Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 386 ｜ Why Pope Francis Is Right on Marriage

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Today we are going to talk about the Pope,

00:00:15.840 the Catholic Church, saying that they will not, cannot bless same-sex unions. We'll look

00:00:21.680 at their reasoning for that and then some of the reactions that we have seen, both from

00:00:26.180 President Biden and from Don Lemon, the CNN host that I think are representative of what a lot of

00:00:34.220 progressive people of faith or progressive people who identify as Christians think about this kind

00:00:39.800 of announcement and this particular topic. And then we will go through why biblically we do believe

00:00:45.800 that marriage is exclusively defined as God defines it between a man and a woman. And then if we have

00:00:54.340 time after that explanation, I want to talk about this story that says it's possible that Jordan

00:01:00.080 Peterson, you guys know who that is, that he became a Christian, that he has come to Christ. So we're

00:01:08.320 going to talk about the story that is reporting on that. First, let's talk about this Pope story. So

00:01:15.680 this is according to the Associated Press, Vatican Bar's gay union blessing says God can't bless sin.

00:01:23.160 The article says, quote, the Vatican declared Monday that the Catholic Church won't bless same-sex

00:01:29.060 unions since God cannot bless sin. The Vatican's Orthodoxy office, the Congregation for the Doctrine

00:01:35.080 of the Faith, issued a formal response to a question about whether Catholic clergy have the authority to

00:01:41.040 bless gay unions. The answer, contained in a two-page explanation published in seven languages and

00:01:46.880 approved by Pope Francis was negative. When he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, the now Pope Francis

00:01:55.020 supported gay couples having legal protections in same-sex unions. But that is in the civil sphere,

00:02:01.640 he says, not within the church. In the article, the Vatican stressed the fundamental and decisive

00:02:07.220 distinction between gay individuals and gay unions, noting that the negative judgment on the blessing of

00:02:12.480 unions of persons of the same sex does not imply a judgment on persons. Well, that's interesting. I would

00:02:19.760 have to hear a little bit more context on what exactly they mean by that. You guys know I'm not a Catholic,

00:02:26.420 and so I am not looking to the Pope or to the Catholic Church for authority. I saw some comment saying that I

00:02:32.000 have hubris bucking against the Pope and saying that in some cases I don't believe the Pope to be biblically

00:02:37.980 correct. Well, there are a lot of Catholics who also believe that on some subjects the Pope is not

00:02:43.380 biblically correct. This Pope has kind of been regarded as somewhat of a progressive hero in a

00:02:49.160 variety of ways. His stance on climate change, his seeming distaste of Donald Trump has kind of

00:02:55.800 made him someone that people on the left like or they see as his champion, and so they are no doubt

00:03:02.460 disappointed by this official stance. The Daily Caller says that devout Catholic Joe Biden is at

00:03:11.460 odds with Pope on gay marriage, White House confirms. The article says, quote, during a White House press

00:03:17.640 briefing Monday afternoon, Psaki said that Biden continues to believe in support same-sex unions.

00:03:24.380 He has long had that position, she said, adding that Biden did not have a response to the Vatican. Of

00:03:29.780 course, we know that's true. He has been supportive of gay marriage for a very long time, I guess not

00:03:35.240 just within the civil sphere, but also he believes that the church should accept and condone and

00:03:40.140 celebrate same-sex unions, and he is also at odds with the Catholic Church on abortion. We've talked

00:03:48.100 before, he's not someone who is, oh, I'm personally pro-life, but I'm officially pro-choice. I just don't

00:03:54.560 believe that the government has a role in that. If he were truly pro-choice, then he would be supportive of

00:03:59.620 the Hyde Amendment, which protects people, protects our federal tax paying dollars or our federal tax

00:04:06.960 dollars from funding abortion. But of course, he has supported doing away with the Hyde Amendment, which has

00:04:14.100 just been done in this new stimulus package. And so now federal tax dollars will fund elective abortions.

00:04:22.680 And so this idea that Biden is some moderate, that his faith in any way is kind of dictating what he

00:04:29.860 believes about social, cultural, or political issues, just isn't true. I'm not doubting that he

00:04:35.060 goes to mass. I'm not doubting that he prays. But he obviously is at odds with official Catholic

00:04:41.420 teaching, with biblical teaching when it comes to things like abortion and when it comes to things

00:04:46.120 like marriage. And that would be why, by the way, Democrats are fully okay with his kind of religion.

00:04:54.120 Progressives tend to be okay with Christianity as long as your version of Christianity aligns

00:05:00.420 completely with secularism when it comes to these social, moral, political issues. As long as there

00:05:06.060 is very little daylight between you who identify as a Christian and them who identifies as an atheist or

00:05:12.920 agnostic or whatever, then you're okay. As long as you're not a Christian who actually believes in

00:05:17.960 the Bible, who actually wants to apply the Bible to any sphere of life, then you're all right. That's

00:05:24.560 why they're okay with people like Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi being Catholic, but they're not okay

00:05:30.480 with Amy Coney Barrett being Catholic. They're not okay with Mike Pence being an evangelical. They're only

00:05:40.280 okay with the kind of Christianity that looks so worldly that you really can't distinguish between

00:05:45.900 the two. So like I said on this story, I don't care really what the Pope says. But the reason why

00:05:54.180 it's important to talk about this is because this is a subject that is very contentious within the

00:05:59.880 Christian church. This is contentious within evangelicalism, unfortunately. There's been a lot

00:06:04.880 of muddy water when it comes to this. There's been a lot of, I would say, propaganda and myths circulating

00:06:09.660 about what the Bible actually does and does not say. And it's understandably a hot topic and a

00:06:15.420 sensitive topic because you're dealing with how people feel. You're dealing with people's experiences,

00:06:22.760 with who people believe that they are. Now, the idea that your sexuality or your sexual feelings

00:06:28.920 actually amounts to your identity is a worldly principle. It is not a biblical principle. And yet,

00:06:36.900 you are talking about image bearers. You're talking about people with value. You're talking about

00:06:42.500 people who love someone of the same sex. And it is understandably very sensitive and very difficult

00:06:50.140 to talk about this issue, especially if you are someone who is going to say, yes, this is sin.

00:06:56.680 Because the immediate reaction will be, well, you can't possibly love me and say that who I am is sin

00:07:03.000 or say that who I am is wrong. You can't possibly not be bigoted towards me or not hate me if that

00:07:11.140 is your stance. And it's very difficult for a lot of Christians to say or to explain how, no,

00:07:16.920 I don't hate you. I actually love you as I love all of my neighbors. I think that you are fearfully

00:07:21.980 and wonderfully made, as Psalm 139 says. I know that you're made in the image of God and that you have

00:07:26.440 just as much value as I do. But look, here's what Scripture says. And if God is love, then agreeing with

00:07:32.920 God, even on the issue of sexuality in marriage, is also love. It's very difficult to explain those

00:07:41.560 things, of course, especially when there have been Christians or people who profess the name of Christ

00:07:47.760 who have been so hateful in their communication of their stance on this issue, that have elevated

00:07:55.780 homosexuality, for example, to a place of premier sin or supreme sin that cannot be righted, that

00:08:04.240 cannot be repented from, that is worse than any other kind of sin. There has been that kind of

00:08:11.440 hypocrisy. There has been that kind of outright hatefulness coming from people who profess the name

00:08:17.920 of Christ. And that is part of why this conversation is so difficult today. So people on the left side of

00:08:24.180 the aisle or people who identify as gay in some ways are justified in their fear of having conversation

00:08:31.000 with Christian conservatives about this subject because they might fear some kind of manifestation

00:08:36.940 of our beliefs that is actually very cruel. And so it is important to us, though, for us as Christians

00:08:44.760 to be as clear as we can on this subject, to agree with God on this subject, while being as loving as we

00:08:51.500 possibly can. And being loving and being gentle and being kind and hospitable does not mean compromise.

00:08:58.020 I think that's something that we really need to realize, that we can love people and we should love

00:09:04.560 people by speaking the truth in love and that we don't cease being hospitable to them. We don't cease

00:09:10.520 being kind to them. But we also don't pretend that something is gray when it's really not. And you have

00:09:19.040 probably heard before that the Bible actually doesn't say anything about homosexuality, that

00:09:25.200 the word for homosexuality in the Old and New Testament actually is supposed to mean either male

00:09:32.460 prostitution or it's supposed to mean rape, or you've probably heard that it's supposed to mean

00:09:36.620 pedophilia. These kinds of newfangled ways to interpret the Bible and to pick and choose words

00:09:45.040 that we don't like and to say that actually the interpretation was wrong. That's been around

00:09:49.560 for a long time. The fact of the matter is, is that it's just not true. It's not true that the

00:09:55.920 original language speaks to something else besides homosexuality in the verses that do speak to

00:10:04.460 homosexuality. I mean, we do see it in both the Old and the New Testament. But what we're going to go

00:10:10.780 through biblically is not those verses and go back to the original Hebrew or the original Greek,

00:10:16.140 because I actually think that's leading us down the wrong path in this kind of conversation.

00:10:24.480 Because how we read the Bible and how we figure out what God says is good and what God says is wrong

00:10:31.320 is not just by looking at what He tells us not to do, not just by seeing, okay, what does He command

00:10:39.500 against? But we also ask when we read the Bible, what does He say is? What does God say is good?

00:10:46.520 How does He define things in the positive sense? So yes, you can go into the Bible and you can say,

00:10:52.960 okay, how can I finagle this verse or how can I reinterpret this verse in order to get away with

00:10:59.260 the things that I want to get away with? We're probably all guilty of that at some point in our

00:11:04.940 Christian walk. But the fact of the matter is, is that does not show a heart that is actually in

00:11:09.480 submission to Christ. That does not show a heart that reflects that of Christ, which says, not my

00:11:14.660 will, but your will be done. When we read the Bible, we say, who does God say that He is? Who does God say

00:11:22.040 that I am? How does He tell me to live? Not just, hey, what does He tell me not to do? And how can I get

00:11:28.700 away with doing the things that I want to do? But what does He say is? And how can I submit my entire

00:11:35.620 life to His authority? What can I get away with is not the proper question to be asking when you're

00:11:43.620 looking at biblical interpretation or when you are reading the Bible. If you are looking for ways to

00:11:49.460 justify what you want or to affirm what you already believe and feel, then yes, of course, it's easy to

00:11:55.240 maybe throw out the passages that you think are misinterpreted about homosexuality or to

00:12:00.100 look for a way to interpret them so that they will agree with you. But that should not. In any

00:12:09.280 subject, it doesn't matter what it is, be our question when reading scripture. So there are these

00:12:16.940 few verses about homosexuality, Leviticus 20, 13, Romans 1, 26 through 27, 1 Corinthians 6, 9,

00:12:25.320 1 Timothy 1, 10. But I actually think the more compelling argument is what God actually says

00:12:33.060 marriage and sexuality are, how He designs and how He defines marriage. You have probably heard before

00:12:40.800 that the Bible starts with a wedding and it ends with a wedding. It starts with the marriage of Adam

00:12:45.600 in Eve and Genesis and it ends with the marriage of Christ and His bride, the church in Revelation.

00:12:51.480 That is not a mistake. That is not a coincidence. That is deliberate. It points to the fact that

00:12:56.440 marriage, that earthly marriage reflects a spiritual reality. It is incredibly significant. Earthly marriage

00:13:03.180 reflects a spiritual reality as defined as man with woman. So the truth that we see in God's Word

00:13:11.980 about marriage that we are going to dig more deeply into, and you guys have heard me use this

00:13:16.860 alliteration probably a thousand times, but if you're new around here, you haven't. God's definition

00:13:22.400 of marriage is rooted in creation. It is reiterated in the New Testament. It's repeated by Jesus Himself,

00:13:30.200 and it is reflective of Christ's relationship with the church and therefore is representative

00:13:35.600 of the gospel. So I'm going to say that again in case you're taking notes and you want to write it down.

00:13:40.840 God's definition of marriage as male and female is rooted in creation. It's reiterated in the New

00:13:47.780 Testament. It's repeated by Jesus Himself. It is reflective of Christ's relationship with the

00:13:55.460 church and therefore it is representative of the gospel. So let's look at these five things. First,

00:14:02.760 it is rooted in creation. So Genesis 2, 18 through 25,

00:14:06.720 then the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a helper fit

00:14:11.700 for him. Now out of the ground, the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of

00:14:17.180 the heavens and brought them to the man and see what he would call them. And whatever the man called

00:14:21.920 every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all livestock and to birds of the

00:14:26.880 heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam, there was not found a helper for him. So the

00:14:31.960 Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man. And while he slept, took one of his ribs and closed

00:14:37.000 up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man, he made into a woman and

00:14:42.140 brought her to the man. Then the man said, this is at last bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.

00:14:48.100 She called, she shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. Therefore, a man shall leave his

00:14:54.480 father and his mother and hold fast to his wife and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife

00:15:01.140 were both naked and not ashamed. So in Genesis, we see God's intention for marriage, not just he

00:15:08.860 created in that he created a man and a woman to be together, but he also gave them roles right away.

00:15:15.220 So immediately there is a distinction and not just sex, but gender roles. So Adam was given the

00:15:22.540 responsibility to name the animals to steward the earth, but he needed a helper. He needed someone to

00:15:28.640 come alongside him. Adam was not sufficient by himself. It was not enough. He was incomplete.

00:15:34.420 He had all the company of vegetation, all the beasts of the field, and he still needed something

00:15:39.360 else. He needed not someone to just be like him, but someone to compliment him. Woman was made

00:15:46.560 different from man in both biology and in role. So the two could compliment and complete one another.

00:15:53.620 Adam didn't just need a companion. He needed a wife. He didn't just need a friend. He

00:15:58.620 didn't just need a bro. He needed a woman. He needed a wife. So right away, we see not just

00:16:04.860 a physical distinction between the two, between male and female, but a role distinction between

00:16:09.820 the two that shows God's intention for marriage. The wife is to come alongside and to be a helper to

00:16:15.480 her husband. And it is for this reason, God's word says, that a man shall leave his original family

00:16:20.880 and hold fast to his wife. So the creation of man and woman and the marriage between them

00:16:26.540 is this stunning part of the creation account. It would be silly for us to say that this was just

00:16:33.480 an accident. Even just reading this, you can see this is the climax of the creation story. God creating

00:16:40.800 male and female in his image. Especially since this is reiterated so clearly in the New Testament,

00:16:48.720 first by Jesus himself in Matthew 19. We always hear, well, Jesus didn't have anything to say

00:16:53.900 about sexuality. Jesus didn't have anything to say about what gender is. Jesus didn't have anything

00:16:59.160 to say about marriage, but he does. In a question that he was asked about divorce, he answers like

00:17:05.320 this in Matthew 19 verses four through six. Haven't you read, he replied, that at the beginning,

00:17:12.400 the creator made them male and female and said, for this reason, a man shall leave his father and

00:17:17.840 mother and be united to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. So he's quoting Genesis there.

00:17:23.920 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let no one separate.

00:17:30.760 So even though he's talking about divorce, he is affirming that creation of male and female,

00:17:35.960 the designation, the design of marriage as between a man and a woman. And of course,

00:17:41.280 John 1 tells us that the word was God and that he was with God in the beginning. So Jesus being part

00:17:49.480 of the triune God is part of this creation. Anyone who tries to separate Jesus from God or Jesus from

00:17:55.640 the Old Testament by saying, well, I don't need to focus on that because Jesus didn't say it. Well,

00:18:00.340 you don't understand the nature of God. He's triune. Jesus is God. That is, by the way,

00:18:06.840 I don't want to get off on a tangent. The distinction of Christianity and other offshoots

00:18:13.720 that try to claim the name of Christianity. Jesus is God in Christianity. He's not just a son of God.

00:18:20.040 He's not just a messenger of God. He's not just a prophet. He's not just a good teacher. Jesus is

00:18:25.840 God. So he cannot be separated from the God of the Old Testament, the so-called God of the Old

00:18:30.700 Testament. He cannot be separated from Old Testament teachings. He cannot be separated from the

00:18:35.040 creation account. He is God. And he reaches to the creation account to affirm what gender is and to

00:18:44.080 affirm what marriage is. And it's not just Jesus. It's also, we see this in Ephesians 5. We see it

00:18:50.480 in Colossians as well. But I will take this passage from Ephesians that reiterates and emphasizes the

00:18:56.240 reasons for the definition of marriage. Ephesians 5, 22 through 25.

00:19:00.500 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife,

00:19:06.100 even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now,

00:19:11.100 as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

00:19:15.520 Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

00:19:19.940 Here we see again that marriage is defined as between a wife and a husband, and that it wasn't

00:19:24.700 just because of some cultural context of the day, that they only knew about heterosexual relationships,

00:19:31.480 and so they just kind of had to say this because it was right in society at the time. That's not true.

00:19:38.240 Like, that's not true of Ephesus. That's not true of the ancient world. They definitely knew what

00:19:43.200 homosexuality was. They definitely knew that there were different kinds of sexuality. There were different

00:19:49.040 kinds of romance. There were different kinds of relationships than this covenant relationship

00:19:53.860 between a male and a female. And this passage tells us why exactly, why spiritually, why eternally

00:20:02.100 the definition of marriage is so important, because these roles are reflective of a spiritual reality

00:20:08.440 between Christ and the church. So a wife is to submit to her husband as she submits to the Lord,

00:20:14.460 in the same way that the church submits to Christ. And the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves

00:20:21.820 the church. Christ loves the church so much that he gave himself up for her. He died for her. So that

00:20:27.880 means that a husband is called to love his wife so much that he is willing to give his entire life

00:20:33.420 for her, lay himself down for her. That is a radical, unconditional, sacrificial love that husbands

00:20:39.740 are called to. That would have been radical for the time. To hear that, hey, wife,

00:20:44.460 you're not just a property. You're not just the property of your husband. You're not just a sexual

00:20:48.640 object for your husband to be tossed aside when he gets bored and he wants to have sex with his

00:20:53.280 servant or he wants to have sex with someone else. This would have been radical to hear that just as

00:20:59.400 wives are called to submit to their husbands as they submit to the Lord, as the church submits to

00:21:05.700 Christ, husbands are also called to sacrificially lay themselves down for their wife. That would have

00:21:13.260 been radical and different. This would have been music to women's ears at the time. This would

00:21:18.120 have been music to wives' ears at the time. Now, of course, we shudder at the word submit and we don't

00:21:24.620 like this kind of dichotomy because we think it's oppressive or repressive or we think that it is

00:21:30.560 oppressive of our rights and of our independence. Women at this time would have thought that this was

00:21:37.260 one of the most beautiful and freeing and liberating messages that they have ever heard because this is

00:21:44.740 not what they saw in culture. They saw the objectification of women. They saw the tossing

00:21:49.000 aside of women. They saw the abuse of women. They didn't see female empowerment. They weren't looking

00:21:53.660 at feminism. They were looking at the outside world and they saw women being used and abused and

00:21:59.320 discarded on a daily basis. And here, God through Paul says, no, no, no, that's not going to be the

00:22:04.680 relationship between Christians in marriage. The relationship between Christians in marriage is

00:22:09.620 going to be that the wife submits to and respects her husband and that the husband so sacrificially

00:22:14.720 and unconditionally loves his wife. This passage in Ephesians doesn't just stand alone. It roots itself

00:22:23.960 again back in the creation account. The same way that Jesus rooted his response on divorce back in the

00:22:32.040 creation account. So this Ephesians passage roots itself back in the creation account. So we know it

00:22:38.260 wasn't just a cultural moment. It wasn't just a societal thing. It just, it wasn't just like this

00:22:43.380 temporary command for wives to submit to their husbands and husbands to love their wives. This is

00:22:47.720 something that was rooted in Genesis. So it goes on to say in verses 28 through 33,

00:22:54.580 in the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves

00:23:01.680 himself for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ does

00:23:07.000 the church because we are members of his body. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother

00:23:12.240 and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound. And I am saying

00:23:18.800 that it refers to Christ in the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself.

00:23:24.580 And let the wife see that she respects her husband. So this passage is the perfect encapsulation

00:23:31.160 of what we establish for why God's definition of marriage is so specific and so significant.

00:23:38.580 God's definition is rooted in creation. It is reiterated in the New Testament. It's repeated

00:23:44.220 by Jesus. It is reflected in Christ's relationship with the church, and therefore it is representative

00:23:49.820 of the gospel. So God made wives and husbands physically complimentary, but much more importantly,

00:23:57.000 he made them spiritually complimentary to be an earthly representation for the one miraculous

00:24:02.900 eternal marriage between Christ and his church. So the submission of the wife and the sacrifice of her

00:24:08.940 husband reflects a far greater reality than what we see on earth. And far be it from us,

00:24:14.660 fallible human beings who just want to go along with culture to say that that definition doesn't

00:24:19.820 matter, to say that that representation or reflection of an eternal reality does not matter

00:24:24.900 just because it makes us feel better. If you see marriage as only a physical bond, then sure,

00:24:30.460 it may be easy to redefine it however you'd like, but that's not possible for the Christian.

00:24:35.600 We don't get to do that. God has already defined marriage and he tells us why he did so in his

00:24:40.960 explanation of Christ and the church. That was not arbitrary. Like I said, it wasn't cultural. It

00:24:46.240 wasn't temporal. This was meant to reflect something that is eternal. So again, it's not just about what

00:24:51.480 the Bible says not to do. It's about what God says is, what he says is good and right and true.

00:24:58.300 These terms that we see in scripture from creation to revelation between a bride and a bridegroom

00:25:05.380 are not gender neutral, and they're not meant to be gender neutral. They are intentional.

00:25:10.240 They're not interchangeable because men and women are not only physically different,

00:25:15.400 but our physical differences represent a spiritual reality that God clearly

00:25:19.700 believes is important. He says is important. So according to God, marriage is so much more than

00:25:25.120 what the world says that it is. The world sees marriage as something two people do, or nowadays,

00:25:30.960 I think I saw that there are like three people can get married. I guess the world would say it's

00:25:36.460 something that people do simply because they want to and because they're in love. And if one day

00:25:40.880 they don't want to and they're not in love, well, they don't need to be married anymore. They need to

00:25:44.640 pursue their truest self and do whatever they want and do whatever makes them happy. But that's not

00:25:50.780 what God says. God says that I have defined marriage as a physical and spiritual bond of unity

00:25:55.800 that should not be broken. And this speaks to so much more than gay marriage, by the way. It also

00:26:01.860 speaks to adultery. It speaks to all of the ways that humans distort marriage from its biblical design.

00:26:09.300 And this is why, and I know that it's contentious, but this is why God also says that he hates divorce.

00:26:16.740 That doesn't mean that he hates people who get a divorce. That doesn't mean that there

00:26:20.180 never is a reason to walk away, of course, in cases of abuse and possibly, as we read in the Bible,

00:26:26.920 although there are some different interpretations of this, in cases of infidelity, there are reasons,

00:26:31.920 of course, to protect yourself and to protect your children in those situations and to leave

00:26:36.200 that husband. But God hates divorce in that he hates the tearing apart of a union that is supposed

00:26:44.020 to last. Jesus tells us that in Matthew 19, as we already read, he gives us the reason

00:26:51.080 that, yes, unfaithfulness for divorce, unfaithfulness might be a reason for divorce

00:26:57.920 and abuse, of course, as we just talked about. But that marriage is much more than a physical bond,

00:27:06.900 that it's a spiritual bond, that it's reflective of Christ in the church, and therefore it is not

00:27:11.920 to be broken because it's representative of the gospel. It's representative of God's sacrificial

00:27:18.380 love for us. Marriage is sacred. Marriage is a picture of God's plan of redemption. It was not

00:27:23.840 arbitrarily designed so that you and I could change it as culture compels us or as feelings demand.

00:27:30.660 Now, as we know, and as we already stated, how are we to treat the LGBTQ community? We are hospitable.

00:27:38.900 Of course, we are kind. We are loving. They are image bearers. We are self-sacrificial. For those

00:27:44.460 who are not Christians, we remember that it is not their sexuality that we are primarily concerned

00:27:49.480 with. It is their spirituality. And so for every person who is apart from Christ, no matter what

00:27:55.920 your sin struggle is, you're dead in sin. I was dead in sin before Christ saved me. That means that no

00:28:03.100 matter what your sin is before Christ, what you are repenting of, what we all repented of before we

00:28:08.900 came to Christ was unbelief, not a particular sin struggle, but that was our primary. That was our

00:28:15.900 first act of repentance, repenting from unbelief, not our sexuality, but unbelief. So when Christ

00:28:22.380 raises someone from death to life, as Ephesians 2 tells us, he changes them. He sanctifies them. He may

00:28:28.280 not remove a struggle forever, but he calls them to a new life in which self-denial is the rule rather

00:28:34.240 than the exception. And that is true for every single one of us. Therefore, the conversations

00:28:39.400 that we have with these people should not be centered on their relationships with men or with

00:28:44.680 women, but their relationship with Christ. So for those who identify as Christians, if we have a

00:28:50.660 relationship with them, we speak the truth. I don't think that that means that you have to, you know,

00:28:57.180 Instagram message every single person who falls into this category. But for those in your life,

00:29:03.340 yes, I do think that we have this very difficult but love-compelled obligation to speak the truth.

00:29:10.120 First Corinthians 5 says that those within the local church aren't to associate with anyone who

00:29:14.700 calls themselves a Christian and yet is consistently acting in a way that the Bible calls immoral. That is

00:29:19.940 tough, man. That's really tough. That's really tough for me. And I can't tell you I know

00:29:25.300 exactly what that looks like. But we speak with kindness, we speak with gentleness, and we speak

00:29:30.540 with truth. And if we truly are going to obey the command to love our neighbor as ourselves,

00:29:35.560 that means we have to speak truth. If we believe that God is good, if we believe that he's loving,

00:29:40.640 if we believe that the Bible is his word, then loving someone means showing them the goodness of

00:29:45.620 God, which is revealed in scripture. If we believe that Jesus is better than this world,

00:29:49.820 then we speak the truth. If we believe that God's way is better than our way,

00:29:54.320 then we speak the truth. That's a lot easier said than done. I realize that. But it all goes back to,

00:30:01.580 do we believe God? Like, do we take him at his word? Do we have faith that his ways are better,

00:30:07.060 that his ways are higher than ours? That even if culture says something is bigoted, if the God who

00:30:13.040 says that he is love says something is good, says something is right, says something is true,

00:30:18.240 then we are loving by agreeing with him. Don Lemon, he is the CNN host, he said something on The View

00:30:28.800 in reaction to all of this that I want to respond to because I think that his response is representative

00:30:34.720 of what a lot of progressives say when we talk about this conversation of what the Bible says is

00:30:40.780 sin and what is not, especially as it pertains to sexuality. I'm going to play a short blip of that

00:30:47.320 clip. The Catholic Church and many other churches really need to reexamine themselves and their

00:30:53.000 teachings because that is not what God is about. God is not about hindering people or even judging

00:30:59.120 people. All right. So I have no idea if Don Lemon identifies as a Christian. I'm guessing that he

00:31:07.600 does profess Christianity or maybe he professes Catholicism. If he feels like, you know,

00:31:13.020 the need to talk about the subject and talk about what the Catholic Church believes, I have no problem

00:31:19.680 with him criticizing the Catholic Church. I'm not going to say that he has hubris for doing that

00:31:25.080 because I've criticized the Catholic Church. I've criticized, well, I criticize Protestant teachers

00:31:30.380 all the time. I mean, I believe that we absolutely have the right and the ability, according to God's

00:31:36.600 word, to disagree with people who are older than us, who have more authority than us, who have

00:31:42.100 more experience than we do, more degrees than we do. I mean, that's one of the beautiful things about

00:31:48.200 the Protestant Reformation is that it put the Bible in our hands and it gave us, as Christians, as people

00:31:54.820 in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, according to 1 Corinthians 6.19, the ability and the authority to

00:32:00.100 understand faith for ourselves, to be able to interpret Scripture for ourselves. That doesn't mean that we are

00:32:05.040 not under the authority in some way or under the wisdom and guidance of teachers and of the Church

00:32:13.440 in some way, but it does mean that we never agree with the teacher who disagrees with God. We do have

00:32:20.700 that authority as Christians. So I don't have any problem with Don Lemon saying to the Catholic Church,

00:32:26.000 you know, they really need to check themselves. The fact of the matter is, as we just explained,

00:32:30.000 is that he's wrong. Like, he's wrong on this. He, like a lot of people, don't understand. Apparently,

00:32:36.920 I'm trying to be as charitable as possible. Apparently, don't understand how we are to read

00:32:40.720 the Bible in the affirmative sense, not just the negative sense. I am also surprised that he says

00:32:47.840 that God is not about judging people. He is probably one of the most judgmental news hosts that I have

00:32:54.240 ever had the pleasure of watching on television. And so apparently, it's okay for us to judge people

00:33:03.520 the way that we want to judge them, but it's not okay for God, the creator of the universe,

00:33:08.440 the authority over all of us to judge what he says is right and what he says is wrong.

00:33:14.760 Now, he is right in the sense that God the Father is not going to judge. This is what Jesus says

00:33:22.400 in John 5, 22. For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son.

00:33:29.060 So for someone like Don Lemon, we've got some good news and some bad news. It's true that God the

00:33:34.500 Father, according to Scripture, judges no one, but Jesus is going to be the one who judges. He is going

00:33:40.700 to be the one who judges the living and the dead, which is actually ironic because we see a lot of

00:33:45.360 progressive Christians say that Jesus wasn't about judgment. He wasn't about judging people.

00:33:49.100 While all the authority of judgment has been given to Jesus, and he says that he is going to judge all

00:33:54.340 of us. So oops. Romans 2, 16. God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. This passage says

00:34:03.040 that that is what is going to happen one day, the secrets of men. So yes, our overt actions, the things

00:34:08.860 that we say, but also all the secrets that go on in our hearts and our minds, God is going to find

00:34:15.880 those out. He knows all of them already, and that they are going to be judged by Christ Jesus.

00:34:22.420 Acts 17, 31. The times of ignorance got overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

00:34:29.160 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man, Jesus, whom he

00:34:35.720 has appointed. So again, we see that we are going to be judged through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 4, 3-5.

00:34:44.640 For the time that is passed suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do. So you've already had

00:34:50.700 your time of fun being a non-Christian is what this passage is saying. Living in sensuality, passions,

00:34:56.960 drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this, they are surprised

00:35:02.280 when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery and they malign you, but they will give

00:35:06.820 account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. He's ready. Like he's ready. He was ready

00:35:12.760 when this passage was being written. He's ready right now. And we understand that he is being

00:35:17.920 patient because the Bible also tells us that he wants as many people as possible to come

00:35:22.760 to know him, but he is ready to judge both the living and the dead. 2 Timothy 4, 1 through 4.

00:35:33.000 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead

00:35:38.360 and by his appearing and his kingdom. Preach the word. Be ready in season and out of season. Reprove,

00:35:45.060 rebuke, and exhort, and complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will

00:35:52.060 not endure sound teaching. I think that we are in that time, but having itching ears, they will

00:35:59.480 accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the

00:36:06.680 truth and wander off into myths. So we have to be vigilant. The judge is going to judge the living

00:36:15.860 and the dead. Jesus is going to judge the living and the dead. Even Christians are called to judge

00:36:20.420 with proper discernment. We are warned against hypocrisy, especially in Romans 2, for example,

00:36:26.680 but we are to judge with discernment. We are spiritual beings that have the ability through the Holy Spirit

00:36:32.080 to be able to judge according to the standards that God has laid out what is right and what is wrong.

00:36:38.480 It doesn't mean that we ever think that we're better than anyone because we all know that apart

00:36:41.800 from Christ that we're dead in our sin. So we're really just nothing. Anything that we have to boast

00:36:46.340 about comes from Christ. And so we have absolutely no justification for self-righteousness, no justification

00:36:52.420 for ego or pride or anything like that. Anything that we have to brag about, anything that we have to be

00:36:57.860 arrogant about is found in Christ and not ourselves. But that doesn't mean that we are not able to judge

00:37:04.680 what is right from what is wrong. We know that Christ is going to judge. Now, thankfully, if he is the one

00:37:11.900 that is in our stead, if he is the one that has given us our righteousness, if we proclaim the name of

00:37:19.820 Christ, then forever and ever our sins are forgiven. That there is no separation between us and God.

00:37:26.620 That both now and in eternity, we get to be reconciled to him, friends with him, co-heirs with Christ,

00:37:34.960 and we get to enjoy joy and peace and forgiveness and grace forever and ever. But those without Christ

00:37:41.980 who are judged are going to endure wrath and separation forever and ever and ever. This judgment

00:37:49.440 is real. And God tells us very clearly what is and what isn't, what's right and what's wrong in

00:37:54.440 Scripture. Sexuality and gender identity, they are different kinds of sin. The Bible tells us that

00:38:03.520 sexual sin is different because you sin against yourself. But it is not different in the sense that

00:38:11.300 it separates you from God in the same way that any other kind of sin does. No matter who we are,

00:38:18.180 no matter what our sin is, no matter what your sexual proclivities are, the fact of the matter

00:38:24.140 is, is that we are all dead in sin apart from Christ. And when we are judged, when both the

00:38:30.920 living and the dead are judged, we have to have our name written in the book of life. We have to be

00:38:36.420 saved by Christ in order to escape wrath. That's what the Bible tells us very clearly.

00:38:40.880 I want Don Lemon. I want everyone who has bought into this lie that the Bible changes as culture

00:38:48.400 changes, that we get to redefine things as we see fit. I want everyone to realize that we are all

00:38:56.160 going to face judgment one day and that the time for repentance, the Bible says, is now. And how

00:39:01.340 gracious is God that he has given us this opportunity? It's urgent. And Christians need to realize it is

00:39:08.040 urgent. Our submission to Christ or telling of the gospel is more urgent than, uh, than the agreement

00:39:15.160 that culture thinks that we owe them. Um, all right. So I want to get into this next story quickly

00:39:23.080 about Jordan Peterson, um, and whether or not he has accepted Christ and become a Christian.

00:39:30.420 All right. This is according to Faithwire, famed psychologist, Jordan Peterson tears up talking

00:39:42.140 about Jesus. So he says for a year or the article says for years, when asked if he believes in the

00:39:48.420 existence of God, Dr. Jordan Peterson has responded, I act as if God exists and I'm terrified that he

00:39:54.460 might. So Jordan Peterson, just even in that sentence expresses, um, a better understanding

00:40:02.160 of who God is than I think a lot of professing Christians do. We've talked a lot recently about,

00:40:09.160 uh, Matthew 10, when Jesus talks about sending Christians out among wolves, that there's going

00:40:16.160 to be a time when we're delivered over to the governors that we, that we're delivered over to the

00:40:20.600 authorities, that we shouldn't worry about what we're going to say, because God is going to speak

00:40:25.140 through us, uh, that the gospel is going to tear apart families. It's going to tear apart, uh,

00:40:30.340 apart communities. It's going to create division between people who are saved and who are unsaved

00:40:35.620 that we will be persecuted. But he tells us, have no fear of them. Verse 26, for nothing is covered

00:40:42.780 that will not be revealed or hidden that will not be known. Uh, he says in verse 28, do not fear those

00:40:50.040 who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in

00:40:56.460 hell. So Jordan Peterson, without even having professed Christ at the time that he was saying

00:41:01.900 how he feels about the existence of God, he has demonstrated a fear of God, um, in a way that

00:41:09.940 it speaks to a better understanding of who God actually is than most people who profess the name

00:41:17.940 of Christ. Jesus himself says, do not fear the world, but fear him, fear God who can destroy

00:41:25.460 both body and soul in hell. So in this conversation, um, he also said that in 2019, that he's not willing

00:41:34.680 to place myself conveniently in a box of believing in one man, namely Jesus to be the savior. But during

00:41:42.320 his conversation with Orthodox Christian artist, Jonathan Pagot, uh, Peterson revealed a profound

00:41:48.020 openness to Jesus with a vulnerability, unlike his past comments about faith in Christianity,

00:41:52.360 the difference in CS Lewis pointed this out. Well, Jordan Peterson says between those mythological

00:41:57.440 gods in Christ was that there's a historical representation of his existence as well. So what

00:42:03.080 you have in the figure of Christ is an actual person who actually lived plus a myth. And in some sense,

00:42:09.580 Christ is the union of those two things. The problem is I already believe that, but I'm amazed at my own

00:42:15.920 belief and I don't understand it. He continued beginning to cry because I've seen sometimes the

00:42:20.700 objective world and the narrative world touch, you know, that's union synchronicity. And I've seen that

00:42:25.980 many times in my own life. And so in some sense, I believe it's undeniable. Um, he told Pagot, he's read

00:42:33.640 from theologians who referenced Matthew 11 30, when Jesus told his disciples that his yoke is easy,

00:42:38.700 his burden is light arguing that there is joy in it. He says, there's a paradox there, obviously,

00:42:44.680 because it's also a take up your cross and follow me sort of thing. But the fact that I've been

00:42:48.840 living in constant pain makes the idea of joy seem cruel. I would say Peterson said, you guys might

00:42:54.760 know he has been struggling with, um, his mental health a lot for the past year or so. His wife has

00:43:00.260 been struggling health wise. He's just been going through a very hard time. He goes on. I have no idea

00:43:05.480 how to reconcile myself to that. I mean, I've reconciled myself to that by staying alive despite

00:43:10.780 it. Although there's very little worship. It doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of what I have.

00:43:15.580 Not only am I appreciative of what I have, I do everything I can to remind myself of it all the

00:43:20.700 time. And so does my wife. And then he goes on talking a little bit more about, um, his story.

00:43:26.600 And he talks about that, even though he understands this, it seems he understands the gospel. He

00:43:31.180 understands that even despite difficulty, you can have joy. I hope that he's read the book of Job to

00:43:36.820 see some kind of representation of this and, and what it actually looks like to question the God of

00:43:43.180 the universe and what God has to say in response, which even though Job 38 through 42 is terrifying,

00:43:49.420 it's also oddly comforting. So I hope that he goes there. One of the reasons why he has a hard time

00:43:55.020 with Christianity is because of Christian institutions and some Christians or people

00:44:01.040 who profess the name of Christ have acted. He told Pagot the way many believers live their lives

00:44:05.040 is not a sufficient testament to the truth. And of course, that's absolutely true.

00:44:09.040 We know Christians who proclaim the name of Christ, who do not live in any sort of way that reflects who

00:44:14.780 Christ is. And I'm not sure exactly what he means by, uh, by this, whether he's using his own

00:44:20.480 definition of what he thinks right and wrong is, or his own subjective definitions of compassion.

00:44:25.300 But of course, we know people who live just like the world. We know people who are hypocrites. We

00:44:29.040 know people who are frauds. We know people who have extorted others for money. We know abusers. We know

00:44:34.420 all kinds of terrible people who proclaim, uh, to be Christians. And that is very difficult for the

00:44:41.680 outside looking in to say, well, if Christianity is true, if Christianity is truly transformative,

00:44:47.420 and if I'm better off in there than I am out here, then why doesn't in there look any better than out

00:44:53.360 here? Um, and there's a special kind of religious hypocrisy that I think turns people off. But of

00:44:59.800 course, we also understand that Christians believe in this life, that we're not going to be perfect,

00:45:03.820 that we are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit, and that we should show the fruit of the Spirit,

00:45:08.740 and, uh, that we read in Galatians 6, but also that we understand that Christians make mistakes.

00:45:15.240 And we also believe in spiritual warfare, as Ephesians 6 tells us. We believe that Satan is

00:45:20.240 going to continue to try to tempt believers, partly for this very reason, that the outside world

00:45:25.720 looking in just sees a bunch of hypocrites and a bunch of cruel people, a bunch of, uh, people that

00:45:30.960 they don't want to be like, and that they walk away. They turn their back. Um, but the reality is,

00:45:38.340 is that you follow Christianity not for Christians, but for Christ. That doesn't mean that the behavior

00:45:42.680 of Christians doesn't matter, but you follow Christianity because you believe that it's

00:45:48.340 true, because your heart has been made from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh. You've been

00:45:54.340 regenerated by the Holy Spirit. And yes, other people's hypocrisy, um, can seem like a hindrance,

00:46:01.580 absolutely. But eternity is a really long time to pay the price for other people's hypocrisy

00:46:07.420 and for other people's misbehavior. Christ is worth it. Christ is worth all of the hypocrisy

00:46:12.760 that you might see by people who proclaim his name. He is worth, um, all of the, uh, duplicity,

00:46:19.700 all of the things that you may not like or approve of. And the people who say that they follow him,

00:46:25.260 Christ is still worth following because he is the way, the truth, and the life. And so we don't

00:46:30.240 follow Christ because we agree with all the people who say that they're a Christian. We follow Christ

00:46:34.120 because he is the way, the truth, and the life. And we have been convicted by the Holy Spirit

00:46:39.040 of that. Although I do completely understand where he's coming from. My prayer is that if it hasn't

00:46:44.880 happened already, that the Holy Spirit would convict, uh, Jordan Peterson of this truth,

00:46:51.620 that he would be saved. And how amazing is it that possibly that God has used what has been,

00:46:58.900 it sounds like such a horrific and trying year in his life to bring Jordan Peterson to himself.

00:47:04.560 And again, I think he already intellectually understands Christianity than a lot of people

00:47:08.940 do. He probably knows more about the Bible than a lot of us who have been reading the Bible and

00:47:12.820 believing in the Bible for a very long time do. All right, tomorrow we are going to, uh, it's going

00:47:24.140 to be a woman themed episode and I'm super excited about it. I've been planning on this and preparing

00:47:30.260 for it for, um, a few days. Now we are going to talk about what it means to be a woman. We're going

00:47:35.820 to look at, um, well, we're not actually going to look at it. We're going to talk about, uh, the Cardi B

00:47:41.980 Megan, the stallion, um, uh, dance, if you can even call it that at, at the Grammys and you do not need

00:47:50.040 to watch it. I didn't watch. I think I watched like a few second clip, but I get the gist. I've

00:47:55.760 read the stories about it. I unfortunately read some of the lyrics to the song and we are going to

00:48:01.200 talk about that. And then we're going to contrast it to what we see on the other extreme of what might

00:48:07.380 be considered, um, too far of an overcorrection on the other side. And we're going to see who does

00:48:14.460 Jesus say that women are? Why do women matter? What does Christianity say about women? What does

00:48:19.880 culture say about women? What does this mean, uh, politically? And I'm super, super excited about

00:48:25.280 that episode. I know you guys are really going to like it. Also, if we have time tomorrow, I'm going

00:48:29.860 to talk to a journalist about, uh, something called the pro act. And so the reason why I care about this

00:48:36.400 is because the pro act greatly affects freelancers. It greatly affects entrepreneurs. It greatly affects

00:48:42.460 especially, um, independent contractors. And so we're going to talk about that because this particular

00:48:48.800 bill makes it very, very hard for freelancers, independent contractors to function. It makes us,

00:48:56.180 it makes it very hard, uh, to do business because this requires you basically in most scenarios to

00:49:04.380 actually become an employee, to provide any kind of service for money. And this is in service to the

00:49:11.220 unions. They say that this is to try to protect employer rights. It's really just to empower the

00:49:16.620 unions. And the reason I want to talk about that tomorrow, the reason why I think it goes along with

00:49:21.200 the theme of being a woman is because I think this disproportionately impacts women. So many

00:49:27.400 freelancers in this country are moms who want to spend the majority of our time at home. Um, but we

00:49:34.000 still, you know, we either like have a hobby, like we're florists or we're photographers or podcasters,

00:49:40.240 and we like the flexibility and the freedom, um, that being an independent contractor gives us.

00:49:46.840 And this law would make it very, very difficult for us to be able to continue to do that. It would

00:49:54.380 basically require us to choose between having no job or between, um, being employed fully by a company.

00:50:02.400 And we'll explain all the ins and outs and the intricacies of that, um, tomorrow if we get a

00:50:09.120 chance. And then Thursday, I want your guys's feedback. So I've been trying to decide whether

00:50:13.860 or not on Thursday, we want to talk about what's going on at the border, because there's a lot of

00:50:18.840 troubling stuff that's, that's going on. There have been thousands of migrants that have under the

00:50:23.460 cover of the night been moved from the border to Midland, Texas, to Dallas, Texas. Um, boys,

00:50:29.780 for example, ages 15 to 17 are apparently being held just in a convention center, like hundreds and

00:50:37.560 hundreds of people because the, the border is in crisis right now. Thanks to the incentives of

00:50:42.320 the Biden administration, we have a surge in migrants, um, like something like 10,000

00:50:49.260 unaccompanied minors at the border, um, last year, which was significantly more than the year before.

00:50:55.520 And the year before that, thanks to the liberal policies that have been touted by the Biden

00:51:00.420 administration, there have been kids in cages who reportedly haven't been able to get food

00:51:04.980 for days under the Biden administration. And so I want to talk about that, but I also,

00:51:10.420 I also want to talk about this study that I've literally been hanging on to for, uh, for weeks

00:51:16.720 that, uh, talks about the, um, how liberals and conservatives see police shootings. And I want

00:51:24.920 to talk about systemic racism, um, within, uh, the police force or charges of systemic racism

00:51:31.860 within the police force and whether or not the Biden administration has actually done anything

00:51:36.880 in the way of this and what is true and what is not true about all of those claims in the so-called

00:51:42.280 anti-racist movement. So that's what I'm deciding between for Thursday, what's going on at the border

00:51:47.020 or the subject of, um, what's called systemic racism and police shootings and things like that,

00:51:53.840 especially in light of the Derek Chauvin trial that is, um, starting up right now. So let me know

00:52:00.080 which one you guys would rather hear about. All right. I will see you guys back here tomorrow

00:52:06.280 for women Wednesday.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 16, 2021

Ep 386 ｜ Why Pope Francis Is Right on Marriage

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