that has to have already happened.
00:13:01.500
There's no way that could be future to us if I'm, if I'm reading this biblically.
00:13:05.720
And so then I started to feel challenged, like, well, wait a second, how is that possible?
00:13:09.580
So I started reading the great tribulation passages.
00:13:12.100
That's the, in the synoptics, Mark 13, Luke 21, Matthew 24, parallel passages there.
00:13:18.460
And I started reading through the great tribulation or all of the discourse passages and
00:13:23.160
sort of thinking, well, that had to happen in the first century.
00:13:32.460
And you're saying, sorry, just to clarify, the reason that you're saying it had to have
00:13:36.320
already happened or else Jesus is a false prophet because of what he says this generation will
00:13:40.600
not pass away before they see, they see these things happening.
00:13:44.940
Yeah, contextually reading that what Jesus was doing there is he's, he's not talking to
00:13:51.900
That's one of the things that challenged me is I'm, I keep trying to find myself in the
00:13:56.120
text or us in the text, but realizing the contextually Jesus is talking to first century
00:14:03.400
He's indicting them for their covenant on faithfulness.
00:14:06.380
He's promising them very serious judgment that they're going to be, their house is going to
00:14:11.800
And then he goes on to tell them that the temple is going to be destroyed and not one
00:14:17.540
Now, contextually, I was saying, well, that's talking to them.
00:14:21.180
And then he's telling them what their, the disciples are to expect before this coming
00:14:26.420
And then, of course, you have that text in 34 of Matthew 24.
00:14:30.580
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
00:14:34.260
That take, that, that verse is after, after everything he said about stars falling from heaven,
00:14:45.060
And every time this generation is used in the gospels, it's referring to the generation
00:14:55.080
It's something that's used throughout the gospels.
00:14:57.940
And so, and this was the challenge as I'm reading through the text and just saying, let
00:15:03.680
Like, I'm starting to see things that make me feel a bit awkward.
00:15:08.760
But mind you, I've been in a biblical, I've been in a church context where I'm taught
00:15:14.640
These are the views of just theological liberalism and all the rest.
00:15:18.040
But I had remembered, Allie, that about a year before I was at Borders, spent a lot of time
00:15:24.840
And I had seen, there was a book by R.C. Sproul called The Last Days According to Jesus.
00:15:32.220
But I remember I was like, ooh, eschatology by R.C. Sproul.
00:15:35.600
And so I picked the book up and I'm telling you, I remember that I opened it and it's,
00:15:42.160
My mindset was already in just one category that I'm reading Sproul and I'm going, what?
00:15:51.240
And I remember I put it back on the shelf and I thought to myself, well, every, everybody's
00:15:55.340
got something weird about their theology, I guess.
00:15:58.300
But as I'm in this place where I'm starting to go, no, this had to have already happened.
00:16:06.840
So I literally went to borders, like immediately, beeline, and the book was still there, interestingly.
00:16:14.900
And as I'm reading through Dr. R.C. Sproul talking about these texts, the Olivet Discourse
00:16:19.100
and everything else, I realize, oh, my perspective is something that's new in history.
00:16:27.220
And oh, and some of the giants of the faith and church fathers throughout history held to
00:16:32.600
And even early Christian pastors and apologists were using Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse
00:16:41.740
And that demonstrates that Jesus was the Messiah.
00:16:44.240
And so as I'm reading this, I'm starting to get challenged.
00:16:46.020
So this circles me back, Allie, to we talk about some texts that would sort of be used for
00:16:53.580
There is a difference, by the way, between dispensational premillennialism and just straight
00:17:03.560
And I'd like to hang on that, at least to focus in upon, this is a major theme, this
00:17:07.980
is a movie, this is a book series, this is sort of what everyone adopts.
00:17:13.500
Because in Matthew 24, if you let the text speak, if you just read it and let the text
00:17:18.260
speak and don't come to it with a system in place to try to read into the text, Jesus
00:17:26.060
But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the
00:17:31.800
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
00:17:35.500
For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving
00:17:39.640
in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood
00:17:49.040
Well, as you read the text, you think about where Jesus is pointing us.
00:17:52.220
He's pointing us, of course, in this passage to judgment upon that generation.
00:17:58.040
Now, I had to think about this as I let the text speak.
00:18:13.460
It was Noah and his sons and daughters-in-law and his wife.
00:18:17.280
And so it was the righteous who were left behind, and the unbelievers were swept away.
00:18:21.220
And Jesus uses there, and the next verse is he says,
00:18:25.560
Then two will be in the field, one will be taken and one left.
00:18:28.200
Two women will be at the grinding of the mill, and one will be taken, one left.
00:18:35.120
And in Noah's day, the ones who were left were the righteous, and the ones taken away
00:18:39.280
So it was a huge challenge to me to realize I have literally, for all of these years,
00:18:45.980
read this passage so many times, and I have not seen what's right in front of my face.
00:18:52.000
Because I was taught a system, a framework, and I'm reading the text, not drawing out of
00:19:00.560
But I'm going to the text with an assumption about what Jesus means, and I'm reading that
00:19:05.300
assumption into the text, and so I can only see my system and my assumption, rather than
00:19:13.920
How did Jesus, what did Jesus point us to as a reference point?
00:19:17.300
And it's Noah, and his family was spared, and his family was left behind, and it's the
00:19:23.260
The people who were left that day were the meek, the righteous.
00:19:26.440
They inherited the earth, the land, not the unbelievers.
00:19:30.180
So that was sort of a jaw-dropping moment for me, theologically speaking, and it was
00:19:36.180
challenging to me, Alan, because I realized at that point, we have to be so cautious.
00:19:41.660
I've got to be so cautious to understand, I can have good Bible teachers, respect these
00:19:46.940
I have to hold up the standard that we say we hold to, and that's that Scripture's the
00:19:54.560
Hold fast to that, which is true, and so even if you have a great Bible teacher that's
00:19:58.060
a great, godly man of God, or you have a great, you know, woman who's mentoring you,
00:20:02.940
she's teaching you all these things, and you've just sort of been fed this, we still need to
00:20:06.040
be holding to the standard of Scripture's the standard, and in the case of eschatology,
00:20:11.400
that's what I ran right into, was, wow, I've been reading all these texts with this preconceived
00:20:21.560
system, and I'm only saying the system, and I'm using these things as proof texts, and
00:20:27.480
so that's a big-ticket item, and so there was also the other issue of the kingdom, and
00:20:33.540
I'm sure we're going to get into that, because that's sort of the overarching issue of
00:20:38.540
I always thought that the kingdom of Christ was coming later, and it was a literal thousand-year
00:20:45.040
reign of Christ on this physical earth, and that's later.
00:20:48.540
And then when I began to really discover that Jesus taught that his kingdom had actually
00:20:53.420
arrived, and so did the apostles, and that was actually the promise in terms of the Old
00:20:57.920
Testament, I was challenged once again on my perspective.
00:21:02.340
Okay, so let me make some distinctions here for maybe people who are new to eschatological
00:21:08.740
The dispensationalists, so the pre-tribulation, pre-millennialist people who read Matthew 24
00:21:19.240
to say, like John MacArthur, for example, would believe this, that we are going to be raptured,
00:21:26.600
The people who are left behind are the unrighteous, the unbelievers, and then it's going to go through
00:21:32.020
During that time, people will come to know Christ, and then Christ will come back, and then the
00:21:43.920
It makes these conversations even more complicated and difficult.
00:21:47.200
But you believe, as you just explained, that that passage of being left behind is not talking
00:21:53.440
about the unrighteous being left behind, but the righteous actually being left behind.
00:21:57.780
In those days of tribulation that are described in Matthew 24, you are asserting that Jesus is
00:22:02.960
actually talking about something that already happened in 70 AD, correct, whereas dispensationalists
00:22:11.020
That is why, for example, when you were a dispensationalist, you were looking at the
00:22:14.780
Jerusalem Post and saying, okay, when are all of these signs going to happen?
00:22:19.660
That's what dispensationalists are still doing today, because they're waiting for the events
00:22:26.400
of Matthew 24 and other places to happen to see when the rapture is going to happen, when
00:22:32.440
the righteous will go up and the unrighteous will be left behind for the tribulation.
00:22:40.500
So just in terms of dispensationalism, just to be fair to our dispensational brethren,
00:22:46.100
dispensationalism, there's different perspectives today.
00:22:49.260
There's more of a classical dispensational perspective versus modern views.
00:22:54.460
The perspective itself, dispensational premillennialism didn't exist before the 19th century.
00:22:59.480
It was popularized in the West by the Schofield Reference Bible.
00:23:04.720
Some modern dispensationalists would repudiate some of those things from classic dispensationalism
00:23:11.020
And then even within dispensational premillennialism and the idea of the Great Tribulation as future
00:23:16.880
to us, you have people who are pre-wrath rapture, mid-rapture, and then you have post-tribulation
00:23:25.800
So you have all kinds of things out today arguing.
00:23:28.520
People are very popular today to argue for a post-tribulation rapture.
00:23:32.660
In other words, the believers are going to have to go through the tribulation and then
00:23:36.940
And so there's even distinctions in that camp between them.
00:23:40.700
But yes, the popular view we're talking about sees the Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation
00:23:51.440
I would say, have you ever seen something bad happening in the world?
00:23:55.020
And then either your pastor or your Bible teacher or friends quoted the passage, wars
00:24:00.220
and rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.
00:24:05.960
Now, I'm of the perspective of, say, an early pastor, apologist, and bishop named Eusebius.
00:24:14.800
He wrote in one of his works, an apologetic, that this passage actually demonstrates that
00:24:22.300
Jesus was the Messiah because it already happened.
00:24:25.720
And he uses as a point of reference the fact that early Christians were warned by the Lord
00:24:31.220
Jesus in this prophecy to flee the city when they saw it surrounded.
00:24:39.920
We know as a matter of record that early Christians did read this prophecy as referring
00:24:46.540
And they took the warning of the Lord Jesus, where he says, when you see the abomination
00:24:51.520
that causes desolation, I said, let the reader understand, then flee.
00:24:55.840
You know, so you can, by the way, it's interesting.
00:24:58.180
Jesus teaches his people they can actually escape this tribulation by just simply leaving
00:25:04.220
I never thought about it like that, because I always thought about it as, yes, he tells us
00:25:09.420
But he also says it's going to be really bad in those days, even for the people that
00:25:13.820
flee, you know, woe to the women who are pregnant and nursing during that time.
00:25:19.160
I mean, I am also reading it as a future event as a premillennialist, but thinking, and also
00:25:26.900
And so thinking, oh, I'm going to go through that time.
00:25:29.080
And I've talked to a lot of women that are like, should I get pregnant right now?
00:25:32.600
I mean, Jesus is saying this is going to be a really bad time for me.
00:25:35.600
And so, yeah, I would say that a lot of people are reading it that way.
00:25:42.360
I'm really glad you brought, you used that specific example of, and this is an example
00:25:48.960
I would say, I understand, but we as believers have to go to the text and let the text speak.
00:25:56.400
And I've realized that more and more the more I think about it.
00:25:59.260
And you brought up the premier example of how it impacts you is, think about that, a believing
00:26:04.220
woman in a marriage, like a husband and wife struggling, like, should we have kids right
00:26:11.500
It says, woe to those who are pregnant or nursing in those days.
00:26:13.880
It's like, well, I think that's right around the corner.
00:26:19.000
Because actually the warning there that Jesus is giving is he's warning them about the intensity
00:26:25.480
of this judgment that's coming and, you know, pregnant or nursing in those days and pray
00:26:34.120
You have all these different discussions, you know, and then don't even go into the house
00:26:38.340
Now, the best thing to do here is to say, OK, what's Jesus saying there?
00:26:52.520
He's talking to them and what they're going to see.
00:26:55.040
But then he tells them, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
00:26:57.900
So the reference point here is, OK, so when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that's
00:27:02.300
Luke, by the way, gives the Gentile interpretation, I think, of Matthew, where Matthew says, when
00:27:06.260
you see the abomination that causes desolation, flee.
00:27:09.600
Luke says, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, flee.
00:27:12.960
Well, again, Eusebius, an early Christian church father and pastor, bishop, when he's referring
00:27:18.660
to this event, he uses it as an apologetic to show that Jesus was, in fact, who he claimed
00:27:23.620
to be, because he says that early Christians, they read that passage and they obeyed it
00:27:29.080
and they escaped the judgment of Jerusalem and they fled to a town called Pella.
00:27:35.780
Christians escaped the judgment on Jerusalem by listening to the words of Jesus in Matthew
00:27:40.280
So isn't it interesting that we have early Christians actually reading Matthew 24 in the
00:27:44.320
Olivet Discourse saying, we've got to obey that, that's us.
00:27:48.160
And then in the 21st century, we have Christians in the West saying, well, maybe I shouldn't
00:27:57.780
It will have a dramatic impact on you because, and I'll just, I'll say this last thing and
00:28:01.600
But, you know, if, if you, if you see this as future to us, if you say things like, what's
00:28:10.120
the point of polishing brass on a sinking ship and why bother rearranging furniture on
00:28:15.300
the Titanic, the world's just going to hell in a handbasket.
00:28:26.640
Not just in the area of not having kids and not getting pregnant and all those things,
00:28:30.080
but you'll live that way in terms of when the world is falling apart around you, you
00:28:37.720
And that is the kind of person that's seeing the world collapse around you when I was in
00:28:43.500
And my response was, oh, just get me out of here.
00:28:49.000
I can't wait to just abandon this all behind me.
00:28:51.180
I just can't wait for you to take me out of this.
00:28:55.120
Whereas I think if you have the perspective of Christ ruling and reigning now, putting
00:29:00.000
his enemies under his feet until there's final victory and then death is destroyed,
00:29:04.320
you take seriously things like you're the salt, you're the light, and you're going to
00:29:14.440
You know, he shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth.
00:29:20.900
You know, you'll say, you know, my job is to sit here and to be the bride of Christ and
00:29:26.080
to fight, to be his help meat as he brings his rule and his kingdom around the world
00:29:30.520
and establishes salvation and justice and righteousness around the world.
00:29:34.960
And I just want to say, that's why end abortion now.
00:29:38.660
And people are like, you know, what drives that?
00:29:44.120
But what drives our perspective of hope in that is that I know that Jesus is going to win.
00:29:48.580
And so I'm just a part of the means of that process.
00:29:54.880
Like we're about to put a bill in this year in Arizona that, Lord willing, it all works
00:30:01.320
We have legislators who are going to be criminalizing abortion in Arizona.
00:30:06.880
And all that comes if somebody says, where's that come from?
00:30:13.960
So I think that premillennialists would say, I mean, a lot of people who listen to this,
00:30:19.760
they really respect you, and they also respect someone like John MacArthur, and they know
00:30:23.840
that both of you take the Bible so seriously, and both of you are obedient.
00:30:29.700
And we just saw, for example, John MacArthur say, you know what?
00:30:32.400
Christ is the head of the church, not Gavin Newsom, and we are going to stand up and be
00:30:37.480
Obviously, his obedience, and even in the ministries that his church has that fights against abortion
00:30:42.940
in a variety of ways, they're not motivated by postmillennialism the way you are, but
00:30:47.700
they are motivated and compelled by the love of Christ to be obedient.
00:30:51.320
And their thought is, yes, that Jesus is going to come back and rule in perfect peace and
00:30:55.420
justice, but until then, the world is going to get worse and worse.
00:30:59.020
But I think the premillennialists would argue that we are still motivated for obedience,
00:31:03.580
even when it seems like the darkness is closing in all around us, because Jesus calls us to
00:31:09.140
I think, like, you would read something like 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 7 that says, but
00:31:13.740
understand this, that in the last days there will be, there will come times of difficulty
00:31:17.140
for people will be lovers of self, you know, the whole passage.
00:31:20.900
And so we read that to think, okay, the world is going to get worse and worse.
00:31:24.040
That doesn't change our responsibility to be salt and light.
00:31:28.920
We cling to the hope, and we push forward for the hope that Jesus will come back and reign
00:31:34.520
But the premillennialist doesn't necessarily see that, you know, God's law manifesting
00:31:40.720
itself better and better until Jesus comes back.
00:31:48.060
It's important to say that a brother like John MacArthur, he's a faithful, faithful man
00:31:55.660
of God, much, much better than, much better than me I'll ever be.
00:31:58.580
And I'm grateful for all that he has done and all that he did this this past weekend
00:32:02.700
in confronting the tyranny of the state of California.
00:32:06.960
And yes, the answer is faithful men of God who hold to that perspective, want to honor
00:32:12.700
God, want to honor his word, are trying to rightly divide the truth.
00:32:16.100
But we have to understand that there are faithful Christians throughout history who have disagreed.
00:32:19.940
So the big question is, okay, what does the text actually say?
00:32:22.240
Because you obviously have faithful men and women of God on both sides of the issue.
00:32:27.360
In the end, what I always appreciate about my brothers who hold to a perspective of a
00:32:32.320
rapture and a tribulation and, you know, all of that as future to us, I really respect
00:32:37.440
the ones who say, however, our duty is to be faithful while we're here and to fight.
00:32:44.340
The one thing I would say to that is that that's faithfulness, even with a perspective
00:32:49.980
that I would say I don't think is completely true.
00:32:51.900
But what happens in the pews, though, when we tell people it's just going to get worse
00:32:56.980
and worse and worse, and we're just going to get raptured out of here, like, you know,
00:33:01.760
What tends to happen in the pews is that people sort of live accordingly.
00:33:06.500
Because as things bat around us, the major theme is, well, it's just going to get worse.
00:33:13.020
It's sort of like my friend has said it this way.
00:33:15.340
Imagine being on a field, playing a game, you know, of intense football or soccer or
00:33:23.920
And, you know, the coaches at the sidelines, he says, all right, guys, we're going to go
00:33:28.880
But I absolutely guarantee you're going to lose.
00:33:36.540
Go like you'd be like, well, it's not a real motivator, practically speaking, to say
00:33:48.740
But I would kind of push back on that metaphor and say, but if you told the team, look, it's
00:33:52.980
going to look like you're about to lose and it's going to look really hard and it's going
00:33:56.380
to look like all the odds are stacked against you.
00:33:58.540
But in the end, you are going to be victorious.
00:34:02.520
And that would be motivating to push through the difficulty that you're up against, because
00:34:08.520
you know that even if it looks like you're going to lose, you know that you're going
00:34:14.400
And that would be what the premillennialist would say would motivate us, is that ending
00:34:19.600
glory that we are going to take part in one day.
00:34:22.920
Not something that we'll see on earth, but when Christ comes back.
00:34:27.940
So that brings us, Allie, to the most important elements.
00:34:35.580
Does, let's say, let's make it simple so that we don't overcomplicate things, because
00:34:42.000
they can get, eschatology can get so complicated.
00:34:48.480
We're talking about like 66 different books and letters for over 2,000 years.
00:34:58.060
And we have to just confess, this is a complicated subject.
00:35:00.780
So what I like to do, and you landed on just the right spot.
00:35:04.200
And it's the question of like, in terms of like practical, we talk about praxis.
00:35:11.980
And it's, I think, a good passage to go to, like 1 Corinthians 15.
00:35:16.060
That's where the Apostle Paul gives an inspired timeline of history.
00:35:21.760
And it does, in that timeline, I truly believe if we just sit down with the text speak, and
00:35:26.300
we just do it as a timeline, and ask the question, okay, which belief matches this timeline that
00:35:35.860
And so the question is like, okay, is it going to get worse and worse and worse?
00:35:38.980
And we're going to get beat up and beat up and beat up.
00:35:40.400
And finally, Jesus returns for the resurrection to a world that is hostile to God and at enmity
00:35:52.400
We have to be fair to historic premillennialists or of whatever stripe.
00:35:58.420
We have to be fair and say, we all believe as Christians, historically, in the final resurrection
00:36:04.620
of the just and the unjust and the ultimate victory of Jesus.
00:36:08.140
The question is, what happens in this space before that resurrection we all agree with?
00:36:15.340
Even if it gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse, and we're just
00:36:18.340
beat up, and it hurts, and it's painful, Jesus is coming back in victory, and then there is
00:36:22.640
a final victory, and the church wins anyways, because our Savior returns as king, and there's
00:36:30.100
The other perspective is to say, Jesus brought that kingdom, and it started as a seed, mustard
00:36:40.860
It's like leaven in a lump of dough that fills the entirety of the loaf.
00:36:45.280
It's like a stone, Daniel says, cut out of a mountain that destroys the kingdoms, and
00:36:49.400
then it rolls and becomes a mountain that fills the entire earth.
00:36:53.200
That's the other perspective in terms of the kingdom is entered, and the goal is actually
00:36:57.100
upward motion of salvation and peace and justice in the earth.
00:37:01.000
Well, I think Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, he says this.
00:37:15.280
So from the inspired apostle's perspective, Jesus is reigning now.
00:37:21.100
That's a very big deal to say that, because they were expecting the reign of the Messiah.
00:37:25.740
So for Paul to say, and he must reign, and he's reigning now, seated.
00:37:30.740
By the way, that's seated on the Davidic throne, the Messianic throne.
00:37:37.780
He said, and he must reign until, and then he quotes the most popular verse from the Old Testament
00:37:47.320
It's used the most, alluded to, quoted in the New Testament.
00:37:52.000
I've often said, and my friend said this, I borrowed from him.
00:37:55.440
It appears to be God's favorite Bible verse, because it's used the most in the New Testament.
00:37:59.100
He must reign until he has placed all of his enemies under his feet as a footstool for his feet.
00:38:05.300
And then he says, and then the last enemy to be defeated is death.
00:38:10.540
So Paul says, in a timeline of history, Jesus is reigning now, and he's placing all of his enemies under his feet.
00:38:17.420
And after they're all under his feet, then he'll destroy death.
00:38:21.200
And then it says, interestingly, and then he delivers the kingdom over to the Father.
00:38:26.680
So from the inspired apostle's perspective, when the Lord returns for the resurrection,
00:38:32.800
he'll destroy death after all of his other enemies are already under his feet.
00:38:39.620
It says that he then delivers the rule, here, Father, here.
00:38:45.980
So that's the timeline of history that the apostle gives.
00:38:51.880
Does it get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and then final victory?
00:38:55.260
Or is it a progressive victory of enemies under the feet to then final victory in climax?
00:39:00.560
And then the kingdom is not brought at that point.
00:39:07.500
I think that is a simplified timeline from the inspired apostle in terms of like,
00:39:17.840
And it does mark the distinction between the two perspectives.
00:39:20.720
Ultimately, I think it's been said before, there really are, if you simplify it, two perspectives in eschatology.
00:39:28.560
There's pessimillennialism or optimillennialism.
00:39:32.400
The idea that we have a pessimistic perspective in terms of like, what's the course of human history?
00:39:41.160
Or optimillennialism, in other words, what's the perspective of human history before the resurrection?
00:39:54.340
So I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.
00:39:57.080
I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.
00:40:08.480
I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.