Dr. Wayne Grudem has been a giant in the world of Christian ethics and theology, helping people understand how to read the Bible, study the Bible and shape their worldview based on the Bible. He has been so influential to me in helping me shape my worldview according to the Word of God, and I am so excited to get to talk to him today.
00:20:32.480I am concerned about an increase in lawlessness in society rather than the rule of law and order.
00:20:40.540The United States Constitution specifies purposes for government.
00:20:44.860In order to establish a more perfect union, to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility.
00:20:54.520That's one of the major purposes of the government, as set down in the first paragraph of the Constitution.
00:21:00.640But when riots are left to go unchecked and unpunished, the government is failing in its duty to ensure domestic tranquility, that is, domestic peace, peace within our borders,
00:21:11.360provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity.
00:21:17.300I'm calling upon Democratic governors and mayors to enforce biblical justice to protect property and protect people's well-being and lives.
00:21:28.420I saw last night, Ali Beth, Senator Rand Paul, a United States senator, was attacked by a mob in Washington, D.C.
00:21:35.060and had to be, he and his wife had to be rescued by police to protect them from severe physical harm that the crowd was, the mob was threatening them.
00:21:44.640I mean, this did not happen in our nation.
00:21:47.580I mean, I've walked in the area around the White House and felt perfectly safe, but I don't know if I'd feel perfectly safe today with protesters mingled in with rioters who don't seek good for our nation,
00:22:00.820but seek to disrupt and bring chaos and disorder and lack of safety to our streets.
00:22:06.220Then we turned into a police state with people having armed security, people who can afford it, having private security guards to drive them every place.
00:22:16.220I remember going to speak in Brazil in Sao Paulo, and even though my hotel was an hour, it was a mile from the university where I was lecturing,
00:22:24.100the host there told me it's not safe to walk on the streets, and they had a van with a security guard pick me up and drive me one mile,
00:22:32.740which I easily could have walked, because Sao Paulo is not a safe place to walk.
00:22:36.880I don't want the United States, the major cities of the United States, to turn into an area like that.
00:22:42.100But unless these rioters and lawless people, many of whom are just there to bring evil to the United States,
00:22:52.060unless they are arrested and brought to justice, not arrested and released the next day because of weak-kneed district attorneys,
00:23:02.460but arrested and brought to justice, we're in for a very different kind of nation,
00:23:07.660one that we certainly are not going to enjoy living in to the extent that we do today.
00:23:13.320Now, how do you think that we got here?
00:23:18.660A lot of these rioters, a lot of them are on Twitter.
00:23:22.440You can look at their Twitter profiles.
00:23:24.020A lot of them say that they are communists, that they are openly Marxist-Leninist, that they want to abolish the police.
00:23:31.980There was a person who spoke at the DNC who said that she wanted to not just abolish the police, but also abolish prison.
00:23:38.780So these are far-left communistic ideas.
00:23:41.880And just, what is it, 31 years after the Berlin Wall fell, we're back here.
00:29:09.460Are you surprised at all at some of the evangelical leaders who seem to be, at the very least, weak on this issue?
00:29:18.840And, in my opinion, some seem to be exchanging God's definition of biblical justice with a secular, more leftist definition of justice.
00:29:30.780Are you surprised or dismayed by that at all?
00:29:36.280Well, Alibeth, there is a long tradition of pacifism.
00:29:39.060It's a minority view within the Christian community.
00:29:41.060And the people, some of whom I know personally as friends, but the people who have promoted this pacifist view in terms of international relationships and military defense,
00:29:57.220have also expanded that pacifist viewpoint to the local and state level, where they don't think it is right to use force to overcome evil.
00:30:08.320And they have this slogan, violence begets more violence.
00:30:13.240My response is that violence against wrongdoers stops more violence.
00:30:25.440And they argue even that if Christians had just been acting more Christ-like, it would have stopped Hitler and Europe from taking over Europe.
00:30:36.440Hitler could only be stopped by superior armies and navies and air forces and air power because there is, in the world, there are people who are committing irrational evil.
00:31:09.080But my response is that Jesus has, in terms of personal relationship, commanded us not to seek vengeance in Romans 12, but give place to the wrath of God.
00:31:19.380And then Romans 13 says the civil government, as I mentioned, is God's agent representative to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer and to be a terror to those who do evil.
00:31:29.940And so, just to take a simple example, someone could say, well, we shouldn't have laws against drunk driving.
00:31:39.180We should just love people and be an example of sober driving.
00:31:43.300And, well, my goodness, that's hopeless because there are people who are going to be drunk drivers, no matter how much love from Christians they experience.
00:31:55.000I think the approach is both to love our neighbor as ourself and to have laws against drunk driving and severe penalties for drunk driving so that people don't harm others.
00:32:05.880So, it isn't enough to say we just have to act in love, yes.
00:32:09.700We have to take into account the Bible's provision of force or superior power for police to prevent violence, to prevent drunk driving, but also to prevent arson and looting and murder and mob rule.
00:32:26.160There are Christians who, though, are saying that, for example, you mentioned that superior violence sometimes is necessary to stop wrongdoing.
00:32:39.360The rioters would argue that they are the ones that are using superior violence to stop wrongdoing.
00:32:54.580And there are people who defend them, saying that, well, if you care more about property than you do people's lives, talking about the people who have died at the hands of what they call police brutality, then your priorities are out of place.
00:33:12.660There are even professing Christian leaders who I think are weak on this subject or who just say, I won't criticize the rioters because at least they're rioting for the right reasons.
00:33:23.160Well, the civil justice system in the United States is already taking care of rogue police officers.
00:33:29.700And the police officer whose knee was horribly on the neck of George Floyd in Minneapolis, for instance, is being subject to investigation and ultimately criminal charges.
00:33:40.100And he will be punished appropriately.
00:33:42.000So the justice system is working to bring justice in the case of police officers who commit wrongdoings.
00:33:53.160So why do we need a riot in order to do that?
00:33:58.380People who work a lifetime to build a small dry cleaning business, a small grocery store, a small florist shop or bakery, and to have that looted and destroyed in an evening, is that not people's life?
00:34:12.720It's not—it's what's important in their life.
00:34:16.680It's what they've taken months and years of hard work and sacrificial effort to build, and to take that away is violating the command, you shall not steal, and in some cases is resulting in actually death of some of the property owners.
00:34:32.440They're trying to protect their property.
00:34:34.240And the Republican convention had last night the sad testimony of the wife of a 44-year veteran, I believe, of the St. Louis police, who was attempting to defend his friend's pawn shop and was murdered in cold blood by these rioters.
00:34:54.020Now, that's the direction that things are heading, unless government steps in and takes very clear action to stop this ongoing violence.
00:35:12.420They don't want the country to turn into some of these cities that we are seeing burned down, and they know that they are trusting God and that God is completely sovereign.
00:35:23.440There's nothing that can thwart His will.
00:35:30.560They're scared for the future of the country.
00:35:32.060Do you have encouragement and wisdom for those people?
00:35:37.400Well, I would start, Allie Beth, by saying we pray and trust God and also act.
00:35:43.620So we pray according to the Lord's Prayer, give us this day our daily bread, but we also go to work to earn a paycheck.
00:35:50.040We don't pray and say, God, give us this day our daily bread and then sit at home waiting for some groceries to show up on our doorstep.
00:35:56.460So the principle—that's just one illustration of a principle in the Bible, that God wants us to pray and trust Him for our future, but also act responsibly to bring about the good results that we seek from Him.
00:36:13.200And so if people say, I'm afraid for the future of our country, but I'm trusting God that He will bring about the right result, and then they don't vote, they don't contribute to any political candidate, they don't talk to their friends about political issues, they don't know what they can do to influence our nation.
00:36:32.240And I think they're being irresponsible.
00:36:35.340So my response is, yes, trust in God that He will bring about what's best for our nation.
00:36:40.740But do what you can as you have opportunity.
00:36:45.420Whether it's volunteer to knock on doors, to do phone calls, whether it's taking time to answer a political survey that's so irritating when we get these phone calls.
00:36:55.800But it influences public opinion when we take the time to answer, and certainly to vote, vote state, local, and national elections, because they all influence the way the country—the direction the country takes.
00:37:12.940I can say, Ali Beth, also, that Romans 13 says, let every person be subject to the governing authorities.
00:37:20.860There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
00:37:25.200So that means that God gives us the government that we have, and the leadership that we have in each case.
00:39:40.260I could say also another benefit, I think, is that a large number of evangelical Christians in President Trump's administration at the highest level,
00:39:50.640at the cabinet level, Vice President Pence, of course, and Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo,
00:39:59.480numerous other Christians who have positions of influence in government,
00:40:04.760which they've been marginalized in the Democratic administration and the Democratic Party,
00:40:10.940because the parties have moved so far apart on policies that affect,
00:40:16.920that are in accordance with or in contradiction to biblical teachings.
00:40:24.240So I think there's a lot at stake in the future of the country.