Ep 34 ｜ The Paradox of Likability
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Summary
Likability is a paradox. On the one hand, being likable makes it easier for you to gain people's trust, and on the other hand, it can be used as a tool of manipulation. Bill Clinton is a great example of a person who was naturally charming.
Transcript
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Hey guys, happy Tuesday. So just FYI, I am pre-recording these episodes this week
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because I'm going to be in North Carolina next week, aka this week for you guys as you're
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listening to it. So we are going to cover kind of an evergreen topic, and that is the topic of
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the paradox of likability, which I am going to explain in a second. Today, we're going to talk
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about it as it pertains to politics and in particular to the Republican Party. And on
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Thursday, we're going to talk about it as it pertains to Christianity. And today and Thursday,
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I am going to answer many of the wonderful questions that you guys have sent me in the
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last few days. So what is this paradox of likability or why is likability a paradox? And the reason it's
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a paradox is because on the one hand, being likable draws people to you, to your cause and to your
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message, making it easier for you to accomplish whatever goal it is that you want to accomplish,
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whether that is just becoming someone's friend, gaining affirmation, convincing someone of your
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plan, persuading them with an idea, whatever it is, likability typically helps you. And likability
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comes in many forms, in my opinion. Someone doesn't even have to be friendly to be likable. They don't
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have to be articulate necessarily to be likable. They don't always have to be funny or attractive,
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though I think all of these things can help. But people who are likable are sometimes dry,
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serious, reserved. And likewise, there are people who are very gregarious and funny who are not
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likable at all. There's just kind of this intangible quality many times in likability. There are a lot of
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things that people can do to improve their level of likability, but some people are just kind of born
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with this aura of likability that draws people to them, that compels other people to listen to them.
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And the truly impactful people are the ones who are not only naturally likable, but they're also
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smooth. They leverage their natural likability into charm, a charm that persuades people.
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Likeability not only draws people to you, it also makes them trust you. Most people I know,
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maybe not everyone, but most people I know want to be likable. I mean, that's the reason why most of us
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are on social media. We want likes. We want affirmation that people like us. We present
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ourselves as attractive, as fun, as funny, as the kind of people other people would want to hang out
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with. Most people want to be likable. Now, yes, some people would rather just command respect. People in
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the military, for example, they may not care about being liked. They just want to be respected.
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They would rather be feared. But I think in the words of Michael Scott, if we had to choose between
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being feared or loved, we would probably say both that we want people to fear how much they love us.
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And even though I would say that the likes we seek on social media are kind of they're unhealthy
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and they're fleeting forms of affirmation. The desire to be liked and to be likable is natural.
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That's because likability is a good quality to have. Everyone wants to be charming. Everyone wants
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to be the kind of person people listen to and want to hang out with. Likeability in general is a good
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quality to which people aspire. At first or at my first job, we called it something called woo,
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which stands for winning others over. It's an incredibly valuable characteristic that for the
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most part I think is God given. But on the other hand, there is a downside to likability. It is a
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double edged sword. Likeability can also be used as a tool of manipulation. The same characteristic
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that draws people in can also convince people of lies. It also has been used as a facade at some
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points. People are often so captured by the likability of someone that they're unable to
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see what's behind the curtain. They're unable to examine the message that this likable person is
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conveying in an objective way. The first person that comes to mind for me is Bill Clinton. By every
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account that I've ever read, he is charming. There's just something about him that people really love.
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I think he has a personality trait that he was really just bored with. But apparently,
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he kind of has habits of a likable person. At least when he was a politician, he remembered everyone's
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name every time. He remembered the small things that you mentioned just once, things about your
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family, your own life. When he was talking to you, and maybe it's still this way, he makes you feel
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like you were the only person in the room. And it worked for him. He was embroiled in scandal and
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accusations of being a womanizer while he was still governor of Arkansas. He still got elected
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president after that. And then in his first term, he was under investigation for all kinds of
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suspected corruption. And he still got elected for a second term. Now, of course, he was impeached
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and then acquitted in the middle of his second term. But the point is that despite all of the public
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scandal that surrounded him during his presidency, he still won the hearts of the people. He was liked,
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at least by his own party. And if they're honest, a few Republicans probably liked him as a person
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too. But what we also know about Bill Clinton is that he was a master manipulator. We all know about
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Monica Lewinsky, but he had a long history of messing around with women when he was in positions of power
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from everything Lewinsky has said in her biography and elsewhere. She honestly felt that he loved her,
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that he cared about her, wanted a relationship with her. It wasn't just a physical relationship
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either. It was an emotional relationship. And it was the emotional side of that relationship with
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Bill Clinton that tore Monica Lewinsky apart. She fell in love with him and Bill Clinton encouraged it,
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but obviously had no intention of actually being with her. And that's the way that Clinton was
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reportedly with everything. He had a way of dodging scandals and accusations of corruption through
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charm. And he still does it to this day. You remember that he's had interviews recently where
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he will dodge questions about the responsibility of the situation with Monica Lewinsky. This is what
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master manipulators do. And it is impossible to be a master manipulator if you are not first likable.
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Bill Clinton is a perfect example of the paradox of likability in politics. But likability doesn't
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always have to have that downside. It doesn't always have to be a paradox. It doesn't have to be used
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for manipulation. Ronald Reagan is an excellent example of someone who used his charm and his
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wit and his communication skills and acting ability to win people over. But from every account ever
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rendered, he was a man of faith, of goodwill, of honor and integrity. He was called the great
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communicator. And he used that gift not to cover up corruption underneath, but to actually shed light
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on the truth in a way that would embed his message into people's hearts and minds. I'm not saying he
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wasn't partisan, that he wasn't trying to convince people, other people of his particular political
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stances. He was. But from everything that people have said about Reagan, his likability was genuine.
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It was used as a tool to advance his causes, which were primarily the restriction of nuclear weapons
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and the alleviation of tax burdens on Americans. Now, I know that I just used a Democrat for my bad
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example and a Republican for my good example, but it's not really a partisan thing. There have been
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good and bad likable people on both sides of the aisle. FDR was a Democrat. And while I don't agree
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with most or all of his policies that he put in place during the Great Depression,
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I think that as far as we can tell, his motives were pure. His fireside chats changed the countenance
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of the entire nation. He was actually a really big inspiration for Reagan and the way that he
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communicated, really reaching into the hearts and minds of distressed Americans and assuring them
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that they're going to be OK. He drew people to him. That was a gift. And to the best of his ability
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at the time, he did use it for good. People loved FDR on both sides of the aisle. People
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in both parties have been praising him for decades. And for the most part, besides Reagan and a handful
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of other Republican politicians over the years, Democrats and progressives have dominated the
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field with both good likable people and bad likable people. And this is the paradox. This is the problem.
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Likeability is useful for drawing others in, but it can also be a cover for both bad people
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and bad ideas. And I'm seeing that especially right now. You have people like Ocasio-Cortez,
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like Beto O'Rourke here in Texas, like Andrew Gillum in Florida. You still have in the background
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people like Obama and Bernie Sanders. These are people with horrific ideas, truly damaging
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socialist ideas who are likable people. Bernie Sanders and Obama, other than Bernie Sanders and
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Obama, they are young. The people I just listed, they, including Obama, are pretty good looking.
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They're attractive looking. They are charming. They are relatable. They make you feel like even
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though, even if you don't agree with them, you would hang out with them. Now, a huge part of that
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is, of course, how they are actually portrayed by the media. They are on all the late night shows.
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They're hanging out with celebrities, which all lends to this idea that they are cool,
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hip people. Even Hillary Clinton was made to seem likable by the media. But even Ellen,
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one of the most likable people, at least on TV in the world, couldn't make Hillary Clinton
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attractive to the right people. But for the most part, progressives put forth likable,
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relatable candidates at higher rates than conservatives do. And I can see conservatives
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becoming defensive about this because since most conservatives are pretty smart, we know about
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the superficiality of just being likable, that if it's not backed by integrity and substance,
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then it really doesn't matter how charming you are. But the mistake, the mistake that conservatives
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make is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and pretending that likability is a bad thing that
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should be kind of shunned altogether. That is why, in my opinion, we don't typically put forth
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likable candidates, which is why, consequently, conservatives do not attract young people.
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We constantly harp on this idea or this line that the best idea wins. And while I really wish that
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were true, it should be true. It's just not. The reality is, is that it is usually nine times out
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of 10 the best communicated idea that wins. Now, some people will say that even a wonderfully
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communicated idea might fall on deaf ears if the people that you're speaking to are indeed deaf
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to logic and reality. We Christians know that firsthand. It doesn't matter how many different
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ways you present the gospel to someone. They still might not believe it. The Bible tells us
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that that's going to be the case. So I'm not saying that unconditionally communication wins people over.
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Some people just refuse to hear. But typically, it is the winner of the battle over messaging
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who wins the war over ideology. So it is a mistake. It is a mistake for conservatives to say we don't
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want anything to do with Obama's charm or Beto O'Rourke's relatability or Ocasio-Cortez's social media
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marketing strategy. All we care about is someone's principles and agenda. I understand that. I do.
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And sometimes that works. But even unlikable candidates still have to be more likable than
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the person they're competing against. I wouldn't say Donald Trump is the most likable guy in the
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world, but he was more likable to the right people than Hillary Clinton was. And in the end, that's
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really all that matters. That worked for that election. And it might work again. But increasingly,
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the people conservatives are going to have to convince are not going to be the baby boomers in
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middle America that like Trump. They're going to be the millennials who don't like Trump or anyone
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like him. And whether we like it or not, millennials care about likability more than they care about
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anything else. That is why, in large part, socialists are winning over that generation with
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their ideas because their candidates seem cool. Let's just be real here. For those of you who live in
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Texas, who would you rather grab a beer with? Politics aside, Beto O'Rourke or Ted Cruz?
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Politics aside, just what you've seen of them. Not that I would be going to a bar by myself with
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one of these random men. But if I were, I would probably honestly pick Beto O'Rourke. I would hang
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out with Ocasio-Cortez. I would probably hang out with Andrew Gillum probably more than I would Ron
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DeSantis. He seems like a really nice guy. The only reason I don't like any of those people,
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the socialists that I listed, is because I care about policy more than I care about personality.
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And the reason I do is because I actually pay attention. But the vast majority of millennials
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don't. They don't care. They don't feel like they have time. So what do they do? They go on social
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media. They like what they see of O'Rourke. He made them laugh or something like that. They made
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him feel good. So they vote for him. And how conservatives tend to respond to that is,
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well, millennials are idiots. They're uninformed. They're stupid for only caring about how attractive
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someone is. And yes, I agree. I agree with that. They are stupid for only caring about that. But
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harping on their ignorance isn't going to win us elections. Putting forth likable candidates well.
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So even though likability is or can be paradoxical, even though it has a dangerous side,
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it doesn't have to be. I think even conservatives now link charm to Democrat. So we tend to avoid
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charming, compelling candidates because we think they lack substance or something. But remember,
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while likability can be used to cover up indecency, as was the case of Bill Clinton and even JFK,
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it can also be used to win people over to a good cause, like with Reagan. We are stupid.
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for not realizing that and manifesting that. A large number of Republican candidates and politicians,
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not all, but a lot, in my opinion, are stuffy and nerdy. They just are. They are the kind of people
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that you just know have been reading about tax policy since they were 12. And there's nothing wrong
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with reading about tax policy since you were 12. But I want to know that you can also carry an engaging
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conversation with me. So I have been throwing around some ideas in my head about how I personally,
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as a conservative commentator, can help with this. What can I do to make our Republican leaders and
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conservatives come across as real people? Because that's what we lack. Realness. An exception to this
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rule, I would say, is Ben Sasse. He is a very likable person. I don't know what you think about all of
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his politics, but he's very likable. But I want to help show other people are real, that they are
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likable, that are on our side. And I have reached out to three, I won't say who, three Republican
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leaders in Congress to do a funny satirical interview with me, like the one I did with Ben Shapiro.
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And even though I have really good connections with all of them, I've met two of them.
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Um, and from what I know, I think that we agree and I'm, I'm liked by these people. I was turned
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down by all three. Uh, there could be a plethora of reasons for this. They certainly have better
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things to do, better ways to spend their time than talking to a mid-level podcaster. I totally get
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that. I don't think that I'm some like star that they need to drop everything for. But one of these
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people, one of these people in particular, whom I am very well connected to has a race to win and it is
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a close race. And guess what? His democratic opponent is dominating with millennials. His
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democratic opponent is light years more likable than he is. Now this person will probably end up
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winning. His state is very red, but if he were smart, he would have taken an interview with someone
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who is going to a help him look fun, funny, and real. And B has an audience of almost all millennials
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and is connected to a lot of young people in his state. And like I said, maybe he turned me down
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because he was genuinely busy, but this would have been an excellent opportunity for him to relate
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to the demographic that he is struggling most, most with, uh, same with the two other congressmen,
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the most serious guys in the world, but they have great ideas and they could, uh, use some help
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relating to young people. They straight up said no. So my advice to any Congress people and to you who
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have Congress people would be, uh, to encourage them to take opportunities in which their real side is
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actually shown. Uh, so I say that because when I originally ranted about this on my Instagram story,
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I got a lot of questions. One, I got a lot of people telling me to run for office, which hate to
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break it to you. Probably never going to happen. Uh, but I also got a lot of questions about what we
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can do to change that and help. Um, and I'm just letting you know that I'm trying. This is a huge
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reason why I do the non-serious funny, at least to most of you, funny videos, because I have a lot of
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people reach out to me after them and say, okay, I don't like your politics or I don't agree with
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you, but your stuff makes me laugh. I just had someone the other day who I haven't talked to in
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years, who is a diehard liberal say, you know what? Your tweets really make me laugh, but I don't agree
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with anything you say politically. Uh, that's okay with me. I think it's an interesting way to reach
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across the aisle. Um, I get messages or reviews every day that say, you know, I, I hate this podcast,
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but I really like you. Uh, that is why the podcast is called relatable because we have a huge problem
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among conservatives and Republicans with being likable. Uh, now there are plenty of people I'm
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sure who find me really annoying and not relatable at all. And that's fine. Uh, that's always going to
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be the case no matter what, but we need likability, relatability in our party and on our side. And we
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just don't have very much of it. Uh, so here are a few tangible tips for conservative politicians.
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Uh, first of all, stop acting and talking like a politician. That is part of why Trump beat Hillary.
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He didn't sound like a politician. Like this is, this is one of my peeves when it comes to politicians,
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when they do that thing with their hand, where they put the thumb over their forefinger and they
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point without actually pointing. I want to know where politicians learn that. Is that something that
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they teach you and the poli side department who said that that was a good thing to do when you're
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speaking? Also, also learn to give a speech, learn to give a speech in a way that doesn't sound like
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you're reading from a book. Uh, every politician's cadence is the exact same. Their tone is the exact
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same. The best thing about Ronald Reagan was that he made you laugh and he actually just made you feel
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good, made you feel inspired. Um, I know very, very few conservatives in politics who can do that.
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They are boring as heck. Some of the worst speeches I've ever heard have been given by conservative
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Congress people. Uh, so lighten up, have a heart, have empathy. That's probably the biggest thing.
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Have empathy for your audience and let them know that you're thinking about what they're thinking.
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Don't just get up there and push your agenda down their throat. Let them know that you feel the same
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things they feel, read their minds, articulate their emotions, um, have some pathos rather than
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only going for the logos every time. Um, and conservative influencers can do a better job
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of being likable to all of us, um, of being funny and kind and relatable. That doesn't mean that that
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looks the same for everyone. It doesn't. Ben Shapiro is an example. He's, he's intellectual and dry,
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but he also has a really good sense of humor and is good at bringing that out in an effective way
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that makes people really like him. Uh, he has a way that kind of draws people in that's different
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than my way or a lot of other people's way. Um, but he allows himself to be a real person. And I think
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that that's the ticket, uh, too many conservatives come across only as mean and cold and one dimensional
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or two dimensional and condescending. Um, and I hate, or I hate this. It's this kind of idea that
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because we hate political correctness, we have to purposely hurt people's feelings and say things
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that trigger everyone in sight. Uh, I just think that that's a really dumb strategy, especially in
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attracting young people. Now there's nothing wrong with speaking truths and triggering someone. You
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can't really help it if the truth hurts, but this tactic of only saying things to get a rise out of
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people is a losing strategy for conservatives. Just be a real person. Um, okay. So for today,
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that's it for the likability paradox for conservatives. Now I want to answer some of your questions because
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I said that I would, um, I asked y'all to give me some personal questions, political questions,
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uh, whatever your little hearts desired. So you did. So thank you for that. Uh, first question
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has nothing to do with politics. Uh, how did your husband propose? Uh, my husband, Timothy proposed
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after we were dating for five months, as some of you guys know, and let's see, I know it was,
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it was the day after I had this big event for work. I was doing PR for this big leadership organization.
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And that night we went to a concert. I believe we saw Hozier in concert, which is kind of random.
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And I'm not sure if I remember that it was coming or not, but the next day he was surprising me with
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something like we were going on a trip. Um, and he took me to Furman where I went to school and we'd
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like, I don't know, we walked around campus and then we went to this place called Falls Park,
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which is in Greenville. And we were just kind of walking around. And at that point I kind of knew
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because he was like walking three feet ahead of me the whole time. And he just seemed really
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nervous and he was talking fast and I felt like he was kind of shaky and stuff. And then we were
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walking around and I could tell he was looking for a spot for us to kind of sit down or something.
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Uh, but anyway, we just, I guess he found a spot and he, yeah, got down on one knee. For some reason,
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I remember this distinctly. I remember dropping my sunglasses and that kind of ruining the moment.
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And also we didn't have anyone around to take a picture. So I do recommend,
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I don't know, someone being around, take a picture. If you're into that, um, we don't have
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a picture of the actual proposal and we got along just fine, but we did get a picture after. So it
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was in Greenville. And then we drove back to Athens where we were both living at the time.
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And, um, I was surprised to go into a sister's house and see my parents and my best friend.
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And it was great. And we only had a four month engagement. I highly recommend short engagements.
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So that's how my husband proposed. Uh, second question. If you have friends in your personal
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life who are not Christians, how much obligation do you have to specifically proselytize them,
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uh, versus just letting the way you live your life be a witness? I think that's a good question.
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And I'm not sure that there's a perfect formula for that. I do think that it's important to actually
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speak truth to someone. I think that we obviously, we sometimes give ourselves a cop out when we say,
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oh, we're just going to be really nice to this person and hope that they come to the Lord.
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And really that's just kind of a way to not want to feel uncomfortable. Um, but I do think that you
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living your life at the end of the day is more important than your words, that you showing them
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that you're, that your life is different, that how you give, how you live, how you talk,
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the things you care about, the way that you spend your money, the way that you spend your time,
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how much you serve people, the way that you don't talk badly about people, even the music
00:24:22.220
that you listen to, those can all be an example of a life that is marked by Christ. And I also think
00:24:29.700
things like, uh, not obsessing over, uh, social media, the superficial affirmation that it brings,
00:24:36.820
um, you know, relieving your anxiety by praying. All of these things are so counter-cultural
00:24:42.260
and different than how the world deals with things that I think that that can be an amazing
00:24:46.340
witness because you're showing them what the freedom of living in Christ looks like. And
00:24:52.240
people are attracted to that. But I do think it's important, especially when the opportunity arises
00:24:56.800
organically, uh, to be unashamed in your preaching of the gospel and to not be shy about the truth
00:25:02.980
and to take the opportunity when you can to bring it up yourself. Um, I think it's important to do
00:25:08.480
both, but of course that an example indeed, uh, is even better than using words. Uh, next question,
00:25:15.880
if you had to pick losing the ability to joke or never speaking in public again,
00:25:22.240
which would you choose? And then in parentheses or losing a limb? Ooh, um, I would choose never,
00:25:33.140
ever, ever, ever joke. Limb. I feel, I feel like I would lose a limb. I feel like I would rather lose
00:25:45.180
my arm, not a leg. I don't know. Not a leg. I would rather lose my arm. Definitely. So ranking goes
00:25:52.560
first, first, the most important to me of these things is public speaking. I would never choose
00:26:00.420
to not public speak again. And then the joking is secondary. So I would rather public speak than
00:26:07.040
joke, but I would rather lose a limb than eliminate any of the things because like, okay, I have a new
00:26:14.000
cool defining feature of me. It's like, oh, she's not just the conservative millennial. She is the one
00:26:18.980
arm conservative millennial. That just adds like a whole different dynamic to everything that I do.
00:26:24.520
And really how much do I need my left arm? Really? I definitely don't need limbs for podcasting.
00:26:30.280
So I think I would lose a limb. Um, next question. This is interesting. I've always thought yoga was
00:26:38.380
like the spiritualistic thing that had no business in the church, but I've been seeing more and more
00:26:43.540
churches having yoga groups as part of their small groups. How can these two things coexist? Um,
00:26:49.840
so I don't know if I have the absolutely correct theological answer on all of this. I've done yoga
00:26:56.160
in the past. I kind of feel like it's an individual thing. I have never done yoga in order to,
00:27:02.420
I don't know, do anything idolatrous or that doesn't glorify God. I think that yoga can be used
00:27:09.520
as a good meditative force to even pray or to just get your mind centered or to kind of be at peace
00:27:16.320
and to be quiet while also exercising your body. I don't think that there's anything inherently
00:27:21.200
sinful about it. Now, of course, if you were expecting it to do some magic on your mind,
00:27:25.920
it's going to give you a peace outside of Christ. Then no, I don't think that's going to work. And I
00:27:31.540
guess there are some weird spiritualistic aspects of it, but I just don't buy into any of that. And so
00:27:38.580
whenever I have done yoga in the past, I haven't thought about these things. Like I'm not buying into
00:27:44.260
the aspects of it that don't align with my faith. So I think it's, I guess, I think it's fine for
00:27:49.580
churches and small groups to kind of redeem yoga or reclaim yoga. If you want to say that and use
00:27:54.840
it in a way that's glorifying to God, it's just using your body and meditation to be centered and
00:28:02.280
to maybe even focus on God more. Um, hi, Allie. I am a Furman alumna. Go Dens. Yes. Go Dens. Uh,
00:28:09.960
before my question, I just want to say that I wish I could put into words my gratitude for you,
00:28:14.520
for the example of the strong Christian and conservative woman that you have set for me.
00:28:18.160
Any example that you have set for me and for other young adults? Uh, thank you. I was just
00:28:24.080
wondering if you have any recommendations of small things someone with a busy schedule can
00:28:28.040
implement into their lives, uh, to stay well versed in politics. Great. Or, uh, thanks. I meant to say
00:28:36.320
thanks. Not great. Cause you said thanks at the end of your message, but then I wanted to say great
00:28:40.960
question. Um, so yes, it is, it can be really difficult and I think overwhelming to stay in the
00:28:48.360
know with every single detail of what's going on with, for example, the Russia investigation,
00:28:52.500
but I actually don't think that's necessary. Um, I like the skim because it's a very simple
00:28:59.580
breakdown of the most important things that are happening, not just in America, but also around
00:29:03.500
the world. Now, since Trump has taken office, they have become a little bit more partisan. So I do
00:29:09.560
recommend doing your own research. And what I do is I always try to research things from both sides of
00:29:15.460
the aisle. So I think it's interesting to go to foxnews.com and see the things that they're
00:29:20.020
reporting as most important, and then go to the New York times and see the things that they're
00:29:23.920
reporting as most important. A good kind of middle of the road, I think is the wall street journal.
00:29:27.940
Um, they are pretty good about being nonpartisan. Um, so I tried to do just a little bit of digging
00:29:36.180
on the most important stories from both sides, from both sides of the spectrum. I also like to,
00:29:41.940
uh, go on social media to see what everyone is talking about or what's kind of making people mad,
00:29:50.120
things like that. I follow a wide range of commentators on the left and the right,
00:29:54.400
just to see what kind of people are outraged by. That doesn't mean that's the most important
00:29:58.340
story of the day. You don't have to follow the outrage of people to prioritize your news stories,
00:30:04.140
but it's interesting. It's interesting to see, I think, uh, what people care about. So I think
00:30:09.120
just a quick skim, um, on social media and on two opposing, uh, news sites is a good way to just kind
00:30:16.960
of get a sense of what people are talking about and what people are caring about. Uh, you don't have
00:30:21.980
to be completely inundated in the details of the news and politics to be well-versed. Uh, drudge
00:30:27.480
report also kind of gives a lot of headlines that are good for staying generally in the know. And of
00:30:33.560
course you can continue to listening to listen to this podcast. I try to give you a good sense of
00:30:39.180
important things and how you can think about them. So anyway, thanks for listening. It's a great
00:30:45.260
question. Uh, what life experience impacted you the most? Um, I would say probably I worked at a
00:30:53.560
camp called camp Barnabas, which is in Missouri and it's a camp for kids and adults with special
00:30:57.880
needs. Uh, my brother has special needs, but I think I didn't, I didn't really understand the special
00:31:05.840
needs community until I worked at this camp for a summer. I had volunteered there in the past. And then
00:31:11.540
I actually worked there on staff, uh, the summer, I think before college. And I think it really kind
00:31:20.680
of irreversibly like enlarged my heart for people that can't take care of themselves and just
00:31:26.920
vulnerable communities in general. And I also just found something in myself that I didn't know that I
00:31:35.040
had that much. I I've always kind of been an empathetic person. I just feel very strongly for
00:31:41.500
people. Um, and this, I think really just kind of dug deeply into that. And I think that it also
00:31:49.380
changed me spiritually as well, because I kind of saw in these kids and adults that really couldn't
00:31:54.400
do anything for themselves that needed to be taken care of the way that God sees us as well,
00:31:59.280
that we are completely helpless to help ourselves and we really have nothing to add to him. And yet
00:32:04.960
he chooses to spend time with us and to save us. So I think that that dynamic completely changed
00:32:11.220
my relationship with the Lord and really my relationship with other people and the idea
00:32:15.340
of justice and charity and helping people. And of course, getting married changed my life too.
00:32:20.720
You don't know how selfish you are until you have to lay down your conveniences for someone else.
00:32:28.860
And I've also heard that having kids shows you again, how selfish you are. So I'm looking forward
00:32:34.040
to that one day. Um, where do you see yourself in 10 years? No freaking clue. No idea. I wish I knew.
00:32:40.760
I don't, I doing some form of this and hopefully I have all of my children by then. Well, who knows?
00:32:47.440
Maybe I won't have all my kids by then. I'll be 36. Uh, I don't know. I don't know where I'll be in
00:32:52.420
life in 10 years. Uh, hopefully somewhere good. Uh, what motivates you as an individual? Uh, you guys
00:32:59.400
motivate me a lot. Uh, I, I just love hearing from you and hearing for the things that mean a lot to
00:33:05.420
you of, uh, what I do, the things that have an impact on you, the times that you tell me that I
00:33:10.800
cause you to think differently about something that really, really motivates me. And obviously I feel
00:33:16.620
like God put me on this earth for a specific purpose and that motivates me as well. The gospel
00:33:22.820
motivates me. Uh, last question for today. What is the end goal of the pro-life movement? When all
00:33:28.040
abortion is abolished, some would say that women would be charged with murder if they abort and
00:33:33.220
claim that the only abortionists that claim that only abortionists would be charged. If only
00:33:38.080
abortionists are charged with murder, wouldn't that be inconsistent? I have a heart for women,
00:33:41.900
but they, uh, if they hire a hitman to cut their child out of their womb, shouldn't they be charged
00:33:46.900
for murder too? I, uh, decided to end this, I guess, with the kind of heavy question. Um, I think
00:33:53.940
it's so difficult because logically and legally you would think that someone who decides to have
00:34:01.120
someone murder someone else would be, uh, charged with at the very least being complicit in murder
00:34:08.700
and should go to jail. But at the same time, I have a very difficult time justifying putting a truly
00:34:16.040
desperate woman who feels she's wrong, but she feels like abortion is her only choice. I have a very
00:34:21.160
difficult time saying that that person should be arrested and should go to jail. I feel like that
00:34:26.580
person needs help. Um, now not all women who have abortions are desperate. Some women obviously just
00:34:32.700
do it based on convenience. I don't know if you can take it on a case by case basis. Um, but there
00:34:37.820
are a lot of women who do it out of absolute desperation and who wrongly think that this is
00:34:42.420
their only choice. I would hate to put them in a more desperate situation and, uh, put them in jail.
00:34:47.560
Oh, that just, Oh, that just breaks my heart. I can't say that I'm for that, but I understand the
00:34:52.420
legal and logical question that why wouldn't they be punished for that? And I can't say that I know
00:34:57.940
the answer to it. I can't, I can't say that I know the right and moral answer to that. I do think
00:35:04.520
abortionists, uh, should be punished. Uh, but that's a little bit of a different situation. They
00:35:09.620
are removed from the emotions and the reality and the desperation of the circumstance that this
00:35:16.300
woman is possibly in and they are choosing to kill someone for money. That's, that seems to me a
00:35:23.260
little bit more depraved, a little bit more evil. So I know that that seems really subjective. I'm
00:35:29.700
not a judge. I'm also not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure what the law would be. Um, obviously I
00:35:35.140
believe in eliminating not just abortion, but then the felt need for abortion. So helping women who are
00:35:40.500
poor, helping women who need education, helping women who need to become citizens, helping women who need
00:35:45.620
a safe haven from abuse, abusive, uh, men. Um, so that is the hope that we give holistic care to
00:35:53.960
these women who feel like they're desperate and not just tell them that they can't get an abortion.
00:35:57.840
Although of course I believe that's important too, since the child's life is valuable. Uh, so I hope
00:36:02.720
that kind of gave, I mean, that's just my honest perspective. It's definitely not, um, the Bible truth
00:36:08.760
because I don't know, there's still more than I need to think about there, but I appreciate all of your
00:36:13.640
questions and I appreciate you guys listening. Love you. And I will see you here on Thursday.