Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 03, 2021


Ep 413 ｜ The Dead End of Deconstruction ｜ Guest： Alisa Childers


Episode Stats

Length

40 minutes

Words per Minute

184.26743

Word Count

7,471

Sentence Count

2

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

5


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 hey guys welcome to relatable i am talking to alisa childers today you guys love alisa you
00:00:15.380 loved our first conversation so i wanted to talk to her again this time i wanted to talk about how
00:00:20.540 we actually tangibly approach progressive christianity what about our friends who identify
00:00:25.480 as progressive christians how do we talk to them about the bible and these very contentious
00:00:29.380 theological issues so i hope this conversation equips and encourages you to do just that
00:00:34.880 without further ado here is alisa childers alisa thank you so much for joining me again i think
00:00:45.560 most people listening or watching know who you are and what you do but will you remind people
00:00:50.680 or tell people who may not know yeah it's great to be with you again ali i am a blogger and an author
00:00:57.160 and a podcaster youtuber and i basically write about uh the just discerning the true gospel
00:01:05.360 amidst some of these false gospels we see coming into the church and i've particularly been focusing
00:01:10.720 on progressive christianity giving a biblical answer to progressive christianity because that
00:01:16.800 is essentially the environment within which my own faith was challenged several several years ago and
00:01:22.300 so i write about that in my new book called another gospel yes so you were raised pretty conservative
00:01:28.020 evangelical you knew the gospel growing up sometimes when we hear about people going
00:01:32.680 into progressive christianity they don't really have a foundation of truth maybe their parents didn't
00:01:39.320 raise them in the church or they didn't read the bible on their own but they had a vague sense of
00:01:43.780 christian spirituality but that wasn't the case for you right like you were plugged in to the knowledge of the
00:01:49.560 truth of the gospel correct yeah in fact i had it just generally speaking i had a really good
00:01:56.520 experience with the church which like you mentioned a lot of times people who go into things like
00:02:02.020 progressive christianity they're reacting against a bad experience they had in church like maybe even
00:02:07.400 some legitimate spiritual abuse or hyper legalism something like that so yeah my my general experience
00:02:14.300 was really good my parents gave me the real gospel they lived it out the christians that i knew
00:02:19.200 were people who loved jesus they loved the bible they loved people they served people and so um yeah
00:02:25.940 it was kind of a surprise to me that i went through a time of doubt as an adult because i never thought
00:02:30.540 that would happen and just as a refresher for people uh to set up the rest of our conversation can you
00:02:38.060 describe from your own experience and just what you've studied since then what quote progressive
00:02:43.540 christianity is and why it's different from the faith that you espouse now
00:02:49.200 right so with progressive christianity it can be a bit tough to pin down and define because it's
00:02:56.260 really based on this sort of post-modern mood that's dominating our culture that's just steeped
00:03:02.380 in relativism so uh what that would mean to people who are unfamiliar with those terms is i'm sure
00:03:08.140 everybody's heard the phrase what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for
00:03:13.240 me and we shouldn't judge each other we shouldn't tell each other we're wrong because that would be
00:03:18.000 hateful or intolerant or something along those lines so because it's kind of steeped in that type of
00:03:24.280 moral relativism and just general relativism when it comes to the nature of truth it can be difficult
00:03:30.920 to pin down what it is so i think a broad view of what progressive christianity is is it's a group of
00:03:37.600 people who essentially most of them grew up in the evangelical church and they're now rethinking
00:03:44.480 everything they've ever essentially been taught about jesus in the bible so all doctrines are sort
00:03:50.740 of put on the same level so whereas we would probably say you know there are these core essentials that we
00:03:57.460 really can't agree to disagree on and still call ourselves christians in progressive christianity
00:04:02.900 everything is sort of up for grabs so you can believe in the resurrection or not but you can
00:04:08.020 still call yourself a christian and so i think the general idea of progressive christianity is that
00:04:14.560 christianity according in their mindset is progressing so and in some in some cases there are progressive
00:04:21.600 christians who even believe that god is evolving and changing in his knowledge and he is learning as the
00:04:27.900 world evolves and goes on and so therefore doctrines are going to change there really are no core
00:04:34.460 essentials that you would have to affirm in order to call yourself christian and so essentially what
00:04:39.660 that's going to end up looking like is a lot like the theological liberalism that we saw sort of cropping
00:04:45.440 up in the late 1800s early 1900s marrying those theological assumptions with this post-modernism that we see now
00:04:55.160 today so what is the point um in the mind of a progressive christian of holding on to christianity
00:05:01.880 at all when for a lot of them they would say that there's misogyny in the bible that um that god
00:05:08.760 apparently does things in the old testament that they don't like paul certainly says some things that
00:05:13.400 they don't like i imagine they take issue with jesus saying um you know quoting genesis that god made
00:05:20.120 them male and female male and female he created them in matthew 19 um if you reject so many parts
00:05:29.160 of the bible and so many parts of orthodox christianity uh why would a progressive christian still want to
00:05:36.520 say that they are a christian that they are a follower of christ what what's the point there can be a
00:05:43.480 couple of different reasons for that at least that i've seen in the reading i've done and listening to
00:05:48.120 the progressive christian podcast and so the first one would be i think maybe an instinct to hang on
00:05:55.400 to jesus they believe god exists they believe that the general idea of jesus and christianity uh is true
00:06:03.480 and so i think there could be even a an instinct to want to hang on to jesus and the the sad thing about
00:06:10.920 that though is often god and jesus both get sort of redefined to match their own sort of preferences
00:06:18.840 and what they believe is good and moral and true and so you end up with a kind of a different jesus
00:06:23.240 and a different god right the other uh response i've seen to a question like that is that there
00:06:28.600 there's a large number of progressive christians that truly believe they are the ones who are upholding
00:06:34.680 historic christianity they believe that you know this whole idea of god creating the world calling
00:06:41.560 it good and then man rebelling against god that sin separating man from a perfectly holy god then jesus
00:06:50.280 coming to earth living a sinless life taking our sins upon himself dying on the cross for our sins
00:06:57.640 being resurrected looking forward to uh the restoration of all things and the the final
00:07:03.400 judgment all of that is viewed by a large number of progressive christians as being a pagan idea in
00:07:10.840 fact brian mclaren in his book a new kind of christianity called that the greco-roman six line
00:07:16.360 narrative that he believes was imported into the church from pagan philosophers like aristotle and plato
00:07:23.800 and so he's trying to recapture what he believes is the real gospel which he defines in a whole in
00:07:30.200 a completely different way so so i think we just have to understand that in the minds of a lot of
00:07:34.760 progressive christians they actually believe they're the ones that are upholding the ancient faith
00:07:39.480 which um is it's kind of astonishing to me because when you really go back and read the ancient
00:07:44.680 fathers you read of course the new testament and you read the words of jesus like you mentioned him
00:07:49.800 referencing genesis and gender and marriage and all of these things you you get uh much closer to
00:07:56.680 what brian mclaren would call the six line uh greco-roman narrative uh that of course i don't
00:08:01.960 believe it's imported from aristotle and plato but that's sort of the view is that we're the ones who
00:08:07.640 have hijacked christianity they're the ones who are trying to bring true christianity back which is
00:08:13.000 so interesting so they kind of feel like they have had almost like a new revelation that our church
00:08:19.640 fathers did not have that the apostles did not have which reminds me of something like mormonism like a
00:08:25.720 new prophet comes along i mean mormons believe that they are upholding uh the true church that that is uh
00:08:32.600 that's really the church of jesus christ that they are upholding of course we know that it's a completely
00:08:38.360 different religion um and it almost sounds like the same mentality that a lot of progressive
00:08:43.880 christians have which i guess is the point of your book that hey this is not just a form of
00:08:48.120 christianity like even the name progressive christianity is kind of a misnomer because what
00:08:53.160 they're presenting is a different kind of faith essentially yes a different kind of gospel
00:08:58.920 but also what i'm hearing is a different kind of god you mentioned that their characterization of
00:09:05.800 jesus for example they talk a lot about jesus how they're a follower of christ and how you know
00:09:11.400 jesus was xyz social justice advocate um but they actually disagree with jesus on a variety of issues
00:09:21.080 and then they separate jesus from the god of the old testament and sometimes the god of the new
00:09:25.800 testament which means they don't actually believe in the triune god that is the defining feature of
00:09:30.760 christianity that's why christians say we don't worship the same god as jewish people
00:09:35.720 do as or as muslim people do even though these are abrahamic religions because christianity alone
00:09:41.240 worships a triune god but it sounds like progressive christianity doesn't worship a triune god they
00:09:47.160 very much separate the trinity into these three beings that aren't at all reflected in scripture is
00:09:54.440 that a correct description i do agree with that and i think the the little nuance i would bring to it is
00:10:00.840 that one thing we have to remember because you brought up mormons and other kind of uh false
00:10:06.520 movements like that they'll often use similar language that that the church has historically
00:10:12.760 used words like trinity uh words like resurrection and love and these kinds of things but they'll
00:10:20.040 completely redefine those words so you're probably not going to find a lot of progressive christians that
00:10:25.480 would admit that they're not trinitarian they would believe that they are they would use the word
00:10:29.960 trinity they would affirm that uh but you're absolutely right and i think where we see this
00:10:35.640 uh so so on display is their view of the atonement so very often um in fact almost universally in the
00:10:43.640 progressive christian movement they're going to view the idea that god the father required the blood
00:10:49.640 sacrifice of his only son to make some kind of atonement for our sins they're going to view that
00:10:54.920 as implicating the moral character of god they refer to it as cosmic child abuse right well the only way
00:11:01.800 that you can see that as cosmic child abuse is if you so separate the father from the son and you
00:11:08.440 almost strip the son of his deity in essence and say well he was just this hapless victim that
00:11:15.480 we murdered and god was just kind of sitting up there uh in some sort of like sadistic joy taking joy in
00:11:23.320 it and and the only way you can come to that conclusion is to not have a robust and well-rounded
00:11:28.760 view of the trinity and and this i mean this gets into so many areas as far as their christology and
00:11:35.160 their view of the nature of god but i think you're right if you're going to have an orthodox historic
00:11:40.360 view of the trinity you're not going to fall into some of the trappings we see in progressive
00:11:45.080 christianity in regard to how who they think god is who they think jesus is and who they think the holy
00:11:50.840 spirit is right i would say that probably most progressive christians in the same way that
00:11:56.760 most you know conservative christians might not know all of the intricacies of the theology that
00:12:04.360 they hold or why they believe certain things they could have been attracted to like some people
00:12:10.280 literally personality wise are more attracted to calvinism and more attracted to arminianism and some
00:12:15.960 people in both camps don't exactly know why they believe what they believe it does seem like that's
00:12:22.680 also true of people who identify themselves as progressive christians they probably don't realize
00:12:28.440 that they hold to a view that you just described they were attracted to it because they saw it as
00:12:33.800 more empathetic they had friends in their life who weren't christians or who were gay or who were
00:12:39.400 abused in the church or who held on to some kind of sin that they didn't want to condemn
00:12:45.960 they are maybe naturally very feeling people and uh they have or maybe they're political progressives and
00:12:54.600 so they are looking for a theology to kind of match that and bolster their social justice aims and so they
00:13:02.440 might have gone into progressive christianity with feelings of compassion and not even realize that they
00:13:08.840 are now holding on to um a false gospel how do you encourage people who have friends that way who
00:13:17.080 they know are loving people who say that they love jesus but believe in all of the false teachings that
00:13:22.760 you just described how how is someone who is friends with that kind of person supposed to lovingly
00:13:30.280 speak truth and to their life without getting you know immediately shut down yeah that's a great
00:13:37.960 question and honestly that's one of the most common questions i receive because we can talk about
00:13:43.800 what progressive christians believe all day long and how to answer that biblically but how to actually
00:13:48.280 apply that knowledge in real life relationships is such a big question and it's a difficult uh it's a
00:13:55.160 difficult relationship to have and i think that foundationally speaking if we can understand a couple of
00:14:01.240 things it will really help to foster good conversations with people in our lives who
00:14:06.760 might be buying into some of this and so the first thing is is we we have to look past the immediate
00:14:13.000 question and try to figure out where the question is coming from and so i have a whole chapter in my
00:14:18.200 book where i talk about reasons why people have left their evangelical upbringing and gone into
00:14:24.520 progressive christianity and you mentioned a big one just now the the morality issue i can't even
00:14:30.840 imagine for young people today growing up in this in this environment where they're not just being
00:14:36.120 told they're wrong or that the bible is wrong about issues of sexuality they're actually being told hey
00:14:42.040 if you even believe that you're hurting people you're causing people to be depressed yeah and so i can
00:14:48.040 imagine for a young person they're thinking well i don't want to do that to somebody i want to
00:14:52.440 i want to love people i want to help them and so we have to understand that you know that's one
00:14:57.640 reason a lot of people are attracted to progressive christianity another reason is they may have been
00:15:03.160 through some legitimate spiritual abuse of course we've seen scandals lots of scandals come out in
00:15:09.240 the last especially even couple of years two three years where there have been abuses of power even
00:15:15.000 sexual abuse in the church and so there there can be people who have been through that that they're
00:15:20.840 they're going to go over to this progressive christian movement because it seems more loving they're going to be
00:15:25.560 accepted they're not going to be judged nothing's going to be required of them and that can feel
00:15:30.520 very healing and very loving uh and so there are reasons like that hyper legalism i mentioned earlier
00:15:36.840 people that were just so suffocated in their faith where their particular stream of christianity was
00:15:43.240 adding to the bible i just talked with a guy yesterday who said that the first church he ever went to
00:15:51.160 was so legalistic they told him that eating lucky charms was satanic because it had i've actually
00:15:57.240 heard i've actually heard that before i don't know if that's a southern baptist thing or what it is but
00:16:02.840 i i wasn't taught that growing up but i've heard other people being taught that yeah i mean i wasn't
00:16:08.600 allowed to eat lucky charms because of all the sugar but i never heard the charm part but that did that
00:16:13.480 it was the occult or something like that so i think when that kind of thing happens people just they
00:16:18.040 throw the whole thing out so sometimes there can be this sort of inner desire to really know who
00:16:25.160 jesus is but they're just misguided so i would always look for where the question is coming from
00:16:30.360 for example if somebody's asking about the old testament god or they bring up the canaanite conquest or
00:16:36.840 even the horror of the noah's ark story um we have to understand they're not not necessarily some
00:16:43.480 people are just being skeptical but a lot of times there's a genuine wound in there and they're trying
00:16:49.640 to reconcile their understanding of god as a good being with what you know some of the judgments that
00:16:57.400 he executed in the old testament and so there can be a lot of knots that need to be untied and we have
00:17:02.840 to do that gently and and this is the other thing i would tell people if you have friends in your life
00:17:08.200 that are persuaded by this is a there's there's one of those reasons probably behind it but b there's
00:17:15.240 also like this rejection of absolute truth so this is largely a post-modern movement so we have to back
00:17:23.000 up a few steps and realize that we're not even starting on the same playing field like ali you and i
00:17:29.080 could have a conversation uh regarding some theological point and we would be beginning our conversation
00:17:37.240 based on the fact that if we disagree one of us is probably wrong or we're both wrong but there is
00:17:43.320 an objective truth about that particular teaching and we can begin our conversation that way i might
00:17:48.680 be wrong you might be wrong but we would both have the understanding that there is a truth there and
00:17:56.120 that it's it's found in and that it's it's found in scripture um that it's not just somewhere
00:18:02.840 out there um and that you and i aren't inventing for example i i don't know you know what you believe
00:18:09.560 in regards to predestination but if we were debating that we both believe at the end of the day that god's
00:18:15.400 word is inerrant that it's our authority and we might be looking at the same scriptures and interpreting
00:18:20.120 two different ways but at the end of the day we don't conclude okay well truth is relative it's okay we
00:18:25.880 can't get to an agreement on this and that's okay we both know that god is right and that we'll figure
00:18:33.640 it like you know one day we will know um and so like you said we're starting with the same foundation
00:18:39.640 but you're saying with progressive christians um you're not necessarily starting at the same place
00:18:45.000 right that's right so it's it's largely this what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is
00:18:50.280 true for me type of mentality so we have to understand that when someone is coming from that
00:18:55.240 place uh any kind of truth statement you make like if you say well i think you're wrong about that
00:19:02.200 or or you know but i i think it's this those are sort of viewed as combative and and they're viewed as
00:19:09.160 an attack and so i'm sorry i i i'm wanting a little bit of clarity or maybe there is no clarity maybe it's
00:19:15.720 just a standing contradiction is that they would say that we're wrong like they would uh a progressive
00:19:21.640 christian would say that we're wrong like we're wrong about the atonement we're wrong about the
00:19:25.960 inerrancy of scripture we're wrong about the idea of the bible being god's word and so how is
00:19:32.360 relativism which i agree a lot of progressive christians espouse how is that reconciled with their
00:19:37.880 very bold assertions that we're wrong about the bible well you're absolutely right it is an
00:19:43.480 absolute standing contradiction and that's why it's so hard for people refer to it as trying to
00:19:48.760 nail jello to the wall because it's so difficult um you're absolutely right in in one breath they'll
00:19:55.800 view any kind of a truth claim as combative but yet would have no hesitation even saying what we believe
00:20:02.840 is not only wrong but morally evil and so you have you it's very very hard to navigate conversations
00:20:09.560 because it's kind of like your truth is your truth and my truth is my truth as long as it's in
00:20:14.360 this sort of scope of what we believe is right and true in fact a perfect example of this is a book i
00:20:21.560 read by lisa gunger where she documents her deconstruction and her journey into progressive
00:20:26.600 christianity and even wider spirituality than that and essentially she's saying i started thinking that
00:20:33.320 like this was true what i was taught in my conservative evangelical church then i've got out a little
00:20:38.840 further and i saw that there was a broader you know even lots of different views within the church
00:20:43.720 that and then i sort of she ends up dropping into this what she calls this circle and really what
00:20:50.040 she's describing is pluralism relativism and so i wrote her view on this and essentially what she's
00:20:55.720 assuming at that point is that pluralism relativism are the correct worldview and because they fit the
00:21:02.840 most people within it so it's the same absolutism it's the same belief and objective truth that we
00:21:09.480 have it's worded differently but you're absolutely right it's really a contradiction and and that is why
00:21:14.920 it's so difficult to have those kinds of conversations so i would recommend you know if you have family
00:21:20.520 members or good friends ask a lot of questions because with this movement it's so based on their definition of
00:21:29.800 love which is going to match culture's definition of love which is acceptance and affirmation and
00:21:34.680 even celebration of whatever it is you want to believe of course unless you're conservative yeah
00:21:39.400 that that's without saying but you know they if you can if you can find a way to ask a lot of questions and
00:21:46.760 they they're going to need to feel and know that you love them that you're not just trying to get
00:21:51.080 them with gotcha questions you're not just trying to lay your you know your views and oppress them with
00:21:55.800 your views or whatever but if you can ask a lot of questions and there are ways that you can frame
00:22:01.160 questions that will kind of as greg kokel says in his book tactics put a little pebble in their shoe
00:22:07.080 people did that with me they put pebbles in my shoe where you kind of like well that's that was irritating
00:22:12.200 why and then you think it through more and then that can actually cause you to change your mind on
00:22:17.160 something yeah but uh i think it's it's such a relational thing you have they have to know that
00:22:22.200 they're loved by you and that you generally care about their opinion that you generally want to know
00:22:26.440 what they're going to answer with these questions and it's just going to be a long a long haul of
00:22:31.320 prayer loving them with true biblical love which speaks the truth sometimes you know the bible says
00:22:37.320 uh love rejoices in the truth so it's it's it's a fine balance that we have to walk but um but it can be
00:22:44.760 done yeah and i think understanding like you said that you're starting in two totally different
00:22:50.600 two totally different places and asking questions people you know often ask me as i'm sure they
00:22:55.240 ask you what do i say when someone says x and always before i recommend giving a response which
00:23:01.000 you might readily have someone might say something that you know is absolutely false and you can combat
00:23:06.600 it immediately with your answer which sometimes i mean sometimes that is the right thing to do it's
00:23:12.680 just a simple okay you think this but actually this is true if it's just uh um they have their facts
00:23:18.440 wrong but when someone makes a theological assertion or you know i talk politics when someone makes a
00:23:24.600 political assertion typically what i try to do is before i say no you're wrong and here is why i say
00:23:31.800 what do you mean by blank what do you mean by x can you define this because a lot of times
00:23:38.440 and this is not really exclusive to one side of the theological or political aisle we will say
00:23:43.480 things that we hear or even that we understand but we don't understand well enough to actually
00:23:49.000 be able to define and articulate and i think that's really important for all of us to make sure that we
00:23:54.120 know the terms that we're using why we use certain terms what they mean especially biblically but it's
00:24:00.040 also important to press people that we are um disagreeing with on what they mean get down to the
00:24:07.000 nitty-gritty because if we are not starting in a place to where we define words the same way like if
00:24:12.680 they're saying love and you're saying love but you mean two totally different things then you're
00:24:17.640 going to keep on talking past each other so if someone says well i'm a progressive christian
00:24:22.680 because i love lgbtq people you as a non-progressive christian are going to say well i love lgbtq people
00:24:29.240 too and they're going to say no you don't because you believe that it's a sin and i'm going to say well
00:24:33.720 yeah i do believe it's a sin but that's and then you're going to get confused so you have to first
00:24:38.120 define what love is and for us we believe that love is defined by scripture that god
00:24:44.840 is love and therefore everything that god does in scripture defines what love is and tells us what
00:24:50.360 love is so if we start with the idea of the definition of love that god is love and he himself
00:24:56.200 says that god made them male and female and we see that definition of marriage reiterated throughout
00:25:00.840 scripture and we see the definition of gender reiterated uh throughout scripture then defining
00:25:06.280 gender and defining marriage as god defined it who is love is also loving um but you you do have to
00:25:11.800 realize that a lot of times progressive christians uh i think and you can correct me if i'm wrong on
00:25:17.320 this um but they are not starting from the assumption that we are that god is greater and more loving and
00:25:26.520 holier than us and he is the definer of all of all things and we have to submit to his definitions
00:25:32.600 they rather whether they know it or not hold themselves as the definer of things and that
00:25:39.880 god and love and acceptance and whatever other definition or word there might be
00:25:47.240 is really defined by what they want to define it by and so if god does something in the bible or a
00:25:55.960 christian does something that they don't view as loving well then it's just not loving and they're
00:26:01.000 going to throw it out rather than subjecting their mind like okay it's really difficult for me to
00:26:05.960 understand why god would do something like that um but it must be loving because he is love it's
00:26:11.720 well it's really hard for me to understand why god would say or do something like that because it
00:26:15.720 doesn't seem loving to me so he must have not done it or i just don't agree with it and so you also
00:26:20.840 have to realize that we're starting from a different place of authority as well correct yeah you make a
00:26:26.600 really good point there because one of the things you'll hear quite commonly in the progressive
00:26:31.560 christian movement is people saying things like i could never worship a god who and then you can
00:26:37.560 just fill in the blank so essentially they're taking their own personal conscience what they
00:26:42.440 think is good and true and then holding god to their standard rather than doing it the other way around
00:26:48.120 and this was perfectly articulated by a guy named bart campolo who's the son of famous evangelist
00:26:55.240 father tony campolo bart's story is that he deconstructed into a type of progressive christianity
00:27:01.000 for a while and now he's totally out of the church he identifies as a secular humanist but
00:27:06.520 some of his thoughts are very helpful because it gives us a picture of what's going on in people's
00:27:11.400 minds but he said uh in an interview uh and now i'm going to paraphrase because i i i don't have
00:27:17.080 it right in front of me and i it's been a minute since i listened to it but he said something along
00:27:21.080 the lines of why would you worship this god when you can imagine a better one and so in his mind
00:27:27.800 he can create a better god in his own mind than his perception of the god of the bible and so that
00:27:34.680 was a large reason why he ended up rejecting christianity and so you hear that a lot and and
00:27:41.720 it's and i just want to go back to to this point you made earlier because it was so good about just
00:27:46.360 understanding the definitions of words we see this in the social justice conversation all the time
00:27:51.400 when that conversation sort of re-entered the the evangelical atmosphere a while back a lot of
00:27:59.160 people would use the phrase social justice and what they meant was caring for the poor feeding the
00:28:04.920 hungry um doing evangelism do you know blessing feet clothing the naked visiting people in prisons
00:28:12.120 that's what people thought like one group was saying they didn't understand that the other group
00:28:16.920 meant dismantling institutions and systems and uh pitting everybody as oppressed versus oppressor
00:28:24.440 and so for years i've seen so many people just talk directly past each other because they just don't
00:28:30.920 bother to define the phrase social justice and so you're right we can end up having fruitless conversations
00:28:37.320 if we don't first define our terms which is such an important thing to do especially when you're in
00:28:42.600 relationship and in conversation with a progressive christian something i'm concerned about is that
00:28:50.200 women and maybe this is not even true i'm just kind of in female circles being a woman it seems like
00:28:55.640 women are more attracted to this than men are more susceptible to the tenets of progressive christianity
00:29:02.760 and a lot of material bible studies books sermons that i see geared toward women um they are not
00:29:11.080 dealing with these tough theological issues that all christians really need to work through why do
00:29:16.600 we believe in the bible how do we define our words how do we wrestle with tough questions of doubt
00:29:22.600 but instead it seems like a lot of women especially today maybe this hasn't always been the case
00:29:28.360 but women in the church are being told well no your biggest problem is that you're insecure or your
00:29:34.440 biggest problem is society your biggest problem is that people put too many expectations on you
00:29:40.040 and really what you need to do is realize that jesus thinks you're awesome and beautiful and as long
00:29:44.760 as you realize that then you'll manifest all of this goodness in your life and um we are almost told that
00:29:51.560 we're victims of motherhood that we're victims of our femininity we're victims of our of our womanhood
00:29:58.760 and uh because of you know the society the patriarchy whatever it is um and that's all that's all
00:30:06.520 we're hearing we're not dealing with these very tough questions and so we are kind of getting this
00:30:12.120 self-centered message where jesus is coming along for the ride and telling us that we're awesome and
00:30:18.360 pretty and that we should just chase our dreams and feel good about ourselves but a lot of christian
00:30:23.000 teachers aren't telling us how do you deal with your sin how do you deal with the biggest problem that
00:30:27.720 you're going to stand before a holy god one day and that if you can't if if christ is not your
00:30:33.320 advocate if christ you know has it if you are not in christ um then you're going to spend forever in
00:30:40.680 hell we're almost not even presented with the basic gospel our gospel is like you feel bad about
00:30:45.800 yourself jesus is here to make you feel good about yourself and to me that could be why they end up
00:30:52.280 sliding into a false gospel progressive christianity because they don't have a firm foundation that
00:30:58.360 they're hearing from a lot of these so-called female bible teachers yeah that's that's a really
00:31:03.880 good point and i think we see it um i don't know the ratio of men to women i this teaching comes from
00:31:10.040 men a lot as well though in this but you're right some of the biggest and most popular most highly
00:31:16.280 platformed uh female teachers uh in the progressive movement i mean these we're talking millions of
00:31:22.600 followers and and one thing we have to understand i think why it so goes to that me focused gospel
00:31:29.960 is because the the basic foundation of progressive christianity is most progressive christians
00:31:35.640 and i only say most just to make room for somebody who might view this differently but this is
00:31:41.640 pretty much across the board and we may have talked about this last time but progressive christians
00:31:45.880 don't believe that our sin separates us from god i mean that's where it starts uh it's not that they'll
00:31:51.080 reject the idea that we do wrong things and they might even use the word sin but sin isn't what
00:31:57.000 separates us from god it's just our own shame and so they'll even teach genesis 3 and you know when
00:32:03.880 when adam and eve saw that they were naked and they were afraid and they hid they'll say that was bad
00:32:09.160 they need to realize that they're beloved before god that they're not separated from god that god
00:32:14.200 doesn't reject them and um i think i mean one of the biggest examples we see of this is with glennon
00:32:20.360 doyle who started as a christian mommy blogger uh had she's got millions of followers today on facebook
00:32:27.080 still claims the name of christ still in her latest book says that she's a christian and she actually
00:32:33.000 teaches the genesis story by saying you know we need to stop looking at eve as a cautionary tale
00:32:40.200 and we need to start seeing eve as our hero and she actually says in the book at one point own your
00:32:45.960 wanting eat the apple and so she's saying like this whole narrative that eve sinned this whole narrative
00:32:52.280 that eve was rebellious or wicked because she ate the apple we need to reject that because that's oppressive
00:32:58.600 to women we need to view her as our hero and do what she did have the courage to eat the apple so
00:33:04.040 we have to understand like this is the message that women are getting and so if you're told that your sin
00:33:09.720 is really not that big of a deal it doesn't really separate you from god you just need to realize how
00:33:14.120 beautiful and loved and and just embraced and accepted by god you already are you can see how that's
00:33:20.440 going to go right to that uh just that me focused gospel if i just work on myself if i find my inner
00:33:27.240 you know goddess like i've heard you say and if i if i just find that that inner sense of divinity
00:33:33.320 that's already within me then then everything's going to be great and so you can see even just from
00:33:38.520 that first building block how the gospel just gets completely lost if you don't have that you don't
00:33:44.440 have the rest of it um okay i am uh just pretending i am a doubter i have these tenets of progressive
00:34:04.360 christianity the reason why i can't fully feel like i'm on board with the rest of christians is because
00:34:10.440 i um i i see a lot of christians who seem hateful to me or they seem um hypocritical or they seem
00:34:18.520 unaccepting and the god that they worship seems very cruel um he seems very punitive i don't understand
00:34:25.800 why you know he lets bad things happen or he sends people to hell and so i've embraced this much
00:34:31.880 softer and i think more compassionate and more accepting form of christianity
00:34:36.360 um and i just can't bring myself to believe the efficacy of the bible i can't believe myself i
00:34:43.720 can't bring myself to believe that christianity is the only way what do you if you had 30 seconds to
00:34:50.840 just share the gospel with me and tell me what is true and kind of at least lightly deal with some of
00:34:57.000 the doubts that i'm struggling with what do you say to me i think it's someone that's in the situation
00:35:02.520 you just described uh from what i heard from what you said you're you love jesus right you want to
00:35:09.720 follow jesus you want to follow the teachings of jesus you might not understand some of the things
00:35:14.920 that you're reading in the old testament you're it's difficult for you but you're a christian you're
00:35:19.880 going to embrace christianity which you know the first question i would ask is are you are you a jesus
00:35:25.560 follower and most likely the person's going to say well yeah of course i'm a jesus follower
00:35:30.120 follower and the second question i would follow up with even especially if i just had a short amount
00:35:34.840 of time is i would just say well what do you think about what jesus said about the bible and what he
00:35:40.520 said about uh or whatever issue might be coming up what you know if they're rejecting the atonement
00:35:45.800 what do you think about what jesus said about the reason that he came and the reason that he died and
00:35:51.520 you're going to get one of two answers either they have no idea what jesus said about that because maybe
00:35:57.180 they're not really spending time reading the bible but they're sort of created this sort of cosmic
00:36:01.340 jesus that's based on this mystical sort of preference that they have in their own hearts
00:36:06.100 or they're going to say well you know uh if you know if they are familiar they're probably going to
00:36:11.760 go to to some teachings that aren't really where jesus addresses what he did but if you go to the upper
00:36:16.580 room i mean jesus identifies himself with the suffering servant in isaiah 53 and i would just point
00:36:23.040 them toward those things and just you know because they they have such an aversion to paul
00:36:27.320 generally speaking you know you can we can just sideline paul for a second even though we affirm
00:36:32.460 that paul was you know writing scripture inspired by god he's writing god's word but for the progressive
00:36:37.760 that sort of already has this sort of wall up with paul well let's just go to jesus you know
00:36:42.040 do you agree with jesus on the bible do you agree with jesus about the reason he died do you agree
00:36:48.880 with jesus on a marriage and gender and sin and hell and heaven and you know you can do these
00:36:54.660 things gently and bit by bit but that's probably where i would go is i would go to jesus and say
00:37:00.100 well what did he say about it and then we we can decide like do we agree with jesus or we disagree
00:37:04.960 with jesus and then what are the consequences of actually disagreeing with jesus on that and i think
00:37:10.880 that's a great way to sort of maybe put that little pebble in the shoe to to have them think about
00:37:16.240 what they're actually claiming yeah and it's so important for us too to understand our bibles
00:37:21.880 to know our bibles and to be able to wrestle with this ourselves unfortunately i think that you know
00:37:27.740 some conservative christians almost see because progressive christians use jesus as their mascot
00:37:33.480 and they almost paint him as this like left-wing freedom fighter this soft guy who doesn't care
00:37:40.220 about sin at all some conservatives almost want to skip over jesus because they think he is an
00:37:45.800 obstacle to defending their theology when really that's not true at all if we look at the life
00:37:51.820 and the words of jesus we uphold them obviously we follow him and we affirm them as true you will find
00:37:58.360 that he is juxtaposed to progressive theology that he does contradict progressive theology so i think
00:38:05.300 that is such a good tactic asking the questions like we talked about but start with jesus who is the
00:38:11.320 reason why any of us believe any of it um but progressive christians typically do say
00:38:16.900 that you know they might not agree with the rest of the biblical canon but they do follow jesus
00:38:22.180 so start with jesus start with what he thinks about scripture with what he says love is why he says he died
00:38:29.200 uh what does he say about who god is um and so i think you're you're absolutely right that's a great
00:38:36.340 a great place to start um if you could recommend some people or some resources uh for others to
00:38:44.180 follow or to purchase for themselves so they can read and learn more do you have a list of those
00:38:48.820 recommendations or just some off the top of your head that you would suggest yeah i can do both so i
00:38:53.220 have a resource page on my website that uh just gives lots of good book recommendations podcast
00:38:59.400 recommendations things like that if you want to learn more about this regarding the things we just
00:39:04.180 mentioned about jesus view of scripture jesus view of all of these things i have a lot of videos on
00:39:08.940 youtube that can help you with that um of course i address that in my book as well a great book to get
00:39:15.140 that is just a good introduction to some of this stuff is called i don't have enough faith to be an
00:39:19.080 atheist by uh frank turek and norm geisler there's also cold case christianity by j werner wallace and
00:39:25.980 then a third book i would really recommend uh just when it comes to the practical side of having
00:39:31.360 difficult conversations without getting becoming difficult um having arguments without being
00:39:36.240 argumentative is a book called tactics by greg kokel yes and i think that i saw that you were
00:39:42.940 reading that in your book club we are going to read it in my book club as well which is great that
00:39:47.440 means thousands of people are are going to um are going to read it and i'm really excited because
00:39:52.900 i've heard so many good things about it and i actually haven't read it myself and so
00:39:57.040 i'm i'm super pumped about that um okay is there anything else that you want to leave people with
00:40:03.260 i think you you mentioned your website can they follow you on on social media and where can they
00:40:07.480 get your book as well yeah thank you so you can follow on social on twitter facebook and instagram
00:40:12.960 at elisa childers and you can get the book anywhere books are sold if you want to go to my website
00:40:18.760 elisa childers.com slash another gospel there's some buttons there you can buy it at several different
00:40:24.620 retailers or amazon or wherever you buy books awesome well thank you so much elisa for joining
00:40:30.340 me again oh so fun thanks allie