Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 297 ｜ The Christian Case for Trump ｜ Guest： Dr. Wayne Grudem

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:11.300 I am so excited about this conversation that I'm having today with Dr. Wayne Grudem.

00:00:17.200 I think most of you know exactly who he is.

00:00:19.980 You have probably read as a resource, Systematic Theology, maybe Politics According to the

00:00:24.440 Bible, his book, Christian Ethics.

00:00:26.500 This person has been a giant in the world of Christian ethics and theology and helping

00:00:33.200 people understand how to read the Bible, study the Bible, and shape their worldview based

00:00:37.540 on the Bible.

00:00:38.340 He has been so influential to me in helping me shape my worldview according to the Word

00:00:45.160 of God, and I'm so excited to get to talk to him today.

00:00:48.060 Before we talk, just want to remind you guys, you're not enough in That's Okay, Escaping

00:00:51.700 the Toxic Culture of Self-Love.

00:00:54.020 We are walking through this book in Women's Book Club with Allie Stuckey on Facebook.

00:00:58.100 Go to AllieBethStuckey.com slash book.

00:01:01.940 It's a resource for young women in particular, but really it can apply to all kinds of people

00:01:09.500 about the top cultural myths that are being fed to us by self-love gurus, why they're incorrect,

00:01:15.860 why they actually lead to destruction, and we replace their falsehoods with the truth of

00:01:20.040 God's Word.

00:01:20.700 It is a book about good news, why the burdens of self-love are actually too much for us

00:01:26.000 to bear, and why the burden that Jesus gives us, which is light, the yoke that Jesus gives

00:01:31.460 us, which is easy, is far better for us to carry than the burden and the yoke that the

00:01:36.620 world gives us.

00:01:37.820 Okay, without further ado, here is Dr. Wayne Grudem.

00:01:41.240 Dr. Grudem, thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:43.800 It's good to be with you, Allie, man.

00:01:44.940 I think that everyone who is listening knows exactly who you are.

00:01:48.900 They've probably read Politics According to the Bible, they've read Systematic Theology,

00:01:53.100 or they at least have it as a resource on their bookshelf.

00:01:57.560 But in case there are one or two people out there who do not know who you are and what

00:02:02.480 you do, can you give a brief summary of who you are?

00:02:06.800 AllieBeth, there are thousands of people who don't know who I am, but I'm a professor at

00:02:11.200 Phoenix Seminary in Arizona.

00:02:13.600 I have been teaching theology and ethics for 44 years now, and I've gotten into, my PhD

00:02:25.740 is in New Testament, but I moved over to teaching basically systematic theology, which is what

00:02:32.040 the whole Bible teaches about different theological topics.

00:02:35.260 And then I worked into the area of ethics, which is the Bible applying to all of life.

00:02:41.200 And so I wrote a little book on business for the glory of God, that's the Bible applying

00:02:46.940 to business practice.

00:02:48.860 I wrote a book on the poverty of nations, that's the Bible applying to national policies to bring 0.74

00:02:55.380 poor nations out of poverty into prosperity.

00:02:59.400 And I wrote a book on politics according to the Bible, which is seeking to find good biblical-based

00:03:08.720 principles for a government to function.

00:03:11.380 So it will serve for the good of the people, not just the good of the rulers.

00:03:16.020 Right.

00:03:16.520 And that has been an influential book.

00:03:19.020 I'm thankful to God for that.

00:03:21.060 Yes.

00:03:21.520 Well, I'm very thankful for that as well.

00:03:23.680 You recently wrote a letter that I read on townhall.com or an open letter to an anti-Trump friend,

00:03:32.980 someone who approached you and said, you know, for these reasons, how can you as a Christian

00:03:38.980 possibly vote for Donald Trump?

00:03:41.340 Can you talk about why you as a Christian, as an ethics professor, do support Donald Trump?

00:03:48.620 Well, it's basically because of the policies and the actions that he has carried out as

00:03:58.420 a president.

00:04:00.500 He's followed policies that I think are consistent with biblical principles in many cases.

00:04:04.740 I could just mention a few.

00:04:08.420 The conservative judges that he has appointed that interpret the law according to the original

00:04:13.180 meaning and the Constitution according to the original meaning of the words, rather than

00:04:17.180 a judge who imposes his own view of what should happen on the nation.

00:04:22.720 But even when it's contrary to the meaning of the words of the law or the Constitution, he's

00:04:28.480 built a stronger military, whereas in the previous administration, our military was underfunded and we

00:04:34.740 began to shrink.

00:04:37.600 President Trump has overseen a huge increase in military funding, which is necessary with

00:04:44.320 hostile nations like North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, and so forth.

00:04:52.240 And tax cuts and deregulation that led to the huge expansion of the American economy, which

00:04:58.260 is really important for everyone.

00:04:59.540 Well, I could go down a list of things.

00:05:01.160 Moving the American embassy to Israel, becoming a true and genuine friend to Israel and standing

00:05:07.240 with it, negotiating a remarkable agreement between the United States and the United Arab

00:05:14.760 Emirates, which is the largest city is Dubai, which is headquarters for transportation and

00:05:19.500 finance in the Middle East.

00:05:21.900 And on and on and on.

00:05:23.160 I have another list now, another town hall column called 30 Good Things That President Trump

00:05:28.920 has Done for America, and the list could go on.

00:05:32.260 So now, my friend wrote me and said, how can you support a man of such evil character?

00:05:40.100 And I wrote back and said, you know, the assessment of someone's character is a judgment call and

00:05:47.480 it requires taking into account many factors.

00:05:49.640 I've publicly criticized President Trump's previous infidelity in his marriage, marriages, his

00:05:59.720 brash, bombastic behavior, his vindictiveness at sometimes, at people who disagree with him.

00:06:06.460 And those are character flaws, and I don't want to approve of them.

00:06:11.260 I don't.

00:06:11.740 I disagree with them.

00:06:12.960 But in spite of those character flaws, I realize that everyone has character flaws.

00:06:18.620 He has remarkable courage and faithfulness to his promises.

00:06:24.000 And he has done things that I think are good for the nation again and again and again.

00:06:27.860 I really think that his motives deep down are to do what is best for the nation.

00:06:31.720 He doesn't need money.

00:06:32.600 He's got $3 billion, $3,000 million.

00:06:36.440 He's a millionaire 3,000 times over.

00:06:39.240 He doesn't need money.

00:06:40.220 He doesn't need further friends or, I don't know, you could go down the list of things.

00:06:50.020 Right.

00:06:50.220 But his desire seems to me to be help the country.

00:06:54.520 Now, Alibeth, people will say to me, doesn't it hurt the Christian gospel when you support

00:07:01.940 such an immoral person?

00:07:03.200 And my response is, it's not the fault of Republicans, it's not the fault of Christians that the Republican

00:07:11.840 Party and President Trump have moved to endorse and carry out policies of less government, lower

00:07:19.000 taxes, stronger military, conservative judges, and many other things.

00:07:23.040 The Republicans under President Trump have moved closer to biblically-based positions on those

00:07:32.180 issues.

00:07:32.760 And the Democratic Party has moved farther away from those positions.

00:07:36.120 And I've held those positions since I mentioned in this letter, since at least 1964, when I

00:07:44.060 read A Choice, Not an Echo, and I was a junior in high school, and became involved in young

00:07:48.580 Republicans campaigning for Barry Goldwater for president.

00:07:52.220 He lost disastrously to Lyndon Johnson.

00:07:55.780 But I became convinced that smaller government, lower taxes, strong military, were policies

00:08:03.260 good for a nation.

00:08:04.280 And I've held that for, how long is that?

00:08:07.080 36, 56 years.

00:08:09.180 Right.

00:08:09.840 And now President Trump and the Republican Party and the Republican platform come along and

00:08:14.960 favor those policies.

00:08:16.220 Well, it's inevitable that I'm going to say I'll support a candidate who carries out those

00:08:21.380 policies much more clearly than any Obama administration did or Obama-Biden administration did.

00:08:29.560 Right.

00:08:30.180 Is there ever a time, this is something that I've weighed and tried to think through, is

00:08:35.300 there ever a time when a politician or a presidential candidate supports all of the policies that

00:08:42.220 we agree with, but his character flaws outweigh the policies that he supports?

00:08:50.560 Is there ever a time when we say, you know what, that character flaw or that moral decision

00:08:55.480 that he made is just, it's just one too far, and we just can't vote for this person, even

00:09:00.920 though we agree with all of their policies?

00:09:04.060 Yes, but I'm going to echo what Al Mohler said when he was on an interview with you a few

00:09:08.700 days ago.

00:09:10.520 He said, I'm not going to speculate and get into hypotheticals.

00:09:14.420 I could say that the Constitution specifies treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors

00:09:19.380 as grounds for impeachment, and those certainly would be areas where if a president committed

00:09:25.420 those crimes would make him unfit for office.

00:09:31.340 But beyond that, I don't think it's right to speculate.

00:09:34.120 Right.

00:09:34.300 Certainly, I think President Trump, in his conduct within office as president, his conduct has

00:09:41.000 been exemplary in many ways.

00:09:44.280 And people are criticizing him for his life before he became president, before he ran for

00:09:48.600 president.

00:09:49.500 But I'm saying, look at who he is, how he has acted now, apart from media distortions.

00:09:54.980 Now, here's another problem, Alibeth.

00:09:57.640 If people watch CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, they're going to get an incredibly imbalanced view

00:10:05.480 of President Trump and his policies.

00:10:09.600 I saw a study by the Media Research Center.

00:10:16.680 They took June and July of 2020 evening newscasts on CBS, NBC, and ABC and counted the times that

00:10:30.200 there were evaluative statements made about President Trump or Joe Biden.

00:10:34.200 Now, Joe Biden was already the presumptive nominee in the Democratic Party because Bernie Sanders

00:10:39.660 had to concede it.

00:10:40.460 And they found for every one positive evaluative statement that people heard about President

00:10:47.720 Trump, they heard 18 negative statements.

00:10:50.780 But more than that, for every negative statement they heard about President, or every negative

00:10:57.560 statement they heard about Joe Biden, they heard 158 negative evaluations of President

00:11:03.040 Trump.

00:11:03.780 Now, when you compare speaking about the two presidential candidates and say there's something

00:11:10.720 wrong with one presidential candidate, you say once, and you say 158 times something negative

00:11:16.500 about the other presidential candidate, that's not journalism, that's not fair reporting, that's

00:11:20.880 tremendous bias, that's the mainstream media campaigning on behalf of one presidential

00:11:26.440 candidate and attempting character assassination on the part of the other candidate.

00:11:32.340 And I think the American people have to be aware of that.

00:11:35.040 I would say, Allie Beth, to your listeners, if you're listening to ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC,

00:11:42.860 or the New York Times, the Washington Post, you're getting your information about President

00:11:48.160 Trump from that, you're getting false information a lot of the time.

00:11:52.640 And I'm thankful that we have the Wall Street Journal editorial page, we have the Fox News

00:11:57.900 and other conservative outlets for news.

00:12:01.900 But they're being overwhelmed by this incredibly negative, hostile press coverage.

00:12:07.700 Yes.

00:12:08.180 Yes.

00:12:09.820 And it's not even just the press.

00:12:12.220 You could argue that social media is skewed towards anti-Trump and certainly anti-conservative

00:12:17.080 rhetoric.

00:12:17.920 Certainly Hollywood is, academia is.

00:12:20.380 And so there are lots of cultural and media megaphones that are all saying the same message.

00:12:26.620 And it can be very difficult, I think, to cut through the noise.

00:12:30.820 Now, what about the people who are listening to this who say, OK, you know what, I don't

00:12:37.740 even care about his personal flaws, but they don't even understand why conservative politics,

00:12:43.940 like you said, smaller government, lower taxes, deregulation, they don't understand why that

00:12:50.500 aligns with the Christian worldview.

00:12:53.400 There are a lot of young people who believe that socialism is actually much more biblical and

00:12:58.200 much more compassionate and conservatism doesn't care for the least of these at all.

00:13:02.480 So can you clarify that?

00:13:04.040 Why, according to the Bible, are you a conservative?

00:13:08.120 Well, socialism is dehumanizing because it takes away freedom of choice in many areas of

00:13:13.280 life and lets the government make choices for us.

00:13:18.280 If I have a government that taxes me 50, 60, 70 percent of my income in order to distribute

00:13:24.660 the money as it sees fit to other people, that's controlling my life.

00:13:29.200 And socialism does that.

00:13:32.660 It's dehumanizing and it fails every place it's tried.

00:13:36.080 We can see the extreme results of socialism, say, in the nation of Cuba, which is horribly

00:13:40.640 impoverished, just, I think, 90 miles or so from Florida.

00:13:45.940 And it could be a wealthy, prosperous nation with freedom for its people, but instead they're

00:13:51.720 enslaved in horrible poverty.

00:13:53.680 That's where socialism leads.

00:13:55.240 It leads to, ultimately, communism.

00:13:58.400 Socialism, I define as the government ownership of the businesses, factories, what's called

00:14:04.360 the means of production.

00:14:06.240 And the more government ownership we have of those things, the more government control we

00:14:10.720 have of our lives.

00:14:12.700 And that takes away human freedom.

00:14:15.920 It takes away human stewardship and the ability to use our resources and our life in ways that

00:14:22.640 we believe God is calling us to live.

00:14:25.620 The Democratic Party is also increasingly, not only tending toward socialist policies, but

00:14:31.120 it's increasingly tending toward hostile anti-Christian policies, forcing artistic professionals,

00:14:41.640 such as cake makers, florists, photographers, use their artistic skills to endorse same-sex marriages,

00:14:49.180 which are contrary to the teachings of Scripture.

00:14:51.600 And then faced with incredible fines if they don't conform and comply with approving conduct that

00:15:01.840 they think is morally wrong, forcing nurses and medical technicians and doctors to participate

00:15:10.180 in abortions, even though they're contrary to their conscience.

00:15:13.340 And they do that only at a threat of loss of their jobs.

00:15:18.700 I would point out for another example, allowing biological males who claim to be transgender and

00:15:27.760 female to have access to women's locker rooms and bathrooms and sports teams. 1.00

00:15:36.320 Transgender males, transgender females who are biologically male have set all sorts of state records,

00:15:43.100 in Connecticut, in women's sports, because men's bodies are more muscular on average than women's bodies.

00:15:55.580 And the women athletes are losing out to these biological males simply because of regulations imposed by

00:16:04.060 democratic governments, politicians.

00:16:07.740 And then, Ali Beth, I'm very concerned about the lawlessness and rioting that we're seeing in many of our cities, 0.54

00:16:18.580 in Minneapolis, in Portland, in Seattle, in Chicago, in New York City,

00:16:23.020 where democratic politicians in charge, mayors and governors in charge of the government,

00:16:28.000 will not let the police intervene, but tell them to let the rioters burn and loot and

00:16:34.060 destroy property and, in some cases, injury and death to human life results.

00:16:44.780 Do we want that as far as, is that the kind of nation we want?

00:16:47.760 Well, we're voting for a choice between two packages this November.

00:16:53.460 There's Joe Biden and Democratic policies, and there's Donald Trump and Republican policies.

00:16:58.620 And the packages are far, far apart from each other.

00:17:04.800 Yes.

00:17:06.120 And there's no other choice.

00:17:08.340 We either are going to get Joe Biden and Democrats, or we're going to get President Trump and Republicans.

00:17:14.460 And I think Republican policies are much more faithful to Scripture and much more faithful to the good of the nation.

00:17:20.760 Yes. Speaking of the riots that are happening across the country, there are some Democrats that are saying,

00:17:29.280 you know, they're sporadic, they have nothing to do with Democratic policies.

00:17:33.220 But I've said many times on this podcast that we are actually seeing the logical conclusion

00:17:37.980 to the worldview of leftism, which divides people by race and socioeconomic class,

00:17:44.160 and thus fosters resentment in the same way that Marxism has always done that.

00:17:49.740 And so this is simply the logical conclusion to a lot of these Democratic policies.

00:17:55.460 And what they're doing, just like they always have, just like they did in the Cuban revolution, 0.88

00:18:01.100 which you brought up, just like they've done in every left-wing cultural revolution throughout the past 100 years,

00:18:07.300 is that they are waging this revolution in the name of justice, in the name of compassion, in the name of equality.

00:18:14.520 Well, justice and compassion certainly are things that the Bible talks about,

00:18:18.540 but there seems to be, there seems to be a disconnect there between some of the Christians that are saying,

00:18:25.360 oh, these people are protesting and writing for justice and compassion,

00:18:29.100 and what the Bible actually calls justice and compassion.

00:18:33.000 So can you talk about biblical justice?

00:18:36.700 What is biblical justice?

00:18:38.120 And when Micah 6.8 tells us to do justice, what does that mean?

00:18:43.260 Does it mean the people that are out there writing in the name of racial justice,

00:18:47.680 or does the biblical definition of justice mean something different?

00:18:52.600 I'll tell you, biblical justice does not mean stealing other people's property.

00:18:57.760 The Eighth Commandment says you shall not steal.

00:19:01.140 And there are laws in the Old Testament that give penalties for setting fire to your neighbor's property,

00:19:09.200 your neighbor's standing grain, for instance.

00:19:11.800 So people who commit arson and looting are violating biblical moral standards.

00:19:18.580 Now, a liberal political mindset or a democratic political mindset tends to the view that these people aren't bad,

00:19:26.480 they just have had a bad background that they needed to be listened to and understood.

00:19:31.300 But biblical justice holds people responsible for their wrongdoing

00:19:35.400 and sets out punishment in the laws of Scripture.

00:19:44.240 And it says in Ecclesiastes,

00:19:46.440 when sentenced against an evil deed is not executed speedily,

00:19:51.140 the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil.

00:19:54.220 I think that's what we're seeing in the riots.

00:19:56.480 It's not the peaceful protests and demonstrations.

00:19:58.960 Those are perfectly fine and legal.

00:20:01.300 But the riots and arson and looting that have joined up with these protests.

00:20:07.440 We're seeing sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily.

00:20:11.100 And what happens?

00:20:11.820 It doesn't calm down the violence and the looting and the arson.

00:20:16.920 It exacerbates it.

00:20:18.480 It fuels the fire.

00:20:20.840 The heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil.

00:20:22.980 That says unless government carries out its function of protecting its citizens,

00:20:28.600 violence is just going to increase.

00:20:30.240 Lawlessness is going to increase.

00:20:32.480 I am concerned about an increase in lawlessness in society rather than the rule of law and order.

00:20:40.540 The United States Constitution specifies purposes for government.

00:20:44.860 In order to establish a more perfect union, to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility.

00:20:54.520 That's one of the major purposes of the government, as set down in the first paragraph of the Constitution.

00:21:00.640 But when riots are left to go unchecked and unpunished, the government is failing in its duty to ensure domestic tranquility, that is, domestic peace, peace within our borders,

00:21:11.360 provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity.

00:21:17.300 I'm calling upon Democratic governors and mayors to enforce biblical justice to protect property and protect people's well-being and lives.

00:21:28.420 I saw last night, Ali Beth, Senator Rand Paul, a United States senator, was attacked by a mob in Washington, D.C.

00:21:35.060 and had to be, he and his wife had to be rescued by police to protect them from severe physical harm that the crowd was, the mob was threatening them.

00:21:44.640 I mean, this did not happen in our nation.

00:21:47.580 I mean, I've walked in the area around the White House and felt perfectly safe, but I don't know if I'd feel perfectly safe today with protesters mingled in with rioters who don't seek good for our nation,

00:22:00.820 but seek to disrupt and bring chaos and disorder and lack of safety to our streets.

00:22:06.220 Then we turned into a police state with people having armed security, people who can afford it, having private security guards to drive them every place.

00:22:16.220 I remember going to speak in Brazil in Sao Paulo, and even though my hotel was an hour, it was a mile from the university where I was lecturing,

00:22:24.100 the host there told me it's not safe to walk on the streets, and they had a van with a security guard pick me up and drive me one mile,

00:22:32.740 which I easily could have walked, because Sao Paulo is not a safe place to walk.

00:22:36.880 I don't want the United States, the major cities of the United States, to turn into an area like that.

00:22:42.100 But unless these rioters and lawless people, many of whom are just there to bring evil to the United States,

00:22:52.060 unless they are arrested and brought to justice, not arrested and released the next day because of weak-kneed district attorneys,

00:23:02.460 but arrested and brought to justice, we're in for a very different kind of nation,

00:23:07.660 one that we certainly are not going to enjoy living in to the extent that we do today.

00:23:13.320 Now, how do you think that we got here?

00:23:18.660 A lot of these rioters, a lot of them are on Twitter.

00:23:22.440 You can look at their Twitter profiles.

00:23:24.020 A lot of them say that they are communists, that they are openly Marxist-Leninist, that they want to abolish the police.

00:23:31.980 There was a person who spoke at the DNC who said that she wanted to not just abolish the police, but also abolish prison.

00:23:38.780 So these are far-left communistic ideas.

00:23:41.880 And just, what is it, 31 years after the Berlin Wall fell, we're back here.

00:23:48.800 How did we get here?

00:23:50.840 How did we get here to the point to where you've got a large swath of people in America

00:23:54.820 who are revolutionizing in the name of communism in a way that is violent?

00:24:01.980 I don't know that it's a large swath right now.

00:24:06.400 I think in many cases these are paid, violent agitators who are trying to stir up disruption.

00:24:13.640 I wouldn't be surprised if many of them ultimately are paid by Russia or China or Iran or Cuba.

00:24:21.780 And that can be determined by federal government investigation.

00:24:26.860 You can find out who's paying the transportation bills, who's paying the hotel bills, who's paying for the weapons.

00:24:31.160 Right.

00:24:32.000 That they bring to these demonstrations.

00:24:34.740 I've wondered the same thing.

00:24:35.940 And I've wondered who, is there a particular organization or a person that tells these people,

00:24:42.000 this is where we're meeting at this time and this is what we are going to do?

00:24:45.940 Well, that I don't know, but it's easy for the federal government to find it out.

00:24:49.440 And it needs to be done quickly.

00:24:50.860 I'm glad for Attorney General William Barr, who has launched this Operation Legend,

00:24:55.560 which has arrested over 1,400, 1,500 people now already.

00:25:02.820 And you notice, Allie Beth, when there were threats to tear down statues on federal property in Washington, D.C.

00:25:09.620 President Trump announced that they were going to start enforcing the law,

00:25:15.040 which brought a $10,000 fine to anyone who damaged federal property, such as federal statues.

00:25:23.120 And all of a sudden, the threats to these statues stopped because a $10,000 fine was a sufficient attorney and jail.

00:25:31.600 So, I think, increased government enforcement of laws.

00:25:40.860 But, Allie Beth, I'm also hoping that ordinary citizens of these major cities,

00:25:48.220 Minneapolis, Chicago, New York, Seattle, Portland, now Kenosha, Wisconsin.

00:25:54.640 I grew up in Wisconsin.

00:25:56.340 That the voters in these cities will vote out these Democratic politicians who have shown such weakness in the face of mob violence

00:26:06.820 and vote in stronger law and order candidates, most of whom are going to be Republicans.

00:26:11.480 Some may be Democrats.

00:26:12.880 Right.

00:26:14.280 Right.

00:26:14.860 I'm hopeful for that, too.

00:26:16.780 And there are some Democratic cities now in Atlanta, Detroit, Dallas.

00:26:22.720 These are cities that are run by Democrats, but who have simply said, no, we're not going to tolerate this.

00:26:28.780 We're going to support our police.

00:26:30.340 And we are going to, like you said, enforce the law.

00:26:33.640 So, it is possible.

00:26:35.260 It is possible for both parties to do that.

00:26:38.140 It just takes saying no and saying we're not going to tolerate this.

00:26:42.860 But so many city leaders have not.

00:26:44.780 And 10, 15 years ago, everybody on both political parties would have said the same thing.

00:26:50.000 Right.

00:26:51.060 But we've got an atmosphere of tolerance of evil.

00:26:54.600 A refusal to think that there are people whose hearts are evil and are set to do harm.

00:27:03.420 Yeah.

00:27:03.900 And ultimately, it's from what the Book of Romans says, there is no fear of God before their eyes.

00:27:13.140 Ultimately, people don't have a sense that they are going to be held accountable.

00:27:17.880 The Apostle Paul in Acts 17, speaking to pagan Greek philosophers who had no knowledge of the God of the Bible,

00:27:26.760 said, the times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

00:27:32.760 And because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed,

00:27:39.520 of this he has given testimony by raising him from the dead.

00:27:42.460 So, God has fixed a day on which everyone will be held accountable before him, a day of judgment.

00:27:48.280 And when we have a society where there's no fear of God before their eyes, people have lost track of that awareness.

00:27:55.420 But God has put a conscience in people's heart and an awareness that he exists.

00:27:59.540 And they have to realize that they will be held accountable for the wrong that they have done.

00:28:04.020 Also, it's good for government officials to recognize, according to Romans 13,

00:28:08.820 that God has enabled them to carry out God's vengeance on wrongdoers.

00:28:17.120 Romans 13 says, the civil authority is God's servant for your good.

00:28:26.400 And he's a servant of God to execute his vengeance on the wrongdoer.

00:28:32.140 So, that means, I've said this to policemen often, you're serving God when you bring punishment against those who do evil.

00:28:43.220 We're not to seek personal revenge, according to Romans 12, but according to Romans 13,

00:28:47.260 we should give it into the hands of the civil government to execute punishment of the wrongdoers.

00:28:51.800 And 1 Peter 2 also says the same thing.

00:28:56.220 And we need government authorities in the state and local level, particularly, but also at the national level,

00:29:01.560 to execute justice by punishing those who do evil and rewarding those who do good.

00:29:08.040 Mm-hmm.

00:29:09.460 Are you surprised at all at some of the evangelical leaders who seem to be, at the very least, weak on this issue?

00:29:18.840 And, in my opinion, some seem to be exchanging God's definition of biblical justice with a secular, more leftist definition of justice.

00:29:30.780 Are you surprised or dismayed by that at all?

00:29:36.280 Well, Alibeth, there is a long tradition of pacifism.

00:29:39.060 It's a minority view within the Christian community.

00:29:41.060 And the people, some of whom I know personally as friends, but the people who have promoted this pacifist view in terms of international relationships and military defense,

00:29:57.220 have also expanded that pacifist viewpoint to the local and state level, where they don't think it is right to use force to overcome evil.

00:30:08.320 And they have this slogan, violence begets more violence.

00:30:13.240 My response is that violence against wrongdoers stops more violence.

00:30:23.080 It prevents more violence.

00:30:25.440 And they argue even that if Christians had just been acting more Christ-like, it would have stopped Hitler and Europe from taking over Europe. 0.99

00:30:35.300 That's utter foolishness.

00:30:36.440 Hitler could only be stopped by superior armies and navies and air forces and air power because there is, in the world, there are people who are committing irrational evil. 0.88

00:30:50.960 And it cannot be reasoned with.

00:30:52.540 It can only be stopped by superior force.

00:30:54.440 And that's why we have police to stop evil with superior force.

00:31:00.740 And these pacifists say, well, that's not the way of Jesus.

00:31:05.040 Jesus is the way of love.

00:31:06.440 And kindness and compassion.

00:31:09.080 But my response is that Jesus has, in terms of personal relationship, commanded us not to seek vengeance in Romans 12, but give place to the wrath of God.

00:31:19.380 And then Romans 13 says the civil government, as I mentioned, is God's agent representative to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer and to be a terror to those who do evil.

00:31:29.940 And so, just to take a simple example, someone could say, well, we shouldn't have laws against drunk driving.

00:31:39.180 We should just love people and be an example of sober driving.

00:31:43.300 And, well, my goodness, that's hopeless because there are people who are going to be drunk drivers, no matter how much love from Christians they experience.

00:31:55.000 I think the approach is both to love our neighbor as ourself and to have laws against drunk driving and severe penalties for drunk driving so that people don't harm others.

00:32:05.880 So, it isn't enough to say we just have to act in love, yes.

00:32:09.700 We have to take into account the Bible's provision of force or superior power for police to prevent violence, to prevent drunk driving, but also to prevent arson and looting and murder and mob rule.

00:32:26.160 There are Christians who, though, are saying that, for example, you mentioned that superior violence sometimes is necessary to stop wrongdoing.

00:32:39.360 The rioters would argue that they are the ones that are using superior violence to stop wrongdoing.

00:32:48.200 And you have people...

00:32:49.160 Destroying innocent people's businesses.

00:32:52.300 Right, right.

00:32:53.300 And I agree with you.

00:32:54.580 And there are people who defend them, saying that, well, if you care more about property than you do people's lives, talking about the people who have died at the hands of what they call police brutality, then your priorities are out of place.

00:33:11.540 Your priorities are wrong.

00:33:12.660 There are even professing Christian leaders who I think are weak on this subject or who just say, I won't criticize the rioters because at least they're rioting for the right reasons. 1.00

00:33:22.200 What do you say to that?

00:33:23.160 Well, the civil justice system in the United States is already taking care of rogue police officers.

00:33:29.700 And the police officer whose knee was horribly on the neck of George Floyd in Minneapolis, for instance, is being subject to investigation and ultimately criminal charges.

00:33:40.100 And he will be punished appropriately.

00:33:42.000 So the justice system is working to bring justice in the case of police officers who commit wrongdoings.

00:33:53.160 So why do we need a riot in order to do that?

00:33:55.980 But also, property.

00:33:58.380 People who work a lifetime to build a small dry cleaning business, a small grocery store, a small florist shop or bakery, and to have that looted and destroyed in an evening, is that not people's life?

00:34:12.720 It's not—it's what's important in their life.

00:34:16.680 It's what they've taken months and years of hard work and sacrificial effort to build, and to take that away is violating the command, you shall not steal, and in some cases is resulting in actually death of some of the property owners.

00:34:32.440 They're trying to protect their property.

00:34:34.240 And the Republican convention had last night the sad testimony of the wife of a 44-year veteran, I believe, of the St. Louis police, who was attempting to defend his friend's pawn shop and was murdered in cold blood by these rioters.

00:34:54.020 Now, that's the direction that things are heading, unless government steps in and takes very clear action to stop this ongoing violence.

00:35:03.620 Yes.

00:35:04.100 Do you have any encouragement and wisdom for the people who are listening to this who are just—they're just scared.

00:35:11.460 They don't know what to do.

00:35:12.420 They don't want the country to turn into some of these cities that we are seeing burned down, and they know that they are trusting God and that God is completely sovereign.

00:35:23.440 There's nothing that can thwart His will.

00:35:25.780 They know that.

00:35:26.660 But they're just scared.

00:35:28.480 They're scared for their children.

00:35:29.500 They're scared for their lives.

00:35:30.560 They're scared for the future of the country.

00:35:32.060 Do you have encouragement and wisdom for those people?

00:35:37.400 Well, I would start, Allie Beth, by saying we pray and trust God and also act.

00:35:43.620 So we pray according to the Lord's Prayer, give us this day our daily bread, but we also go to work to earn a paycheck.

00:35:50.040 We don't pray and say, God, give us this day our daily bread and then sit at home waiting for some groceries to show up on our doorstep.

00:35:56.460 So the principle—that's just one illustration of a principle in the Bible, that God wants us to pray and trust Him for our future, but also act responsibly to bring about the good results that we seek from Him.

00:36:13.200 And so if people say, I'm afraid for the future of our country, but I'm trusting God that He will bring about the right result, and then they don't vote, they don't contribute to any political candidate, they don't talk to their friends about political issues, they don't know what they can do to influence our nation.

00:36:32.240 And I think they're being irresponsible.

00:36:35.340 So my response is, yes, trust in God that He will bring about what's best for our nation.

00:36:40.740 But do what you can as you have opportunity.

00:36:45.420 Whether it's volunteer to knock on doors, to do phone calls, whether it's taking time to answer a political survey that's so irritating when we get these phone calls.

00:36:55.800 But it influences public opinion when we take the time to answer, and certainly to vote, vote state, local, and national elections, because they all influence the way the country—the direction the country takes.

00:37:12.940 I can say, Ali Beth, also, that Romans 13 says, let every person be subject to the governing authorities.

00:37:20.860 There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

00:37:25.200 So that means that God gives us the government that we have, and the leadership that we have in each case.

00:37:31.480 Now, here's the question.

00:37:33.360 Does God give this ruler to bring judgment on our nation, or bring blessing to our nation?

00:37:39.180 Sometimes he gives a ruler who will bring judgment, as when King Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon carried off the Jewish people into exile.

00:37:48.640 And that was a ruler established by God to bring judgment on the people for their sins.

00:37:54.080 But sometimes he brings a ruler who will bring blessing to a people like Cyrus, king of Persia,

00:37:59.460 who decreed that the Jewish people could go back to their homeland of Israel and Jerusalem and rebuild the nation.

00:38:06.180 So now, has God put President Trump in office as a blessing or as judgment to our nation?

00:38:14.080 I think very clearly as a blessing to our nation.

00:38:18.140 Lower taxes, greater economic prosperity, more numerous jobs, higher wages for minority and low-income people,

00:38:29.640 judges that are faithful to the Constitution, rebuilding our military,

00:38:33.960 defeating ISIS that was causing such havoc in the Middle East and threatening the United States in our interests in many cases,

00:38:45.080 withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, which would have been economically disastrous for our nation,

00:38:51.660 actually building a border wall over 208 miles now, and maybe 450 miles of border wall completed,

00:38:57.900 much more effective than the ineffective border wall that was in place prior to that.

00:39:09.180 Again and again, these policies are bringing a blessing to the nation.

00:39:13.100 Extending, negotiating new trade agreements with China and Mexico and Canada more favorable to the United States.

00:39:20.140 I could go on and on.

00:39:25.680 I've got on my website, WayneGroodham.com, a list of 25 or now 30 good things that President Trump has done for America.

00:39:32.820 And people could look at WayneGroodham.com and see that list, or on TownHall.com.

00:39:37.640 Thank you so much.

00:39:39.820 That's great.

00:39:40.260 I could say also another benefit, I think, is that a large number of evangelical Christians in President Trump's administration at the highest level,

00:39:50.640 at the cabinet level, Vice President Pence, of course, and Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo,

00:39:59.480 numerous other Christians who have positions of influence in government,

00:40:04.760 which they've been marginalized in the Democratic administration and the Democratic Party,

00:40:10.940 because the parties have moved so far apart on policies that affect,

00:40:16.920 that are in accordance with or in contradiction to biblical teachings.

00:40:24.240 So I think there's a lot at stake in the future of the country.

00:40:28.580 And I'm concerned, but I'm hopeful.

00:40:30.620 I think that when I look over the list of what President Trump has done,

00:40:34.320 I think there's no question that God has brought him as a leader to bring blessing to our nation.

00:40:40.520 In spite of his character flaws, the results of his presidency have been overwhelmingly good for the nation and blessing to the nation.

00:40:48.860 And I'm hopeful that that blessing of God will continue for the next four years and more years after that.

00:40:58.660 Right. Well, thank you so much.

00:41:00.220 So people can go to waynegrudem.com to see a lot of your writings and your work.

00:41:07.540 Is there anywhere else that you would direct them?

00:41:11.780 Usually townhall.com has been publishing the columns that I write,

00:41:14.920 and I expect to be writing some more.

00:41:17.860 I'm thinking of one called Permitting Pastors to Preach About Politics.

00:41:21.220 Right. Well, that's good, because it tends to be the pastors that do are on the wrong side of a lot of the issues.

00:41:31.040 So there definitely needs to be some biblical clarity out there.

00:41:35.000 Well, thank you so much.

00:41:36.580 Thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

00:41:38.440 Thank you for the insight that you gave us today.

00:41:40.880 I really appreciate you being here.

00:41:43.800 It's been good to talk with you.

00:41:45.360 Thank you so much.

00:41:46.260 Thank you.

00:41:46.640 Guys, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.

00:41:49.540 Politics According to the Bible by Wayne Grudem covers a lot of the subjects that we talked about today,

00:41:54.720 as well as his book, Christian Ethics, covers a lot of what we discussed.

00:41:59.840 Like I said, systematic theology.

00:42:01.760 It's not about politics.

00:42:02.680 It's about the different viewpoints that are represented in the Bible

00:42:08.120 and how people interpret the Bible and the proper way to interpret the Bible.

00:42:12.420 So I will include the links to those resources in my description.

00:42:15.420 Highly recommend you checking them out.

00:42:17.380 They are just so helpful for those trying to shape their worldview.

00:42:21.020 Thank you so much for listening or watching.

00:42:22.980 If you're watching on YouTube, we will be back here on Monday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 04, 2020

Ep 297 ｜ The Christian Case for Trump ｜ Guest： Dr. Wayne Grudem

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