Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 383 ｜ My Disagreements with IF：Gathering, John MacArthur & Beth Moore

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:10.820 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:11.960 I'm super excited about today's episode because we're going to talk about three subjects that

00:00:18.280 you guys have been asking me to cover this week.

00:00:22.680 They're hot topics within the evangelical church.

00:00:25.800 I am going to touch on the IF gathering.

00:00:29.300 That is a large Christian women's conference, which is being streamed nationally, maybe

00:00:34.440 even internationally.

00:00:35.460 And I have gotten so many messages from you guys asking me for my thoughts on it.

00:00:40.660 So this is not going to be, it's not going to be any kind of like call out or accusations

00:00:45.700 or anything like that.

00:00:47.080 I'm going to give you my thoughts on a particular subject that was covered that you guys expressed

00:00:53.100 concerns about.

00:00:54.660 We're going to do that at the end.

00:00:56.200 First, I'm going to talk about John MacArthur and his statement that I wouldn't fight for

00:01:00.540 religious freedom because I won't fight for idolatry.

00:01:03.940 I'll tell you what I think about that as someone who cares about religious liberty and does say

00:01:09.840 that we should fight for religious liberty.

00:01:11.340 And also someone who aligns pretty solidly theologically with John MacArthur, someone who admires him

00:01:18.760 a whole lot.

00:01:20.100 I'll tell you my thoughts on that.

00:01:22.120 I'll also give you some thoughts on Beth Moore leaving the SBC.

00:01:27.420 That's the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:01:31.040 So before we get started, I do want to say if you love this podcast and it has been helpful

00:01:37.520 to you at all, of course, let me know.

00:01:41.100 Message me if that's something that you want to do.

00:01:42.980 That means so much to me.

00:01:44.160 But please feel free also to leave a five-star review on Apple if that's where you listen.

00:01:50.600 Subscribe on YouTube.

00:01:52.480 If you watch the podcast, that really is super helpful to me and super helpful to the show.

00:01:58.360 Thank you to those of you who already have done that.

00:02:00.960 But if you haven't, feel free to leave that five-star review if you truly love the show.

00:02:05.600 That would mean a lot to me.

00:02:07.260 Okay, let's start with this John MacArthur story.

00:02:10.660 So according to the Christian Post, John MacArthur said, I would not fight for religious freedom

00:02:15.860 because I won't fight for idolatry.

00:02:19.320 John MacArthur says that he doesn't support religious liberty as a core component of American

00:02:23.960 cultural values because it allows for idolatry.

00:02:28.700 The Christian Post goes on to report it this way.

00:02:31.420 The pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, was giving his State of the

00:02:36.280 Church address last Wednesday.

00:02:38.480 It was replacing this year's Shepherd Conference, which has been postponed.

00:02:43.840 And he, quote, urged evangelicals to stop forming alliances with non-Christian groups to promote

00:02:48.860 religious freedom because Christians don't need religious freedom, he argues.

00:02:54.660 The gospel offends the sinner and seeks to break the sinner's comfort and contentment by 0.99

00:02:58.260 bringing him into stark realization of the eternal judgment of God.

00:03:01.800 John MacArthur said, evangelicals have become like Peter. 0.92

00:03:04.860 They are looking for alliances with Satan that they think somehow can aid the kingdom.

00:03:11.100 I told our congregation a few weeks ago that I could never really concern myself with a

00:03:15.140 religious freedom.

00:03:16.160 I wouldn't fight for a religious freedom because I won't fight for idolatry. 0.59

00:03:19.920 Why would I fight for the devil to have as many false religions as possible and all of 1.00

00:03:24.280 them be available to everyone?

00:03:26.460 He goes on to say, well, people would say that's a terrible thing to say.

00:03:32.100 What about Christianity?

00:03:33.180 Christianity, and he says, Christianity advances whether there is religious freedom or not. 0.69

00:03:38.300 Every false religion is going to be free because it's linked to the kingdom of darkness that 0.99

00:03:42.380 operates in the world.

00:03:43.520 And Christians, whatever the label of religious freedom might be in its broadest sense, Christians

00:03:48.400 are always the target, even with religious freedom, of the hostility of sinners.

00:03:54.380 And so he goes on to support his argument with scripture.

00:03:58.920 He uses Ephesians 5, 5 through 8.

00:04:01.920 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure or who is

00:04:06.060 covetous, that is, an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

00:04:11.700 Let no one deceive you with empty words.

00:04:13.520 For because of these things, the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

00:04:18.240 Therefore, do not become partners with them.

00:04:20.820 For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

00:04:26.820 Walk as children of light, for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right

00:04:33.200 and true.

00:04:34.580 So this, of course, is going to be a compelling argument by Dr. John MacArthur.

00:04:40.060 As I said at the top of this, I love John MacArthur.

00:04:43.280 He has helped me so much.

00:04:44.580 I've had him on this podcast.

00:04:45.540 Ironically, it was the podcast episode about religious liberty.

00:04:50.940 And if I were you, I would go back and listen to that conversation that we had.

00:04:55.040 It's also on my Instagram IGTV page.

00:05:02.040 And, you know, I have disagreed with him on various things.

00:05:07.340 He believes certain things about the foundation of America actually being sinful because it

00:05:13.080 was a violation, he believes, of Romans 13.

00:05:18.280 And I disagree with his eschatological views as well.

00:05:22.800 He is pre-tribulation, for example.

00:05:26.020 I am post-tribulation.

00:05:27.520 But for the most part, I mean, I really agree with John MacArthur.

00:05:31.220 And I know that me even saying that sounds silly because this is a man who has had a faithful

00:05:36.320 and wonderful and vibrant and helpful and popular ministry for, I don't know, double the time

00:05:43.520 that I've been alive.

00:05:44.540 So who am I to disagree with someone like John MacArthur?

00:05:47.920 And I'm certainly not claiming to have any kind of superior theological or historical or

00:05:56.580 political knowledge to him at all.

00:05:59.340 But I do find myself disagreeing with him on this subject.

00:06:05.320 And I think that's okay.

00:06:07.040 I think that I can humbly say, look, I know that I don't know as much as people who are

00:06:12.020 farther along than I am.

00:06:13.540 I know that I don't have all of the degrees and all of the experience that he does.

00:06:17.940 And I defer to his wisdom.

00:06:19.540 I'm thankful for his wisdom.

00:06:20.980 I'm thankful for the success that the Lord has accomplished through him and still say,

00:06:24.440 but, but I'm not sure that I can go with you on that.

00:06:28.880 And I'll explain why.

00:06:30.120 The Christian Post also published an op-ed by someone named Adam Groza, who disagrees with

00:06:37.420 John MacArthur.

00:06:38.100 I wanted to read you his perspective.

00:06:40.340 He says, he says this, that there is a big problem with John MacArthur's argument, which

00:06:45.820 is that religious liberty does not, in fact, promote false religion.

00:06:50.140 Religious liberty does not promote religion any more than gun companies promote suicide by 0.84

00:06:54.640 making guns that are routinely used by individuals to commit suicide.

00:06:58.160 Religious liberty is a view that citizens should be free to make individual decisions in regard

00:07:03.000 to lawful worship and that such decisions should be governed with equal protection under

00:07:08.440 the law.

00:07:09.840 He goes on to say, Adam Groza for the Christian Post goes on to say, what about MacArthur's

00:07:14.660 claim that Christianity has flourished without religious freedom and that Christians don't

00:07:18.360 need any help from the government?

00:07:20.000 Well, sure, Christianity doesn't need any help from utility companies either.

00:07:23.720 But I am guessing Grace Community Church is kept cool in the summer and warm in the winter

00:07:27.760 thanks to Southern California Edison or some other provider.

00:07:31.500 It simply doesn't follow that if something is not needed, that something is not good.

00:07:38.060 I am much more sympathetic to Adam Groza's argument in regards to religious liberty than I am

00:07:44.320 John MacArthur's, and I am totally willing to be proven wrong on this.

00:07:49.780 I understand this is a debatable topic.

00:07:53.240 And as someone who is a conservative, I could probably be accused of allowing my political

00:08:01.040 leanings and my admiration of the founding and my admiration of the Constitution, I could be

00:08:09.360 accused of allowing that to color my theology.

00:08:12.480 I don't think that's what I'm doing.

00:08:14.260 I think that I have a pretty good argument for religious liberty that is not in any way

00:08:19.780 contradictory to Scripture and actually is in line with it.

00:08:23.300 So I don't agree with this idea, and this is what Adam Groza said as well.

00:08:29.780 I don't agree with this idea that fighting for religious liberty is fighting for idolatry,

00:08:36.120 is fighting for the promotion of other religions.

00:08:40.860 Religious liberty is what allows and what has allowed, by the grace of God, America to be the

00:08:47.520 number one sender of missionaries, the number one adopter of orphans, the hub for the best

00:08:52.220 hospitals, most of which were founded by Christians, home to the best academic institutions in the

00:08:57.820 world, many of which were founded by Christians.

00:09:00.340 And of course, we understand that many of these institutions, as well as our government,

00:09:04.820 has lost its way, but the freedom, the religious liberty that Christians and people of other

00:09:11.560 religions have enjoyed in the West, and in particular in the United States over the past

00:09:17.580 few hundred years, has been used by the power of God, according to the grace of God, in

00:09:25.640 magnificent ways.

00:09:27.260 I'm not saying that God needed religious liberty to do that, but he doesn't really need any vessel,

00:09:33.880 and yet he chooses to use certain vessels and certain policies to accomplish his goals.

00:09:39.480 And it's hard for me to look at the history of the United States and the history of the influence

00:09:46.680 of Christianity in the United States and abroad and not thank God for the religious liberty that was 0.84

00:09:54.140 so obviously used by him to help advance his gospel.

00:09:58.160 Again, that's not saying that God needed that religious liberty in order to do that, but he so 1.00

00:10:03.680 obviously used it and it was so obviously good that it's hard for me not to say, wow, this is an

00:10:09.040 amazing blessing that we should absolutely try to preserve.

00:10:13.740 And it's not just about the preservation or the promotion of Christianity, although as a Christian and

00:10:20.320 as someone who believes that Christianity, who knows that Christianity, although people have

00:10:25.520 done terrible things in the name and the false name of Christianity, Christianity, followers of 0.99

00:10:32.120 Christ have done more good for the world, for the poor, for the vulnerable, for the least of these

00:10:36.540 than any other group by far.

00:10:40.000 It's not even just about that as a Christian.

00:10:43.840 It is also about protecting other people who are covered by religious liberty.

00:10:51.340 Like, let's think about countries where there's not religious liberty, because it's not just 0.91

00:10:55.600 Christians who are persecuted.

00:10:57.040 It's about it's people of all faiths in China, where one million Uyghur Muslims are forcibly 1.00

00:11:02.240 sterilized in concentration camps.

00:11:04.280 Like, I'm not sure that that is preferable to, quote, idolatry, allowing being allowed to flourish

00:11:12.540 under religious liberty.

00:11:14.360 In India, Buddhists are violently persecuted against.

00:11:17.280 In the Middle East, all kinds of people are tortured and put to death for not believing in Islam.

00:11:22.920 In Western countries, the threat to religious liberty looks like legislation in Australia,

00:11:27.180 which under the guise of protecting kids from so-called conversion therapy, it bans pastors,

00:11:33.400 counselors, mentors, and parents from discussing gender and sexuality in any way that may be

00:11:38.820 considered, quote, non-affirming.

00:11:40.880 And according to the bill, that includes, quote, carrying out a religious practice, including

00:11:46.000 but not limited to a prayer-based practice.

00:11:48.640 So this is not just banning actual terrible conversion therapy.

00:11:52.640 This is banning any kind of speech, especially religious speech, that might question the progressive,

00:11:59.060 non-affirming stance of gender identity, even when it comes to children, even when it comes

00:12:04.780 to what parents talk about with their kids and pray about over their kids.

00:12:08.280 Is that really better for children or teens or adults who may be struggling or confused

00:12:13.460 and who genuinely want help from the church in that way?

00:12:18.100 In America, it looks like religious adoption agencies losing funding and being forced to

00:12:22.600 close down because they won't affirm the secular progressive definition of the family so that

00:12:27.160 now all of those kids who were under their care are just subject to the whims of the state.

00:12:32.420 Religious liberty is not about promoting one religion over another.

00:12:39.000 Religion, Christianity in particular, and the freedom to practice it, to speak it, to operate

00:12:45.060 your business or organization or lead your family according to it, serve as a buffer between

00:12:50.880 the most vulnerable and the merciless state.

00:12:54.120 But it is true, it is 100% true that the church does not need religious liberty to survive and

00:13:01.680 to thrive.

00:13:02.180 That is 1,000% true.

00:13:04.060 If you look at the church in China, if you look at what Christians throughout the Middle

00:13:07.300 East and Africa are enduring, it's stunning that the numbers continue to grow. 1.00

00:13:12.220 Matthew 16, 8, the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.

00:13:16.600 It's also true that the church actually thrives on the margins, that we don't have to fight

00:13:21.480 to be mainstream in the hopes that God's will will be done.

00:13:24.680 God's will will be done.

00:13:26.780 Job 42, 2, no plans of God can be thwarted.

00:13:30.340 The word of God will not fail.

00:13:31.760 The will of God will not be thwarted.

00:13:34.500 We can trust that.

00:13:35.480 We can know that for sure.

00:13:36.720 We don't have to be desperate to try to keep Christianity mainstream if that is not God's 0.95

00:13:43.540 will.

00:13:43.740 But in this mysterious and miraculous concurrence that we live in, where God's total sovereignty

00:13:52.600 is interplaying with our actions, our obedience or disobedience, we are still to do what is

00:14:00.320 right here.

00:14:01.040 We are still to do what is right for the least of these.

00:14:04.580 We still want to push policies that are best for families, that are best for churches, that

00:14:10.080 are best for children, that are best for the most vulnerable people in our society.

00:14:14.960 And like I said, religious freedom allows religious organizations, in particular Christian

00:14:20.060 organizations, to serve as that protection, that buffer between the most vulnerable and

00:14:25.460 the merciless policies of the state.

00:14:29.420 And so if I care about the well-being of this country, it's not just about whether or not the

00:14:35.360 church rises and falls on religious liberty, because I know it doesn't. 0.89

00:14:38.100 But if I care about the well-being of this country, which I think that I am called to

00:14:42.160 do, then yes, I do care about religious liberty.

00:14:45.600 Of course I do.

00:14:46.800 And yes, that means that other people are going to be able to practice their religions too.

00:14:52.440 Religions that I do not agree with. 1.00

00:14:55.120 Religions that I believe are wrong. 1.00

00:14:57.120 Yes, that's true.

00:14:58.480 But it also gives us the liberty to be able to speak as boldly and as freely as possible.

00:15:04.380 And again, I know even if we don't have that freedom, we are to continue to speak, we are

00:15:09.860 to continue to obey, and we absolutely will.

00:15:13.160 But what an amazing miracle, what an amazing respite Christians have had throughout church

00:15:19.260 history in the West, and in particular in the United States, to be able to freely preach

00:15:23.560 these things.

00:15:24.400 How wonderful that God has chosen to use religious liberty as a vessel to help so many people,

00:15:31.300 not just spiritually, but also meeting their physical needs.

00:15:35.460 I think of Jeremiah 29, 5 through 7.

00:15:40.180 And of course, we know that this is Jeremiah's letter to the exiles.

00:15:46.040 And we know that America is not ancient Israel.

00:15:50.480 And so I say that a lot.

00:15:51.560 I am not saying that the United States is now the new Israel and God's chosen people because

00:15:57.340 it's not like we know that God's chosen people is the universal church of Jesus Christ and

00:16:05.020 that believers are his chosen ones.

00:16:09.280 We are the ones, all of us believers, no matter where you live, are the ones who are exiles

00:16:14.300 here on earth.

00:16:15.680 So that is the comparison to Israel in the Old Testament, not the United States.

00:16:20.320 I still think that we can read about Israel in the Old Testament and apply the same principles

00:16:26.580 that we who are Christians, who are here in the United States or anywhere, are serving

00:16:32.320 as exiles in the same way that Israel was an exile, for example, in Babylon, and that we

00:16:41.020 can operate under the same principles that God gave to them.

00:16:45.640 And one of those principles was to seek the welfare of the city in which God had placed

00:16:51.560 them.

00:16:52.280 So this is Jeremiah 29, 5 through, let's see, we'll do 5 through 7.

00:16:58.280 Build houses and live in them.

00:16:59.720 Plant gardens and eat their produce.

00:17:01.540 Take wives and have sons and daughters. 0.99

00:17:03.820 Take wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage that they may bear sons and daughters. 0.98

00:17:08.560 Multiply there and do not decrease.

00:17:10.280 But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile and pray to the Lord on

00:17:16.320 its behalf, for in its welfare, you will find your welfare.

00:17:22.080 So it seems to me that Christians, wherever we are, whether we're in the United States or

00:17:28.320 whether we're in England or somewhere in the Middle East or whether we're in Asia, it doesn't

00:17:32.820 matter.

00:17:34.100 Wherever Christians are, we are exiles on earth.

00:17:37.340 Our home, our citizenship is in heaven.

00:17:39.200 Yet while we are here, it seems that we are called to advance the welfare of the city of

00:17:45.900 the nation in which we are dwelling.

00:17:48.720 That doesn't mean that we depend on religious liberty for our happiness, for our obedience,

00:17:54.800 for our contentment, and for our comfort.

00:17:57.500 But because we care about the least of these, because we care not just about Christians who

00:18:02.040 are persecuted, but all people who are persecuted.

00:18:04.260 Because we don't like what we see going on in places like China, we absolutely should care 1.00

00:18:09.960 about religious liberty.

00:18:12.460 That is part of seeking the welfare of the country in which we are dwelling.

00:18:17.400 So that's my take on all of that.

00:18:19.980 And again, I'm willing to have pushback on that.

00:18:24.080 I have gotten a lot of thoughtful emails in the past couple weeks after the Max Lucado

00:18:29.780 and Ravi Zacharias episode that we did.

00:18:32.800 And I always appreciate thoughtful and biblical emails.

00:18:35.400 I read them.

00:18:36.540 They make me think.

00:18:37.760 There's a lot of trolly type of emails too that I just don't read.

00:18:41.580 But you guys always give me good perspectives and good thoughts.

00:18:44.980 And I appreciate that.

00:18:45.740 I welcome them in this case because I could see how I would be, how I could possibly be

00:18:50.600 getting something wrong.

00:18:51.880 But it's hard for me to track with this argument that promoting religious liberty promotes

00:18:57.180 idolatry.

00:18:58.040 Promoting idolatry promotes idolatry.

00:19:00.380 But promoting the freedom to be able to make individual choices is not a direct promotion

00:19:07.040 of idolatry.

00:19:09.380 And we see that the alternative to that is very bad, not just for Christians, but for

00:19:15.600 all people.

00:19:16.600 All right, I'm going to get into this Beth Moore story.

00:19:24.180 All right, this is According to Christianity Today.

00:19:27.140 Beth Moore says she is no longer a Southern Baptist.

00:19:32.020 So I think a lot of people who didn't grow up in the evangelical church, either you grew

00:19:35.660 up Catholic or maybe you didn't grow up in the church at all, have some confusion

00:19:39.080 about what denominations are.

00:19:41.580 And it is, it's very confusing.

00:19:43.880 And it's kind of like the nuances of a particular language.

00:19:47.560 Like if you didn't grow up speaking a language, it can be hard to understand like all of the 1.00

00:19:52.700 intricacies and the nuances and the slang that comes with the language.

00:19:56.980 It's very Christianese to talk about the different kinds of denominations.

00:20:01.420 So the Southern Baptist Convention is a particular denomination of Baptists.

00:20:06.100 You can be a Baptist without being part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:20:10.780 And there are, you know, different theological tenets that come with being a Baptist.

00:20:14.980 One of them is being a credo Baptist. 0.58

00:20:17.300 That means you believe in believer's baptism rather than, for example, infant baptism.

00:20:22.980 Most Presbyterians do infant baptism.

00:20:25.380 Catholics obviously do infant baptism. 0.69

00:20:27.780 But Baptists do not do infant baptism.

00:20:31.080 We don't believe that that is part of a necessary consecration of a child to the Lord.

00:20:38.160 And we could get into all of that, but I won't get into that right now because we don't have

00:20:42.640 time.

00:20:43.380 But you can be a Baptist without being a part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:20:46.980 There are lots of churches, not just in the South, but are part of the Southern Baptist

00:20:52.520 Convention.

00:20:53.060 And there are, there's a particular confession that Southern Baptist churches must adhere

00:20:58.180 to and must affirm to be a part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:21:02.660 There is, you know, if you're a United Methodist Church, there is a certain creed that you abide

00:21:09.040 by.

00:21:09.800 If you are a Lutheran, that's another denomination.

00:21:13.760 And so there are lots of different denominations within the Protestant Church.

00:21:17.300 Some of our disagreements are more gospel-centered, like if it is a works-based salvation or if

00:21:28.560 it's by grace through faith, like Ephesians 2, 8 through 10 says.

00:21:32.560 So we've got some bigger disagreements between these denominations, and we also have some smaller

00:21:38.500 disagreements between denominations, for example.

00:21:41.120 So there's Presbyterian Church of America, there's Presbyterian Church of the United States

00:21:48.520 of America, one is more liberal, one is more conservative.

00:21:51.980 The conservative Presbyterians tend to align with Southern Baptists on a lot of theological

00:21:56.660 issues, but one issue that we disagree on is infant baptism.

00:22:01.240 Of course, like I said, but we don't regard that as a salvation issue.

00:22:06.260 Like I've got a lot of friends who are Presbyterians.

00:22:08.740 When I went to college, I went to a Presbyterian Church for a part of college, and so that, you

00:22:16.300 know, infant baptism, eschatology, these are all very important issues, but we don't

00:22:20.620 typically regard these as salvation issues.

00:22:23.360 And then within denominations, you also have different beliefs.

00:22:27.560 For example, Calvinism versus Arminianism, and there are a lot of differences in Calvinism

00:22:33.380 and Arminianism, but one disagreement that we have is predestination versus free will when

00:22:39.940 it comes to salvation.

00:22:42.180 And so there are some secondary and tertiary, although very important, disagreements between

00:22:48.040 all of these different groups.

00:22:49.800 But when it comes to denominations, Beth Moore leaving the Southern Baptist Convention is not

00:22:55.820 leaving necessarily, necessarily and explicitly a particular belief system, but just a particular

00:23:02.300 group of churches.

00:23:03.560 So I hope that's clear as mud.

00:23:06.880 And this is kind of, we've seen this coming for a while.

00:23:10.440 She has certainly gotten louder politically over the past few years. 1.00

00:23:14.360 She has been a voice for a kind of anti-Trumpism within the evangelical church.

00:23:19.880 She has been pushed back on, for example, for preaching to men in certain contexts.

00:23:25.520 She has been questioned about her stance on sexuality and her partnering and friendship

00:23:30.300 with particular teachers that most Christians would consider false teachers.

00:23:34.940 And so there's been a lot of, and not just that, people also have questioned some of her

00:23:39.280 teachings and whether or not they're biblically solid.

00:23:41.760 Like if she believes in kind of this word of faith, name it and claim it, contemplative prayer

00:23:48.740 type thing that a lot of people are troubled by.

00:23:51.380 So she is no stranger to controversy, especially over the past few years.

00:23:55.540 She is no stranger to criticism, especially over the past few years.

00:23:58.840 Of course, her simply having controversy and criticism, it doesn't necessarily make her

00:24:05.080 controversial or worthy of criticism.

00:24:08.300 And I'm not saying that she's not either, but I'm just saying the existence and the

00:24:12.000 presence of those things don't necessarily validate criticisms and controversy, if that

00:24:16.340 makes sense.

00:24:16.960 But you guys know that I do disagree with Beth Moore on a variety of things.

00:24:22.500 I've talked about that.

00:24:23.520 I've talked about how she has kind of waded into the waters of wokeness in particular areas 0.74

00:24:33.580 and how I just think that she's wrong on that.

00:24:35.200 She's talked about Christian nationalism and multiple times I've tried to press her on what

00:24:39.400 she actually means by the things that she is saying.

00:24:42.000 I have tried to get her to define her terms in a variety of contexts.

00:24:47.340 And unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any kind of response to that.

00:24:51.860 And so I am not particularly surprised by her leaving the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:24:56.720 There were a few other churches that decided to leave the Southern Baptist Convention after

00:25:01.100 the SBC came out opposing critical race theory and saying, look, like, of course, we believe

00:25:07.100 that racism is wrong.

00:25:08.140 Of course, we believe that we should reckon with any kind of part of our history that

00:25:13.240 still needs to be confronted or any wrongs that need to be righted.

00:25:16.060 But we believe that critical race theory is the wrong way to go about that, which is absolutely

00:25:19.640 true.

00:25:19.940 So, by the way, it's like, duh, I don't even see why that's controversial at all.

00:25:24.340 But some churches that people would probably categorize in some ways as more progressive,

00:25:31.040 at least when it comes to so-called racial justice, they decided to leave the SBC.

00:25:36.320 And Beth Moore also decided to leave the SBC, maybe not for the same reasons, but I would

00:25:42.260 guess that's probably part of it.

00:25:44.300 She has also tried to bring up instances of emotional and maybe even sexual abuse.

00:25:49.840 within the SBC that she doesn't believe that they have properly taken care of.

00:25:55.520 It seems like she also has had, you know, she has a lot of good relationships within

00:26:01.080 the SBC.

00:26:01.560 And so most of the people that I saw that she has been friends with kind of applauded

00:26:06.100 her for this, patted her on the back.

00:26:07.640 She also ended her relationship with Lifeway Christian that they have published her books

00:26:14.300 and they have sponsored her events for a very long time.

00:26:17.520 And she is no longer doing that.

00:26:19.040 But it sounds like she's leaving on good, on good terms.

00:26:24.100 And so honestly, I don't necessarily have a whole lot of insight into this.

00:26:31.660 I don't really have very many thoughts on this.

00:26:34.300 This is kind of expected of Beth Moore.

00:26:36.740 She's got lots and lots of followers and readers and people that she has influenced and

00:26:41.740 people that really love her.

00:26:42.700 She's also got a lot of critics.

00:26:45.400 I have been someone who has critiqued her theology in some of her studies and stances in the past.

00:26:53.020 At the same time, I totally understand why people like her.

00:26:55.780 I totally understand why people love her.

00:26:57.600 Speaking of her and speaking of John MacArthur, you'll remember, I think it was about a year

00:27:03.660 ago, the controversy of him telling Beth Moore that she needs to go home, that she basically

00:27:11.720 needs to stop preaching from the pulpit, preaching to men from the pulpit, and she needs to go home. 0.69

00:27:17.920 At the time, I did not like how that whole thing was handled.

00:27:21.620 I thought that it seemed like they were making fun of her with an attitude that wasn't of edification,

00:27:28.800 but was a little malicious and patronizing and belittling.

00:27:33.680 At the same time, when it comes to theology and when it comes to who I trust, as far as

00:27:38.480 teaching goes, I am going to go with John MacArthur.

00:27:43.200 So there's been some tension between conservative evangelicals and Beth Moore for a while, not

00:27:50.740 just because of her preaching in front of men and not just because of her theology, but

00:27:55.280 also because of her politics and the politics of the SBC is something that she probably just 0.60

00:28:02.700 doesn't align with.

00:28:03.980 And maybe she also, like I said, has a problem with how they've dealt with conflict and how

00:28:09.760 they've dealt with racial issues and how they've dealt with accusations of abuse.

00:28:13.880 And so, I mean, that's that.

00:28:16.500 That doesn't really affect me all that much.

00:28:19.000 I don't think it necessarily affects anyone.

00:28:20.880 When I saw some reporting saying that, oh, a lot of people are going to follow Beth Moore 0.52

00:28:26.040 out of the SBC, I highly doubt that a single person, like I highly doubt that if a woman 1.00

00:28:33.520 goes to her church, she likes her church, she agrees with the teaching, she serves at her

00:28:39.760 church, she respects her pastor, and that church happens to be a part of the SBC, that woman is not 0.83

00:28:44.880 going to get up and change churches.

00:28:46.360 And especially if she is married to someone who also feels at home at a particular church

00:28:52.100 and is under solid teaching, like that woman is not going to get up and leave her church.

00:28:56.520 And nor should you, by the way.

00:28:58.480 Like, please do not leave your church on behalf of Beth Moore.

00:29:02.280 Leave your church if it's unbiblical teaching.

00:29:04.680 Leave your church if it's not, if your pastor isn't preaching the gospel.

00:29:08.120 Leave your church if he's not preaching sin and salvation and repentance 100%.

00:29:12.660 But please do not leave your church because Beth Moore left the SBC. 0.90

00:29:16.020 That would be such a silly and flippant reason.

00:29:18.340 I think so often the people that report on changes within Christianity or any kind of 0.91

00:29:23.980 event that happens within Christianity, they still have their secular goggles on.

00:29:29.220 And so they are viewing the church in Christianity through the lens of their secular worldview,

00:29:33.820 not understanding how families and churches and dynamics and choices work within the church.

00:29:41.140 If you feel like you need to leave your church, like I said, use discernment, use prayer,

00:29:45.320 talk to people, talk to your pastor.

00:29:47.880 I would encourage you before you do so.

00:29:50.800 But please do not make that kind of decision based on Beth Moore.

00:29:54.860 Honestly, we don't even know the full reasons why she left the SBC.

00:29:59.160 So it would be so silly of us to make a choice based on something that Beth Moore does.

00:30:04.260 Now, there is a lot of information out there if you're curious about the things that Beth Moore

00:30:11.020 has taught, why people call her a false teacher.

00:30:14.680 There's a lot of information out there about that.

00:30:17.960 And there are legitimate concerns with her teaching that you can read about.

00:30:22.700 I would encourage you not to shut your mind off to that concern and to that accusation if you're

00:30:30.080 someone who, like me, has read a lot of her stuff and felt like you benefited from a lot of her stuff,

00:30:35.640 her talks, her books, maybe when you were in college like I was.

00:30:40.520 I would just hear out the concerns about that.

00:30:43.500 I am not a heretic hunter.

00:30:45.800 And I don't have time to like comb through every person's sermons and books.

00:30:51.000 I mean, sometimes it's very obvious.

00:30:52.740 We can call out particular false teachers and false teachings.

00:30:56.260 Other times it's not as obvious, but I do always call us to discernment and call us to thoughtfulness

00:31:03.520 and call us to prayer.

00:31:05.760 And so if you're curious about why even people say that or accuse her of that, then there's

00:31:11.660 plenty of information about that online if you want to know that point of view.

00:31:17.340 As for this particular story, I don't have that much to say.

00:31:21.020 Okay, she left the SBC.

00:31:22.800 See, I kind of think that I understand why it doesn't affect my belief system in any way.

00:31:29.600 It really doesn't affect me.

00:31:31.300 And it probably honestly doesn't affect her all that much either.

00:31:34.840 All right.

00:31:35.460 That's all I have to say about those two stories.

00:31:38.440 And now we're going to talk a little bit about the If Gathering.

00:31:42.060 And I have just a message on a particular topic that is weighing on me that you guys know has

00:31:47.300 been weighing on me for a long time since I started this podcast.

00:31:50.880 And I just kind of want to clear some things up about something that seems to be very confusing

00:31:57.720 and concerning to a lot of you.

00:32:04.420 So as most of you guys know, and as I said at the top of this episode,

00:32:07.960 the If Gathering is a huge conference that has been around for a little while now.

00:32:12.820 It's put on by Jenny Allen.

00:32:15.200 She is an author.

00:32:17.080 She is a speaker.

00:32:18.460 She has been a big name in Christian women's circles for a while.

00:32:22.840 And If Gathering has been a very unique conference that has been specially for women.

00:32:32.120 It's supposed to encourage women, to edify women, to walk women through the Bible and help women

00:32:37.720 understand the Bible.

00:32:38.760 Not just that, but to apply that faith to their everyday life.

00:32:43.580 And I've gotten messages for the past few years about the If Gathering asking me if I can talk

00:32:50.720 about it, asking me to address it.

00:32:53.900 And I have vaguely in the past.

00:32:56.680 And it's a little bit difficult because I don't have access to all of the speakers that are there

00:33:03.080 to be able to have a private conversation with them.

00:33:06.080 Mostly, I think that there are good things that are being preached there.

00:33:09.620 There are some things that I disagree with that are being preached there.

00:33:12.700 Thankfully, I was able to watch the session online that a lot of you guys were very concerned

00:33:19.060 about.

00:33:19.520 It was session four.

00:33:20.500 It was about social justice and so-called racial justice, something that we have talked

00:33:24.800 a lot about on this podcast.

00:33:26.400 And we have talked to a lot of other people, other Christians about it on this podcast as

00:33:32.660 well.

00:33:33.040 And I have gotten so many messages from you guys telling me that you are very concerned

00:33:38.580 by what was said and wondering if it was biblically based.

00:33:42.880 The assertion was made that people, for example, that don't hop on board this particular kind

00:33:51.740 of racial reconciliation that this one author is promoting in her books are not part of the

00:33:58.860 remnant, are not part of the true church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against. 0.97

00:34:04.780 And that in itself is troubling when it comes to racism, when it comes to actual injustice,

00:34:11.100 the argument that conservative Christians like me are making is not that racism doesn't

00:34:16.140 exist, that injustice doesn't exist, that we should just ignore it, that we should look

00:34:20.480 off to the side.

00:34:21.460 But that I don't actually think that a lot of what is coming down the pipeline and a lot

00:34:28.040 of what is being presented to us in the way of racial reconciliation is actually biblical

00:34:33.560 at all, but is actually a lot more secular and progressive than anything that is in accordance

00:34:39.020 to scripture.

00:34:39.740 And that would include this particular author's work, by the way.

00:34:44.880 And so I understand your concerns.

00:34:47.340 I don't feel comfortable like calling certain people out and things like that.

00:34:52.720 I'm just not sure if that's fruitful.

00:34:54.100 I'm not sure if that's productive.

00:34:55.160 I don't want to take away from any truly scriptural benefit that women got from this, not from 0.83

00:35:03.640 this particular session, but from the conference in general.

00:35:07.280 And like I said, I am not like some kind of heretic headhunter.

00:35:11.560 That's not what I want to do.

00:35:12.760 But I do want to infuse clarity where there seems to be confusion, especially when it comes

00:35:18.280 to social and racial justice.

00:35:22.280 So I get lots of questions about particular teachers and Bible studies and women's conferences

00:35:27.340 and whether or not I think that they're solid or not.

00:35:31.060 And I can't answer all of these questions because I don't always have enough information

00:35:36.260 to make an assessment, like I said.

00:35:38.500 And I do want to avoid gossip.

00:35:40.900 And two, of course, I am very thankfully not the arbiter of who is solid and who is not.

00:35:47.440 But we do have a really good way to discern which teachers are worth following or which

00:35:53.580 teachings are worth following and which ones are not based on God's word.

00:35:58.720 And so I just want to talk about this subject that I think is throwing so many people into

00:36:04.740 a wheel of confusion, leading so many people in the wrong direction that even teachers that

00:36:09.800 we typically deem solid seem to be getting wrong.

00:36:14.660 And we talk about it a lot, and that is this race and justice issue.

00:36:18.940 And I know some of you might be thinking, who am I to talk about this subject?

00:36:23.720 I'm just a white girl.

00:36:24.720 I'm just a podcaster.

00:36:26.120 I'm just 29.

00:36:27.740 Why would I be talking about this?

00:36:29.500 And if you want to dismiss me for those reasons, that's totally fine.

00:36:33.900 You can click away.

00:36:34.840 But I will point out that doing so, discounting what I'm going to say based on that alone is

00:36:42.780 a logical fallacy, a form of the appeal to authority fallacy that dismisses someone's

00:36:47.160 argument based on their seeming lack of authority rather than contending with the argument that

00:36:52.080 they're actually giving.

00:36:53.060 So I encourage you, if you will, to hang with me.

00:36:57.420 This is a subject that we talk a lot about on this podcast.

00:37:00.180 But in light of the recent comments that I listened to at this gathering made by some

00:37:07.920 very influential speakers at a very influential place, I feel the need to kind of clear some

00:37:15.080 things up for you guys.

00:37:17.100 So let me just say this.

00:37:19.340 According to the Bible, there is no black church and white church.

00:37:23.320 There are different churches in different communities, neighborhoods, cities, countries,

00:37:28.260 but black and white churches are not real or biblical categories.

00:37:33.400 Ultimately, of course, we know that there is one church, the ethnic makeup of which was

00:37:37.800 preordained by God before the foundation of the world.

00:37:41.060 Ephesians 1.4 says, he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be

00:37:45.820 holy and blameless before him.

00:37:48.080 So that means a couple of things.

00:37:50.060 That means that any history of racism in the Christian church is an egregious sin that we

00:37:55.460 should have no problem examining and confronting with specificity and with wisdom.

00:38:01.100 James 2.9, but if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the

00:38:06.060 law as transgressors.

00:38:07.940 So partiality is a sin.

00:38:09.800 That also means that the way to right any racist wrongs is not a new form of partiality that

00:38:16.940 categorizes the church as white versus black and preaches a gospel of repentance to the former 0.82

00:38:22.920 and a different, softer gospel to the latter.

00:38:25.600 And we'll get back to that in just a second.

00:38:27.880 But first, in all of these conversations, it is so important to define our terms.

00:38:33.060 So what is meant by white church and black church when the church is referred to in this

00:38:38.320 way?

00:38:38.540 Are we really just talking about skin color?

00:38:40.860 Are progressive white churches included in that?

00:38:43.700 What about Asian churches?

00:38:44.960 Where do they fall in all of this?

00:38:46.520 What about multi-ethnic churches?

00:38:47.900 Or are we just talking about conservative white evangelical Christians when we say the

00:38:53.580 term white church?

00:38:54.920 Are we really talking more about political and ideological differences in the church than

00:38:59.660 primarily ethnic differences in the church?

00:39:02.440 Because neither the churches whose congregants have a high melanin count or a low melanin count

00:39:07.720 share all the views and experiences of other churches with the same kind of racial makeup.

00:39:13.540 So I find those categories not only unbiblical, but also illogical.

00:39:19.580 Therefore, the conversation about reconciling the white church and the black church as it

00:39:24.900 stands does not make a whole lot of sense because we're not even really sure who we're

00:39:29.640 talking about.

00:39:31.140 And this is the problem with forgiveness and repentance that is based on collective culpability

00:39:36.320 according to your skin color rather than on direct culpability according to what you have

00:39:41.800 actually done or not done.

00:39:44.500 We do not see any biblical precedent for collective racial grievance or repentance based on skin

00:39:50.300 color.

00:39:51.360 The examples of collective responsibility for sin in the Bible are typically taken from the

00:39:56.140 books of Ezra and Daniel.

00:39:58.580 But even in these stories, Ezra and Daniel were talking about sins that were currently and

00:40:03.420 actively being committed by their entire communities.

00:40:06.220 And any attempts to point to Israel's collective guilt and calls to repentance fail to recognize

00:40:13.640 that Israel was God's cohesive covenant people. 0.60

00:40:17.020 White people, brown people, black people as groups today are not that. 0.97

00:40:22.120 The fact is, as a white person, you might be racist. 0.94

00:40:25.660 You may have sat by as leaders in your church mistreated black people in your congregation or in 0.95

00:40:32.960 leadership or preached the curse of Ham, for example, from your pulpit, and you may have

00:40:38.180 to reckon with that. 0.90

00:40:39.740 But you, as a white person, may not be.

00:40:42.980 You may have no culpability and no complicity to speak of when it comes to the sin of ethnic 1.00

00:40:48.020 partiality or ethnic pride.

00:40:50.060 And it is not difficult for you to feel the direct weight of sin that may or may not be carried

00:40:55.060 by those who look like you.

00:40:56.660 You, as a black or brown person, may be racist or not. 0.76

00:41:02.900 You could have a sinful pride or arrogance in your racial identity that God does not call 0.66

00:41:06.940 any Christian of any color to have. 0.54

00:41:09.380 You could assume the worst about people who don't look like you.

00:41:11.980 You may be holding people in contempt because you ascribe to them the sin of racism without

00:41:16.320 knowing them.

00:41:17.560 Or that may not describe you at all.

00:41:20.180 And it should never be assumed that it does.

00:41:22.700 If you want people of all ethnicities to be brought together, then we've got to stop 1.00

00:41:28.620 pitting the ethnicities against each other as if what we look like speaks to whether we

00:41:33.460 have been harmed or whether we have harmed in the church, because that's just not true.

00:41:39.100 And I'm going to say something that I know makes some people mad, but I would urge you to

00:41:47.260 just hear me, even if you end up disagreeing.

00:41:52.780 The idea that we are identified by your skin color, white or black, and then are categorized

00:41:58.660 as oppressed or oppressor based on those skin colors is a tenet not of Christianity, but of

00:42:06.360 critical race theory, which is a secular ideology that views every part of our world through black

00:42:13.940 versus white racial power structure lenses.

00:42:18.900 And I know, I know the reaction to that phrase from some.

00:42:23.980 It's, you don't even know what critical theory is.

00:42:26.520 You just read a blog about critical theory.

00:42:28.580 Try me.

00:42:29.440 Let's go.

00:42:30.220 Let's talk about it.

00:42:32.060 The truth is CRT has a different view of human nature, a different view of oppression, a different

00:42:37.920 view of justice, a different view of history, a different view of reconciliation and repentance

00:42:42.680 of restoration, and it employs the sin of partiality against the so-called oppressors to achieve

00:42:49.320 those goals, and it's not godly.

00:42:52.100 There is justice, and there should be.

00:42:54.780 It's biblical justice.

00:42:56.000 There is reconciliation, biblical reconciliation.

00:42:59.120 There is repentance, biblical repentance.

00:43:01.940 But these things will not be founded nor described by differing messages to white Christians

00:43:07.500 and black Christians based on an ideology that is secular rather than scriptural. 0.91

00:43:13.880 The message is, look, white, black, red, brown, you are dead in your sin apart from Christ. 0.98

00:43:20.680 You're not more dead than him or her.

00:43:22.920 You don't need Christ more or less than them.

00:43:25.300 You're not going to be judged more or less harshly for your sin than they will be.

00:43:30.400 Your ancestors were sinners.

00:43:32.440 Your ancestors were sinners.

00:43:33.740 You're not guilty for the sins of your ancestors, and you're not guilty for the sins of your 0.94

00:43:39.600 ancestors.

00:43:40.720 Your job is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to respond to Jesus' call and be reconciled

00:43:46.100 to him and live a holy life by loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength,

00:43:50.380 and to love your neighbor as yourself without partiality.

00:43:54.220 That does not mean that we don't acknowledge differences in ethnicity.

00:43:58.020 We do.

00:43:58.840 God gave us our ethnicity, so they are good.

00:44:01.180 They are worth thanking him for.

00:44:02.360 We should be grateful for the exact melanin count that God gave us because he made us

00:44:07.800 with purpose and intention and love and affection and care, but we are not automatically oppressed

00:44:14.140 or an oppressor because of that melanin count that is not a biblical reality and that is not

00:44:19.900 actual reality.

00:44:21.620 That doesn't mean that we ignore the different experiences or the different perspectives people

00:44:26.000 of different skin colors may have or have had.

00:44:28.720 That doesn't mean that we look past true oppression when it happens or racism when it happens,

00:44:34.440 whether individual or structural.

00:44:36.500 But it does mean that when we're talking about righting wrongs, we have to be two things.

00:44:41.420 One, specific, and two, scriptural.

00:44:44.820 So when we talk about racism or any injustice today, we need to say what exactly we are talking

00:44:51.080 about.

00:44:51.340 Not just listing off disparities between groups because disparities alone do not prove discrimination.

00:44:58.280 We have to make sure what we're claiming is in line, not just with what we hear, not just

00:45:03.640 with what someone is claiming, not just with a hashtag, but with what the numbers say, what

00:45:08.820 history says, what the facts say.

00:45:11.000 We have to be specific in who is responsible specifically and who is affected specifically.

00:45:17.960 And when we see real injustice that is happening and we seek to right that wrong, which we

00:45:23.880 should, our definition of justice has to be God's definition of justice, which is, as

00:45:29.520 we have talked about and cited so many times before, one, truthful, two, proportional, three,

00:45:36.360 direct, and four, impartial.

00:45:38.780 It is always based on what is actually true, not based on narrative or politics or ideology.

00:45:44.000 It is always proportional.

00:45:45.840 The punishment fits the crime.

00:45:47.280 It is always direct.

00:45:48.620 Those who are responsible and those who are true victims are the ones involved.

00:45:53.140 And it is impartial.

00:45:54.800 It does not favor the richer, the poor, the small or the great, the black or the white.

00:45:59.860 That last one, impartial, we see reiterated over and over again throughout scripture, how

00:46:06.000 much God hates partiality, which is exactly why Christians should hate racism and why we should

00:46:11.600 also hate any new forms of partiality that are proposed in the name of fighting racism or

00:46:16.520 achieving so-called racial equity.

00:46:19.080 So if there is tension between Christians of different ethnicities or different socioeconomic

00:46:24.420 statuses, which, by the way, we don't talk about very much, but the book of James, for

00:46:28.840 example, certainly talks about a lot.

00:46:30.900 We don't need to borrow from secular ideologies to do it.

00:46:34.300 If there is injustice, we don't need wisdom from the world to confront it.

00:46:39.560 The God of justice, God who sent his son to die on the cross to reconcile us to himself

00:46:45.540 and then Christians of all types to each other, as Ephesians 2.14 lays out for us, that God

00:46:51.180 and his word are the only things that are going to guide us.

00:46:54.000 So if you are racist against a black person or a white person, if you are partial toward

00:46:59.940 one group or another, even if it's in the name of social justice and righting oppression,

00:47:04.220 then that is a gospel heart issue.

00:47:07.100 That means we are not living out the gospel the way that we are supposed to among our neighbors.

00:47:12.940 I often say this, and it's still true. 1.00

00:47:16.420 Do not let anyone make you think that loving God and loving your neighbor is not enough.

00:47:21.740 It is enough.

00:47:23.400 Yes, that absolutely necessitates action, but do not be made to think that those two things

00:47:28.520 are not sufficient in living the godly, impactful life to which God has called you.

00:47:34.500 And I understand the reaction to me saying all of this is that it might just be from some

00:47:39.320 people that you're just uncomfortable with the truth or you just need to listen and learn.

00:47:43.700 And I get it.

00:47:44.820 That's an easy response.

00:47:46.020 It frees you from any kind of obligation to actually respond to what I've said.

00:47:50.980 But think, just as you think it's unfair to be categorized as, for example, a Marxist 0.92

00:47:57.360 just for bringing up the possibility of racism, it is just as foolish for you to accuse someone

00:48:03.300 of ignorance or complicity because they disagree with you.

00:48:06.920 So that's just something to think about.

00:48:08.540 We've talked a lot about justice versus social justice.

00:48:11.480 We've talked a lot about critical race theory.

00:48:13.240 We've talked a lot about systemic racism and all the issues that have been bubbling up over

00:48:17.060 the past year.

00:48:17.680 We've talked to a lot of Christians about it.

00:48:19.700 We have sought God's word about it.

00:48:21.300 And I'm not saying at all that I am the leading authority on this.

00:48:27.800 Not even close.

00:48:28.880 I'm not saying that I know everything or that nothing that I say is up for debate.

00:48:33.580 It is.

00:48:34.640 But gosh, guys, we've got to be better about offering clarity and confusion rather than

00:48:39.500 adding more confusion.

00:48:40.520 And that's what I saw.

00:48:42.020 I saw a lot of vagueness, a lot of biblical language used without any kind of specificity

00:48:51.700 or any kind of true scriptural support.

00:48:54.600 And that's a problem.

00:48:56.240 Like, as Christians, we need to be adding clarity to the confusion.

00:49:00.280 We need to be a respite from the chaos that the world is waging.

00:49:04.340 We don't need to be adding to it with our own versions of Christianese.

00:49:09.460 So those are all my thoughts.

00:49:11.260 I hope that was at least sufficient for the concerns that you guys had on that.

00:49:18.360 All right.

00:49:18.840 Tomorrow, super excited, talking to Senator Rand Paul.

00:49:22.820 He's got a lot to say.

00:49:24.020 I've got a lot to ask him.

00:49:25.640 And it's going to be a really great episode.

00:49:28.200 And so we'll be talking about that.

00:49:29.860 We'll be talking about a couple more news and political items that we have been seeing

00:49:35.680 over the past week or so.

00:49:36.960 So I will see you guys then.

00:49:41.260 Bye.

00:49:42.120 Bye.

00:49:45.640 Bye.

00:49:45.980 Bye.

00:49:46.120 Bye.

00:49:46.260 Bye.

00:49:46.820 Bye.

00:49:47.420 Bye.

00:49:48.260 Bye.

00:49:48.520 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 10, 2021

Ep 383 ｜ My Disagreements with IF：Gathering, John MacArthur & Beth Moore

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript