Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 409 ｜ The 'Equity' vs. 'Equality' Trap ｜ Guests： Darrell Harrison & Virgil Walker

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Today I am so excited to talk to Daryl Harrison and Virgil

00:00:15.340 Walker of the Just Thinking Podcast. We are going to talk all about equity and equality

00:00:20.400 in the social justice movement and people leaving the church based on some idea of what

00:00:28.640 the church's responsibilities are in the way of racial reconciliation and reparations. We are

00:00:34.780 going to talk about Ibram X. Kendi and his support of something or his adherence to something called

00:00:42.100 liberation theology and his stated rejection of something that he calls savior theology,

00:00:47.720 which is what you and I, Orthodox Christians, hold to. And we'll talk about that. I do want to,

00:00:54.400 before I get into the conversation with Daryl and Virgil of the Just Thinking Podcast, I do want

00:00:59.420 to play you just a clip of this Ibram X. Kendi conversation at a church in Manhattan that we

00:01:06.460 are going to break down at the beginning of our conversation and then we'll go right into the

00:01:11.920 interview with Daryl and Virgil. Liberation theology. In other words, Jesus was a revolutionary

00:01:18.540 revolutionary. And the job of the Christian is to revolutionize society. That the job of the

00:01:26.140 Christian is to liberate society from the powers on earth that are oppressing humanity. Everybody 0.80

00:01:35.400 understand that? So that's liberation theology in a nutshell.

00:01:39.140 Daryl, Virgil, thank you guys so much for joining me once again. Lots I want to talk to you about

00:01:49.080 today. First, I want to talk about this statement that has been circulating on Twitter, at least it

00:01:55.360 was at the time that we are recording this. Ibram X. Kendi at a Manhattan church talking about

00:02:01.380 fundamentally rejecting savior theology and switching it out for something that's called

00:02:08.440 liberation theology. Now, for people who have no idea what any of that means, Daryl, can you

00:02:14.660 kind of just interpret what does he mean by savior theology versus liberation theology?

00:02:20.600 Yeah, Allie, first of all, thanks for having us on. We appreciate it. I just want to say at the top

00:02:25.800 here, I thought it was ironic that when Kendi was saying those words that he rejected savior theology,

00:02:32.480 I thought it ironic that he said those words in front of a sculpture that was right behind them

00:02:38.360 on the stage that had the words of Jesus from Matthew 28, verse 18 through 20, where Jesus

00:02:44.780 said, all authority has been given to me in heaven and earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all

00:02:49.680 nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit. So there you have

00:02:54.720 savior theology in Jesus's own words, right behind Ibram X. Kendi as he was uttering his confession that

00:03:02.760 he doesn't subscribe to savior theology. So I thought that was ironic, but I will give Kendi this

00:03:09.620 credit. He described it perfectly. He gave a perfect definition of liberation theology. When Kendi says

00:03:16.320 that the job of the Christian is to revolutionize society, that is the definition of liberation

00:03:22.320 theology. He was exactly right. Liberation theology seeks to liberate in a temporal social construct

00:03:31.180 people from oppression. So that is the distinction between the biblical gospel, which seeks to liberate

00:03:41.800 sinners from the wrath of God. So there's the distinction in the two. So I'll give Kendi credit

00:03:48.440 there. He was absolutely right in his definition of liberation theology. But to say that he doesn't

00:03:52.780 subscribe to savior theology, he was right there too, because a liberation theologian doesn't

00:03:57.320 subscribe to biblical theology in that sense. So I'll give him credit there. Right. And I think

00:04:03.240 that he realizes, Virgil, what a lot of people who might define themselves as some kind of social

00:04:08.880 justice or progressive Christians don't actually realize that you can't have both. So he says that he

00:04:15.240 rejects savior theology. He accepts liberation theology. But what I hear from people who still

00:04:20.720 kind of consider themselves somewhat orthodox Christians is that, yes, I still believe that

00:04:25.420 Jesus died for my sin. So I still hold for, I hold to savior theology. But I also believe that the

00:04:32.340 reason why he came was to change these social structures and revolutionize society in the name

00:04:38.640 of liberation. Can you talk about, Virgil, why those two ideas of why Jesus came and what Christianity

00:04:45.760 is conflict? Well, Jesus came to save those who are lost. Jesus came to redeem sinful mankind,

00:04:54.740 sinful humanity. Liberation theology looks to save societies. Jesus wasn't trying to overthrow the Roman

00:05:02.740 empire. Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. He came to announce his kingdom, which was a

00:05:10.380 kingdom built upon the transformation of the human heart. What you were hearing Kendi articulate was

00:05:17.660 perfectly James Coneyan theology, the father of liberation theology. He had made the statement in

00:05:24.960 his talk that his parents grew up in the Black Power movement and that he was a child of parents who

00:05:33.540 kind of grew up with Black theology. I want to give you one quote quickly, Ali, from James Cone in his

00:05:40.220 book, Black Theology and Black Power. And I think it sums up in a sentence in James Cone's own words

00:05:46.440 what liberation theology is all about. He says this, quote,

00:05:50.720 for white people, God's reconciliation in Jesus Christ means that God made Black people a beautiful

00:05:57.400 people. And if they, meaning white people, are going to be in relationship with God, they must 0.84

00:06:03.840 enter by means of their Black brothers, who are a manifestation of God's presence on the earth, 0.93

00:06:10.560 end quote. So what you're seeing in liberation theology is an identification with Blackness,

00:06:18.660 and whiteness is something as sinful. And as Kendi explains, this struggle that we're all in to 0.98

00:06:25.540 overturn governments and to transform society, based upon their theology, you would have to believe

00:06:31.840 that Jesus was a revolutionary. You would have to believe at least the Jesus that you serve. This is

00:06:36.700 a different Jesus and therefore a different gospel, but you would have to believe that the Jesus that

00:06:40.860 you serve is one that is about revolution. Which that makes so much sense. That quote that

00:06:48.540 you just read from James Cone's makes so much sense with what Kendi said after or later in this

00:06:57.360 conversation when he says that anti-racism or his version of anti-racism can literally save humanity.

00:07:06.560 And so he doesn't deny, and I guess James Cone didn't deny, that we need a savior, that human

00:07:15.480 beings do need redemption. We do need to be restored. They just deny that it's Jesus actually doing that.

00:07:22.620 And it's actually, you know, they would say blackness or anti-racism. And so Daryl, can you,

00:07:31.040 can you talk about that? Like, what does he mean by anti-racism being the savior of the world? How does that

00:07:38.680 even work? Yeah. I'm glad you asked that, Ali, because when, when people like Kendi talk about,

00:07:44.220 when they use terms like salvation and redemption, they don't mean it in salvific terms as, as Jesus

00:07:50.740 Christ would use those terms. What Kendi is talking about when he talks about anti-racism, he is talking

00:07:56.600 about creating a sort of heaven on earth. He is talking about how the church can partner with,

00:08:04.320 uh, uh, uh, temporal entities like, uh, government, social agencies, and things like that to bring

00:08:11.180 about a, a, a kind of societal equality where, whereby, uh, black people in particular, and I say

00:08:18.860 that because we're talking about liberation theology here, black people in particular are given 0.51

00:08:24.820 positions of power. They're given, uh, economic opportunities solely based on the color of their

00:08:31.080 skin. So when Kendi talks about redemption and salvation, he is talking strictly in a material

00:08:36.620 sense. Those terms have nothing to do with the spiritual redemption that Christ came into the

00:08:43.180 world to, as Virgil said, to give to those who are lost, to give to his elect by faith. So we're

00:08:50.640 talking two different things, though we may use the same terms. Uh, we do not subscribe to the same

00:08:56.600 theology that someone like Ibram Kendi subscribes to when he talks about salvation and redemption.

00:09:02.360 And on that note, I think that's really ironic. So when, when, when Kendi says in that video

00:09:06.760 that the job of the Christian is to revolutionize society, again, I think it's interesting because

00:09:12.420 here's a guy who doesn't subscribe to savior theology. So if Jesus was not the savior, then there are no

00:09:18.920 Christians. And yet he says that the job of the Christian is to revolutionize society. If Jesus wasn't 0.63

00:09:24.600 deity, if Jesus wasn't God, if Jesus was just another human revolutionary, then why is Christianity

00:09:31.980 the model? Why does Christianity have a job to revolutionize society in the first place? 1.00

00:09:37.980 There were revolutionaries before Jesus came, there were revolutionaries after him.

00:09:41.600 But what Kendi is doing is he's robbing God. This is what liberation theology does, is it robs

00:09:46.260 Jesus of his deity. And without deity, Jesus has no authority. So how can Kendi say, on the one hand,

00:09:52.880 I don't subscribe to savior theology. And yet on the other hand, say the job of the Christian

00:09:56.960 is to revolutionize society. I don't get it.

00:09:59.260 Can I, can I, can I add something in here? Let me just add something because if you listen

00:10:03.460 to, to the full statement that he made, he acknowledges the fact that, that his theology,

00:10:10.340 if you will put in air quotes, is, is flawed because the solution is as, as Daryl mentioned,

00:10:17.740 the solution is to connect with government entities. The solution is to connect with

00:10:22.400 political power, but he acknowledges that, that power corrupts. Absolutely. That, that,

00:10:27.200 that absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. He kind of stumbles over those words in the course of,

00:10:31.500 of, of, of his talk. And what he says is that the answer then is to put someone in power,

00:10:37.600 put them in a position of power and hold them accountable. And then when they fail to find someone

00:10:42.240 else to put into power, and then when they fail to find someone else to put into power.

00:10:46.860 So by his very own admission, what he's, what he's positing, what he's suggesting

00:10:51.440 is absolutely flawed by the very nature of the flawed human condition that we all suffer from

00:10:56.960 known as sin. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I like how he, he acknowledges the differences, not just when it

00:11:07.020 comes to who he believes that Jesus is, but also in his eschatology, you talked about how they have a

00:11:13.520 different view of what, what they would consider the end times. They don't really view the end times

00:11:19.200 the same way that we do, that God is going to bring his kingdom here on earth, that only then

00:11:24.220 will we see perfect peace, perfect justice, perfect joy, no more sadness, sorrow, wickedness.

00:11:30.600 They see that as something that we can manifest here on earth through the government and different

00:11:37.700 kinds of social engineering to make sure that everyone ends up in the same place. And so he

00:11:44.880 acknowledges that actually his faith is working towards a different end goal entirely. It's not

00:11:52.260 just a different means by which to accomplish the same goal as Orthodox Christianity. It's a 0.77

00:11:57.840 different idea entirely. And that's why when people say, you know, I want to take a little bit of

00:12:02.300 liberation theology. I want to take a little bit of progressive Christianity and keep my 0.95

00:12:07.100 Orthodox views about sexuality or whatever. It doesn't work that way. You've got a completely 1.00

00:12:12.380 different timeline of eternity that you were talking about when you were talking to someone

00:12:17.440 like Ibra Max Kendi, who, like you said, Daryl, isn't, he uses this word Christian, but Christ means

00:12:23.800 anointed one, chosen one. It's not Jesus's last name. And so what does it even mean to be a

00:12:28.820 Christian? If you don't believe that Jesus was the Christ, therefore the one who died for our sins. 0.68

00:12:35.980 And so people just need to see, it's a different gospel. It's a different religion.

00:12:40.180 It's a totally different gospel. Totally different gospel. You're exactly right, Adam. It is a

00:12:44.780 religion. And see, here's the thing about a guy like Kendi. When you listen to him or anyone else who

00:12:51.640 preaches a, quote, gospel, unquote, of anti-racism, what he totally avoids, if you listen closely,

00:13:01.000 they will presuppose that there's systemic racism, but they never get, their apologetic never includes

00:13:09.100 a root cause for that. So the root cause is always a societal or a material, what they would describe

00:13:19.400 as a material inequity. And it always has to do with power, wealth, positions of authority,

00:13:28.580 things like that. But what an anti-racist like Kendi never gets to, he never gets to the sin issue.

00:13:36.080 He never gets to the root cause of why these situations in his mind exist. Now, I don't

00:13:44.300 subscribe to the reality of systemic racism. I do not believe there's systemic racism in America

00:13:48.540 as we sit here today. But what Kendi does in arguing for that systemic racism exists,

00:13:55.180 he never gets to the root cause. So he has no biblical anthropology within his theology of

00:13:59.980 liberation theology. Liberation theology always starts with the symptom, never the cause.

00:14:06.420 So there's always, but see, and this is how liberation theologians make their money,

00:14:10.440 because there are always going to be symptoms. And there's always going to be symptoms because of

00:14:14.740 sin. But liberation theology never addresses the sin issue. It's always the symptom. So the solution

00:14:22.760 to them is always something material. We have to create these opportunities. We have to look at

00:14:29.080 what's happening in Oakland right now. I just read it before we came on the air. Oakland, California,

00:14:33.820 now they're giving $500 payments to black people. But if you're white or some other ethnicity,

00:14:40.300 you don't get the money. But see, that is the kind of solution that liberation theology,

00:14:46.280 critical race theory, and they're closely joined, point to. It's never spiritual. So there's no

00:14:52.140 biblical anthropology at all within liberation theology. Yes. And it tries to, or it purports to try

00:14:59.600 to right historic wrongs or what it perceives as historic wrongs with current injustice, which is

00:15:06.140 exactly why Ibram X. Kendi would actually say that is, that's a good policy. Because what you're trying

00:15:14.540 to do is to make sure that what he would call historically marginalized groups, black and brown

00:15:19.400 communities are given opportunities and white people aren't. So maybe we can finally achieve some 0.99

00:15:25.140 place of total equality of outcome. And so he doesn't actually believe that discriminating against,

00:15:33.020 say, an Asian person or a white person in admissions when it comes to colleges or, you know, giving more

00:15:39.160 money to black communities than white communities. He doesn't see that as racist. One, because he defines 0.96

00:15:44.640 racism as prejudice versus power. And he would say only white people are prejudice plus power. And only white

00:15:51.180 people have that. And also he would say, well, this is just the way to balance the scales to make

00:15:57.700 everything equal. Virgil, can you talk to, to the people who are saying, okay, I get why maybe that's

00:16:04.060 wrong, but aren't, aren't we called to do something for the oppressed? Like, shouldn't we care about

00:16:10.100 equality? What's wrong with trying to close these gaps? Like, how do you explain to them? Yes, but no.

00:16:16.740 Yeah, I, I totally get where you're going with that. The, the idea that he shared in his talk was

00:16:23.340 that, that policies that reproduce racial inequity are racist. Now there's a whole lot wrong with that

00:16:32.440 statement. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of presuppositions embedded in that statement, but then

00:16:37.160 he said policies that reduce racial inequity are anti-racist. Right. What he fails to, what he fails to

00:16:43.940 mention is that in order to, in order to, in order to enact equity, you're going to have to be unfair

00:16:51.280 to another group. And when you're unfair to that other group, that's racist. And so it's racism in

00:16:59.720 an effort to fix racism to the point Daryl made earlier, never addresses the root problem. Here's

00:17:05.460 the other thing. If we take a step back, even from those statements, and that's this, we act as if

00:17:11.440 inequity is, is, is the greatest sin. The, the, the reality is that inequity is a part of human,

00:17:19.260 of the human condition. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm as, as tall as I am. I'm five foot six. I'm a short guy,

00:17:26.220 Allie. And, and guess what? I don't get the same, this, I won't ever be equity. My height will never

00:17:32.300 be, will never equate to a LeBron James. And because of the benefits of the inequity that he has,

00:17:37.960 there's going to be some advantages that he has that I don't. Yeah. That's called the,

00:17:41.980 that's called the human condition. Yeah. If everywhere we look, we try to, we try to,

00:17:46.360 to, to write all every inequity where we're going to find ourselves on an, on an, on a rabbit trail

00:17:52.740 that never, never ends. I mean, it's just problematic on every level. It, it definitely is. And I know that

00:17:58.140 you guys have talked about Thomas Sowell's book quest for cosmic justice, where he calls what is now

00:18:03.440 called social justice, actually cosmic justice. You're trying to rewrite the rules of the game to

00:18:08.800 try to make everyone end up equal. And I want to talk about these phrases or these terms really

00:18:15.360 quickly, equity versus equality, because I think it gets confusing because there's a biblical

00:18:20.640 definition. There's good equity, which I think we all agree is equal application of the law. You got

00:18:26.920 the same rules for everyone. Wherever you end up, you end up. That is what we would consider fairness,

00:18:32.520 no partiality in something that would honor God. That's, that's righteousness. Equality of outcome

00:18:39.980 is something that we don't believe can be achieved outside of tyranny, but we're seeing some kind of

00:18:46.520 switch by these, what you guys call social justicians to say that actually equity is not everyone starting

00:18:54.420 with the same rules. Equity is everyone ending up in the same place. And so how someone like

00:19:01.900 Heber Max Kendi or Kamala Harris, because she put out that video saying equity means everyone ended up 0.99

00:19:06.520 in the same place, how they just, they, they explain it like, okay, well, if you're a short, a short

00:19:12.460 person, we need to give you a box this tall. If you're a medium person, we need to give you a box

00:19:16.480 this tall. If you're a tall person, we need to give you a box this tall, then everyone can see over

00:19:21.080 the fence. And it's fair. The problem is when you start assuming when it's not as clear as height,

00:19:27.860 when it's something like perceived privilege, when it's something like your white privilege or what

00:19:34.780 you may have experienced because someone who looks like you was a slave 200 years ago, and we're going 0.98

00:19:40.480 to give you your proverbial boxes and opportunities and money based on what we perceive to be your

00:19:46.640 privileges and oppression. Well, that's when you get something like Oakland, that the 10,000 people

00:19:52.420 living in poverty who are white in Oakland don't get the same kind of payment that someone who might

00:19:59.320 be richer than them, but is black get because of their skin color, because of perceived oppression and the

00:20:05.220 perceived height of their metaphorical box. And that is why this whole idea of trying to achieve equal

00:20:10.540 outcomes by paying people money and the social engineering, it just, it doesn't work. It always leads to some

00:20:18.480 kind of unfairness. Is that correct, Daryl? No, you're absolutely correct, Allie. And, you know,

00:20:22.600 I find it interesting, you know, you bring up the whole slavery narrative, which incessantly comes up

00:20:28.520 in situations of inequity and inequality and things like that. But as much as I've studied the subject of

00:20:35.600 slavery in America, I've never come across anyone who's been recorded, any former slave who was recorded

00:20:43.240 as saying they wanted to be treated fairly because of their skin color. No, no, no, no, no former slave

00:20:51.300 ever argued that. I mean, you can go from the 1800s all the way up to the civil rights era in the 1960s.

00:20:57.200 The, the, the equality movement of the civil rights era was an Imago Dei movement. It was an Imago Dei 0.83

00:21:03.420 movement. They wanted to be treated equally in, uh, under the Imago Dei, under Genesis 127, which even,

00:21:10.440 and we know this from Romans one, even a slave knew this, a slave inherently knew that their

00:21:17.400 enslavement was wrong, that it was inhumane because they were born and created with, with, 1.00

00:21:22.000 with the bearing the image of God. Uh, no slave ever argued. They wanted treatment on that basis,

00:21:27.940 not on the basis that they were brown, black or black. That was never the case. But here you,

00:21:33.100 here you have, uh, uh, uh, this is amazing to me. Here you have people who, who are profiting monetarily

00:21:39.840 off of a legacy like that. They're, they're profiting monetarily off the legacy of slavery

00:21:45.000 and thinking that, Oh yeah, for $500, that's great. So, so, so on the one hand, an anti-racist

00:21:51.400 will say, well, slavery was horrible. It was, it was abhorrent. It's inexcusable, but yeah,

00:21:57.360 because, because there was slavery, I'm going to cut you this check. It's not cutting the check.

00:22:02.280 It's accepting the check. So if you're so, if, if, if you're so adamantly against or, or anti-American

00:22:09.160 because of America's legacy of slavery, the thing for you to do is to not accept that money.

00:22:14.320 You don't, you don't leverage a, a, a, a, a, a historical, uh, sin like slavery and cash in

00:22:22.220 on it. If you really want to make a point and look at what's happening in Everston, Illinois

00:22:26.120 right now in Everston, Illinois, they recently passed legislation to what they call grant reparations

00:22:32.900 in housing discrimination. They're, they're doing the same thing. Now it doesn't matter now

00:22:39.380 whether the person can afford the house. What matters is, are you black? Do you live in a house? 0.98

00:22:44.160 Check, check, check, check, check. I can tell you right now, our, our black ancestors are rolling

00:22:49.600 over in their graves over how black people are profiting from their misery. 1.00

00:22:57.800 Yeah. I think that people in the, I got a tweet saying, you know, surely I said something about 0.98

00:23:05.780 God hates partiality in, in response to that, um, the Oakland policy and someone said, you know,

00:23:12.360 this is cherry picking. Surely you can find some Bible verses that support, you know, closing the gap

00:23:19.460 of so-called anti-black poverty or whatever they said, using their social justice terms that my

00:23:25.940 brain just sometimes can't compute. Um, and the reality is, is that social justice as we see it

00:23:33.200 today. And I want to get into this Lecrae saying that if you're against social justice, you're against

00:23:37.980 God. But, um, as we see it today, it functions on partiality. That's what it does. It says we have to

00:23:45.200 be partial towards this one group in order to make up for the partiality of the past, not looking at

00:23:51.240 people as individuals saying, okay, uh, you know, you're guilty of this. You're not guilty of this.

00:23:57.220 You actually oppressed this person. You were oppressed. But again, we're making assumptions

00:24:01.300 based simply on, uh, on what people look like. And that leads to further discrimination. And like

00:24:08.640 Thomas Sowell says, the policies that are being proposed to try to fix black poverty have been

00:24:14.620 tried in every country and many countries on earth, but they have never, ever worked. It's never led to

00:24:21.400 liberation, not in Zimbabwe, not in Venezuela, not in China, not in any of the countries that it has

00:24:28.760 been tried in. It's only led to devastation for those who oppose the revolution and the revolutionaries

00:24:35.060 themselves. And yet we see Christians, Christians who we, you know, a few years ago would have said,

00:24:40.700 yes, we are on the same page with the gospel. We've got the same theology now saying we need to embrace

00:24:46.240 this kind of new fangled social justice. And if we don't, we're not just wrong, but as Lecrae said in a

00:24:52.780 tweet, which he deleted. And so I can no longer find, um, he said that we're against God. If we're against

00:24:58.620 social justice, like Virgil, what do you think, what do you think that means?

00:25:03.440 I think he was right in that he's serving a false God known as social justice. And so, yeah,

00:25:10.140 the false God of social justice, uh, would be upset by the fact that, that you aren't beholden or bowing

00:25:17.240 the knee to, to racist ideas. Uh, in fact, uh, it was Ibram Kendi who, who said that, that capitalism

00:25:25.400 and racism are conjoined twins, that, that, that if you have one, you have the other. And it's

00:25:32.520 interesting that someone who's getting the benefit of, of $20,000 an hour talks, uh, his books being

00:25:39.500 sold on Amazon and the like to the tune of hundreds of thousands of, of, of, of, of books that, that he

00:25:46.520 would be upset about capitalism. It's one of those things that's great for him, but not for you. Good,

00:25:52.220 good for me, but not for me. It's kind of the thought process behind that, but it's, it's insane

00:25:57.880 to see and think about how, to the point you made earlier, Allie, folks who once held to orthodox

00:26:04.260 biblical Christian views are now being exposed to the fact that we're now seeing from a standpoint

00:26:09.740 of them being exposed that they, they really don't believe in the God of the Bible. I, I, I've said

00:26:15.880 this before. I'll say this before. And I'll say this again. I really think that the people who,

00:26:21.280 who got on this train, the train of, of, of, of, of maybe a hip hop culture being cool in

00:26:27.260 Christianity, they got on the train of reform theology being kind of in, in vogue, got on a

00:26:33.520 train rather than having a transformation that really took place in their heart. And so now the

00:26:39.100 train has moved and what's happening in culture is the train has shifted culturally speaking to this

00:26:43.560 idea of wokeism. So they're just now on the next train. This is now the next train car that's moving

00:26:48.920 that they want to jump on and leap on for their own personal advantage. And, and it's problematic.

00:26:53.900 And it really exposes, unfortunately, as scripture says, they, they were, they, they, they left from

00:26:59.360 us because they were not of us.

00:27:01.500 Allie, can I ask something quickly to what Virgil just said? Because Virgil just made an excellent

00:27:05.900 point. Talking about jumping on the train. See, the church is guilty of jumping on the same train

00:27:10.640 and the church is guilty of jumping on this train because the church doesn't know what the gospel

00:27:15.120 says. The church is being this whole social gospel. So just social justice movement is leveraging the

00:27:21.540 church's ignorance on what the gospel is. The church has, has in some way, shape or form,

00:27:28.380 they have been convinced to think into thinking that the gospel is a message of material equity

00:27:35.320 and equality and where everything should be fair and everyone should have the same thing. No one

00:27:40.660 should have an advantage over something. That's not the gospel. That is not the gospel. Listen,

00:27:45.840 the gospel is a message of salvation from, I've said this repeatedly, is it a message of salvation

00:27:51.620 from sin? Christ didn't come to save society. He came to save sinners. He came to save sinners and

00:27:58.200 the church is being sucked in to this black hole of equality and equity and because they don't know

00:28:06.040 what those terms mean biblically. Yeah. And until they understand what those terms mean biblically,

00:28:11.320 they're going to continue, the other side is going to continue to use those terms and then get us all

00:28:16.300 emotively caught up into this, into this movement that's seeking fairness and justice and equality when

00:28:22.940 the gospel is about none of that. Yeah. And I, well, I want to, I want to clarify some things and I'm wondering

00:28:29.560 if you can do that, Daryl, because I'm, I'm hearing in my head, people saying, well, shouldn't,

00:28:34.780 aren't Christians supposed to care for the vulnerable in society? Like, shouldn't we actually

00:28:39.660 care for oppression? And as you talked about, Daryl, the civil rights movement wasn't a Mago Day

00:28:46.220 movement. It was saying these people were, are made in the image of God and they should be treated as

00:28:51.680 such true equity being treated fairly under the law based on the inherent value that God has given them

00:28:57.540 equal to the value of anyone who is white or any other skin color. Same with the abolitionist

00:29:02.940 movement. Those were gospel believing, Bible believing Christians whose theology was based on the idea

00:29:10.940 that you want to talk about equality. We are all equal in that we're all dead in sin apart from Christ.

00:29:15.840 Amen. And then once we are alive in Christ, we are all brothers and sisters and we're equal in that way.

00:29:21.180 And we want to see the manifestation of that kind of equal treatment, not equal outcomes.

00:29:27.540 So can you, Daryl, talk about what does it look like for a Christian to actually seek justice and

00:29:34.260 love mercy according to God's word in a way that glorifies God versus what the social justice

00:29:40.900 advocates say that we need to advocate for in the way of seeking justice and loving mercy?

00:29:46.000 That Micah 6.8, it's a great verse, but it's misused a lot.

00:29:50.680 Yeah, yeah. That's the pet verse of the social justice is Micah 6.8. But what we have to

00:29:55.940 remember is, again, this is what we spend a lot of time on the Just Thinking Podcast doing,

00:30:00.700 which is defining terms. So I think that Christians need to be willing to say, hey,

00:30:04.300 when you say justice, what do you mean? When you say equality, what do you mean?

00:30:08.460 There's no harm in asking questions because I promise you the social justice does not mean

00:30:12.220 the same thing when they say justice and equality that Scripture means. When you look in the Scripture,

00:30:17.260 justice is always attached to the righteousness of God, to God's character. So when we look biblically

00:30:22.680 of what the word justice means, it is to do what is right in God's eyes. It is to do what is righteous

00:30:29.960 in God's eyes. Justice in the worldly sense, in the sense of the social justician and the liberation

00:30:35.840 theologian, justice has to do with outcome. It always has to do with outcome. So for the social justician,

00:30:42.480 if the outcome is the preferred outcome that they desire, that's justice. But if the outcome of a situation

00:30:50.200 is not what they desire, that's injustice. We saw that with the Trayvon Martin situation. We saw that

00:30:56.440 we're seeing that now with the George Floyd situation as that trial begins to get underway.

00:31:02.960 But with God, in God's economy, justice has nothing to do with outcome. You know, Ali,

00:31:08.980 you used the phrase earlier, closing the gap. You know, let me give you a biblical example where

00:31:15.160 someone tried to close the gap where we have a great distinction between equality and equity. Well,

00:31:19.520 we have in 1 Kings 3, we had two women who came to Solomon asking King Solomon to resolve a dispute

00:31:26.160 between them with regard to whose baby truly, which mother truly had rights to the baby. One mother said 0.93

00:31:37.820 her baby had accused the other mother of rolling over on her baby and killing her own baby with this 1.00

00:31:42.140 one baby is left. So we have two mothers here who are asking Solomon to close this maternal gap.

00:31:48.880 One of us is a mother, one of us isn't. Solomon ruled with equity. Equity seeks truth regardless of

00:31:58.100 outcome. Solomon sought the truth. He sought the truth knowing that one of those women was going to

00:32:03.160 go home without a baby. What equality does, equality emphasizes outcome without regard to truth.

00:32:10.140 You see? So we have in society today, we have a segment even within the church

00:32:16.100 who are conflating those two terms. They're conflating equality with equity and vice versa.

00:32:23.740 But biblically, they are not the same thing. Equity emphasizes, as you said, Ali, the equal,

00:32:29.580 impartial, objective application of God's precepts and laws to everyone without regard to outcome.

00:32:36.180 So equality inverts that. Equality is an outcomes emphasis that gets to the truth later if it gets

00:32:43.600 to the truth at all. But up front, we just need to level the playing field and close the gap. And that

00:32:48.200 is not biblical. Yeah. And it gets very confusing, I think, because obviously these are very similar

00:32:53.900 sounding terms. And like you said, secular social justice advocates, they kind of switch them.

00:32:59.840 What secular social justice advocates mean when they say equity, like you said, is equal outcome. So it

00:33:06.580 would be cutting the baby in half and giving them to both. And so, but what we want in equity is

00:33:14.480 equality of, you know, equal application, equality of application, equality in that sense. But they mean

00:33:25.260 equal outcome. So we're talking, we both are talking about equity and equality, but we're switching

00:33:31.060 them. We're talking about two different things. So the thing is, it's like, okay, well, it's not just

00:33:36.360 one of those things of who is right. We can see the kind of new fangled equity. I think Zimbabwe is such

00:33:43.940 a good example. I've got a friend who is an immigrant from Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe was a terrible

00:33:49.120 dictator there. And he made a lot of promises that we're kind of hearing from the so-called anti-racism

00:33:54.940 movement here that, hey, these white farmers in Zimbabwe, they are taking your land, indigenous 0.96

00:34:01.200 people, Robert Mugabe said, and we've got to get our land back. And so we can finally have so-called

00:34:06.120 equity. We can finally have fairness and we can have reparation. So let's take down these white 1.00

00:34:11.060 commercial farmers. And so he riled people up, they confiscated the land, they burned their farms,

00:34:16.980 and they made sure that white people weren't able to commercially farm and that the indigenous

00:34:21.620 people of Zimbabwe had their land back. Well, according to my immigrant friends,

00:34:27.340 what happened then? Well, the people who confiscated the farms didn't know how to commercially farm in

00:34:32.620 the same way that the people that owned the farms. And so Zimbabwe went from what was called the bread

00:34:37.180 basket of Africa, having a lot of wealth for countries in Africa to being one of the poorest

00:34:42.560 countries in Africa. They still have not recovered from the communist liberation Marxist revolution that

00:34:48.920 Robert Mugabe waged in the name of liberating the black indigenous people in Zimbabwe. And that is

00:34:54.420 the pattern that we see over and over again. That kind of equity always leads to blood. It always leads

00:35:04.260 to war. And yet we have people like, for example, Jamar Tisby, who I think a lot of evangelicals say

00:35:10.600 that they really respect. He is now, he's linking arms with someone who is purporting that kind of

00:35:16.020 ideology by joining the organization of Ibram X. Gindi and then telling other black Christians 0.95

00:35:20.800 that they need to leave their churches and kind of do what he's done. And so I would love to hear

00:35:25.960 either one of you kind of give your reaction to that and what you think. I'll jump in and say a

00:35:32.860 couple of things. One, I wanted to touch just briefly on what you just shared. And I think what's

00:35:38.920 happening with culture is that you're seeing and hearing to the point, Ali, that you just made

00:35:44.440 is these terms, equality and equity are being transposed. And what's often meant is simply

00:35:51.900 outcomes. When you hear it in culture, I think what your listeners have got to keep in mind is,

00:35:58.940 are they talking about equal outcomes? When they use the term equity or equality, are they talking

00:36:04.040 about equal outcomes? If they're talking about equal outcomes, that is absolutely wrong. If they're

00:36:10.120 talking about treating people with the dignity that is inherent in them as a result of the fact that

00:36:15.000 they're image bearers of God, that is equality. And that's right. That's correct. So every time you

00:36:21.260 hear outcome, you need to stop, pause and go, okay, whether they use equality or equity, you need to

00:36:27.860 listen to the piece about outcomes. As it pertains to Jamar Tisby, I'm not surprised. We've watched since

00:36:33.900 the election of Donald Trump and the statements that he made about the fact that he could no longer

00:36:39.580 worship with the people who were part of his white congregation, though they had never demonstrated

00:36:44.220 anything in outrage or anger toward him directly. But the fact that they voted for Donald Trump,

00:36:50.400 he could no longer worship with them. To see him amplify his voice with regard to his books,

00:36:58.900 The Color of Compromise and other books that he's written about this issue. Everything that he's

00:37:04.280 written has leaned in the direction of liberation theology. So no one should be surprised that the

00:37:10.960 trajectory and direction of where he's going leads him to believe that since the gospel was insufficient to

00:37:18.500 help him at his church, that the gospel is now insufficient. And now he's going about by seeking other

00:37:24.400 solutions. So now those solutions include political solutions. They include economic solutions. They

00:37:30.520 include policy decisions to fix the temporal earth in order to bring about the eschatological

00:37:38.400 result that you mentioned, Ali, which is the utopia that they believe that they're going to create by 0.80

00:37:45.380 their anti-racist policies, which is actually racism being leveraged in a direction that's favorable

00:37:52.960 for the person of color. And Ali, just to add to what Virgil just said, I just think it's the height 0.99

00:37:58.880 of arrogance to think that you have the right to not only leave a church, but then advocate for

00:38:06.000 others leaving the church simply because you got your feelings hurt. Essentially, that's what we're

00:38:11.020 talking about here. When you talk about this whole Leave Loud initiative, for instance, that TISB

00:38:17.500 is involved in, to have the arrogance, to have the hubris to say that because your ego isn't being stroked

00:38:28.800 enough, because you're not being recognized by your white or multi-ethnic brethren, your blackness, your

00:38:36.540 sociocultural experiences, your narrative, your story isn't being acknowledged and recognized within the local

00:38:46.540 church level is a reason for you to leave the church as if the church was about you. I mean,

00:38:52.060 that's the height of arrogance here. When I look at, for instance, what Peter says here in Acts chapter 10,

00:38:58.660 verse 34 and 35, Peter says, I most certainly understand that God is not one to show partiality,

00:39:05.260 but in every nation, man who fears him and does what is right is welcome to him.

00:39:10.540 That's every believer is welcome to God. Now, the church belongs, I think we need a reminder here

00:39:17.720 that the church belongs to God, not to us, not to an individual. The church belongs to God and to

00:39:23.660 think that someone would have the arrogance to say, oh yeah, I'm leaving and you should get out. I'm

00:39:29.680 getting out and you should get out too. Let's leave loud. I mean, how arrogant is that? How arrogant is

00:39:35.920 that posture for someone, especially for someone who has no right to God's grace or mercy, but because

00:39:42.620 God is gracious and merciful has saved that person from an eternity in hell. I mean, what arrogance is

00:39:48.140 that? Yeah. And you know, I know that we all, all three of us get criticized of using critical race

00:39:55.540 theory as a boogeyman, that it's not anywhere in the church. This is just something I saw someone the

00:40:01.260 other day say criticizing critical race theory is just a way to cover up for your Jim Crow

00:40:06.420 evangelicalism, whatever that means. Well, this is a really great example of actually how the tenets

00:40:12.980 of critical race theory, as you guys know, are dividing the church, seeing as everyone who has a

00:40:18.540 certain melanin count in their skin as being on the side of the oppressed, everyone who has the melanin

00:40:24.940 count of another kind in their skin being on the side of the oppressor, therefore the oppressor owes 0.94

00:40:29.700 the oppressed. The oppressed is going to show the oppressor what they did wrong until the oppressor

00:40:34.840 agrees to the terms that the so-called oppressed people have laid out for them. Then maybe I guess

00:40:39.440 we can reach some kind of reconciliation. I want to read a passage from Romans 2 that just, that shows

00:40:46.300 that critical race theory and the liberation theology that flows from it, this oppressed versus oppressor

00:40:51.600 based on skin color and these categories of people, not based on what you've done, but based on what

00:40:56.740 you look like is not going to fly with God. It's not going to fly before the throne of God. And that's

00:41:02.120 why, like we've said so many times, it's a different gospel. It's very similar to the passage that you

00:41:07.360 just read in Acts, Daryl. This is Romans 2, 6 through 11. I think I can call it the elect standard

00:41:15.000 version. Is that what you guys call it? So it says, verse 6, he will render each one, each one according to

00:41:23.960 his works. To those who by patience and well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will

00:41:29.400 give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey

00:41:33.660 unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. So those are the two categories that we've got. We

00:41:39.040 don't see any other kind of categories. We will be, there will be a tribulation and distress for

00:41:44.380 every human being who does evil to the Jew first and also to the Greek, but glory and honor and peace

00:41:51.040 for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. And so we

00:41:59.380 hear continually from social justice advocates that merit, that the idea of merit, that rewarding

00:42:08.040 people according to their works is actually racist in some ways because you're not making up for these

00:42:14.460 gaps. But that's exactly what we see will happen in eternity. So I think one of the consequences of

00:42:20.380 CRT and liberation theology infiltrating the church is that you get black people being preached one 0.99

00:42:26.220 gospel of, hey, you're oppressed and Jesus has come to liberate you. You get a message of repentance

00:42:33.180 to white people. Hey, you've got to repent for the sins of the pastor or whatever. And they both end up

00:42:40.000 not getting the same gospel. And therefore, there is actually no power. There's no taking down of the

00:42:48.160 dividing wall of hostility because they're two different gospels. They're both false gospels.

00:42:52.960 They're both saying that they're going to bring each other together, but neither of them have the

00:42:56.500 power to do that. It's a gospel of grievance and resentment that's only going to make that wall of

00:43:01.780 hostility higher, right? Absolutely.

00:43:05.000 Absolutely. Go ahead, Bert.

00:43:07.480 I was just going to say, Ali, you alluded to the important verse of Scripture in Ephesians chapter 2

00:43:15.860 verse 13, but now it says, in Christ Jesus, you who are far off have been brought near by the blood

00:43:24.500 of Christ, not through critical race theory, not through social justice, not through intersectionality,

00:43:30.840 not through a political movement. You've been brought near. You've been reconciled both to God,

00:43:35.900 the Father, and to one another through the blood of Christ. That is the gospel. That's the gospel.

00:43:42.400 Right, right.

00:43:43.840 Yeah, see, Virgil, you're absolutely right. That is the gospel. But what people like Kendi and other

00:43:50.120 liberation theologians do, they reduce what you, Ali, and Virgil just talked about via Romans 6 and

00:43:56.520 then Ephesians 2. They reduce that gospel to just another system of moralism. Well, let's feed the

00:44:03.420 poor. Let's help the homeless. Let's do this. Let's do that. That's moralism. And moralism is not

00:44:09.220 salvific. Moralism is not salvific, okay? And I fear that we have countless Christians, 1.00

00:44:17.160 countless professing Christians in the church today, who really don't subscribe to a biblical

00:44:21.900 gospel, as you both just alluded to in your respective passages that you just read. But they

00:44:27.840 subscribe to a moralistic gospel, where works are salvific. Works is the testament of being truly in

00:44:37.760 Christ, as opposed to being in Christ by faith, being in the church by faith, being saved by faith.

00:44:44.580 You know, when you think about it, Ali, the gospel is a message of cosmic inequality.

00:44:52.340 It's a message of cosmic inequality. And now I say that because not everybody's going to be saved.

00:44:57.320 Not everybody, like Jesus himself said, not everyone who says to me, see, the liberation

00:45:00.920 theologian will say to Jesus, well, Lord, every person who acknowledges you as Lord, or who called

00:45:08.660 you Lord, should enter into heaven. What's the problem? Aren't you a God of equality? Aren't you

00:45:15.240 a God of equality? But just like you just read, Ali, in Romans 6, no. The gospel itself is a message

00:45:20.320 of cosmic inequality. Not everybody's going to be saved. And even in heaven, even in heaven, things won't

00:45:26.000 be equal. Right, right. That's something that I say a lot. And I would love for you to break that down a

00:45:30.900 little bit more, because people get very perturbed when you say, look, there's actually no guarantee of

00:45:36.960 equality of outcome in heaven. Of course, we're all going to be in heaven, and we're all going to be in

00:45:42.220 perfect peace and joy, and all of that will be perfectly satisfied in Christ. But what do you mean when you

00:45:47.780 say there's not going to be equality in heaven? Well, to that person, I would just ask this question.

00:45:52.060 Whose heaven is it? Whose heaven is it? I'm looking at Revelation 22, verse 9. But he said

00:46:02.720 to me, do not—let me start at verse 8. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I

00:46:07.520 heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said

00:46:12.880 to me, do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren, the prophets, and of those

00:46:18.760 who heed the words of this book, worship God. Okay? Heaven is going to be a place where you worship

00:46:26.940 God. Okay? You're, you're, you're, you're, we have, we have, listen, equality has never been a biblical

00:46:36.120 concept. Okay? Never. That, that idea is totally disintegrated by the, by mere virtue of the fact that

00:46:44.300 there's God and then there's us. There's God and then there's not God. Okay? So just

00:46:52.300 in, in, in, in, in, within that basic, uh, uh, reality right there, we have inequality. So for someone

00:47:00.260 to say, well, uh, yeah, yeah, there's not going to be equality in heaven as if there should be.

00:47:04.980 Okay? You're, you're going to be in heaven. If you are going to be in heaven, you're going to be

00:47:09.960 there solely by the grace and mercy of God and nothing else. Okay? So, so, so, so this conversation

00:47:17.440 about, uh, where someone will get perturbed about there not being equality in heaven, it shouldn't

00:47:22.640 even come up because again, you're, you're going to be so busy worshiping God in your glorified state.

00:47:30.400 Okay? Equality won't even come across your mind. You're going to be so enthralled and engrossed

00:47:36.700 with worshiping God in his heaven and by whom, and only by whom your presence is there to begin

00:47:44.900 with. Okay? So let me, go ahead, go ahead, Virg. Let me, let me, let me throw this into what,

00:47:50.640 what Daryl is saying because it amplifies the differences between the God of the Bible that

00:47:56.580 Daryl is explaining and expressing the conditions of, of our, of our worship of him, of our love

00:48:02.400 for him, of how we interact with him. He is sovereign above all things. And, and, and as a

00:48:07.220 result, we operate on that basis. It's his heaven. It's his church. Uh, he is Lord of all, he is King

00:48:12.720 of Kings and Lord of Lords. We operate from that vantage point. If you think about the, the, the,

00:48:17.820 the social justice God, the liberation theologians God, uh, that Kendi represented, think about what

00:48:25.380 he, what he represented. He, he, he, he either had Jesus as a revolutionary taking care of the

00:48:31.900 oppressed. So really he, he was, he was beholden to, to, to man and man's condition or the other

00:48:37.820 issue that, that, that, that he presented was a moralistic therapeutic deist Jesus. So this,

00:48:44.720 this is a Jesus that is, is only going to, going to make you act right, right? He's going to,

00:48:49.780 he's going to force you to act right. That was the, that, that was his framework for, for the

00:48:54.400 Christian Jesus. In other words, he had no real idea about who the God of the Bible actually is

00:49:01.240 or, or how the God of the Bible interacts with creation. And, and for, for, for someone like a

00:49:07.480 Jamal Tisby to, to make a decision to follow that kind of leadership is mind blowing. But at the same

00:49:14.040 time, it's incredibly revealing as well that, that where, that the, the direction that he's headed

00:49:19.360 is not one leaning into orthodoxy, but away from orthodoxy.

00:49:24.480 Excellent point, Bert.

00:49:25.700 Yes, definitely. And, and as you're saying that I'm thinking about, critics will call us divisive

00:49:33.680 for talking about this. And they'll call someone like Jamal Tisby, who is encouraging people to leave

00:49:38.120 their churches unifying. Um, it's divisive to disagree. We're told with this kind of divisive

00:49:46.080 theology with these kind of divisive ideologies, but we're told that it's actually racial reconciliation,

00:49:52.140 uh, for Jamal Tisby and for people to leave their predominantly white churches and to put some kind

00:50:00.700 of burden on white Christians that they don't place on themselves. There's a couple of things I want to

00:50:06.000 say, cause you guys said so many good things. It's actually going back to something that Virgil said

00:50:11.500 first, and then I'll go to something that, uh, Daryl said and kind of tie it together that, and I don't

00:50:17.680 even remember exactly what made me think about this, but I think it's important to realize when we're

00:50:21.880 talking about that, there's no guarantee of equality, that you can't guarantee equality of outcomes

00:50:26.720 outside of tyranny, outside of injustice, outside of discriminating against one, one group. As Thomas

00:50:32.320 Soule talks about so much in quest for, uh, cosmic justice, there's another book that he wrote that

00:50:37.440 really just this phrase alone, the whole book was very eyeopening, but this phrase alone made me

00:50:42.940 realize that, wow, this is, this misunderstanding is the subject of so many just fallacies when we're

00:50:49.380 talking about systemic racism and things like that, that disparities do not equal discrimination.

00:50:55.640 So people assume that a gap between, uh, you know, white graduation rates and black graduation rates,

00:51:02.320 means that that is evidence of systemic discrimination, systemic racism, but that

00:51:08.800 would be based on your definition again, of equity, meaning equal outcomes rather than the equal

00:51:15.960 opportunities or equal, uh, application of the law. And what people say when they point to those kinds

00:51:22.920 of disparities to try to prove systemic discrimination between white Americans and black Americans,

00:51:28.780 they almost always leave out that in all those categories comparing white and black Americans,

00:51:33.520 there's Asian Americans over here that are doing better in all of those categories than white people

00:51:40.100 are. So again, if the tenet of critical race theory is true, not just that America is systemically

00:51:46.340 racist, but that it upholds white hegemony and white supremacy, that the, all of the systems are only made

00:51:53.320 for white success. Then the category of Asian people being successful really kind of throws

00:52:00.780 a wrench into that. And that's just one example, just a practical example of how this idea of

00:52:06.840 oppressed versus oppressor based on white versus black actually obscures, not just the gospel, but also

00:52:13.080 your ability to see things rightly. And therefore your ability to define and apply justice and true

00:52:20.200 equity because you can't see things as they really are. You're trying to fit everything like

00:52:25.560 the Atlanta shooter, uh, into your framework and make it about things that it's not because

00:52:31.340 you have to. And that's what people realize CRT is an entire world view. It takes over everything

00:52:38.020 you think. It's not just a philosophy you can pick and choose from. Right.

00:52:42.580 Ali, I just want to say, amen, amen, amen to everything you just said. You are reiterating some points

00:52:47.900 that Virgil and I brought up in our three and a half hour episode on critical race theory.

00:52:52.560 Yes, it was really good. And I really encourage people to go listen to it.

00:52:56.880 Thank you. Yeah. Critical race theory, if they can get away with the presuppositions that they make,

00:53:03.400 that's how they make their money. If they, because critical race theory is built upon,

00:53:07.640 is a presuppositional apologetic. And if they can get away with that, if they can keep you ignorant

00:53:13.040 as to what the terms are that they use and what those terms mean, that's how they make their money.

00:53:18.700 And that's how the church churches are being sucked up into, into critical race theory, because

00:53:24.140 they don't know what is meant by the vernacular and the terms that critical race theorists use.

00:53:31.280 I mean, you look at what critical race theory argues, especially as it relates to

00:53:34.280 what they call disparities, right? Disparities. Let's take that word disparities and what a critical 0.98

00:53:40.360 race theorist means by that. A critical race theorist defines disparity, a difference as a

00:53:47.720 disparity. Okay. Every difference is a disparity. Now let's, let's, let's take, for example,

00:53:53.580 education aptitude, let's say GPA differences between black children and Asian children. Okay. 0.96

00:54:00.600 They would say that what I would see as a difference, they would see it as a disparity. But when you,

00:54:06.000 when you look at how they use the word disparity, there are intra-ethnic disparities. There are

00:54:11.200 disparities within, uh, uh, uh, between black Americans, disparities. Uh, like Virgil just gave an

00:54:18.080 example earlier. Uh, he's Virgil by height is shorter than I am. Is that a difference or is that a

00:54:24.160 disparity? If it's a disparity, if it's a disparity, how are you going to give, how are you going to give

00:54:30.220 Virgil five extra inches of height or are you going to take away from me five inches of height in order

00:54:36.500 to make that equal? Right. You see? So, so as Christians, we have to remember what Jesus said.

00:54:42.900 Jesus said, I am sending you out in the world as sheep among wolves. We have to stop pretending

00:54:48.960 that there are no wolves out here. Right. You see, because under the guise of niceness, like I said,

00:54:54.800 the Ligonier conference last week, niceness has become the sixth solo almost of, especially when

00:54:59.760 we're on reform, Chris, we have six solos. Now the sixth solo is niceness. So we've totally forgotten

00:55:04.200 what Jesus himself said. He's sending you out among wolves and we have to behave and prepare ourselves

00:55:09.840 as if what Jesus said is still true because it is. Yeah, absolutely. Virgil, can you just kind of

00:55:17.840 close this out? Reminds people of what's true and also what they can do, because a lot of times people

00:55:23.540 hear these conversations and they just get discouraged. They have friends that have fallen

00:55:26.940 into this and they just, they don't know what, they don't know what to do. They know what's true.

00:55:30.840 Maybe they don't know how to articulate it or how to talk to their pastor about it. So just give some

00:55:35.860 people some biblical encouragement in the midst of all this craziness. Yeah. Well, I, again, I, first of all,

00:55:41.780 again, thanks Allie for having us. We're always excited to join you. And so I know I speak for

00:55:46.880 Dale and myself with regard to that. I love the work that you're doing. I think, I think Christians need to be

00:55:52.680 armed with the gospel, with the message of the gospel, the life, death, burial, and resurrection

00:55:57.240 of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The fact that Jesus came, lived a perfect life,

00:56:01.540 died a death that he didn't deserve on a, on a Roman cross in an effort to be the propitiation

00:56:06.480 of our, for our sins. He, he absorbed God's wrath for the purpose of us experiencing eternal life for

00:56:14.060 those who would repent and place their faith in, in him. You want to talk about privilege? That's the

00:56:19.300 greatest privilege that we can know, right? You, you, you want, you want to talk about things being

00:56:24.340 inequitable? That, that, that's inequity. The divine giving us an opportunity to have right

00:56:30.860 relationship once again with him. That's the, that, that reconciliation that he paid for not only

00:56:35.680 reconciles us with God as if that weren't enough, and it is more than enough for eternity. What he paid

00:56:42.800 for on a cross reconciles us one to another. We don't need critical race theory. We don't need

00:56:48.360 intersectionality. We don't need social justice. We need to live out into the point that Daryl has

00:56:54.020 made, that I've made, that we've talked about in, in, in, in this episode, Allie, with you and on

00:56:58.920 numerous episodes of our podcast, what, what they, what they need to understand is the full breadth and

00:57:04.440 depth of the gospel. The gospel's application doesn't just prepare you for heaven, but it also

00:57:10.080 transforms you so that you have a, that there's a sanctifying work that happens in the life of the

00:57:15.900 believer so that we relate to one another differently. We see one another with the true

00:57:20.400 lens of the gospel, with the lens that God intends for us so that we treat one another with love,

00:57:26.000 dignity, and respect as a result, not based upon someone's ethnic makeup, someone's, the level of

00:57:32.300 melanin in one's skin, but based upon the true nature of the manner in which God's created us.

00:57:37.280 Amago Dei. Amago Dei. Yep. Yes. And amen. Daryl, do you have anything to add to that?

00:57:42.620 No, I just want to thank, thank you again, Allie, for having us on. Thank you so much for being a

00:57:46.920 courageous voice out there in a space like this. And again, I just want to echo something that

00:57:51.740 Virgil said, you know, we need to remember what the gospel really is. What is the gospel about?

00:57:55.840 The gospel is a message of salvation from sin. It is a message from God directly to us that saves us

00:58:04.140 from God. There's an irony there. God gives us this message of the gospel. It is a message of

00:58:09.680 salvation from God, not from your circumstances. Okay. That is not the gospel. So again, just again,

00:58:17.620 Allie, thank you for having us on. You're a blessing and congratulations on the upcoming birth

00:58:22.020 of your second child. Thank you. Thank you guys so much for taking the time to talk to us. I do

00:58:26.200 encourage everyone to go out there and listen to you, listen to you guys' podcast, the Just Thinking

00:58:32.060 podcast. They can follow along and they can follow you on Twitter. Sometimes y'all are getting into

00:58:38.060 trouble on Twitter. And so if you like a good back and forth, you can follow both Virgil and Daryl for

00:58:43.520 that. Thank you guys so much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 26, 2021

Ep 409 ｜ The 'Equity' vs. 'Equality' Trap ｜ Guests： Darrell Harrison & Virgil Walker

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