Ep 383 ｜ My Disagreements with IF：Gathering, John MacArthur & Beth Moore
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode of Relatable, I discuss the IF Gathering, John MacArthur, and Beth Moore leaving the Southern Baptist Convention. I also discuss why I would not fight for a religious freedom because I would fight for idolatry.
Transcript
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I'm super excited about today's episode because we're going to talk about three subjects that
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you guys have been asking me to cover this week.
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They're hot topics within the evangelical church.
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That is a large Christian women's conference, which is being streamed nationally, maybe
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And I have gotten so many messages from you guys asking me for my thoughts on it.
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So this is not going to be, it's not going to be any kind of like call out or accusations
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I'm going to give you my thoughts on a particular subject that was covered that you guys expressed
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First, I'm going to talk about John MacArthur and his statement that I wouldn't fight for
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religious freedom because I won't fight for idolatry.
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I'll tell you what I think about that as someone who cares about religious liberty and does say
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And also someone who aligns pretty solidly theologically with John MacArthur, someone who admires him
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I'll also give you some thoughts on Beth Moore leaving the SBC.
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So before we get started, I do want to say if you love this podcast and it has been helpful
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Message me if that's something that you want to do.
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But please feel free also to leave a five-star review on Apple if that's where you listen.
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If you watch the podcast, that really is super helpful to me and super helpful to the show.
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Thank you to those of you who already have done that.
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But if you haven't, feel free to leave that five-star review if you truly love the show.
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Okay, let's start with this John MacArthur story.
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So according to the Christian Post, John MacArthur said, I would not fight for religious freedom
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John MacArthur says that he doesn't support religious liberty as a core component of American
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cultural values because it allows for idolatry.
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The Christian Post goes on to report it this way.
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The pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, was giving his State of the
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It was replacing this year's Shepherd Conference, which has been postponed.
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And he, quote, urged evangelicals to stop forming alliances with non-Christian groups to promote
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religious freedom because Christians don't need religious freedom, he argues.
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The gospel offends the sinner and seeks to break the sinner's comfort and contentment by
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bringing him into stark realization of the eternal judgment of God.
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John MacArthur said, evangelicals have become like Peter.
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They are looking for alliances with Satan that they think somehow can aid the kingdom.
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I told our congregation a few weeks ago that I could never really concern myself with a
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I wouldn't fight for a religious freedom because I won't fight for idolatry.
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Why would I fight for the devil to have as many false religions as possible and all of
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He goes on to say, well, people would say that's a terrible thing to say.
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Christianity, and he says, Christianity advances whether there is religious freedom or not.
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Every false religion is going to be free because it's linked to the kingdom of darkness that
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And Christians, whatever the label of religious freedom might be in its broadest sense, Christians
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are always the target, even with religious freedom, of the hostility of sinners.
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And so he goes on to support his argument with scripture.
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For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure or who is
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covetous, that is, an idolater, has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
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For because of these things, the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
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For at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.
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Walk as children of light, for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right
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So this, of course, is going to be a compelling argument by Dr. John MacArthur.
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As I said at the top of this, I love John MacArthur.
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Ironically, it was the podcast episode about religious liberty.
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And if I were you, I would go back and listen to that conversation that we had.
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And, you know, I have disagreed with him on various things.
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He believes certain things about the foundation of America actually being sinful because it
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And I disagree with his eschatological views as well.
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But for the most part, I mean, I really agree with John MacArthur.
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And I know that me even saying that sounds silly because this is a man who has had a faithful
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and wonderful and vibrant and helpful and popular ministry for, I don't know, double the time
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So who am I to disagree with someone like John MacArthur?
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And I'm certainly not claiming to have any kind of superior theological or historical or
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But I do find myself disagreeing with him on this subject.
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I think that I can humbly say, look, I know that I don't know as much as people who are
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I know that I don't have all of the degrees and all of the experience that he does.
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I'm thankful for the success that the Lord has accomplished through him and still say,
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but, but I'm not sure that I can go with you on that.
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The Christian Post also published an op-ed by someone named Adam Groza, who disagrees with
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He says, he says this, that there is a big problem with John MacArthur's argument, which
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is that religious liberty does not, in fact, promote false religion.
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Religious liberty does not promote religion any more than gun companies promote suicide by
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making guns that are routinely used by individuals to commit suicide.
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Religious liberty is a view that citizens should be free to make individual decisions in regard
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to lawful worship and that such decisions should be governed with equal protection under
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He goes on to say, Adam Groza for the Christian Post goes on to say, what about MacArthur's
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claim that Christianity has flourished without religious freedom and that Christians don't
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Well, sure, Christianity doesn't need any help from utility companies either.
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But I am guessing Grace Community Church is kept cool in the summer and warm in the winter
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thanks to Southern California Edison or some other provider.
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It simply doesn't follow that if something is not needed, that something is not good.
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I am much more sympathetic to Adam Groza's argument in regards to religious liberty than I am
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John MacArthur's, and I am totally willing to be proven wrong on this.
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And as someone who is a conservative, I could probably be accused of allowing my political
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leanings and my admiration of the founding and my admiration of the Constitution, I could be
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I think that I have a pretty good argument for religious liberty that is not in any way
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contradictory to Scripture and actually is in line with it.
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So I don't agree with this idea, and this is what Adam Groza said as well.
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I don't agree with this idea that fighting for religious liberty is fighting for idolatry,
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is fighting for the promotion of other religions.
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Religious liberty is what allows and what has allowed, by the grace of God, America to be the
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number one sender of missionaries, the number one adopter of orphans, the hub for the best
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hospitals, most of which were founded by Christians, home to the best academic institutions in the
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world, many of which were founded by Christians.
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And of course, we understand that many of these institutions, as well as our government,
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has lost its way, but the freedom, the religious liberty that Christians and people of other
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religions have enjoyed in the West, and in particular in the United States over the past
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few hundred years, has been used by the power of God, according to the grace of God, in
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I'm not saying that God needed religious liberty to do that, but he doesn't really need any vessel,
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and yet he chooses to use certain vessels and certain policies to accomplish his goals.
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And it's hard for me to look at the history of the United States and the history of the influence
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of Christianity in the United States and abroad and not thank God for the religious liberty that was
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so obviously used by him to help advance his gospel.
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Again, that's not saying that God needed that religious liberty in order to do that, but he so
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obviously used it and it was so obviously good that it's hard for me not to say, wow, this is an
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amazing blessing that we should absolutely try to preserve.
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And it's not just about the preservation or the promotion of Christianity, although as a Christian and
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as someone who believes that Christianity, who knows that Christianity, although people have
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done terrible things in the name and the false name of Christianity, Christianity, followers of
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Christ have done more good for the world, for the poor, for the vulnerable, for the least of these
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It is also about protecting other people who are covered by religious liberty.
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Like, let's think about countries where there's not religious liberty, because it's not just
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It's about it's people of all faiths in China, where one million Uyghur Muslims are forcibly
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Like, I'm not sure that that is preferable to, quote, idolatry, allowing being allowed to flourish
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In India, Buddhists are violently persecuted against.
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In the Middle East, all kinds of people are tortured and put to death for not believing in Islam.
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In Western countries, the threat to religious liberty looks like legislation in Australia,
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which under the guise of protecting kids from so-called conversion therapy, it bans pastors,
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counselors, mentors, and parents from discussing gender and sexuality in any way that may be
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And according to the bill, that includes, quote, carrying out a religious practice, including
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So this is not just banning actual terrible conversion therapy.
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This is banning any kind of speech, especially religious speech, that might question the progressive,
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non-affirming stance of gender identity, even when it comes to children, even when it comes
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to what parents talk about with their kids and pray about over their kids.
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Is that really better for children or teens or adults who may be struggling or confused
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and who genuinely want help from the church in that way?
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In America, it looks like religious adoption agencies losing funding and being forced to
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close down because they won't affirm the secular progressive definition of the family so that
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now all of those kids who were under their care are just subject to the whims of the state.
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Religious liberty is not about promoting one religion over another.
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Religion, Christianity in particular, and the freedom to practice it, to speak it, to operate
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your business or organization or lead your family according to it, serve as a buffer between
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But it is true, it is 100% true that the church does not need religious liberty to survive and
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If you look at the church in China, if you look at what Christians throughout the Middle
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East and Africa are enduring, it's stunning that the numbers continue to grow.
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Matthew 16, 8, the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
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It's also true that the church actually thrives on the margins, that we don't have to fight
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to be mainstream in the hopes that God's will will be done.
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We don't have to be desperate to try to keep Christianity mainstream if that is not God's
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But in this mysterious and miraculous concurrence that we live in, where God's total sovereignty
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is interplaying with our actions, our obedience or disobedience, we are still to do what is
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We are still to do what is right for the least of these.
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We still want to push policies that are best for families, that are best for churches, that
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are best for children, that are best for the most vulnerable people in our society.
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And like I said, religious freedom allows religious organizations, in particular Christian
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organizations, to serve as that protection, that buffer between the most vulnerable and
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And so if I care about the well-being of this country, it's not just about whether or not the
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church rises and falls on religious liberty, because I know it doesn't.
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But if I care about the well-being of this country, which I think that I am called to
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do, then yes, I do care about religious liberty.
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And yes, that means that other people are going to be able to practice their religions too.
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But it also gives us the liberty to be able to speak as boldly and as freely as possible.
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And again, I know even if we don't have that freedom, we are to continue to speak, we are
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But what an amazing miracle, what an amazing respite Christians have had throughout church
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history in the West, and in particular in the United States, to be able to freely preach
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How wonderful that God has chosen to use religious liberty as a vessel to help so many people,
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not just spiritually, but also meeting their physical needs.
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And of course, we know that this is Jeremiah's letter to the exiles.
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And we know that America is not ancient Israel.
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I am not saying that the United States is now the new Israel and God's chosen people because
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it's not like we know that God's chosen people is the universal church of Jesus Christ and
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We are the ones, all of us believers, no matter where you live, are the ones who are exiles
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So that is the comparison to Israel in the Old Testament, not the United States.
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I still think that we can read about Israel in the Old Testament and apply the same principles
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that we who are Christians, who are here in the United States or anywhere, are serving
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as exiles in the same way that Israel was an exile, for example, in Babylon, and that we
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can operate under the same principles that God gave to them.
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And one of those principles was to seek the welfare of the city in which God had placed
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So this is Jeremiah 29, 5 through, let's see, we'll do 5 through 7.
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Take wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage that they may bear sons and daughters.
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But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile and pray to the Lord on
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its behalf, for in its welfare, you will find your welfare.
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So it seems to me that Christians, wherever we are, whether we're in the United States or
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whether we're in England or somewhere in the Middle East or whether we're in Asia, it doesn't
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Wherever Christians are, we are exiles on earth.
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Yet while we are here, it seems that we are called to advance the welfare of the city of
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That doesn't mean that we depend on religious liberty for our happiness, for our obedience,
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But because we care about the least of these, because we care not just about Christians who
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are persecuted, but all people who are persecuted.
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Because we don't like what we see going on in places like China, we absolutely should care
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That is part of seeking the welfare of the country in which we are dwelling.
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And again, I'm willing to have pushback on that.
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I have gotten a lot of thoughtful emails in the past couple weeks after the Max Lucado
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And I always appreciate thoughtful and biblical emails.
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There's a lot of trolly type of emails too that I just don't read.
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But you guys always give me good perspectives and good thoughts.
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I welcome them in this case because I could see how I would be, how I could possibly be
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But it's hard for me to track with this argument that promoting religious liberty promotes
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But promoting the freedom to be able to make individual choices is not a direct promotion
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And we see that the alternative to that is very bad, not just for Christians, but for
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All right, I'm going to get into this Beth Moore story.
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All right, this is According to Christianity Today.
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Beth Moore says she is no longer a Southern Baptist.
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So I think a lot of people who didn't grow up in the evangelical church, either you grew
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up Catholic or maybe you didn't grow up in the church at all, have some confusion
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And it's kind of like the nuances of a particular language.
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Like if you didn't grow up speaking a language, it can be hard to understand like all of the
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intricacies and the nuances and the slang that comes with the language.
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It's very Christianese to talk about the different kinds of denominations.
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So the Southern Baptist Convention is a particular denomination of Baptists.
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You can be a Baptist without being part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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And there are, you know, different theological tenets that come with being a Baptist.
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That means you believe in believer's baptism rather than, for example, infant baptism.
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We don't believe that that is part of a necessary consecration of a child to the Lord.
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And we could get into all of that, but I won't get into that right now because we don't have
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But you can be a Baptist without being a part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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There are lots of churches, not just in the South, but are part of the Southern Baptist
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And there are, there's a particular confession that Southern Baptist churches must adhere
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to and must affirm to be a part of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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There is, you know, if you're a United Methodist Church, there is a certain creed that you abide
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If you are a Lutheran, that's another denomination.
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And so there are lots of different denominations within the Protestant Church.
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Some of our disagreements are more gospel-centered, like if it is a works-based salvation or if
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it's by grace through faith, like Ephesians 2, 8 through 10 says.
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So we've got some bigger disagreements between these denominations, and we also have some smaller
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disagreements between denominations, for example.
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So there's Presbyterian Church of America, there's Presbyterian Church of the United States
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of America, one is more liberal, one is more conservative.
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The conservative Presbyterians tend to align with Southern Baptists on a lot of theological
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issues, but one issue that we disagree on is infant baptism.
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Of course, like I said, but we don't regard that as a salvation issue.
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Like I've got a lot of friends who are Presbyterians.
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When I went to college, I went to a Presbyterian Church for a part of college, and so that, you
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know, infant baptism, eschatology, these are all very important issues, but we don't
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And then within denominations, you also have different beliefs.
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For example, Calvinism versus Arminianism, and there are a lot of differences in Calvinism
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and Arminianism, but one disagreement that we have is predestination versus free will when
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And so there are some secondary and tertiary, although very important, disagreements between
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But when it comes to denominations, Beth Moore leaving the Southern Baptist Convention is not
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leaving necessarily, necessarily and explicitly a particular belief system, but just a particular
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And this is kind of, we've seen this coming for a while.
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She has certainly gotten louder politically over the past few years.
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She has been a voice for a kind of anti-Trumpism within the evangelical church.
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She has been pushed back on, for example, for preaching to men in certain contexts.
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She has been questioned about her stance on sexuality and her partnering and friendship
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with particular teachers that most Christians would consider false teachers.
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And so there's been a lot of, and not just that, people also have questioned some of her
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teachings and whether or not they're biblically solid.
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Like if she believes in kind of this word of faith, name it and claim it, contemplative prayer
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type thing that a lot of people are troubled by.
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So she is no stranger to controversy, especially over the past few years.
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She is no stranger to criticism, especially over the past few years.
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Of course, her simply having controversy and criticism, it doesn't necessarily make her
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And I'm not saying that she's not either, but I'm just saying the existence and the
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presence of those things don't necessarily validate criticisms and controversy, if that
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But you guys know that I do disagree with Beth Moore on a variety of things.
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I've talked about how she has kind of waded into the waters of wokeness in particular areas
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She's talked about Christian nationalism and multiple times I've tried to press her on what
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she actually means by the things that she is saying.
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I have tried to get her to define her terms in a variety of contexts.
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And unfortunately, I haven't been able to get any kind of response to that.
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And so I am not particularly surprised by her leaving the Southern Baptist Convention.
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There were a few other churches that decided to leave the Southern Baptist Convention after
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the SBC came out opposing critical race theory and saying, look, like, of course, we believe
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Of course, we believe that we should reckon with any kind of part of our history that
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still needs to be confronted or any wrongs that need to be righted.
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But we believe that critical race theory is the wrong way to go about that, which is absolutely
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So, by the way, it's like, duh, I don't even see why that's controversial at all.
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But some churches that people would probably categorize in some ways as more progressive,
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at least when it comes to so-called racial justice, they decided to leave the SBC.
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And Beth Moore also decided to leave the SBC, maybe not for the same reasons, but I would
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She has also tried to bring up instances of emotional and maybe even sexual abuse.
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within the SBC that she doesn't believe that they have properly taken care of.
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It seems like she also has had, you know, she has a lot of good relationships within
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And so most of the people that I saw that she has been friends with kind of applauded
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She also ended her relationship with Lifeway Christian that they have published her books
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and they have sponsored her events for a very long time.
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But it sounds like she's leaving on good, on good terms.
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And so honestly, I don't necessarily have a whole lot of insight into this.
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I don't really have very many thoughts on this.
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She's got lots and lots of followers and readers and people that she has influenced and
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I have been someone who has critiqued her theology in some of her studies and stances in the past.
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At the same time, I totally understand why people like her.
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Speaking of her and speaking of John MacArthur, you'll remember, I think it was about a year
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ago, the controversy of him telling Beth Moore that she needs to go home, that she basically
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needs to stop preaching from the pulpit, preaching to men from the pulpit, and she needs to go home.
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At the time, I did not like how that whole thing was handled.
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I thought that it seemed like they were making fun of her with an attitude that wasn't of edification,
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but was a little malicious and patronizing and belittling.
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At the same time, when it comes to theology and when it comes to who I trust, as far as
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teaching goes, I am going to go with John MacArthur.
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So there's been some tension between conservative evangelicals and Beth Moore for a while, not
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just because of her preaching in front of men and not just because of her theology, but
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also because of her politics and the politics of the SBC is something that she probably just
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And maybe she also, like I said, has a problem with how they've dealt with conflict and how
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they've dealt with racial issues and how they've dealt with accusations of abuse.
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When I saw some reporting saying that, oh, a lot of people are going to follow Beth Moore
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out of the SBC, I highly doubt that a single person, like I highly doubt that if a woman
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goes to her church, she likes her church, she agrees with the teaching, she serves at her
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church, she respects her pastor, and that church happens to be a part of the SBC, that woman is not
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And especially if she is married to someone who also feels at home at a particular church
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and is under solid teaching, like that woman is not going to get up and leave her church.
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Like, please do not leave your church on behalf of Beth Moore.
00:29:04.680
Leave your church if it's not, if your pastor isn't preaching the gospel.
00:29:08.120
Leave your church if he's not preaching sin and salvation and repentance 100%.
00:29:12.660
But please do not leave your church because Beth Moore left the SBC.
00:29:16.020
That would be such a silly and flippant reason.
00:29:18.340
I think so often the people that report on changes within Christianity or any kind of
00:29:23.980
event that happens within Christianity, they still have their secular goggles on.
00:29:29.220
And so they are viewing the church in Christianity through the lens of their secular worldview,
00:29:33.820
not understanding how families and churches and dynamics and choices work within the church.
00:29:41.140
If you feel like you need to leave your church, like I said, use discernment, use prayer,
00:29:50.800
But please do not make that kind of decision based on Beth Moore.
00:29:54.860
Honestly, we don't even know the full reasons why she left the SBC.
00:29:59.160
So it would be so silly of us to make a choice based on something that Beth Moore does.
00:30:04.260
Now, there is a lot of information out there if you're curious about the things that Beth Moore
00:30:11.020
has taught, why people call her a false teacher.
00:30:14.680
There's a lot of information out there about that.
00:30:17.960
And there are legitimate concerns with her teaching that you can read about.
00:30:22.700
I would encourage you not to shut your mind off to that concern and to that accusation if you're
00:30:30.080
someone who, like me, has read a lot of her stuff and felt like you benefited from a lot of her stuff,
00:30:35.640
her talks, her books, maybe when you were in college like I was.
00:30:45.800
And I don't have time to like comb through every person's sermons and books.
00:30:52.740
We can call out particular false teachers and false teachings.
00:30:56.260
Other times it's not as obvious, but I do always call us to discernment and call us to thoughtfulness
00:31:05.760
And so if you're curious about why even people say that or accuse her of that, then there's
00:31:11.660
plenty of information about that online if you want to know that point of view.
00:31:17.340
As for this particular story, I don't have that much to say.
00:31:22.800
See, I kind of think that I understand why it doesn't affect my belief system in any way.
00:31:31.300
And it probably honestly doesn't affect her all that much either.
00:31:35.460
That's all I have to say about those two stories.
00:31:38.440
And now we're going to talk a little bit about the If Gathering.
00:31:42.060
And I have just a message on a particular topic that is weighing on me that you guys know has
00:31:47.300
been weighing on me for a long time since I started this podcast.
00:31:50.880
And I just kind of want to clear some things up about something that seems to be very confusing
00:32:04.420
So as most of you guys know, and as I said at the top of this episode,
00:32:07.960
the If Gathering is a huge conference that has been around for a little while now.
00:32:18.460
She has been a big name in Christian women's circles for a while.
00:32:22.840
And If Gathering has been a very unique conference that has been specially for women.
00:32:32.120
It's supposed to encourage women, to edify women, to walk women through the Bible and help women
00:32:38.760
Not just that, but to apply that faith to their everyday life.
00:32:43.580
And I've gotten messages for the past few years about the If Gathering asking me if I can talk
00:32:56.680
And it's a little bit difficult because I don't have access to all of the speakers that are there
00:33:03.080
to be able to have a private conversation with them.
00:33:06.080
Mostly, I think that there are good things that are being preached there.
00:33:09.620
There are some things that I disagree with that are being preached there.
00:33:12.700
Thankfully, I was able to watch the session online that a lot of you guys were very concerned
00:33:20.500
It was about social justice and so-called racial justice, something that we have talked
00:33:26.400
And we have talked to a lot of other people, other Christians about it on this podcast as
00:33:33.040
And I have gotten so many messages from you guys telling me that you are very concerned
00:33:38.580
by what was said and wondering if it was biblically based.
00:33:42.880
The assertion was made that people, for example, that don't hop on board this particular kind
00:33:51.740
of racial reconciliation that this one author is promoting in her books are not part of the
00:33:58.860
remnant, are not part of the true church, which the gates of hell will not prevail against.
00:34:04.780
And that in itself is troubling when it comes to racism, when it comes to actual injustice,
00:34:11.100
the argument that conservative Christians like me are making is not that racism doesn't
00:34:16.140
exist, that injustice doesn't exist, that we should just ignore it, that we should look
00:34:21.460
But that I don't actually think that a lot of what is coming down the pipeline and a lot
00:34:28.040
of what is being presented to us in the way of racial reconciliation is actually biblical
00:34:33.560
at all, but is actually a lot more secular and progressive than anything that is in accordance
00:34:39.740
And that would include this particular author's work, by the way.
00:34:47.340
I don't feel comfortable like calling certain people out and things like that.
00:34:55.160
I don't want to take away from any truly scriptural benefit that women got from this, not from
00:35:03.640
this particular session, but from the conference in general.
00:35:07.280
And like I said, I am not like some kind of heretic headhunter.
00:35:12.760
But I do want to infuse clarity where there seems to be confusion, especially when it comes
00:35:22.280
So I get lots of questions about particular teachers and Bible studies and women's conferences
00:35:27.340
and whether or not I think that they're solid or not.
00:35:31.060
And I can't answer all of these questions because I don't always have enough information
00:35:40.900
And two, of course, I am very thankfully not the arbiter of who is solid and who is not.
00:35:47.440
But we do have a really good way to discern which teachers are worth following or which
00:35:53.580
teachings are worth following and which ones are not based on God's word.
00:35:58.720
And so I just want to talk about this subject that I think is throwing so many people into
00:36:04.740
a wheel of confusion, leading so many people in the wrong direction that even teachers that
00:36:09.800
we typically deem solid seem to be getting wrong.
00:36:14.660
And we talk about it a lot, and that is this race and justice issue.
00:36:18.940
And I know some of you might be thinking, who am I to talk about this subject?
00:36:29.500
And if you want to dismiss me for those reasons, that's totally fine.
00:36:34.840
But I will point out that doing so, discounting what I'm going to say based on that alone is
00:36:42.780
a logical fallacy, a form of the appeal to authority fallacy that dismisses someone's
00:36:47.160
argument based on their seeming lack of authority rather than contending with the argument that
00:36:53.060
So I encourage you, if you will, to hang with me.
00:36:57.420
This is a subject that we talk a lot about on this podcast.
00:37:00.180
But in light of the recent comments that I listened to at this gathering made by some
00:37:07.920
very influential speakers at a very influential place, I feel the need to kind of clear some
00:37:19.340
According to the Bible, there is no black church and white church.
00:37:23.320
There are different churches in different communities, neighborhoods, cities, countries,
00:37:28.260
but black and white churches are not real or biblical categories.
00:37:33.400
Ultimately, of course, we know that there is one church, the ethnic makeup of which was
00:37:37.800
preordained by God before the foundation of the world.
00:37:41.060
Ephesians 1.4 says, he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be
00:37:50.060
That means that any history of racism in the Christian church is an egregious sin that we
00:37:55.460
should have no problem examining and confronting with specificity and with wisdom.
00:38:01.100
James 2.9, but if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the
00:38:09.800
That also means that the way to right any racist wrongs is not a new form of partiality that
00:38:16.940
categorizes the church as white versus black and preaches a gospel of repentance to the former
00:38:27.880
But first, in all of these conversations, it is so important to define our terms.
00:38:33.060
So what is meant by white church and black church when the church is referred to in this
00:38:40.860
Are progressive white churches included in that?
00:38:47.900
Or are we just talking about conservative white evangelical Christians when we say the
00:38:54.920
Are we really talking more about political and ideological differences in the church than
00:39:02.440
Because neither the churches whose congregants have a high melanin count or a low melanin count
00:39:07.720
share all the views and experiences of other churches with the same kind of racial makeup.
00:39:13.540
So I find those categories not only unbiblical, but also illogical.
00:39:19.580
Therefore, the conversation about reconciling the white church and the black church as it
00:39:24.900
stands does not make a whole lot of sense because we're not even really sure who we're
00:39:31.140
And this is the problem with forgiveness and repentance that is based on collective culpability
00:39:36.320
according to your skin color rather than on direct culpability according to what you have
00:39:44.500
We do not see any biblical precedent for collective racial grievance or repentance based on skin
00:39:51.360
The examples of collective responsibility for sin in the Bible are typically taken from the
00:39:58.580
But even in these stories, Ezra and Daniel were talking about sins that were currently and
00:40:03.420
actively being committed by their entire communities.
00:40:06.220
And any attempts to point to Israel's collective guilt and calls to repentance fail to recognize
00:40:13.640
that Israel was God's cohesive covenant people.
00:40:17.020
White people, brown people, black people as groups today are not that.
00:40:22.120
The fact is, as a white person, you might be racist.
00:40:25.660
You may have sat by as leaders in your church mistreated black people in your congregation or in
00:40:32.960
leadership or preached the curse of Ham, for example, from your pulpit, and you may have
00:40:42.980
You may have no culpability and no complicity to speak of when it comes to the sin of ethnic
00:40:50.060
And it is not difficult for you to feel the direct weight of sin that may or may not be carried
00:40:56.660
You, as a black or brown person, may be racist or not.
00:41:02.900
You could have a sinful pride or arrogance in your racial identity that God does not call
00:41:09.380
You could assume the worst about people who don't look like you.
00:41:11.980
You may be holding people in contempt because you ascribe to them the sin of racism without
00:41:22.700
If you want people of all ethnicities to be brought together, then we've got to stop
00:41:28.620
pitting the ethnicities against each other as if what we look like speaks to whether we
00:41:33.460
have been harmed or whether we have harmed in the church, because that's just not true.
00:41:39.100
And I'm going to say something that I know makes some people mad, but I would urge you to
00:41:52.780
The idea that we are identified by your skin color, white or black, and then are categorized
00:41:58.660
as oppressed or oppressor based on those skin colors is a tenet not of Christianity, but of
00:42:06.360
critical race theory, which is a secular ideology that views every part of our world through black
00:42:18.900
And I know, I know the reaction to that phrase from some.
00:42:23.980
It's, you don't even know what critical theory is.
00:42:32.060
The truth is CRT has a different view of human nature, a different view of oppression, a different
00:42:37.920
view of justice, a different view of history, a different view of reconciliation and repentance
00:42:42.680
of restoration, and it employs the sin of partiality against the so-called oppressors to achieve
00:42:56.000
There is reconciliation, biblical reconciliation.
00:43:01.940
But these things will not be founded nor described by differing messages to white Christians
00:43:07.500
and black Christians based on an ideology that is secular rather than scriptural.
00:43:13.880
The message is, look, white, black, red, brown, you are dead in your sin apart from Christ.
00:43:25.300
You're not going to be judged more or less harshly for your sin than they will be.
00:43:33.740
You're not guilty for the sins of your ancestors, and you're not guilty for the sins of your
00:43:40.720
Your job is, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to respond to Jesus' call and be reconciled
00:43:46.100
to him and live a holy life by loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength,
00:43:50.380
and to love your neighbor as yourself without partiality.
00:43:54.220
That does not mean that we don't acknowledge differences in ethnicity.
00:44:02.360
We should be grateful for the exact melanin count that God gave us because he made us
00:44:07.800
with purpose and intention and love and affection and care, but we are not automatically oppressed
00:44:14.140
or an oppressor because of that melanin count that is not a biblical reality and that is not
00:44:21.620
That doesn't mean that we ignore the different experiences or the different perspectives people
00:44:28.720
That doesn't mean that we look past true oppression when it happens or racism when it happens,
00:44:36.500
But it does mean that when we're talking about righting wrongs, we have to be two things.
00:44:44.820
So when we talk about racism or any injustice today, we need to say what exactly we are talking
00:44:51.340
Not just listing off disparities between groups because disparities alone do not prove discrimination.
00:44:58.280
We have to make sure what we're claiming is in line, not just with what we hear, not just
00:45:03.640
with what someone is claiming, not just with a hashtag, but with what the numbers say, what
00:45:11.000
We have to be specific in who is responsible specifically and who is affected specifically.
00:45:17.960
And when we see real injustice that is happening and we seek to right that wrong, which we
00:45:23.880
should, our definition of justice has to be God's definition of justice, which is, as
00:45:29.520
we have talked about and cited so many times before, one, truthful, two, proportional, three,
00:45:38.780
It is always based on what is actually true, not based on narrative or politics or ideology.
00:45:48.620
Those who are responsible and those who are true victims are the ones involved.
00:45:54.800
It does not favor the richer, the poor, the small or the great, the black or the white.
00:45:59.860
That last one, impartial, we see reiterated over and over again throughout scripture, how
00:46:06.000
much God hates partiality, which is exactly why Christians should hate racism and why we should
00:46:11.600
also hate any new forms of partiality that are proposed in the name of fighting racism or
00:46:19.080
So if there is tension between Christians of different ethnicities or different socioeconomic
00:46:24.420
statuses, which, by the way, we don't talk about very much, but the book of James, for
00:46:30.900
We don't need to borrow from secular ideologies to do it.
00:46:34.300
If there is injustice, we don't need wisdom from the world to confront it.
00:46:39.560
The God of justice, God who sent his son to die on the cross to reconcile us to himself
00:46:45.540
and then Christians of all types to each other, as Ephesians 2.14 lays out for us, that God
00:46:51.180
and his word are the only things that are going to guide us.
00:46:54.000
So if you are racist against a black person or a white person, if you are partial toward
00:46:59.940
one group or another, even if it's in the name of social justice and righting oppression,
00:47:07.100
That means we are not living out the gospel the way that we are supposed to among our neighbors.
00:47:16.420
Do not let anyone make you think that loving God and loving your neighbor is not enough.
00:47:23.400
Yes, that absolutely necessitates action, but do not be made to think that those two things
00:47:28.520
are not sufficient in living the godly, impactful life to which God has called you.
00:47:34.500
And I understand the reaction to me saying all of this is that it might just be from some
00:47:39.320
people that you're just uncomfortable with the truth or you just need to listen and learn.
00:47:46.020
It frees you from any kind of obligation to actually respond to what I've said.
00:47:50.980
But think, just as you think it's unfair to be categorized as, for example, a Marxist
00:47:57.360
just for bringing up the possibility of racism, it is just as foolish for you to accuse someone
00:48:03.300
of ignorance or complicity because they disagree with you.
00:48:08.540
We've talked a lot about justice versus social justice.
00:48:13.240
We've talked a lot about systemic racism and all the issues that have been bubbling up over
00:48:21.300
And I'm not saying at all that I am the leading authority on this.
00:48:28.880
I'm not saying that I know everything or that nothing that I say is up for debate.
00:48:34.640
But gosh, guys, we've got to be better about offering clarity and confusion rather than
00:48:42.020
I saw a lot of vagueness, a lot of biblical language used without any kind of specificity
00:48:56.240
Like, as Christians, we need to be adding clarity to the confusion.
00:49:00.280
We need to be a respite from the chaos that the world is waging.
00:49:04.340
We don't need to be adding to it with our own versions of Christianese.
00:49:11.260
I hope that was at least sufficient for the concerns that you guys had on that.
00:49:18.840
Tomorrow, super excited, talking to Senator Rand Paul.
00:49:29.860
We'll be talking about a couple more news and political items that we have been seeing