Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 28, 2020


Ep 294 ｜ Leaving Critical Race Theory For Biblical Unity ｜ Guest： Monique Duson


Episode Stats

Length

53 minutes

Words per Minute

170.11598

Word Count

9,113

Sentence Count

513

Misogynist Sentences

7

Hate Speech Sentences

18


Summary

In this episode of Relatable, Allie interviews Monique Dusson, founder of the Center for Biblical Unity, a ministry that advocates for unity within the church from a historically Christian or biblical perspective. In this episode, we discuss critical theory and race theory, and why they are so incongruent with Christianity.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:12.740 I'm so excited about the conversation that we are about to have today about critical
00:00:17.100 theory and critical race theory, what these worldviews are and why they're incongruent
00:00:21.760 with Christianity.
00:00:23.100 If you have not listened to my conversation with Neil Shenvey about critical theory, I
00:00:28.300 highly recommend you do that.
00:00:29.780 He gives a very thorough explanation of what it is, but today we expound upon that with
00:00:35.100 a different interviewee and we talk about why the gospel contradicts in such a beautiful
00:00:40.120 and liberating way the worldview and the propositions of critical theory.
00:00:45.900 And we talk about how we as Christians can combat it with the truth of God's word.
00:00:50.520 Before we get into the conversation, I want to remind you guys, you're not enough and
00:00:54.180 that's okay, escaping the toxic culture of self-love.
00:00:57.280 Thank you so much to everyone who's bought the book.
00:00:59.120 You can buy the audio book, you can buy the ebook, or you can buy this wherever you get
00:01:04.120 your books.
00:01:04.620 Just go to AllieBethStuckey.com book and you can see all the places where you can purchase
00:01:10.020 online.
00:01:11.080 Also, you can buy it at Barnes & Noble, your local bookstore.
00:01:15.080 Might be available at your public library as well.
00:01:18.580 But it goes through, if you don't already know, if you're new to the podcast, it goes through
00:01:22.100 five myths that young women are fed today in this culture of self-love.
00:01:26.740 You're perfect the way you are.
00:01:27.820 You can't love other people until you love yourself.
00:01:30.080 You determine your own truth.
00:01:31.480 We talk about where these lies show up and then why they're damaging.
00:01:35.960 And then we combat them with truth and with the truth of God's word.
00:01:40.360 And so many of you have reached out to me.
00:01:42.120 It's just meant so much to me how much this book has meant to you guys who have read it.
00:01:47.820 So thank you so much.
00:01:48.600 If you've read the book, please leave a five-star review on Amazon.
00:01:52.000 That would just mean so much to me.
00:01:54.180 And make sure that you join Book Club with Allie Stuckey on Facebook.
00:01:58.440 If you are a woman, that's Women's Book Club with Allie Stuckey on Facebook.
00:02:01.860 We are going through the book together.
00:02:04.660 Okay.
00:02:05.100 Without further ado, Monique, thank you so much for joining me.
00:02:10.300 Thanks so much for having me.
00:02:12.000 Yes.
00:02:12.580 Can you tell everyone who may not be familiar who you are and what you do?
00:02:17.520 Well, my name is Monique Dusson, and I'm the founder of the Center for Biblical Unity.
00:02:21.440 We are a ministry that specifically advocates for unity within the church from a historically
00:02:27.960 Christian or biblical perspective.
00:02:30.720 So we look back at the first 300 years of the church, the early church.
00:02:35.100 How did the early church handle issues of what was then known as partiality and favoritism?
00:02:40.860 How did they handle those kind of issues?
00:02:42.520 How did they handle issues of justice?
00:02:44.380 And we bring that into our current situation and look at, like, how should we be doing justice?
00:02:49.480 How should we be treating issues of racism or partiality in the church today, as opposed
00:02:55.180 to the secular framework critical race theory?
00:02:58.720 And what inspired you to begin this endeavor?
00:03:02.080 Well, I actually upheld the worldview of critical race theory for nearly 20 years.
00:03:09.000 Wow.
00:03:09.380 And after having conversations with my friend Krista Bontrager, who's also my ministry partner
00:03:14.900 and an intern at work, and then the Lord's work in my own heart, things just started to
00:03:21.620 fall in place.
00:03:22.220 So I went to work and I had an intern and she came to work crying about how students of
00:03:27.000 color were treating her and talking about her whiteness and her white privilege and her
00:03:30.700 white fragility and that she shouldn't speak because she's white and she's only speaking
00:03:35.780 from a place of white privilege.
00:03:38.100 And then in having conversations with Krista, and she's a theologian, and just being to challenge
00:03:44.460 the way that I thought about scripture.
00:03:45.940 You know, where do you get this idea from scripture and how do you look at that in comparison to
00:03:53.320 this scripture?
00:03:54.000 Like, you can't just take one scripture out of the Bible and say, well, this is my whole
00:03:57.640 definition for upholding this worldview.
00:04:00.080 So it was mainly those two people and a lot of conversations with the Lord about God.
00:04:06.360 You know, I care a lot about justice.
00:04:10.040 Why isn't this meshing up?
00:04:11.920 Why are people so angry if we're doing your work?
00:04:14.400 And he just began to take me through scripture and take me back.
00:04:19.520 And yeah, from there, it was it was just an unfolding of a paradigm.
00:04:25.500 We've had Neil Shenvey on this podcast before, so we've talked pretty thoroughly about critical
00:04:30.180 theory, but there are a lot of people who maybe didn't listen to that episode and they
00:04:34.760 have no idea what we're talking about when we say critical race theory.
00:04:38.120 So can you break that down for us?
00:04:40.420 Yes.
00:04:40.780 In the simplest of terms, critical race theory is just a look at who are the oppressed and
00:04:46.240 who are the oppressors within society based on race and how do we redistribute the power?
00:04:53.780 OK, gotcha.
00:04:55.040 Power being wealth or economics, those kind of things.
00:04:58.760 And were you raised a Christian?
00:05:00.100 I kind of half and half.
00:05:04.180 So my early childhood, my grandmother took me to church, but that wasn't like my own relationship.
00:05:09.060 It wasn't until I was about 16 that I went.
00:05:13.400 My friend from high school invited me to go to youth group.
00:05:15.860 And that's where I became completely vested within Christianity.
00:05:20.660 I started my own relationship with the Lord.
00:05:23.000 And from the time I was 16 onward, yes, I have.
00:05:27.960 And how did you, after that, kind of get sucked into what you have called, you call yourself
00:05:33.800 an ex-SJW Christian who obviously had a critical theory worldview.
00:05:39.380 How did you get pushed into that perspective in that world?
00:05:42.760 I think that I grew up in South L.A. and just hearing a lot of stuff, it just seemed like
00:05:49.320 that was this is the way that we talk and this is what must be true.
00:05:54.140 So looking at things like a glass ceiling or the idea that, you know, blacks and people
00:06:00.180 of color will always have some form of poverty because of how white people are, quote unquote.
00:06:07.620 You know, these were the ideas and things that were talked about from my elementary classroom
00:06:13.980 to my friends' homes to my own home.
00:06:17.080 And so when I went away to university, I went to a small Christian university out here.
00:06:22.440 And when I studied sociology, I was introduced to the social theories.
00:06:27.040 Critical race theory being a social theory and coming down the line from critical theory
00:06:32.160 and Marxism, I was introduced to it and my professors really just made it seem like it was true.
00:06:41.180 Like, this is the way that you look at the world.
00:06:43.220 This is the explanation for our injustices, for our inequities.
00:06:50.500 It is the idea that there's, you know, what we would call today whiteness or white privilege.
00:06:56.940 And, you know, the way that we, the way that we counter these things is by being an anti-racist.
00:07:03.240 So it is by speaking out.
00:07:05.160 It's by reading these books.
00:07:06.600 It's by doing this work.
00:07:08.560 And so I spent a lot of my time in, in homeless services and working with youth.
00:07:15.900 And so between those things, it was to empower people of color, empower those who were impoverished
00:07:23.160 and living in poverty.
00:07:24.900 How do we help to, to elevate their voice and give them a pathway out of that?
00:07:30.700 And did you think, apparently you did at the time, that critical race theory, what you
00:07:36.540 just described is completely congruent with Christianity.
00:07:40.860 What are, what were some of the messages or the ideas that helped you think that, okay,
00:07:45.500 you know, this is the way that God wants me to perceive justice and to pursue justice,
00:07:50.880 kind of wetting the Bible with this critical race theory.
00:07:55.640 How did you come to be convinced of that?
00:07:58.740 Well, I think that there's a redefinition of terms and even almost like the sleight of hand
00:08:04.200 kind of thing.
00:08:04.800 So in Micah, where it says that we should do justice, well, we have within critical race
00:08:09.700 theory and within social justice, a completely different idea of what's just equal treatment
00:08:16.080 of all people.
00:08:17.340 Yes.
00:08:17.660 That is, that's something that I believe in because everyone is created within the Christian
00:08:22.840 worldview with equal dignity, value, and worth.
00:08:25.260 We all are image bearers of God.
00:08:27.660 Now, when I look at how people should be treated and wanting inclusivity and all the voices to
00:08:33.880 come to the table, like these are things that I believe Christians could also uphold.
00:08:38.380 Like we don't want to necessarily leave someone out intentionally and show favoritism.
00:08:43.500 We don't want to show favoritism to the rich and we don't want to show it to the poor.
00:08:47.800 But that conversation is easily brought into things like religion.
00:08:53.260 So religious minorities, and how do I have inclusion with a religious minority?
00:09:00.420 So what is, and when we thread that out, what does that really mean?
00:09:03.680 Does that mean that I'm willing to have an imam in the pulpit?
00:09:06.660 Or when we look at the LGBTQ situation, does that mean when we speak about inclusivity and
00:09:13.040 having all the voices at the table that we are now willing to have someone within LGBTQ
00:09:18.780 to preach on a Sunday morning because we are being inclusive?
00:09:23.880 There are questions that are asked within social justice.
00:09:27.700 Like, well, you know, we want to be inclusive of all people.
00:09:30.180 We don't want to leave anyone out.
00:09:31.500 So these things should also be allowed.
00:09:35.180 OK, gotcha.
00:09:36.680 And correct me if I'm wrong.
00:09:38.860 Critical race theory, like you explained, it's chiefly concerned with power dynamics.
00:09:43.520 So it is looking at the world and basically everything in the world, every structure, every
00:09:48.840 interaction through the lens of the oppressed versus the oppressor.
00:09:52.760 And how you assign those labels, the oppressed versus the oppressor, depends on things like
00:09:59.520 skin color, on things like sexual orientation, on things like religion.
00:10:03.340 I guess specifically in critical race theory, it depends just strictly on your melanin count.
00:10:09.200 But also, I think I think it also depends on you can be, for example, a black person who
00:10:18.080 a critical race theorist would say is not a real black person because you are internalizing
00:10:23.100 white supremacy by repeating the ideas of the oppressor.
00:10:29.340 Right.
00:10:30.100 Is that is that correct?
00:10:31.640 That's kind of that perspective is.
00:10:34.000 OK, yes.
00:10:34.740 So, yeah, go ahead.
00:10:35.940 Sorry.
00:10:36.400 Go ahead.
00:10:37.420 No, no, please further expound upon that and kind of clarify or correct anything that I
00:10:42.460 got wrong, just so people really understand, like, this is this is the perspective and
00:10:47.060 tell us how it's manifesting itself as well.
00:10:49.540 So right now within critical race theory, what you hear a lot of is elevate black voices,
00:10:55.840 but it's very tribalistic.
00:10:58.300 The voices that you want to elevate are the ones who sound like you if they don't sound
00:11:04.240 like you.
00:11:05.060 So if you're you have a voice like mine that says, hey, we should not adopt a secular framework
00:11:10.100 in the church.
00:11:10.980 And that critical race theory is extremely divisive.
00:11:13.720 It doesn't end in unity.
00:11:15.000 Then my voice would be considered like a pre and counter phase.
00:11:18.680 I haven't come into the actuality and the understanding of my own oppression.
00:11:23.680 I am actually blinded by white supremacy or whiteness, and I am now participating or using
00:11:30.300 my voice on behalf of an oppressive system.
00:11:33.700 OK, and who gets to decide who decides what black voices to elevate?
00:11:39.420 Like, is there a person behind this all saying, OK, these are these are the black voices that
00:11:44.760 we're going to elevate?
00:11:45.680 And these are the kinds of ideas that we're not like.
00:11:47.820 I'm sure that you saw that the museum in D.C. for African-American history and culture,
00:11:52.980 they had a whole page on their website on whiteness that said whiteness is being punctual.
00:11:58.700 Whiteness is being organized, caring about things like hard work and the nuclear family.
00:12:03.940 Who decides that that is whiteness and therefore that is oppressive and wrong and Marxism and
00:12:10.680 leftism and basically communism in some ways is blackness?
00:12:14.480 Where did that come from?
00:12:15.900 I have no idea.
00:12:17.560 I don't know who like the black judge is, who's the one who says this is whiteness versus blackness.
00:12:23.320 I do not know.
00:12:24.780 I just know that it almost seems like consensus.
00:12:28.440 And so as as the tribe moves forward, then the tribe decides, well, we don't want this because
00:12:37.380 this doesn't reflect us or anything that has to do with slavery is automatically a part of
00:12:45.560 a white system.
00:12:46.800 Anything that goes against the or stands for, I'm sorry, the hegemony or the hegemonic power,
00:12:53.660 or those in leadership and those with wealth, if if my voice seems to affirm that, then I am
00:13:01.820 definitely going against the tribal rhetoric of the community of the left or the community of
00:13:09.900 critical race theory and social justice.
00:13:13.040 And why is this perspective so attractive to so many people?
00:13:20.020 I mean, it just it seems like a lot of young people of all shades of melanin are picking
00:13:25.720 this up in college and they are just eating it up.
00:13:28.780 Why do you think that is?
00:13:30.800 Well, I think that a number of universities are just indoctrinating young people with this
00:13:35.720 and saying that this is right.
00:13:37.600 Like when I was in university, this is where I learned all the tenets and the statistics.
00:13:43.140 And it was told I was told this is right.
00:13:45.440 And I think when you're impressionable and you want to do good and this is what you're
00:13:50.820 told is right, you latch on to it.
00:13:54.180 The the voice of things like Black Lives Matter is very loud right now.
00:14:00.020 They seem to be making moves within society to say, hey, you know, racism is wrong.
00:14:06.560 Now, especially within the Christian framework, I want to and this is, again, my own story
00:14:12.560 of I want to stand for justice.
00:14:15.300 The Lord tells us that we should do justice.
00:14:18.020 What is the framework to do that?
00:14:20.140 If my heart is young and impressionable, especially and I'm not fully investigating the word, then
00:14:28.160 it's it's easy to get wrapped up into it because you're well-meaning.
00:14:33.500 Right, right.
00:14:34.500 I think that it has to do with indoctrination.
00:14:37.140 It has to do with social bullying.
00:14:39.320 I mean, I certainly knew a lot of Christians that posted the black square with hashtag Black
00:14:43.740 Lives Matter on that day.
00:14:45.200 And, you know, I think that they were well-intentioned, but I think that there was probably a lack of
00:14:50.440 research there to say, OK, who is driving the bandwagon that I am on right now and who
00:14:55.940 is defining justice?
00:14:57.280 We've got a lot of raised fists in the name of justice right now and a million different
00:15:01.540 definitions of what that means.
00:15:03.240 So does justice mean redistribution?
00:15:06.340 Does it mean retribution?
00:15:07.940 Does it mean revenge?
00:15:09.200 Does it mean getting back at white people for something that their ancestors did?
00:15:13.800 What does justice actually mean?
00:15:16.380 And it seems like people recite Micah 6, 8, which you just did.
00:15:20.400 They say do justice, but they don't look at something like Exodus 23 that talks about,
00:15:26.160 hey, you don't you don't show partiality towards the poor man.
00:15:29.280 You don't show the partiality towards the rich man either.
00:15:31.920 I think that's in Leviticus.
00:15:33.580 And you don't spread a false report.
00:15:35.900 You don't join hands with the many to spread a false report about someone and to try to
00:15:42.620 make someone seem guilty when they're not.
00:15:44.920 And yet that seems to be the entire movement of Black Lives Matter and a lot of these leftist
00:15:50.220 revolutionaries to spin a narrative, whether it's based on fact or not.
00:15:54.440 And a lot of Christians are doing it in the name of Micah 6, 8.
00:15:58.060 So what do you say to those people who seem to be very confused?
00:16:03.340 I think exactly what you just did.
00:16:05.240 You put forth other scripture and you ask them, well, what do you do in light of this?
00:16:09.460 What do you do with things like James that says that you shouldn't, considering something
00:16:15.180 like microaggressions, that you shouldn't just put motive to someone's heart?
00:16:19.100 How do you know that this was racist without evidence, without going to the person specifically?
00:16:26.520 There's no room right now in social justice or critical race theory to actually go to
00:16:31.760 someone and have the conversation.
00:16:33.740 There's no room for forgiveness.
00:16:35.760 What do you do with Matthew 18, where it says that we should be offering our forgiveness?
00:16:40.600 In critical race theory or especially social justice, you get the idea of Black forgiveness.
00:16:45.220 And so I'm not sure if you remember that incident with Botham Jean.
00:16:49.060 He was, I think it was Botham who was actually killed in his apartment by the white police officer.
00:16:55.140 His brother hugged the police officer in the courtroom and social media went crazy because
00:17:01.800 of this idea of Black forgiveness.
00:17:04.220 We don't offer our forgiveness so quickly.
00:17:07.500 People need to work for our forgiveness.
00:17:09.440 That's antithetical to the scripture.
00:17:11.700 We don't live like that.
00:17:12.960 I should be giving my forgiveness with, with, with regularity.
00:17:18.340 Like I should be looking like, how can I forgive and continue in relationship with someone as
00:17:24.460 opposed to withholding it?
00:17:26.820 Right.
00:17:27.000 There's, um, you know, James who in the book of James, where it talks about, um, not showing
00:17:32.480 favoritism and not, you know, regarding one over the other.
00:17:36.500 How do we treat each other?
00:17:37.940 These things are questions that we should be asking.
00:17:41.200 How do you reconcile these actions with the word of God?
00:17:47.380 Now, if, if they're not a Christian, then we don't have that common ground, but we can,
00:17:52.640 I believe social justice warriors are extremely concerned with the dignity of humanity, the
00:17:58.920 dignity of people.
00:17:59.680 So we can ask the question, how is this affirming someone's dignity?
00:18:03.460 Now they'll, they'll say, well, you know, I'm fighting for people of color.
00:18:07.340 I'm fighting, fighting for marginalized.
00:18:08.800 Great.
00:18:09.280 I can be with you on speaking out against those things, but how is this impacting the individual
00:18:14.440 whose shop you just broke in the, the shop you just looted?
00:18:18.220 How does that affirm the dignity, value, and worth of another person?
00:18:23.280 Because it's, because CRT is a secular humanist framework.
00:18:27.020 They're not going to believe in, you know, the things that we believe in, but how does
00:18:30.760 this affirm their dignity?
00:18:32.160 Right.
00:18:32.880 And ask questions from there.
00:18:34.900 Yes, absolutely.
00:18:36.180 And I think that that goes back to that different definition of justice.
00:18:42.080 The critical race theory, I would say they believe in a collectivist justice.
00:18:47.180 And so they see the whole town of Kenosha, for example, as implicit in what happened to
00:18:53.060 Jacob Blake, whereas biblical justice is direct.
00:18:56.800 It's proportionate.
00:18:57.620 It waits for the facts.
00:18:58.780 You don't, you can't even accuse someone based on one witness.
00:19:01.540 You have to have multiple witnesses.
00:19:03.160 There's due process that God advocates for.
00:19:06.480 That is biblical justice.
00:19:07.900 It's compassionate justice.
00:19:09.280 It doesn't say that we shouldn't punish the wrongdoer, but that we should do it in
00:19:12.700 the right way.
00:19:13.880 And then collectivist justice says, well, I'm going to go scorched earth because of
00:19:19.120 either not really what happened, but what I believe happened.
00:19:21.960 I'm going to ascribe motives based on not reality, but critical race theory, which says
00:19:26.460 that police, no matter what, are guilty because they are agents of the bourgeois.
00:19:32.400 It's all very, it's all very confusing.
00:19:34.960 It's all very complex.
00:19:36.760 But I think that you're absolutely right.
00:19:39.120 When we point people to scripture and we point them to examples of biblical justice, it's
00:19:43.760 very obvious that critical race theory and a biblical worldview, they just don't coincide.
00:19:51.920 Do you think that's an okay and accurate way to put that?
00:19:56.080 Yeah, definitely.
00:19:57.040 I want to go back to something you just said about biblical justice.
00:20:00.240 Again, my ministry partner, Krista, she did this whole thing on justice.
00:20:03.900 And something that I didn't realize was that there is actually justice in ways that we
00:20:09.740 walk out with the accused or the guilty party.
00:20:13.540 There has to be justice for the victim.
00:20:17.160 And then also for those who are accused of being the victimizer.
00:20:21.660 So if a police officer is accused of racism or accused of, you know, shooting someone, we
00:20:28.620 can't go and immediately just, you know, without evidence, condemn them.
00:20:34.920 Biblically, how do we stand with the accused?
00:20:38.520 And this isn't like, this isn't something that I could hardly get behind, you know, when I
00:20:43.240 first was walking out of this worldview, but scripture says there is, there's a way that
00:20:49.120 we do justice with the accused that does not bring some kind of immediate condemnation
00:20:55.660 to them.
00:20:56.300 There has to be witnesses.
00:20:58.000 There has to be evidence.
00:20:59.660 Right.
00:21:00.000 And I don't believe that many Christians are, you know, considering that right now, back
00:21:06.460 to, to your question of, is this, you know, something that's compatible with the Christian
00:21:10.100 worldview?
00:21:10.460 I do not believe that a secular humanist framework can be compatible with the Christian worldview.
00:21:16.700 I honestly believe that, you know, God has given us all that we need for life and godliness.
00:21:22.000 And so as we look in the scriptures, we will find the things that we need to move forward
00:21:26.900 that don't include things like rioting or, you know, stealing or bearing false witness.
00:21:32.240 It doesn't include those things.
00:21:34.820 What's his name now?
00:21:36.640 Sean King.
00:21:37.420 This is a perfect example of bearing false witness.
00:21:41.040 He's willing now because they won't release the name of the officer to the, who, who shot
00:21:46.980 Jacob Blake.
00:21:48.340 He's, he's, I'm just going to start listing off names that would bear false witness potentially
00:21:54.660 and, and, you know, put other people in harm's way.
00:21:58.920 As Christians, we don't participate like that.
00:22:01.320 Right.
00:22:01.660 Yeah.
00:22:01.900 That's exactly what that Exodus 23 passage is talking about, that you don't join hands
00:22:06.360 with a wicked person to spread a false report.
00:22:09.260 But the funny thing is, is that I think critical race theorists could get on board with showing
00:22:15.320 patience and mercy and giving the benefit of the doubt to certain kinds of criminals.
00:22:19.820 Those there's all kinds of benefit of the doubt given to someone like Jacob Blake or to give
00:22:23.420 into a lot of people in prison.
00:22:25.420 In fact, the oppressed versus the oppressor worldview often sees criminals as victims of
00:22:32.140 oppression, people without moral agency, but people who committed crimes are, are, are in
00:22:37.120 prison because of a racist system.
00:22:40.100 So I think it's also important for people to see the vast inconsistencies that come with
00:22:45.520 a critical theory worldview that some criminals are given the benefit of the doubt, not because
00:22:50.900 of what they actually did, but simply because of the color of their skin or the oppressive
00:22:56.020 system that they are a part of, what they might call the prison industrial complex or
00:23:00.220 the like school to jail pipeline or whatever it is they call it.
00:23:05.640 But they are not willing to give the benefit of the doubt to other kinds of people that are
00:23:10.980 accused of, say, you know, shooting someone like a police officer.
00:23:15.400 So there are a lot of contradictions to that worldview.
00:23:18.320 Would you agree?
00:23:19.320 I do agree.
00:23:20.440 There are a lot of contradictions.
00:23:22.640 There's contradictions, especially like within the Christian framework versus the CRT framework
00:23:28.340 when we look at things like our identity.
00:23:31.080 So CRT is only looking at oppressed and oppressor.
00:23:33.900 This is the focus and your identity.
00:23:37.220 You are either a person of color and you are oppressed or you are white and you are the oppressor.
00:23:42.820 In Christianity, we are either in Christ or in Adam.
00:23:46.140 Our fundamental identities are, there's such a stark contrast between our fundamental identities.
00:23:53.360 And then looking at the way that some CRT people or social justice warriors uphold things like
00:23:58.800 racial reconciliation.
00:24:00.640 And I'll put that in air quotes.
00:24:01.880 You know, what is, what does CRT do that leads us to being reconciled?
00:24:06.760 There's nothing that it'll do because it, it actually is only looking at who are the oppressed
00:24:11.760 and who are the oppressors.
00:24:12.720 And as long as I can't change my skin color, I'm always going to sit on the side of the
00:24:17.140 oppressed.
00:24:18.200 And so to me, when we look at scripture though, we are reconciled because of the work of the
00:24:23.940 cross.
00:24:24.760 So what more work needs to be done for our reconciliation, there isn't any more work.
00:24:31.280 Now we can talk about how we walk out unity, but again, critical race theory and social
00:24:35.520 justice, they are, I say antithetical to the gospel.
00:24:40.980 They definitely contradict.
00:24:42.620 You're talking about the, the school to prison pipeline and how we release prisoners or who
00:24:48.680 is guilty, who is responsible is the word that I would use.
00:24:53.160 There's a conflation or even a lack of personal responsibility in many of these, these cases.
00:25:00.200 It's like, well, this person is, should be, should be let out of prison because they were
00:25:05.640 raised in poverty.
00:25:07.480 Well, what about personal responsibility?
00:25:10.360 How do we uphold personal responsibility within Christianity?
00:25:13.780 We see that I am held accountable for my sins.
00:25:17.660 I'm held accountable for the things that I do.
00:25:20.000 I'm not going to go back.
00:25:21.540 If we look at things like reparations, I'm not going to go back and Christ isn't going to
00:25:25.780 go back and look at my, look at me and say, well, because your mom did this, I'm going
00:25:30.120 to hold you accountable.
00:25:31.800 There's an idea of, of personal responsibility within Christianity.
00:25:35.660 And we aren't seeing this within society.
00:25:38.620 Yes.
00:25:39.220 And there's, there's not personal responsibility for people who the critical theorists say are
00:25:45.660 the side of the oppressed, but there is not only personal, but collective responsibility
00:25:49.540 for those who are on the side of the oppressor.
00:25:52.360 And it's important to point out that when we talk about the oppressed versus the oppressor,
00:25:55.980 we're not talking about actual oppressed or actual oppressor necessarily.
00:26:00.280 We are talking about perceived oppressor and perceived oppressed.
00:26:03.820 And so you could be talking about someone, you know, someone who was raised without a dad
00:26:08.680 in a trailer park in Appalachia, a white person who is still going to be seen as on the side
00:26:14.260 of the oppressor because the color of their skin, whether or not they have ever oppressed
00:26:17.740 a single person.
00:26:19.000 And you're going to be talking about someone like Beyonce who was on the side of the
00:26:22.320 oppressed or LeBron James, who was on the side of the oppressed simply because of the
00:26:26.420 color of their skin.
00:26:27.280 So again, critical theory is not only contradictory, it's not only very obviously unjust, but it's
00:26:33.120 extremely superficial.
00:26:35.600 And like you said, there are two categories God says for people, it is in Adam or in Christ,
00:26:40.860 those who are dead in sin or alive in Christ, those who are living in the flesh or a new
00:26:45.260 creation.
00:26:46.520 Those are the identities, the only identities that God gives us.
00:26:50.380 And within that, God says, don't show partiality to people, whether they're rich, whether they're
00:26:55.260 poor.
00:26:55.720 I think that would probably include the color of people's skin.
00:26:59.460 Why is it that people are just, you hear that there will be people who listen to this
00:27:04.080 conversation, who say that this is a white supremacist conversation.
00:27:07.340 This is denying the pain of the marginalized.
00:27:09.980 Why does that very simple fact that, hey, we really should treat all people equally as
00:27:14.940 made in the image of God.
00:27:16.360 Hey, there are two categories according to the gospel that people are, we should do justice
00:27:20.660 in a way that is actually just.
00:27:22.160 Why does that make people so angry?
00:27:24.620 Because I think it doesn't lift up the voices that they are saying need to be lifted up.
00:27:30.580 I think what people are doing is taking America's history, which I think we can, you know, America
00:27:36.300 has its own history, just like every other nation has its own history.
00:27:40.140 We have a history with racism.
00:27:41.940 And then you get media and other voices within society who come in and say, well, look, this
00:27:49.440 has always been racist.
00:27:51.100 This is all of everything that you're seeing is racism and people latch onto it.
00:27:57.200 It must be because it's in the news.
00:27:59.400 It must be because it's being upheld by the Democratic Party.
00:28:04.220 It must be because of X, Y, and Z reasons without doing research, without studying, without
00:28:10.760 looking at scripture, they're jumping onto a worldview so that they can do good.
00:28:16.340 Again, I think it's many well-intentioned people who just are not looking behind, kind
00:28:22.740 of like in The Wizard of Oz, they're not looking behind the curtain to see, well, who are the
00:28:26.860 people that are actually promoting this worldview?
00:28:30.020 Who are the people that are actually screaming out that everything is racist?
00:28:34.580 If everything is racist, then why are we seeing an increase in jobs within the African-American
00:28:40.240 community?
00:28:41.360 Like what?
00:28:42.360 How do we how do we explain that?
00:28:44.100 How do we balance this out if everything is racist?
00:28:47.460 Right, right.
00:28:48.640 Could you give some advice to people who are Christians?
00:28:54.680 I would say particularly Christian women are susceptible to a lot of this because we're
00:28:59.800 susceptible to white guilt because we don't want to be racist.
00:29:03.260 We're not racist and we desperately want to prove that we're not racist.
00:29:07.300 And so you get a lot of white Christian women who say, well, I'm going to be anti-racist.
00:29:12.660 I, you know, Black Lives Matter.
00:29:14.320 I'm going to post the Black Square.
00:29:15.620 I'm going to repeat all the talking points.
00:29:17.420 I'm going to immediately automatically latch on to every narrative that the media puts
00:29:21.680 out when a Black person is killed, because I want to prove that I'm a compassionate person.
00:29:27.020 But maybe they're listening to this podcast and they're realizing, oh, I didn't realize
00:29:30.140 I was perpetuated in an unbiblical worldview.
00:29:32.400 What would be your advice, your encouragement, your wisdom for them?
00:29:36.160 Is that there's no amount of work that you can do to make us, one, more reconciled, one.
00:29:44.040 And so when, when many white women, and again, I get these emails every day, you know, I don't
00:29:50.060 want to, to raise a racist child.
00:29:52.520 I don't want to be racist.
00:29:53.960 I want to live with my brothers and sisters in unity.
00:29:56.480 I want to be reconciled.
00:29:57.880 There's not no greater work that you can do to make us more reconciled.
00:30:01.760 If, if we are believers, then we are reconciled.
00:30:05.820 We are in Christ.
00:30:06.840 We, we are in the family of God.
00:30:09.060 That's the first thing to look at.
00:30:12.540 You can, we can look at critical race theory as a worldview of works.
00:30:17.720 And what we need to be in is a worldview of grace and of prayer and of compassion.
00:30:25.120 If, if we are living from those points and from a foundation of love, love the Lord, your
00:30:31.880 God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
00:30:35.100 There's nothing more that you need to prove.
00:30:37.700 You don't have to enter into this works-based religion or framework and say, I have to do
00:30:43.840 enough.
00:30:44.260 So now, you know, culture's telling me white silence is violence.
00:30:47.080 So I need to speak out and post the black square and do this and do that.
00:30:52.000 No, you need to get in a conversation with the Lord.
00:30:54.120 You need to be in prayer and find out what he would have you do.
00:30:57.780 Start from a place of relationship.
00:31:00.140 And some people will say, well, I don't have no black friends.
00:31:01.780 I don't, I don't know any person of color.
00:31:03.380 That's okay.
00:31:04.180 Start a conversation with the people you are in connection and community with.
00:31:09.260 Begin a conversation of unity from that standpoint.
00:31:12.440 You are, when you get together with your eight to 10 close friends, you're in a diverse community.
00:31:19.180 You can have conversations of, well, what do you think about unity?
00:31:22.320 What do you think about racism within your community?
00:31:25.440 And then as you guys go out, take that out to the broader community.
00:31:29.860 But start with a place of love.
00:31:31.940 Understand that everyone is created with dignity, value, and worth.
00:31:35.780 We are image bearers, including the person who has less melanin in their skin than me.
00:31:41.000 Right now, culture is saying that, and especially I find within the church, that white people are
00:31:46.420 our first guilty.
00:31:47.600 They are, they are oppressive.
00:31:50.920 They are first bad.
00:31:53.020 If we can just put it out there, like plainly, white people are first bad.
00:31:57.380 And we don't, this is not how we participate.
00:31:59.820 So I would say be free from that narrative and that mindset and know that you've been created with dignity, value, and worth in the image of God.
00:32:06.860 And you have something to contribute within the body and within, within community.
00:32:13.280 So for the white person, and we're speaking in those terms because that is, that's the framework that critical race theory has given us in, in helping people try to kind of get out of that.
00:32:24.240 And I think we do have to, you know, we have to say that for the, for the white woman who does sit down, maybe with their black friends, the black friend who says, you know, you, um, white people have white privilege and everyone is a victim of systemic racism.
00:32:40.240 There should be reparations.
00:32:42.320 I'm on board with Black Lives Matter.
00:32:44.020 And if you're not, I'm worried that you're racist.
00:32:45.660 There are friendships that have been seriously hurt because of this mentality.
00:32:49.920 So what does the white Christian say to their black Christian friend who seems to have bought into critical theory and critical race theory?
00:32:58.060 How do you lovingly push back on that?
00:33:00.980 I think you try to win the next conversation, but you live in truth.
00:33:04.980 So we can ask the question of, you know, biblically, where do you see that?
00:33:09.860 How do you see us when the scripture says that we are now brothers and sisters?
00:33:14.880 You know, how do you see us living in the same family from this standpoint?
00:33:18.860 When we talk about things like systemic racism and it's everywhere, well, how are you defining systemic racism?
00:33:25.400 Are you saying that the entire system is broken, like every system everywhere across all time?
00:33:29.880 Or are you saying that there may be pieces of a system that are broken?
00:33:34.580 What do you think should be done to be able to correct the system?
00:33:38.780 How do you see reparations as not being theft?
00:33:41.960 If I didn't have, you know, direct relationship with slaves, how do you see my participation in a system like slavery, thus needing my reparations?
00:33:54.940 Where do you find the concept of reparations in the Bible?
00:33:59.920 And most people will go to Zacchaeus.
00:34:02.260 Yeah.
00:34:02.420 You know, they will.
00:34:04.300 But again, Zacchaeus was doing something he was giving back out of the compelling in his own heart, the conviction in his own heart.
00:34:11.360 He took from his own and gave to the people that he directly impacted.
00:34:15.520 Right.
00:34:15.880 If I'm a white person, I'm going to ask, well, I can I can give reparations.
00:34:20.880 I can't like there's nothing to stop me.
00:34:22.620 But shouldn't that come from out of the conviction and compelling of my own heart to the people that I have specifically wronged if I'm going to participate, according to Zacchaeus?
00:34:31.540 Right.
00:34:32.120 These are questions that we can ask and people are going to get upset.
00:34:37.000 So we can know that right off the bat, though.
00:34:40.040 We can know, like, you know, this this conversation might be uncomfortable.
00:34:43.220 We can give grace.
00:34:44.400 We can give forgiveness.
00:34:45.620 We can ask for forgiveness.
00:34:46.960 We can, you know, say, hey, OK, this conversation seems to be going down a road that seems a little heavy.
00:34:52.820 How about we continue it another time?
00:34:55.080 Take a break.
00:34:56.380 Yeah.
00:34:56.660 And what I've had to understand is that in black and white, because I've had I get messages from white people all the time that I am on the wrong side of history, that I am.
00:35:09.360 We got a message this morning that I'm garbage, you know, so, you know, people will get upset.
00:35:14.620 And at some point, you just have to stand for truth and understand that in allowing people to have their own thoughts and their own beliefs and views and you standing for truth, it may create a riff in your friendship.
00:35:30.760 Right.
00:35:31.440 Right.
00:35:31.900 We are called to stand for truth.
00:35:34.380 Yes.
00:35:34.660 And we don't have to apologize for it.
00:35:37.620 In fact, Christ is our defender.
00:35:39.680 And if he is the way, the truth and the life, and if we believe that his word is truth, which as Christians we do, we don't have to acquiesce and we don't have to worry about meeting the world's definitions of justice and compassion, because we are actually seeing those play out right now in the streets of Kenosha and the streets of Seattle and Portland and Oakland.
00:35:57.520 We're seeing the secular critical theory definition of justice and compassion played out right now.
00:36:03.840 We are seeing collectivist justice, that justice that is not based on fact, that is not direct, that is not proportionate, that is not truthful as God's justice is.
00:36:16.020 And it means destruction for innocent lives and livelihoods.
00:36:20.000 It means punishment for people who did not commit a crime.
00:36:22.580 And if that is not the definition of injustice, like, I don't know what is, but you get people who say, well, riots are the voice of the unheard.
00:36:33.320 And so you just need to sit back.
00:36:35.380 I've heard Christian pastors, evangelical pastors say, you just need to sit back and ask yourself, well, why is this happening before you criticize the rioters?
00:36:46.240 Do you think that that's the right approach?
00:36:47.740 No, but I hear what you're saying that one of the questions that gets me is, well, you need to ask yourself, why are you uncomfortable with this?
00:36:54.780 I'm uncomfortable because it's my business, you know, like they're burning my business down.
00:36:58.780 This makes me a little uncomfortable.
00:37:00.900 Right.
00:37:01.040 But this is what we're being approached with, and it's because it's coming into evangelicalism in huge waves that we are now thinking we need to adopt a secular framework in order to be unified, in order to walk in unity or to do justice.
00:37:17.800 When scripture is clear on how we do justice and we can bring that over and say, okay, within our modern context today, what does that look like?
00:37:26.700 Mm-hmm.
00:37:28.280 Why is it that the church, I mean, otherwise it seems like solid evangelical pastors who I grew up listening to, some of them, one of them in particular that I'm thinking of, who has totally, it seems like given in to this rhetoric, is soft towards things like critical theory, they're preaching white privilege from the pulpit.
00:37:48.140 But what happened?
00:37:50.100 Like, what happened to these people's worldview?
00:37:52.060 How did they let something like this creep in?
00:37:53.860 Is it the fault of the church?
00:37:55.560 Have we been weak on this?
00:37:57.260 Like, do you have any idea of how this became so pervasive within the evangelical church?
00:38:04.240 I think there's a couple of things.
00:38:06.120 So one, I don't think that there are as many pastors actually going to seminary right now.
00:38:10.220 And so without having a seminary background, you're not able to understand clearly, this is what the word is saying.
00:38:18.300 This is what it means.
00:38:19.260 This is how we exegete scripture.
00:38:21.400 I think that's a problem.
00:38:23.220 Secondly, I think there's a problem of white guilt.
00:38:26.060 And culture is saying, this is how you fix it.
00:38:29.000 You fix all of the wrongs of society by joining this framework.
00:38:34.040 And so many people are jumping in like that.
00:38:36.200 I think when we look back to the time of like the civil rights era and things like that, you had the liberal church that joined in.
00:38:46.080 But the evangelical, like conservative church wasn't so prevalent within that movement.
00:38:53.520 And now there's a lot of pressure to say, where have you been?
00:38:57.000 Why aren't you speaking out?
00:38:58.760 Why aren't you doing something?
00:39:00.260 And now the only something that they think they can do is join critical race theory.
00:39:04.660 Yeah.
00:39:05.780 Yeah.
00:39:06.200 And they have believed that the civil rights movement is the same as the movement that's happening today.
00:39:14.280 But I've had a couple people on my podcast, Samuel Say, recently pointed this out, which I thought was a good point, is that the premise of the civil rights movement was just the manifestation of our founding values, that all men and women are created equal in the eyes of God.
00:39:29.520 And therefore, they should be treated equally under the law.
00:39:31.840 That was a true premise with a true pursuit towards that.
00:39:37.260 That's not what we're arguing about today.
00:40:07.240 That is why a lot of people ask, you know, why does Black Lives Matter only?
00:40:10.620 They don't care that Black people are dying.
00:40:12.960 They care about how Black people are dying.
00:40:14.660 So they don't care about, you know, the hundreds of young men that are dying in Chicago.
00:40:19.220 But I think it's because of this critical theory framework that it's not really about what is happening.
00:40:27.400 It's about why something is happening and if it's between the oppressor and the oppressed.
00:40:33.620 And I think that is part of why we're seeing just so much confusion and talking over each other right now.
00:40:39.280 And honestly, I don't know what the conclusion will be.
00:40:43.280 What do you think?
00:40:43.900 Yes, and we could get onto a whole Black Lives Matter conversation another day because I completely see that as being so destructive within the Black community.
00:40:54.460 But yes, they are concerned with who is dying at the hands of white people, who are dying at the hands of the oppressed.
00:41:03.120 And it doesn't matter if a white person is trying to defend themselves.
00:41:06.320 It doesn't matter if a Black person is trying to rob them or not even a Black person.
00:41:10.920 Any person of any color is trying to rob a white person and that white person defends themselves and the person of color ends up dying.
00:41:17.520 It's automatically racist.
00:41:18.980 We automatically need to go out and riot.
00:41:21.880 This is the rhetoric that's being put forth right now.
00:41:26.140 Now, where does this land us in the end?
00:41:30.060 When we look at critical theory, we look at the overturning and the uprising.
00:41:34.980 And I think this is what we're seeing within community right now.
00:41:38.180 You know, when we look at Kenosha, when we look at Seattle and things like that, it is the uprising.
00:41:43.280 It is truly the overturning.
00:41:44.940 If we play that all the way out, like it, it doesn't land us in a very good place.
00:41:50.300 Yeah, it lands us in the same place that every left-wing revolution over the past hundred years has landed us from the Bolshevik revolution to today.
00:41:58.020 It always is done in the name of some form of social justice, this anti-colonialism, anti-Westernism, anti-Americanism, imperialism.
00:42:08.620 If you study any of the left-wing revolutions, whether it's North Korea or Mao's China or Pol Pot's Cambodia or the USSR, the Bolshevik revolution, it's all the same thing.
00:42:19.680 That in the name of equality and justice, the same thing in Venezuela and Cuba, we are going to defeat who we say are the oppressors.
00:42:30.560 And they win over the rich through shame and they win over the poor through encouraging resentment.
00:42:36.240 They raise them up.
00:42:37.620 They destroy the systems in the name of justice.
00:42:41.780 And then what happens?
00:42:43.120 It's never, ever, ever been liberation and prosperity.
00:42:46.260 Zimbabwe, another example.
00:42:47.460 It is always more destruction, more oppression, further disparities, suffering, poverty.
00:42:55.780 And so, and I'm always just so curious, what do the people who are going out and destroying the cities in the name of critical theory, knowingly or unknowingly, what do they seek to build, at least ideally?
00:43:07.280 And I just, this is one of my last questions, but when you were a part of this world, what did you see as the utopia or the kind of world that you wanted to grow?
00:43:18.220 I would say equity.
00:43:19.400 I would say that there would be all voices at the table that, especially like going back to my years in university, it was predominantly white university.
00:43:28.580 We read predominantly white, white authored textbooks.
00:43:32.560 And I was concerned.
00:43:33.700 I was like, you know, what about voices like mine?
00:43:35.580 And so from this, from this point, I think people innocently get in and they're like, well, we need to elevate all the voices, but they aren't understanding that all the voices can actually be more problematic.
00:43:48.700 That this idea of inclusivity and the way that we go about it, if we're not going about it from a Christ-centered view, then we are automatically in trouble.
00:43:57.960 The idea of utopia that's being put forward today is this thing of equity and equality that everyone will have like this equal wealth distribution that everyone, you know, there, there won't be any poverty.
00:44:11.200 But in scripture, we find that the poor will be with you always.
00:44:14.460 So this, this endeavor will be with us forever.
00:44:18.940 Mm-hmm.
00:44:19.500 Mm-hmm.
00:44:20.240 And God obviously cares for the poor.
00:44:23.400 He obviously cares for the oppressed.
00:44:25.440 And he calls us to care for the poor and to care for the oppressed.
00:44:29.000 God very much cares about that throughout scripture.
00:44:31.740 He cares about the foreigner.
00:44:33.100 He cares about the oppressed.
00:44:34.900 He, and Jesus obviously calls his followers to care for these people.
00:44:40.660 And so I think that is also where things kind of get conflated is that, yes, absolutely.
00:44:45.700 We were supposed to care for the oppressed and the poor and all of that.
00:44:48.620 And God is the defender of these people.
00:44:51.060 And that is what makes him so awesome.
00:44:52.800 One of the things that makes him so awesome and compassionate, and we are supposed to live that out.
00:44:57.380 But again, I think it goes back to what you encourage people to do is to define our terms.
00:45:03.060 So what does an oppressed person actually mean according to scripture?
00:45:07.540 What does poverty look like?
00:45:09.400 How are we supposed to care for these people?
00:45:11.800 Is it compulsory?
00:45:13.820 Or out of the goodness of our heart, like the early church did, are we supposed to give everything that we have to these people?
00:45:20.360 And also just looking throughout history, what has happened when we have had total redistribution of so-called power and capital to the point of trying to force communism on people?
00:45:30.380 Has it worked?
00:45:31.420 Has it resulted in a utopia?
00:45:33.320 Has it resulted in happiness and prosperity?
00:45:35.500 And has it resulted in a better life for the least of these?
00:45:38.060 We know that it has it.
00:45:39.560 So you gave such good advice when you were talking about, you know, speaking to the person who might disagree with you on this, is pointing to scripture, defining terms.
00:45:48.620 I think that is kryptonite to critical theory.
00:45:50.460 And asking clarifying questions, also kryptonite, to critical theory.
00:45:56.540 So, yes, that was such good advice.
00:45:58.920 And if you could, just for our last question, could you please explain one more time the difference between the directives and the goal and the heart of critical theory and the gospel of Jesus Christ?
00:46:13.140 Well, I would say that the definition or the directive of critical theory would be to look at who are the oppressed and who are the oppressors within a society and how do we redistribute wealth?
00:46:26.760 How do we overturn those who have the power, those who sit in a place of power so that those who are oppressed also have power or overturn those who have power and actually the oppressed would have more power?
00:46:41.620 Now, within Christianity, what we see is that the rich and the poor, we have versions of righteous rich and versions of righteous poor.
00:46:52.700 We see a heart attitude.
00:46:54.360 We see something that is based on our own personal responsibility, our own free will.
00:47:02.480 There isn't a theft mentality in the gospel.
00:47:07.300 I don't have to have someone take my money and redistribute it in order for there to be equality, in order for me to be seen as an equal with you before the father.
00:47:19.720 This is where critical race theory or critical theory really gets off and goes off on its own sideline is how it's saying we achieve equality.
00:47:28.860 There is no foundational equality between us, which, again, is something completely different than what's in Christianity.
00:47:37.960 We see a complete redefinition of history and what history means in critical race theory.
00:47:44.620 So critical race theory, again, is always looking back to oppressed and oppressor.
00:47:49.160 In Christianity, we are looking at Jesus.
00:47:52.000 You know, all of history points us to Jesus and everything from now until the Lord returns is pointing to Jesus.
00:47:59.840 There are some, again, I spoke about identity.
00:48:03.000 There's some foundational issues with who we are intrinsically.
00:48:07.360 So I'm not sure if I'm answering all of your questions or if there are some definite contradictions, I call them, between critical race theory and critical theory.
00:48:23.160 And I'm sorry, critical race theory and Christianity.
00:48:25.820 And we have to understand what are the terms?
00:48:29.140 How are we defining things like racism?
00:48:30.740 Because if we aren't clear on that, we'll join in with the culture's rhetoric, not understanding that anyone can participate in racism.
00:48:41.460 It's an issue of the heart.
00:48:43.200 It's an issue of partiality.
00:48:45.080 How do we define justice?
00:48:46.900 How are we defining oppressed and oppressor, as you mentioned?
00:48:50.300 Yes, it's an issue of the heart, not hegemony, which is like power structures.
00:48:55.780 Correct.
00:48:56.340 Yeah, and that can, as we see, that can just be such a destructive mentality, ascribing guilt and innocence based not on people's real guilt and innocence, but again, based on a perception.
00:49:09.300 And critical theory is an entire worldview.
00:49:11.420 You can't have two worldviews at the same time.
00:49:14.740 One is going to give in to the other.
00:49:16.560 And I think that is so often, I've seen it in my own friends' lives, where they say their politics change because they say, well, this side is the only side that cares about the oppressed, the only side that cares about racism.
00:49:29.320 These are the biggest problems in our society.
00:49:31.180 And they start, without realizing it, changing their definitions of justice, changing their definitions of racism, changing their definitions of sin and responsibility.
00:49:39.580 And I see their theology fall apart.
00:49:42.920 I see them no longer affirming that Jesus is the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
00:49:47.840 They stop affirming things like biblical marriage.
00:49:49.920 And it's like, hang on, how did those two things happen?
00:49:53.560 Because they don't seem like they have to do anything with each other until you realize that it is a holistic worldview that affects every single thing that you believe.
00:50:03.020 And I think the wonderful news is that you articulated so well is that the gospel has a better message.
00:50:09.280 God has a better definition of justice, and he has a better definition of solutions for unity.
00:50:14.600 He has a better way of reconciliation than reparations.
00:50:17.740 I mean, he paid for all of that on the cross.
00:50:20.700 Ephesians 3 is, or Ephesians 2 is very clear that if he can bring the Gentiles and the Jews together, two very disparate groups, he can bring any group together.
00:50:30.000 And we celebrate, I mean, we celebrate that kind of diversity within the body of Christ as long as we remember our unity is in the gospel and is in the cross and not in anything else.
00:50:42.040 And that's such better news.
00:50:43.300 Like, we get to be free from the shackles of critical theory.
00:50:46.860 Would you agree with that?
00:50:48.040 I do agree with that.
00:50:49.440 And the gospel takes the pressure off of us.
00:50:52.220 It understands that we need something bigger and better than us.
00:50:57.000 We have wicked hearts, and it's not to, you know, put us down or anything like that, but that's just the reality of humanity, that we have broken relationship with a holy God.
00:51:07.540 And if that's the case, I'm going to need something bigger than myself in order to completely walk out unity, to walk out ideas of justice that can't be weighed on my shoulders.
00:51:19.280 I'm going to need instruction for how to do that, and that instruction must come from Scripture.
00:51:23.720 And the gospel is the great equalizer.
00:51:27.840 Like, you want to be equal?
00:51:29.320 We all see ourselves in light of the cross without Christ as totally depraved sinners.
00:51:33.340 Ephesians 2 says that we are dead in our sin.
00:51:35.400 There's not different levels of dead.
00:51:37.740 Like, you are lifeless and dead.
00:51:40.100 And that is what all of us are, no matter our skin color, no matter our socioeconomic class, no matter our background.
00:51:45.280 And that is another reason why it's so incongruent with the critical theory worldview, is that we are already equal apart from Christ.
00:51:53.280 And in Christ, we are also equal.
00:51:56.340 And so, again, I just think that is the true liberation that Christians get to enjoy.
00:52:02.180 And I just hope and pray that we model that well.
00:52:06.420 And you and the Center for Biblical Unity are certainly helping people do that.
00:52:11.900 Can you remind people where they can find you and where they can find the Center for Biblical Unity?
00:52:19.340 Online, it is centerforbiblicalunity.com.
00:52:23.420 On Facebook, it's the Center for Biblical Unity.
00:52:26.660 We are on Instagram, Center for Biblical Unity.
00:52:30.280 You can follow us on Twitter, biblical underscore unity.
00:52:33.760 Everything is the Center for Biblical Unity, pretty much.
00:52:36.860 And I'm not alone.
00:52:38.460 I also have my ministry partner, Krista Bontrager.
00:52:41.380 So you can find her there as well.
00:52:43.060 We are, yeah, we're just going to push forward promoting biblical unity and not a worldview that says,
00:52:51.280 in order for one voice to be lifted, I must drag down, accuse, and demean another.
00:52:56.920 Yes.
00:52:57.680 Amen.
00:52:58.160 Well, thank you so much for what you do.
00:53:00.340 I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.
00:53:03.020 Thanks.
00:53:03.380 Thanks for having me.
00:53:04.100 Yeah.
00:53:04.300 Bye-bye.
00:53:26.980 Bye-bye.
00:53:27.920 Bye-bye.
00:53:29.080 Bye.
00:53:30.900 Bye-bye.
00:53:31.980 Bye-bye.
00:53:33.040 Bye-bye.
00:53:33.620 Bye-bye.