Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 283 ｜ Are We in the End Times？ Part 1： How We Interpret Revelation Matters ｜ Guest： Jeff Durbin

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:11.820 So I have an awesome conversation with you today.

00:00:14.640 It is a very full, theologically rich conversation.

00:00:18.680 I'm going to be talking to apologist and pastor Jeff Durbin about the end times.

00:00:24.460 We have two different perspectives on the end times.

00:00:26.840 And if you just need a primer for what post-millennialist means or pre-millennialist means or post-trib,

00:00:33.220 pre-trib, dispensationalist, if you are not sure about those end times words and all of

00:00:40.220 that vocabulary, you can go back and you can listen to an episode I did a while ago called

00:00:44.900 The End Times where I tried to break that down.

00:00:48.080 It was from about a year ago.

00:00:49.980 So you can go back and listen to or watch that.

00:00:52.360 GotQuestions.org is also a good website that kind of can tell you the different terms

00:00:58.940 and what they actually mean.

00:01:01.600 I will say the site isn't without its own bias and perspective.

00:01:05.260 And so just make sure that you are weighing everything against the Word of God, especially

00:01:09.160 when and after you listen to this conversation.

00:01:12.220 I also recommend Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology.

00:01:15.320 He goes through each position, each eschatological position.

00:01:19.740 And so that would be a great primer for this episode.

00:01:23.060 But of course, if you are someone who kind of already understands the end times and you've

00:01:26.120 got your own perspective, this is going to be extremely enriching, hopefully challenging

00:01:30.200 for you and gets you to think a little bit about what you believe about the end times.

00:01:34.640 Such an important conversation because as you will see, as I talk to Jeff, this really does

00:01:39.600 shape not just how you think, but the way that you live your life.

00:01:44.460 So without further ado, here is Jeff Durbin.

00:01:48.120 Jeff, thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:50.500 It's absolutely my pleasure.

00:01:51.960 So you have already been on my podcast before.

00:01:54.500 Most people who are listening to this probably know who you are and listen to you as well.

00:01:59.000 But just in case, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:02:03.460 Sure.

00:02:03.980 I'm a pastor at Apologia Church and host of Apologia Radio.

00:02:09.160 We have here is Apologia Studios.

00:02:11.480 I have been a pastor for a very, very long time.

00:02:15.600 I started Apologia Church when I was the chaplain at a drug rehab.

00:02:19.700 I was a pastor at another church in Phoenix, and I was also a full-time chaplain at a hospital,

00:02:25.240 a drug rehab.

00:02:25.920 And this church came out of that drug rehab.

00:02:29.140 So many people came to Christ out of addiction.

00:02:32.260 They needed to be cared for.

00:02:33.640 So the church I was at sent me.

00:02:35.600 And here we are, years later.

00:02:38.400 We have a lot of ministries.

00:02:39.640 We do a lot of outreach to the cults.

00:02:41.140 We do public debates.

00:02:43.540 We do a lot of ministry in the area of abortion.

00:02:48.340 And so End Abortion Now is one ministry of Apologia Church.

00:02:51.440 And we've raised up over 500 churches, mostly across the United States, but also globally,

00:02:56.480 who go to the abortion mills.

00:02:58.220 And at this point, there's been thousands and thousands of children saved.

00:03:02.220 And that particular ministry has two aspects to it.

00:03:05.400 One is saving lives at the abortion mill.

00:03:07.520 The other is actually working to speak prophetically to legislators to work towards the ultimate

00:03:14.140 end, abolition, criminalization of abortion.

00:03:17.180 So we have a lot going on.

00:03:18.900 Awesome.

00:03:19.220 Yes, you do.

00:03:19.800 And we can talk about any number of those topics for the entirety of our conversation.

00:03:24.380 Today, we are going to talk about one topic that I love to listen to you on, even though

00:03:28.440 I, for now, have a different perspective.

00:03:31.080 And that is eschatology.

00:03:32.480 You are a post-millennialist, but you used to be a pre-millennialist, correct?

00:03:38.720 And you have graduated to this.

00:03:41.240 And so first, I just want to hear how you kind of took that theological and eschatological

00:03:46.360 journey.

00:03:47.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:49.180 So I wasn't raised in a Christian home and so had really no understanding of the Bible.

00:03:53.840 I had heard basic things.

00:03:55.660 And I saw a movie about Jesus as a kid and so knew there was a person named Jesus who

00:04:00.040 died on a cross and people claimed he rose again from the dead.

00:04:03.560 There was a Bible in my parents' stereo system wherever we went in the world.

00:04:07.600 I'm an Air Force brat, so we're always traveling.

00:04:10.820 And that Bible just sort of sat there collecting dust.

00:04:12.800 So I mean, that's about my understanding of Christianity.

00:04:16.100 And then hearing the gospel, having a profession of faith in Jesus, my—so I hadn't gone to

00:04:22.140 church, so I didn't grow up in church, wasn't going to listen to sermons, I mean, really

00:04:27.920 nothing.

00:04:28.820 And so my first Bible study that I went to, I vividly remember it, actually.

00:04:34.380 I go—it was at a house.

00:04:35.700 And so I go to this house, and it was a youth group.

00:04:37.840 And I walk in, and I was a little bit late.

00:04:41.420 So when I walked in, it was already happening.

00:04:43.560 They were in the living room, and they were watching a movie.

00:04:45.780 So the Bible study was a movie.

00:04:48.240 And it was an awful, typically awful Christian film that was on the tribulation. 1.00

00:04:54.860 I can't remember that.

00:04:55.900 Maybe it was Thief in the Night or something like that.

00:04:57.420 It was—all I remember is that it scared me.

00:05:00.280 And, of course, it was very low-budget and a terrible movie.

00:05:03.780 But my—so my very first Bible study was on eschatology.

00:05:08.760 And the perspective that I was given was dispensational premillennialism.

00:05:13.780 It's the popular idea.

00:05:15.800 It's—in history, it's a theological novum.

00:05:18.860 It's something that's new.

00:05:19.880 It didn't exist before the 19th century.

00:05:21.460 But it is a dominant view today, in the West at least.

00:05:24.960 It's the perspective that there's going to be a rapture of believers, and the unbelievers 1.00

00:05:30.860 are left behind.

00:05:32.120 And then there's seven years of tribulation, and then followed by the return of Christ to

00:05:38.300 bring his kingdom for a thousand literal years.

00:05:40.920 And then there's another resurrection after that.

00:05:44.200 But that was the perspective.

00:05:45.820 And so when I began to really study and grow, I went to Bible college, and the perspective

00:05:51.160 I was taught in Bible college was dispensational premillennialism.

00:05:54.800 There was really a waving of the hand.

00:05:57.080 I remember even the eschatology classes, because it was my favorite subject.

00:06:00.640 I was a fiend.

00:06:01.460 And with eschatology, I mean, I really was kind of nutty with it.

00:06:05.380 It's really all I like to talk about.

00:06:07.500 I remember the waving of the hand at the other perspectives.

00:06:10.200 It was, well, this is the perspective.

00:06:12.220 Here's the charts.

00:06:13.060 Here's the proof text.

00:06:15.000 And there's other perspectives in history, like amillennialism and postmillennialism.

00:06:19.780 But my professor, I distinctly remember saying, but that's just theological liberalism, and

00:06:24.900 it's just—it's not biblical.

00:06:26.100 So onward.

00:06:27.220 And so that's what I understood.

00:06:28.740 And so I was the kind of person that would literally go to Borders Books and Music, which

00:06:33.880 doesn't exist anymore, sadly.

00:06:36.300 Their demise was even pre-COVID, so that's interesting.

00:06:39.560 Yeah.

00:06:39.740 I went to Borders Books and Music, because every week they would get, like, the newspapers

00:06:44.200 from around the world.

00:06:45.460 And I would go to pick up a copy of the Jerusalem Post, because I wanted to see what was happening

00:06:49.360 in Jerusalem and how close we were to the rapture.

00:06:52.500 I was a huge fan of Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye.

00:06:56.240 Those were my homeboys.

00:06:57.960 I used to make sure that I was home.

00:06:59.700 I believe that it was every Sunday night—I forget what it was—just to listen to Hal

00:07:04.520 Lindsey's—his weekly report about what's happening in the world and how close we are

00:07:09.020 to the rapture.

00:07:10.320 And so that was my initial understanding and growth in this area of eschatology was, this

00:07:17.840 is the truth.

00:07:18.480 This is what Christians have always believed. 0.84

00:07:20.420 And this is the biblical position.

00:07:22.440 And that's all I read.

00:07:23.640 That's all I understood.

00:07:24.300 And I used to believe that we were so close to the rapture, we wouldn't have even made

00:07:29.640 it until the year 2000.

00:07:32.180 And I was just excited and could not wait to be raptured and taken away and leave all

00:07:37.700 this behind.

00:07:38.700 And that was my perspective.

00:07:40.780 So that's where I came from.

00:07:42.640 I don't know if you want to hear yet of how I came to the perspective I am now.

00:07:46.260 Well, I do want to clarify some things, because there's probably a lot of people who are listening

00:07:50.120 who hold that dispensationalist view.

00:07:51.980 And maybe they didn't even know it was called dispensationalist, but I was raised in a Southern

00:07:56.540 Baptist home.

00:07:58.020 My husband was raised in a Southern Baptist home, and we were both taught the same things

00:08:02.600 without really too much emphasis on the details of it.

00:08:06.020 It was just so accepted and so widely accepted that I don't think I even knew, like you said,

00:08:10.860 that there were even any other views on it.

00:08:13.780 So if you could kind of go into a little bit more detail of the biblical support that is

00:08:20.280 typically cited for that view, and then I guess that would segue you into why you or

00:08:26.520 how you figured out biblically that it was not the view that you believe to be true.

00:08:31.960 Yeah, so yeah, absolutely.

00:08:35.560 So one of the things that I remember as a distinct aspect of learning that perspective was that

00:08:44.680 it was perspective via a proof text here or there.

00:08:48.400 So it was, you know, I'll give you an example.

00:08:51.060 Let's just use the Left Behind series as an example, because that's the popular terminology,

00:08:56.000 and that's what people sort of are, that's the expectation that unbelievers are going

00:08:59.780 to be left behind.

00:09:01.060 If you look on YouTube right now, you'll even see people, so this is like a big ticket item.

00:09:04.680 You'll see people making videos to loved ones and friends.

00:09:07.840 Hey, in case I'm not here and I disappear, just know that I have a box of Bibles in my

00:09:12.080 garage for you and some instructions on how you can be saved during the tribulation.

00:09:17.820 And so the assumption is there'll be people left behind.

00:09:20.180 So you'll have texts people will refer to, and this was even done during the promotional

00:09:25.220 aspects of the film Left Behind.

00:09:28.520 There was a man in a field, and he's looking up, and it says, you know, Left Behind.

00:09:35.600 So he's working in a field.

00:09:38.280 And so when you think about sort of like a popular proof text that gets people to that

00:09:43.580 perspective of like believers being raptured away, whoops, and unbelievers being left behind,

00:09:48.620 that would come from Matthew, say, 24.

00:09:50.960 And that's what the Lord Jesus talks about.

00:09:53.420 Well, I'll just give you a quick burst of the verses there so I can do it accurately.

00:09:58.960 In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about the temple being taken apart, one stone upon another.

00:10:05.400 You have all the dramatic statements about stars falling from heaven.

00:10:09.540 I mean, it's a pretty powerful indictment, of course, but also a pretty powerful section

00:10:14.420 of scripture that sounds scary to a lot of people.

00:10:16.220 Wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, all that stuff.

00:10:19.140 But then Jesus says in 24, 34,

00:10:21.600 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

00:10:26.340 Heaven and earth will pass away.

00:10:27.640 My words will by no means pass away.

00:10:30.500 It says,

00:10:30.860 Concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,

00:10:35.220 but the Father only.

00:10:36.500 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 0.97

00:10:39.640 As in those days people were either eating and drinking.

00:10:41.820 Jesus goes on to describe those circumstances.

00:10:44.760 And then he says this, he says, then two will be in the field, one will be taken, one left.

00:10:50.620 Two women will be in the grinding, at the grinding of the mill, one will be taken, one left. 1.00

00:10:54.460 Therefore, stay awake for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

00:10:58.620 So the idea there in that perspective, in terms of a thematic theme and being left behind

00:11:03.160 and unbelievers being left behind, is a text like Matthew 24.

00:11:07.240 You know, two people are there, one's left and one's taken away.

00:11:10.280 And so people say, okay, that's the believers.

00:11:12.020 Believers are taken away, unbelievers will be left. 1.00

00:11:14.000 And that's how I read that text.

00:11:16.900 And that was my understanding.

00:11:19.120 And so I'll just, we could do a host of other verses, but that's the way that I was given

00:11:23.940 this perspective is by way of, here's the understanding, believers are going to be taken away.

00:11:28.880 And look, here's a proof text.

00:11:30.340 Here's a verse that there's people in the field, one's taken, one's left.

00:11:33.520 And so the assumption there is the believers are taken and the unbelievers are left. 0.72

00:11:37.480 And so just by way of getting into sort of how my perspective was challenged, I came

00:11:43.400 to a point where I was, well, I'll just tell you on a very personal level, I believe this

00:11:49.860 position so strongly.

00:11:51.200 I was such a strong advocate for it.

00:11:52.800 It's what I love to talk about.

00:11:54.440 I was in a coffee shop once with a bunch of friends and I started talking with them.

00:11:58.840 We're just hanging out and talking.

00:11:59.860 And I was talking about the book of Revelation.

00:12:01.440 And I remember that as I was talking about the book of Revelation, I felt extremely grieved.

00:12:07.660 I felt grieved, like I was saying something wrong, which was really strange because I love

00:12:11.940 this topic.

00:12:12.980 And so I remember I went home and it felt like I was, I had done something wrong.

00:12:17.680 And so I'm just in deep prayer, like what, what happened?

00:12:20.020 Why am I feeling like I'm being convicted?

00:12:21.560 Like I was, you know, what's, what's going on?

00:12:23.880 And so I realized that I was talking about end time stuff and revelation while this was happening.

00:12:28.920 And so I just sort of started to feel challenged, like, well, did I say something wrong?

00:12:34.100 And so what I did is I committed to reading the book of Revelation once a day, every single

00:12:37.980 day for 30 days.

00:12:39.500 By day four, reading through the book of Revelation, I remember I was sitting in a coffee shop

00:12:44.180 reading through Revelation.

00:12:45.340 I remember I closed my Bible and I thought to myself, I have to be wrong.

00:12:50.020 I'm seeing things in the book of Revelation even, which is a highly complex book, very symbolic,

00:12:55.200 a lot of texts from the Old Testament.

00:12:56.840 But I remember I was seeing things that I thought that has to have already happened.

00:13:01.500 There's no way that could be future to us if I'm, if I'm reading this biblically.

00:13:05.720 And so then I started to feel challenged, like, well, wait a second, how is that possible?

00:13:09.580 So I started reading the great tribulation passages.

00:13:12.100 That's the, in the synoptics, Mark 13, Luke 21, Matthew 24, parallel passages there.

00:13:18.460 And I started reading through the great tribulation or all of the discourse passages and

00:13:23.160 sort of thinking, well, that had to happen in the first century.

00:13:26.500 Otherwise, Jesus is a false prophet.

00:13:28.500 So I started to feel very challenged.

00:13:30.820 And I remember...

00:13:32.460 And you're saying, sorry, just to clarify, the reason that you're saying it had to have

00:13:36.320 already happened or else Jesus is a false prophet because of what he says this generation will 0.98

00:13:40.600 not pass away before they see, they see these things happening.

00:13:43.540 Is that what you're saying?

00:13:44.940 Yeah, contextually reading that what Jesus was doing there is he's, he's not talking to

00:13:50.600 me.

00:13:51.900 That's one of the things that challenged me is I'm, I keep trying to find myself in the

00:13:56.120 text or us in the text, but realizing the contextually Jesus is talking to first century

00:14:01.240 Jerusalem.

00:14:01.720 He's talking to the leadership of Jerusalem.

00:14:03.400 He's indicting them for their covenant on faithfulness.

00:14:06.380 He's promising them very serious judgment that they're going to be, their house is going to

00:14:10.820 be left to them desolate.

00:14:11.800 And then he goes on to tell them that the temple is going to be destroyed and not one

00:14:16.200 stone is going to be left upon another.

00:14:17.540 Now, contextually, I was saying, well, that's talking to them.

00:14:19.540 That's their temple.

00:14:20.260 I get it.

00:14:21.180 And then he's telling them what their, the disciples are to expect before this coming

00:14:25.580 judgment.

00:14:26.420 And then, of course, you have that text in 34 of Matthew 24.

00:14:30.580 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

00:14:34.260 That take, that, that verse is after, after everything he said about stars falling from heaven,

00:14:40.360 about the wars and rumors of wars.

00:14:42.560 And he's talking to them.

00:14:43.740 He's not talking to me.

00:14:45.060 And every time this generation is used in the gospels, it's referring to the generation

00:14:50.360 that Jesus is then speaking to.

00:14:51.940 It's not a novelty dropped into Matthew 24.

00:14:55.080 It's something that's used throughout the gospels.

00:14:57.940 And so, and this was the challenge as I'm reading through the text and just saying, let

00:15:02.700 the text speak.

00:15:03.680 Like, I'm starting to see things that make me feel a bit awkward.

00:15:06.360 Like I have to have this wrong.

00:15:08.760 But mind you, I've been in a biblical, I've been in a church context where I'm taught

00:15:12.760 that this is the only view there is.

00:15:14.640 These are the views of just theological liberalism and all the rest.

00:15:18.040 But I had remembered, Allie, that about a year before I was at Borders, spent a lot of time

00:15:24.100 there.

00:15:24.840 And I had seen, there was a book by R.C. Sproul called The Last Days According to Jesus.

00:15:29.780 Now I know who Sproul was.

00:15:30.960 I loved Sproul.

00:15:32.220 But I remember I was like, ooh, eschatology by R.C. Sproul.

00:15:34.920 Great.

00:15:35.600 And so I picked the book up and I'm telling you, I remember that I opened it and it's,

00:15:39.760 it was like a foreign language to me.

00:15:42.160 My mindset was already in just one category that I'm reading Sproul and I'm going, what?

00:15:48.400 What's he taught?

00:15:49.040 It just seemed like gibberish to me.

00:15:51.240 And I remember I put it back on the shelf and I thought to myself, well, every, everybody's

00:15:55.340 got something weird about their theology, I guess.

00:15:57.200 And I left it alone.

00:15:58.300 But as I'm in this place where I'm starting to go, no, this had to have already happened.

00:16:01.880 Otherwise, this is a false prophecy, clearly.

00:16:04.640 And it can't be.

00:16:05.840 Jesus is the Messiah.

00:16:06.840 So I literally went to borders, like immediately, beeline, and the book was still there, interestingly.

00:16:13.880 And I grabbed it.

00:16:14.900 And as I'm reading through Dr. R.C. Sproul talking about these texts, the Olivet Discourse

00:16:19.100 and everything else, I realize, oh, my perspective is something that's new in history.

00:16:27.220 And oh, and some of the giants of the faith and church fathers throughout history held to

00:16:31.700 this perspective.

00:16:32.600 And even early Christian pastors and apologists were using Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse

00:16:38.560 as an apologetic, that it already happened.

00:16:41.740 And that demonstrates that Jesus was the Messiah.

00:16:44.240 And so as I'm reading this, I'm starting to get challenged.

00:16:46.020 So this circles me back, Allie, to we talk about some texts that would sort of be used for

00:16:51.540 dispensational premillennialism.

00:16:53.580 There is a difference, by the way, between dispensational premillennialism and just straight

00:16:57.680 premillennialism of a historic flavor.

00:17:00.080 That text of being left behind.

00:17:03.560 And I'd like to hang on that, at least to focus in upon, this is a major theme, this

00:17:07.980 is a movie, this is a book series, this is sort of what everyone adopts.

00:17:11.780 I was challenged.

00:17:13.500 Because in Matthew 24, if you let the text speak, if you just read it and let the text

00:17:18.260 speak and don't come to it with a system in place to try to read into the text, Jesus

00:17:24.600 says in verse 36, he says,

00:17:26.060 But concerning that day and hour, no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the

00:17:30.400 Son, but the Father only.

00:17:31.800 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 0.97

00:17:35.500 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving 0.94

00:17:39.640 in marriage until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood

00:17:44.500 came and swept them all away.

00:17:47.040 So will be the coming of the Son of Man. 0.90

00:17:49.040 Well, as you read the text, you think about where Jesus is pointing us.

00:17:52.220 He's pointing us, of course, in this passage to judgment upon that generation.

00:17:56.200 But then he refers to Noah.

00:17:58.040 Now, I had to think about this as I let the text speak.

00:18:00.740 In Noah's day, who was swept away?

00:18:03.120 Who was destroyed?

00:18:05.280 Well, that was the unbelievers. 1.00

00:18:06.820 They were swept away.

00:18:07.860 So who was left behind in Noah's day?

00:18:12.160 Not the unbelievers. 1.00

00:18:13.460 It was Noah and his sons and daughters-in-law and his wife.

00:18:17.280 And so it was the righteous who were left behind, and the unbelievers were swept away. 0.84

00:18:21.220 And Jesus uses there, and the next verse is he says,

00:18:25.560 Then two will be in the field, one will be taken and one left.

00:18:28.200 Two women will be at the grinding of the mill, and one will be taken, one left.

00:18:32.080 Well, he just put that with Noah.

00:18:35.120 And in Noah's day, the ones who were left were the righteous, and the ones taken away

00:18:38.700 were the wicked.

00:18:39.280 So it was a huge challenge to me to realize I have literally, for all of these years,

00:18:45.980 read this passage so many times, and I have not seen what's right in front of my face.

00:18:51.260 Why?

00:18:52.000 Because I was taught a system, a framework, and I'm reading the text, not drawing out of

00:18:59.000 the text, what does it say?

00:19:00.560 But I'm going to the text with an assumption about what Jesus means, and I'm reading that

00:19:05.300 assumption into the text, and so I can only see my system and my assumption, rather than

00:19:11.160 saying, no, no, no, what's the text say?

00:19:13.920 How did Jesus, what did Jesus point us to as a reference point?

00:19:17.300 And it's Noah, and his family was spared, and his family was left behind, and it's the

00:19:22.060 wicked who were swept away.

00:19:23.260 The people who were left that day were the meek, the righteous. 0.99

00:19:26.440 They inherited the earth, the land, not the unbelievers. 0.99

00:19:30.180 So that was sort of a jaw-dropping moment for me, theologically speaking, and it was

00:19:36.180 challenging to me, Alan, because I realized at that point, we have to be so cautious.

00:19:41.660 I've got to be so cautious to understand, I can have good Bible teachers, respect these

00:19:45.240 people, but they're fallible men.

00:19:46.940 I have to hold up the standard that we say we hold to, and that's that Scripture's the

00:19:51.540 final authority, and test all things.

00:19:54.560 Hold fast to that, which is true, and so even if you have a great Bible teacher that's 0.74

00:19:58.060 a great, godly man of God, or you have a great, you know, woman who's mentoring you,

00:20:02.940 she's teaching you all these things, and you've just sort of been fed this, we still need to

00:20:06.040 be holding to the standard of Scripture's the standard, and in the case of eschatology,

00:20:11.400 that's what I ran right into, was, wow, I've been reading all these texts with this preconceived

00:20:21.560 system, and I'm only saying the system, and I'm using these things as proof texts, and

00:20:27.480 so that's a big-ticket item, and so there was also the other issue of the kingdom, and

00:20:33.540 I'm sure we're going to get into that, because that's sort of the overarching issue of

00:20:36.200 post-millennialism, is the rule of Christ.

00:20:38.540 I always thought that the kingdom of Christ was coming later, and it was a literal thousand-year

00:20:45.040 reign of Christ on this physical earth, and that's later.

00:20:48.540 And then when I began to really discover that Jesus taught that his kingdom had actually

00:20:53.420 arrived, and so did the apostles, and that was actually the promise in terms of the Old 0.94

00:20:57.920 Testament, I was challenged once again on my perspective.

00:21:02.340 Okay, so let me make some distinctions here for maybe people who are new to eschatological

00:21:07.680 conversations.

00:21:08.740 The dispensationalists, so the pre-tribulation, pre-millennialist people who read Matthew 24

00:21:19.240 to say, like John MacArthur, for example, would believe this, that we are going to be raptured,

00:21:24.940 then there's going to be a tribulation.

00:21:26.600 The people who are left behind are the unrighteous, the unbelievers, and then it's going to go through 0.99

00:21:31.000 a tribulation.

00:21:32.020 During that time, people will come to know Christ, and then Christ will come back, and then the

00:21:37.260 millennial reign will happen.

00:21:38.820 That is the dispensationalist view.

00:21:41.760 Why are all of these words so hard to say?

00:21:43.340 I'm not sure.

00:21:43.920 It makes these conversations even more complicated and difficult.

00:21:47.200 But you believe, as you just explained, that that passage of being left behind is not talking

00:21:53.440 about the unrighteous being left behind, but the righteous actually being left behind.

00:21:57.780 In those days of tribulation that are described in Matthew 24, you are asserting that Jesus is

00:22:02.960 actually talking about something that already happened in 70 AD, correct, whereas dispensationalists

00:22:09.040 would say that is still a future event.

00:22:11.020 That is why, for example, when you were a dispensationalist, you were looking at the

00:22:14.780 Jerusalem Post and saying, okay, when are all of these signs going to happen?

00:22:18.240 When am I going to be raptured?

00:22:19.660 That's what dispensationalists are still doing today, because they're waiting for the events

00:22:26.400 of Matthew 24 and other places to happen to see when the rapture is going to happen, when

00:22:32.440 the righteous will go up and the unrighteous will be left behind for the tribulation.

00:22:36.440 That is the correct distinction, right?

00:22:39.600 Yes.

00:22:40.180 Yes.

00:22:40.500 So just in terms of dispensationalism, just to be fair to our dispensational brethren,

00:22:46.100 dispensationalism, there's different perspectives today.

00:22:49.260 There's more of a classical dispensational perspective versus modern views.

00:22:54.460 The perspective itself, dispensational premillennialism didn't exist before the 19th century.

00:22:59.480 It was popularized in the West by the Schofield Reference Bible.

00:23:03.720 And there's been changes.

00:23:04.720 Some modern dispensationalists would repudiate some of those things from classic dispensationalism

00:23:09.480 and say, no, no, it's more this way.

00:23:11.020 And then even within dispensational premillennialism and the idea of the Great Tribulation as future

00:23:16.880 to us, you have people who are pre-wrath rapture, mid-rapture, and then you have post-tribulation

00:23:25.360 rapture.

00:23:25.800 So you have all kinds of things out today arguing.

00:23:28.520 People are very popular today to argue for a post-tribulation rapture.

00:23:32.660 In other words, the believers are going to have to go through the tribulation and then

00:23:35.940 be raptured at the end.

00:23:36.940 And so there's even distinctions in that camp between them.

00:23:40.700 But yes, the popular view we're talking about sees the Olivet Discourse, the Great Tribulation

00:23:45.140 passage, as future to us.

00:23:47.800 And I would say that you see that the most.

00:23:50.240 As someone says, what's that look like?

00:23:51.440 I would say, have you ever seen something bad happening in the world?

00:23:55.020 And then either your pastor or your Bible teacher or friends quoted the passage, wars

00:24:00.220 and rumors of wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes.

00:24:02.960 Right.

00:24:03.340 Those things.

00:24:04.020 Well, that's coming from Matthew 24.

00:24:05.960 Now, I'm of the perspective of, say, an early pastor, apologist, and bishop named Eusebius.

00:24:14.800 He wrote in one of his works, an apologetic, that this passage actually demonstrates that

00:24:22.300 Jesus was the Messiah because it already happened. 0.98

00:24:25.720 And he uses as a point of reference the fact that early Christians were warned by the Lord

00:24:31.220 Jesus in this prophecy to flee the city when they saw it surrounded.

00:24:37.780 And that's precisely what happened in history.

00:24:39.920 We know as a matter of record that early Christians did read this prophecy as referring

00:24:45.880 to them.

00:24:46.540 And they took the warning of the Lord Jesus, where he says, when you see the abomination 0.81

00:24:51.520 that causes desolation, I said, let the reader understand, then flee.

00:24:55.840 You know, so you can, by the way, it's interesting.

00:24:58.180 Jesus teaches his people they can actually escape this tribulation by just simply leaving

00:25:03.020 Jerusalem.

00:25:04.220 I never thought about it like that, because I always thought about it as, yes, he tells us

00:25:09.040 to flee.

00:25:09.420 But he also says it's going to be really bad in those days, even for the people that

00:25:13.820 flee, you know, woe to the women who are pregnant and nursing during that time. 0.97

00:25:17.920 So I always read that.

00:25:19.160 I mean, I am also reading it as a future event as a premillennialist, but thinking, and also

00:25:24.400 thinking, I'm also post-tribulation.

00:25:26.900 And so thinking, oh, I'm going to go through that time.

00:25:29.080 And I've talked to a lot of women that are like, should I get pregnant right now? 1.00

00:25:32.600 I mean, Jesus is saying this is going to be a really bad time for me.

00:25:35.600 And so, yeah, I would say that a lot of people are reading it that way.

00:25:41.440 Allie, that's a great point.

00:25:42.360 I'm really glad you brought, you used that specific example of, and this is an example

00:25:46.640 of people say, like, what's the big deal?

00:25:48.020 It's complicated.

00:25:48.960 I would say, I understand, but we as believers have to go to the text and let the text speak.

00:25:53.180 And I want to say that eschatology matters.

00:25:55.140 It impacts.

00:25:55.980 It does.

00:25:56.400 And I've realized that more and more the more I think about it.

00:25:59.000 Yeah.

00:25:59.260 And you brought up the premier example of how it impacts you is, think about that, a believing

00:26:04.220 woman in a marriage, like a husband and wife struggling, like, should we have kids right

00:26:08.380 now?

00:26:08.700 Well, why wouldn't you have kids right now? 0.84

00:26:10.600 Because, well, you're right here.

00:26:11.500 It says, woe to those who are pregnant or nursing in those days.

00:26:13.880 It's like, well, I think that's right around the corner.

00:26:15.520 So maybe we shouldn't have kids.

00:26:16.520 I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no.

00:26:19.000 Because actually the warning there that Jesus is giving is he's warning them about the intensity

00:26:25.480 of this judgment that's coming and, you know, pregnant or nursing in those days and pray

00:26:31.040 that it's not in on the Sabbath, the winter.

00:26:34.120 You have all these different discussions, you know, and then don't even go into the house

00:26:37.400 to get your coat.

00:26:38.340 Now, the best thing to do here is to say, OK, what's Jesus saying there?

00:26:43.020 Because that's a big deal.

00:26:44.760 But who's he talking to?

00:26:45.740 Who's the audience?

00:26:46.780 OK, his disciples in front of him.

00:26:48.820 What's the reference point?

00:26:49.920 The temple itself and his destruction.

00:26:51.500 We have this generation.

00:26:52.520 He's talking to them and what they're going to see.

00:26:55.040 But then he tells them, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

00:26:57.900 So the reference point here is, OK, so when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that's 0.58

00:27:01.400 from Luke.

00:27:02.300 Luke, by the way, gives the Gentile interpretation, I think, of Matthew, where Matthew says, when

00:27:06.260 you see the abomination that causes desolation, flee.

00:27:09.600 Luke says, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, flee.

00:27:12.960 Well, again, Eusebius, an early Christian church father and pastor, bishop, when he's referring

00:27:18.660 to this event, he uses it as an apologetic to show that Jesus was, in fact, who he claimed

00:27:23.620 to be, because he says that early Christians, they read that passage and they obeyed it

00:27:29.080 and they escaped the judgment of Jerusalem and they fled to a town called Pella.

00:27:34.000 Now, that's a matter of historical record.

00:27:35.780 Christians escaped the judgment on Jerusalem by listening to the words of Jesus in Matthew

00:27:39.640 24.

00:27:40.280 So isn't it interesting that we have early Christians actually reading Matthew 24 in the

00:27:44.320 Olivet Discourse saying, we've got to obey that, that's us.

00:27:48.160 And then in the 21st century, we have Christians in the West saying, well, maybe I shouldn't

00:27:52.500 have kids.

00:27:53.380 Yeah.

00:27:54.160 Because that's future to me.

00:27:55.600 And so eschatology matters.

00:27:57.780 It will have a dramatic impact on you because, and I'll just, I'll say this last thing and

00:28:01.160 be quiet.

00:28:01.600 But, you know, if, if you, if you see this as future to us, if you say things like, what's

00:28:10.120 the point of polishing brass on a sinking ship and why bother rearranging furniture on

00:28:15.300 the Titanic, the world's just going to hell in a handbasket.

00:28:18.460 So why bother doing anything?

00:28:19.860 Jesus is coming back at any moment.

00:28:21.320 I wanted to say this.

00:28:22.420 You'll live that way.

00:28:24.260 You'll live like it's true.

00:28:25.700 You'll live that way.

00:28:26.640 Not just in the area of not having kids and not getting pregnant and all those things,

00:28:30.080 but you'll live that way in terms of when the world is falling apart around you, you

00:28:34.100 won't be as salty.

00:28:35.400 You won't be light because you'll be like me.

00:28:37.720 And that is the kind of person that's seeing the world collapse around you when I was in

00:28:42.020 this perspective.

00:28:43.500 And my response was, oh, just get me out of here.

00:28:47.020 Like, just get me out of this awful place.

00:28:49.000 I can't wait to just abandon this all behind me.

00:28:51.180 I just can't wait for you to take me out of this.

00:28:53.240 The world is so awful right now.

00:28:55.120 Whereas I think if you have the perspective of Christ ruling and reigning now, putting

00:29:00.000 his enemies under his feet until there's final victory and then death is destroyed,

00:29:04.320 you take seriously things like you're the salt, you're the light, and you're going to

00:29:09.360 preserve things from spoil and decay.

00:29:10.780 You're going to dispel the darkness.

00:29:11.960 The meek inherit the earth.

00:29:14.440 You know, he shall have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth.

00:29:17.720 He will establish justice in the earth.

00:29:20.900 You know, you'll say, you know, my job is to sit here and to be the bride of Christ and

00:29:26.080 to fight, to be his help meat as he brings his rule and his kingdom around the world

00:29:30.520 and establishes salvation and justice and righteousness around the world.

00:29:33.900 You'll live like that's true.

00:29:34.960 And I just want to say, that's why end abortion now. 0.70

00:29:38.400 Yeah.

00:29:38.660 And people are like, you know, what drives that?

00:29:40.180 Well, we want to be obedient.

00:29:42.020 We want to obey God and save these children.

00:29:44.120 But what drives our perspective of hope in that is that I know that Jesus is going to win.

00:29:48.580 And so I'm just a part of the means of that process.

00:29:50.840 Maybe it's just a seed today.

00:29:52.160 Maybe we're the seed.

00:29:53.520 Maybe we're at the tip.

00:29:54.880 Like we're about to put a bill in this year in Arizona that, Lord willing, it all works

00:29:59.980 out.

00:30:00.160 That's supposed to be happening right now.

00:30:01.320 We have legislators who are going to be criminalizing abortion in Arizona.

00:30:03.920 They're working to criminalize, not regulate.

00:30:06.880 And all that comes if somebody says, where's that come from?

00:30:09.220 Where's that courage come from?

00:30:10.080 Where's it come from?

00:30:10.980 My answer is postmillennialism, baby.

00:30:13.260 Yeah.

00:30:13.960 So I think that premillennialists would say, I mean, a lot of people who listen to this,

00:30:19.760 they really respect you, and they also respect someone like John MacArthur, and they know

00:30:23.840 that both of you take the Bible so seriously, and both of you are obedient.

00:30:29.700 And we just saw, for example, John MacArthur say, you know what?

00:30:32.400 Christ is the head of the church, not Gavin Newsom, and we are going to stand up and be

00:30:36.900 obedient.

00:30:37.480 Obviously, his obedience, and even in the ministries that his church has that fights against abortion

00:30:42.940 in a variety of ways, they're not motivated by postmillennialism the way you are, but

00:30:47.700 they are motivated and compelled by the love of Christ to be obedient.

00:30:51.320 And their thought is, yes, that Jesus is going to come back and rule in perfect peace and

00:30:55.420 justice, but until then, the world is going to get worse and worse.

00:30:59.020 But I think the premillennialists would argue that we are still motivated for obedience,

00:31:03.580 even when it seems like the darkness is closing in all around us, because Jesus calls us to

00:31:08.880 that.

00:31:09.140 I think, like, you would read something like 2 Timothy 3, 1 through 7 that says, but

00:31:13.740 understand this, that in the last days there will be, there will come times of difficulty

00:31:17.140 for people will be lovers of self, you know, the whole passage.

00:31:20.900 And so we read that to think, okay, the world is going to get worse and worse.

00:31:24.040 That doesn't change our responsibility to be salt and light.

00:31:27.200 And we have a hope.

00:31:28.920 We cling to the hope, and we push forward for the hope that Jesus will come back and reign

00:31:33.140 in perfect peace and justice.

00:31:34.520 But the premillennialist doesn't necessarily see that, you know, God's law manifesting

00:31:40.720 itself better and better until Jesus comes back.

00:31:44.100 So I think that that is the distinction.

00:31:46.120 Would you say that's a correct assessment?

00:31:48.060 It's important to say that a brother like John MacArthur, he's a faithful, faithful man

00:31:55.660 of God, much, much better than, much better than me I'll ever be.

00:31:58.580 And I'm grateful for all that he has done and all that he did this this past weekend

00:32:02.700 in confronting the tyranny of the state of California.

00:32:06.960 And yes, the answer is faithful men of God who hold to that perspective, want to honor

00:32:12.700 God, want to honor his word, are trying to rightly divide the truth.

00:32:16.100 But we have to understand that there are faithful Christians throughout history who have disagreed.

00:32:19.940 So the big question is, okay, what does the text actually say?

00:32:22.240 Because you obviously have faithful men and women of God on both sides of the issue.

00:32:26.320 And you're exactly right, Allie.

00:32:27.360 In the end, what I always appreciate about my brothers who hold to a perspective of a

00:32:32.320 rapture and a tribulation and, you know, all of that as future to us, I really respect

00:32:37.440 the ones who say, however, our duty is to be faithful while we're here and to fight.

00:32:41.900 And I'm always very encouraged by that.

00:32:44.340 The one thing I would say to that is that that's faithfulness, even with a perspective

00:32:49.980 that I would say I don't think is completely true.

00:32:51.900 But what happens in the pews, though, when we tell people it's just going to get worse

00:32:56.980 and worse and worse, and we're just going to get raptured out of here, like, you know,

00:32:59.820 our hope is that rapture.

00:33:01.760 What tends to happen in the pews is that people sort of live accordingly.

00:33:06.500 Because as things bat around us, the major theme is, well, it's just going to get worse.

00:33:11.600 So what's the point?

00:33:13.020 It's sort of like my friend has said it this way.

00:33:15.340 Imagine being on a field, playing a game, you know, of intense football or soccer or

00:33:23.000 whatever.

00:33:23.920 And, you know, the coaches at the sidelines, he says, all right, guys, we're going to go

00:33:27.420 out there.

00:33:27.780 We're going to give it our very best.

00:33:28.880 But I absolutely guarantee you're going to lose.

00:33:31.120 It's going to hurt. 0.99

00:33:32.160 You're going to get slaughtered. 1.00

00:33:33.480 We're going to get destroyed today. 0.98

00:33:34.740 But I want you to do your best.

00:33:36.540 Go like you'd be like, well, it's not a real motivator, practically speaking, to say

00:33:43.620 I guarantee destruction and loss.

00:33:46.120 But get out there and give it your best shot.

00:33:48.740 But I would kind of push back on that metaphor and say, but if you told the team, look, it's

00:33:52.980 going to look like you're about to lose and it's going to look really hard and it's going

00:33:56.380 to look like all the odds are stacked against you.

00:33:58.540 But in the end, you are going to be victorious.

00:34:01.280 That might be motivating.

00:34:02.520 And that would be motivating to push through the difficulty that you're up against, because

00:34:08.520 you know that even if it looks like you're going to lose, you know that you're going

00:34:11.740 to win.

00:34:12.100 And that, I would say, would be motivating.

00:34:14.400 And that would be what the premillennialist would say would motivate us, is that ending

00:34:19.600 glory that we are going to take part in one day.

00:34:22.920 Not something that we'll see on earth, but when Christ comes back.

00:34:26.460 That's a very good point.

00:34:27.940 So that brings us, Allie, to the most important elements.

00:34:32.920 And you just went right to it.

00:34:34.540 The most important element.

00:34:35.580 Does, let's say, let's make it simple so that we don't overcomplicate things, because

00:34:42.000 they can get, eschatology can get so complicated.

00:34:44.080 Yes, it can.

00:34:46.160 And that's the only truth.

00:34:47.200 Because it's a big revelation.

00:34:48.480 We're talking about like 66 different books and letters for over 2,000 years.

00:34:52.560 And it's all stuff about Jesus.

00:34:54.140 And it's also eschatology stuff.

00:34:55.720 And it's like ethical stuff, law stuff.

00:34:58.060 And we have to just confess, this is a complicated subject.

00:35:00.780 So what I like to do, and you landed on just the right spot.

00:35:04.200 And it's the question of like, in terms of like practical, we talk about praxis.

00:35:09.160 We talk about like, how should we live?

00:35:11.980 And it's, I think, a good passage to go to, like 1 Corinthians 15.

00:35:16.060 That's where the Apostle Paul gives an inspired timeline of history.

00:35:21.760 And it does, in that timeline, I truly believe if we just sit down with the text speak, and

00:35:26.300 we just do it as a timeline, and ask the question, okay, which belief matches this timeline that

00:35:33.860 the Apostle puts out for us?

00:35:35.860 And so the question is like, okay, is it going to get worse and worse and worse?

00:35:38.980 And we're going to get beat up and beat up and beat up.

00:35:40.400 And finally, Jesus returns for the resurrection to a world that is hostile to God and at enmity

00:35:47.760 with God.

00:35:49.060 And Jesus comes for that final victory.

00:35:51.580 Now, there's no question.

00:35:52.400 We have to be fair to historic premillennialists or of whatever stripe.

00:35:58.420 We have to be fair and say, we all believe as Christians, historically, in the final resurrection

00:36:04.620 of the just and the unjust and the ultimate victory of Jesus.

00:36:08.140 The question is, what happens in this space before that resurrection we all agree with?

00:36:13.760 Right.

00:36:14.060 And you made a good point.

00:36:15.340 Even if it gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse, and we're just

00:36:18.340 beat up, and it hurts, and it's painful, Jesus is coming back in victory, and then there is

00:36:22.640 a final victory, and the church wins anyways, because our Savior returns as king, and there's

00:36:28.500 the final resurrection.

00:36:29.720 Okay.

00:36:30.100 The other perspective is to say, Jesus brought that kingdom, and it started as a seed, mustard

00:36:39.380 seed that's going to grow into a large tree.

00:36:40.860 It's like leaven in a lump of dough that fills the entirety of the loaf.

00:36:45.280 It's like a stone, Daniel says, cut out of a mountain that destroys the kingdoms, and

00:36:49.400 then it rolls and becomes a mountain that fills the entire earth.

00:36:53.200 That's the other perspective in terms of the kingdom is entered, and the goal is actually

00:36:57.100 upward motion of salvation and peace and justice in the earth.

00:37:01.000 Well, I think Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, he says this.

00:37:04.560 He says, here's the gospel.

00:37:05.980 And he gives the gospel.

00:37:07.560 He says, you know, Jesus died.

00:37:08.600 He rose again.

00:37:09.440 He appeared.

00:37:09.980 He says he appeared to Peter.

00:37:11.180 He appeared finally to me.

00:37:12.400 And he says, and he must reign.

00:37:15.280 So from the inspired apostle's perspective, Jesus is reigning now.

00:37:21.100 That's a very big deal to say that, because they were expecting the reign of the Messiah.

00:37:25.740 So for Paul to say, and he must reign, and he's reigning now, seated.

00:37:30.740 By the way, that's seated on the Davidic throne, the Messianic throne.

00:37:34.680 He's seated now.

00:37:35.720 He's not waiting to take that seat.

00:37:37.040 He's seated now.

00:37:37.780 He said, and he must reign until, and then he quotes the most popular verse from the Old Testament

00:37:45.800 in the New Testament.

00:37:47.320 It's used the most, alluded to, quoted in the New Testament.

00:37:50.140 So this was their favorite verse.

00:37:52.000 I've often said, and my friend said this, I borrowed from him.

00:37:55.440 It appears to be God's favorite Bible verse, because it's used the most in the New Testament.

00:37:59.100 He must reign until he has placed all of his enemies under his feet as a footstool for his feet.

00:38:05.300 And then he says, and then the last enemy to be defeated is death.

00:38:10.540 So Paul says, in a timeline of history, Jesus is reigning now, and he's placing all of his enemies under his feet.

00:38:17.420 And after they're all under his feet, then he'll destroy death.

00:38:21.200 And then it says, interestingly, and then he delivers the kingdom over to the Father.

00:38:26.680 So from the inspired apostle's perspective, when the Lord returns for the resurrection,

00:38:32.800 he'll destroy death after all of his other enemies are already under his feet.

00:38:37.360 And then he doesn't come to bring the kingdom.

00:38:39.620 It says that he then delivers the rule, here, Father, here.

00:38:44.520 Here's the kingdom.

00:38:45.360 Look what I did.

00:38:45.980 So that's the timeline of history that the apostle gives.

00:38:49.760 And it gets to exactly what you said.

00:38:51.880 Does it get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and then final victory?

00:38:55.260 Or is it a progressive victory of enemies under the feet to then final victory in climax?

00:39:00.560 And then the kingdom is not brought at that point.

00:39:03.660 It's delivered to the Father as victorious.

00:39:06.120 Look what I did.

00:39:07.500 I think that is a simplified timeline from the inspired apostle in terms of like,

00:39:13.600 cut through all the gobbledygook.

00:39:14.780 Look, what's he say?

00:39:16.280 This is the expectation.

00:39:17.840 And it does mark the distinction between the two perspectives.

00:39:20.720 Ultimately, I think it's been said before, there really are, if you simplify it, two perspectives in eschatology.

00:39:28.560 There's pessimillennialism or optimillennialism.

00:39:32.400 The idea that we have a pessimistic perspective in terms of like, what's the course of human history?

00:39:38.700 How's it going to go?

00:39:39.660 Well, not so well.

00:39:40.500 And then victory.

00:39:41.160 Or optimillennialism, in other words, what's the perspective of human history before the resurrection?

00:39:47.040 Well, optimistic.

00:39:48.080 It's victorious.

00:39:49.640 It's justice.

00:39:50.740 It's salvation.

00:39:51.420 It's righteousness.

00:39:52.160 And then he finally returns.

00:39:54.340 So I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.

00:39:57.080 I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.

00:40:08.480 I think that's the best way to look at it is from those two perspectives.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 03, 2020

Ep 283 ｜ Are We in the End Times？ Part 1： How We Interpret Revelation Matters ｜ Guest： Jeff Durbin

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