Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 18, 2020


Ep 340 ｜ The End of Gender？ ｜ Guest： Dr. Debra Soh


Episode Stats

Length

57 minutes

Words per Minute

185.71796

Word Count

10,591

Sentence Count

483

Misogynist Sentences

22

Hate Speech Sentences

42


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable Happy Friday.
00:00:12.100 We have got a fascinating conversation for you today with Dr. Deborah So.
00:00:16.320 She wrote the book, The End of Gender.
00:00:19.460 So she is on the left side of the political ideological aisle.
00:00:22.960 She identifies as a feminist and she talks about how she has shifted in particular on
00:00:28.600 the subject of children transitioning their gender.
00:00:33.600 She is a scientist and through the scientific process, she came to a different conclusion
00:00:39.260 than the one that she had before.
00:00:40.640 And so she's going to give us all kinds of amazing insight today.
00:00:43.840 And I'm so excited for you to talk about that.
00:00:46.760 After our conversation, I have a little bit of commentary.
00:00:51.040 But for right now, without further ado, here is Dr. Deborah So.
00:00:58.600 Dr. So, thank you so much for joining me.
00:01:02.620 I'm really excited to talk about your book, The End of Gender.
00:01:05.760 We were saying before we started recording that my mom and I have both read this and it's
00:01:11.200 just been fascinating.
00:01:12.620 For those who might not be familiar, can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
00:01:19.140 Yeah, thank you so much.
00:01:20.060 I have to say for having me.
00:01:21.500 So I am a former academic sex researcher.
00:01:24.160 I have since made the change to journalism.
00:01:27.380 So as you mentioned, my first book, The End of Gender, has just come out with Simon & Schuster.
00:01:31.420 And I had noticed during the last few years of my PhD, when I was still in academia, that
00:01:36.620 the climate was changing.
00:01:38.140 I noticed that there were more and more things that legitimate experts didn't want to talk
00:01:42.940 about.
00:01:43.280 They didn't want to research.
00:01:44.880 And there was one topic in particular pertaining to gender transitioning in very young children.
00:01:49.580 So I wrote an op-ed speaking to the scientific research that shows that early transitioning
00:01:55.000 is not actually the best way forward for these children, because the vast majority of them
00:01:59.080 are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood and not be transgender.
00:02:03.240 And by publishing that op-ed was essentially me self-exiling from academia.
00:02:07.500 So it's been, I'm, you know, I've never looked back.
00:02:11.220 I'm really happy that I made that decision.
00:02:12.880 As we see the things that have been happening more recently, when anyone really tries to
00:02:17.620 question anything about transgender orthodoxy or anything pertaining to gender, they really
00:02:22.880 pay a price for it.
00:02:24.560 Now, why do you think that is, that the attitude seems to have shifted from scientific research
00:02:32.020 to almost what is kind of referred to as scientism, this idea that you start with a foregone conclusion
00:02:36.960 and you only highlight the data that fits into the conclusion that you had already made.
00:02:45.100 What do you think has caused that shift in academia and in science?
00:02:50.620 Well, I think at the core, most people are empathic, they're compassionate, and that's a good thing.
00:02:56.160 But I really think it's gone way too far in the opposite direction, because I do think people with
00:03:00.600 gender dysphoria, trans people, anyone who is basically different, especially when it comes to their gender,
00:03:04.800 they have faced discrimination, legitimate discrimination in the past, but now we've gone so far in the
00:03:10.160 complete opposite direction that it really is, anything goes, and to challenge that is seen as
00:03:14.880 hateful and bigoted. And I also think it's because the academy has been taken over by activists.
00:03:22.140 So when you look at, say, within academia, even scientific disciplines now are being tainted by
00:03:27.560 activism. You have professors who are in disciplines that know nothing about science, who are actually been
00:03:32.200 given precedents in terms of their opinions, in terms of their so-called papers, even though
00:03:38.280 they aren't scientific. A lot of their papers are not based in anything factual or in any sort of
00:03:43.840 reality, but they are actually being given more weight than scientific research, legitimate scientific
00:03:49.620 research. And then we see this also spreading into, outside of the academy with regard to, say, media,
00:03:54.880 with tech. It's, it's everywhere. This ideology is everywhere. And I think most people are
00:04:01.060 understandably afraid to push up against it. One, because it can cost them their career and also
00:04:05.880 their personal reputations.
00:04:08.120 I am not a scientist, but from my understanding, you start with a hypothesis and then you go into the
00:04:15.320 research and you publish the conclusion based on the actual data, no matter whether or not it matched
00:04:21.220 with your hypothesis. Obviously, as you've just explained, a lot of people are uncomfortable
00:04:25.960 with that. And that's also what happened to you. You thought at one point that the correct path for
00:04:31.680 children who struggled or had some kind of gender confusion or gender dysphoria was to transition.
00:04:37.600 But as you researched, that conclusion didn't match your hypothesis. Is that, is that correct?
00:04:45.160 Yeah. I mean, as a scientist and a scientist by training, as you're saying, you, you form hypotheses.
00:04:50.600 And wherever the data take you, that's where you land in terms of what your final conclusions are.
00:04:55.920 That's how a good study is done. That's the only way you can get any sort of proper understanding or
00:05:00.840 any sort of approximation of the truth. So myself, I used to think that early transitioning was the
00:05:05.900 best way for kids with gender dysphoria, because to me, it superficially made sense. If someone is
00:05:10.980 struggling in their birth sex, they're uncomfortable in their bodies. Why wouldn't you want to help those
00:05:16.400 children feel more comfortable? But as I mentioned, all of the research literature shows that these
00:05:21.940 kids are more likely to grow up to be gay. They're not going to be gender dysphoric. They're going to
00:05:26.000 be perfectly content in their bodies past puberty. And so it doesn't make sense for them to transition
00:05:30.520 prior to that point, because there's a good chance that they're going to change their minds.
00:05:35.160 And so for myself, as I read the research papers and I learned more about the issue, I realized,
00:05:40.780 okay, I'll change my opinion because that's what a good scientist does. But as you're saying,
00:05:45.380 now what we see is people are basically reverse engineering science to fit whatever their
00:05:49.960 particular goal is. And in this case, they generally are goals that have been determined
00:05:54.100 by activist organizations. The activism is now spread into scientific organizations and medical
00:05:59.000 organizations. So we see a completely anti-scientific approach when it comes to anything
00:06:03.920 to do with gender identity.
00:06:06.480 And people get really angry when someone like you or a journalist like Abigail Schreier,
00:06:10.760 brings up that, hey, there are consequences to this. And we're actually not basing these
00:06:16.240 prescriptions for children on science, but rather on politics. Why do you think it is? And maybe you've
00:06:21.840 already answered it in your first answer about people who have different manifestations of gender
00:06:30.780 being discriminated. But why don't you think more people can just kind of agree, even if you think that
00:06:37.200 people should transition as adults with gender dysphoria, why can't more people just agree, okay,
00:06:42.180 maybe we should at least take a step back when it comes to kids? Why can't people agree that maybe
00:06:49.000 there needs to be a few more obstacles put up before we, for example, prescribe, you know, gender
00:06:55.420 or hormone blocking, hormone blockers to an 11 year old?
00:07:03.480 Right. And I'm in agreement. I do think that adults should be allowed to transition because
00:07:07.840 research does show it can help them. And I think an adult is, has obviously the cognitive capacity to
00:07:13.300 make that kind of a decision. But with the children, I think part of it is that activists who have
00:07:19.500 transition, now not all activists, because I have to say most, the most aggressive activists don't
00:07:26.600 speak for the community. And actually I have a lot of trans people who reach out to me and thank me
00:07:29.980 for what I'm saying, because they're horrified at some of the things that activists claim the
00:07:34.940 community wants when the community actually doesn't want those things. And many of them will say they
00:07:38.360 are not in favor of young children transitioning. So I really want to make that clear because I think
00:07:43.000 it's really unfortunate. I think a lot of the activists who claim to speak on behalf of the
00:07:47.180 community, in many cases, they aren't trans themselves, or they really are doing a disservice
00:07:51.160 to the people they claim to be supporting. In terms of why it's been so pushed with the
00:07:56.060 children, I think for some of these activists, they are projecting themselves on the kids. And
00:08:00.460 they're saying because they transitioned later in life, and they maybe would have benefited from
00:08:05.780 transitioning earlier, that any child who says they feel this way will similarly benefit from
00:08:11.060 transitioning at an earlier age. And I think also because the information that the public is being
00:08:17.180 shown is so biased that most people genuinely believe that these kids would benefit from it.
00:08:24.300 And that no matter what the costs are in terms of the medicalization, or the potential for regret,
00:08:30.220 that it's it's better that they are put down this path, because otherwise, they will commit suicide.
00:08:35.820 I mean, that's what they're being told, which is not true. It's not true. And, and I think also,
00:08:41.260 people, as I mentioned, are genuinely compassionate. So they it's a combination of that they don't want
00:08:46.300 these children to be struggling or suffering. And then they also are afraid that they see what
00:08:50.780 happens when someone like me speaks up about it and gets called transphobic, even though I know I'm
00:08:54.880 not I don't I don't have any issue with trans people. My concern is just that the approach with
00:08:58.920 these kids in particular, is not based in science. And we are going to see, I don't doubt it in a
00:09:04.220 couple years that there are going to be huge waves of detransitioners, children who have transitioned
00:09:08.420 who later changed their mind and regret it.
00:09:10.300 Can you talk about some of the physical psychological consequences that come with transitioning a
00:09:17.180 child or starting the transition for a child who probably would have grown up or grown out
00:09:23.900 of the gender dysphoria that their parents and maybe psychologists thought that they had as as kids?
00:09:30.380 Well, I would say the the biggest thing is if there is any sort of psychiatric comorbidity,
00:09:34.780 those issues are not being dealt with. So if someone has a mood disorder, if they have an eating
00:09:39.420 disorder, if they have a personality disorder, if they have sexual trauma, those things are not
00:09:44.380 currently being discussed in therapy for the most part. Very, very few clinicians are willing
00:09:48.780 to do any sort of therapy that is not facilitating transitioning, especially in kids, because they
00:09:54.860 run the risk of losing their license because so-called conversion therapy for gender identity is banned
00:10:01.100 in 20 states. Here in Canada, it's about to be criminalized. So conversion therapy for sexual
00:10:06.300 orientation and for gender identity are different things. And I always want to stress that I'm not
00:10:10.620 in favor of conversion therapy for sexual orientation because sexual orientation is immutable. It can't be
00:10:15.900 changed. But gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation. And it can change in children,
00:10:21.100 young children, especially because they they're developing, they're still trying to understand who
00:10:24.860 they are. So in terms of the side effects. So if you take cross-sex hormones, you face potential
00:10:34.620 infertility, say testosterone, as we see with the wave of people born female who are presenting with
00:10:42.220 rapid onset gender dysphoria. So they present with a sudden desire to transition to male or a third gender,
00:10:49.580 often very quickly out of the blue, with no previous history of gender dysphoria. If they take
00:10:54.300 testosterone, I mean, it permanently changes their voice, they will have facial hair, there will be
00:11:00.060 changes to their sexual anatomy. And, and the public is being told that it is completely safe for and
00:11:11.260 harmless for a child to socially transition, because that doesn't involve medical interventions. But
00:11:17.100 that's not true. Because research does show that even a social transition is associated with going on
00:11:22.940 to medical interventions. And something like, say, puberty blockers is associated with going on to
00:11:27.900 cross-sex hormones. So it's, it's very difficult for a child who is receiving a lot of attention and
00:11:33.260 praise and admiration from the adults in their, their life, from their peers, for them to suddenly turn
00:11:39.900 around at some point and say, actually, I made a mistake. And I've been asking everyone in my life to
00:11:45.020 call me this new name, and to refer to me by a different, the opposite sex or a different gender. I changed my mind,
00:11:51.420 and I want to go back to how I was being referred to before, it can be really shameful. And I think
00:11:57.260 people really miss, miss, um, underestimate how difficult it is for a child who has gone so far
00:12:04.380 at each milestone to actually turn around and decide that they, they were wrong.
00:12:09.180 Right. You mentioned that in your research, and I've heard you talk about this before that you have
00:12:14.380 found that sexual orientation is immutable. Do you also believe then that, um, someone who,
00:12:22.860 an adult who identifies as a different gender, you also, it sounds like you believe that that is
00:12:29.660 immutable as well, because you support transition for adults. So can you talk about what, what you
00:12:35.100 found or what you believe the biological difference is there between someone who says that they're
00:12:41.980 homosexual versus someone who says that they are a different gender?
00:12:47.420 Right. So there is a bit of overlap in terms of sexual orientation and gender identity when we look
00:12:52.540 at, say, uh, brain imaging studies. So in the book, I, I talk about the different, um, subtypes for
00:12:59.100 people who are trans and it is divided based on sexual orientation. So say if we have a trans woman,
00:13:04.860 so someone who's born male and identifies as female, her brain was likely shifted in the direction of
00:13:11.740 female in terms of prenatal, uh, hormone exposure. And so someone who is born male identifies as female
00:13:18.700 and is attracted to men is considered, um, from a sexological perspective to be gay. So attracted to
00:13:26.780 the same sex. And so sexology is the scientific study of sex and gender. So whether that individual
00:13:33.420 chooses to identify as male and unlikely, a gay male versus a trans woman who's attracted to men
00:13:39.900 can be influenced by culture. I think it can also be influenced by the extent of that individual's
00:13:46.140 biology. So, um, in terms of the brain imaging research, it does show that sexual orientation
00:13:51.740 is something that is hardwired in the brain. And there are differences between say,
00:13:55.420 gained straight men. Um, but I'm not sure if that answers your question in terms of what the difference
00:13:59.820 is. I think the biggest, the biggest takeaway I have is, um, there have been studies that have
00:14:04.700 come out saying that gender dysphoria is something hardwired also in the brain. But the issue is that
00:14:11.900 those studies are conflated with sexual orientation because all of the people who are scanned, who have
00:14:16.860 their brains scanned in those studies also are sexually attracted to people who share their birth
00:14:21.580 sex. So when you look at the results, you're, it's not clear whether what you're seeing is, uh,
00:14:26.300 the differences in their brain. You don't know if it's due to the fact that they are
00:14:29.820 same sex or attracted to someone of the same sex and gay, or because they are gender dysphoric.
00:14:35.260 And then I also talk about how the trans women, there is another subtype, um, for whom their desire
00:14:41.020 to transition is motivated by, uh, sexual arousal. But I always want to emphasize, I don't think that's
00:14:47.340 a reason again for people to, to not transition. I don't think that should justify discrimination against
00:14:52.300 trans people. I just think it's really important that we talk about this honestly, because
00:14:56.300 that is the only way we're going to actually help this population. If there are certain truths that
00:15:00.220 are deemed hateful and that, that are supposed to be swept under the rug, it's not going to help
00:15:04.220 someone because if they transition and it's ultimately not what's right for them, again,
00:15:07.740 they're going to have regret and they're going to have to live with these potentially irreversible
00:15:11.820 side effects. So there are people, I actually interviewed someone on my podcast who,
00:15:16.620 he transitioned as an adult, um, now, and you know, he obviously thought that that was right for him at
00:15:22.700 the time. He ended up, I, he ends up de-transitioning and realizes that there were a lot of things in
00:15:28.220 his life that led to that. He had a grandmother that dressed him in dresses when he was, um, a child
00:15:33.820 and he believes that kind of led to him believing that he should be a woman and de-transitioned. But,
00:15:38.780 um, obviously he no longer identifies in that way and sees that a lot of it was trauma induced. And so,
00:15:47.900 obviously his story is legitimate and he helps a lot of people who have been in his same situation.
00:15:53.820 There are also adults that say, you know, I thought that I was gay, that I identified as gay.
00:15:59.580 I was in male and male relationships and then they no longer are. Do you believe that those people
00:16:06.140 are, are lying? Do you think that's impossible?
00:16:11.420 It's hard for me to say without actually speaking to someone who has had that experience. And I,
00:16:15.820 I definitely don't want to sound like I'm casting judgment on anybody. Um, I just,
00:16:19.900 I always want to speak to the scientific research and in terms of the work that my colleagues are
00:16:23.820 doing, I mean, these are world experts on research pertaining to sexual orientation and it is
00:16:28.620 biological. So I would say for maybe someone who's not comfortable with that, I mean, my,
00:16:34.220 my take would be to grow comfortable with, with who you are, but if it's something that say someone,
00:16:39.820 I mean, I've heard, I've heard individual cases where say someone wants to have a traditional family.
00:16:44.140 Um, and so they, they, they struggle with the idea of being in a relationship or, uh, being with
00:16:51.420 someone who is of the same sex as them. But, um, I mean, I, I, I guess I come from a different
00:16:57.740 perspective in that way. I, I, I myself, I grew up in the gay community. So I'm, I'm a big supporter
00:17:02.540 of gay rights and I, I just don't think me personally that there's anything wrong with, with being gay.
00:17:08.140 So I would, I would ask someone to, to ask why they're uncomfortable with that.
00:17:13.820 Yeah. I don't think I'm necessarily even talking about whether it's right or wrong,
00:17:18.140 but I'm trying to, cause I'm sure people are wondering about that. Like what really is the
00:17:22.940 difference? Because it sounds like you prescribe kind of, um, or you approach a child or a person
00:17:29.980 who says that they're gay, you approach that differently than you would approach a minor saying
00:17:34.300 that they are the different gender. And I understand why, because there are prescriptions
00:17:39.500 and there are, uh, medical treatments that are associated with, you know, juvenile gender dysphoria
00:17:46.300 that actually does have an effect on them for the rest of your life. But I'm trying to satiate,
00:17:50.540 satiate some people's curiosity out there who might be wondering, hang on, like, what is the difference?
00:17:55.580 Because like you said, a lot of people conflate, uh, sexual orientation with gender identity.
00:18:00.380 I think that there's a lot of people outside of the scientific community that probably do that too.
00:18:04.540 And they might just be wrestling with knowing the difference and wrestling with knowing how do I
00:18:09.420 view these things differently? If we're okay with talking about transgenderism like this,
00:18:13.820 why aren't we okay with talking about sexual orientation like this? And so I was just trying
00:18:17.980 to kind of get you to, um, explain what you think the differences are to try to kind of clarify
00:18:24.300 that for some people. Um, I don't know if there's anything you want to add. If not,
00:18:28.380 then that's, that's fine too. I think that you did a good job of explaining that.
00:18:33.180 I think the only thing I would add is for the kids, especially because children with
00:18:36.860 gender dysphoria and children who are gender nonconforming. So kids who behave more like
00:18:41.180 the opposite sex than their birth sex. So if you have a little boy who's very feminine,
00:18:44.940 he prefers girls toys like dolls. His, his friends are all girls. He wants to wear dresses and
00:18:49.660 wear his hair long. Um, that is that kind of behavior is, is associated with, uh,
00:18:58.060 later growing up to be gay. So what happens is if you take a child like that and you actually
00:19:03.260 transition them to the opposite sex, they are more, they will grow up to appear to be straight.
00:19:07.900 Because if you have a little boy who's, who grows up to be attracted to men, if he transitions to
00:19:13.100 female, when she grows up, she's going to appear to be a straight woman. So I'm not sure if that helps
00:19:17.500 to clarify. I understand the confusion there. Um, but I, I would, I just always go back to the
00:19:22.380 research and I, if sexual orientation is shown to be something that is hardwired in the brain
00:19:26.460 and it can't be changed. I think the way we approach that, and, and even in say children
00:19:31.180 who are pubertal and coming to realize, uh, whom they're attracted to in terms of their romantic
00:19:36.300 partners, uh, that, that is different from, uh, the fact that for gender identity, it can change in
00:19:43.180 children. Okay. Okay. I'm sure that there's probably, I'd be interested to hear other
00:19:48.860 perspectives on that since you do support adults transitioning. And you do think that there is
00:19:54.860 some biological factor when it comes to adults transitioning, that they can't actually change
00:19:59.820 that, that the best route for them is transitioning. So it almost sounds like in some cases you do
00:20:04.460 believe that your gender identity is biological and can actually be different than your physical
00:20:11.500 anatomy, correct? I do because it, again, it's associated with prenatal hormonal, uh, exposure.
00:20:19.420 So it, in terms of how the brain develops, um, I, in the book, I talk about some criticisms that, uh,
00:20:27.100 someone like me will face for being in support of adults transitioning and in their comparisons
00:20:31.980 there to, um, say like eating disorders or, um, being transracial. I don't think those are
00:20:39.740 similar comparisons because there are no, even if there are brain correlates associated with say
00:20:46.460 eating disorders by someone, um, by encouraging someone to, uh, indulge in their eating disorder,
00:20:55.580 that's quite harmful to them. Whereas research meta-analyses have shown that transitioning in
00:21:01.180 adults can help them actually alleviate gender dysphoria, can help them alleviate other mental health,
00:21:06.220 um, issues they may be experiencing. So, um, you know, I, at the end of the day,
00:21:11.180 it does just come down to the research and what it's, I think probably people making those comparisons
00:21:16.460 and I'm, I'm not a scientist. I'm just trying to think through that reasoning is that they're probably
00:21:20.940 also looking at the physical consequences to even an adult transitioning that I know you write about in
00:21:26.080 your book. There's the possibility of atrophy, obviously pumping your body with different hormones
00:21:31.340 than the natural hormones that it's making has some, you know, it has some physical consequences.
00:21:37.980 And so I think people are probably thinking not just about the, the, the internal aspect of gender
00:21:43.420 dysphoria, but also they're thinking, okay, well, eating disorders have physical consequences and
00:21:49.420 transitioning, especially, especially surgical transitioning has physical consequences. And I
00:21:54.220 think that there's probably some legitimate concern there from, from critics of, of your line of,
00:22:01.420 of reasoning. Would you, do you kind of agree with that or see that side of it?
00:22:07.020 Oh, I, I definitely see it. And I definitely think a good mental health professional will
00:22:11.580 do a rigorous assessment to determine whether transition is right for somebody. I definitely
00:22:16.780 don't think it should be as it is now, which is, it is basically taken at face value if someone wants
00:22:21.420 to transition. I think even in adults that there should be, I don't think heavy gatekeeping is a
00:22:26.940 good thing because I do think people should be able to access the care and support that they deserve.
00:22:31.340 But at the same time, you need to be asking the right questions because if it is due to something
00:22:36.300 else, if there are other mental health conditions, or if there is some sort of comorbidity that needs
00:22:40.860 to be looked at too. I don't think it should be just because you're an adult that a hundred percent
00:22:45.900 we're on board with this. But I just think that that adults do obviously have greater emotional
00:22:51.420 maturity. They understand the consequences of, of these interventions in a way that a child cannot
00:22:56.620 understand them. And so it's just that we can't have a conversation on, regardless of which side
00:23:02.060 you, you fall down, fall on. It just, this issue should not be so polarized. It should not be so political.
00:23:07.980 Right. Right. And that's what I was going to ask as well, because we talk about how there just
00:23:12.620 aren't enough obstacles. I won't even say obstacles, but I guess that is what comes to mind,
00:23:18.860 barriers or questions or people kind of pushing back on even children who are saying, you know,
00:23:23.900 I kind of just decided that I am a different gender. As Abigail Schreier talks about, there can
00:23:28.460 be, especially among, among young girls, a social contagion aspect for some teenage girls,
00:23:33.980 at least that feel like they're the different gender. They can walk into a Planned Parenthood in
00:23:38.620 some states at the age of 15 and say, okay, I want testosterone. I want different hormones.
00:23:43.580 And the state, I mean, they are required. Planned Parenthood is required to say, yes,
00:23:48.860 and no one's questioning what else is going on. What's going on at home? What's going on at school?
00:23:53.340 What are your friends doing? Like you said, what are the other psychological issues that might be going
00:23:58.620 on? And I guess you just answered this, but do you think that's a big problem among adults too?
00:24:04.780 Because you do mention, which is obviously true, that the frontal lobe is developed for adults,
00:24:09.820 that they're able to make decisions for themselves and actually see consequences that young people
00:24:14.460 aren't. But if there are other psychological issues there, that decision-making could be
00:24:20.460 inhibited in some way. It could also be affected by society or other, you know, external factors in
00:24:27.580 some way. So do you think that scientists and doctors are doing a good enough job even with adults
00:24:32.860 to say, hey, we need to explore all avenues before we make this permanent decision possibly
00:24:40.860 about your life and your identity?
00:24:44.540 I definitely think that there needs to be more concern in terms of, even with adults,
00:24:49.500 in terms of doing, as I mentioned, the proper assessment and determining whether transition
00:24:53.660 is actually right for them. Because I do think adults will be affected in terms of
00:24:57.820 de-transitioning. And we'll see a huge spike in terms of the number of people who are experiencing
00:25:03.340 this regret, as I said, in a couple of years. So I have one of the people I talked to in the trans
00:25:10.300 community who say transition over 10 years ago will say that it is completely different now. And
00:25:15.420 what they experienced and the hoops they had to jump through, although they were difficult at times,
00:25:20.460 I think there still needs to be some level of that. And even just some basic questions in terms of
00:25:26.380 why do you want to transition? And why do you think this is going to help you? Or what does your gender
00:25:31.340 mean to you? Things like that are completely taken off the table now. So this approach that is,
00:25:37.740 I think, initially guided by people wanting to be more accepting, I think is really going to do
00:25:42.460 a disservice. And I think there's going to be a backlash, unfortunately, potentially to the community,
00:25:47.180 because when all of these people, adults and children, start de-transitioning in a few years,
00:25:53.660 I think people are going to grow more skeptical of the community and say, well, this is what you
00:25:57.980 were supposedly asking for and look at what the effects of that are. So I guess I would really
00:26:01.980 ask your audience not to judge the average transgender person based on this extreme ideology
00:26:08.700 and these extreme demands, because most of them are not on board with that.
00:26:13.020 Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it scares a lot of people, not not the people, but the ideology itself
00:26:18.620 and seeing some of the aggressive people that have infiltrated, you know, even our political arena
00:26:24.860 that are pushing, you know, particular bills. I know there was one in Victoria, Australia, which
00:26:30.060 basically, you know, you talked about the difference between any kind of abusive conversion therapy and
00:26:36.140 actually just some kind of healthy psychological, you know, counseling for young people. And Victoria,
00:26:43.900 this bill is being passed that says, you know, you can't do any of that. You can't even travel
00:26:47.820 out of the province in order to get that. You can't pray out loud to your child. And I know that
00:26:53.580 you and I don't agree on, you know, necessarily theological issues, but I think we'd probably agree
00:26:59.020 that's a free speech and First Amendment issue. That's a parental rights issue. And so I think that a lot of
00:27:05.340 people are worried about that, not because they don't love transgender people or they think that
00:27:11.260 they're not valuable, but because the face of the transgender movement is very aggressive and it
00:27:16.700 feels predatory upon schools, upon churches, upon people's religious views, upon their children.
00:27:25.420 And so you can kind of understand why, unfortunately, the people who are represented in this community
00:27:32.060 and the actual movement itself and the politics and the aggression that they represent get conflated.
00:27:37.900 And people on the outside of it are very protective and are very worried about it.
00:27:44.060 Oh, I told I do totally get that. I mean, I I'm a liberal and I I'm super concerned because I think
00:27:49.980 this makes all liberals look bad and because very few liberals seem to be willing to challenge it.
00:27:54.460 But I think there are going to be huge repercussions as a result of this. And it adds also further to
00:28:01.180 the political divisiveness that we see more broadly. And I think that's it's really not a good direction
00:28:06.540 that we're headed in, whether you're looking at, say, gender or race or any of any of these points.
00:28:11.660 So especially with education, I get the concern there because children don't know any better. And if they're
00:28:17.900 being taught ridiculous things like biological sex is a spectrum or that people can identify as a
00:28:24.460 million different genders, I get why people are saying, well, we don't want anything to do with
00:28:29.180 this. So I should mention in the book, I go through nine different myths and I use a scientific approach
00:28:35.740 to debunking these myths and explaining why they are not true. And so some of those myths, I mean,
00:28:41.100 these are things that are being taught in children's curriculum, things like biological sex is a
00:28:45.820 spectrum, that gender is a social construct, that gender neutral parenting works, that there are no
00:28:51.820 sex differences in terms of dating and relationships when it comes to men and women. And I just think
00:28:57.820 more broadly, it's really harmful for society because we don't understand each other properly.
00:29:02.300 And it's really impeding our ability to have a proper understanding of really anything. I mean,
00:29:08.380 when science is now being denied and being denigrated and these crazy ideas are instead
00:29:14.540 being lifted up as though they are the truth, it's not going to be good for our society.
00:29:20.380 And some, I would say, liberal ideas or leftist ideas are being challenged, I would say,
00:29:27.900 by transgender ideology. You said that you grew up in the gay community and that's something that you're
00:29:32.780 supportive of. But the logic of transgenderism kind of challenges that a little bit, because if,
00:29:39.420 say, okay, trans men are men, that's something that we hear a lot and that it doesn't matter whether
00:29:46.460 it's whether someone has transitioned or not, it's really just something that you can declare that you
00:29:51.820 identify as. And that's as far as the definition of male really goes. And so if you are, if you are a
00:29:59.020 homosexual man who is attracted to men, you are then supposed to be, according to transgender ideology,
00:30:05.820 and again, this doesn't represent everyone in the transgender community, but what we're told from
00:30:09.660 the activists is that you have to also be attracted to transgender men who are actually biological
00:30:16.460 females. And so there's a lot of confusion and a lot of dissonance when it comes to, you know,
00:30:22.940 different forms of sexuality. They don't seem to be congruent with these transgender mantras that
00:30:30.220 trans men are men and trans women are women. It's very confusing, especially for just the average
00:30:36.700 observer, don't you think? Absolutely. And I write in the book about how this leftist infighting is
00:30:43.020 probably pretty funny for people on the outside to watch because it's like everyone is eating their
00:30:47.740 own. It's not funny. I mean, I would say that it's a little funny, but it's also
00:30:54.620 a little sad. I know you and I are on totally different sides of the aisle, ideologically,
00:30:58.620 politically, uh, religiously. And that's why I'm so excited to, to have you on, but yes,
00:31:03.580 from our perspective and, you know, particularly from a Christian perspective, I'm like,
00:31:08.380 yeah, this is what happens. Things are confusing when you don't have any kind of, you know, what I
00:31:13.340 believe, I know you disagree with this, any kind of moral foundation for what is right and what is
00:31:17.660 wrong and what is good is what is bad and what is bad. Yeah. Things are going to get really confusing
00:31:22.460 when you don't have any kind of transcendent source of truth that tells you what is and what isn't,
00:31:28.060 it's, it's up for grabs. Anyone can say what is and what isn't. I mean, what is reality? What is
00:31:33.020 absolute truth? What is morality? And so, yes, from my perspective, it does seem like everyone's just
00:31:39.740 real confused and I'm just glad that I don't have to participate in it.
00:31:44.740 Well, I have to say, I appreciate you having me on knowing that we have those differences and that
00:31:48.380 you were willing to read my book, knowing that there are probably a number of things that you
00:31:52.660 disagree with in the book as well. But I, I think that's the way, you know, I, I also try to go
00:31:57.740 outside of my comfort zone and seek information and resources that I may not agree with just to
00:32:03.980 understand the other side. So yeah, definitely with say something like sexual orientation, if you
00:32:09.020 have, we see how this is, this is playing out in the lesbian community and, and I'm, I'm a straight
00:32:13.860 woman, but from what I've seen, um, you will have, because what used to be considered, um, so sexual
00:32:20.900 orientation is supposed to be based on sex, but now it's being, uh, defined as gender. So someone who
00:32:27.640 identifies as a woman should be viewed as a woman. I have no issue referring to trans women as women,
00:32:33.180 but also with the acknowledgement that there are some differences. And I have a chapter in the book
00:32:38.060 that's that specifically talks about this with regard to, um, being in the, say in the bedroom,
00:32:43.260 our relationships with sport, with prisons, um, women's spaces, language, everything. And so with
00:32:50.180 say lesbians who are attracted to women, you have some trans women, not all, but some who will say,
00:32:55.960 well, because I identify as a woman, you should also be attracted to me. And lesbians are saying,
00:33:00.080 but you are not the same as a woman who was born a woman, especially if someone is preoperative.
00:33:07.120 So, um, there's definitely been some, some clashes in terms of the factions on the left, but
00:33:13.540 again, uh, let's say something like language as well. I mean, there, there's a lot of fighting
00:33:19.300 right now with regard to, um, some people who say that we should just use gender neutral language
00:33:25.620 and other people saying, no female words that refer to women's bodies and reproductive capabilities
00:33:33.400 are important. And, and it's basically the, the erasure of women to deny us that.
00:33:41.460 Yeah. Do you, do you agree with that? I'm, I'm curious, you know, I'm, uh, I've got one child and
00:33:47.520 I'm pregnant with my next. And so I'm on, you know, I follow a lot of, uh, of, of the birth
00:33:53.080 world. I listened to a lot of, you know, pregnancy birth podcasts and I follow a lot of those
00:33:57.620 Instagrams. And honestly, it, it makes me uncomfortable to see words like chest feeding
00:34:03.240 or birthing persons or gender neutral terms, because, and I have to like check myself. I'm
00:34:10.840 like, why does that bother me so much? And it does feel like the eraser of women. And
00:34:15.520 that's not to say that women's only value or uniqueness is being able to have kids. Obviously
00:34:20.300 there are, you know, equally feminine women who, who never have kids, but it is something
00:34:25.340 that is very unique about women and has been for a long time, almost seen as some kind of
00:34:30.960 exclusively feminine superpower. And now we're saying that there's nothing feminine about it at all.
00:34:36.740 There's nothing female about it, that it has nothing to do with your anatomy. And there seems to just
00:34:41.780 be a loss of value there, especially from the very people who say that they are the champions
00:34:47.800 for women. I don't know. There's definitely a double standard because you don't see the same
00:34:52.880 thing happening when it comes to referring to male body parts or male reproductive function.
00:34:59.500 There's no qualification when, when say news headlines come out or when studies come out,
00:35:04.640 they are not qualifying the word man or male. They're not saying, Oh, this is what we mean.
00:35:09.100 But if, if there's any reference to anything that has to pertain to being female or a woman,
00:35:14.180 they will qualify and say, well, we're not, of course say something like being a mother.
00:35:18.100 The most recent example I saw was birthing person. So they're saying that not everyone who gives birth
00:35:23.900 is a woman and not all women give birth. And I think, yes, okay, we can, we can acknowledge that
00:35:30.040 to some degree that there are exceptions in that way, but why is it that using the word mother is seen
00:35:35.080 as hateful? I think that's one step too far. And I, again, I think it alienates people from
00:35:39.700 wanting to be in favor or support of the trans community or what these activists are
00:35:44.100 at the core requesting, which is hopefully just equal rights and not trying to, to, well, I mean,
00:35:50.320 I don't think that's what the movement stands for anymore, but I, I have no issue with, with
00:35:54.220 advocating for equal rights for trans people or people who are different, but I don't think the
00:35:59.500 way to do that is to, to tell a particular group that who they are is hateful.
00:36:05.180 Right. Yeah. You touched on something that I've, I've thought about before. Why do you think it is
00:36:11.380 that there seems to be more sensitivity and more dogmatism surrounding, um, female adjectives
00:36:20.220 and female words and making sure that it's inclusive as men who identify as women, but we don't see that
00:36:26.840 as much the other way, the other way around. Like, why is there such an emphasis on making sure
00:36:34.480 that, um, you know, transgender women, biological males are able to enter women's spaces? I mean,
00:36:42.560 we talk a lot about the locker rooms, the sports teams, the women's shelters, uh, the prisons,
00:36:47.560 and making sure that, uh, we are properly acknowledging their place in these female spaces,
00:36:56.040 but we very rarely see it the other direction. Why do you think that is?
00:37:00.880 I get asked that question a lot and I always want to be really careful the way I answer it.
00:37:05.460 I would just say, I mean, the average trans man, you rarely see trans men screaming about any of
00:37:11.580 these issues. They really just transition and they want to get on with their day. And I say power to
00:37:15.660 them. Uh, I think if you, what, what can I really say? But I think if you look at trans women and look at
00:37:22.520 trans men and look at what is the defining difference there, that will probably tell you
00:37:26.640 why. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also interesting because we're talking about, as we're talking about all
00:37:33.800 this, we're talking about a very strict gender binary. Like we're talking about males transitioning
00:37:38.740 to female and female transitioning to male, but the very same people who are using that language are at
00:37:45.440 the same time saying there's, um, there's, you know, countless genders. There's a million different
00:37:49.640 genders. Gender is fluid. It's not a binary, but they kind of lie on themselves a little bit when
00:37:55.760 they talk about transitioning and they talk about different spaces, having access to different
00:38:00.900 spaces based on, uh, based on their identity as a male or a female. Is there any acknowledgement
00:38:08.520 in the, you know, frontline to the trans activist community that there's a, some dissonance there
00:38:14.380 in those two arguments? Yeah, because it's weird because the being transgender used to refer to
00:38:21.940 someone who identified as the opposite sex, which operates within sex and gender being binary as they
00:38:28.040 are, uh, which science isn't supportive. Um, and now what you're seeing is this group of people who
00:38:35.560 identify as a third gender or as non-binary or some other non-male and non-female gender saying that
00:38:41.800 they too are part of the trans community. And I, part of it is this larger widening of the
00:38:48.520 transgender umbrella to encompass anyone who is gender non-conforming, anyone who's different in
00:38:53.840 terms of their gender to include cross-dressers and cross-dressing is something completely different.
00:38:59.200 Um, so I think part of that is, is a, as a way to inflate numbers so that it, that activists can say,
00:39:05.240 well, look, if this percentage of the population identifies as transgender, this is further justification
00:39:10.540 for greater acceptance. And I, I'm in favor of greater acceptance. I just don't think we need
00:39:15.380 to inflate numbers to, to, uh, facilitate that. And so you will see people who are transgender,
00:39:22.300 who have, um, transitioned to the opposite sex, who've medically transitioned in many cases will say
00:39:28.020 we are not the same as people who are non-binary. I mean, for me to even say this, this is considered
00:39:33.400 hateful and transphobic. And I just think that's ridiculous because science does not back up the idea
00:39:38.020 that there are three genders, um, or that there are more than two. And, um, and also with, with say
00:39:44.780 non-binary people who identify this way usually will only change their haircut and take on some new
00:39:50.100 pronouns. They won't even medically transition. Uh, it's, it's to me seems like more of a fad or
00:39:56.020 something fashionable to do to fit in with your progressive friends. It's, and to me that comes
00:40:01.480 across as actually quite flippant to trans people who have transitioned to the opposite sex, because that is a, a,
00:40:08.020 big investment and a big endeavor, not just financially, I would say emotionally and mentally
00:40:13.300 as well. Yeah. So there is some fighting going on there too. And there are all of these, um,
00:40:20.340 these ideas that compete with one another there, they don't make a lot of sense.
00:40:25.020 So, uh, I, I think at the end of the day, people are hopefully going to, I think most people see it
00:40:30.020 and, but they're just afraid to call it out because they don't want to deal with the backlash that's
00:40:34.040 going to come from doing so. Yeah. I think one of the other competitive
00:40:38.840 ideas is that it's, it's not just that you, you know, are there two genders? Apparently there are
00:40:45.880 because you're talking about transitioning just from one to the other, or are there a million
00:40:49.900 different genders? Um, but it's, it's also the idea that gender is a social construct, but at the same
00:40:59.720 time, it seems to the people who are saying that gender is a social construct, that it's, um, that
00:41:05.480 it's very, that it's very real to them. If gender really was a social construct, then surely we
00:41:10.220 wouldn't be having such adamant and such passionate conversations. And so while they're simultaneously
00:41:16.440 saying gender, isn't real, it is very real to the people who are talking about it, or else we wouldn't
00:41:22.800 have laws trying to say that you have to call people by the right pronoun or else you're going to be
00:41:29.060 fined for it. Correct. It's, it's, that's another very weird contradiction. You have people saying
00:41:35.280 that gender is a social construct, but then there's also the idea that trans people have the wrong brain
00:41:39.920 sex in their body. So if gender is a social construct, how is that possible? And if gender
00:41:44.200 is a social construct, then why does someone who's trans need to undergo medical interventions in order
00:41:48.940 to live as the opposite sex? Why would they not be able to just construct their way there socially?
00:41:53.660 So, um, in terms of the research literature that shows gender is not a social construct,
00:41:58.380 that it is influenced by biology. It comes down to the prenatal environment. And as we touched on
00:42:03.040 earlier with trans people who identify more as the opposite sex, similarly stems from, from that,
00:42:09.500 uh, underlying cause. Yeah. So I don't think we have to pretend that, I mean, I'm sure I don't need
00:42:15.900 to argue with you about this necessarily, but I don't think we have to pretend that gender is a social
00:42:20.580 construct in order to advocate for equal rights for women. And I don't think that, um, acknowledging
00:42:26.720 biologically based sex differences between men and women is inherently sexist. It's only sexist what
00:42:32.380 people choose to do with that information if they choose to use that as a way to discriminate against
00:42:36.620 women. And I would go so far as to say that you can't assert that gender is a social construct and
00:42:42.300 fight for equal rights for women to, I mean, from my understanding, there really is no basis for
00:42:47.520 feminism. If feminism is a movement for the equality of women and recognizing the equal worth
00:42:54.820 of women, uh, which I have a lot of disagreements with feminist ideology in general, but if that is
00:43:00.520 in its purest form, what is supposed to be, uh, then there's really no basis for it. If there's no
00:43:07.420 definition of, of what a female is. I also think that a contradiction is that we are simultaneously,
00:43:16.100 uh, we're, we're simultaneously hearing, uh, that, um, I just lost, hang on. I just lost my train of
00:43:28.080 thought. I've been trying to ask this question for like five minutes and I, Oh, okay. Here's my
00:43:33.640 question. We're simultaneously hearing that. Okay. So it's fine for a man to, you know, wear a dress and
00:43:40.420 and do whatever he wants to do and still be a man. Um, but at the same time, we're seeing like
00:43:46.300 when Ellen page said that, you know, uh, that they're now, uh, that they're now Elliot page,
00:43:53.600 people started posting pictures of, um, from like 10 years ago, wearing baggy clothes and saying,
00:44:00.860 see, this has been the thing all along. So I'm like, okay, so if someone wears baggy clothes,
00:44:04.780 that means they're a boy. I'm just confused. Are we reinforcing these very, very strict,
00:44:09.860 uh, gender stereotypes that a little boy who wants to play with a Barbie when he's four is actually a
00:44:15.920 girl, or should we not be expanding those to say, okay, just because a girl wears baggy clothes,
00:44:21.000 doesn't, that doesn't make her a boy or just because a boy wants to do ballet or play with dolls,
00:44:25.560 that doesn't make him a girl. So there's also a contradiction there that I'm just not able to
00:44:30.180 reconcile. To me, it is quite regressive to say that, because I do see this happening more and
00:44:37.680 more now that if, if a child say wears sex, that is that the opposite sex tends to wear that that
00:44:43.000 is a sign that they actually are trans or that they are not really their sex. So if you have a
00:44:47.880 little girl who wants to wear boys clothing, that she must really be a boy. That to me is really
00:44:52.320 strange. And I don't see why a little girl can't wear boys clothes or vice versa. Um, going back to
00:44:58.460 your point about, uh, if gender is a social construct, I mean, I, that was one of the
00:45:02.340 biggest things that turned me off of feminism myself. I write in the book, how I used to really
00:45:05.980 be a hardcore feminist. And I just, as I learned more about the science and I realized that a lot
00:45:10.720 of feminist ideas are not backed by science, it was off putting because what you see then is women
00:45:16.480 will feel this pressure to be more like men, even if they aren't that way. I don't think there's
00:45:21.420 anything wrong for women to be more masculine or more male typical. But what happens when you say
00:45:26.520 that gender is a social construct is that masculinity remains the gold standard. And then femininity is
00:45:32.060 seen as aberrations of that. So I don't see that as actually helpful or empowering of women because
00:45:36.360 we're essentially telling women that in order to be treated equally or to be worthy of respect,
00:45:41.700 you have to be more like men. Right. So that seems like you said, very regressive. Do you think just
00:45:48.380 as we close this out that there are more people because of people like you, because of
00:45:54.440 detransitioners that are kind of speaking up about their experiences of maybe feeling like they were
00:45:59.280 either pressured or let too easily into transition when they were young, people like Abigail Schreier,
00:46:06.780 who are simply just telling stories without bias or without any kind of motivation, that there are
00:46:12.200 more people waking up to, at the very least, the danger that this is posing on children who really
00:46:21.540 just aren't being cared for the way that they should be cared for. Do you think that people
00:46:25.920 are starting to realize that? I think so. I actually see it happening more so in the UK right now. And
00:46:34.040 I'm hoping in North America that we'll catch up soon because we just had this, the ruling that
00:46:39.760 that was in favor actually of the young detransitioner. She sued the hospital who treated her.
00:46:44.140 Right. And, um, so she was born female, uh, began the process to transition to male. And then
00:46:50.540 in her early twenties said, actually, no, I'm going to go back to living as female. And so now in,
00:46:56.160 in the UK, um, they ruled that children under 16 do, cannot consent to puberty blockers. And if a child
00:47:03.380 does want to go down this path, that has to be court approved first. So that that's a landmark ruling.
00:47:09.280 I really was very surprised. I'm very happy that they ruled in her favor. I didn't, I didn't think
00:47:13.640 that was going to happen. So, um, I do think it will eventually come over here and we will start
00:47:20.060 to wake up more, but I, it's still very much glamorized, um, on this side of the pond. And,
00:47:26.100 and I think once the lawsuits start happening, as you said, and more detransitioners start coming out,
00:47:30.960 um, then people are not going to have a choice. They're not going to be able to turn a blind eye to it
00:47:35.620 or pretend as they are right now saying that these people don't exist or that they're so
00:47:40.140 statistically rare that they don't matter. Yeah. I mean, it's the same people who say that
00:47:44.780 they support kids transitioning or people transitioning because they want people to
00:47:49.880 identify as their authentic selves. They want them to be accepted, but the people who are
00:47:55.580 detransitioning are also living as their authentic selves. They are, they are telling their real stories
00:48:01.480 and they are detransitioning and say, no, this is who I am. This is how I identify. And yet the very
00:48:06.360 same people who are so empathetic towards people who transition, some of them are very cruel, outwardly,
00:48:13.960 explicitly cruel and repressive towards people who detransition. I guess it's because they feel that
00:48:20.080 it delegitimizes the entire idea of transgenderism. If someone can, can detransition, it kind of,
00:48:28.200 they probably feel delegitimizes the idea that a trans man is just a man, just as much a man as a
00:48:34.760 biological man. Well, that's obviously not true if someone can detransition into their, their
00:48:40.720 biological sex. So I don't know, maybe that's part of the anger behind it, but it does make me sad
00:48:45.800 because I know that young woman in the UK that she's received a lot of persecution for, for her case
00:48:51.540 and for speaking out. It is hypocritical because I don't understand why it is only one side has been
00:48:59.000 being given the empathy and being listened to. And I do sense that that is part of the reluctance that
00:49:05.440 say activist groups or people who otherwise would be very compassionate, why they are so quick to
00:49:10.480 dismiss detransitioners because they are afraid that they may be used as evidence as to why no one
00:49:17.840 should be allowed to transition. And, uh, I, I just think if this movement wants to continue
00:49:25.540 to gain support or to gain support from the average sane person, they would do them a lot of
00:49:32.440 good to take into consideration. Why did these, for the most part, young women decide to transition
00:49:38.260 so quickly? What went wrong there? Because that will help them better understand who will benefit
00:49:42.960 from transition. But when, when you try to suppress the information, it doesn't look good. And it makes
00:49:48.720 people wonder, well, what else are you hiding? What, why do you need to pretend this doesn't exist?
00:49:53.320 If what you are saying was legitimate. And I think for some people also, maybe they're in this
00:49:57.860 a similar position because when I talked to the, when I interviewed the detransitioners for my book,
00:50:01.760 they will say that the people who are the most cruel to them are the ones who themselves don't feel
00:50:07.440 secure in their decision to transition. And so I think for them, it may possibly be this nagging
00:50:13.280 feeling that was this really the right choice for them. I think if you make a huge decision like that
00:50:17.680 and you are secure in it and it was the right choice for you, you won't feel necessarily so
00:50:22.020 threatened by people who are changing their minds. Yeah. You know, it really is a shame and you're right.
00:50:27.480 It does for people who are on the outside looking in and are, who are still trying to understand,
00:50:32.960 uh, this whole thing, which feels like it has happened so quickly. I think what feels like
00:50:39.060 from, you know, like you've said, doesn't represent the entire transgender community,
00:50:43.220 but the frontline activism that is so aggressive and in some ways so cruel and is using legislation
00:50:48.720 to push this upon kids, using sex ed to push this upon kids. That's when people really start to
00:50:55.140 get defensive. Like, okay, we can have a conversation about adults, but you're coming after my kids at
00:51:00.460 school. There are laws that are now saying that if my kid says that they're a different gender at
00:51:04.540 school, that you don't have to tell me that my kid can now go to a Planned Parenthood and get,
00:51:08.580 and get hormones without my consent. You're, I mean, what you're doing is you're setting the entire
00:51:14.280 thing up to be completely bulldozed by people who don't want you coming after their kids.
00:51:20.640 And, um, man, it's just, I mean, it's just a mess. And I just really appreciate you making sense of it.
00:51:26.600 I appreciate your honesty and saying you started out with one conclusion and the science
00:51:30.340 led you to a different conclusion. And I know we probably disagree on a lot. Um, but I really,
00:51:36.020 really appreciate your work. I love your book and I just love your honesty and, um, how compassionate
00:51:41.760 you are while not being afraid to speak truth in a time when it's really, really unpopular. Um,
00:51:46.880 could you tell everyone where they can find you, where they can find the rest of your work and how
00:51:51.460 they can buy your book? Yep. So I'm on social media. I'm on Twitter at Dr. Deborah. So I'm on
00:51:57.680 Instagram at Dr. Deborah W. So I post all my work and my media appearances there. You can get the
00:52:04.300 end of gender on, uh, so there's hardcover ebook and audio book that is read by me. You can get it
00:52:10.560 on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, um, Indigo, pretty much everywhere you buy books. Uh, Barnes and Noble,
00:52:16.620 I think is the one retailer that does have it in store. So I would say, please go buy from them to
00:52:21.020 thank them for doing that. And, um, thank you so much for, for having me. I really appreciate it.
00:52:25.540 And I, I really appreciate this conversation. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much.
00:52:34.040 Thank you guys so much, uh, for listening to that conversation. She is an amazing follow and
00:52:40.220 amazing person to read as well. She's just got, her life is very interesting, first of all,
00:52:45.600 and her work has been very interesting as a sexologist. Obviously she and I, we have different
00:52:51.080 worldviews and I would love to have her back on to talk a little bit more about the fundamental
00:52:55.460 tools of that. You guys know where I stand on a lot of this from a Christian biblical perspective,
00:52:59.600 go back and listen to an episode that I did a couple of weeks ago called the biblical telos
00:53:04.340 of gender. Um, where we talk about what the Bible says about gender. I would, I would read her book.
00:53:11.660 Absolutely go out and get her book. I would read it along with another book that I promoted a lot,
00:53:16.580 which is love thy body by Nancy Piercy. I would love to have the two of them talk because I think
00:53:21.860 they agree on so much and they also have different perspectives, obviously on religion, but I think
00:53:26.540 also on psychology as well. So it'd be really interesting to hear that kind of academic,
00:53:30.840 um, discussion. So important that we talk about these, uh, these issues with people who don't
00:53:37.340 necessarily share all of our views. I think it sharpens us and it allows us to get a better
00:53:42.460 understanding, um, of what's going on and how other people see the issue. So I really hope that you
00:53:48.440 enjoy that conversation. So for the next couple of weeks, just to let you guys know,
00:53:52.980 because it's going to be Christmas next Friday, and then it's going to be new year's. I have already
00:53:57.860 pre-recorded episodes for you guys and never leave y'all hanging without content. Uh, so I have
00:54:03.220 interviews, um, coming out next Monday and Wednesday, and then the following Monday, Wednesday,
00:54:08.320 and then the following Monday. And then after that, after January 4th, we'll start those, uh,
00:54:13.940 new episodes. And so, um, you're really going to love the interviews that I've already pre-recorded.
00:54:19.540 I've been like super anxious for them to come out because they're really fascinating conversations.
00:54:23.600 And so I'm so excited for you to listen to them. So be on the lookout for those episodes next week
00:54:28.960 and then the following week. And then the week of January, we will be back doing new shows with
00:54:35.480 all the craziness that is sure to ensue in 2021. But since I won't get to talk to you like live or
00:54:42.960 actively, Merry Christmas and happy new year. I hope you have a wonderful time with your
00:54:49.380 families. We have a lot to thank the Lord for this year. As crazy as it's been, maybe it's been the
00:54:54.660 hardest year of your life. Maybe you have lost loved ones. Maybe you've had loved ones in the
00:54:58.940 hospital. Maybe you have been in isolation for a long time. Maybe you or your spouse or your parent,
00:55:04.380 uh, lost their job. And this has, this has been a tough year for you. Yes, there are millions and
00:55:11.920 millions of people who feel the same way, unfortunately. And a lot of this, unfortunately
00:55:16.640 is self-imposed or is imposed by our government leaders and is not actually scientifically,
00:55:22.060 uh, necessary. And that is probably one of the most tragic parts of this whole thing. But look,
00:55:28.300 we have a God who took on flesh to become Emmanuel, to be our Messiah, to be our perfect sacrifice,
00:55:37.520 to sacrifice himself for our sins. So we, an unholy people, all of us could be reconciled to
00:55:43.840 a holy God, could be forgiven forever. Our slates wiped clean to get a new identity, uh, to be
00:55:50.380 righteous before God because of what Jesus did for us. And we get to spend forever with him because of
00:55:56.400 that. And how much does he love us? That he would send his own son to die a death that he didn't have
00:56:03.480 to die, to live a life that he didn't have to live, to be born, uh, in a station in life that
00:56:08.980 he didn't have to be born into. How humble does Jesus have to be to take on flesh, to condescend
00:56:14.880 himself on our behalf, a rebellious people that didn't think that we needed to be saved, that
00:56:20.780 didn't think that we needed to be pursued, who didn't know that we were lost, that who didn't
00:56:24.940 know that we were sinners in need of a savior, but God and his perfect, redemptive, gracious,
00:56:29.640 loving plan. He did that for us. He did that for us. And that is what Christmas represents.
00:56:34.580 So if for nothing else, we still have a reason to rejoice this year. We still have a reason
00:56:41.740 to rejoice if only for the gospel. That's enough. Those are our riches forever and ever and ever.
00:56:48.200 Yes. And amen. Praise God for that. Merry Christmas. I will see you guys back here on an episode that
00:56:55.680 I've already recorded on Monday.
00:56:59.640 I'll see you guys next time.