Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 406 ｜ Moral Order AND Social Justice？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Today, I'm really excited for you to listen to this conversation

00:00:13.980 between me and someone who identifies as a Democrat, a fellow Christian, but we've got

00:00:18.940 disagreements politically and ideologically, and that is Justin Giboney of the AND Campaign.

00:00:25.720 We're going to talk about social justice. We're going to talk about some of the flaws in some of

00:00:31.640 the good parts of both parties and both sides of the aisle, and talk about some solutions. How can

00:00:36.760 we come together on the issues that really matter as biblical Christians? So without further ado,

00:00:43.160 here is Justin Giboney. Justin, thank you so much for joining me. Could you tell everyone who may

00:00:52.940 not know who you are and what you do? Yeah, I'm Justin Giboney. I'm an attorney,

00:00:57.520 political strategist, and I'm the president of the AND Campaign. The AND Campaign is a Christian

00:01:03.220 civic organization that's trying to raise civic literacy among Christians and also help Christians

00:01:08.620 apply their values to the issues of the day. We want Christians to be less ideological and partisan

00:01:14.300 and more Christian. And so that's what we do. And can you tell us your story a little bit of how you

00:01:22.080 got where you are? I know your story. I read a really good article about you and kind of where you

00:01:28.560 come from in the Gospel Coalition, but other people might not know. You do have a political background,

00:01:35.560 and that kind of led you to what you're doing now. So can you talk to us about that?

00:01:40.380 Yeah, sure. So once I graduated from law school, came down to Atlanta, and probably within the

00:01:47.500 maybe first four years that I was in Atlanta, just started getting involved in politics. I joined a

00:01:52.240 mayoral campaign and really went from, and it was great because I started from the bottom,

00:01:57.680 from knocking on doors, going door to door in southwest Atlanta to doing debate prep and working

00:02:05.740 with the city council and things of that nature. And so it was a really great experience. And I always

00:02:09.400 tell people, if you really want to get into politics and understand politics and understand

00:02:13.320 the people, grassroots people and others, you really want to do it. You want to be involved

00:02:18.100 in a campaign because you see so many elements of what goes into politics and you get to know the

00:02:23.340 city that you're in, the area that you're in and all that stuff. And so that's where I started,

00:02:26.680 really in a grassroots way, going door to door and then just learning and meeting the people and

00:02:32.120 learning how politics went. Because what a lot of people don't realize is there's intelligence and

00:02:37.560 then there's political smarts and you don't get political smarts just from reading books.

00:02:41.240 You really have to be out there and doing it. So that's where I started, started running campaigns.

00:02:46.300 You know, after, after that, I started running campaigns, was still practicing law, doing political

00:02:52.200 strategy and really just had some mentors that made me really be a part of the community that let me

00:02:58.680 know, you know, I could have all the degrees that I wanted, but there were certain things that I'd have

00:03:02.620 to learn about the community and really cut my teeth to be connected and a true kind of leader.

00:03:09.520 And you were in democratic politics, correct? That was a democratic mayoral campaign that you

00:03:15.180 helped out with. At what point did you say, okay, yes, I've worked with all of these democratic

00:03:20.740 campaigns. I guess you identified as a Democrat. At what point did you say, it's not all here. I need

00:03:27.420 to try to reach more bipartisan or nonpartisan solutions, especially in accordance with your

00:03:33.900 faith. Yeah. I mean, so I still identify as a Democrat, but it became very clear to me that

00:03:42.000 the pushback that was being received on issues such as, you know, because there are a lot of

00:03:46.220 biblical Christians. I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. There's a lot of biblical Christian churches and

00:03:49.740 biblical Christians in Atlanta, Georgia. But for some reason, even if you're in our neighborhoods,

00:03:54.960 when you run for office, you have to run like you're kind of like a midtown progressive,

00:03:59.640 and you have to kind of put away some of those biblical values, whether it be in regard to the

00:04:03.940 sanctity of life or the Christian sexual ethic. And I saw that happening over and over, and it just

00:04:08.560 made me really uncomfortable because, honestly, I thought it was disrespectful. I think people should

00:04:12.700 be able to represent who they are and their constituency and shouldn't have to change that

00:04:16.520 just to run for office. And so I started thinking about why that was and just realized that

00:04:22.660 in some of these progressive spaces, there just wasn't a lot of organization when it came to

00:04:30.460 how Christians did politics outside of what was already kind of progressive politics. So we did,

00:04:37.080 we got out the vote, we did those things. But I thought we should take the time to really

00:04:41.340 put forward some of our values that differ with the secular progressive perspective.

00:04:46.220 So I ended up running for the Democratic National Convention in 2012, one that ran with a great

00:04:53.520 group of people. And just a lot of things happened there that I realized that even more so that the

00:04:59.480 secular progressive perspective was not the traditional kind of black church perspective

00:05:03.780 that I came from and where a lot of folks who are in the party come from. Went back home and was

00:05:08.720 like, man, I really need to do something about this. I can't stay in a party that doesn't represent me.

00:05:14.520 And instead of leaving, I decided to kind of organize and get some folks together who I knew

00:05:18.800 thought like I did. I created an organization called Crucifix in Politics, which was me and some

00:05:24.600 other political strategists, people who ran their county party and other folks who were running

00:05:29.540 campaigns like I was, and really got to the bottom of why all this was happening. That would

00:05:35.780 eventually turn into the AND campaign, which was not just a Democratic thing, but I also had friends

00:05:41.140 who were, you know, in Republican politics and thought that they, you know, felt like they

00:05:45.080 weren't able to be maybe as compassionate as they wanted to be with some of the Tea Party stuff that

00:05:49.820 was going on. And so that's when the AND campaign came together. It was a rejection of kind of the

00:05:56.280 false dichotomy that we see in our politics. Ran again for the Democratic National Convention in

00:06:00.840 2016, but this time I ran on a biblical platform. I didn't even say the name of the candidate who

00:06:07.800 I was supposedly a delegate for. I talked about the sanctity of life. I talked about jobs. I talked

00:06:12.900 about voter rights and ended up winning in John Lewis's district. I mean, overwhelmingly to be a

00:06:20.100 delegate again. And it just proved that that, you know, there are people who think that way, but unless

00:06:25.760 it's presented as an option by leaders, they're not going to know to go move forward with it.

00:06:31.660 And can you talk a little bit more about what that biblical platform was and is? I've read a lot of the

00:06:37.460 things that you've written, and you probably know this is a conservative podcast. I am like you,

00:06:43.260 except on the other side. I've always voted Republican. I consider myself a Republican.

00:06:48.320 There are things that the Republican Party does and does not do that I don't like. And honestly,

00:06:53.680 I find myself increasingly disenchanted with Washington, D.C. in general, but I am a conservative.

00:07:00.940 And that's why I'm so excited to hear your perspective, because I can't think of an issue that I am

00:07:05.300 progressive on at all. But you talk a lot about how it's important to have both, to have both sides

00:07:12.360 complement one another. So I want to hear from your perspective, like what is that biblical platform

00:07:17.240 in your view that has some progressive aspects of it and has some conservative aspects of it?

00:07:24.100 Sure. One of the things the ANN campaign talks about is the false dichotomy in our politics, where

00:07:29.900 people feel like if you're for justice, then you have to go to the left. If you're for moral order,

00:07:35.240 then you have to be conservative. You have to go to the right. But when I look in the Bible,

00:07:39.080 when I look in the gospel, I don't see that false dichotomy. I don't see Jesus choosing one or the

00:07:44.040 other. And that's where the ANN campaign comes from. It's both. It's justice and moral order. And in fact,

00:07:49.020 if you don't have justice, you don't have an orderly society. If your law and order is not just,

00:07:54.380 then it's not serving the purpose that it needs to be serving. And that's really what we say.

00:07:59.600 And so we want Christians not just to assume, based on whether something is a conservative

00:08:04.340 idea or progressive idea, that it's right or wrong, but to really be more biblical. I think

00:08:10.000 you can be very intellectually lazy to always be on the side of conservatives or always be on the side

00:08:15.960 of progressives. One thing I think conservatives have to deal with is an abject failure when it came

00:08:21.220 to civil rights, an abject failure when it came to a lot of different issues concerning people of

00:08:26.800 color. And explain that. Go into kind of some detail and examples on that, because a lot of people

00:08:32.960 may not know. Well, yeah, I mean, simply, I think that the white evangelical church during the civil

00:08:38.800 rights movement was not there. They certainly were not helpful in that, and in certain instances

00:08:44.820 perpetuated that. And so I think, you know, when someone says, you know, when you realize that

00:08:49.680 that was a huge mistake, and there's no group that hasn't made some errors, but that was a huge

00:08:53.980 mistake. How do you correct that? For example, like not standing against segregation and just kind

00:09:00.680 of opposing the civil rights movement in general? Yeah, opposing the civil rights movement. You know,

00:09:05.520 when Dr. King, you know, people talk about Dr. King, but the fact of the matter is he couldn't get

00:09:10.260 into a conservative seminary. They wouldn't let him in because of his color. These are things where the

00:09:17.100 church should have stood up, but they didn't stand up against Jim Crow. They didn't stand up against

00:09:21.660 redlining. And so many other things that have happened, the majority church in America did not

00:09:28.420 stand up against. And so what I'm saying is, not that we all have to go back and just cry forever

00:09:33.180 about that, but how do we correct that? And if we're trying to be conservative, are there places

00:09:39.500 where we could make similar mistakes like that again? And so what I tell people is not to be so

00:09:44.820 attached to the ideology, but really sound theology. I'm theologically conservative,

00:09:51.020 but I don't believe that's the exact same thing as being ideologically conservative. And I think

00:09:56.060 we conflate those things too often. Yeah. I think what scares me as a natural conservative

00:10:02.140 is using the government as, and you've probably heard this before, using the government as a vehicle

00:10:11.620 for big change. Not that the government doesn't have a role. I'm not a libertarian. I'm certainly

00:10:17.540 not an anarchist. I do believe that the government has a role. But typically, I think one reason why

00:10:25.040 conservatives start to kind of wince a little bit when we hear about, when we hear the words social

00:10:31.740 justice and things like that is that we worry that it just means the redistribution of wealth.

00:10:38.380 It just means more government power. It just means more government programs. And we can kind of look

00:10:45.080 at the history of that and see that a lot of those things have been very ineffective and don't actually

00:10:50.780 achieve the kind of correction of wrongs that we're looking for. And so what would you say to someone like

00:10:57.200 me who says, okay, you know, I agree. Those are really bad mistakes. And we do need to think of ways

00:11:01.820 and solutions to rectify those errors. But I'm worried about giving the government more power to

00:11:08.200 do that. And I don't know what exactly those solutions should should look like.

00:11:13.940 Well, I would say this, I'd give, you know, a little bit of credence to some of the stuff you

00:11:19.340 said, which is, I've worked in government, I know it can be cumbersome, I know it can be inefficient.

00:11:24.200 There are certain things that I don't want the government to do. But when I look at government

00:11:28.140 historically, especially from an African American perspective, I mean, the government has played a

00:11:33.340 huge role. And so, you know, it's hard to bring the federalism conversation to, you know, to a lot

00:11:39.380 of African Americans, I'm sure there are some. But when you talk about Jim Crow ending, when you talk

00:11:44.720 about slavery, when you talk about all those things, these are the government coming in to do things

00:11:48.780 that the church wasn't doing, and that some of the conservatives who don't like government still

00:11:54.100 aren't doing. And so I think a lot of poor people, because they have to deal with the government,

00:11:58.740 and they see how inefficient it is, they wish they didn't have to deal with it. Yeah. But when there's

00:12:03.540 no when that doesn't seem to be alternatives, ideally, yeah, the government wouldn't do those

00:12:08.800 things. I would like to have mediating institutions do more of those things. But when they don't do it,

00:12:13.920 that needs to be that kind of backstop needs to be there. And what are and what are those things?

00:12:18.580 Like, what are some progressive policies that you think would right some of the wrongs of Jim Crow

00:12:23.720 and the other historical discrimination that you've listed? That have already have or that can continue

00:12:29.780 to do that? Or that you advocate for that you think the Democratic Party or progressives do a better job

00:12:34.500 of advocating for or doing than the Republican Party and conservatives do? I mean, I think we have to

00:12:39.880 start with the fact I don't see any really any outreach at all from the conservatives or Republicans

00:12:44.820 at all. I don't I don't even see you mean going into those communities, going in the going into

00:12:51.020 those communities or dealing with those issues, because I think that the Republicans, I think

00:12:54.740 Republicans and conservatives have a wing of their party that would they would catch backlash for

00:13:00.020 really engaging on race issues at all. I mean, so you know, we can start from the point, you know,

00:13:05.380 we can say and I would agree with you that there are a lot of progressive programs that haven't been

00:13:10.160 great. But what are we comparing it to? We're comparing it to not much at all. And so that's I think

00:13:16.760 that's where the conversation needs to start from. I disagree with a lot of the ways that progressives

00:13:21.640 have gone about certain things. But the effort has been there and there have been programs that help

00:13:25.840 people. You know, you may not agree with, you know, food stamps, things of that nature. I do. I mean, I've

00:13:31.120 seen people in those positions. My father was raised, you know, in a situation where he had to be on

00:13:36.300 on that temporarily. And it helped his family out and help them survive. So it's not all perfect.

00:13:42.620 Sometimes there can be abuses there. But I think those type of programs where it comes to food,

00:13:47.340 when it comes to education, those can be very helpful and have been helpful in the past,

00:13:51.640 maybe not perfect. Yeah, but many of those wouldn't happen if we had to kind of depend on

00:13:55.820 conservatives to do it. And I agree with you. I'm not against I'm not against welfare in general,

00:14:02.880 not against food stamps in general. I think where conservatives come from, what someone like

00:14:07.120 Paul Ryan, who never accomplished this, and you know, Republicans and Democrats can talk a big

00:14:11.120 talk about a lot of things and then never do them. But Republicans have been talking a lot

00:14:14.700 about welfare reform. And you're probably very familiar, I'm guessing with with Thomas Sowell,

00:14:20.040 who also talks about this. I don't know if he is against welfare in general either. But he would say

00:14:25.580 that the welfare system as it's set up right now actually incentivizes in some cases,

00:14:30.900 is unemployment. I've talked to families that it's very hard for them to get off of government

00:14:35.180 assistance, because it's going to mean that they're actually poorer getting a job than staying

00:14:40.180 on government assistance. So you're in this very tough conundrum, where okay, you and your family

00:14:46.000 are actually making more money if you're on welfare, but you really want to provide for yourself.

00:14:50.360 Like you really you really want your own job. And I think I'm not saying that conservatives have

00:14:55.520 have presented the perfect solution for this. It almost seems like we're just in this gridlock,

00:15:00.400 though, because we don't just want welfare to expand. We don't want to keep presenting people

00:15:06.940 with that problem, who really want to provide for themselves. But the system is set up in a way

00:15:12.420 to where they're really disincentivized to do so that that's a big problem, in my opinion,

00:15:19.320 that progressives are not addressing and and maybe conservatives aren't addressing either. Would you agree?

00:15:24.780 Yeah, I mean, I think they're very, you know, there are ways that we can approach it. I think

00:15:30.160 you're right. There have been some incentives that are set up that are not helpful. And so when we talk

00:15:34.460 about welfare reform, I'm always very cautious because, you know, as they say, the devil is in

00:15:38.920 the details. What do we mean by that? Do we just mean cutting? Because I think a lot of people when they

00:15:43.440 hear conservatives, you know, fair or otherwise, talk about that, they think they're just talking about

00:15:48.080 a cut. And if we're just talking about a cut, then I don't think that's the place to start. I think

00:15:53.180 we should be smart about government. I think government shouldn't just be huge, but it can be

00:15:57.880 used in smart ways that that help people. And so, yeah, we just have to dig deeper into what that

00:16:04.200 reform would look like. But I'm open to those conversations because I do think there's some

00:16:07.860 adverse incentives that are in there that aren't helping people. But in general, the program is

00:16:12.860 helping people, from what I can see. I think it depends on, well, I think one problem with it is

00:16:18.700 that how some of these programs define success is how many people are on the programs, not how many

00:16:24.920 people get off the assistance. And I think that we probably need to redefine how we look at success.

00:16:30.200 To me, maybe as a conservative, but I don't know if this is an exclusively conservative position,

00:16:35.140 I would define success of a program, of a government program, by how many people can get off the

00:16:40.520 program and get a job and provide for their families. Is it pushing people towards what I

00:16:46.140 think most people want is providing for themselves and their families? Or is it just helping people

00:16:51.260 subsist? And I don't, yes, that's helpful to a degree, especially if you're someone who is

00:16:56.320 physically or mentally unable to have a job. But to me, that's not the definition of success. And so

00:17:03.080 I just don't see a whole lot of movement in that area. And I feel like when we talk about social

00:17:09.360 justice and racial justice, we're typically focusing on poverty, which is important, but I

00:17:15.720 don't see any advancement in that area. So when I hear, okay, we need more solutions, we need more.

00:17:21.360 And I just hear government program. I'm like, but there's so many problems with the government

00:17:25.540 programs that we have, and it seems to not be moving. We've had these programs for a very long

00:17:29.500 time. And so like, how do we, how do we get out of that gridlock and actually move forward in a way

00:17:35.300 that does help and rectify some of the problems of the past? Yeah, that's right. I'm with you on

00:17:40.820 that. I think one of the things is people detaching themselves from these narratives. One of the

00:17:45.460 biggest problems I think we have in our sociopolitical landscape is that on the left and the right,

00:17:50.580 we have these narratives and we just stick with them regardless of the facts, right? We have to make

00:17:55.820 sure that we're doing what you're asking, that we're examining these programs to make sure that

00:18:00.200 they're doing what they should be doing. And if we have the wrong objectives, we have the wrong goals,

00:18:04.320 then that needs to be examined too. But we can't do that in good faith. And part of the problem is

00:18:08.640 there's no trust. And so as a, as a Democrat, I think what some of the Democrats may be thinking

00:18:13.460 is if I do open this up for conversation with the, with the right, then they're just going to cut it.

00:18:18.500 And so I'm just going to hold to my narrative and say, this is all working out because I don't

00:18:22.460 have the trust that we can work on this in good faith without just trying to cut it out.

00:18:26.180 And so we got to find ways to work past that and work for the better of the people and just build

00:18:30.720 some trust. Cause that's why I think we can't get big things done.

00:18:33.400 And I think conservatives have the same trust issue. And if I talk about this,

00:18:37.780 they're just going to talk about expanding it. They're just going to talk about adding more

00:18:41.620 welfare, which also I don't think addresses the problems, the problems that are already there.

00:18:47.620 Let's talk about some of those big issues that people, conservatives like me just can't get

00:18:53.320 past when it comes to the current democratic party. And I know it's not all Democrats. For example,

00:18:58.340 you are theologically conservative. So you believe in the sanctity of life. We probably agree on the

00:19:02.560 same biblical sexual ethic when it comes to gender and marriage, but I don't see those. Well,

00:19:07.300 I don't see those things really championed by the Republican party very much either, but conservatives

00:19:11.000 certainly hold those things dear. But when I look over at progressives,

00:19:16.080 maybe it's just a caricature, but what I see is a complete denunciation of the sanctity of life,

00:19:21.560 a complete denunciation of biblical marriage and gender as totally bigoted. And that just makes me

00:19:29.900 feel like the other side hates me. And I can't even imagine voting for the party that represents

00:19:33.980 that. Can you tell me maybe where I'm wrong or where I'm seeing something that isn't true?

00:19:39.760 No, I mean, I've written about kind of the extremes that we've gone to on the democratic side of

00:19:45.440 things when it comes to those two issues. I'm not going to battle you and try to justify

00:19:49.160 the party on that. I don't, I don't care enough about the party to do that. And I think,

00:19:52.680 I think they're, they're wrong in that regard. I think one thing that you might want to consider

00:19:56.320 though, is how those issues got such a foothold and why, you know, why they, you know, why in

00:20:01.460 some ways they're, they're gaining momentum in some ways on the, on those issues. And I think it's

00:20:05.300 because Christians didn't have what I would call a whole life perspective. I think because in many

00:20:10.260 instances, Christians weren't as compassionate to people who had crisis pregnancies or people who

00:20:15.800 were LGBTQ, who really were looking for community, who were in our community, who are our neighbors and

00:20:20.680 our brothers and sisters and weren't responded to in a loving way. Not all the criticism of the right

00:20:26.200 in this regard or conservatives on this regard is fair. But I think, you know, within the church,

00:20:30.920 there's certainly things we could have done better to not give them a foothold here. And we need to

00:20:35.840 approach it in the, in a different way. So what I say in regards to the issues is that I agree with

00:20:39.900 you. The left has some real problems when it comes to this. I will continually fight against that.

00:20:44.520 Whether somebody I've been told that when I made my speech at the 2016 democratic, uh, DNC, uh,

00:20:50.520 selection that I had committed political suicide. Well, I'm going to continue to say that,

00:20:54.840 uh, because I think it's, I think they're wrong for going so far left on those issues. However,

00:20:59.620 I don't think the conservative, ideologically conservative approach is the best approach.

00:21:05.120 And I think we need to re-examine how we might want to, um, um, really focus on those issues and,

00:21:12.960 and how we address those issues. Yeah. I would disagree with you at least on,

00:21:18.100 at least when it comes to abortion. Now I would say like within the actual walls of a church,

00:21:23.320 that there does seem to be either a silence about abortion in that there could be, you know,

00:21:30.880 people who had abortions in the congregation who wouldn't feel comfortable coming forward and

00:21:35.260 saying, Hey, this happened in my life. I need help. I need counseling. I need grace or whatever it is.

00:21:40.140 I think that's probably true. But when I look at the crisis pregnancy centers, when I look at the

00:21:45.060 pro-life centers that I have spent so many hours at, and that I have talked to so many people who,

00:21:51.440 who run these organizations, I obviously can't say they're exclusively conservative evangelicals,

00:21:58.240 but they are these pro-life evangelicals who pour their entire lives into helping women and families

00:22:06.000 and babies in crisis. And so a lot of times I hear this, what I think is a false dichotomy from

00:22:11.300 people on the left are Christian Democrats saying, yeah, sure. We need to care about babies inside the

00:22:17.180 womb, but making it illegal. Isn't the way to do it. We need to do X, Y, Z program to show that we

00:22:23.420 really care about the women in need. That's what it means to be pro all life. And that to me is just

00:22:29.440 crazy. So you have to vote for legal access to dismembering babies inside the womb. And you can

00:22:35.000 only be pro all life. If you're for these government programs, when there are people voluntarily

00:22:40.360 spending their entire lives and livelihoods, helping these women, like, it's just not true

00:22:46.380 that most pro-lifers are just pro birth. So my question is like, what, what more is there to do

00:22:52.560 for a conservative pro-lifer? There's so many people who spend so much helping these families.

00:22:58.960 We just don't think that the government is the most effective means to do that.

00:23:02.940 Well, I think there's plenty to do. Uh, and so what, let me be very clear. What I'm saying is

00:23:08.280 that no, not that there's, there is good work going on. Um, I'm not saying that no one that

00:23:13.380 considers themselves an ideological conservative has done anything. That's that's whole life. That's

00:23:17.980 not the conversation. But I think if we step back and we look at the rhetoric, if we go back to the

00:23:23.520 moral majority and really, you know, what, what got a lot of this really, really going and a lot of

00:23:29.320 their rhetoric was lasting, there wasn't the compassion there. There isn't the compassion

00:23:34.240 and a lot of other issues that we talk about. So when we talk about civil rights and all these

00:23:38.700 issues, these are issues that linger and the failure there lingers. And when you haven't taken,

00:23:43.760 when you haven't taken the precautions to make sure that that never happens again,

00:23:47.900 then people see that when you talk about immigrants or you allow people to talk about immigrants in a

00:23:52.260 way that is not, that is not humane, that's not okay. Uh, when you show a lack of care for that,

00:23:57.660 people are going to look at you and say that you're not whole life. That doesn't mean that

00:24:01.180 no one among you is doing things. It just means that you could do better. Just like I admitted

00:24:05.300 that on my side, we can do better. We have to be open to saying, you know what, maybe we can look

00:24:09.540 at that and there's things that we can do. But it's a, it's, it's, it's not just that one issue.

00:24:14.480 There are a lot of other issues that seem to tell people that maybe you don't have the compassion

00:24:18.220 when it comes to the lives of others that, uh, that you, that people think, uh, conservatives should have.

00:24:23.440 So I think what I'm hearing you say is that yes, conservative evangelicals might show compassion

00:24:30.800 for the unborn, but when it comes to racial justice issues or social justice issues or immigration,

00:24:35.880 they show a lack of compassion that kind of belies the title pro-life. I want to be specific. Is that

00:24:43.080 what you're saying? Yeah, I think that's part of it that, uh, they, when it comes to those other

00:24:48.640 issues, I think we see what I call the politics of Christian self-interest rather than the politics,

00:24:53.700 uh, the politics of neighborly love. Uh, I think sometimes we put ourselves before them and don't

00:24:58.160 realize that those issues have life implications as well. Now I say that again, without at all

00:25:04.340 defending what's going on on the left, what's going on on the left is not okay. It needs to be stopped.

00:25:09.220 And I'll, I'll fight for the rest of my life if I have to, to make sure that that stops.

00:25:12.640 But I'm just telling you why people, uh, Christians who may vote Democrat don't see the conservative

00:25:18.520 side of the Republican party as being as pro-life as they say they are. I think a lot of conservatives

00:25:23.820 would say that Republicans are not as pro-life as they say they are. I would agree with that.

00:25:29.240 Just even if we're just talking about fighting for the unborn, there's a lot of showmanship every

00:25:34.000 four years, or if it's a, you know, senatorial race every six years, whatever it is, um, saying,

00:25:39.000 you know, we're going to defund Planned Parenthood. We're going to fight for the unborn.

00:25:42.640 It's an issue that whips up conservatives and that we will vote on. But at least I've kind

00:25:48.460 of grown cynical to realize that there are very few Republicans that will actually fight for this

00:25:52.960 issue. They have to hold on to it because it's what gets them votes every time. If they actually

00:25:58.460 defund Planned Parenthood, what are they going to run on? And so unfortunately that is true. Um,

00:26:04.140 and there are certainly things I would agree with you that Donald Trump said and did that

00:26:09.060 conservative pro-lifers would say the family separation, how people were treated at the

00:26:14.180 border was not right. And we can, we can agree on those things, but then the reason why we just

00:26:20.120 can't, we can't bring ourselves to turn to Democrat because it's like, but, but, but you're fighting

00:26:25.540 for, especially someone like Kamala Harris or Warnock fighting for the unfettered access to what

00:26:31.960 is such a brutal act. And I know you agree with me. I'm not arguing with you. And I think that's

00:26:36.080 why we just, it's so hard for us to find any reconciliation there. Even if we might agree

00:26:41.320 that some of these other issues are problematic, when we look at what abortion is, I mean, we're

00:26:45.600 literally talking about murder. We're not talking about some intangible thing. We're not talking

00:26:49.640 about, um, you know, some historical, uh, thing. We're talking about something that's happening

00:26:56.200 right now, thousands of times a day. And it just seems like so many people on the left say, yeah,

00:27:01.300 that's true, but we're still going to vote for the party that it, that allows unfettered access

00:27:06.960 to that. And not only that, but wants me to pay for it. Um, and that's just too far the other

00:27:13.540 direction that when we look at the other issues, we're like, yeah, those are bad, but I know I can't

00:27:18.520 get on board with that. And it seems like you feel that way, except the opposite about the Republican

00:27:22.560 party. Yeah. I mean, and, and, and mind you, I'm not saying that I respect that decision. I'm not

00:27:27.920 saying that everybody has to be Democrats. I think that there should be a critical mass of Christians

00:27:32.380 on both sides. And I would love to see two very strong parties. Uh, but what I, but what I am

00:27:37.760 saying is that Christians, if you are of the mind that to say that Trump shouldn't, you know, what

00:27:43.020 happened on the border was terrible, that Trump shouldn't have said the things that he said, there

00:27:46.920 should have been a louder chorus behind that. Uh, and when those things happen, you know,

00:27:52.560 it's hard to see the, the folks that you're talking about, you don't see enough of them

00:27:56.080 saying, no, that's not right. You more so people see people defending it. And that, that happens

00:28:00.480 on the, on the, on the right, uh, on the left too. Right. When we see things that we don't like

00:28:04.960 because we want to maintain a narrative, we feel like if I voted for this person, then I'm justifying

00:28:10.160 myself by defending this person. And I think that's just the wrong way to go about it, especially

00:28:14.440 for a Christian. And I think on both sides, for those voices to rise up and say, no, that's

00:28:19.440 not okay. That can't happen again. I'm not going to vote for you. If you do that again, that's the

00:28:24.600 kind of things we need to do when it comes to immigration, when it comes to, uh, uh, abortion

00:28:30.280 on the other side, we need to take those stands and be a little louder and it's just not happening

00:28:34.020 right now. Yeah. And I think it depends on the people that you hang around too, because I actually

00:28:38.700 feel like there were a lot of people on the conservative side saying, Hey, what's happening at the

00:28:43.320 border. It isn't right. Now I understand that's probably not represented in the media in the same

00:28:48.720 way that people on the right would say, I never hear people on the left talking about abortion

00:28:52.600 being bad. It's almost like we add nuance to the topics that are convenient to add nuance to the

00:28:59.420 ones that we don't want to just say, yeah, this is wrong on. I think that's a fault of both sides. I

00:29:04.840 just hear a lot of unnecessary nuance from the left when it comes to abortion that, yeah, it's bad,

00:29:11.700 but you know, I'm not for it. I'm personally pro-life, but I'm politically pro-choice. I mean,

00:29:19.060 we're talking about murder. And then there are other things on the right that we probably just,

00:29:23.460 you know, we add nuance to, because we don't want to give any credence and we don't want to move an

00:29:27.880 inch in the, in the other direction. Um, it's, I, I really commend what you do. It's hard for me to

00:29:34.500 understand how the two sides, you know, can, can, and I don't even want to say it is two sides. Um,

00:29:40.940 they just seem in some ways, so fundamentally far apart in what we believe and what we believe the

00:29:48.260 solutions to be. Yeah, they are fun, uh, very far apart in a lot of ways. And so I want to, what I,

00:29:54.940 what I want to, what I want to be clear about is this is not saying that if we combine both,

00:29:59.780 they perfect, they make the perfect position. That's not what we're saying. Yeah. We're saying,

00:30:03.000 take the best of both and you might get more of the best from one side or the other. It's not a

00:30:07.440 false equivalence. So I understand how, you know, people could think the Democrats may be better.

00:30:11.980 The Republicans might be better. Take the best out of both sides. And how do you judge what the best

00:30:16.440 is by biblical standards, by the compassion and the conviction that the and campaign, uh, wrote a

00:30:21.980 whole book about. And we talked so much about that's what we're really trying to get at. Not to say

00:30:26.140 if you can bind them, they're equal and you'll come to the right place in some kind of Hegelian,

00:30:29.980 you know, uh, dialectic, but there don't just assume that your side is right and stand up and

00:30:35.900 say something when your side is wrong, because there's a possibility that the other side gets

00:30:39.740 something right. Um, even if you think the majority of stuff, the stuff they get, they get wrong.

00:30:44.240 That's what we're saying.

00:30:54.840 I do see, I mean, at least a few, at least a few weeks ago, I don't know how I feel now we're

00:31:00.100 recording this in January. This is going to come out in April or may, and there's a lot of craziness

00:31:03.860 that's going on before the inauguration and all of that. I do think that there could be a path

00:31:10.240 forward for people who are socially conservative, like you and me, but, um, I wouldn't call myself

00:31:15.840 economically liberal, but if there's anywhere I could find wiggle room, it would be on those

00:31:20.140 issues. I do think that there could be a path forward for people like that. And that some

00:31:24.520 people would say that's a form of like right of center populism, um, that there are people on the

00:31:30.620 left and the right who could represent that. I think the big sticking, sticking point, I've heard

00:31:35.040 you talk about this is the cultural issues for people on the left. Like, even if I agree with

00:31:40.360 some of the solutions or some of the problems that they point out, and maybe even some of the

00:31:44.400 solutions, like I don't disagree with everything that AOC says or Ilhan Omar, and they're like very

00:31:49.560 far over to the left, but some things they say, I'm like, okay, that's fair. But the reason why I

00:31:55.280 couldn't support them is because of these social, cultural, and, you know, moral issues that we just

00:32:02.580 can't get past, do you see any path for the social conservatives and the economically at least

00:32:08.740 left of center people to move forward together and say, okay, these are the best policies for

00:32:14.040 families, for working class people, and for poor people? Because at the end of the day,

00:32:19.280 that's the kind of country that I want. Yeah, I think there's, there's plenty of room for a

00:32:25.120 realignment. We see what's going on with, with the Republican party. I mean, there could be some

00:32:29.400 divisions there. I don't know if these differences are irreconcilable or not, but there's some very

00:32:34.400 serious differences that, that we'll see how they get ironed out. And then on the, on the left,

00:32:39.600 there is a, some serious fractures. And it really, what people don't realize is that on the left,

00:32:45.040 the only thing that was holding these folks together was Trump. I mean, Trump held together

00:32:49.000 a group that is really falling apart. We'll see how, how Biden does and, and kind of keeping that

00:32:54.920 together. I think he may struggle to do that, but, but there's some fault lines that I think are

00:32:59.240 going to be exposed and we'll just see what happens. I think, you know, at very least when

00:33:04.440 it comes to people of faith, there should be some core issues that we should be able to say, you know

00:33:09.200 what, even if we remain in different parties that we can come together on some of these, these core

00:33:13.340 issues. I, I, I mean, that type of coalition, that's that nimble coalition that can do some of

00:33:18.920 those things is probably more likely in the near term, more doable in the near term, but we'll just

00:33:24.860 have to see what happens. But something's got to change because I think, especially for Christians,

00:33:29.000 there's some elements on the right and on the left that we should just not tolerate and that we

00:33:34.960 should push harder against. And I think you talked about civic liberty or literacy and how

00:33:41.460 important that is. I think it is important for us to be able to distinguish between the values that

00:33:46.660 we hold dear and what the government's role actually is in some of those, some of those

00:33:52.000 things. Like if we believe in traditional marriage, well, is there a government role in that or is

00:33:57.600 there not? Like how do we balance some of these social issues on the left with things that we

00:34:01.500 hold dear, like religious liberty? And how do we bring those things together in a way that allows

00:34:07.440 freedom to flourish for all people, but also doesn't leave anyone out, even if your personal values

00:34:15.720 disagree with someone else's lifestyle. And I'm very open to that conversation. I think that you

00:34:20.900 see that struggle already within the Biden administration. You saw it in the campaign,

00:34:26.400 but I hear it in the speeches now, wanting to appeal to those people of faith who are still kind of over

00:34:32.880 here, maybe in the center or center right, but also trying to get those far left progressives,

00:34:38.680 like saying things like, sure, if an eight-year-old wants to change genders, that's fine. And the rest of us

00:34:43.360 are like, what are you talking about? And the Hyde Amendment and things like that. And for me,

00:34:49.400 the constant categorization of people by race, that is a real turnoff for a lot of Christians on the

00:34:57.680 other side. But I want him to do well and I want the country to come together. I just, I don't want to

00:35:05.460 be cynical. I just don't see, I don't see him doing that. I don't see that from his rhetoric.

00:35:12.500 I just think that he's trying too hard to play both sides and it's going to end up being, everyone's

00:35:17.400 frustrated. Yeah, he's going to have a difficult job. I, you know, I think he's more up to it than

00:35:24.500 a lot of those other candidates were. And so we'll, you know, I'm going to give him a chance to see,

00:35:28.100 to see what he can do. But, but yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how he deals with that.

00:35:33.440 One of the problems that I think a lot of Democrats are having is, is staffing. And so there's, you

00:35:39.260 know, they may think one way and you saw it in the Biden campaign where he may think one way,

00:35:43.080 but he had a staff, a communication staff and other staff that was trying to go in a completely

00:35:46.940 different direction and go completely left. He's going to have to find a way to get that under

00:35:51.200 control. And then really it's going to be about the people who are around him working with him in

00:35:55.320 good faith to get his vision out. Because I do think Biden has shown that he does try to walk,

00:35:59.900 work across the aisle that he, that he's not as far left as even that he seems to have been pushed

00:36:05.520 in some areas, but he just still doesn't seem comfortable there. But in, in, in, in, in regards

00:36:10.620 to the first part of your, your, your question, I think you were kind of asking, how do we, you know,

00:36:14.780 apply biblical values in a way that isn't, that still is respects the pluralism of this country.

00:36:20.340 Right. And I don't know that there's a bright line for how we do that, but I think it starts

00:36:24.040 with being able to articulate why Christian values are good for everyone, right? Not just saying,

00:36:30.900 this is what the Bible says, therefore you should do it. I think that was kind of the

00:36:33.880 moral majority stance and some of the things we did before, but articulating why marriage is good

00:36:39.340 for everybody, why, you know, our definition is good for everybody, why, you know, children not

00:36:45.040 going through some of the things that they're being pushed to, to transform to, why that those

00:36:49.580 things are good. But you got to articulate it in a way where people who aren't Christian can see,

00:36:53.580 oh, that benefits me too. There are practical benefits for, for the, for society as a whole

00:36:57.980 and not just doing it because Christian said it. I think that's the first way to start because we

00:37:02.360 can get caught flat footed on issues because we haven't thought them through in that wider context.

00:37:07.960 And I think that'll help us articulate and persuade people to some Christian values.

00:37:13.800 If they are willing to debate those issues, I think one of the problems that we see on the right

00:37:20.540 is, um, an unwillingness by some, it seems like a lot on the left to debate these issues. Like I hear

00:37:28.460 a lot, abortion or bodily autonomy isn't debatable. People's identity, which they say is, you know,

00:37:34.700 gender isn't debatable. How people love isn't debatable. And so it's hard to find a forum where

00:37:41.060 people on the other side will talk about these understandably tense issues. Um, I have, I, there was

00:37:47.960 someone who he now identifies as a conservative, but he was a liberal and he's married and he's

00:37:52.560 gay. And I was able to tell him this is what I think, because, you know, this is what the Bible

00:37:57.680 says. It was a theological conversation, but it's very, very rare to be invited into a space like

00:38:04.380 that to discuss those issues. How do you think we can better facilitate it?

00:38:09.660 Yeah, we've gone back and forth on a lot of things today, but you're not going to get any,

00:38:13.880 any pushback on me on that one. Uh, the, the left has created so many rhetorical devices to cut off

00:38:19.640 the debate, to not have to discuss the things that they know don't really have a rational basis.

00:38:25.960 Uh, that is a tough conversation, but I, but I think it's really a small group, right? I think it's a lot

00:38:31.660 of the representatives. I think it's the professional class that stand there and it's really, it's, it's,

00:38:37.060 it's shallow. Um, and so we have to get to the people. We have to get to the grassroots to have

00:38:42.680 those conversations because most people understand that in a democracy, what do you mean? You have to

00:38:46.800 debate these things. You can't move legislation and have these sweeping changes and not have a real

00:38:52.700 public debate and discourse about what's going on. And so we just have to really, one of the things

00:38:57.620 the end campaign tries to do is really dismantle some of these rhetorical devices that, you know,

00:39:03.320 and many of these are on the left that the left uses to not have a debate, to not have to discuss

00:39:08.380 the things they really want to do, but can't really defend. We got to call it out and we got

00:39:12.740 to make sure that we let others know that we can't, democracy can't survive like that. We have to have

00:39:18.500 discussions. There's nothing that's above debate. We can have decorum, we can be civil, but you don't

00:39:23.860 get to just get to say that I don't want to talk about that, but I'm going to enforce it on other

00:39:27.800 people. And that's why conservatives are so worried about censorship. Not that these tech companies

00:39:33.880 can't have rules that they can enforce, but we are worried about political bias and censorship.

00:39:39.020 And I mean, we do feel like we have to self-police, especially when we're talking about some of the

00:39:43.540 issues that, you know, we just mentioned. And that is one thing that I feel like is almost

00:39:50.300 an exclusive concern of the right, is censorship, is that, you know, there's some people on the left

00:39:57.460 who think that conservatives are harmful, that almost, I saw a pro-life activist who really is

00:40:02.500 nonpartisan. She said abortion is violence. Well, she had an abortion doctor who has tons of followers

00:40:08.180 say, this is what domestic terrorism looks like, saying abortion is violence. I'm like, whoa, whoa,

00:40:13.680 whoa. So we're not even allowed to say anything without someone saying that it's inciting violence?

00:40:20.920 I mean, we can't move forward like that. And I think that's very rare. That doesn't happen a lot

00:40:24.760 on the left, but that's something that people on the right are concerned about.

00:40:27.460 Yeah. I mean, I'm concerned about censorship too. I just think, you know, on the right,

00:40:33.000 you got to maybe choose the examples better. I think, I don't know if Trump and what, you know,

00:40:37.300 what happened with the U.S. Capitol is really where you want to place your argument there.

00:40:41.940 One of the things I think that conservatives can do better is realize you have a lot of,

00:40:46.220 you know, there's on some issues, especially an issue like this, there are allies on the other side,

00:40:50.620 but we got to make sure that we're connecting in a way and on a, you know, on a premise that people

00:40:55.820 can gather together. And I think to, you know, to really make the, what happened with the Capitol

00:41:01.860 and what happened on Twitter in regard to Trump, what you're arguing based on, you're going to lose

00:41:07.100 a lot of the people that really agree with you, that hate the idea that they can't say what they

00:41:11.840 want to say, that react to polls differently because they don't trust that they can say what

00:41:16.080 they really want to say, all of these things. There's a lot of people who feel that way. I think

00:41:19.800 it's a small minority of very powerful, well-resourced people who are trying to do this.

00:41:25.300 But when you get on the ground, when you really get to the grassroots,

00:41:28.200 they don't agree with most of the stuff that these folks are pushing forward.

00:41:31.560 Yeah. Like the ACLU, who I would say is on the left. They had a problem. They actually had a

00:41:36.240 problem with the president being taken off Twitter and they do have a problem with censorship because

00:41:40.180 they are actually able to see, okay, if they can do this in this case, then they're probably going

00:41:44.520 to do it in other cases too, to people like, you know, consistently marginalized,

00:41:49.380 marginalized voices. And that does become a problem, which is why I should, I do think it's

00:41:53.180 a bipartisan issue, not necessarily the president, but just in general. There's one more thing I want

00:41:57.780 to ask you about. If you have time, do you have time?

00:42:01.540 Yeah, let's do it.

00:42:02.280 Okay. And it has to do with something that you said about rhetorical devices that I think are used.

00:42:08.940 I agree that they're probably on the left and the right. But one thing recently that I see,

00:42:13.340 a rhetorical device that has come up on the left, and I think you're going to disagree with me based

00:42:19.620 on a tweet that you said about critical race theory. You have said, you know, it's better to

00:42:25.340 just, you know, we don't have to worry about critical race theory if we just abolish racism.

00:42:30.700 It seems to me though, that critical race theory is kind of a bludgeon that is used by people on the

00:42:36.180 left to dismiss any conversation about systemic racism today, what it actually looks like, which

00:42:43.260 disparities actually point to discrimination and which doesn't, what are actual, what are examples

00:42:48.960 of white privilege? What aren't examples of white privilege? It's almost like when we're shutting

00:42:53.480 down conversation with just the critical race theory assertion that all black and brown people are

00:42:58.460 oppressed, all white people are a form of oppressors. And anything that I say is just evidence of

00:43:04.180 white fragility, that to me seems like a rhetorical device to where we can't even have conversations

00:43:09.900 about this, and certain people aren't allowed to push back because of the tenets of critical race

00:43:14.880 theory. What do you think? Yeah, so what my statement was saying, because I don't really use critical race

00:43:20.240 theory to say anything. I mean, I think there are some merits. I think there are some perils to it. So

00:43:24.360 that's not the argument I was making. The statement I was making was, I think racism is worse than

00:43:29.580 critical race theory. And if you look at the history again, I think the reason that people

00:43:34.040 don't accept. Because a lot of people, I mean, in my community, most of the people don't even

00:43:38.920 really know what critical race theory is, because that's not, you know, we know racism, we have our

00:43:43.040 theories on it. And I don't think you have to know what it is to use it. I think people use it without

00:43:48.800 knowing what it is. Right. But I'm just saying, even those, we're not like married to wedded to any

00:43:54.420 of those theories, right? My understanding of what race is and how it's been used is through history,

00:43:58.760 through, you know, my grandparents and people who taught me in reading about what this was.

00:44:04.200 You know, I'm not like, you know, you're not going to see a lot of adherence to critical race

00:44:09.480 theory. But I think what part of the problem is, is that the people that want to talk about critical

00:44:14.060 race theory don't have any credibility on race based on the history that I've named already.

00:44:19.220 And so when you failed on, you know, when your tradition fails on civil rights, when it fails on

00:44:23.060 many of these things that come up over and over again and actually perpetuates it,

00:44:26.320 people aren't going to accept what you have to say very easily when it comes to race,

00:44:31.180 when you haven't shown a real concern to get it fixed. It seems like a distraction. And so that's

00:44:36.640 what I was trying to say, like worry more so about what racism is and maybe the failures there than

00:44:41.300 critical race theory, because I don't think a lot of, I think, again, I think there's a group that

00:44:45.680 uses that for everything. I think most people don't even aren't even worried about critical race

00:44:49.980 theory. I don't really, I wasn't given a defense of it. I think it has some merits because

00:44:54.520 when it comes to race power, there are some very serious power dynamics that have been used

00:44:59.020 historically. But I also think there's some very serious perils. And so when people in a Christian

00:45:03.440 community ask me about critical race theory, I say, look, you got, before you go to anybody talking

00:45:09.060 about critical race theory, you better understand the perils of this. Because one thing you and I

00:45:13.740 both know, there are good people who are black, there are good people who are white, there are bad

00:45:17.540 people who are black, there are bad people who are white. Your color tells nobody anything about your

00:45:22.100 character. And I think we can both agree on that. And so in any system or theory that says anything

00:45:28.460 different is just wrong. But at the same time, power has been used when it comes to race. I mean,

00:45:34.560 this is a country that codified discrimination for hundreds of years. That has an impact on the

00:45:40.520 present day. And we have to be able to admit that. Yes. Now, I don't know if it's fair to say that

00:45:47.080 people can't criticize critical race theory, if they've been a part of like a quote tradition that

00:45:52.940 hasn't fought against race, because that's very, that's collectivizing people in a way to say, okay,

00:45:58.160 well, because I'm a white evangelical, and white evangelicals didn't fight against, or they did

00:46:03.400 fight against civil rights in the 1960s. I can't talk about critical race theory.

00:46:07.920 So I'm not saying you can't talk about it. I'm saying you might not have credibility when you talk

00:46:12.220 about it. So I'm never one of those people to say you can't talk about it. I'm saying when people

00:46:16.680 look at it, and they look at the history of how either somebody personally or their group has

00:46:21.760 handled race, if you haven't handled race in a concerned way, in a careful way, then people are

00:46:27.580 going to say, you know what, this seems like a distraction. Why don't we do something about the

00:46:32.620 race issue, then we can have the credibility to really attack the perils of what comes with CRT.

00:46:37.900 But I actually think that there's such an opportunity right now with the people who are

00:46:42.260 talking about critical race theory, to be able to say, hey, I want to have a conversation about

00:46:49.460 these solutions, too. I think people are thinking about race and race issues for some people for

00:46:55.420 the first time, some people more than ever, whether it's on the left or the right, and are very willing

00:47:00.740 to have conversations where they would listen to something that you've said and say, okay, yeah,

00:47:05.360 that is a problem. I wasn't aware of that. Or that is a historical injustice that hasn't been

00:47:09.640 righted. But I think when I think that critical race theory that you can't just say, okay, racism

00:47:15.420 is worse, because critical race theory is a form of racism, it is a form of racism. And so it is

00:47:21.800 counterproductive in these conversations, because if someone wants to hear about race, but they say,

00:47:27.940 you know, they hear terms like, you know, you're just fragile, if you're if you defend this, or

00:47:34.940 everything that happens that a white person does is white privilege, then that is really hard for

00:47:41.700 people who genuinely are like, okay, I want to talk about race, let's talk about this. But you're not

00:47:46.140 allowed to push back at all. Like you're not allowed to have any defense against any assertions,

00:47:50.200 you're not allowed to say, okay, what is the proof of that? Or well, that doesn't really sound

00:47:54.740 logical. Or do we know that that's evidence of discrimination? When we're not allowed to ask those

00:48:00.840 questions, because we're white, or because we're conservatives, then there really is no way forward

00:48:06.260 because people are just like, well, I don't know how to have these conversations. And I guess I don't

00:48:10.940 have any credibility to. And so I think that the tenets of critical race theory turn people off to

00:48:18.240 what could be very, very productive conversations about solutions that can be done.

00:48:25.220 So yeah, so let me be clear. There's no question I don't think somebody can ask based on that.

00:48:30.140 There's no person that I wouldn't have a conversation with. So I want to make sure that

00:48:33.700 we distinguish between my position and where some, you know, maybe secular progressive theorists may

00:48:38.360 be. I want to have those conversations. I invite those conversations with you and others. And you

00:48:42.780 can ask me any question that you that you want to ask. I want to be very clear about that. But I think

00:48:48.400 we also need to realize that, number one, there needs to be a sense of urgency, because as we have

00:48:54.600 these conversations, I would say that people are still suffering. So it's not something that we can just

00:48:58.800 kind of lollygag around and kind of deal with when we can. And the other thing is,

00:49:03.640 if you really think something is wrong, if you really think there's racial injustice, or you know

00:49:08.720 that historically this country has codified racism, and that still may have lingering effects,

00:49:14.360 somebody else's rhetoric should not stop you from doing what's right. And that's the thing that I

00:49:18.500 don't accept. A lot of this stuff is obnoxious to me, too. But listen, a lot of this stuff is obnoxious

00:49:23.920 to me, too. But if I think something is wrong, I'm not going to let somebody else's rhetoric or

00:49:28.620 how they talk about it, or because they're annoying, or because they try to shut me off,

00:49:32.200 stop me from doing what is right. And that's what I don't accept kind of from the conservative point

00:49:36.880 of view. If you think this is right, don't let their rhetoric get in the way of you doing what's

00:49:41.680 right. That doesn't make sense, especially from a Christian point of view. If it's right, then you need

00:49:46.040 to do it regardless. And what I'm saying is, I have an open invitation to have those conversations

00:49:50.880 with you, even if there's some other people that won't have those conversations. You can ask me

00:49:55.500 whatever question you want to ask. So let's have that conversation. But understand there should be

00:50:00.240 a sense of urgency. And I don't care what anybody else is doing. If it's right, then you should do it

00:50:06.080 anyway. Like what? Like what would be some tangible thing that someone could do? You should pursue

00:50:12.860 making sure that some of these communities who have been downtrodden since we had codified

00:50:20.300 discrimination in our laws that have never risen up. Make sure that you're going out of your way

00:50:25.360 to kind of provide resources. Make sure that you're looking at some of these issues when it comes to

00:50:29.460 disparities in education, when it comes to disparities in health care, why black people

00:50:34.780 were dying at such a rate when it came to COVID, unlike other communities. Take your time to look at

00:50:40.080 the policies that have an impact on that and have conversations with people in those communities.

00:50:45.300 I think one of the unfortunate things that happened, Allie, and I appreciate this conversation,

00:50:49.180 is that the conversation between me and you don't happen a lot. We talk through other people. We

00:50:54.360 talk through Fox News or we talk through MSNBC. We need to have these conversations and we need to

00:50:59.920 make sure that once we decide something is right and something needs to be dealt with, not to let

00:51:03.920 these other voices and other distractions stop us from doing what's right. And there's a number of

00:51:08.580 disparities that we could go in depth on that we really need to examine and see how we can fix some

00:51:13.580 of these things. Because again, people are suffering. And I don't think it's something,

00:51:17.200 I think it's something that, again, we should have a sense of urgency about because these are serious

00:51:21.600 issues that I think could have been prevented if, you know, people in the church had stepped up

00:51:25.920 sooner.

00:51:26.860 And I think where, I think here's like one minor adjustment that people on the left and the right

00:51:32.000 can make in these kind of conversations about like disparities in education, disparities in abortion

00:51:37.020 rates, disparities in poverty. There are disparities between white and black people. There are also

00:51:42.280 disparities between Asian and white people. The bigger disparities are really between classes,

00:51:46.840 more than between races. I think something that people on the left need to understand is that

00:51:51.880 not every disparity points to discrimination. That's a logical fallacy. What people on the right

00:51:57.080 need to realize is that some disparities do point to discrimination, that we shouldn't be searching for

00:52:02.220 every other possibility that it could be when it may very well be discrimination. But we can't on the

00:52:08.800 left say every single disparity between every single group is because of racism or is because of

00:52:13.720 discrimination. I think that would actually blind us to other possibilities that need other solutions

00:52:19.740 that could be fixed because they could be class issues. People in Appalachia have been dying at the

00:52:26.660 same rate as people in inner cities. And so I think that we have to have, and that's to me where

00:52:32.500 critical race theory gets in the way, is that some issues are racial issues. Some issues are class

00:52:37.720 issues that we see as racial issues because of the lens of critical race theory that prohibits us from

00:52:43.520 actually looking at what the issues are. But to your point, we can't just say, well, that's critical

00:52:49.020 race theory. And so the end, we need a sense of urgency into saying, okay, if it's a class issue,

00:52:54.440 if it's a racial issue, whatever is causing this disparity, let's get after, let's get after making

00:53:00.380 it right as much as, as much as we can. Disparities will never be closed forever. They just won't.

00:53:06.740 Individuals are different. But if there is an injustice there, if something wrong is happening there,

00:53:13.260 then I agree with you. There should be a sense of urgency on both sides to fix it.

00:53:18.260 I'm about finding solutions. And so if that is not the problem, then I want to identify what the

00:53:22.900 problem is. And I'm not one of those people, you know, I push back against that. I think there are

00:53:26.260 a lot of disparities and issues that are based on class. And I push back on that all the time. So

00:53:31.820 I think that's something that we may be able to end with an agreement on.

00:53:35.640 Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. If you could just tell everyone

00:53:39.900 again, where they can find you, social media, your book, all that good stuff.

00:53:43.960 Yes. Again, I'm Justin Giboney. I am the president of the AND Campaign. You can go to

00:53:48.900 Twitter and Instagram and that's at AND Campaign, A-N-D Campaign. Or you can go to my personal,

00:53:54.660 which is at Justin E. Giboney, G-I-B-O-N-E-Y. You can catch us there. You also can go get our book,

00:54:01.780 which is Compassion and Conviction. It's the AND Campaign's Guide to Faithful Civic Engagement.

00:54:06.460 And we just really go over what we think it is to apply biblical values to the issues of the day

00:54:12.280 and let people know that whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, we can disagree and

00:54:15.940 be Christian. But there are certain principles that we must all adhere to.

00:54:19.320 Thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

00:54:22.820 Thanks for having me, Ali. You take care.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 20, 2021

Ep 406 ｜ Moral Order AND Social Justice？｜ Guest： Justin Giboney

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