Ep 364 ｜ Christians vs. Cancel Culture ｜ Guest： Dr. Christina Crenshaw
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Summary
Dr. Christina Crenshaw is the latest target of a small but loud mob of cancelers who are trying to take her down and get her fired simply because she tweeted skepticism about Biden s executive order expanding Title IX to include boys in girls' restrooms and locker rooms.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. So excited for you to listen to this conversation
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that I'm about to have with Dr. Christina Crenshaw of Baylor University, who is the
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latest target of a small but loud mob of cancelers who are trying to take her down and get her fired
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simply because she tweeted skepticism about Biden's executive order to expand Title IX
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so that boys will have access to girls' restrooms and locker rooms and sports teams. And she simply
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questioned the implications of that. And also, if the feelings and if the opposition of the majority
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of Americans even matters when it comes to policies like this and when it comes to this kind of
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activism, she's got a lot of insight for us, a lot of encouragement. As you can tell,
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it's a longer conversation because so much is packed in. But I know that you are going to
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leave this dialogue feeling edified and feeling challenged and feeling built up. So
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I'm really excited to end the week with this conversation. Without further ado, here is Dr.
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Crenshaw. Dr. Crenshaw, thank you so much for joining me. Could you tell everyone who you are
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and what you do? So thank you so much for having me. So I teach as a professor, technical lecturer
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at Baylor University. I have been in education for 20 years, taught as a high school English teacher
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and then moved into the higher ed side. And I have taught as a professor out in California.
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And then we moved back to Waco, teacher Baylor. I have taught everything from educational leadership
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to social issues and education, most currently teaching a faith and writing class in the English
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department. And then I also teach an anti-human trafficking class through the Honors College.
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Okay, gotcha. And you are here not just because you sound like an awesome professor, which I'm sure
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you could teach us a lot of things, considering everything that you have studied and taught over
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the years. But you're also here because you've gotten kind of unfortunately and unintentionally
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in the middle of some drama and maybe in some hot water with some students at Baylor because
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of something that you said on Twitter about the expansion of Title IX. So can you just give us a
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recap of what happened? Sure. You know, it was just a week ago, so still kind of reeling from it. But
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I would say it was a small group of students with a very loud voice. And that is often the case. But
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because I want to accurately represent the student body, I have felt overwhelmingly supported by
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colleagues and students. Yes. So about two weeks ago, I would call him a like-minded colleague. Dan
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Darling posted his own tweet that said, you know, we need to be concerned as people of faith about the
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Mexico City cancellation with the executive orders by Biden and this Title IX expansion that we should
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be concerned about this. And so then I replied and said, you know, what about the rest of us? Do we
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have a voice on this? You know, essentially saying we are catering, we are appeasing the 1% really at
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the expense of the 99, the rest. And that isn't to, you know, imply that everybody shouldn't be
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protected. But my concerns, what I was really raising with just 140 characters is the idea that are we
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penalizing biological females at the, you know, in order to cater to, again, to kind of acquiesce or
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appease, you know, the small percentage who really want to occupy these spaces. And if you, you know, kind of
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look at the language of the tweet, I use it in terms of children. Because when I was tweeting, I was not
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thinking at all of my identity as a professor. You know, I certainly have, you know, a constitutional
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right as a professor to solve this opinion. But I'm looking at it through a lens of being a female,
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of being a mother, and anti-trafficking work that I do. I think that those are all places,
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this is a place of real concern. If we start allowing biological men, whatever their sexual
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identity, that is sort of like a nuanced and tangential, you know, conversation. If we allow
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biological men to have access to spaces historically reserved for biological women, we are going to
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have, that's, it could be problematic. I think that there's enough data and enough reason to be
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concerned about, about that. Yeah. And so you raise concerns about that. And just, I think everyone
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listening probably knows exactly what you mean by the Mexico City policy and the expansion of Title IX.
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But just to clarify for people who may not know, the Mexico City policy, Biden reversed. And what
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that actually does is it sends our tax dollars to fund abortions worldwide. This has kind of gone
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back and forth between Republican and Democratic presidents. Republican presidents have said,
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yes, the Mexico City policy stands. Our tax dollars are not going to fund abortions worldwide.
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Democratic presidents, including Bill Clinton, Obama, and now Biden, have said, yeah,
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your tax dollars are going to fund abortion worldwide. Christian should obviously care about
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that. Those of us who are pro-life and then the expansion of Title IX is talking about allowing boys
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who identify as girls into girls' exclusive spaces. So locker rooms, bathrooms, sports teams. And your
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tweet raised a concern about that, which I think is a totally legitimate question. What about those of us
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who don't want our daughters to share a bathroom with a boy? Like, do we matter? Do our concerns
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care? Does our offense matter if we're offended by this? If we're worried about the safety of our
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kids or just the fairness for competition for our girls? Why don't our voices have a say? And I think
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the fact that you got so much backlash for raising that concern shows that the opinion of some people,
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even if it's a minority of loud people, is that your voice and your opinion and your concerns,
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they don't matter at all. And not only that, but they're bigoted. Would you say that's an accurate
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assessment of the reaction that you've gotten from some? Absolutely. Again, I would say, you know,
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here's what I think is also really fascinating about this is I didn't realize how organized
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the backlash would be. So, you know, a good week goes by and nobody really, you know, people like the
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tweet or whatever, but there was not an immediate reaction to it. Mostly because within my then
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small, it's tripled in size and since small Twitter community, it is full of like-minded people. So I
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think it's, you know, similar conversations that I have been having. But there is a group on campus
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who is working to become an organized official sanctioned group on campus that would support LGBTQ
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right. So they would be part of the university campus recognized groups. And they've been on
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this mission for a while. You know, I was doctoral student there and I remember, you know, they were
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fighting for to be part of the university even then. And I'm not really privy to all of their
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conversations. I have not really been paying attention. I just know it's been at least, if not
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longer, a 10-year battle. And apparently there has been a very organized effort as of late to make
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this happen. So the Baylor Lariat, which is the student paper, ran an article recently, but, you
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know, before my tweet, you know, really advocating for this group to become an officially recognized
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group. And this was just fodder for, I think, their agenda. Because then from here, they ran an
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entire student, I mean, it's student paper. It's not Baylor official, but, you know, it's on campus.
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A story about, and the title of it was, Dr. Crenshaw, you know, our Baylor lecturer tweets
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homophobic rhetoric. And so, you know, it's even that language that was homophobic. You know, I'm
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looking at our children and what this means for women. And suddenly this has this label on it that
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looks to shut down conversation, that looks to really label somebody, to pigeonhole them. It shuts
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down. It makes the conversation polarizing. And it's no longer a conversation. It's a label. And
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it's hate speech, which is part of, you know, what they had called it. So a petition gets started to
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get me fired. You know, there's a whole change.org petition to get me fired. Finally, the university
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weighs in, and they do it in a very diplomatic way, which is to be expected. And they say, hey,
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this is the right to free speech. This wasn't hate speech. It's within the constitutional right.
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We need civil discourse. That then enrages the students, the small group on campus even more.
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Yeah, how many signatures were there at the time that Baylor responded?
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I have to be honest. Allie, I can't bring myself to look. So friends will, like,
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screen check colleagues are coming to my defense. They're like, or did you see this comment?
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And I always thought it was odd when, you know, people of notability, celebrities or,
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you know, politicians would say, I don't read the news on me. And I'm like, yeah, you do.
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Yeah, you do. But I think your soul can only take so much.
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Totally. So I would estimate that between, you know, social media and my emails, and this is a
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fascinating case study. Social media is where all of the hate speech is coming. Nobody will write that
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in an email. Like it's either overwhelmingly supportive or they'll say, hey, I support you.
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But maybe if you're going to raise this question, just needs to be a little more sensitive. I'm like,
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fair. That's fair. But on social media, between the two, I've probably gotten 300 responses.
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If I had to quantify it, 75% is probably supportive. And then 25%, you know, there were some who
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wished ill will to my children. And I, you know, there was a day last week where every time a car
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would drive by the house, I'm like, wait, I get nervous, which I've never, ever had a reason or,
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you know, to struggle. But the amount of just hateful words, just venom that I think people
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would say. And I understand they believe they're fighting for justice with these words is what I
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think it is. You know, they're young, they're in college. This is their activism. And I don't think
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that they realize that I have been doing this two decades longer. And, you know, that I have actual
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things that you can point to, to say, this is what activism looks like. Even if you want to,
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you know, I approach life through a Christian worldview lens. Everything I do is very gospel
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centered. But I think even as an agnostic or an atheist or in a pluralistic society, you could look
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at that and say, she's doing really great work. And just because you disagree with this one tweet
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doesn't mean you have the liberty to paint her as transphobic. So I think that that has been the
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majority of the rebuttal to the situation. Yeah, I would probably intensified it is I don't know
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if you've noticed, but almost every Christian network picked it up.
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Because I think it's because not that there's, you know, this entire thousands and thousands of
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people mob that's coming after you, it might just be and it typically is a small minority of loud
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voices that are speaking up, but it's happening at a Christian university, you echoed a concern
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that a lot of very rational people have people who believe as you and I do that we are called to
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love our neighbors, and that we are called to treat people equally. We also believe that, you know,
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we live in a pluralistic society where we have to balance rights and religious liberty and all
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that. So rational people, right, you and I from my perspective, anyway. But we have some concerns,
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right? We have some concerns with the expansion of Title IX, we have some concerns for our, for our
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girls, for kids, for what this means for safety and trafficking and all of that. And I think that's
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probably why it's caught on because you said something in a very simple way that you probably,
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I mean, not that you did it thoughtlessly, but you probably didn't think that much about it before
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you said it. I had no idea the firestorm it would cause. It was just a simple reply to a friend,
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like we were having a conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. So I think that's, yeah, that's why it's kind of
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picked up and it's become something, especially when there are students, even if there are just a few
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hundred or a few thousand students trying to get you fired. I mean, we say that we live in a society
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that has free speech and technically that is true because we have a first amendment, but I've talked
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a lot before that, yeah, you can have a first amendment, but if the institutions and the people
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around you will not allow you to safely state your very rational opinions, then do you really have
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free speech? What do you think? Yeah. You know, so it's interesting. I didn't have a reason to really
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dig into my first amendment right to tweet before, you know, and mostly I have, I'm a pretty, you know,
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safe centered person online. But also I just, you know, I think we all assumed we lived under these
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rational, reasonable protections. But it turns out that there are actually, you know, some criteria
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under this and that I was within my first amendment right. But you are protected to free speech if
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your speech is contributing to a concern in the public square. So essentially if it's something
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on policy, if it's something socially, and if it's something within the local community. So if you are
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expressing concern, which I was, that's protected speech. You are also protected if your speech is not,
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if you are not representing any official organization. So I could not say, you know,
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on behalf of Baylor University, on behalf of my organization. But you're not talking about
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what the first amendment allows you to say. You're talking about. Under the first amendment,
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there are these employer rights. Employer. Okay. So you're talking about under the umbrella of
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employer. You're not talking about in general as an individual, because obviously the right to free
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speech expands much farther than just genuine concern and things like that. Correct. Correct. But under,
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if you are an employee and your employer wants to look into investigate, you know, potentially have
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some sort of, you know, retribution for your actions, then the questions that they would look
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at, and there's been some cases who have gone, you know, to the appellate courts on this, they look
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at, okay, is this person contributing to a conversation at large in the public square? Yes. Is this person
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representing the organization for which they work? No. I mean, perhaps, you know, like indirectly,
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but as I am not claiming to stand for the right. So this was in completely within my constitutional
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right to free speech on all levels. Right. So I think that that's where, you know, Baylor had to
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land on that. But it does raise concerns. You know, I have gotten some requests to be parts of groups
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behind paywalls. And these are groups that I would never think did not feel comfortable speaking in
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public because they have very large public platforms. But I think this was really eye opening
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experience to realize that people don't necessarily feel comfortable speaking freely,
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even if they can root their stance in data. I think a Cato study came out recently saying that
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two thirds of Americans don't feel like they could share their opinion in public without some sort of
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backlash or persecution. And now I don't know if it looked, I imagine the demographics were broad
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across the spectrum. I would like to think on the study, I haven't looked into it, but I do remember
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reading that and thinking so that's that's, you know, people from both ends of the spectrum are
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feeling if I lend my voice to any conversation in the public square, I could potentially be risking my
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livelihood, if not worse. And when I would hear studies like that prior, I would think, well, that's a
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little bit of an of a rash reaction that surely we still live in an America where we can say things
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like, I disagree with Biden's 30 executive orders that he assigned within the last 10 days without
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having to have a university that has historical Baptist tradition roots, disagree and slander. And so I think
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that's what's been alarming for people to say, wait, if this Christian professor at a Christian university
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cannot even express Christian Orthodox traditional views without any sort of persecution or backlash,
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what does that mean for the rest of us? And I think that that was really what was raised in all of these
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articles that have been written. Right. And Baylor, though, they have, they've done a pretty good job of
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making you feel supported. Is that true? I would say that that is true, largely. I will go on record saying I
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have not personally heard from administration. I think that there may be just hoping it dissipates.
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But the provost, who is the second in command right under the president, did write a really great
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response about free speech. Civil discourse brought up this example and said, these are not, this does
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not constitute hate speech. It is not grounds for reporting somebody to Title IX to question Title IX.
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And we're not going to fire her over this. And so it was, it was a stance. Yeah.
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Again, that just enraged the small group further, because then they took their, you know, backlash
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out on me. So, yes. And I, in my experience, it does typically dissipate. You're, you'll get probably
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a trickle every now and then of people who will message you and, and things like that. But it is
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probably more encouraging than you realize for people to see someone like you raise a concern and,
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you know, state something that so many people feel. And, you know, we talked about a couple weeks
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ago, there was this baby sleep trainer. Her name is Kara Dumoplin. And she, it was found out that she
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voted to, or she donated to the Trump campaign. And, you know, they tried to cancel her, put all of
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her paid for content for free online and all this terrible stuff. And, you know, how she reacted to it
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was very kind, very gracious, and she didn't apologize. And that's the thing that I think
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people need to see, is that if you say something that you really meant, and then the mob, even if
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it's a small mob, they come after you, they try to take you down. Unless you really regret what you
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said, don't apologize. And I appreciate that you have it. Yes, maybe you've taken some, what you feel
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like it's constructive criticism or whatever, but not apologizing, not then adding caveats,
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not then backing down. That actually gives people a lot of courage, don't you think?
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Yeah, you know, I have found that to be true. Well, one of the things I said to someone who
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reached out there, you know, a really big Christian organization, and they had written about me. And he
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said, you know, thank you for your bravery. And I said, you know, just very honestly, I was like,
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well, bravery is hard. I mean, bravery, it's really difficult. It's not easy to be on this
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side. I can see why people would cater or what people would cave and retract a statement. I could
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understand that now. I haven't. And I stand by what I said, you know, I will say it again,
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biological males do not need to be in biological women's spaces, that that really is not the best
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for the majority. Yeah, you know, I'm putting it in very simple terms, because it's hard to believe
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that is a polarizing statement in this day and age. I know, right. The you know, I would say my
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husband asked me the other day, I was like, if you could do it again, would you? And I'm like,
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gosh, it's always such a hard answer. I know a hard thing to answer. But I would say yes,
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I would maybe take off the cool at the end. I think that made it a little snarkier than I had
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intended, you know, in the moment, again, just between, you know, colleagues or small little
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Twitter circle. But I think, you know, otherwise, no, I feel comfortable with what I said,
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I stand by what I said, I don't apologize for what I said. And,
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and I'm sorry, if it hurts a few people's feelings, I'm not looking to be cruel, I'm not
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looking to hate anybody, I am simply looking to protect the interest of everybody. But in this
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case, the majority, you know, like we have not stopped to consider how sometimes policies we make
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actually hurt more people than they help. And I'm just asking, can we ask the question about whether
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this is really a good idea, whether it is with funding overseas for abortion, and or whether it
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is allowing biological men to compete in sports or to participate in girls clubs that have been
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exclusively for girls, you know, we have to remember that Title IX 1972 was really created to protect
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women, to create space for them to compete in education, for them to compete in sports for them
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to have equal opportunity and equal access. And so this is the first time, you know, really Obama
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administration that we see he was the first one to include, you know, rights of people who were not
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biologically of their gender that we've always defined it by. But I think when we look at what
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defines sex, like that's also a conversation I've had people who are not necessarily faith based,
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but our scientists, who are, you know, biologists who who work with anatomy, and they're like, this,
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this is really ridiculous for the sciences, the hard sciences are having a hard time with this as well.
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Definitely. And we've had some of those people on this podcast, there are a lot of people. It's
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interesting how this whole not just cancel culture, but I would say how far leftism has moved to the
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left, how it has created strange bedfellows, it has united people in common cause, you know, I have
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conversations on this show with atheists about the dangers of critical race theory, agnostics about
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the dangers of, you know, erasing, erasing women, radical feminists, they would call themselves who
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disagree with the expansion of Title IX and Biden's executive order and the Bostock case, that
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apparently Biden's executive order was based upon. And so there's a lot of people, I would say the vast
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majority of people, when they really think about the issue, not just, well, do you believe transgender
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people have rights? Well, yeah, of course, I believe everyone has rights. But when you dig past it, well,
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do you think that men should be able to enter girl spaces, in prisons, in women's shelters, in locker
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rooms, in bathrooms, in girl sports? Most people say, well, no, that's, that's not fair. But I think when
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we've allowed kind of postmodernism in this post-truth world in which we live to infiltrate
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every area of our lives, then what is science? What is biology? What is gender? What is sex?
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But the ironic thing in all of that is that in the midst of all of that relativism, our people,
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the people who carry that relativism are so dogmatic about being right.
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And you have just been on the, on the bad end of that. Would you agree?
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Right. And I think what I'm finding too, is you really cannot enter any kind of a civil discourse
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or conversation with people who are dogmatic and hostile and refuse to have a conversation about it.
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You know, if they're, if they're not willing to be reasonable about it, if they're not willing
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to bring in any kind of facts or data, if it is completely what we call, you know, within writing
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pathos, you know, logos, pathos, ethos, if it's basically just a feelings-based emotional argument,
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then you can only take that conversation so far.
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Because really this is a conversation that requires that we look at the logos, the facts involved in
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this, the data, you know, do we really think this is in the best interest of everybody?
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And that isn't to say that we don't look to protect everybody and to extend rights, but
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perhaps that looks like single stall bathrooms, or can I at least have a nuanced conversation
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about what this will mean when biological men want to compete in track and sports?
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Because we already have some examples, some case studies of when biological men have competed
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in women's sports as they identify as transgender, then they obliterate the field.
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You know, they, they end up winning all of these competitions and, and you have these
00:24:32.040
women athletes who are saying, wait a second, this is not fair.
00:24:38.460
You know, first and second wave feminists worked to establish equal space.
00:24:42.680
And then we have these third and fourth waves coming in saying, well, anybody who wants to
00:24:46.520
identify as a woman, as a woman is welcome to join the table in the conversation.
00:24:50.220
So I think there are a lot of us left still, you know, saying, can I raise my hand and ask
00:24:55.320
a few questions about this because it feels, it all feels a very anti-woman to be quite
00:25:10.240
I was just posting about, um, on, on Instagram, I listened to, you know, I'm pregnant.
00:25:15.780
So I listened to some pregnancy podcasts, some birthing podcasts and things like that.
00:25:20.920
And the insistence upon saying people, birthing people instead of women or pregnant women or
00:25:26.940
moms, it really grinds, it really grinds my gears.
00:25:33.320
Or when I hear the term chest feeding or something like that, I'm like this amazing miracle that
00:25:40.820
What a privilege it is that God gave women this amazing ability to be able to, to birth
00:25:50.240
You're saying that that has nothing to, that's not unique.
00:25:53.480
Like that's, that's not a, a special characteristic that God gave me that I can't relish in the
00:25:59.480
beauty and the uniqueness of being a woman through birth that I have to say, no, this just applies
00:26:07.160
And kind of going back to your original tweet that got some people mad.
00:26:13.940
Like, can I be offended that you're offended or does it not work that way?
00:26:20.000
So the, the vast majority of, of people who give birth, I mean, they're all women, but
00:26:26.400
the vast majority of us identify as women and you calling that into question, it offends
00:26:35.600
It feels like I'm being, it feels like women are being erased.
00:26:39.300
And so we've gotten so far, like you said, in women's rights.
00:26:43.620
And I definitely, I don't consider myself a feminist.
00:26:46.340
I don't agree with a lot of the so-called logic of feminism.
00:26:49.600
I think it helped get us here, but we have gotten so far in so many ways for women's rights
00:26:54.620
only for me to not be able to say like that women have unique capabilities.
00:27:04.240
Well, and it all seems very, it's all very circular.
00:27:07.000
And I think to your question earlier, I mean, if your listeners want to do a deep dive into
00:27:12.400
critical theory, because that is where critical race theory stems.
00:27:16.920
Well, and I did a podcast through, actually our church, we did one, it has a podcast and
00:27:21.840
we did one on critical theory and the dangers of it.
00:27:24.220
And really this idea of deconstructing, you know, like specifically with theology, deconstructing
00:27:30.320
2000 years of church history in order to fit into your postmodern secular humanist narrative.
00:27:40.400
Like there's a lot of hubris involved in that, right?
00:27:43.180
The amount of, the amount of like hermeneutical gymnastics you have to go through in order
00:27:48.560
to make something fit your postmodern narrative is, it's exhausting and it's embarrassing.
00:27:54.260
And I don't think that they see the circular thinking within it, you know, like, well, I'm
00:27:58.200
offended, but I'm offended, but you don't get to be offended.
00:28:03.600
So for example, within the article that the slanderous article that the Baylor student paper
00:28:08.300
wrote, this, a student of mine, a former student of mine said, essentially like, I really liked
00:28:13.560
She was on our safe list for the LGBTQ community.
00:28:18.740
So I was on her safe list on Monday, but then they had to like take me off on Tuesday
00:28:25.920
You know, so whatever it was about the way that I taught or, you know, like my life is
00:28:31.820
You can see I'm, you know, overtly faith-based.
00:28:34.360
You know, I have associated with a lot of faith-based things.
00:28:36.740
If that made you feel safe on Monday, but then I tweet something on Tuesday and suddenly
00:28:43.120
it negates the whole of everything else that I stand for, that is on you, not on me.
00:28:49.580
You know, so I think that that has been really interesting too, is, is to see all the logical
00:28:53.860
fallacies within this progressive thinking that says you have to wholesale accept our
00:29:00.060
narrative or you were, you were either with us or against us, you know, and, and, um, it's
00:29:05.020
disheartening, but I think before it felt more like theory and to actually live through it
00:29:09.600
and you're like, no, really, I do think that we need to be concerned about free speech.
00:29:14.180
Even if you run in, you know, Christian circles, I think that you need to be concerned about,
00:29:21.360
you know, your right to express orthodox traditional views because there are going to be people who
00:29:26.680
I think that we also need to be concerned about how much of a voice we give to youth.
00:29:33.500
You know, I, I have said often before on social media, yes, all voices matter, but not all
00:29:43.040
It kind of goes back to the ethos, pathos, logos, you have to have, I mean, obviously appeal
00:29:48.860
to authority is a, it can be a logical fallacy, but knowing where something is coming from and
00:29:59.120
I would go to Dr. Fauci to get my epidemiology, but I go to a lot of people listening to this
00:30:07.060
Compared to, for my theology, I would go to Dr. Timothy Keller, right?
00:30:11.200
Like I don't, you know, you go to the expert in the field.
00:30:14.680
I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with everything Fauci says, but I'm saying you don't
00:30:20.400
There's going to be people who also don't agree with Timothy Keller on everything.
00:30:24.660
So just, you know, people have, you can disagree on all that.
00:30:30.660
But yes, they are experts and that you wouldn't go to Dr. Fauci for theology.
00:30:39.020
Like you, you go to the people who have done the hard work in this field.
00:30:44.780
So wherever you land, if you, you know, gospel coalition or whatever, you know, is where you
00:30:49.340
go for your source, but the point is go to people who do this for a living.
00:30:53.740
Don't just take advice from groups on the internet, you know, like you, you have to go
00:30:58.500
to people who have the clout and credibility is really, is where I'm coming from in that.
00:31:02.620
And so I think that that has been interesting because we live now in this, in this world,
00:31:06.940
the last 10, no more than 15 years where everybody has a voice and everybody has a seat
00:31:11.480
at the table and we want to, you know, hear every voice and every voice counts.
00:31:15.180
And I think that we're starting to realize there's a danger in that, that that is
00:31:19.120
not the, the, the most reasonable and the, and then the best interest of everybody to
00:31:24.660
allow so many voices to be present at the table.
00:31:28.520
And you have to look at actually how many voices are there.
00:31:31.700
There was someone who I've had on this podcast, Abigail Schreier, who she wrote the book Irreversible
00:31:37.520
And she talks about, yeah, well, she talks about this subject, about how there's actually
00:31:41.480
a social contagion involved, but these teenage girls suddenly saying that they identify as
00:31:46.260
the other gender, some of them go through surgery or procedures and they regret it.
00:31:51.540
She's really been a champion, um, uh, of that issue of advocating for these young girls who
00:31:58.280
are kind of being tossed aside by the medical community and just given hormones and forgotten
00:32:03.320
about, but someone, one person, random person on Twitter complained about target selling her
00:32:10.040
One person random again, like, I don't know how many followers they had, but it wasn't
00:32:15.360
some journalist or activist or anything target immediately responded, took her book out of
00:32:22.860
Now, thankfully she noticed this and the rest of us it's, I mean, this is what it always
00:32:29.020
The rest of conservative Twitter got loud, started writing stories about it, interviews on it and
00:32:35.900
they put it back on distribution, but it seems like just one tiny voice of opposition when
00:32:42.160
it comes from the left is enough to make major corporations and sometimes universities, universities
00:32:51.980
I just think it would make such a statement if more people did what you, what you said and
00:33:06.500
It's when the universities respond or when the corporations respond and when they kowtow
00:33:10.960
to these demands that it becomes this whole big thing.
00:33:16.140
Yeah, and you know, and I think there are very, there's only a few examples that I can
00:33:19.820
point to where I have seen corporations stand up to an angry mob.
00:33:25.480
I remember this summer hearing a story about there was a group, some probably changed petition
00:33:29.560
online to get Trader Joe's to cancel, you know, some of their, their items.
00:33:34.580
And Trader Joe's was like, you know, we don't listen just to the views of a few.
00:33:38.740
Like we make corporate decisions within corporate and we feel fine with these names.
00:33:43.560
We are not going to change them because you woke up today and chose to be offended by this.
00:33:50.020
And you know, and that's really interesting too, because when a student reached out and
00:33:53.860
I got to tell you, Allie, my first thought was actually not fear because I went to that
00:33:58.760
I was like, okay, probably Baylor's going to get this and think this is ridiculous.
00:34:02.700
You know, she is, you know, a graduate of our school.
00:34:08.360
She really, at the end of the day, makes us look good.
00:34:10.940
Like this is what we want to be able to say our professors are doing great research, great
00:34:15.640
work, and from a place of Christian mission, you know, check, check, check.
00:34:19.680
But I thought to myself, okay, so Baylor gets this, you know, what if they do decide
00:34:24.500
Because that's what they were trying to trigger.
00:34:25.960
They were trying to initiate these students, some sort of an investigation into this Twitter
00:34:37.460
I can't ever go to, you know, A&M or UT or any other school.
00:34:46.020
I had to go there in my mind, which is really sad and disheartening.
00:34:49.360
But I say that to give people courage, because I think these are places we have to think
00:34:54.440
through, particularly as Christians, particularly as believers.
00:34:58.640
We have to say, I'm going to count it all loss.
00:35:02.060
What does that look like to count it as a loss?
00:35:04.920
It is disheartening that I had to count faith as a loss within a faith-based circle.
00:35:10.640
I mean, it really brings tears to my eyes to even think about that, that I, you know,
00:35:13.900
didn't feel completely protected and within tradition and orthodox and biblical perspective
00:35:21.900
That loving my neighbor looks like loving my transgender neighbor, but it also looks like
00:35:27.260
loving all of the women and all of the daughters and all of the people that I would be concerned
00:35:32.480
with, you know, when this Title IX policy is implemented or implemented back from the Biden
00:35:39.320
Because Trump had rolled it back, and then Biden just reinstated it, is essentially what
00:35:44.600
So I think that on this side, I would say coming out of this, that we have to count the cost.
00:35:51.620
You have to be able to say, worst case scenario, what would my plan B be?
00:35:57.100
Because I don't want to allow the world to negate what I know to be true, true about science,
00:36:05.400
true about scripture, true about morality, all the things that we have historically said,
00:36:10.960
this is a truism, and we have upheld it through the test of time.
00:36:15.040
We can't just allow a postmodern narrative to obliterate that.
00:36:19.740
There has to be space for a conversation and not just a cancellation.
00:36:35.400
I like what you said about the importance of loving everyone, loving your transgender neighbor,
00:36:44.940
But we cannot, not but to you, but to this idea of love that is projected on us or is
00:36:57.200
We don't get our definition of love from the world.
00:37:00.700
So loving your transgender neighbor, your gay neighbor, whatever it looks like, doesn't
00:37:06.720
mean to the Christian saying, yes, we agree with you on everything.
00:37:17.020
We see a perfect depiction of love and truth in Jesus that he never compromised in what is
00:37:24.160
true, that he always relied on the truth of God's word and his mission from the father,
00:37:29.140
even while loving so radically and intentionally throughout his life.
00:37:33.080
And that's what, that's what Christians are called to do too.
00:37:36.800
I mean, Martin Luther said, truth at all costs, peace if possible.
00:37:42.720
James tells us that, you know, enmity with the world is peace with God and vice versa.
00:37:51.620
And so I think that Christians also need to not lay down and be okay with it, but get used
00:37:57.900
to the cancellation that's coming because Jesus says that we're going to be canceled
00:38:02.940
for saying things that to us are so obvious that, hey, boys and girls are different.
00:38:07.000
And in some places they don't need to be sharing spaces.
00:38:10.400
And hey, like, this is what we believe about life inside the womb.
00:38:15.160
People want to make you feel like that's radical.
00:38:17.260
People want to make you feel like that's fireable, like that's cancelable.
00:38:20.540
Well, in Matthew 10, Jesus says, well, don't fear the people that can hurt your body.
00:38:26.080
Fear the God that can destroy both your body and your soul in hell.
00:38:32.980
Is that there's nothing you can do to me that is worse or bigger than what God can do.
00:38:39.960
And that's, and I think that that would be, you know, yeah, sort of my overall synopsis
00:38:43.960
that, you know, my key takeaway lesson learned from this for everybody else is that you really
00:38:50.220
do have to go into a situation where you are speaking up for truth.
00:38:55.780
Again, you know, biblical truth, scientific truth, just things that we know to be little
00:38:59.640
T truths and big T truths and to say, okay, but I have to count the cost of standing up
00:39:05.900
for this because if I don't, then what is the legacy I am leaving for the generation
00:39:10.660
I am constantly thinking that if I acquiesce to a postmodern, secular, really relative
00:39:17.180
narrative here, what damage am I doing to the gospel?
00:39:20.980
What damage am I doing to my children who are coming up behind me to my, to my Christian
00:39:25.640
witness and to the precedence I am standing for them?
00:39:28.700
And so I think that that is, it's definitely true.
00:39:31.020
It's a little disheartening because I think we all, we're all working as believers towards
00:39:36.740
a place where we can engage our faith in the public square.
00:39:40.940
And I have been a fierce advocate, whether I am doing that through anti-trafficking work
00:39:44.660
because I see redemption and restoration in that, whether I am joining, you know, Christian
00:39:48.440
women's leadership boards, I am doing that because I believe that the gospel is the answer
00:39:55.200
And it sometimes looks like overtly Christian work and sometimes it looks like common good
00:39:59.960
But I am nervous for the first time after this experience saying, wait, it is getting
00:40:06.900
When people have been warning me about this, I see it, I've experienced it.
00:40:14.700
You know, this is coming from in a school that associates and their rhetoric says that,
00:40:19.840
you know, they're unapologetically Christian, right?
00:40:22.260
And so to the one side who is saying, well, being Christian looks like accepting everyone.
00:40:28.960
Being Christian does not necessarily mean look like acquiescing to everyone when you are
00:40:37.440
And I think that we are entering into this new era where we are going to have to navigate
00:40:43.220
those nuanced conversations as believers with such care and caution.
00:40:48.440
You know, I mean, it doesn't mean that we shirk back, that we aren't bold about it.
00:40:51.200
But I think that this is where culture may not be as much on our side as it has been historically.
00:41:01.300
And I, you know, that's scary for a lot of people.
00:41:04.440
But we, you know, we did an episode on cancel culture the other day and said so much of what
00:41:08.680
you're saying now is one of the pieces of advice that I give to myself, that I give to everyone
00:41:14.020
that's looking at this wave of hostility that they know and feel is coming, whether or not
00:41:25.020
It's time for us to count the cost ahead of time.
00:41:27.320
Don't wait until you've been canceled to count the cost.
00:41:35.360
And I'm not trying to say that means we have to agree on all things politically, but there
00:41:39.420
are some basic things that to the Christian are not political.
00:41:52.980
And then another thing that I think that I encourage people to do is that when they see
00:41:56.580
someone like you or someone that they know, we're just standing up for what is true, getting
00:42:02.220
the brunt of this mob to stand up with them, to be willing to share the arrows, be willing
00:42:09.300
I think that's part of loving people as you, you know, treating people as you want to be
00:42:14.400
I would want someone to stand up in my defense and say, hey, this person's character is not
00:42:21.100
This person is not a hateful person just because you disagree with them.
00:42:26.580
I think if we had more people willing to publicly say, I know I'm going to get canceled.
00:42:32.460
And when I see someone being unfairly maligned for something that I know is true and I agree
00:42:38.920
Even I could stay hidden for a really long time, but I'm going to raise my hand and say,
00:42:49.460
Maybe we won't change politics, but we'll at least be united under a banner of truth while
00:42:58.200
And I think too, you know, it's interesting because it actually, you know, it brings tears
00:43:02.660
I got teary eyed when a student reached out and said, I just want you to know we have a
00:43:06.320
group chat with 188 students in it and we're praying for you.
00:43:14.680
It was a male student that I actually have never even taught.
00:43:17.500
And I think this has been a red letter moment for this micro example I would love to believe
00:43:26.140
That when we face opposition, that like-minded people with similar values will rally around
00:43:35.020
You don't get to cancel somebody because they have a dissenting opinion.
00:43:38.920
And that is true of the right and the left, but I think that most of us would agree with
00:43:43.440
the statement that we see it more strongly on the left.
00:43:46.040
There was a study that came out of Harvard recently.
00:43:49.420
Not long ago, but within the last two years that looked at cancel culture and it found
00:43:54.340
that both sides do it, but it indicated that the left does it more and that the consequences
00:44:02.280
And I, you know, and so I read that and I remember thinking, well, I can, I can see that.
00:44:05.700
But I think here, like, I really see that it's a very rare that I see conservatives trying
00:44:17.860
And yeah, typically I see it with something like, hey, I'm going to boycott Netflix because
00:44:25.100
The distinction between saying, hey, I'm going to take my business elsewhere, which everyone
00:44:28.840
is totally, you know, free to do on the left or the right.
00:44:32.820
Um, that's very different than saying, hey, this small business owner, this one person
00:44:37.740
who said something I don't like, or this florist who won't service a gay wedding because of
00:44:43.260
her belief in, you know, biblical traditional marriage, I'm going to ruin her life and I'm
00:44:48.920
Those two things are, they have very different repercussions.
00:44:57.740
And so I do think, so again, I, you know, I see this happen on the right or the left.
00:45:02.460
I see it happen more on the left and I, and I do see that the consequences are more dire
00:45:06.160
and there is actually a study that's, that supports that.
00:45:09.140
So I, you know, we, we can point to some data there, but I think, yeah, that is the thing
00:45:14.420
that, um, I think as believers, we're going to say, you know, we're, this is a red letter
00:45:19.300
Micro example on what we need to do at the macro level.
00:45:21.560
When we experience cancel culture, when, you know, somebody is trying to negate our right
00:45:27.040
to free speech, to ask valid questions in the public square, to say that we disagree,
00:45:32.480
then we have to be able to rally like-minded believers to say, she's not alone.
00:45:40.340
Um, and I, I think that in a way that we have not historically had to, because we shared
00:45:45.480
the majority belief, I don't know in this culture.
00:45:49.100
I, I don't know that we have the loudest voice and that is the thing.
00:45:52.880
I think that we have the shared majority values, um, across the, you know, the, the spectrum
00:45:57.860
of Christendom and people who, you know, believe in Christianity, but I don't know that we have
00:46:04.280
And so it is going to take a rallying of people who say, Hey, that's not okay.
00:46:09.880
You cannot just bully somebody into submission.
00:46:13.200
And I think the refusal to be bullied into submission also is, I mean, both of those
00:46:20.660
Other people encouraging you and saying, Hey, don't be bullied.
00:46:25.800
And also that person, Hey, I'm not, I'm not going to be bullied.
00:46:29.940
And I actually think there's a lot of encouragement.
00:46:32.320
I remember a pastor, um, a few years ago saying something that's just always stuck with me and
00:46:38.200
has just become more and more significant as the years go on.
00:46:42.420
And as I hear about different situations like this is that the church actually thrives on
00:46:47.540
So we are, the church is in America being pushed out of the mainstream into the margins.
00:46:52.020
And the way that that's happening right now is it's being really just evangelicalism in
00:46:56.960
general as being conflated with things that it is not white nationalism, white supremacy,
00:47:01.560
hatred, bigotry, um, being told that it's dangerous, that it's inciting violence and domestic
00:47:06.600
terrorism, that it's a threat to national security.
00:47:09.300
And so of course, any kind of speech that is even similar to any kind of traditional
00:47:13.940
conservative Christianity, whether or not that person's a Republican, whatever, is going
00:47:19.760
And that's scary for a lot of people because we have had this exceptional respite from religious
00:47:25.860
persecution as Christians in the West and in particular as America, as Americans.
00:47:30.000
Christians, but the, it's the, it's the rule, not the exception that the church has been
00:47:38.160
And Jesus promises us that the gates of hell are not going to prevail against the church.
00:47:46.020
So yes, there's going to be pruning to the vine.
00:47:48.720
Yes, there's going to be people that we thought were believers that at the slightest bit of pressure
00:47:54.260
Yes, there's going to be compromisers who then come, come back and repent.
00:47:58.020
And we might be pushed to the margins to where we don't have the cultural megaphones anymore,
00:48:02.740
to where we are called, everyone's called a bigot and a racist for believing that the
00:48:16.600
And in all of these instances that you might feel, maybe you feel like this is so small
00:48:21.500
that you just said a tweet that wasn't even necessarily theological.
00:48:24.980
And, you know, it's not going to make, it might not go to Fox News.
00:48:28.080
It might not go to, certainly not going to go to CNN.
00:48:39.100
And people listening to this conversation, it actually does matter.
00:48:42.620
It is just another fortification of people's spirit to say, you know what?
00:48:47.840
I am going to count the cost and it is worth saying this thing that people think is controversial.
00:48:53.480
Do you have any just last words of wisdom or encouragement for people who are facing,
00:48:58.780
you know, the same kind of anxiety that a lot of people are feeling right now with our views?
00:49:03.120
I would say take heart in knowing that even if you feel that the church is being pushed
00:49:08.040
to the margins and not really welcomed, you know, in public spaces, that there are still,
00:49:14.260
you know, people who are willing to stand for truth and you're not alone.
00:49:18.340
I would say to take comfort knowing that the global church is growing.
00:49:22.300
You know, the global church, I think more than ever, the last few years have made me look
00:49:28.620
Sometimes I can become a little, you know, ethnocentric, just what's going on in the American
00:49:34.120
And I forget, I have brothers and sisters in Christ all over the world.
00:49:38.900
And we're facing far greater persecution than Americans ever have.
00:49:42.920
I might, you know, I could have lost my job as a professor or been canceled at universities.
00:49:50.160
But there are people being persecuted in prisons for their faith.
00:49:54.620
The underground church in China, I mean, there are places, you know, where people do not
00:49:58.040
feel like in the Middle East that they can profess to be a Christian.
00:50:00.220
And so I think you're not alone in your persecution, but you're not alone in your hope either.
00:50:06.280
You know, that, yeah, for 2,000 years, the church has been growing and it has withstood
00:50:14.280
You know, I know that the Lord is never ending, you know, that His promises are true
00:50:23.000
I can trust that, you know, those promises are going to come to fruition.
00:50:26.420
Even if I don't see it in the moment, those are going to come to fruition.
00:50:30.200
And I would say the last thing, a litmus test for me, you know, because sometimes people
00:50:41.180
I would say, I ask myself, would I trust this person to raise my children?
00:50:46.740
Would I trust this narrative to raise my children?
00:50:49.340
As I'm listening to, you know, particularly I am trying to find voices for racial reconciliation
00:50:53.840
within the church, because I want to find people who love Jesus and who are pointing
00:50:59.520
me to truth and to say, you know, I trust the fruit in your life, you know, the love,
00:51:04.020
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
00:51:06.880
I see that in you and I would trust you to raise my kids.
00:51:10.340
And then I see these other hostile, cancel cultural narratives and I think, I wouldn't trust
00:51:17.520
So if you wouldn't let your kids touch it, you probably shouldn't touch it either.
00:51:22.540
And then another thing I say is, okay, creation, fall, redemption, restoration.
00:51:27.060
Do I see this idea that the biblical narrative creation, we're created in God's image, we've
00:51:33.700
We all have a fallen sinful nature, whatever that vice is, you know, it needs to be redeemed
00:51:38.900
And do I see redemption and restoration in this story, in this narrative, in this person?
00:51:45.000
And if you cannot point to that, you probably ought to run from it.
00:51:51.900
And make sure that we are defining sin and wrong and right and good and bad and true and
00:52:02.120
redemption and restoration and reconciliation in biblical terms, not in worldly terms.
00:52:08.880
And thankfully, the Bible does give us the answer for so much.
00:52:12.560
And if anyone is wondering, okay, wait, how is there a connection between talking about
00:52:17.700
gender and, you know, your faith and persecution and all of that?
00:52:21.080
That's something we've talked a lot about on this podcast before.
00:52:23.840
Biblical Telos of Gender is an episode that we did a few weeks ago that makes that connection
00:52:29.680
in case, you know, anyone's new to the podcast and hasn't heard it.
00:52:32.580
But I just want to thank you so much for all the encouragement that you've given us, for
00:52:44.120
So I've finally made my social media accounts public again.
00:52:47.820
I had to go private in order to just protect myself from the onslaught.
00:52:55.640
However, I, you know, not all that active, maybe I will be now.
00:53:00.600
But yeah, so you can finally on social media, have a web page, would love to connect with
00:53:05.460
anybody who is like minded, and, you know, wants to establish a friendship in that.
00:53:12.040
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.