Ep 286 ｜ How the Church Should Respond to Black Lives Matter ｜ Guest： Samuel Sey
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Words per Minute
166.43265
Summary
In this episode of Relatable Monday, I sit down with my friend, writer Samuel Say, to talk about his career, his testimony, and how we should respond from a biblical perspective to injustice in our world.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. I am so excited for you to listen to this
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conversation today between me and my friend, writer Samuel Say. We are going to talk about
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his career, his testimony, what he writes about, which is specifically how we are supposed to
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respond from a biblical perspective to real instances of injustice. He will talk about his
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criticism of Black Lives Matter and the movement that it represents, and again, how we as Christians
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should be responding to all of the turbulence that's happening in our world right now.
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Before we get into that conversation, you guys, tomorrow my book is coming out. This has been such
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a long time coming. It's been almost two years since I originally talked to the people who published my
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book, so this has been a long process. It's been a labor of love. It has been a group project with
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you guys, everyone who has ever messaged me, emailed me, asked me a question, given me feedback,
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provided me with wisdom and insight into this culture of self-love and how we as Christians
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should be able to analyze it, break it down, and replace it with the truth of God's Word.
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You guys have contributed to this book, You're Not Enough, and That's Okay, Escaping the Toxic
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Culture of Self-Love. I am so excited for you guys to finally have this in your hands. If you go to
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alibethstucky.com book, you can click on buy the book or pre-order the book, and it will take you to
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a page that will show you all the places that you can buy it online. So you can purchase it
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on Amazon. You can purchase it at Books A Million. You can purchase it at barnesandnoble.com.
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Also, it may be available at your local bookstore. It's probably available at your local library. If
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not, you can ask these places to carry it. And so go to alibethstucky.com book. You can find more
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information about it. A lot of people ask me, is this just for women? As you can see, if you're
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watching on YouTube, it is a pink book. It is from a female perspective. All the other perspectives that
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I have in the book, I've got some stories from some listeners that they sent me in their experiences
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with the culture of self-love. That's from a female perspective. So yes, it is primarily targeted
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towards women because the culture of self-love primarily targets women. But can a man get
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something out of it? Sure. And if you are a man who happens to listen to the podcast, if you've got a
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daughter, if you've got a girlfriend, if you've got a wife, if you've got a mother who you think would
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like this book, it's really encouraging for all ages of women, then I encourage you to get it too.
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Now, another question I have received is, is this okay for young teenagers? What is the age? So we
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do talk about some, I would say, mature subjects. I talk about some of my own regrets, my own mistakes
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that also led me to learn the lessons that I articulated in this book. And I talk some about
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college experiences and my own testimony that I would say deal with more mature subjects. So it just
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depends on the maturity level of your daughter, if that's who you're buying the book for, if you are
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willing to read the book with them. If you've got young girls, like say ages 13 to 15, that you are
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looking to buy this book for, I would encourage you, you do what you think is best as their parent. But I
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would encourage you to read this along with them and to talk through these things with them. I would
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say it's a good book in general for ages 16 plus, since it does kind of deal with things that maybe
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you as a parent would want to be the one to talk to them about. So I just want to give you that heads
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up. Another question that I get is, what if I'm in Australia? Or what if I'm in Canada? When I try to
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buy it on Amazon, I can't, it won't let me purchase the book. You have to go to the domain that is in
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your area. So you can't go to the American Amazon.com. You have to go to the domain that corresponds with
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where you live and you will be able to purchase it. Yes, it's on Audible, it will be read by yours
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truly. And yes, it is also on Kindle. A lot of people have asked me for a paperback version. And I
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don't really know the answer to that. I think that will be available. But those are all the places that
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you can get it. As I have said many times, if you are a woman, join Women's Book Club with Allie
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Stuckey. We'll be going through this book together. We'll be starting in a couple weeks. So I can give
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people some time to actually purchase the book and I can have time to approve the many, many requests
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that I have to enter the group. It is a private group and it is just for women. So join that book
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club. We will be going through this book and then later we'll be going through lots of other books as
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Well, if you have requested to join and I haven't approved you, it's not personal. I've got like
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probably as we're speaking 350 requests that I'm trying to go through and I don't just willy-nilly
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go through them. I actually look to see who is requesting and then I accept people. So make sure
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that you answer all the questions, that you look at the rules, then you request to join and I promise
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that I will get to you. So you're not enough and that's okay. Escaping the toxic culture of self-love
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it's out tomorrow. I will be on Fox News on Wednesday night, Shannon Bream's show talking
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about this. I am on radio shows talking about it. I might even be on some of your favorite podcasts.
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I'll be on Ben Shapiro's show. I'll be on Candace Owens' show. I'll be on Dan Crenshaw's show. I'll be
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on Graham Allen's show. So all the fun conservative commentators and a lot of Christian influencers also
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that you know have graciously allowed me to be on to talk about this book. So I'm just so excited.
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Thank you guys so much for your support. And please, if you will, go out and purchase You're
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Not Enough and That's Okay, Escaping the Toxic Culture of Self-Love. And when you have read the
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book, I would love for you to give me a positive five-star review on Amazon if you do love the book
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and those are your honest feelings about it. If you've got questions, always feel free to reach
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out to me. I would love to engage with you about the book. And of course, we will be doing that
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on Ali's book club, Ali Stuckey's book club on Facebook. Okay. Now that I've gotten that out of
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the way, without further ado, here is my friend, pro-life activist and writer, Samuel Say. Samuel,
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thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. A lot of people who listen to my podcast
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have heard of you and heard of your blog before because I've referenced it. You've got a lot of
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great and helpful content over there. But for those who maybe haven't heard of you,
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can you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Thank you. Yeah, I'm a Ghanaian-Canadian.
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I live right next to Toronto. And yeah, I immigrated from Ghana when I was 10 years old.
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And I was originally living in Montreal, Canada. And, you know, we immigrated, you know, I came with my,
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I immigrated with my single mom. She came here three years before I did. Right now, it's very
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difficult for these days when a family or a member of family is immigrating to the West,
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particularly America or Canada, they usually come with their children. But when I was, this is back in
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the 90s, late 90s at the time, it was very common for parents to move to the States or Canada on their
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own and then bring their children after that. And that's what happened with me and my mom. But yeah,
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as I said, I grew up in a single parent household with my mom. And, you know, my dad left my family
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right before I was born. And this is back during the 80s. And in the 80s, Ghana had implemented
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a communist, you know, regime. There's a dictator there and the poverty destroyed a lot of Ghanaians.
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And that actually is one of the reasons why my dad left our family, because, which is, you know,
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that's his sin, his failure, but bad policies can create bad parents. And, you know, that's what,
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so anyway, then through that, my mom, we immigrated to Canada. And by the grace of God, when I was 19,
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I was at a church and I heard the gospel, which I heard many times before, but I heard the gospel and
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God just made, you know, opened himself. God opened my eyes and I saw him clearly, as in I, you know,
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by through faith, I loved him. And that was 19. And since then, I've been developing a passion for
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theology and wanting to write to help people understand some of the things happening around
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us. And in 2015, in light of the Ferguson riots, I decided to start a blog to help my friends
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understand why I did not support Black Lives Matter. And over the last five years since then,
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the blog has, you know, has reached other people outside of my friends and I'm very grateful.
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And on top of that, two years ago, I also just started joining the pro-life movement and working
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for a organization here in Canada named CCBR, which is short for the Canadian Centre for Bioethical
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Reform. And yeah, so I'm, you know, kind of living the dream and doing two things that I'm very
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passionate about blogging and saving pre-born babies.
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Yeah. So since you've been talking about this very contentious subject of, as a Christian,
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not standing with Black Lives Matter, has there been a lot of pushback, not just from your friends,
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but as your blog has grown from the greater public in general?
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Yeah, yeah. When I started blogging, I didn't, I knew what I would be saying was,
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unpopular, but I was not at the time prepared for how unpopular it would be. I've lost some very dear
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friends over this stuff. And outside of that too, yes, I received a lot of hate mail from a lot of
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white people telling me how much, how much more they love Black people than I do, which is always
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fascinating. But yeah, you know, there's been a, you know, I have a white girlfriend and she's been
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attacked as well too. So it's, there's almost daily I'm receiving, you know, people calling me
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a coon or Uncle Tom and a lot of that kind of racial slurs against me.
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Right. Can you explain, at least summarize as, you know, concisely or as thoroughly as you want to,
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your stance on Black Lives Matter and why you don't agree with them?
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Mm-hmm. So people oftentimes try to separate Black Lives Matter, the slogan,
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and Black Lives Matter, the organization or the movement.
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I think that's almost impossible in the sense that the, the slogan, just the words Black Lives
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Matter, of course it's true, but I oftentimes liken it to, especially being a pro, pro-life advocate
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to the, the word pro-choice. The word pro-choice by itself means one thing, but we know culturally
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it means entirely something else. So Black Lives Matter, the slogan and the movement are very much
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linked and they don't mean what people think it means. So Black Lives Matter, I don't agree with
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them because they, they're, um, what they say, they, they claim it's genocide against Black people in
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America and here in Canada. We have our, our own chapter here, a Black Lives Matter chapter in Canada.
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And, um, you may have probably heard of, um, they are the ones that, uh, mentioned, um, um, that,
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uh, what you said, white people are subhuman, uh, because they don't have melanin. Yeah.
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I think that was the co-founder of BLM in Toronto. She had this long, just for the people who don't
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know, she had this long Facebook post from a while ago that explained why white people are actually
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kind of almost deformed humans or subhumans because we don't have the right amount of melanin.
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And honestly, it's kind of similar to the argument that Nick Cannon made not that long ago,
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that white people are closer to savages and we lack compassion because we don't have as high of
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melanin counts, but the co-founder of BLM in Toronto, I mean, she really believed this and pushed this
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kind of stuff. So anyway, you can continue. I just wanted to make sure that people knew exactly what
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we were talking about. And just even then she was pressed, not too hard, even toughly, but too tough,
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by the, uh, by the, uh, the press here in Toronto. But when she was asked to clarify and to apologize,
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she refused to do so. So you're right that she really does affirm it. And, um, anyway, so we have
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our own chapter here and, um, you know, I don't agree with their ideology. They've, you know, on their
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website, they're very clear about, um, how they want to destroy the nuclear family, which is a major
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problem because that's actually, um, what's hurting black families, that the breakdown of the nuclear
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family is what's leading to high abortion rates, high criminal rates, um, high poverty rates. And
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we know the numbers on that. So they are actually, if Black Lives Matter really mattered to them,
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they would not want to destroy the very foundation of, um, you know, of a good family. And, um,
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and then also, um, they're very pro LGBTQ and as a Christian, I cannot affirm that. And, um, as I
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mentioned before, they are extremely pro abortion. You know, you're pro abortion when Planned Parenthood
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is almost obsessed with, uh, you know, with supporting you. Um, they just can't get enough
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of Black Lives Matter. And, um, you know, so I just, you know, ideologically, facts wise,
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in every facet, um, they're very much anti-Christian and really anti-logic and anti-facts. And I can't
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support an organization like that. So for the people who say, okay, I'm with you,
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can't support the organization. Can you explain a little bit more why you would encourage a Christian
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in particular not to say, okay, not the organization, but Black Lives Do Matter. And they're using the
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hashtag, they're using the phrase, they're posting about it on social media. Why would you say
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or caution them against doing that? And this is for Christians, you said Christians?
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Yeah. Specifically for Christians. Yeah. The Bible has better words for affirming life than
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a group that hates the Bible. Right. As Christians, we want to be affirming what the Bible says.
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And as I said before, you know, we, you, you, we don't live in a bubble. You live in a culture where
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words and rhetoric matter. And every hashtag is a promotion for Black Lives Matter. You know, so,
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you know, there are many people who would say, who'd be comfortable saying that they believe in,
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you know, planning, you know, being a parent and everything else. Well, yes, but you can't say
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you believe in Planned Parenthood because, well, Planned Parenthood means, you know, killing babies.
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Right. Right. That's an organization. As I said before, you can say you're pro-choice,
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sure. But at least without some strong, you know, explanation or context, you then would be saying
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that you are really pro-abortion. Right. So Black Lives Matter, when you say Black Lives Matter,
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that wasn't a term that was used anywhere near as often as it is being used now until the organization
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propped up. And it is really their rhetoric and it is part of their movement. So anytime you affirm
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that, it is whether a person may not intend on doing so, it is a promotion of that movement.
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You know, and there are many people too who are not very aware of the differences, well,
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who are not aware of the major problems within Black Lives Matter. So if you are aware of who they are
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and you are affirming and supporting the slogan, you are then going to be leading many vulnerable
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people, many naive people into thinking that you are affirming the organization themselves. And that
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is not a wise thing to be doing. Right. What about the Christian teachers that I've heard say,
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okay, yeah, we know that the organization and maybe even the phrase stands for things that we don't agree
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with. All the things that you just mentioned, plus things like defunding the police, other kind of
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policy prescriptions that we are just not in line with, but at least they're stepping up. But
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at least they are showing us the issues that we need to be talking about. I've heard some Christian
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teachers say, oh, this, the existence of this self-proclaimed Marxist organization proves that
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the church has failed in talking about systemic injustices and systemic racism. So instead of
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criticizing them, we just need to step up to the plate and we need to kind of link arms with them
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and to go forward in the same direction that they are, even, even if it's with different tactics.
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What do you say to the Christian who gives that kind of critique to what you just said?
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That assumes that they have the right premise, but the wrong solution. But no, they have the wrong
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solutions because they have the wrong premise. That is very important. The civil rights movement,
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for example, they had the right solution because they had the right premise that there was injustice.
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They have evidence of injustice obviously happening. It was tangible, true systemic racism,
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And then you also have, of course, the abolitionist who obviously also had the right premise and the
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right solution. Black Lives Matter. So for example, as it pertains to George Floyd, when they see a cop
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killing a black man, context doesn't matter. Motivation doesn't matter. With their ideas, since they really
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believe that the American government or in my case, the Canadian government is committing genocide against
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black people, as soon as they see that in there, they immediately believe that is a racist incident.
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And that is what fuels their entire organization. So because they believe that in their mind,
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it doesn't matter what George Floyd's, what Derek Chauvin's intentions were in terms of his,
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is, you know, in, I mean, what, you know, he was a, that was bad policing at the very basic level,
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very bad policing. I saw the full video recently where it has more context to it all, but still,
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yeah, at the very end, it was bad policing. Right.
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But with that said, because in their mind, they believe that the entire American government
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or Canadian government is committing genocide against black people through the police. That's why they
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believe you need to defund the police. Their ideas, their bad ideas is,
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is pushing their bad policies. So the idea that they are right, you know, they're right to be
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thinking that there's an injustice against black people in the world. There are no facts that prove
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that as a Christian, if I believe that the American government is committing genocide against people
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like me, we can't forget that I'm a black man. And if I really believe this, I would not, of course,
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be trying to defend the police or the government in this case here. But as a Christian, if I believe
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that God calls me to honor my government, if I am saying the government is trying to kill people like
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me, and I don't have the facts to prove that, that I'm bearing false witness and I'm slandering my government,
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we all forget this, right? With this pandemic, a lot of Christians are saying we need to honor and
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obey our government. And that's true in many, unless, of course, they're, you know, telling us to sin.
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But that also includes honoring your government. If you don't have the facts to prove that the
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American government or the Canadian government is trying to kill black people, but you're saying it
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is so, well, you don't have the evidence to prove it, because there's no evidence, right? So then it becomes
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a major problem. And then the solution in terms with the church, in times past, the church,
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unfortunately, many people within the church joined the world in sin, in racism. And yet,
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of course, if it wasn't for the church, through the abolitionist movement, and through, in some cases,
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them supporting the civil rights movement, you wouldn't have had justice and liberty for black
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Americans. But the problem is that right now, a lot of churches are joining the world in how to
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respond to this, which is not dissimilar to what happened with a lot of people in the church,
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in the civil rights movement, and then through the abolitionist movement, where they refused to stand
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on biblical theology. And instead, they joined in, at the time, worldly philosophies through white
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supremacy. But now it's worldly philosophy through social justice. And, you know, that is not at all
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helpful to to the church, and it's not at all honoring Christ.
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I think a lot of churches have been convinced that the movement that's happening right now,
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and the talk of systemic injustices and systemic racism is a direct parallel to the civil rights
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movement, which is then a direct parallel to the abolition. And so maybe a lot of church leaders
00:22:01.080
are thinking, well, the church kind of failed, dropped the ball in some ways, at least in the 20th
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century, and fighting for liberty and justice for all here in the states. And so now we are going to
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make sure that we're on the right side of history. The problem is, as you explained really well,
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is that it's not the same premise as during the abolition. It's not the same premise as during the
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civil rights. Those were correct premises that, okay, our ideals in America, that we are all created
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with certain unalienable rights, among them being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that we are
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equal in value and should be equal under the eyes of the law. Slavery was obviously,
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it stood opposed to those principles. Jim Crow and the systemic discrimination that black people
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dealt with in America in the 20th century stood against those ideals. But what is happening right
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now, just based on the data that we have, it's not a parallel, this idea that white people or white
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police officers are hunting black people in the streets at disproportionate rates compared to white
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people. It's just not factual. So it starts with a false premise, and then it leads to, like you said,
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false solutions, which are these kind of social justice, very intangible, the work of anti-racism,
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deconstructing whiteness and white supremacy, all of these things that don't really mean anything and
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are just covers for kind of critical theory. And unfortunately, I think the church has bought into the idea
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that what's happening right now is exactly the same as what happened in the 1960s, and it's just not.
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Why do you think, you recently wrote on this, why do you think churches, and particularly young people
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in the church, are so susceptible to this narrative, to this rhetoric, and social justice theology in general?
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Mm-hmm. There are many reasons why, and the immediate answer to that, I think, is an overcorrection,
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an overreaction to the moral majority and the fundamentalists in the 80s and 90s, where those
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guys would sometimes just, they oftentimes would stray from, I think, biblical wisdom, and were too focused
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on politics at times. Now, of course, you and I, we very much care about politics, as we should,
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but it's very easy to make that an idol and to forget the gospel in doing so. And I think a lot
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of churches in reaction to that thought that that was, rightly so, a somewhat unhelpful means at times.
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And then they said, we're not going to teach politics at all. We're not going to talk about
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justice at all. So then you had pastors, parents, not teaching their young children justice.
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So then they end up going to high school, and especially college, and then they're learning
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from, they are learning what they think is justice in colleges, where it's really an injustice.
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And then they return home, or they return to their churches, and their pastors and parents are like,
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wait a minute, how are you now supporting Antifa and Black Lives Matter? What happened?
00:25:12.820
Well, what happened is that you didn't teach them. So they didn't have any concept of that.
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You know, I had to learn by the grace of God through the scriptures, and then just studying
00:25:21.780
and figuring out for myself what was true, because what was out, sorry, what I was taught in school
00:25:27.780
is exactly, if I had continued believing in what I was taught in school, I'd be at the very forefront
00:25:36.820
of joining the Black Lives Matter movement, or even Antifa. We're forgetting that this stuff is
00:25:42.260
becoming very much mainstream, because it has become very much mainstream in the schools already,
00:25:47.940
and is just now coming to the very forefront of our culture and our streets. So you have that already.
00:25:54.420
And unfortunately, one of, so I'm, you know, I'm reformed, and I know you are as well, too. And I think
00:26:02.580
there was 10, 12 years ago, you had so many Black people in Britain, Canada, and America becoming
00:26:09.860
reformed. And a lot of Black people were raised as liberals. And when we joined the reformed church,
00:26:19.540
as in we Black people, we joined reformed churches, mostly white reformed churches. We were united over
00:26:25.460
the gospel, rightly so. But since we were never addressing these justice issues, these political
00:26:34.100
issues, a lot of us were still voting or still thinking like leftists and liberals. But a lot of
00:26:40.820
our white members in the church were voting conservative. And we weren't talking about these issues.
00:26:45.620
So then when Black Lives Matter emerges on the scene, and especially with, you know,
00:26:52.500
Trayvon Martin's killing, and Michael Brown's especially, all of a sudden, we then, as Vadi
00:26:59.060
Bokum has said before, I know he was on your show last week, and all of a sudden, the false unity is
00:27:06.740
really that much more clear. And you see that, wait a minute, we had different views on justice that was
00:27:13.860
never taught. And I had some of my Black friends from across the world saying,
00:27:18.100
my pastor's a racist. I had no idea he was a racist. I had some of them saying,
00:27:22.660
all this time, I didn't know that he would want to make me a slave.
00:27:26.740
So just because now it's, you know, our different views on justice is exposed, they now think that
00:27:34.820
pastors and the members that they had loved for so long, they now believe they're racist because
00:27:39.380
they have different views on justice. So since so many reformed people, so many Black people became
00:27:46.340
reformed, and that tension and disunity really became a major issue, you had so many white pastors
00:27:55.540
then who had started to embrace this multi-ethnic churches and everything else, all of a sudden
00:28:00.580
being afraid that if they reject Black Lives Matter, then, because I've had many emails of pastors
00:28:05.940
telling me they're struggling with this, or that they're being pressured by other pastors into
00:28:09.780
accepting Black Lives Matter and critical theory and all that. And many of them are afraid that if
00:28:15.860
they denounce Black Lives Matter, they will lose their Black members, or then they will no longer be
00:28:21.380
able to receive a lot of Black visitors to their church, which has then led to a very seeker-sensitive
00:28:27.060
type of thinking, where if we embrace the culture, then we'll be able to attract people that we think
00:28:32.740
are very coveted in our culture. But we have to just preach the gospel, preach the gospel to all
00:28:37.540
groups, preach the gospel to white people, brown people, Black people, anybody. The irony is a lot
00:28:45.540
of Black people became reformed because of the gospel. It wasn't because of anything else, it was
00:28:49.060
the gospel. So if you want Black people in your church, preach the gospel, because it is God who
00:28:54.180
saves sinners, all kinds of sinners, not you, it's God. And you would think we should know this because
00:28:58.580
we're reformed people that we know it is not our words that changes souls or that saves souls. It
00:29:05.300
is God. It's God's mercy. So just preach the gospel and be faithful to biblical theology.
00:29:11.220
You know, that is one of the frustrations that I've had in seeing this is that a lot of pastors assume
00:29:17.220
that for whatever reason, for Black people, the gospel isn't enough. You might be able to preach
00:29:23.140
the gospel to your mostly white congregants because you know that's what they need and that's
00:29:27.380
sufficient for them, but they have it in their heads that Black people need something else
00:29:31.220
besides the gospel, that something else will save them, something else will comfort them.
00:29:35.700
They have to preach social justice and critical theory and worldly views and perspectives and
00:29:42.340
solutions on race in order to feel accepted. And that shows not really as much what they think
00:29:49.300
about Black people as it is what they think about the gospel. That the same gospel that Jesus saw fit
00:29:55.860
to preach that Jesus saw as sufficient to preach and to have preached to both the Jews and the
00:30:01.860
Gentiles, two groups that were very far apart at the time. And Ephesians tells us that he broke down
00:30:07.540
that wall of hostility between the Jews and the Gentiles. If the gospel was powerful enough to reconcile,
00:30:13.780
first of all, all of us sinners to a holy God by grace through faith, and then it was powerful enough to
00:30:20.580
reconcile two very disparate groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. I wonder why it is that some pastors
00:30:27.300
today don't believe that the gospel is sufficient from the pulpit to achieve the same reconciliation
00:30:40.180
You know, in Romans 1, Paul mentions that he is not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power
00:30:49.460
of God for salvation for both the Jews and the Gentiles. Now, at the time, as you said, there was a lot of
00:30:58.980
tension between groups. And he's saying, I am not ashamed of the gospel because it's what will save
00:31:05.700
them. It's what they need. And it's sad because I struggle with this. I know that as a black man,
00:31:16.900
I can get away with so much sin in terms of how I'm thinking about this stuff. I can say some horrible
00:31:25.940
things to some white friends. And people will not pursue me as they're saying, hey, brother,
00:31:33.700
you're sinning against this person. You got to repent and reconcile. Unfortunately, I'm seeing
00:31:39.620
so many people on social media now who would think that it's wrong to correct a black person when
00:31:45.380
they're in sin over these issues. But if you're not correcting me because I'm black, that's actually
00:31:51.860
racist. Right. Right. And what I need most is for me to grow more in love with God and more in love
00:31:59.700
with my members. Right. So through all of this, we are failing to love God faithfully and we're failing
00:32:09.940
to love black people faithfully. Because if the gospel and holiness is what's important, which,
00:32:18.500
of course, of course, is what is important. And we're failing to say what many black people need
00:32:23.700
to hear, not just many black people, but also many white people need to hear. If we're not saying
00:32:27.540
these things, it's not love. It's actually hate. Right. It's hate because God is love. And what affirms who
00:32:35.620
God is, biblical theology, is the most loving thing you can affirm. Right. But if you betray that and you
00:32:42.740
embrace worldly philosophies, that's a form of hate, and you're actually then hurting people's
00:32:48.020
souls. Right. And unfortunately, a lot of groups that they posture themselves as Christian groups,
00:32:55.160
and unfortunately, they do exactly what you just said, that, you know, Ephesians, again,
00:33:01.820
talks about letting go of all bitterness and wrath and resentment and malice and anger, obviously,
00:33:07.840
because that's what we're just called to do as Christians, to glorify God, and those things are
00:33:12.120
sin. But also, graciously, those things, letting go of those things relieves us of a burden that
00:33:19.060
crushes us, that makes us unable to love other people and to live a life of freedom and joy.
00:33:24.960
And so when you tell people of any skin color that, hey, hold on to that wrath and that anger and that
00:33:31.360
malice that is actually justified in your case, like you said, that's not loving at all. Not only is that
00:33:37.700
not pointing them to the liberation that Christ offers sinners, but it is also allowing them to
00:33:44.240
be trapped and burdened and to hold on to a weight that they shouldn't be responsible or obligated
00:33:51.940
to carry. And so I just see a lot of unintentional, probably, lack of love from Christians, particularly
00:33:59.360
white Christians, to fellow black Christians, because they've been told that any correction or
00:34:03.780
admonition or encouragement in the Lord is a form of white supremacy. And that's the worst thing that
00:34:08.920
you can, that's the worst thing that you can do, you know?
00:34:12.740
I, one of the most controversial, and it's always surprising to people, one of the most controversial
00:34:18.460
things or articles I ever wrote was I shared a story about how I was walking in a tunnel.
00:34:24.660
As I'm walking in a tunnel, this is a dark tunnel. It's a pretty intimidating tunnel. As I'm walking
00:34:33.720
in that tunnel, there's a young white lady who is walking towards me. And as soon as she sees me,
00:34:41.440
she clutches her purse and she essentially attaches herself. She glues herself to the wall.
00:34:46.800
It's a pretty dirty wall. So you must really want to like avoid me if you're going to be doing this.
00:34:50.420
And she, she does that. And she's just, then she just speeds up way past me. And I, in the beginning,
00:34:58.160
I'm like, oh, this is, you know, here it is again, a white woman being afraid of a black person and all
00:35:03.200
that. And, but then as I keep walking, I'm like, wait a minute, why am I assuming she did this? Because
00:35:10.440
I'm black. If she was a black woman, I wouldn't have thought it was racism. But because she's white,
00:35:19.220
I'm assuming the worst of her. And I'm thinking she's assuming the worst of me because I'm black.
00:35:24.380
I'm, I said, look, she may have been racist, maybe, but all I know for sure is that I'm the
00:35:31.960
one being racist. Because if she wasn't white, I wouldn't think she was racist. Many Christians
00:35:39.700
said, Sam, that's wrong. She is a racist. And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm applying biblical theology
00:35:44.040
here. The Bible says that I have to assume the best of people. I have to consider others
00:35:50.600
as less, as more significant than myself. And when we, when you try to apply this today
00:35:58.680
concerning the racial issues, all of a sudden, when you're again, applying biblical theology,
00:36:05.760
people, many Christians now think you're in sin and that you're in the wrong for doing so.
00:36:10.820
And that says a lot about where we are trending towards right now as a society and as a church.
00:36:16.500
You know, women get the same message pretty often, maybe not as much from reformed circles.
00:36:23.620
But just in general, we get the message that any anger or resentment towards men as a collective
00:36:32.280
or the patriarchy as a collective, whether or not you personally have been mistreated,
00:36:37.760
we're not talking about individual relationships, but just in general and intangibly, any anger that
00:36:43.220
you have towards that is totally justified. Any slander, any kind of unfounded criticism that you
00:36:49.980
have towards this nebulous patriarchy, that is justified. And if a man calls you out in sin,
00:36:55.640
a brother in Christ, well, that is just the patriarchy at work. That is just mansplaining and
00:36:59.920
toxic masculinity. And really, I mean, this just kind of goes to show,
00:37:04.040
this is another example of kind of the effect of critical theory of the oppressed versus the
00:37:10.100
oppressor. If you are told that you belong to a group that has been historically oppressed,
00:37:15.240
you are justified in whatever behavior that you use to push back against your so-called oppressor,
00:37:21.760
whether or not you have actually been oppressed. It's a gospel of grievance that is being preached
00:37:28.140
to so many of these groups. And the gospel of grievance doesn't do anything to actually
00:37:32.660
liberate you. That's the problem. And that's really what, I don't know, it makes me sad. Do you agree
00:37:37.960
with that? Absolutely. It essentially says that you should repay evil for evil. That is what it's
00:37:47.020
saying. Or evil for perceived evil. Exactly. Yes, that's a very well, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned
00:37:56.000
that. Because it's really concerning because, you know, the Bible is very clear on this issue. So
00:38:06.040
no matter what people have done to me or what I think they've done to me, God still calls me to
00:38:12.720
think clearly, to think lovingly towards them. I mentioned to some people that, look, I know that
00:38:20.520
Derek Chauvin, he, you know, he killed, he killed George Floyd in a very, in an unjust manner.
00:38:31.320
Even though I know, again, the videotape shows that, unfortunately, George Floyd was
00:38:36.740
resisting arrest and everything else. But the last, you know, the latter part of the entire
00:38:42.080
altercation or the incidents, you know, he did not react in a very wise manner that ended up leading to
00:38:49.820
George Floyd's death. But I mentioned that, you know, God still calls me to love Derek Chauvin,
00:38:56.300
which means that what I don't know, I can't pretend that I do. So all this right now, the last
00:39:04.340
two, three months, a lot of the destruction happening in America, a lot of the vitriol and
00:39:11.740
the division and all that is stemming primarily not from the fact that George Floyd was killed,
00:39:18.820
not really. The issue is that he was killed because of racism. The idea though is, but there's
00:39:27.700
no even evidence for racism. There isn't any evidence of that. So here we've built, again,
00:39:33.980
a false premise, which has led to very bad solutions. Right. So it's just that if we are not going to be
00:39:45.720
reacting faithfully, if we're not going to be focusing on blessing, it may sound a bit strange,
00:39:53.400
but, you know, bless, I want to bless, I want to bless a Derek Chauvin or anybody who has even done
00:40:01.520
wrong by making sure I'm thinking clear, clearly about that, because then I can love God faithfully.
00:40:08.580
I can love my neighbors faithfully and not be pushing ideologies or false premises that will end
00:40:15.460
up leading to horrible reactions, including riots and everything else. Right. So you and I know and
00:40:23.000
agree on the fact that obviously there are racists that exist in the sense that there are people who
00:40:29.820
hate, which is really the only ism that Jesus talks about is hate that starts in the heart.
00:40:36.800
But people hate based on skin color, people hate based on sex, they might hate based on nationality
00:40:43.340
or religion or something like that. And under the umbrella of hate that is condemned by God,
00:40:47.720
the Bible says, you can't love God and hate your brother. So we know that hatred based on anything,
00:40:52.660
including race, is a sin. And we know that that exists. At one point, it was systemic. Now,
00:40:57.760
some people still say that the legacy of that is here today, but let's maybe not get into all of
00:41:04.520
that and simply ask, what biblically does the Christian do when they see actual racism, when
00:41:12.540
they know that actual racists exist, when maybe they see a system or a practice or a process that
00:41:19.120
is discriminatory or where they see real injustice, for example, like abortion and through Planned
00:41:24.920
Parenthood. How does the Christian react to that in a way that is gospel-centered and that is biblical
00:41:32.020
without taking the tactics and the premises and the ideologies of the world?
00:41:39.680
Yeah. God calls us to—it's one of my favorite texts in the Bible. It's a very simple text, but
00:41:46.060
it's abhor evil or hate evil, love good, and establish justice. We would not have—the West,
00:41:58.740
you know, coming from Ghana, you know, a very poor African country, coming from, you know,
00:42:04.440
Ghana and coming to the West, the influence of biblical theology has been very—I mean,
00:42:12.560
you see that in the West. And I'm saying that because a lot of Christians founded, you know,
00:42:23.080
these Western nations based on Christian principles. Not, of course, perfect principles—not
00:42:27.080
perfect, not perfectly, but it was—the Bible clearly was very much a huge foundation for them.
00:42:33.900
I mention this because, as you know, I'm a pro-life advocate, and the reason why I very much care
00:42:42.420
about that is because I know that Roe v. Wade in America and over here in Canada, abortion is legal
00:42:48.160
and sanctioned. And Planned Parenthood and abortion centers very much target Black pre-born babies.
00:42:55.560
Well, God calls me to hate that, to love pre-born babies and to establish justice. So I respond to that.
00:43:02.740
Right now, my work is—I'm a community liaison, so I'm the one that is, you know, working to speak to pastors
00:43:12.060
and telling them—well, speaking with them as to how to get involved in the pro-life movement,
00:43:17.960
how we can share resources and how we can get their churches educated on this issue and how they can
00:43:23.960
come to the streets with us and go to different—you know, go to schools with us and just share the truth
00:43:30.040
and share God's truth about abortion. And by the grace of God, we've been able to save many lives
00:43:35.320
and change many minds. But we react to injustice. So right now, one of the issues with Black Lives Matter
00:43:43.040
or this critical theory movement and social justice is that you have them repaying evil for evil,
00:43:50.860
and then you have them using oftentimes racist means or unjust means in their mind to tackle unjust systems
00:44:00.580
or unjust laws, which of course is wrong. But you do so peacefully. You do so by listening. You do so
00:44:06.280
carefully. You do so making sure that you have the facts in front of you, that you are not, you know,
00:44:11.220
going to also forget the gospel in light of that. Christ was living in a very—when he was on earth,
00:44:17.780
he was living in a very unjust culture. The Roman Empire was brutally oppressive. And he said certain
00:44:28.160
things that we know—he, of course, knew that the Romans were oppressive. We know that. And yet his
00:44:34.080
focus was the gospel. And we can't forget that, right? And also, if you live in this culture, you are going
00:44:40.880
to have some form of injustice against you, either systemically or just relationally. But you react to
00:44:50.660
that by being patient, by, of course, saying, hey, brother, sister, or your neighbor, you've sinned,
00:44:56.960
you've done this, and let's talk about why that's wrong, and let's tell you the solution against that
00:45:02.540
Yes. And you gave such a perfect picture of how to fight an injustice like abortion with the gospel,
00:45:12.280
but you're also going out there, you're changing people's minds, and you're sharing the gospel,
00:45:17.360
but you're also talking about the brutal reality of what abortion is and why pre-born babies do matter
00:45:22.800
and why they should be saved. In the same way, if someone, for example, they see something that is a
00:45:30.420
tangible injustice in regards to discrimination against a black person or discrimination against
00:45:36.140
any other kind of person, that is a tangible injustice, there is the possibility, of course,
00:45:42.900
and the responsibility, I would say, to preach the gospel into that and to do work in accordance to
00:45:50.640
what the Bible says. Now, that's very different than this kind of nebulous idea of so-called doing
00:45:54.720
the work of anti-racism, which is basically an equivalent to just saying, oh, well, we need socialism,
00:45:59.620
and that is how we are going to make everyone equal, and we need reparations and all of that.
00:46:04.180
There is a way to speak up and to say, hey, you know, this practice is oppressive against this one
00:46:10.840
group of people, this socioeconomic class or immigrants or whatever it is. I think the important
00:46:15.900
thing is that we are getting our definition of what justice is from the Bible. God's justice is
00:46:23.160
impartial, so it doesn't show partiality to the great or to the poor, to one skin color or another.
00:46:29.240
It is direct. It is individual. It is fair. And so we apply God's principles of justice to the
00:46:37.460
things that we care about and how we go about fighting against them. And we also make sure
00:46:42.960
that the things that we are told are injustices here are actual injustices. So looking at basic
00:46:48.540
data, basic facts to see if something is actually true, that does actually matter.
00:46:55.580
I think a lot of times we unfortunately, what we hear an example of systemic racism is just looking
00:47:02.880
at disparities between two groups and attributing that, as you have explained, to racism. While the
00:47:08.720
Christian is responsible for, as you articulated so well, saying, but is that due to that? Do I know
00:47:15.800
that? Or are there other policies in place? For example, lack of school choice or unconditional welfare?
00:47:22.060
Or are the politicians in these cities, predominantly minority cities, are they not doing their jobs
00:47:28.660
well? Do they have a corrupt prosecutor, a corrupt mayor? And so it is, we are beholden to the truth
00:47:36.500
and to facts and to looking at actual policies and prescriptions.
00:47:40.200
Yes. I'm so glad you mentioned that because the whole premise for systemic racism today,
00:47:45.980
or for the perceptions of injustice against Black people in our societies today is based on
00:47:51.600
disparities. But there are major problems that comes with that. If we believe that, then we have
00:47:58.820
to believe, as many anti-racists are forced to believe today because of their ideology, that we live in a
00:48:05.860
more racist society today than going back to the, how did the civil rights movement in the 60s?
00:48:13.020
Which many of them have said this, that we live in a much more sinister, more covert, but more sinister
00:48:19.000
and more, you know, a worse oppression against Black people today than before. Why? Because the
00:48:25.720
disparities today are worse now than they were 50 years ago. Right? So if we believe that, then we have
00:48:33.760
to, if we believe that disparities are evidence for racism or systemic racism. Now, of course,
00:48:40.460
that can be true, but, but not independently. So, right. Right. You can have a system that is unjust
00:48:49.100
that will lead to disparities like slavery segregation, of course. Right. But disparities on their own do not
00:48:54.840
prove discrimination. And I know you're a big fan of Thomas Sowell. So, um, we know he wrote that book,
00:49:00.500
that, you know, that brilliant book on disparities and discrimination. Yes. But, um, but on top of that,
00:49:06.980
you also have major issues theologically as well.
00:49:10.460
And so essentially God was the, was, you know, was, was the king of ancient, ancient Israel,
00:49:18.140
the Mosaic law that, you know, that God, you know, the law that God gave to the, uh, the ancient,
00:49:24.040
um, you know, Jews, uh, through Moses, there was no provision for ending disparities, none whatsoever.
00:49:32.100
Hmm. If we're saying that disparities is evidence for systemic racism, that we're saying God,
00:49:39.780
God's law is systemically racist or systemically oppressive against some of the groups, some of the
00:49:46.800
tribes in Israel that, but, but, you know, that for a fact would have been, um, would have been also
00:49:54.240
been, you know, this would have had, would have been, I guess, on the wrong end of disparities as
00:49:58.560
well. Also, you have the parable of the talents where, uh, Christ shares the example of the parable
00:50:04.320
of talents. And he talks about how there was a slave, there was a slave owner who gave his slaves,
00:50:09.760
um, he gave one five talents, which is essentially money for them to steal it over. And he gave another
00:50:15.880
one, two talents to be another one, one talent in the parable. Just going to keep it short in the
00:50:21.660
parable, God, Christ does not suggest disparities of talent is wrong. Not at all. In fact, the third
00:50:29.600
person who has the one talents who ends up bearing it and not being fruitful over it, when he, he ends
00:50:35.620
up complaining essentially over it, Christ rebukes that person because they're comparing their gifts.
00:50:45.460
Uh, they're comparing other people's gifts and comparing, and he's saying that, well, essentially
00:50:49.020
it's not fair. And I think that you are a wicked person for giving me this one talent. So I didn't
00:50:54.100
think anything of it. The point is disparities are not evidence for anything. Right. And when we start
00:51:01.800
thinking that way, we get into big trouble. And of course, historically, today, there is no society
00:51:08.540
today that does not have racial disparities, even as Thomas Sowell has said to even in families, you're
00:51:15.380
going to have, you know, with the same parents, same upbringing, everything else, you will have
00:51:19.680
disparities amongst the children in that family. And if you believe also that disparities are strictly
00:51:26.420
evidence for systemic racism, then what's the solution? What is it? I've asked many people,
00:51:33.160
how do you overcome systemic racism? When will you believe it's over? They all, they can't answer
00:51:39.560
that. Right. Because if, if you think it can only be, if you think that you can only defeat, um,
00:51:46.160
systemic racism, if you have parody, then there's no hope because that will never happen. But then the
00:51:52.820
only attempt, the only way to end it, of course, is where we go back to the wrong premise and the
00:51:58.380
wrong solution, where then the only solution then in their mind is socialism. Right. Because then the
00:52:04.000
attempt is then you have perfect equality of outcome, which never happens, of course, because
00:52:08.680
in socialism, it will always lead to a political elite that will then oppress the, you know, everybody
00:52:14.360
else who's equally poor. Right. As you see right now in Venezuela, the whole nation is essentially
00:52:19.280
equally poor, but the political elites are feeding, you know, are doing a good job of eating, um, you
00:52:24.720
know, um, very well for themselves. Right. Right. It's, they believe in redistributing the power in the
00:52:32.340
capital from the group that is traditionally known as the oppressor to the groups that are traditionally
00:52:38.900
known as the oppressed, whether or not the people in the oppressor group have actually been oppressors
00:52:44.780
and whether or not the people in the oppressed group have actually been oppressed. So along that
00:52:51.440
kind of thinking, the kind of thinking that says that all white people, no matter their station in
00:52:56.680
life, are inherently more privileged than all non-white people with that kind of mentality and
00:53:03.560
the mentality that says you have to have equal outcomes, you have to force equal outcomes, basically
00:53:09.280
taking everyone down to, it has to be, and this is not a racial statement, just in general,
00:53:14.340
you would have to take everyone down as Thomas Sowell says to the lowest common denominator. It's
00:53:19.640
always equality downward. It's never equality upward. And in that kind of thinking, you have
00:53:26.440
the poor white person from Appalachia who is told that he has more privilege than Oprah Winfrey, the only
00:53:32.420
female or one of the only female black billionaires in the world who was raised from poverty and of much
00:53:38.420
more racist America and through hard work has become a billionaire. We are told that the
00:53:44.280
poor white child living in a trailer without parents has more privilege and has to redistribute
00:53:51.080
that privilege in that wealth and capital equity, whatever it is, to someone like Kanye West or to
00:53:56.340
someone like Oprah Winfrey or to someone like Jay-Z. And that is the only solution that a lot of these
00:54:02.740
so-called anti-racists have to making everything equal. That is not God's definition of justice.
00:54:09.660
Now, I do want to clarify, and I want to see if you agree with this, where there is disparity
00:54:14.060
based on oppression, where we can look at something and say, hey, this is due to oppression. For
00:54:20.080
example, you gave good examples of Jim Crow and of slavery, obviously leading to disparities because
00:54:26.180
of discrimination, because of oppression, and that was wrong and unjust. But if that exists anywhere
00:54:30.900
today, for example, I think a good example of that is the lack of school choice, unfortunately,
00:54:36.420
in a lot of poor black communities. And so they're forced to go to a school that isn't necessarily
00:54:42.800
meeting their needs. That to me is a form of systemic injustice that disproportionately affects
00:54:49.660
black people. I do believe that Christians should be working for equity in that way so parents can,
00:54:57.720
you know, do what's best for their child. Do you agree with that? Or am I just kind of taking on my
00:55:02.600
own form of social justice? No, I absolutely agree with that. I think one of the ironies of our
00:55:09.720
society today is that you have men like Frederick Douglass, the abolitionists, where they advocated
00:55:14.540
for liberty. Today, you have social justice groups who are advocating for control of black people.
00:55:21.820
Right. It's a it's a it's a it's a bizarre world we live in where we should have because the biggest
00:55:32.540
problem for black people throughout black American black for black Americans throughout history has
00:55:37.300
been the government and the government not giving black people liberty. So why do we then want these
00:55:43.140
teacher unions and the government to be controlling and forcing parents and their kids to not be able to
00:55:49.300
choose for themselves where they want to be going to school? So school choice is very crucial as you as you
00:55:55.380
know, as well to school, you know, children who go to, you know, who go to, you know, who are not in that
00:56:02.320
public school system where they don't have any control. They don't do as well as as kids who are going to
00:56:07.700
these charter schools. Right. So that's very clear example that we don't care as a society or as or at least the
00:56:14.700
people who advocate against school choice. They don't the children's good isn't the benefit there.
00:56:21.340
The benefit is really unfortunately on the district unions who end up receiving so much money. I know
00:56:26.240
many of them complain about not receiving a lot of funding, but receive so much funding, but they're
00:56:29.840
not actually putting it on the children. They're just putting it on several other means.
00:56:34.960
Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Last question. You talked about in the beginning of this conversation,
00:56:40.760
how speaking about these things has unfortunately led to you losing friends. I can relate to that,
00:56:48.280
and I know a lot of people listening to this can relate to that, or at least they're afraid if they
00:56:52.340
do stand up and say some of the things that you just said that they are going to lose friends.
00:56:57.240
What is your encouragement and your advice to Christians in that same position?
00:57:02.020
Even the only sinless person in this world lost friends. That's Christ, right? Not only did he lose
00:57:16.020
friends, he lost his life because of the truth. Now, of course, I don't want to make any, you know,
00:57:24.440
we are not sinless. We are not God. We are not the savior of the world. But the truth is that if
00:57:31.800
you are going to be a faithful follower of Christ, if you are going to teach truth, if you're going to
00:57:42.760
teach truth, you're going to be saying unpopular things and offensive things, which will lead to
00:57:48.840
losing friends. But yet you will win so many people to difficult theology and really to loving their
00:57:57.720
neighbors. Because that's the, that's the thing here. I want to try and help people love their
00:58:04.140
neighbors. And I want to try and grow in loving my neighbors more. And if you, if you refuse to teach
00:58:12.180
the truth because you're afraid of the consequences, then we get right back to one of the things that
00:58:19.220
I've learned a lot through reading history and reading why so many people were quiet during the
00:58:25.640
civil rights movement or during the slave trade is because they were afraid of the consequences
00:58:30.140
of speaking out against slavery and segregation. We think, how could they do that? How, how could
00:58:39.100
they be quiet? Well, it's the same reason why we're quiet. It's the same reason why we're afraid
00:58:43.280
because they will lose friends because they will lose families. But my trust is that my faith is
00:58:49.140
and that I will never lose my savior. I'll never lose Christ. And he's my best friend by the grace,
00:58:54.560
you know, by his grace. So teach the truth. We lose friends. Yes, but you never lose Christ.
00:59:01.540
And by doing so, you never lose the truth will, which will help society. And especially in the
00:59:06.280
media, it will help your, you love your neighbors more. And what a relief too, that as we see so much
00:59:12.740
chaos and confusion waging in America, where people's definitions of justice and what is right
00:59:20.140
and what is wrong changes on a daily basis, just according to people's social whim and what the
00:59:25.500
outrage mob says and their solutions are either, they're both never ending and non-existent. They're
00:59:32.920
very elusive and intangible. Like what a relief it is for Christians that we have the ability to stand
00:59:39.940
on the solid rock of Jesus Christ, who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And we have the
00:59:45.340
word of God, which is our objective source of truth and defines justice, defines what hope looks like,
00:59:51.000
what salvation looks like, what loving your neighbor looks like. And we have a gospel that tears down the
00:59:57.340
dividing walls of hostility between brothers and sisters in Christ. And so there's no reason for
01:00:02.760
Christians to apologize for the word of God, to apologize for the truth. We have a solid rock on which we
01:00:09.320
are standing. The rest of the world is standing on sinking sand, and it might look like they're
01:00:14.080
building something right now, but it won't last past the storm. And so that's something that I think
01:00:20.060
Christians can look forward to. Thank you so much for coming on my show. This was such an edifying
01:00:26.760
conversation, and you just have such a gentle and persistent and strong way of explaining things.
01:00:33.520
I know a lot of people are going to be blessed by this conversation. Can you tell everyone
01:00:37.500
where they can find you and follow you? Yes. People can, you know, find me on, well, first,
01:00:45.340
thank you so much for having me on. Of course. I, I'm, it's a huge honor. I'm a big fan of the show,
01:00:51.840
and it's a huge privilege. I know there's white privilege, but I feel very privileged to be on the
01:00:56.540
show. Well, thank you. It's a relatable privilege. But yeah, they can find me at slow2write.com,
01:01:03.740
that's my blog. And they can find me on social media too, on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram
01:01:08.900
as slow2write. They can also find me on Patreon if they choose to want to support me on, as also
01:01:14.220
slow2write. And then also they can look for the organization that I look for, which is CCBR or our
01:01:19.320
website endthekilling.ca, endthekilling.ca. And they can choose to support what we're doing here in
01:01:26.280
Canada. You know, I think a lot of Americans may not know this, but Canada is the only, essentially
01:01:31.200
really the only nation in the world. Next to, I suppose, are the two communist nations in North
01:01:36.360
Korea and China who have no laws at all against abortion. So abortion is completely, I know you
01:01:41.700
guys have had some states recently who have been expanding abortion to make it completely legal
01:01:48.300
towards the end of the pregnancy. And it's been the case here for the last 40 years or 30 years,
01:01:55.500
I should say. So yeah, so just, you know, if you choose to want to either be praying for us or
01:02:01.640
supporting us, endthekilling.ca, please do so. Well, thank you so much. This was an awesome
01:02:07.820
conversation and I will see you on Twitter. Thank you.