Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 385 ｜ Tim Keller's Warning about Death & Christian Nationalism

00:00:00.000 hey guys welcome to relatable happy monday hope everyone had a wonderful weekend today we're not

00:00:16.400 going to talk about the news we're not going to talk about the grammys we're not going to talk

00:00:19.840 about politics we're actually going to talk about two articles by tim keller one of them about death

00:00:26.000 one of them about christian nationalism and then i'll give you some of my thoughts on that and that

00:00:32.260 will lead us into a conversation not a conversation but a story actually coming out of the christian

00:00:39.420 post about california ethnic studies plan that teaches kids to chant to an aztec god and encourages

00:00:45.720 human sacrifice and how that ties into what we're going to talk about today and where i think our

00:00:53.000 concerns should actually lie as far as which kind of ideologies are infiltrating christianity and

00:00:59.700 opposing christianity um there's a lot that i want to talk about today and there's a lot that i want

00:01:05.300 to talk about this week the grammys did happen last night i know most of you are like me you probably

00:01:10.440 didn't watch you don't care all that much but it is interesting to look at these cultural moments

00:01:15.300 and to study what we as a society care about what we deem okay what we deem worth celebrating and then

00:01:22.140 what we deem worth castigating so a lot of people have pointed out for example that cardi b's wop was

00:01:29.580 the song of the year but we are too um we are too now culturally sensitive to read something like an

00:01:36.680 80 year old dr seuss book which has politically incorrect and potentially offensive depictions of

00:01:42.780 people that is worth cancellation but self-objectification in the name of female empowerment 1.00

00:01:48.180 is something that we are going to embrace we're going to be pretended to be offended by one

00:01:54.020 but empowered by the other and i think the question that we have to ask ourselves is by what standard

00:01:59.180 and we are going to talk about that on wednesday it's going to actually be an episode about women 1.00

00:02:05.420 because i don't know if you guys knew this but this is international women's month or is it

00:02:10.820 international women's history month i don't know but it's been around for a long time like this is not

00:02:16.100 just a new creation that has come about in the past few years women's history month or women's

00:02:21.620 month whatever it is um has been around for a long time like i remember this being something in college

00:02:27.560 when i was in a sorority that we celebrated that we talked about um in all of that and i want to talk

00:02:33.080 about what is a woman from a biblical perspective um should we celebrate women's history or women's

00:02:41.260 empowerment month and how does christianity see women in a way that is different than how the world

00:02:47.540 sees women how does christ celebrate elevate and um approach women in a way that is different than

00:02:55.480 how the world does how does christianity in our version of empowerment how does it compare and contrast

00:03:01.880 to feminism um and so we're going to talk about that on wednesday it's going to be women wednesday

00:03:08.680 we'll look at it from a biblical perspective i'll look at it of course from a political perspective

00:03:13.500 as well and i'm super excited about that but i need a couple days to keep preparing it and so

00:03:18.040 we'll talk about that we'll also talk about a speech that was made by tamika mallory at the grammys

00:03:23.660 um asking joe biden to not be an ally but be an accomplice to i guess black lives matter and their

00:03:31.100 social justice movement or racial justice movement i should say um that's a strange choice of words

00:03:37.760 considering an accomplice is typically someone that comes along and helps you with a crime and

00:03:44.140 an ally is typically seen in a positive light so we're gonna we're gonna dissect that speech there's

00:03:49.880 a lot like i said that i want to talk about this week both within the church and the culture and

00:03:54.800 politics and we're going to get to all of it if you've got any suggestions or anything specifically

00:03:58.980 you would like me to talk about please let me know but i want a slow start to the week this week

00:04:04.000 um i want us to kind of focus on the things that i think that we need to be focused on just kind of

00:04:10.460 like how we ended thursday i want to go into the week um getting us in the right perspective if i

00:04:16.200 can so let's first talk about what i thought was an excellent article by tim keller um in the atlantic

00:04:23.540 now i know a lot of you um particularly on youtube it seems you don't follow tim keller you don't like

00:04:30.280 tim keller you don't agree with tim keller i know there are a lot of you who are listening who do

00:04:34.580 like tim keller and maybe you're not aware that there has been some controversy within conservative

00:04:39.340 evangelicalism surrounding him because he is more i would say progressive on the social justice

00:04:47.260 spectrum he wrote a book called generous justice a few years ago where he made the argument that not

00:04:54.120 giving to the poor is not just disobedience to god because we are called to care for the least of

00:04:59.600 these but is actually robbing uh the poor so not giving your money to the poor is actually robbing

00:05:06.280 the poor and of course he does use the bible to support this but there have been a lot of people

00:05:10.960 who have analyzed like the origin of that thinking and if he is suggesting that the government should

00:05:17.060 be the vehicle to confiscate money or property from the so-called privileged group give it to the

00:05:23.020 other group in the name of giving poor people what they're due there has been a lot of pushback to

00:05:29.700 that um and asking whether or not the origins of that kind of line of thinking are truly biblical or

00:05:35.980 are they maybe coming from the frankfurt school instead and he has made a few comments over the years

00:05:42.100 that seem to um that uh seem to condone and i would say explicitly condone something like collective

00:05:49.760 grievance or collective repentance collective reparations based on race so not based on direct

00:05:57.800 culpability not based on a direct crime or something that you directly did or did not say

00:06:04.520 but based on the color of your skin and the sins that your ancestors or the people that look like you 0.99

00:06:10.200 may or may not have committed obviously we've talked about many times on this podcast why i don't think

00:06:15.780 that is a correct biblical definition of justice at all and so that is a very brief and a very general

00:06:23.380 summary of why some people have had a hard time with tim keller there are many other things as well

00:06:29.140 some of his tweets seem to be missing a lot of context and a lot of um a biblical substance to them

00:06:35.660 but um also he is a highly respected theologian his work has helped so many millions of people

00:06:46.080 including myself understand god better understand the bible better i've probably read more books by tim

00:06:53.560 keller than i have any other book uh that is by one one singular author so i have read uh probably since high

00:07:05.240 school a dozen i don't know a dozen of his books i think second is maybe thomas soul obviously i love to read

00:07:13.920 but when i'm looking for books i often look for books that are by an author that i haven't read before

00:07:19.660 but with tim keller i have just consumed as many books of his as i possibly can because they truly have been

00:07:28.160 so helpful to me when i was in high school we read reason for god together as a class when i was a

00:07:34.300 senior and that really helped change and hone my perspective of what it meant to understand who god

00:07:40.900 is it helped my apologetics it helped my intellectual reasoning of christianity how to answer hard questions

00:07:48.280 like why do bad things happen how can this good all-powerful god um sit back seemingly while all of this

00:07:56.340 evil occurs he helped me answer those questions he helped me wrestle with my faith not just in high

00:08:02.220 school but throughout college when i would doubt when i would struggle i would say god used tim keller's

00:08:07.880 works um more than any other books besides the bible and um i'm so i'm very thankful so i'm someone who

00:08:17.920 really appreciates the good that he does bring to the table and i appreciate the impact that he has had

00:08:24.500 um while also obviously disagreeing with him on things like social justice versus biblical justice

00:08:32.320 um and so if you are in the same camp as me just understand that i think that we can pull really

00:08:37.580 good things from what tim keller says and we can still disagree with him on other things um he has

00:08:43.280 been so helpful to me in building my faith and he continues to he continues to and an article like

00:08:50.040 this and then i'll get to another article where i feel like he is completely opposed to the things

00:08:54.580 that i believe so the article in the atlantic is called growing my faith in the face of death so keller

00:09:01.360 was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at the beginning of 2020 he says in this article that he you know was

00:09:07.800 frantically looking up statistics about how long he could possibly live and he understands that this is a

00:09:14.380 fatal condition that it is not likely that he's going to recover and so he is writing now on reflections of

00:09:21.480 death and he talks about that throughout his long ministry that he has um that he has written about

00:09:27.600 death that he has preached on death that he has encouraged other people in the face of death but that

00:09:32.660 it's very different to talk about death as a theory talk about death um in the abstract versus actually

00:09:39.200 experiencing it for ourselves and he talks about something that i think that we can all relate to that

00:09:43.800 we all understand that death is inevitable death and taxes are the two necessary evils in life as the

00:09:51.220 saying goes and yet it's really hard for us to grapple with it it's hard for us especially to grapple

00:09:57.020 with our own mortality and just how temporal we are um we're created kind of with this sense of

00:10:04.500 invincibility even if we have seen those around us get sick and grow frail and die it's hard for us to

00:10:11.780 believe that the same thing could possibly happen to us and i think part of that is because god wrote

00:10:17.100 eternity on the human heart as the bible tells us and so we do have a desire and a knowledge that we

00:10:24.200 are going to live forever of course um not how we are now but we understand that we have souls that

00:10:31.520 will live eternally and of course we you know we could get into the resurrection of the bodies and all of

00:10:36.580 that but we won't right now and so i think this longing for eternity this feeling of invincibility

00:10:42.940 that all of us have uh is actually an indication of something that god put inside of our hearts

00:10:49.780 it's actually a symbol um or a signifier of us being made in the image of the eternal god and that's

00:10:57.680 something that keller talks about here that that is part of what makes death so hard to grapple with

00:11:03.900 especially for ourselves even when we're facing it and he talks about how he even started to grow

00:11:09.680 kind of better and scared and resentful because he had planned the rest of his life he had no reason

00:11:15.760 to think that he wasn't going to live for a long time and i think that's true of all of us no matter

00:11:21.140 uh what age we're in it's something that i've thought about that is so interesting about death is that the

00:11:27.180 theory of revolution um says that the reason we evolve is you know based on need uh evolutionists

00:11:35.900 would even say that the reason we have religion the reason we have faith is because in the past

00:11:42.400 it helped our ancestors in some way or another communities tribes needed this and so that's why

00:11:49.180 they kind of developed this idea of god or like the god of the gaps theory the idea that a long time

00:11:55.560 ago people couldn't understand what the sun was they couldn't understand how the universe worked and so

00:12:00.200 they used this idea of a god or gods to try to explain away these gaps in understanding that they

00:12:07.580 have but of course evolutionists say as knowledge has progressed as science has progressed we have a

00:12:13.540 a less and and less need for god that's um the theory that materialists that secular humanists would put

00:12:21.780 forth as to why people forever have sought after god why people have always asked these existential

00:12:28.240 questions of why am i here who made me is there something beyond is there something bigger than me

00:12:34.040 what happens uh when i die but you would think after all of this time after all of this supposed

00:12:40.660 evolution that we would be used to the thing that every single person that lived before us had

00:12:50.140 experienced either either themselves well they did experience it themselves but they also experienced

00:12:55.380 it probably in seeing other people and that is death why aren't we used to death yet like why isn't it

00:13:01.340 something that we have accepted like if our minds are evolving if human understanding is evolving if our

00:13:08.140 need for um grasping for eternity or something bigger than us or something transcendent is getting smaller

00:13:14.800 and smaller because human understanding is getting bigger than bigger why haven't we understood death yet

00:13:20.120 i mean that is one of the things that has stuck with us since the beginning of time why when

00:13:25.860 someone dies or when we're faced with death why does it feel like it's not supposed to be this way

00:13:31.600 why is it so shocking to us why is it so difficult for us to face our own finiteness when all of history

00:13:38.480 tells us that every single human being is finite why are we deluded with this sense of invincibility or this

00:13:44.840 sense of eternity that we have in our hearts when we know that everything is going to end everyone

00:13:50.860 around us is going to end why is this so hard for us to grapple with and i would say it's because we're

00:13:57.560 not products of evolution god isn't getting smaller or our need need for god is not getting smaller as

00:14:04.280 human understanding gets bigger as science progresses even more the reason why we feel that it should not be

00:14:11.540 this way the reason why we still feel shocked by death why we still mourn death so much why it hits us

00:14:19.100 like a ton of bricks when it happens to some to someone in our lives um or when we are faced with it

00:14:25.940 ourselves is because it's not supposed to be this way it's not like we still have uh we still have that

00:14:35.580 feeling that maybe it could be different like maybe it could be different one day like maybe

00:14:41.060 one day we won't have to endure sorrow like maybe one day this thing that feels like robbing this thing

00:14:47.500 that feels like injustice really could go away and that is what we get in christ that is something that

00:14:55.460 god put into the human heart it's not a product of evolution it doesn't really make any sense for it to

00:15:01.260 be but it is a product of god creating us and placing in us a longing for eternity a longing for

00:15:10.000 restoration a longing for redemption a longing for heaven a longing for glory a longing for a time where

00:15:16.780 we don't have to fear loss we don't have to fear pain we don't have to fear sorrow and sadness and

00:15:23.580 that is what tim keller talks about that he's no longer thinking about those things in the sense of

00:15:30.380 trying to write a book or encourage a congregant or prepare a sermon but he is realizing that is

00:15:36.920 what he calls a personal reality um and he talks about he talks about why it's so hard for us in

00:15:43.860 particular in the west and the luxurious united states to deal with this and he makes an interesting

00:15:48.980 point he says why is it that people in prosperous modern society seem to struggle so much with the

00:15:54.140 existence of evil suffering and death in his book a secular age the philosopher charles taylor

00:15:59.780 wrote that while humans have always struggled with the ways and justice of god until quite recently

00:16:04.240 no one had concluded that suffering made the existence of god implausible for millennia people

00:16:09.800 held a strong belief in their own inadequacy or sinfulness and did not hold the modern assumption

00:16:14.920 that we all deserve a comfortable life moreover taylor has argued we have become so confident

00:16:20.380 in our powers of logic that if we cannot imagine any good reason that suffering exists

00:16:26.320 we assume there can't be one and i think that's absolutely true that it's not just that all human

00:16:33.900 beings like i said struggle with this concept of death um because i think that everyone does and

00:16:39.420 everyone um is troubled by it everyone's disturbed by it everyone is saddened by it but for us in the

00:16:47.520 west the existence of death isn't just something that's difficult for us and something that we try to

00:16:52.340 wrestle with god about but something that actually makes us doubt god's existence and not just death

00:16:58.660 but also pain also trials also suffering despite what we see in the bible that suffering comes part

00:17:05.160 and parcel with the human life it especially is part of the christian life and yet when it happens

00:17:10.880 we find ourselves saying why why me well how could a good god let this happen a good god would never let

00:17:18.260 this happen a good god would never let coronavirus happen uh a good god would never let these government

00:17:23.600 shutdowns happen a good god would never let government corruption happen a good god would never let all of

00:17:31.120 the famine and the sorrow and the injustice that we see in the world happen he would never let that happen

00:17:37.080 and it's because we have come i think to idolize comfort and happiness so much it reminds me so much of

00:17:44.000 of brave new world we have come to expect and think that we are entitled to stability and ease and smooth

00:17:51.520 sailing that when there comes a a storm that knocks us off our path or when there comes a bump in the road

00:18:00.200 that we think that we have been robbed of something that we deserve which is comfort which is ease which is

00:18:06.380 for whatever reason living forever and so he talks about how especially here in the united states

00:18:13.140 especially here in the west when we have so much when we do have long life expectancies when we have

00:18:18.740 so many resources at our disposal that understanding that suffering is a part of life and doesn't

00:18:24.660 disprove god just because we don't understand it is even more important and even more difficult for us

00:18:30.920 than it is probably for other people in other parts of the world who are so used to suffering i mean christians

00:18:37.340 in the middle east christians in china are so used to suffering i think they would laugh at the idea

00:18:41.980 that suffering somehow negates the existence of god but we in america have a very hard time with this

00:18:49.080 he says um he talks about how he had to realize this himself he had to grapple with this himself

00:18:56.540 and he asked himself had his understanding of death been shaped by his culture he said had i been

00:19:02.880 slipping unconsciously into the supposition that god lived for me rather than i for him that life should

00:19:09.140 go well for me that i knew better than god does how things should go the answer was yes to some degree

00:19:15.340 i found that to embrace god's greatness to say that i will be done was painful at first and then perhaps

00:19:20.660 counterintuitively profoundly liberating to assume that god is as small and as finite as we are

00:19:27.640 may feel freeing but it offers no remedy for anger he gives this metaphor and reason for god that

00:19:35.960 has always stuck with me when human beings are asking um how could a good god allow death and

00:19:43.200 suffering happen to people how could he allow all of these bad things to allow um or how could he allow

00:19:50.580 all of these bad things to happen um he he gives a metaphor of for example um if a doctor or if a parent

00:20:00.620 takes a child to a doctor to get their vaccines i'm not having a vaccine conversation right now so

00:20:07.300 just cool your jets but this is a metaphor um takes a child uh to the doctor for his shots that child who

00:20:16.020 may be four years old has no idea why he is getting shots and it wouldn't help if the doctor explained or

00:20:22.060 if the mother explained scientifically why these shots are necessary like what the disease is how the shot 0.89

00:20:28.720 is going to work really the most that the mom can say to her child is look this is going to hurt

00:20:35.020 but it's going to be okay i'm going to be here with you i'm not going to leave you i'm going to comfort

00:20:41.100 you and it's going to be fine but this is something that is necessary this is something that is for

00:20:47.580 your good this is something that is going to benefit you in in the long run and even that the child is not

00:20:55.040 going to be able to fully understand the only thing that the child understands in the moment

00:20:59.160 is that it's going to hurt and that he doesn't want this to happen he might even be mad at his mom he

00:21:04.180 might be mad at the doctor he doesn't understand immunity he doesn't understand the disease he

00:21:08.680 doesn't understand the threat he can't see you know 10 years down the line when maybe his immune

00:21:16.580 system is confronted with this disease but he has already built an immune response to it he's not even

00:21:21.820 going to understand that that's happening when it happens um and yet and yet the parent doesn't try

00:21:29.960 to explain all of that to the child because she understands that he doesn't have the mental

00:21:36.200 capacity to be able to get it yet and so if that is the gap in understanding between two finite beings

00:21:42.640 between the mom and the child and trying to explain something like the efficacy or the importance

00:21:47.920 of a vaccine think about the gap in understanding between an infinite being god and human beings who

00:21:55.180 are finite if he tried to explain to us why all the pain and all the suffering and all the trials that

00:22:01.860 we're going through right now are worth it so when we ask god why is this happening there would be

00:22:09.280 nothing that he could say that we would understand that would make it better all he can really say in

00:22:15.600 that moment is that look it is going to be worth it you have to trust me i am going to hold you

00:22:21.440 through this i am going to comfort you through this and you have to rely on my faithfulness on my

00:22:27.640 sovereignty not what you see right in front of you that's really all god can tell us is remind us of

00:22:34.020 who he is that he is in control and that everything that we're going through right now is temporary and

00:22:39.300 that it will be worth it suffering death pain anguish despair is not a reason to disbelieve in

00:22:47.840 god just because we want to believe that god should come down to our level and explain things in a way

00:22:53.560 that we can't understand we can't that's one thing that we have to realize that we are so small that we

00:22:58.760 are so finite that we are so frail and fallible that there's nothing that god could explain to us that

00:23:04.880 would make sense of the sorrow and the sadness and the suffering that we are going through now and

00:23:10.140 that really is where the faith comes in and that's exactly why tim keller um wrote this article

00:23:17.400 uh he says kathy and i his wife have discovered that the less we attempt to make this world into

00:23:23.500 heaven the more we are able to enjoy it no longer we burdening it with demands impossible for it to

00:23:30.720 fulfill we have found that the simplest things from sun on the water and flowers in the vase

00:23:34.420 to our own embraces sex and conversation bring more joy than ever this has taken us by surprise i can

00:23:41.300 sincerely say without any sentimentality or exaggeration that i've never been happier in my

00:23:46.140 life and that i've never had more days filled with comfort so he talks about reconciling with the

00:23:53.000 reality of the limited time that he has with his limitations um that that is what is allowing him

00:24:02.400 to enjoy the present moment without demanding from it things that it just can't possibly

00:24:09.280 give and i think that the sooner all of us learn that lesson i mean we might have 70 years left here

00:24:14.520 on earth and i i pray to god that we do that we have lives that are full that glorify him that are

00:24:20.460 obedient to him that we get to see our grandkids and our great grandkids and that uh we hopefully

00:24:27.600 write this stupid path that america um seems to be on right now but i think that the sooner that we 0.77

00:24:35.880 realize that the world was not meant for our comfort that life was not meant for ease that we were not

00:24:43.000 created just to coast that we were not created for convenience that we were not created just to sit

00:24:49.440 by and to allow things to be easy and to go as planned that we were made for hard things like we were

00:24:56.400 made for difficulty we were made for sorrow like we were in a sense that we were made to be able to deal

00:25:02.940 with it we were made to go through really hard things and that one day we won't go through hard things

00:25:08.320 anymore that the hope and the comfort and the convenience that we are trying and failing to find in this life in this

00:25:15.500 world are guaranteed for us in christ like that is the exchange that he made when he died on the cross

00:25:23.020 and rose again and said by grace through faith you can find life in me now without christ we are destined

00:25:30.320 for more suffering for more wrath for more discomfort and more sorrow than we could even even imagine but

00:25:36.500 because god loves us so much he made a way for us to not just be forgiven from our sins here not just

00:25:43.540 have joy here in the midst of trials and sorrow but also to get rid of sorrow forever more and the

00:25:49.980 reason that i wanted to talk about this is because i know a lot of you are going through a lot of hard

00:25:54.220 things right now like you message me and you tell me the difficult things that you're going through

00:25:58.520 whether you lost a job whether your child was suicidal this past year whether you are struggling

00:26:04.580 because a loved one died of covid or whether you're going through some other kind of personal

00:26:10.820 situation a lot of you are going through really hard things you were diagnosed with something your

00:26:15.720 husband was diagnosed with something your parents were diagnosed with something you were blindsided this

00:26:20.320 past year and you have found yourself asking these questions of why god and does god really love me does

00:26:26.980 god really care about me and you have looked to the lives of other people and have felt like they have

00:26:34.080 the life that you deserve that things are going easier for them that they never have to struggle that

00:26:38.700 they're not going through the same trials and you wonder um you wonder if your faith is in something

00:26:46.280 that is real um and i think that this article did such a good job of reminding us of why our

00:26:56.200 understanding our small understanding of what life should be is a poor lens through which to view god

00:27:02.760 and his sovereignty and his faithfulness and once we let go of the expectation of this life being perfect

00:27:10.340 the expectation of the people around us and of ourselves uh being invincible then we can enjoy

00:27:17.140 um every moment that god graciously gives us because remember he suspends all of time like everything

00:27:25.400 that is moving everything that is breathing everything that is ticking everything that is advancing forward

00:27:32.200 is advancing forward by the powerful omnipotent hand of god there is nothing that happens outside of his

00:27:39.980 will and i understand that some of you you don't like that because it sounds like um uh it it makes you

00:27:49.660 uncomfortable to think that a sovereign god is also somehow purposing bad things to happen but i will

00:27:56.940 remind you there's a difference between sovereign will and moral will nothing happens outside of god's

00:28:01.780 sovereign will as matthew 10 says not even a sparrow falls from the sky apart from the will

00:28:06.880 of our father and yet there are things that happen every second that go against his moral will meaning

00:28:13.720 that people sin and that's not something that he wants them to do and yet everything is under his

00:28:18.940 sovereign will as rc sproul says there is not even a maverick molecule in all of creation there is

00:28:25.980 nothing that is outside of god's control and out of god's hand and if we can live in confidence of

00:28:33.760 that that changes how we view politics like that changes how we view uh justice that changes how we

00:28:41.000 view culture that changes how we view our own lives that changes uh how we view every moment every day

00:28:46.800 that we wake up realizing that it is a gift that god the sovereign god has given us to live according to

00:28:53.100 his glory and we are free to be happy in this moment knowing that there is nothing that we deserve out of

00:28:59.000 this second there's nothing that we deserve out of this day there's nothing that we are entitled to

00:29:04.800 and there's nothing good that we should expect the only good that we receive is from god as a gracious

00:29:14.000 gift and i think once we realize that it frees us it liberates us to be happy to be fulfilled to be

00:29:20.000 satisfied uh in the moment that we are given and that is what i got out of that atlantic article and

00:29:26.040 it was very encouraging to me it's morose it's sad obviously i'm very sad for tim keller i'm sad

00:29:32.160 for his wife even jesus wept over a lazarus's death and so it's normal for us to be sad it's okay for us to

00:29:40.640 be sad about it but also we get to enjoy fully every moment that god has given us here on earth without

00:29:46.200 doubting for a second his goodness and his sovereignty that's the grace he's given to us

00:29:50.880 by the wisdom of the holy spirit and the accounts in his word um all right so i wanted to start the

00:29:57.200 week with that kind of encouragement and actually let me read you let me read you this um passage from

00:30:03.660 the bible and then i'll get into some of my disagreements um with with tim keller okay let me read

00:30:09.840 this passage first corinthians 15 50 through 56 i tell you this brothers flesh and blood cannot inherit

00:30:15.960 the kingdom of god nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable behold i tell you a mystery we

00:30:20.940 shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last

00:30:25.720 trumpet for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable and we shall be changed

00:30:31.060 for this perishable body must put on the imperishable and this mortal body must put on immortality

00:30:35.980 when the perishable puts on the imperishable and the mortal puts on immortality then shall come to

00:30:41.880 pass the saying that is written death is swallowed up in victory oh death where is your victory oh death

00:30:47.640 where is your sting the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law but thanks be to god who

00:30:53.160 gives us the victory through our lord jesus christ uh last monday we talked about insta evangelists

00:31:00.120 people like glennon doyle people like brene brown how they're offering a lot of emotional

00:31:05.400 support gin hat maker they make us feel good about ourselves um and yet they're not answering

00:31:11.260 these questions one of the questions that they're not answering is um what is true justice another one

00:31:17.300 is why am i here what's my purpose is there anything beyond my own happiness is there anything bigger than

00:31:23.260 myself that i should care about another question that they don't answer is what happens when we die

00:31:29.480 what's going to happen with death like who is going to defeat evil is this always going to be this hard

00:31:36.340 are we always going to be enduring this kind of sadness jesus christ alone answers that question

00:31:42.120 he is the only one who can answer who we are why we're here what our purpose is how long

00:31:48.340 we last and he has an answer for what's going to happen to death what's going to happen to evil what's

00:31:53.640 going to happen to wickedness and corruption and sorrow um he's going to defeat all of it and so

00:31:58.340 that's the hope and that's the joy um that we have and so even in a kind of sad article like this

00:32:03.740 like there's so much joy in reminding us of where our hope comes from all right let's transition to

00:32:10.280 the second half of this episode where i talk about um some other kind of uh cultural and political

00:32:16.620 differences that i have but i'll try to end it uh still positively

00:32:20.600 all right so you guys know i'm so thankful for all the good that tim keller has um has offered us

00:32:33.080 and even just that profound perspective that he gave us in his article in the atlantic now i mentioned

00:32:38.620 to you at the top of it that i also disagree with him about politics and maybe it's because he's

00:32:43.040 metropolitan he led a church in new york for a long time and so he just kind of has those leftist

00:32:48.500 social justice proclivities when it comes to some things now he does say that he denounces marxism

00:32:53.800 i'm not sure i know that he is a registered democrat but i'm not sure that he would consider himself a

00:32:58.860 leftist i want to be as charitable and as honest as possible like i don't want to cast him as some

00:33:03.540 communist when i don't think that's what he is but i do think that probably his progressivism when it

00:33:09.360 comes to especially economic issues colors how he how he sees politics and cover and colors how he sees

00:33:17.860 things like justice and what is actually owed and charity and taxes and all of that stuff i honestly

00:33:25.040 am not totally sure where he stands on abortion as far as legislation goes um but he has been one of

00:33:32.140 these voices that has said you know one of the biggest problems that we're seeing in christianity

00:33:35.800 right now is christian nationalism um and i've talked about this beth moore said the same thing there

00:33:42.940 other evangelical leaders that i think a lot of people would consider conservative evangelical

00:33:47.820 leaders who um who believe that christian nationalism is the biggest threat to the church

00:33:54.340 that we have and i'll remind you of what i think about that after i read some quotes from this article

00:33:59.520 in the christian post christian nationalism works on fear and resentment um niche said there is no truth

00:34:05.760 you can you cannot appeal to truth what you appeal to is fear and resentment and that's how you get

00:34:12.640 power and that's how you win which is an interesting interesting quote from him considering that he

00:34:20.520 obviously doesn't agree with nietzsche there um keller said that while he agrees with the christian

00:34:24.940 right on policies like abortion and same-sex marriage but asserted that the way many christians

00:34:29.720 handled hot button issues in the 80s and 90s simply fueled fear resentment and anger in their

00:34:33.580 communities you know how they raised money for 20 years they sent out letters talking about how

00:34:37.780 you've got to send us money because the gay people are going to try to come and take your 1.00

00:34:42.400 children away because they're evil and because the democrats and left are going to destroy your

00:34:46.600 religious liberty they just said awful things and vilified people it's one of the reasons why so 1.00

00:34:50.760 many gay activists now just don't want to forgive evangelicals because when they had a little power

00:34:55.160 in the 80s and 90s that's how they raised their money um he goes on to say about christian nationalism

00:35:02.620 um evangelicals nurtured christian nationalism christian nationalists use uh use that fear and resentment

00:35:10.460 we brought it on ourselves and he said in churches across the u.s many members are falling into one of

00:35:18.060 two camps keller said on one hand many young evangelicals particularly those living in cities

00:35:22.400 almost have a tendency to be overwoke and take their cues from the secular world talking about

00:35:26.720 christian nationalists in nasty ways it is dangerous but it's also one of the ways that you fuel the 1.00

00:35:31.720 extremism is by treating the extremists as sort of subhuman and so uh he goes on to say that some

00:35:39.380 pastors are saying that uh some people are leaving their churches because they don't talk about

00:35:44.960 justice and about how bad trump is or how bad christian national is and nationalism is and because these

00:35:51.520 pastors are not preaching about it so here's what i think about all of that um i think that there are

00:35:58.020 very few actual christian nationalists in the evangelical church unfortunately uh christian

00:36:05.840 nationalism has been used as a boogeyman in the same way that uh marxist or marxism kind of kind of has

00:36:14.180 been used as a boogeyman but here's what i'll say and i understand that because i'm on the conservative

00:36:18.360 side of this that you might see me as biased in this way but marxism is actually much more of a

00:36:27.020 legitimate threat to the evangelical church than christian nationalism is and i think we have to define

00:36:32.160 our terms here so christian nationalism is so rarely defined by the people who use it when

00:36:37.020 beth moore for example said that our biggest threat is christian nationalism in the church and it has to

00:36:41.740 do with trumpism i asked her on twitter hey can you define like what do you mean by this like what is

00:36:47.580 christian nationalism and she didn't respond to me she's not obligated to respond to me but also

00:36:51.760 i think clarity and defining our terms is really important and so when you're saying christian

00:36:57.420 nationalist are you just saying all conservative christians are you just saying anyone who is

00:37:01.320 patriotic anyone who loves our country anyone who believes in religious liberty anyone who

00:37:06.160 believes that for example that god is the great moral lawgiver and therefore what he says is good

00:37:11.260 and right and true should be uh directive for how we should formulate our laws is that christian

00:37:18.740 nationalism so has every person who has believed in god is the great moral lawgiver has have they all

00:37:26.420 been christian nationalists and what do you mean by nationalist by the way when some people say

00:37:32.180 nationalist they immediately say well that means nazi that means some form of bigotry it's wrong to

00:37:39.980 care about your country more than other people well let me break that down for a second um nationalist

00:37:48.140 obviously can be very ugly it obviously has had very ugly manifestations throughout history it can be

00:37:54.080 associated with fascism but i mean obviously so can socialism obviously communism has also

00:38:01.640 wrought terrible evils and has been responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people throughout

00:38:07.200 history and it's still in vogue in america today nationalism though isn't always associated with

00:38:14.200 some form of collectivism or some form of totalitarianism or some form of evil it depends on how you define

00:38:20.880 nationalism which is why i think it's so important to do if nationalism is simply saying we prioritize

00:38:26.660 the needs of our citizens and we prioritize the needs of our country before we prioritize the needs of

00:38:32.020 other countries and that means that we're going to have secure borders that means that we are going

00:38:36.120 to promote policies that are best for our country and our people and our workers not best for china not 1.00

00:38:43.340 best for countries in the middle east not best for sweden not best for australia but whatever is best for the

00:38:49.160 united states that's what we are going to promote and that's what we are going to try to enact that

00:38:55.000 could be a form of nationalism you could say that nationalism is saying that we have the best country

00:39:00.640 in the world or that we're patriotic or whatever none of these things necessarily equate to any form

00:39:06.660 of fascism or any form of bigotry when people say that it's wrong to think that america is the greatest

00:39:12.180 country in the world or it's wrong to say we're going to put the needs of americans above the needs of

00:39:16.900 other people there are christians that i've seen say that that is wrong that that's a form of bigotry

00:39:21.200 that that's a form of of white privilege that's a form of white supremacy would you say that about

00:39:27.000 any other country like if the leader of zimbabwe and unfortunately the leader of zimbabwe doesn't say

00:39:32.280 this because he's corrupt but if the leader of zimbabwe said hey i'm gonna put the i'm gonna put the

00:39:38.780 needs of my people above the needs of the american people i'm gonna put the needs and the desires

00:39:44.960 of my people above the needs of the people of norway or above the needs of the people of afghanistan

00:39:51.580 would you really fault him for that would you would you fault the leader of kenya or the leader of

00:39:58.620 india for saying you know what we're gonna look after our people first we're gonna prioritize the needs

00:40:04.100 of our citizens first would you say that that was wrong would you honestly demand the leader

00:40:08.960 of zimbabwe say you know what no you have to care just as much about the needs of americans or

00:40:15.860 canadians as you do the needs of zimbabweans of course you wouldn't that would be ridiculous

00:40:19.980 and so if that's true about countries in africa or countries in any other kind of the world that

00:40:25.460 you allow them to prioritize their own citizens why is that off the table for americans like why is it

00:40:31.440 wrong when america does it i'm afraid it's because of this idea that the west because the west has done

00:40:37.900 so well and because the west is is so successful in so many ways that we're not allowed to put the

00:40:45.740 priorities of our countries first that other countries are able to do that but we're not able

00:40:51.140 to do that when we do it it's some kind of form of bigotry and think about it in a different way

00:40:57.080 if the mayor of tulsa said look i'm gonna put the needs of people who live in tulsa i don't know

00:41:04.860 which are called tolsans i'm gonna put the people of this city first and i'm not going to care as

00:41:10.840 much about the people of st louis or the people of albany as much as i care about the people of

00:41:17.160 tulsa i can't care about everyone who lives in every other city would you say that's wrong if that

00:41:22.840 mayor said look i think tulsa is the greatest city in the world and i'm gonna put the needs of

00:41:27.220 of the people who live in in tulsa before the needs of people who live in dallas you would say no

00:41:33.220 that's a really good mayor like you want a mayor who is going to put the needs of the people who

00:41:37.420 live in his jurisdiction first you don't want you don't want a mayor who says you know what i

00:41:42.460 honestly i honestly care about sacramento just as much as i care about tulsa so we're gonna have to

00:41:47.860 weigh we're gonna have to weigh what the people of sacramento want with what the people uh in my

00:41:53.000 jurisdiction want you would say that's terrible that's horrible leadership and so if that's true

00:41:57.960 if it's okay for the mayor of atlanta to care about atlanta the most if it's okay for the mayor of

00:42:02.340 atlanta for example to say atlanta is the greatest city in the world uh if that's not bigoted then it's

00:42:08.720 not bigoted for the leaders of a particular country um especially america since we are in america uh

00:42:16.340 it's not bigoted it's not wrong to say look we're gonna put the needs the priorities of our people

00:42:20.820 first and we think that america was founded on the best ideas and ideals in the world and we think

00:42:26.000 that we've got the greatest people and we want to make america strong that is traditionally what

00:42:31.380 people are thinking when they call themselves nationalists or they think about nationalists

00:42:35.940 they're talking about the sovereignty of their country the strength of their borders prioritizing

00:42:41.240 the needs of their country and look a strong america means a strong world a weak america

00:42:46.660 means a strong china and that is bad for the rest of the world it's bad when you have 1.00

00:42:51.700 an officially atheist communist oppressive regime that is the world's superpower and there will always be a 0.97

00:42:58.380 world's superpower so a weak america is really bad for the world a strong china is really bad for the 1.00

00:43:03.980 world a strong russia a strong iran is really bad for the world a strong america is really good for 0.78

00:43:09.300 the world and so i just want to take a step back and define that term like what do you mean by

00:43:14.640 nationalist and then when you combine it with this term christian nationalist what it what is actually

00:43:20.000 meant by that like are you just talking about the people who stormed the capital obviously we're on the

00:43:24.200 same page that was wrong and that was egregious um are you talking about uh what what are you talking

00:43:30.580 about are you talking about people who use christianity to try to justify their like political

00:43:38.760 opinions um i think it's important for us to know what you mean by christian nationalism if you're just

00:43:44.940 talking about being a christian who believes that the god of the universe who invented right and wrong

00:43:51.500 invented good and bad should be the general inspiration for what our laws are because all

00:43:57.240 laws speak to a worldview all laws speak to a value system a belief system all laws speak to some kind

00:44:04.040 of belief in some kind of bigger power um all laws speak to some kind of religion where it whether it's

00:44:12.280 the secular progressive religion or the judeo-christian worldview all laws speak to some kind of morality

00:44:19.320 and some kind of moral view so is that christian nationalism is it just being patriotic or is it this

00:44:27.040 kind of what i agree is toxic this kind of idea that america is modern day israel that we are god's chosen

00:44:33.780 people and that um everything that happens every eternal like prophecy is hinged on what happens here in

00:44:44.220 america if that is what you're talking about then of course i agree that america is not modern day

00:44:50.760 israel that america is not the city on the hill america is not god's chosen people that the church

00:44:57.220 is god's chosen people that christians are of course universally um god's chosen people the city on the hill

00:45:04.920 i agree with you on that but i think we have to be really specific and if it's that like if it's if we

00:45:11.200 agree that the toxicity of that christian nationalism which is a false teaching that america is modern

00:45:16.920 day israel and all the prophecies in the bible have to be fulfilled in america and that eschatology

00:45:21.600 the end times is dependent on what happens in america if that's the case i think that is a small

00:45:26.220 sliver of people i i just don't think that that is all that influential and i don't think it's as big

00:45:32.700 of a threat as people like tim keller and beth moore say that it is compared to progressivism

00:45:37.880 i mean it's just not like how many christian nationalist influencers do you know and again

00:45:43.780 i think most people who use that term have no idea what they're even saying but man how much and how

00:45:49.860 fast have you seen progressivism have you seen critical race theory which man we've defined a

00:45:54.900 thousand times and i'm not going to take the time to do it right now i'll link to past episodes if you

00:45:59.620 want to hear a thorough definition of that like how fast have you seen the church grow soft on sin

00:46:05.520 and take examples of secular uh social justice and try to apply it to what should be biblical justice

00:46:13.560 like how much have you seen the church crumble and weaken because we look and sound more like the world

00:46:20.440 than we do christians than we do the bible like how much have we taken the bible out of context ripped

00:46:26.800 the bible apart deconstructed our faith in the name of worshiping progressivism we've seen that a lot 0.99

00:46:34.360 i mean think about all of the cultural institutions that progressivism has taken has taken over i mean

00:46:41.280 we've got big tech we've got major corporations we've got most of the mainstream media we've now

00:46:46.160 got most of the federal government we've got a lot of the intelligence community uh we've got

00:46:51.540 some of the military as you guys probably saw with the back and forth between the military and

00:46:56.100 and tucker carlson um we've got most of public education we've got most of academia i mean

00:47:03.780 most of our huge institutions did i already say big tech and and the major corporations like amazon

00:47:09.700 all of those huge institutions with all of this power they're all progressive they're all on the

00:47:16.360 same page they all hate conservative christianity they all hate conservatives in general they all hate

00:47:22.180 any kind of dissent and they are wetting that power um in an onslaught against what half of the

00:47:29.500 country thinks and believes and loves and holds dear and i think it is an absolute farce it's an

00:47:38.260 absolute lie it's or it's just a delusion to think that the biggest threat could be this sliver of

00:47:45.780 christian nationalists who like where is their power like where's their institutional backing where do

00:47:51.760 you see this happening how do you see this seeping in when clearly so many of the powers that be

00:47:58.400 and so much of what we're seeing manifest itself in the church in the way of false teaching not all

00:48:03.860 not all but so much of what we see is coming from progressivism is coming from a total redefinition

00:48:12.180 of what justice looks like of what gender looks like of what sexuality looks like what sin looks

00:48:16.660 like who jesus is who god is what the times are going to look like what heaven is what the new heavens

00:48:21.300 and the new earth are going to look like it's all being replaced by a new worldview which is critical

00:48:26.520 theory whether people understand what critical theory is or not that's not to say that that form

00:48:31.980 of christian nationalism that worships donald trump or worships america or sees america as something that

00:48:37.560 it's not is it bad and toxic and wrong and that we shouldn't talk about it but i think that we need to

00:48:42.140 be really clear about like where the real threats are coming from and we need to understand what they

00:48:47.400 are and i agree with him we should not dehumanize people on either side like we should be able to unite in

00:48:53.800 the gospel and to call out false false teachings equally but i also think we need to be really

00:48:57.900 realistic about what the threat is and let me end really quickly because i know we're running out of

00:49:02.180 time on a particular example of this so the christian post reported on this i originally saw it from

00:49:09.100 christopher rufo who has been on this podcast a couple times that california ethnic studies proposal

00:49:14.080 teaches kids white christians are evil they chant to aztec gods the article says the california

00:49:20.780 department of education is set to vote on a new ethnic studies curriculum aimed at the decolonization

00:49:25.300 of american society and includes lessons teaching students to chant to aztec gods if approved what is

00:49:31.080 being called the ethnic studies model curriculum will be implemented statewide in the golden states

00:49:36.040 primary and secondary public schools which serve approximately 6 million students in some 10 000

00:49:40.580 schools according to investigative journalist christopher rufo who wrote about the study or wrote about the

00:49:45.500 issue in city journal white christians are guilty of theicide against indigenous tribes the killing of

00:49:51.960 their deities and replacing them with a christian faith um this particular teacher argues in a chart

00:49:59.100 white settlers thus established a regime of uh coloniality that's a new one dehumanization 0.91

00:50:04.660 and genocide and the ultimate goal according to um kauten i don't know how to pronounce this guy's last

00:50:11.440 name the guy who started this curriculum wants to teach this curriculum is to engineer a quote counter

00:50:16.680 genocide against white people the lessons also include an official ethnics study community chant and

00:50:23.780 it's recommended that teachers lead students in indigenous songs chants and affirmations including

00:50:28.300 the in lack of affirmation which is a direct appeal to aztec gods and um they worship that particular god

00:50:36.820 through human sacrifices and cannibalism and apparently these students are going to learn that that

00:50:41.760 is all well and good and again that this is a counter genocide against whites in particular white christians 0.97

00:50:47.880 i know that this seems extreme and i'm not saying that this is going to be like in a school near you

00:50:52.900 tomorrow um and this is just one example and of course california is crazy but what we see in california

00:51:00.880 we typically see in the rest of the world and i'm telling you like this is the natural conclusion

00:51:06.220 to critical theory and critical race theory like this is the natural conclusion to a worldview that

00:51:12.160 categorizes people as oppressed versus oppressor based on their skin color on the intersectionality

00:51:18.380 scale the people with the least amount of uh oppression points and the most amount of oppressor points

00:51:23.860 according to that worldview are white christians um and so social justice says there has to be

00:51:30.820 a way of retribution not just restoration there has to be a way of revenge in order to create so-called

00:51:36.500 equity so everyone ends up being the same so it's trying to write historic injustices with modern

00:51:43.180 injustices like a so-called counter genocide i mean we're talking about elementary schools and middle

00:51:49.640 schools being infiltrated in this stuff and you guys have probably seen progressive influencers on

00:51:54.400 tiktok on instagram talk about decolonizing and deconstructing your christianity so it will

00:52:00.440 no longer be offensive to people like this um and part of that deconstruction is always refusing to

00:52:07.960 believe john 14 6 that jesus is the way the truth the life no one comes to the father except through him

00:52:14.020 this is now seen as white supremacy the belief in the inerrant word of god is now seen as white

00:52:19.720 supremacy the belief that jesus is the only way of course is seen as somehow white supremacist and

00:52:26.760 um the belief in traditional christianity traditional sexuality traditional marriage all of that

00:52:33.320 always falls away in the process of so-called deconstruction and the decolonization that is being

00:52:39.400 pushed here and i've seen daryl harrison who i've had on this podcast talk about the rise of nativism

00:52:45.800 um among christians and trying to say that we need to get back to the kind of mysticism and the paganism

00:52:52.360 that uh we saw in uh early native americans before the settlers came and we really need to decolonize

00:53:00.120 in the sense that we need to get back to what africans believed before christianity came about 0.81

00:53:05.960 and that christianity and the form that we see today is just the white man's religion and decolonizing it

00:53:11.980 basically means undoing all of it deconstructing it it basically means taking everything away that is

00:53:18.880 culturally unpopular and inconvenient to believe and replacing it with some of the stuff that we're

00:53:24.460 seeing in this kind of curriculum this is being institutionalized and so i always tell you guys

00:53:29.600 you should be in the spheres that you occupy pushing christian values just as hard as these secular

00:53:37.180 humanists are pushing their worldview nothing is neutral nothing is neutral there is no such thing

00:53:44.360 as a neutral curriculum there's no such thing as a neutral education that your child is getting at

00:53:50.420 public school uh these people on the left believe that you are a christian nationalist if you try to

00:53:56.820 influence the spheres that you occupy with christianity but there's no problem with their with them pushing

00:54:02.420 their faith of secular humanism and progressivism encounter genocide because that's all fine

00:54:08.660 uh but you pushing yours is deeply problematic i know like i said i'm a conservative so i'm biased i

00:54:14.940 think this is a much bigger threat what we are seeing this form of progressivism and marxism i think

00:54:21.860 it's a much bigger threat to the country it's a much bigger threat to the church um because it's not

00:54:26.780 it's not popular to be a christian nationalist in the sense that you're like the actual toxic form that

00:54:32.520 we talked about that's not like no one's getting platformed because of that no one's getting paid

00:54:37.660 because of that like no one is becoming more popular or more accepted by the world because

00:54:44.420 they uh believe that america is modern day israel and that trump is the messiah of the west like

00:54:53.560 that's not popular but what is popular is letting go of every orthodox tenet of the christian faith in

00:55:00.880 the name of decolonization and acceptance and tolerance to the point to where you think that somehow

00:55:06.440 equalizing uh the wrongs of the past is by hurting and wiping out uh people who you think represent

00:55:16.200 those wrongs today i think that's a much bigger threat and i think that we need to be honest and

00:55:21.600 serious about uh what actually we are facing now i told you that i was going to end positively this

00:55:29.280 has kind of been like a wide-ranging um episode but it's all been kind of centered on the things

00:55:34.220 that tim keller have said recently there's a lot of craziness that's going on in the world there's a

00:55:39.620 lot of craziness that's going on in the church that's going on in your kid's school and it's

00:55:43.700 really easy to despair but i want to bring us back to what i said in the beginning that look god's gonna

00:55:48.640 take care of everything that we are facing today like there's one day not going to be any confusion

00:55:54.900 there's one day not going to be any struggle there's not going to be any politics there's not

00:55:59.460 going to be any um terrible uh this terrible kind of curriculum that we're seeing in schools there's

00:56:04.720 not going to be this kind of indoctrination there's not going to be left versus right there's not going

00:56:09.180 to be partisan politics there's not going to be hate there's not going to be tension there's not

00:56:13.860 going to be fear there's not going to be sorrow there's not going to be death there's not going to be

00:56:17.860 all of these things that we talk about on a daily basis that scare the heck out of us uh there's not

00:56:22.840 going to be any of that. And Tim Keller, now that he is facing death, everything kind of comes into

00:56:28.560 perspective. It's interesting how both birth and death tend to do that. When you have your first

00:56:33.400 child, they lay that child on your chest. Everything comes into perspective. You realize

00:56:37.540 the things that are important and not important. And the same thing happens, I think, with it when

00:56:42.540 you're facing the death of a loved one or facing your own imminent death, everything comes into

00:56:47.620 perspective. And you're again reminded of what's important and what is not. I do believe that the

00:56:52.140 things that are happening within the church, within culture, are important to push back upon

00:56:55.960 as much, as kindly, as strongly, as righteously, as biblically as we possibly can. Well, also keeping

00:57:05.900 in mind that we can be joyful, we can be happy, we can be hopeful in all of that, knowing that

00:57:11.900 ultimately God is in control. He's going to take care of all of it. Our job is to influence as much

00:57:18.020 as we can, uh, with the Christian life, the tiny spheres that we occupy in the tiny blip

00:57:24.100 of eternity, uh, that constitute our lives while we're here. Um, all right, that's all I've got

00:57:30.720 for today. I will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 15, 2021

Ep 385 ｜ Tim Keller's Warning about Death & Christian Nationalism

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