Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 24, 2021


Ep 425 ｜ How to Hold Fast to Christ Through Persecution ｜ Guest： Pastor Andrew Brunson


Episode Stats

Length

48 minutes

Words per Minute

172.07649

Word Count

8,362

Sentence Count

467

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

8


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. I am so excited for you to listen to this conversation that
00:00:14.380 I am having with missionary Andrew Brunson. You might remember a couple years ago, he
00:00:21.200 was released from prison in Turkey where he and his wife had served as missionaries for
00:00:26.320 several years and he immediately went to the White House and talked to President Trump,
00:00:31.860 thanked President Trump for his efforts, for Congress's efforts, for American Christians'
00:00:36.460 efforts and prayers in getting him released from prison and brought back to the United States.
00:00:42.400 He has a lot of encouragement for us. He's going to talk about his story, what it was like in prison,
00:00:47.320 the lessons that he learned, and then what he thinks American Christians are facing as far as
00:00:52.700 persecution goes. And he's going to give us a lot of practical advice and a lot of biblical wisdom
00:00:58.500 that I think all of us need to take to heart. It's a very edifying episode. It's a very grounding
00:01:05.140 episode. And I'm really excited for you to listen to it. So without further ado, here is Andrew Brunson.
00:01:14.960 Andrew, thank you so much for joining me. I think most people know your story,
00:01:20.880 but could you just remind people who maybe don't know who you are and what you do?
00:01:27.900 Yeah, my wife and I were in Turkey for 25 years as missionaries and it ended in an unexpected way.
00:01:35.640 I spent the last two years of that in prison and a lot of people prayed for me around the world.
00:01:40.400 That's why some of your viewers will know who we are, just because I became one of the most
00:01:45.780 praying for people. I was held for two years. I would summarize it as the first year was a year
00:01:53.000 of breaking and the second year God rebuilt me during prison. It was still very difficult,
00:01:57.300 but there was a rebuilding process. Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit more?
00:02:01.560 Most of us in America, we can't imagine that level of persecution, what it would be like to be at a
00:02:07.160 foreign jail for preaching the gospel. So can you talk about what that brokenness looked like in
00:02:12.920 the first year and then how God rebuilt you? Yeah. So from reading biographies and just the
00:02:22.100 general expectations I had, I expected that when I, well, first of all, I didn't think I'd go to
00:02:27.140 prison. No one else had gone to prison in Turkey in living memory for their faith. So I was the first
00:02:31.620 one. Wow. We had counted other things as a cost, other pressures that we had. There were threats,
00:02:36.940 there were, you know, there was some rest during our time there, but I hadn't thought of prison.
00:02:43.040 So when I arrived there, I thought, well, I'm going to have a sense of strength and of grace. And I
00:02:48.480 certainly had grace as I look back, but it was, it was an unfelt grace for the most part. And what
00:02:55.800 really surprised me was that I didn't have that sense of strength and especially of God's presence. And
00:03:02.100 I remember one of the things I struggled with was I had come to know God as my loving, kind,
00:03:10.520 gentle father. And I thought, how can my kind, gentle, loving father allow me to be broken so
00:03:18.020 thoroughly and not give me a sense of his presence? This is what really surprised me as those two years
00:03:24.880 in prison were like a dark night, the silence of God, I could call it. Now I see many good things
00:03:32.220 that came out of it, but that's what surprised me. And that led to the isolation I was experiencing.
00:03:38.060 I was the only Christian in, in the prisons. So I didn't have anybody from my own faith who could
00:03:45.280 encourage me or pray with me or, or correct me when I had wrong thoughts. And just all of the
00:03:52.080 pressures I was under, the fear, I spent two years, but I didn't know it was going to be two years.
00:03:56.820 They wanted three life sentences for me. So that uncertainty, the fear, the isolation, the feeling
00:04:04.400 abandoned by God, even though I wasn't, I felt that way. It was all, I broke in every way. I broke
00:04:11.420 physically. I lost about 50 pounds in the first months and I broke spiritually. And I was very
00:04:19.540 offended at God, hurt. And this is even though I understood that persecution could come, that it
00:04:29.060 was part of, I mean, many people in our family were the third generation who suffered persecution
00:04:35.780 because my wife's family is Hungarian and they suffered under the communist government for being
00:04:40.740 believers. But this is something that I hadn't expected it to be this hard. It was more difficult
00:04:47.800 than I thought. My story though, isn't just one of brokenness. God did rebuild me. And the process
00:04:54.900 of rebuilding was my, a turning point was my making a decision that I am going to, I'm going to turn my
00:05:05.760 eyes toward God and not away from him. And with, even though I, the offense in my heart, the fear,
00:05:14.740 all of those things, I am going to run after him and cling to him. And so I began a series of
00:05:21.840 disciplines. And this was not from, uh, my emotions were in turmoil. So it was very much a decision of
00:05:30.060 the will that I am going to follow. I am going to cling to him and be faithful to him no matter what.
00:05:37.480 And that began a rebuilding process.
00:05:40.760 And tell me what some of those disciplines were.
00:05:44.440 Well, one of them was simply,
00:05:46.580 I said, I want to be like the sunflower. The sunflower follows, you know, throughout the day from the
00:05:52.460 rising of the sun until, until it sets is, it just follows. Uh, and, and I said, God, I'm going to fix
00:05:59.400 my eyes on you and, and, and just keep my eyes on you. And this is something I try to underline to
00:06:05.360 people that it doesn't matter how, how deep the hole you're in, how dark it is, or what pressure you're
00:06:14.140 on. There's always a choice that we have, even if it's restricted, there's always a choice that we make
00:06:20.380 to turn toward or away from God. And it's a one degree difference. So it's just that one degree
00:06:26.220 and you, you choose that, do I turn one degree away or one degree toward him? And that choosing
00:06:31.720 to turn toward him, uh, positions us so that we can receive from him. Uh, so I think that is something
00:06:38.320 so important that as we prepare for hardships, having the determination, uh, to use our wills and
00:06:47.040 not base things on a moment to say, I will, I exert my will and I choose, I make a choice that I will
00:06:53.120 turn to God. Uh, there were other things I did as well. Um, I suppose a more unusual one was, uh,
00:06:59.720 dancing. I, uh, decided that I would, uh, dance five minutes a day as a discipline, uh, before the
00:07:07.960 Lord. And this was, this came from a conviction that Jesus says in Matthew, uh, five, he says,
00:07:15.380 blessed are those who persecute, blessed are you when people persecute you, when you're reviled,
00:07:20.200 when people say all kinds of false things about you on economy, rejoice and be glad, uh, for great
00:07:25.980 is your reward in heaven. And I realized I had not rejoiced at all. And this was a command from God
00:07:30.860 that we rejoice when, when people persecute us. And, uh, I realized I had failed in this and I had
00:07:37.880 had no joy. So I decided to repent of this. And every day I would say, I am sorry that I confess I
00:07:46.000 have not had joy. I repent. And now I will perform an act of joy. I don't feel joy, but I will perform
00:07:53.880 an act of joy, uh, as obedience, just an obedience to you. And then I would, I would dance for those
00:08:01.880 five minutes and, and force myself to rejoice. Uh, so that, that's an example of the disciplines.
00:08:08.160 It was really focusing myself throughout, uh, the day again and again, uh, on God.
00:08:15.080 And at this point, when you kind of, um, you decided as an act of the will, like you said,
00:08:22.520 since your emotions were in turmoil to turn toward the Lord, to pursue the Lord, to continue to rejoice
00:08:28.780 in the Lord and obey the Lord, you believed that you would be in prison for the rest of your life,
00:08:35.580 correct? Uh, that, that was, uh, uh, yes, I did. So I spent two years there, but I didn't know it
00:08:43.480 would be two years. Right. Uh, the Turkish government had said that they wanted a three
00:08:48.220 life sentences and, uh, with no parole and solitary confinement. And this is one of the, uh, challenges
00:08:56.360 that most people have when they go through a hardship. They may not be in that kind of intense
00:09:02.460 prison situation I was in, but many believers face hardship and it's not knowing how or when,
00:09:09.680 uh, in what way, even if that will be resolved. And the, the, the testing of the heart that I
00:09:17.000 experienced believers, uh, every believer is going to face the same testing that the test may be
00:09:24.340 different, but the area of the heart that's tested is the same. And those tests that I was going through
00:09:28.140 were enough to knock me out of friendship with God. And the tests that you have and that every
00:09:34.160 believer has, your tests are enough to knock you out. They may be different, but the heart is being
00:09:40.000 tested in the same areas. So for example, in that uncertainty, when we don't know how or if or when
00:09:46.500 our, our, uh, difficulty is going to end, we're tested in our response to God. Am I going to love him?
00:09:54.600 Uh, even if I am doubting his love, am I going to be faithful to him? Even if I don't see his hand
00:10:02.000 in my life and I question his faithfulness and am I going to continue to lean into him? One of the
00:10:08.280 things that people have said sometimes, Andrew, your time in prison was just you trusting God.
00:10:13.440 And I say, you know, I, I know, I don't know that I completely understand trust. I want to,
00:10:19.380 it's so important. The words that I use instead are leaning into the leadership of Jesus.
00:10:26.020 And because I can relate to that. I may not understand what he's doing, but I can lean into
00:10:33.620 his leadership and say, I, you are a good leader. I don't know what you're doing. I don't know where
00:10:38.920 you're going to take me, but I want to go with you. I'm going to follow you. You are a good leader.
00:10:44.880 Mm-hmm. And what a testament to his grace. I mean, you talked about how in the first year,
00:10:50.000 how difficult it was, how you just felt that you couldn't rejoice, but, and you even, I think
00:10:55.480 you mentioned that you were knocked out of friendship with God, but I think that we would
00:10:59.660 both agree that he had you. He had you the whole time. And the fact that you were able through the
00:11:05.720 power of the Holy Spirit to turn towards him and to learn how to rejoice, that's not something that
00:11:11.440 we can do in our flesh. That's something that can only be accomplished through the power of the Holy
00:11:15.400 Spirit. So what a testament to the faithfulness of God, to the perseverance of God, to the pursuit
00:11:20.780 of God after our hearts, even when we feel alone and without his presence and destitute.
00:11:28.260 Yes. As I look back, I can say God was faithful. What I do want to underline, just because I'm being
00:11:35.120 very open about the struggles and the thoughts I had, is that what I was experiencing there,
00:11:41.940 what I was thinking about was not God's faithfulness so much, because I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't
00:11:48.220 seeing it. Right. And so then what was underlined for me is my faithfulness. One of the things that,
00:11:58.840 so I had a lot of questions and doubts and confusion, and there were reasons for this.
00:12:05.120 But I came to a point where I realized, even though I had many questions for God,
00:12:11.140 he had questions for me. And I had doubted his faithfulness and his love. But then I realized
00:12:20.340 that it was not God's faithfulness and love that were being put to the test. They remain constant.
00:12:26.020 It was actually my faithfulness and my love that was being tested. Would I come through? Would I
00:12:31.340 continue to love God? And these are the questions he had for me. Andrew, when you feel unloved,
00:12:38.240 are you still going to love me? Are you going to betray me, even if you feel betrayed? Or will you
00:12:46.780 stand firm? And so, yes, God is faithful. As I look back, I realize in my strongest strength,
00:12:52.800 I'm still very weak. And so as much as I was determined that second year, I'm going to follow you.
00:12:59.240 I'm going to cling to you then. But that is not enough. That is not enough. Clearly,
00:13:05.700 God was carrying me through it. By the way, I want to mention something because I'm underlining the
00:13:12.300 will here. And throughout my imprisonment, the real struggle that I had as far as what it was,
00:13:21.160 it was surrender. So it was getting to the point where I would say, God, I don't want to be in
00:13:28.940 prison. I cannot embrace my imprisonment. It's too difficult for me emotionally to do that. But I
00:13:36.560 can embrace serving your purposes. And if your purposes are best served by my being in prison,
00:13:41.400 then I need to be willing to do this and with my will make that decision and commit myself to it.
00:13:48.820 And this was the battle that I had. During my first year, it was a year of brokenness. Every
00:13:54.400 time I was broken, I would crawl back to that point of surrender. And it took me a while to get
00:14:02.180 there. And when I get there, then I'd get knocked down again by something even more difficult. Things
00:14:07.200 would get worse for me. And I'd just struggle back to that point of surrender. The difference in the
00:14:12.600 second year was that I got back to that point much more quickly. And I began to focus every day on
00:14:20.660 getting to that point. So it was a daily battle from I'd get up in the morning with fear and this
00:14:27.280 desperation, discouragement. And I'd fight through to that point to say, I am going to surrender to
00:14:33.740 you. I'm going to embrace serving your purposes, even if it means staying in prison. And God, give me
00:14:39.920 the strength then so that I can be faithful and persevere because I can't do this on my own. But I'm
00:14:45.340 willing with my will to serve you and surrender to you. And then I'd get up the next morning with the
00:14:51.540 same fear and discouragement and hopelessness and start that battle over again. So there was, as I did that
00:14:58.380 day after day, I want to underline this. As I did this day after day, I was flexing the surrender muscle,
00:15:04.960 flexing the perseverance muscle. And as I did that day after day, there was an upward trajectory,
00:15:12.340 there was an accumulation and it built a strength and a determination in me so that I came out much
00:15:17.960 stronger from prison than I was when I went in. And can you talk about the treatment that you
00:15:24.180 endured while you were in prison in solitary confinement?
00:15:28.380 So I was in solitary confinement early on in my imprisonment. And that was very difficult. It
00:15:36.720 was just me in a bed and I was really losing my mind.
00:15:40.300 Of course.
00:15:41.700 So actually what kept me from losing it all was planning my day and structuring it around different
00:15:49.980 prayer. And that's what just provided some structure when there's no paper, no pen, no books,
00:15:57.620 no communication with anyone except guards. And, and so that was what kept me sane was just the
00:16:03.740 structuring around, around God, around prayer in a number of areas. When I went into, from there, I was
00:16:11.360 put into a prison, a high security prison into a very crowded cell. I was, it was built for eight
00:16:18.660 people. There were over 20 of us in there and all of my cellmates were very committed Muslims. And even
00:16:26.220 though it was very crowded, intensely crowded, and we never left the cell, we were in that cell 24
00:16:30.820 seven. So very crowded, intense conditions. I still felt, uh, intensely lonely because I was alone in my
00:16:40.020 faith. I was isolated in many ways, but especially by my faith. And I really saw the, um, how important it is to
00:16:48.640 have the, uh, the, the, the community of believers and what an encouragement that is.
00:16:54.720 Yeah, absolutely. Was it, um, were you, were you well fed? Was there torture? Was there abuse or was it
00:17:04.840 really just the imprisonment in the isolation that was the worst of the punishment?
00:17:11.760 Yeah, that was the worst. Uh, there, there was, there was abuse and, and torture. I did not experience
00:17:18.700 it. Some people that I was in cells with were, were exposed to that, but I, I was not, uh, for me
00:17:25.140 being, uh, completely isolated, uh, and living under a sentence of death, you could say in that,
00:17:34.000 you know, three life sentences with no parole. Uh, it was just so heavy for me, the grief,
00:17:39.860 the sense of loss of being separated from, from my wife, where we have a very close relationship.
00:17:46.120 And the idea that I would not be with my children again and just waste away. It was, uh, much more
00:17:52.600 of an emotional and spiritual, uh, torture, I could say than anything physical.
00:17:58.640 So your wife and children were not imprisoned. It was just you.
00:18:02.380 Well, my wife got a taste of it because we, uh, were held together for two weeks at the very
00:18:08.200 beginning. And so, uh, that it wasn't quite what I went through later on when I was in the maximum
00:18:16.220 security prisons and all that, because we were together those two weeks, but she did experience
00:18:20.820 that. What happened though, is that, uh, she, after she was released after the first two weeks,
00:18:26.380 she remained in Turkey. She was the only person, uh, who was allowed to see me in prison. And, uh,
00:18:33.480 even though there was a number of leaders suggested that she needed to return to the States,
00:18:37.140 she remained there, uh, at, at some risk to herself because she, she loves me and she was,
00:18:43.520 uh, ministering to me.
00:18:45.160 Yes. Wow. And tell me which years you were in prison.
00:18:50.520 Yeah. So I was arrested, uh, in October of 2016 and I was released, uh, two years later,
00:18:57.140 just over two years later in October of 2018.
00:18:59.720 And can you tell me the process of you being released from prison, how you heard that news,
00:19:07.580 how all of that came about?
00:19:11.020 Well, I, I was put on trial as a spy and, uh, as a, uh, supporter of terrorism. And, uh,
00:19:20.580 during my, on my last trial day, the way that trials are set up in Turkey, political trials,
00:19:26.280 like mine, you go to a session that can take three to four months off until you have the second
00:19:31.000 session. So it can go on for years and years. So I was in the fourth trial, uh, session and they
00:19:35.960 moved to convict me very quickly. And, uh, it was just a day from in hell for me, uh, because
00:19:42.480 they convicted me of supporting terror. And then they sentenced me to prison. This was after a lot
00:19:48.060 of pressure from the U S government. Uh, they imposed sanctions on Turkey. The Turkish economy had
00:19:54.220 come to its knees because of this. So I was a, a very hated man in Turkey. And, uh, so even after
00:20:02.320 all this pressure and after millions and millions of people around the world, uh, had prayed for me
00:20:08.200 for so long, I thought here, they've convicted me as a terrorist and now they're sentencing me to
00:20:13.420 prison. I'm going back to prison and I don't know when I'll get out. Uh, and then the judge suddenly
00:20:19.040 said, well, you are free to go now. And so they convicted me, sentenced me, and then they released
00:20:24.620 me while I appealed. And clearly this was a political decision. Then they said, you can leave
00:20:29.220 the country. And then the senior prosecutor for the area called me and said, when are you leaving?
00:20:34.800 Please leave soon. So, uh, in a sense, they were, they were glad to get rid of me at that point.
00:20:42.100 But at the same time, there was a rush to get me to the airport because we didn't know if,
00:20:47.140 you know, any, the, the president of Turkey, he's the one who was making the decisions about me
00:20:52.120 at any point he could change his mind and put me back into prison. So it was that rush to the
00:20:56.760 airport. And it was a real Joseph type of experience because I went from, think of the rollercoaster
00:21:02.880 of emotions. I'm convicted and sentenced. And then within a day, we are back in the States. I'm embracing
00:21:11.100 my children and we are at the white house. So just what a, what a whiplash there.
00:21:17.520 I can't imagine. And tell me what it was like to, to talk to president Trump and to all of a sudden
00:21:25.080 be in this position. I mean, like you said, going from being in prison to being with the president of
00:21:31.180 the United States, who, when you were arrested, wasn't even quite the president of the United States
00:21:37.320 yet. I mean, I just can't even imagine how much you were thrown for a loop. Tell me what that was
00:21:42.700 like.
00:21:43.620 Yeah. President Trump hadn't been elected yet when I was arrested. And I was very grateful. He did a
00:21:48.860 lot for me. There was unprecedented government involvement, not just the administration, but
00:21:53.480 in Congress. And God was really, was really moving this. And I was so grateful. One thing that I
00:21:59.920 was very, it was ironic to me. I don't know what the right word is, but I had watched in prison,
00:22:07.380 there was a summit between president Trump and president Erdogan of Turkey. And in that summit,
00:22:14.040 president Trump had requested my release. And I had seen it on, on the TV and the prison
00:22:18.980 where president Trump is sitting there on these yellow chairs and the over office with president
00:22:25.060 Erdogan sitting in one of those yellow chairs. And I knew that Erdogan three times rejected the
00:22:31.800 request of president Trump to release me. And then he held me for another 17 months. And here I was at
00:22:37.720 the end of this and I was sitting in the same yellow chair in the oval office that Erdogan had sat in
00:22:44.460 when he turned down president Trump's request to release me. And I thought, this is just God. It's a,
00:22:50.560 it's a God thing. Absolutely. And it's just a testament to how, you know, there's a lot of
00:22:55.900 criticisms against president Trump, how the Lord uses whoever he wants to use to accomplish his
00:23:02.900 purposes. And I'm so thankful for that. And I'm thankful for the administration. I'm thankful for
00:23:08.660 those in Congress. I'm thankful for the people who prayed for you. I'm thankful for whoever in Turkey
00:23:13.820 had a hand in making sure that you were freed. And I'm so thankful now it, like you said, it's,
00:23:20.660 it's a Joseph moment. What God meant for evil, what Joseph's brothers meant for evil and selling
00:23:25.980 him into slavery, God used it for good. And that's what he's doing now by sharing your testimony. And
00:23:31.700 I'm just very encouraged by that. Um, you talked about recently how Americans need to be ready for
00:23:39.300 persecution. Um, a lot of people roll their eyes who, when Christians in America talk about
00:23:46.000 the threat of persecution or the fear of persecution, we're told that we have Christian
00:23:50.660 privilege or whatever, that Christians aren't oppressed, that we shouldn't be worried about
00:23:54.880 persecution. But you seem to think differently. You seem to think that, uh, there will be persecution
00:23:59.960 that Christians are facing and will face in the future here. A lot of, uh, Christians, uh, do not
00:24:07.180 think that the kind of persecution we've heard about from other countries can happen here. And
00:24:14.140 that's, that's just not the case. Uh, I think that if we, if we look at the times we're living in,
00:24:19.940 if we discern the, the, the, the context that we're living in now, uh, I think we, there's already
00:24:27.240 some hostility toward people who are followers of Jesus, who, um, who accept the exclusive claims of
00:24:36.560 Jesus, that he is the only way to salvation. And secondly, who accept his authority to make demands
00:24:43.940 on the lives of his followers and, uh, as presented in the Bible. So people who embrace that, that,
00:24:49.840 that kind of follower of Jesus, there's increasing hostility toward them. And we already see it in
00:24:55.700 society. But, uh, in the past, we didn't experience persecution as many others have, because there were
00:25:02.080 many people, especially at the leadership levels in our country who honored God. But if you look at
00:25:08.500 our culture now, I think we can see there has been a term, a sea change in the last generation,
00:25:15.620 even. And if you, I would call it the commanding hikes of our arts, media, entertainment, professional
00:25:23.260 sports, much of the corporate world, much of government and, and academia. That many people at the,
00:25:30.680 in those commanding influencing heights in our culture are increasingly hostile, uh, toward, uh,
00:25:37.360 followers of Jesus. And they, they do not honor God. In fact, there's often a defiance of God.
00:25:43.160 So our culture has changed tremendously. And I think that we're coming to a tipping point.
00:25:51.280 And when you reach that tipping point and you start going downhill, things go much more, much faster.
00:25:57.060 So I think that, uh, this is accelerating and we're soon going to see a lot more intense opposition to
00:26:04.460 believers. And I think some of the forms that this will take, uh, the first thing is that people need
00:26:11.240 to prepare themselves, uh, to be really misunderstood because, you know, Jesus was, uh, called evil by many
00:26:20.400 people, even though he was the most loving, kind, generous person in history. Right. But he was, uh,
00:26:26.340 condemned as evil. Uh, and this is what people will say about you. They won't say, you know,
00:26:31.120 we disagree with your view on this, or we disagree with your theological, you know, uh, stance. No,
00:26:37.000 they're going to say you are evil and you have a message of hate. And because of this, you are a, a,
00:26:45.640 a threat to our society, people don't feel safe around you, your views, they're not inclusive
00:26:50.720 enough. They're not loving. And, uh, and because of that, they will, uh, de-platform and they will
00:26:59.560 isolate and marginalize people. And so this is something that most people aren't, aren't ready for
00:27:06.540 is, uh, to be seen as hateful. And that's very difficult. Yeah, definitely, definitely. A lot of people,
00:27:15.120 for that reason, because they don't want to be seen as hateful. They are either quiet on the
00:27:21.780 unpopular, uh, parts of Christianity that happened to intersect with, um, you know, social arguments
00:27:30.800 or social debates that we're having about, you know, gender or marriage or abortion or things
00:27:36.080 like that. They'll be quiet on those or they'll, they'll, they'll compromise on them altogether,
00:27:40.760 not realizing that in doing so they're basically saying, you know, I, I don't actually believe in
00:27:47.100 God's authority over these issues in my life, um, or just in the world. And so, um, what is your
00:27:54.480 encouragement to people who are tempted to compromise? They're tempted to be quiet because
00:27:59.340 they're scared of getting canceled. They're scared of being called a bigot. Um, what do you say to those
00:28:05.900 people who are facing those kinds of fears here? So first I understand the fear because I had a lot
00:28:12.860 of fear and the, there, there are some real risks. If we, if we are not prepared ahead of time, then
00:28:21.140 when those pressures come, there's a real risk that we will run away when you're afraid it's natural to
00:28:27.020 run from the thing that's making you fear and to, to compromise as you said. And so, uh, fear, another
00:28:32.920 thing is, uh, is compromise or I would call it deception. And Jesus warns about this, that, that
00:28:40.940 many people will be deceived. And I think the form this will take in our country is that many Christians
00:28:46.880 are going to become confused. Uh, there are, there are many leaders even now in churches who are
00:28:53.240 avoiding bringing up some of the subjects in the Bible that are hot subjects you could say. And they're
00:29:00.000 doing this because they don't want pressure from outside, which can be very real, but also because, uh,
00:29:05.200 there will be division in the church because many believers have, um, we've been marinating in, in, in
00:29:12.900 values, uh, in our culture that, that are not biblical, uh, that are actually against many of the
00:29:20.260 teachings of Jesus. And so within the church, even if, if, if a teacher comes out and teaches some of
00:29:27.080 the, what God says about gender issues or about marriage or, or sexual morality, any number of issues,
00:29:33.520 there can be real pushback within the church even. So I think what's going to happen is that, uh,
00:29:39.440 there is going to be an approved, uh, Christianity, uh, that, uh, that's acceptable and that aligns,
00:29:50.260 more with progressive values and non-believers, non-Christians will approve of this, uh, church,
00:29:57.260 you could say, this version of Christianity. And, uh, and they're going to be seen as very loving
00:30:03.640 and inclusive and they will be pitted against, contrasted with those who remain faithful to the
00:30:10.460 exclusivity of Jesus and the demands he makes for obedience to his followers. And they'll say those
00:30:15.080 people are people of hate. And so many Christians are going to be confused, uh, with this, this group
00:30:21.260 who identify as Christians, but who really are not, uh, embracing the teaching of the Bible. And,
00:30:27.420 and those other ones are going to be portrayed as evil. So that can cause a lot of confusion. And this
00:30:32.380 is how many people can be deceived. So how do I give an encouraging word about this? I, first I point
00:30:38.620 to the risk, but then I say, we, Noreen and I, my wife, Noreen and I would like to live a quiet and peaceful
00:30:46.060 life. Now we we've come to the conclusion. We won't be able to do that, that because of the times we live
00:30:54.400 in, I think there is a, a tidal wave of darkness that is about to break on our country. And I don't want
00:31:02.940 to live in fear of that, but knowing what's coming or believing that these things are coming and that
00:31:10.180 I cannot escape into just a life of a quiet and peaceful life. Then I have to take steps now to
00:31:17.740 prepare myself so that I am, uh, faithful and stand under pressure. Because if we don't do that,
00:31:24.320 then when the pressure comes, we can run. And so we prepare ahead of time so that when we are afraid,
00:31:31.460 we stand firm. And that is, what's really on my heart now is a sense of urgency that we're not
00:31:38.640 prepared and we're not ready for what's coming. And it is very important that we prepare ourselves so
00:31:45.640 that we, we don't end up being deceived and we, we don't end up running away and we don't end up
00:31:51.380 compromising. Right. Especially if we find ourselves in moments, seasons, years, maybe, um,
00:31:59.740 like the one that you experienced where you just, you felt hopeless and you felt abandoned by God.
00:32:07.560 There may be a time coming where a lot of Christians feel that way, where we are wondering,
00:32:13.920 hang on, where are you God? Are you, are you still here? Do you still care about me? Are your promises
00:32:20.060 still true? And I think you're absolutely right that Christians have to decide right now while we still
00:32:25.140 have the freedom to do so, that we are going to hide God's word in our hearts. I imagine that's
00:32:31.280 what, what you did to recall something like Matthew five, and you probably didn't have access to a Bible,
00:32:37.360 but also decide ahead of time that we are going to, by the power of the Holy spirit, persevere,
00:32:43.300 that we will count the cost of following Christ and count the cost of discipleship
00:32:48.960 and choose to follow him as an act of the will. Like you said, uh, when we're pressed up against
00:32:56.140 the wall, either literally or proverbially. Um, because I don't think most Americans,
00:33:01.200 I don't think we really have any idea of what it means, um, to be truly persecuted in the way that
00:33:10.400 you were for our faith in the way that millions and millions of Christians have, um, over time.
00:33:16.840 Do you agree? So you mentioned something that I think is, is key here. Well, several things,
00:33:22.380 but I won't remember them all, but one of them was, uh, this sense of offense toward God that many
00:33:28.920 people can have, especially, and Jesus warns about this. He says, the love of many will grow cold.
00:33:33.980 And if you look at the context is specifically because of the degree of evil that, that is allowed
00:33:40.700 and because of, um, the, the judgments that will come. And I, I believe our country is coming into
00:33:48.700 a time of serious judgment. I don't think, see how we can avoid it because of the point we've come to
00:33:54.660 as a culture. And so many Christians, uh, are going to be surprised that God will allow us as believers
00:34:02.540 to go through such difficult times and that he will allow the degree of difficulty that we will
00:34:10.780 experience. And one of the dangers is that during those, as you mentioned, sometimes we don't sense
00:34:18.580 the presence of God or me, where is your hand? How could you allow this to happen? How could a loving
00:34:23.240 God do this? And those are very big questions. And I had a lot of questions in prison. And what I had to
00:34:29.600 do at all of my questions and doubts were suffocating my relationship with God. It was
00:34:34.920 just strangling my friendship with him. And I had to make a decision to put those questions and
00:34:42.540 accusations aside and deal with the offense in my heart. Where are you God in the midst of my
00:34:49.580 difficulty? And this is one of the major challenges that we're going to face, not just in persecution,
00:34:55.160 but in, in the difficulties we encounter in normal life. Most Christians go through a time
00:35:00.360 of when they're, especially at a time of, uh, of difficulty, when they feel like God has left them
00:35:09.040 in the dark. And this is one of the, this became my theme verse in, in prison, Isaiah 50, 10. And,
00:35:16.040 and this verse goes something like this, for the one who walks in darkness and has no light,
00:35:22.260 let him trust in the name of his God and lean on him. And so God could have said, wait, you're in
00:35:29.820 darkness. Let me give you light. But he didn't. And he does eventually give light, but he, he left
00:35:36.840 them in darkness for a time. He said, when you're in darkness and you don't have light, then lean into
00:35:42.480 me. And this is what, one of the things that I was learning again and again and again, when I was
00:35:49.380 confused, when I didn't see the hand of God, when I felt like I was in darkness to just lean into him
00:35:55.780 and to remain faithful to him. So there are some things that we need to do that we can do ahead of
00:36:04.080 time to prepare. And one of them you're doing right now, which is we need to talk about it.
00:36:10.020 It's very much on my heart to, how can I speak to leaders or to influencers? And, and in a sense,
00:36:18.040 wake people up and say, look, if you don't talk to your people about this, then they're going to
00:36:23.380 be blindsided. And if they're blindsided, if they're not prepared, there's a much greater chance
00:36:28.880 that many of them are going to fall off. They're going to, to experience a failure in their
00:36:34.740 relationship with God. And so I emphasize some things. The number one thing is, is developing love
00:36:43.300 for God. And this is what I think best prepared me to go, uh, through the difficulties in prison
00:36:49.340 as for years, I focused on pursuing God's heart. And, and this prepared me so that when I went into
00:36:56.740 prison, God knew that I was going to break. He knew I'd go right up to the point of failure and have a
00:37:02.020 very, very difficult time. But he still let me go into that situation because he knew that because
00:37:09.880 his heart and that intimacy had built up that in the darkest time, I would turn toward him and not
00:37:14.360 away. So in a sense, he knew that he could trust me with that very difficult test. And this is so
00:37:21.980 important. Jesus said, the most important thing we can do is to love God with all our heart, soul,
00:37:26.320 mind, and strength. It's the most important thing we can do to prepare for difficult times
00:37:30.680 because we're willing to suffer for the, for the ones that we love. We see this in movies. We see it
00:37:37.720 in TV and literature that a father, uh, or a mother, they're willing to sacrifice themselves for
00:37:43.620 their children or that a husband or a wife. I look at my wife's example. I mentioned she was willing
00:37:49.120 to place herself at risk and stay in Turkey because of her love for me. Right. So if we love God, if we,
00:37:55.880 if we cultivate this love for God, then we are more willing to suffer for him and pay a price.
00:38:01.740 And so it is love that ends up fueling that endurance and that perseverance. And it's very
00:38:08.800 simple to, to, to do is just start saying, God, I, I don't love you the way I want to. Please help me
00:38:16.100 love you more. Make me hungry for you. Make me thirsty for you. So this is something that we need to
00:38:21.560 do now, step by step. Another thing you mentioned about it, right perspective of fear of God. You know,
00:38:29.880 Jesus said to his disciples, he says, do not fear those who can, you know, kill the body, fear the
00:38:36.380 one who can destroy both body and soul in hell. And he wasn't saying this with empty rhetoric. He was
00:38:43.820 the people he said this to most of them ended up giving their lives. They ended up being killed
00:38:49.400 because they remained faithful to Jesus. And so they had to make that choice. And I see now,
00:38:55.520 uh, we have a choice. Uh, we will have choices before us. Who are we going to fear more? And I
00:39:01.960 mean, a healthy fear, a right perspective. Who are we going to fear more being canceled by people
00:39:08.080 or being canceled by God? The consequences of obeying God, which can be persecution or the
00:39:14.360 consequences of not obeying God. And, uh, if we can get the right perspective, what really matters
00:39:22.080 most, that this is a very short life. And what we, what we do here has a tremendous bearing on,
00:39:30.060 on eternity for us. Yes. And then we can make the difficult choices.
00:39:35.600 Yes. We talk a lot on this podcast, you know, there's a lot that goes on in the world that can
00:39:40.960 make us feel very overwhelmed. And the nature of the news and social media make us feel like
00:39:45.560 we are omnipresent and we have to be omniscient. And just the weight of those God-like or, uh,
00:39:53.900 uh, God's characteristics that we don't actually have, but, um, feel like we have to carry can really
00:39:59.020 weigh us down. And the question that I get a lot is, what do I do? What do I do in the midst of all
00:40:03.900 of this? And, you know, we talk about practical things to do, especially when it comes to politics
00:40:08.640 and things like that. But we also emphasize, um, the, at least to the world, the radical nature of
00:40:15.760 daily and small obedience. I think seeing everything that we do, whether it's changing diapers with joy,
00:40:23.100 doing dishes with joy, um, loving our husbands and serving our husbands well, serving, um, our churches
00:40:29.580 selflessly, loving our neighbors, sharing the gospel where we are. All of this, I would also say,
00:40:35.420 correct me if I'm wrong, is preparation, uh, for oncoming opposition and potential persecution.
00:40:44.540 That if we can, um, exercise, like you were saying earlier, that muscle of surrender today,
00:40:51.320 when we don't face the same consequences that we may in a few years from now, when we truly are
00:40:58.080 persecuted, um, then that muscle can be built up. It can already be strong. If we're exercising that
00:41:04.960 muscle of faithful obedience right now, when we're not facing the ramifications that we may be one
00:41:12.260 day, uh, then we can be better prepared and better set up for when trials come. I think a lot of people
00:41:19.200 think that we can live life how we want to today, but when persecution comes, that's when we'll really
00:41:24.360 stand up. That's when we'll really obey. That's when we won't be scared to, to talk about Christ or to
00:41:30.320 share the gospel. But I mean, I think we're also, we're kidding ourselves to think that if we're not
00:41:34.920 willing to share the gospel today, just because we're scared that it's awkward or someone might not
00:41:40.260 like us, we're kidding ourselves to think that we will share the gospel when, um, you know,
00:41:46.180 imprisonment is the consequence of doing so. I think you underlined something very, very important
00:41:53.000 there, which is building, you could say building perseverance now, building, uh, you know, when I
00:42:02.500 first went into prison, somebody, uh, sent a word to me and it said all the times that Andrew, tell
00:42:08.660 Andrew all the times that he has stood are for now. And what he was saying is every time that I was
00:42:16.740 faithful in difficulties over our 25 years in Turkey, and there were a number, every time there was
00:42:22.520 something that was built. I was faithful with this difficult thing. I persevered. And that made me a
00:42:26.880 little stronger so that the next difficulty, when I went through that, I was able to face it. And
00:42:32.120 that one also stretched me to my limit and it made me stronger. So there was an accumulation
00:42:38.300 and all of these over the years were intended to, to prepare me for the really intense tests that I had.
00:42:46.240 Yeah. So one of, one of the things that we can do to prepare is to emphasize, to cultivate
00:42:52.660 perseverance. And the way that you do that is you have to do it. You have to be faithful now
00:42:58.460 in difficulties and you determine that I am going to be, well, that I'm going to be determined to be
00:43:07.860 obedient. And as you do that now, there's an accumulation. There is a strength that is built up.
00:43:13.600 Yeah, absolutely. I, I've never run a marathon. My husband ran a marathon, but I remember when I
00:43:19.940 trained for a half marathon and I was not an athletic person. I was not someone who liked to
00:43:24.840 exercise, but I decided that I was going to train for about a year starting out. I couldn't even run
00:43:31.120 five minutes without stopping. And, um, I started out doing that. And then I built up by the time I got
00:43:36.940 to race day. I, every mile that I got to, that was hard. I could tell myself, okay, I've done this
00:43:44.080 before. I've run two miles. I've run five miles. I've run 10 miles before and having, even when it
00:43:50.220 was hard and never having run that specific course before on race day, knowing that I've already done
00:43:57.840 incrementally, I've already run this far before it helped me keep going. And in those last few miles,
00:44:04.840 I'm like, okay, I've only got four miles left. I've run four miles before. I know that I can do
00:44:09.920 that. If I had showed up on race day, never having run, never having trained, there would be no way
00:44:17.820 I would be able to finish. And obviously that's not a perfect metaphor because the power of the
00:44:23.180 Holy spirit obviously carries us, carries us over the finish line. But talking about that faith and
00:44:28.840 that surrender and that obedience, like a muscle, it really almost is like training for
00:44:33.920 a marathon. And then when you do finish that race, there are other trials and other difficult
00:44:39.160 things that you go through in life that you look back. And I still think about that half marathon.
00:44:44.000 Wow. That was something I never thought I could do, but I could, I did, I trained for it and I did
00:44:48.220 it. And there are still things today that that applies to that, that helps me through today.
00:44:52.240 I would say metaphorically faith is, is, is very similar, especially when you're talking about a test
00:44:57.680 of persecution, right? I, I don't know that I can say it better than you just said it.
00:45:04.640 Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much for, um, all of your encouragement and your
00:45:09.440 inspiration, your advice to people. Um, can people follow you? Can they support you? Can they go to
00:45:15.220 any resources that you provide anywhere online? Uh, yeah, we have a webpage that's called
00:45:20.880 wavestarters.org. And that, that goes back to a prayer I prayed in 2007, father God, draw me so
00:45:28.300 close to your heart that you'll be able to trust me with the authority to start waves. And that is
00:45:34.580 what began a pursuit of God's heart. It's that pursuit that prepared me, prepared my heart then
00:45:40.940 for the, the very, the difficulties of prison. And, uh, that's what we call our, uh, our ministry.
00:45:47.600 Now we're, we're focused on the Muslim world. We still have a missionary call, but what's really
00:45:52.840 on my heart, uh, for the U S and this is an assignment I feel for God for the U S is to help
00:45:59.360 to prepare the bride to stand in difficult times. And one of the reasons he allowed me, he was doing
00:46:05.740 many things with my imprisonment, but one of them was, uh, allowing me to be broken again and again and
00:46:11.260 each time I was broken, I had to learn perseverance at a deeper level. And the reason he was doing this,
00:46:18.740 I believe is I told my wife a number of times, uh, God chose the wrong man. I just can't do this.
00:46:26.800 And then I came to a point where I said, you know, Noreen, maybe God chose the right man because he
00:46:30.980 wanted a weak man who in spite of his weakness would persevere and in that way be an encouragement
00:46:36.600 to other weak people. And so, uh, I think that one of the things God was doing was preparing me so
00:46:43.260 that I can encourage others who are going to face a difficult times and to underline in spite of our
00:46:51.280 weakness, we can persevere. We must persevere. We, we, there are choices that we make now that will
00:46:59.480 set us up because God doesn't want us. This is one of the, I want to encourage people. There are
00:47:05.120 difficulties coming, but, uh, Daniel, the prophet Daniel, the words that he said in Daniel 11 32,
00:47:11.620 that verse is just really in my heart. Uh, for the ones who know their God, the people who know their
00:47:18.900 God shall stand and take action. So if we know our God, then we will be faithful to him, but it's not
00:47:28.200 just surviving. It's not just standing, although that is so important, but it's, we will also take action.
00:47:34.780 So I think that God has, uh, assignments for the people who are listening to this or who are
00:47:39.860 watching this. Uh, there, there is going to be a rising tide of, of darkness. Darkness is going to
00:47:46.200 increase. It's going to be more intense, but at the same time, God is going to be purifying his church
00:47:52.040 and many people who are in darkness are going to, going to end up turning away from that and coming
00:47:57.500 to the children of light. We're the children of light. He has assignments for us.
00:48:01.420 Yeah. And so I want to encourage people, uh, prepare yourself so that yes, you will not only
00:48:07.780 stand, but because God is going to use you in a very powerful way. He has assignments for you.
00:48:14.240 So yes, if people want to pray for us, they can go to our wave starters.org and we need people who
00:48:21.200 will partner with us. Definitely. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate all of your encouragement
00:48:26.780 and your insight. I know a lot of people are going to get a lot out of this. So thank you. Thank you
00:48:31.700 for taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. Blessings to you.