Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 405 ｜ Glorifying God Through Singleness & Dating

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I am super pumped about today's interview with Jonathan

00:00:15.520 Pakluda, JP. A lot of you guys probably know him because maybe you followed the porch. That

00:00:22.180 was the ministry that he was the head of when he was a pastor out of Dallas. And now he

00:00:29.900 pastors a church in Waco, and he's just an incredible pastor, an incredible communicator.

00:00:35.300 He focuses especially on dating and relationships and singleness and helps us navigate that or

00:00:43.180 helps single people and dating people navigate that with the gospel. And so today that's exactly

00:00:49.080 what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about dating apps. We're going to talk about

00:00:52.840 purity culture. We're going to talk about what the church and the world get right and wrong

00:00:56.780 about dating and how you can do it in a way that is glorifying to God. And so I'm just super excited

00:01:04.400 for you to hear from him. He is an awesome person that has personally had a big impact on me. I

00:01:12.060 attended the church that he was the singles pastor of several years ago when I was in college. And

00:01:19.580 he's just an amazing dynamic communicator of the gospel who God used in my own life to strengthen

00:01:25.660 my own faith and my understanding and love for scripture. And so I'm just very excited if you

00:01:30.800 don't know who he is to introduce you to him. So without further ado, here is JP.

00:01:40.860 JP, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who may not know who you are and what

00:01:46.120 you do? Yes, I'm Jonathan Pakluda, JP for short. And I guess for 12 years, I worked at a church in

00:01:53.800 Dallas called Watermark and led a ministry called The Porch to Young Adults. And so I had the privilege

00:01:58.180 of watching that ministry grow from about 150 people to 4,000 there, but really 10,000 watching

00:02:06.320 20 campuses around the country and then another large online audience. And that was just God

00:02:12.780 showing off. And then two years ago, we left Dallas to pastor a church. I pastor a church here in Waco,

00:02:19.200 Texas. And so 145-year-old Baptist church that we've kind of taken the baton on and continuing

00:02:26.920 to build the kingdom and advance the gospel. You talk a lot and have talked a lot for as long as

00:02:31.740 I followed you. I went to The Porch in college, which was a long time ago now. And you have always

00:02:38.180 talked very effectively and I think uniquely about how the gospel informs our relationships, particularly

00:02:43.960 singleness and how we should date with intention. And you just wrote a book about that called

00:02:50.380 Outdated. Can you just talk a little bit about that, kind of why this is something that you're

00:02:55.640 passionate about and why you kind of have spent a lot of your ministry focusing on this subject?

00:03:01.680 Yeah, well, I've become a pastor, Allie, because I wanted to help people. And so when you have a

00:03:06.300 front row seat to watch tens of thousands of young adults, predominantly single, make choices,

00:03:12.020 and you see some of the choices that they make lead to death and some of the choices that they

00:03:15.880 make lead to life. And then you begin to, as a pastor, as a Bible teacher, you're reading the

00:03:21.100 scriptures and you're seeing, oh, wow, these texts that are thousands of years old speak into how we

00:03:28.940 should find and build and commit to relationships in the 21st century. And you start writing down

00:03:37.180 patterns, ministries, pattern recognition. So you document those patterns, you see how the

00:03:42.900 scriptures speak into those patterns, or at least forecast those patterns. And then as you sit down

00:03:48.380 with people, you realize it's helpful. And so I don't care about writing books. I don't care much

00:03:53.820 about doing podcasts, except for how they help people. And so at the end of the day, if you cut me,

00:03:59.120 what I bleed is, I want to help people know Jesus. You know, kind of my life mission is I want to help

00:04:03.640 everyone follow Jesus by engaging the lost, equipping the saints, and empowering members

00:04:08.440 for service. And what I've done, my history, my journey has given me a unique perspective and voice

00:04:14.260 into the topic of singleness, dating, and relationships. And some of that's because of

00:04:19.720 the way that I did it wrong. And so I became a Christian in my early 20s. And that's really after

00:04:24.340 going to church my entire life, being exposed to different denominations, being involved with

00:04:29.420 different denominations, but really surrendered my life to Jesus 18 years ago. And so that's,

00:04:35.500 that's kind of a part of how this book was born. Yeah, I know your testimony. And I'm sure a lot

00:04:40.480 of people listening or watching do too. But can you kind of just give a quick overview of how you came

00:04:45.740 to Christ? Sure. Yeah, I was raised in a small town, South Texas, 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere.

00:04:52.060 And I, you know, my dad was Catholic, my mom was Lutheran, they stayed married, but went to separate

00:04:58.220 churches every Sunday. And I was Catholic, because I would, they made this deal, if I was a girl,

00:05:03.960 I would be Lutheran, if I was a boy, I'd be Catholic. So I went to Catholic school for nine years,

00:05:08.780 and really was had an identity crisis, which is a lot of youth. But for me, like I, I was involved

00:05:14.940 in agricultural programs, and I had both my ears pierced, first tattoo at 14, did drugs, sold drugs,

00:05:22.040 drove a 1979 Mercedes Benz, with hydraulics, said Superfly on the back. And, you know, wasn't didn't

00:05:29.200 wasn't great at school. And so went to this two year technical college studied art, got the most

00:05:34.000 worthless degree that you can imagine. And I was at a club, I was kind of everything wrong with Dallas

00:05:39.500 in a person. So was pretentious, I want to be a millionaire before I was 30, was just driven in

00:05:44.640 the world. And I was at a club 18 years ago, and someone invited me to church. And I went and I sat in the

00:05:50.300 back row hung over, smelled like smoke from the night before. And I began to wrestle with this

00:05:54.540 idea that I've always said that I believed in God, I always said that I knew Jesus. But I was just like,

00:05:59.860 gosh, I've never made a real decision based on this. Like, I've always done what I wanted to do.

00:06:04.960 I bought what I wanted to buy, I dated who I wanted to date, I did what I wanted to do

00:06:08.640 when we were on that date. And so my life was marked by a lot of sexual sin, addiction, pornography.

00:06:14.940 And I realized like, man, if I'm going to die, and there's a heaven, and there's a hell,

00:06:18.640 and like the way that you get to, I need to figure this out. And I really started that journey

00:06:23.640 with a bias against Christianity. So I thought, what are the odds I'd be born to the right country

00:06:28.640 with the right religion? So I looked at the Hindu faith, the Buddhist faith, the Jewish faith,

00:06:33.000 Islamic faith, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Christian Science, Scientology. And I started this

00:06:39.180 journey. And I kept tripping over this man who reset the calendar 2021 years ago, that somehow,

00:06:49.620 this baby born in Bethlehem, a town that I wouldn't know of, except he was born there,

00:06:54.320 and lived in Nazareth as a carpenter, another city that I would not be aware of, except he lived there,

00:07:00.060 like somehow he became the single most polarizing character in the history of history.

00:07:03.880 And I realized it's because he's the one that died and showed back up. And I'm like, man,

00:07:09.360 if this guy can defeat death, and then I need to really take an interest. And I realized that the

00:07:14.480 reason that he died was to pay for my sins. And it was so that I could have a relationship with the

00:07:21.260 Creator God. And I placed my faith in that, and everything began to radically change in my life.

00:07:26.220 What I did for fun changed, who I hung out with changed, where I went, how I was entertained,

00:07:31.120 how I spent money, and ultimately what I did all changed.

00:07:35.000 And tell me how that gospel affects how people date. Because maybe people are listening,

00:07:41.560 they're like, I'm on board with you there. But really, what does that have to do with pornography?

00:07:47.040 What does that have to do with where you went and what you did and how you dated? Isn't it really

00:07:51.300 just about that God loves you? He wants you to do kind of what makes you happy? How does that

00:07:57.360 revelation that you had about Christianity change all of the things that you just talked about?

00:08:02.440 Yeah, that is definitely one of the lies that I take on in the book. And so what you see in the

00:08:06.420 spirit of this air is to follow your heart. And so do whatever feels good. It's actually a satanic

00:08:11.900 message. And so the mantra of the satanic Bible is do as I will. And really, we don't understand as

00:08:18.240 young adults, or many young adults are actually living according to the satanic Bible,

00:08:22.160 not the Christian Bible. When we hear messages like, follow our feeling, follow our arrow,

00:08:29.100 do what feels right, follow your heart. And what I would say is it begins with Genesis 1 and 2,

00:08:36.440 this idea that God created us. He's a creator. He created us with a purpose. And He formed this

00:08:43.980 union of marriage. It was His idea. He didn't have to do that. He made us male and female.

00:08:49.480 We live in a very sexualized culture. And so I think at the end of the day, a person who's seeking

00:08:57.360 to date is really in the world, I'll say this, they're pursuing sexual pleasure. They're looking

00:09:03.260 for a sexual outlet. Well, we need to understand that God made sex. It was His idea. He made the

00:09:08.340 parts. He made them work with the way they do. He made them create life. That was His genius invention.

00:09:15.700 That was the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit coming together saying, hey, this is how this could work.

00:09:20.640 It's going to be beautiful. And in His kindness, He made it feel good. He put pleasure to it so that

00:09:27.420 we would want to procreate and bring forth children and so that a husband would be bonded to his wife.

00:09:35.680 And I say all of that. It's a strange answer to your question, because

00:09:38.520 to date for the purpose of marriage. So if marriage is the assignment and dating is how I find a partner

00:09:47.080 in the assignment, then I have to understand the assignment, Allie. Like in ninth grade anatomy class,

00:09:54.640 I needed to choose a partner for a project and I desperately needed to make an A in this class.

00:09:59.840 And so I chose, I'm going to call her Kelly. I changed her name. I chose Kelly because I was

00:10:06.760 really attracted to her and I wanted to spend time with her. And the assignment then was we were going

00:10:12.700 to dissect a frog and Kelly didn't want to touch the frog. And so this, I chose very poorly because

00:10:18.220 my partner didn't want anything to do with this assignment. I didn't consider the assignment when I

00:10:23.180 was looking for a partner. And so if we're looking for a partner in marriage, a partner in life,

00:10:27.540 we have to understand what the assignment is. And then once I understand the assignment,

00:10:33.140 then I can say, all right, how do I quickly and effectively find a partner suitable for that

00:10:37.700 assignment? And that is the modern phenomenon of dating, because dating is a modern phenomenon.

00:10:42.160 It's not in the Bible, much like the iPhone's not in the Bible, much like the internet's not in the

00:10:46.740 Bible. It was a word that was born into the English language about 120 years ago. And so I think

00:10:54.840 if we date however we want for fun, it often leads to misery, anxiety, and broken hearts.

00:11:02.120 But if we date intentionally for marriage, a path that leads to a promise, then I think people who

00:11:09.280 do it that way are better off. They set themselves up for greater success.

00:11:14.360 So that kind of covers how the world often gets dating wrong. What do you think are some

00:11:19.280 misconceptions or mistakes people inside the church make when it comes to dating or how we

00:11:25.820 regard or talk about marriage? Yeah, first and foremost, I think we, and this is just where I

00:11:31.920 would ask the forgiveness of your single audience. I think the church has missed it. And so as a pastor,

00:11:40.480 a representative of a local church, I apologize on behalf of the Big C Church, and just say,

00:11:45.460 I believe that we have incorrectly elevated marriage above singleness. And, you know, you

00:11:53.160 go to church, you're going to hear messages probably 10 to 1 or 7 to 1 on marriage versus

00:11:58.900 singleness. And singleness is a high calling in the scripture. In 1 Corinthians chapter 7, verse 7,

00:12:04.160 Paul calls it a gift. He says, I wish you were as I am, which is single. But really, he's plagiarizing

00:12:08.780 the words of Jesus in Matthew chapter 19, where Jesus says, this is a lesser known verse, but Jesus says,

00:12:14.820 there are some who are celibate for the sake of the kingdom. Not everyone can accept it, but those

00:12:20.940 who can should. By the way, Jesus was also single. He's the most complete human that has ever lived.

00:12:27.380 He's not incomplete. So this Jerry Maguire theology is off that we need someone to complete us. We are

00:12:32.960 complete human being, not looking for a soulmate. But if we desire marriage, we're looking for a

00:12:39.260 ministry partner. And so I think the church has said silly things like, well, you just know when you

00:12:43.960 know. And, you know, even it can be a little bit that environment where it puts pressure on people

00:12:53.060 to find a spouse. It makes you feel lesser than if you don't have one. You know, the divorce rate in

00:12:58.540 the church is equally as high as it is outside the church. And so that makes me believe that universally,

00:13:07.060 we're not teaching correctly on divorce, marriage, and remarriage.

00:13:11.480 There's a lot that I want to ask you within that answer, but something that you said

00:13:15.860 immediately piqued my interest because it's something that I've said before and that I guess

00:13:20.580 I believe, but I'm so interested to hear your take on it. When you know, you know. I mean,

00:13:26.000 I think about my own experience. I, you know, dated a guy for a long time in college who was a believer

00:13:32.120 and everything on paper was great. And if we had ended up getting married, it would have been a

00:13:37.640 God-glorifying thing. But there was just something inside me and something inside both of us that

00:13:42.580 just said, you know, we've been dating for three years. We should be looking towards marriage,

00:13:48.120 but there's something that just isn't right. Like, it's just not right. And then, of course,

00:13:53.500 I met my husband and it just was immediate. I just felt like I knew before we even really started

00:13:59.900 dating that, okay, this is right. Um, and so I guess I'm wondering your, your take on that.

00:14:07.420 Like, what is that? Like, what is that feeling that sometimes you have, even when you're dating

00:14:12.720 a believer who should be a suitable mate for you and who could be, but it's just like, you know,

00:14:17.340 I just don't think this is right. Is there any credibility to that?

00:14:21.540 You said there's something there with the first guy you're talking about, the one you didn't marry.

00:14:25.380 Uh, what do you think that was that thing that wasn't there? What do you think? What would,

00:14:31.060 Oh, I think, I think it had to do with, I think it had to do with personalities. I think at the end

00:14:35.060 of the day, like we didn't totally click, like we didn't really make each other laugh and we didn't,

00:14:42.260 um, and that sounds superficial, but it was just that everything should be right. And everything was

00:14:48.000 right on paper coming from believing families, both being believers, having generally the same

00:14:52.680 interests. But at the end of the day, we just didn't have that thing of, yeah, I really want

00:14:59.080 to spend the rest of my life with you. And that's what, you know, what I felt with my husband, but I

00:15:04.680 don't know, is that putting too much stock in feelings? No, well, yeah. So it's, it's, it's going

00:15:10.160 to be helpful to people, I believe, because you asked me where the church misses it. And I'll say

00:15:15.720 the church misses it in that we notoriously overstate things. And so when I say you shouldn't follow

00:15:20.980 your feelings, uh, your listeners might hear like, Hey, your feelings are irrelevant. And that's not

00:15:27.080 what I'm saying. Feelings have a place. They're just not, uh, in the world. I think the temptation

00:15:32.600 is to put them as the primary, most important. That's what we need to consider before all things

00:15:38.640 place. And, and that's not where they go. That's, that's what we do with attraction as well. And so as

00:15:44.500 you, you started that alley saying, you know, I could have, we were both God fearing people,

00:15:49.440 Christian people, we could have gotten married and it could have worked and who knows, right?

00:15:54.960 People change. And I, this is a weird place to go, but, uh, uh, but maybe you would have married him

00:16:01.260 and maybe he would have taken a comedy class, you know, just for the record, just for the record,

00:16:08.020 for my husband, listening to this, for everyone listening to this, I'm really glad that I ended up

00:16:13.260 with the person that I did. I am, I am super glad as well. And so I'll, I'll personalize it for me.

00:16:20.660 Right. I, I, could I have married somebody before I dated Monica and it had worked and people change.

00:16:26.720 So like maybe they would have become this most perfect person for me. Compatibility has a place,

00:16:33.520 but it's not very, it's not nearly as important as complimenting one another, you know, strengths and

00:16:39.180 weaknesses as you partner in ministry together. Um, I, I think you, I think preference has a place.

00:16:45.540 It's just not first place. So at the end of the day, when everything's there, I don't think you

00:16:50.560 have to feel pressure to say, gosh, I should marry this person because they check all the boxes. So we,

00:16:56.940 we should go to the aisle. I think you're fine to say, you know what, there's, there's something,

00:17:00.880 there's a check in my spirit. I don't know if it's the Holy spirit. I don't know if it's in the

00:17:04.400 category of preferences. Often we can't, we can't divide that in our hearts. We can't,

00:17:08.820 you know, it doesn't make sense, but nobody needs to feel the pressure to be a martyr and say, Hey,

00:17:13.360 I'm just going to take one for the team and, you know, marry someone that I don't really love.

00:17:17.640 And I don't, because we have to be able to cherish each other. And my point is in saying so

00:17:24.180 much of what I say in outdated is there's going to be a time in everyone's life that you don't feel

00:17:29.880 like cherishing your, your partner. You don't feel like loving them. You don't feel in love with them.

00:17:34.360 And that's where that commitment has to carry us through those feelings. And as when we're dating

00:17:40.300 someone, we do have a choice to make, like it's not marriage and a breakup is not divorce. And so

00:17:47.000 we can sit there and say, do I want to do this? And that's not a sinful question, right? It's just,

00:17:52.980 it's wrong. It can become wrong when our wants drive everything we do, when we follow our feelings

00:17:59.460 and we follow our flesh and everything, because what that does is it leads us in and out of

00:18:04.380 relationships. And we look in the rear view mirror and we realized, you know, we've dated

00:18:08.240 12 different people. They've all been great people. We're the common denominator. Why can't

00:18:13.420 I make it work? And you kind of get this, you can get this weird, weird headspace where I think

00:18:18.580 rather than, Hey, you just know, when you know, there's nothing in the world that we look for that

00:18:25.960 way. Right. Like my, my wife, when she sends me to the grocery store for milk, she's real specific

00:18:32.440 because she knows I'll just get the generic cheap stuff. And so she's, she says, you know,

00:18:37.700 I want you to get the organic 2% gallon, blue label, blue cap brand. Like she says, the branches,

00:18:43.120 I want you to get this milk. And she says that parenthetically next to milk. And it's like this

00:18:47.240 milk. And so I'm walking down the milk aisle. And when I see that milk, I don't like open the door

00:18:54.640 and think, okay, how do I, you know, do we have chemistry? Like which one? No, I say it's a

00:19:00.040 celebration. Cause it's like, Oh, I found it. I found the one that matches the description,

00:19:04.320 you know? And, and I think we need to think about marriage and dating more that way. And you say,

00:19:13.160 well, do feelings have a place? I would say, absolutely. They do just not first place.

00:19:17.720 Right. Right. And, and attraction, you know, what the scripture says is charm is deceitful

00:19:22.600 and beauty is fleeting, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. And so we have to

00:19:27.400 reprioritize, you know, our list, the things that we're looking for. And if we know what we're looking

00:19:32.420 for, you can only find what you're looking for. If you know what you're looking for.

00:19:36.260 Right. So you're saying that feelings have a place, but they can't be, they can't be the only

00:19:43.680 thing. And they can't be the first thing because you could be looking for that milk and it could

00:19:47.460 feel right. Or maybe the milk looks really good and it looks like it's going to be great. Or you

00:19:52.520 just have a hankering for whole milk. But if it doesn't fit the description, ultimately it's not

00:19:58.360 going to work because it's not going to be what you were supposed to get. And I remember there were

00:20:04.220 times in college having conversations with my friends, either I was saying this, or they were saying

00:20:08.340 this, talking about a particular, you know, guy that you were dating or seeing or whatever it was

00:20:15.000 and saying, you know, I know he's not a Christian or I know that we're doing the wrong things. I know

00:20:20.080 we're going too far or I know I'm drinking too much, but I just don't feel convicted. So it must be

00:20:25.280 fine. I think that is an example of how following our feelings and categorizing them as what the Holy

00:20:34.480 Spirit condones or doesn't condone rather than going to the Word of God and rather than looking

00:20:38.880 to the standards that He has set for us. That's an example of the consequences of doing that.

00:20:44.040 And if you do that within dating and then potentially marry that person, the consequences

00:20:49.940 are going to be very long-lasting, correct?

00:20:53.700 A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, in pastoral ministry, we see that all the time.

00:20:58.340 Someone says, you know, I'm doing this. I'm like, hey, but it goes against the Word of God. And they

00:21:02.160 say, well, I don't feel convicted. I say, okay, well, that could mean a number of things. It could

00:21:06.920 mean, one, you're not a believer. You don't have the Holy Spirit. And so therefore, the Holy Spirit

00:21:11.280 is not convicting you. I hope it doesn't mean that. So if it does, let me share the gospel.

00:21:15.780 Two, it could mean you've seared your conscience or you've quenched the Holy Spirit. You're so given to

00:21:22.000 this sin that you're listening more to your feelings than you can hear the Holy Spirit.

00:21:28.760 Uh, and then, and then three, it can mean that, that, um, that you're, you're just, it's kind

00:21:34.860 of a, just another variation of two that you're so deep in it that you've given yourself to it,

00:21:40.060 that you just have been lost in the emotion. And I think as we talk about love, that's a big one

00:21:44.220 because I, you know, so often when, when our heart drifts towards somebody, all reason and logic

00:21:51.220 goes out the window and we're ready to justify. And I mean, I have seen relationships. I have seen

00:21:56.140 boy meet girl tear a family apart because mom and dad are jumping up, waving their arms saying,

00:22:01.680 he's not good for you. Right. And, and she says, but I love him. And then next thing, you know,

00:22:07.920 I mean, the whole family's torn apart. I see it all the time.

00:22:11.000 Right. Right. Can you talk about, um, purity culture? That is a contentious term nowadays. There's

00:22:18.800 pushback against what has traditionally been known, um, as purity culture, I would say within the

00:22:25.200 church, even outside of the church as something that is hyper-legalistic, something that doesn't

00:22:29.840 talk about sex in the right way. What would you say is the proper understanding of purity and then

00:22:36.080 where you see Christians get this wrong on one end of the spectrum or another?

00:22:41.820 Yeah. I think, you know, we love to throw the word culture after anything. And, and I think it can

00:22:48.920 be, it can be sensational at that point. And then it opens it up for criticism. Someone told me the

00:22:55.260 other day that, uh, I propagate rape culture because I preach purity. Right. And I'm just,

00:23:03.360 and I'm like, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what? Like that feels like a, that's satanic. I just,

00:23:11.720 I'm going to go on record and say that is satanic. Right. Uh, God created sex. He's the inventor of

00:23:17.960 sex. Now keep in mind for any critic of this, that I am a guy who was completely lost in the world.

00:23:27.600 Um, I, I have done this very much the wrong way and I have found life in doing it God's way. And I'm

00:23:38.220 not naive. I'm, I'm not under the influence of anything right now. I'm, I'm completely sober

00:23:42.660 minded and saying, Hey, I have found life in pursuing Jesus Christ and, and trying to understand

00:23:50.380 his desire for my life and really putting to death the desires of my flesh. That is to say,

00:23:56.140 not doing everything that I want to do, but to ask God, what do you want for me and pursue that?

00:24:02.440 And so what I, it's just a, it's a theology. It's a worldview. It's a right understanding

00:24:06.820 that we have these bodies on loan. And in first Corinthians six, he says, um, flee sexual

00:24:13.420 immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sends sexually sins

00:24:18.700 against their own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy spirit who is in you

00:24:22.760 whom you've received from God, you are not your own. You've been bought by a price. Therefore,

00:24:26.440 honor God with your body. And so, you know, Monica and I, we had this bounce house. Okay. So we bought

00:24:32.800 the kids a bounce house and it was more than we would normally spend on a gift for them,

00:24:35.740 but we got it thinking, you know what, we're going to lend it freely to people. So when they have

00:24:39.940 bound, when they have birthday parties and whatnot, we're going to let them borrow the bounce house.

00:24:42.940 But when they would borrow it, borrow it, Ali, I'd give them some, some rules. I would just say,

00:24:47.260 Hey, please, you know, no more than four kids at a time. Please make sure you stake it in the

00:24:51.680 ground. Please make sure you hook it up correctly. Um, because it's, it's valuable. It's expensive.

00:24:56.440 And, and I don't want you to ruin it. I want to be able to continue to lend it freely to other

00:25:00.200 people. And the reason I told them how to handle our bounce house is because it's my bounce house,

00:25:06.500 you know, and I, and because it's mine, I get to determine how I want someone to treat it.

00:25:12.100 And what God is saying in first Corinthians six is our body belongs to him and he's giving us the rules.

00:25:19.580 And I'm, I'm tired. Like the passion you hear in my voice as someone in pastoral ministry,

00:25:25.640 like I'm tired of people crying themselves to sleep. Like I'm tired of people being

00:25:31.100 overwhelmed with anxiety. I'm tired of people fighting, you know, the church saying we can do

00:25:37.120 whatever we want. And then finding them now I've been married six times and I don't understand what

00:25:41.800 I'm doing wrong. And it's because you've been doing whatever you want instead of saying, all right,

00:25:47.080 Lord, you, you invented sex, you and made the parts, you, you, you gave us the institution of

00:25:53.320 marriage. You know, you, you've given us instruction. What do you want us to do? How

00:25:59.040 can we honor you? And if honoring you means not doing every little pursuit of pleasure that I want

00:26:07.360 in the moment, I'm, I'm willing to offer my body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to you.

00:26:12.460 That's Romans 12, one and two. And it's just, I'm just telling you, I'm, I'm a guy who has

00:26:18.540 had a lot of fun in the world. And I'm telling you, I found something better in Jesus, in the Bible,

00:26:27.260 in God's instruction, and in what he desires for us, especially as it pertains to sexuality,

00:26:34.240 dating and marriage. And that's the heart behind this book. And if it's anything,

00:26:38.680 I just pray that it's helpful to those who read it.

00:26:50.440 What do you say about, this is a question I get a lot. And honestly, I got married before

00:26:54.340 this was really popular, but what do you say to dating apps? Is that something that

00:27:00.480 Christians should engage in? Is there a way to use them in a way that's glorifying to God,

00:27:05.260 or should they avoid them altogether? Yeah, I think they're here to stay. And I think there's,

00:27:11.780 you know, there's a good chance that, um, I'll just say our children's friends will find their

00:27:22.080 spouse through technology, right? I think that's a good possibility, not, you know, objection,

00:27:27.440 your honor, speculation, absolutely speculation, but I think they're here to stay. And so we have to

00:27:34.280 put wisdom parameters around them like everything else. And so the Bible doesn't speak into dating

00:27:38.400 apps. I'm a simple guy. I'm firm where the scripture's firm. I'm flexible where it's

00:27:41.940 flexible. And so I look at the verses and I say, all right, where, where does it, where does it,

00:27:47.840 what does it speak into as it relates to this? And so here's some wisdom principles that are just

00:27:51.960 practical. I think one, you have to understand profiles lie. And so I don't care if they know that

00:27:59.760 Greek and Hebrew, and they've memorized the new Testament and, you know, and they're telling you

00:28:05.140 all of these things like profiles lie and people will con you online. And you almost, you need to

00:28:11.080 approach it with a healthy level of skepticism. And I hate that because I want to be an optimist,

00:28:15.880 but when it comes to anything online, you need to be in a healthy way, skeptical too. And this is the

00:28:22.600 one that most people lean in on and ask questions is I would just say to our friends, never date a

00:28:28.400 stranger. And so you say, well, that kind of defeats the purpose of the dating app. I'm like, well,

00:28:33.040 not all dating apps are created equal. I mean, some of them are blatant hookup apps. I would avoid

00:28:38.880 those altogether. There are some Christian dating apps that will kind of show you your network.

00:28:44.360 They'll show you friends you have in common. And so there, that's where I would call and say,

00:28:48.540 all right, Hey, is he a good guy? Like, do you know, like, what's his reputation? Is he involved

00:28:52.680 in church? Is he serving somewhere? You know, is he, is he handled authority well? And, and I would

00:28:59.220 ask that, you know, long before I'm sitting at a dinner table with him. And so people will ask me

00:29:04.480 on, on Friday, I take, you know, questions and people ask me, well, Hey, what question should I ask

00:29:11.300 on a first date to find out if they're a believer? And I'm just like, no, you want to know if

00:29:16.260 they're following Jesus before you're sitting at a table with them trying to find out if they would

00:29:22.020 make a suitable spouse. Right. There's a lot of women that feel very hopeless. They've done the

00:29:29.340 dating app thing or they're involved in church and they're, you know, they go to work and they feel

00:29:35.040 like they're doing all the things that they can possibly do to meet someone. And they just feel like

00:29:40.080 there are no good guys out there or they just feel like the dating field is empty. And they feel

00:29:47.480 like maybe in the church, like they're, they're not finding the kind of fellowship, like platonic,

00:29:54.720 even friendship being cultivated that they need to kind of be satisfied in their relational bucket.

00:30:01.140 And they just feel lonely, especially after this past year. And they kind of feel desperate and

00:30:06.680 destitute. What's the encouragement? What's the advice that you give these people who want to be

00:30:11.660 married? They want to have families. They just don't think it's in the cards for them anymore

00:30:15.820 because they think that the playing field is empty. There are no more good fishes in the sea.

00:30:22.740 Yeah. I think that it's a growing problem. As our culture becomes more and more secular,

00:30:34.200 this issue will only get bigger. And so I start there because I think foundationally as followers

00:30:42.800 of Jesus, we have to live with a biblical worldview. We need to advance the gospel. We need to focus on

00:30:49.020 building the kingdom and serving. I said earlier that singleness is a gift. And so regardless of

00:30:55.000 whether you feel like it's a gift or not, if you're single, you have the gift today. And so use the gift

00:31:00.000 to further the kingdom. That's Jesus's point in Matthew 19 and Paul's in 1 Corinthians 7. So I

00:31:05.560 would start there. Secondly, I'm going to say two things that will potentially contradict each other.

00:31:11.520 The first one is I see every now and then girls get real angsty guys too, angsty at the church,

00:31:19.600 like the local body, like the specific church, because they're not doing their part to help them

00:31:25.860 find a spouse. And so in that, I would say it's not the church's job to find you a spouse. Like

00:31:31.440 I understand that. And so like you want to put that angst in check. The contradiction to that is

00:31:36.560 the church is the people. So not the 501c3, but the people. And I do think the people can help you

00:31:43.960 find a spouse. And so as my friends would say, you know, it's like, let your married friends know

00:31:48.400 that you desire marriage if you do. And that's not an act of desperation. Like that's beautiful.

00:31:54.140 I see that in the scripture in Song of Solomon chapter one, verse four, it says their friends

00:31:58.160 and family praise their love more than wine. That is to say more than the party, more than the

00:32:02.840 celebration that people came together, looked at what they had and said, we agree, like this is of

00:32:07.860 God. And so it would encourage Monica and I tremendously if somebody came to us and said,

00:32:13.120 Hey, I just want you to know I'm looking for a husband. You know, can you help me? Do you have

00:32:16.820 anybody in mind? And, and so it's, that's fine. Like you should do that in that way.

00:32:22.860 Rely on the church, rely on the relationships that you have and then don't lose. And this is

00:32:30.220 the one that I know this is easier said than done. So I'm just going to say that up front,

00:32:34.760 but don't lose hope in eternal life. Like the conversation that's never happened is no one's

00:32:43.220 gotten to heaven and said, yeah, what was up, man? You kept me single down there. What were you

00:32:48.280 thinking? Like, what were you doing? Why, why did you, would you, you know, that's not the

00:32:52.000 conversation you're going to have with God. He's going to say, Hey, well done, good and faithful

00:32:54.880 servant. He's going to say, Hey, you're now married to the bridegroom of Jesus Christ forever and ever

00:33:00.060 and ever and ever. You get to experience pleasure forevermore in, in his kingdom and paradise. And so

00:33:05.880 don't think that we have to experience everything there is to experience here. Now, I know that for the

00:33:14.080 young woman listening that feels called to be a mom that just really wants that companionship,

00:33:20.300 but that's, that's extremely difficult. And so I would say, you know, it's, it's okay to desire

00:33:25.780 marriage. That's not sin to desire marriage. But when you take that desire and you begin to feed it

00:33:32.180 and obsess about it and you're driving down the road and you're feeding those thoughts and that desire

00:33:36.160 grows to an obsession and you start to get angry at God because you feel like he's withholding

00:33:41.400 good from you, that's when it can become sin. And so you want to keep that in check.

00:33:47.460 And, uh, and then lastly, and you address this alley, but I think it's worth just kind of

00:33:52.100 doubling down on is make sure you're hanging out in, in places where God fearing single people are

00:33:58.180 hanging out. And that's not a magic bullet, but it is a great step to take. That doesn't mean if you

00:34:04.060 do that, that you're for sure going to find a husband or a wife, but it does help your odds a little

00:34:10.260 bit, you know? And so let people know you're looking, hang out where single people who love

00:34:14.820 Jesus are hanging out. Make sure you, you check your heart and that you're not growing angry at

00:34:19.340 God because you feel like he's withholding a good from you and then just get busy building the kingdom,

00:34:24.820 you know, and, and sharing the gospel. Don't waste your singleness.

00:34:28.340 Definitely. I think that last part is so important that, uh, sometimes we regard singleness as kind of

00:34:33.820 like this waiting room and our life isn't going to start until we get married and have kids.

00:34:38.860 I totally understand that mentality, but I think Satan can kind of use that to keep you complacent,

00:34:45.260 to keep you apathetic about, like you said, building the kingdom because you think that you

00:34:49.820 can't be a real Christian or you can't be complete Jerry Maguire theology until you actually get

00:34:55.880 married. And that's not true. If, like you said, Jesus was the most complete, holiest, you know,

00:35:01.820 man, God, man, um, then it's just not true that you are incomplete or you are inadequate or you

00:35:09.540 have to wait to glorify God until you find a spouse. God is calling you to do that and equipping

00:35:15.260 you to do that right now. Correct. That's right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you so much for

00:35:20.660 taking the time to talk to us. This was very edifying. Can you tell everyone again, name of

00:35:24.960 your book, where they can get it, how they can follow you? Yeah. So the book is outdated. It's

00:35:30.460 subtitled, find love that lasts when dating has changed and you can find it everywhere books are

00:35:35.620 sold, whether that's Amazon or you want to walk into a bookstore, uh, it will be there. And my name

00:35:41.660 is JP and you can follow me at Jay Pakluda on Instagram, Jonathan Pakluda on Facebook, but thanks so

00:35:47.680 much, Alibeth. I'm grateful for you and grateful for your ministry. Thank you. Thank you so much.

00:35:54.960 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 19, 2021

Ep 405 ｜ Glorifying God Through Singleness & Dating ｜ Guest： Jonathan Pokluda

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