Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 25, 2021


Ep 426 ｜ Should Christians Support the Death Penalty？


Episode Stats

Length

47 minutes

Words per Minute

166.37846

Word Count

7,954

Sentence Count

3

Misogynist Sentences

2

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 hey guys welcome to relatable today we are finally going to talk about the death penalty i've been
00:00:16.680 wanting to talk about this since january well i haven't been wanting to talk about it because
00:00:20.540 it's a very sad subject to me i don't like thinking about it i don't like talking about it
00:00:24.860 but it is a very contentious ethical moral and theological issue that i think is important for
00:00:30.740 us to be able to confront biblically and be able to talk about not just in the secular political
00:00:38.280 sense but also with fellow believers with whom we disagree this conversation was brewing back
00:00:46.840 in january pretty heavily especially in christian circles due to the executions of several black
00:00:52.860 americans that some people claimed were innocent or just claimed should not be executed the trump
00:00:59.760 administration actually reinstated the federal death penalty after several years of it not
00:01:06.000 not being instated there's been a lot that we've had to talk about since december so
00:01:13.400 i just uh haven't been able to sit down and organize all the research that's required for it
00:01:20.220 and even today we are not going to be able to get into every single argument for and against the death
00:01:26.180 penalty i really want to focus on whether or not there is a biblical backing for it or whether it is
00:01:34.300 categorically biblically and morally wrong uh this is a subject that i have been i'm doing a lot of
00:01:41.760 reading on a lot of research in fact when people were talking about it the most online i didn't really
00:01:46.620 talk about it that much i was doing a lot of research because i knew what i thought that
00:01:50.440 i believed but i hadn't really done a whole lot of reading into it and so like my husband can tell
00:01:57.300 you i was up probably until like 2 or 3 a.m um one of the nights that all these conversations were
00:02:05.300 going on online just reading this ethics book this christian ethics book um that i have trying to
00:02:12.480 understand all the different perspectives i've done a lot of considering of both sides a lot of
00:02:17.840 thinking a lot of scouring the scriptures a lot of praying um this is something i really don't want
00:02:24.920 to be wrong on we're talking about human beings made in god's image we're talking about people's lives
00:02:31.980 we're talking about human beings being killed by the state i mean it's literally a matter of life
00:02:37.220 and death and also just from like a conservative perspective thinking about like how much power do
00:02:42.660 i want to give the state to be able to um do these kinds of things literally execute no pun intended
00:02:50.120 these kinds of things um it's not something that i feel the urge or the need to fall one way or another
00:02:58.440 on in order to fit in with fellow conservatives or republicans or christians i know lots of conservative
00:03:04.300 christian republicans who are anti-death penalty and many who are pro-death penalty so i really have
00:03:11.160 felt total freedom in studying this issue and coming back and coming to a sound conclusion based
00:03:16.700 on the facts and based on the best theological arguments that exist um i thought this was
00:03:22.760 interesting according to gallup in may 2020 a record low of 54 percent of americans said that they believe
00:03:27.960 in the death penalty or said that they believe that it's morally acceptable in october 2018 49 percent
00:03:34.040 of americans also a new low said they believe the death penalty was applied fairly the 2019 national
00:03:39.680 survey found that a record 60 percent of americans favored life imprisonment over the death penalty
00:03:44.960 which gallup called a dramatic shift from prior years so that's interesting i'm not sure um honestly
00:03:51.700 though that we could say with a straight face that our society has become more moral like more
00:03:55.860 serious about the sanctity of life more compassionate in recent years and yet support for the death penalty
00:04:01.820 has waned and so it's just an interesting question like what's behind that like what moral direction
00:04:07.260 ethical direction is the country actually going in and we won't really get to answer that question
00:04:12.460 thoroughly today but it is something to think about uh the resource that helped me the most that a lot
00:04:18.060 of this episode is based on is that christian ethics book that i mentioned ethics for a brave new
00:04:22.480 world by john and paul feinberg i highly recommend it uh ethics for a brave new world if you are a part
00:04:29.980 of women's book club with me on facebook uh we read brave new world a couple months ago very disturbing
00:04:37.260 but they have created this long thick uh ethics book on it that um helps you break down all of the
00:04:45.320 issues that come up in brave new world uh but from a biblical perspective um it was not the only resource
00:04:51.980 i consulted but it helped me the most navigate the different uh stances and weigh them against
00:04:58.840 scripture let me tell you up front um at least part of my belief based on what i've read it's a little
00:05:05.400 nuanced if you will uh there is not from what i can tell any biblical basis for the belief that the death
00:05:14.880 penalty is categorically immoral or unchristian scripture just does not support the idea that christians
00:05:21.280 must be against the death penalty or that the death penalty is in general unjust or cruel or that the
00:05:27.440 need for the death penalty ended with jesus's crucifixion uh we will go through these points
00:05:32.740 today there may however be a more compelling political or practical reasons to oppose the death
00:05:39.800 penalty perhaps you believe our justice system is simply unfair it gives favor to the privileged at
00:05:44.960 the expense of the underprivileged maybe you don't like the idea of the state having the power to kill
00:05:49.220 maybe it's a cost issue for you if you're more libertarian leaning it costs too much taxpayer money
00:05:55.180 maybe you're concerned with the racial disparity uh in the death penalty that you believe to be caused
00:06:01.200 not by disproportionate crime and homicide rates uh but actual bias in the justice system against black
00:06:07.180 people perhaps you are concerned that the risk of potentially executing even one person who did not
00:06:14.520 actually commit the crime in question is just too high for you uh to morally ethically accept these
00:06:20.780 are all in my opinion totally valid and very reasonable concerns and we're going to go through
00:06:26.160 some of them today using the best arguments uh that we have available but i am first and primarily
00:06:35.320 concerned with the arguments that the death penalty is as a rule immoral not pro-life and unbiblical
00:06:44.180 i disagree with that assessment entirely uh first let's start with the charge that the death penalty
00:06:52.060 is unbiblical um i watched one video of a pretty um you know a pretty known commentator making this
00:06:59.480 claim and what i thought was interesting was their use of bible verses to support their view
00:07:04.400 totally decontextualized one which didn't actually surprise me because this person does not
00:07:09.480 believe in the inerrancy or even the it seems the moral authority of scripture and yet to make their
00:07:16.460 point in an effort to convince christians they eisegetically pulled verses out that they hoped
00:07:21.580 would bolster their views but it didn't it just didn't logically i didn't find the video compelling or
00:07:27.500 interesting um however i could see how someone who maybe doesn't know a whole lot about the bible or is
00:07:34.520 unsure about what the bible says could hear that kind of argument and agree with it because um it
00:07:40.820 sounds good like it sounds right um and uh it sounds social justicey it feels good uh plus that's the
00:07:51.540 popular progressive belief nowadays abortion is good or at the very least necessary and the death penalty
00:07:57.440 is bad and never necessary so if you're coming into a video like that and you just want someone to
00:08:04.460 confirm your bias then someone kind of decontextualizing a bunch of bible verses that they don't actually
00:08:09.540 believe in the authority in and sprinkling it into their argument may be compelling to you but i don't
00:08:15.800 want to deal with those kinds of arguments i think that's probably the most popular kind of argument that
00:08:20.000 i've seen from professing christians about or opposing the death penalty but those aren't even really worth
00:08:26.000 dealing with because there's so many fundamental problems with their reading and interpretation
00:08:31.320 and application of the text um so that kind of argument is weak um but there are a lot stronger
00:08:39.700 arguments i think like i think that there are some really interesting and compelling and intellectual
00:08:44.840 intelligent biblical arguments that we should absolutely give airtime to appreciate and then try
00:08:51.740 to break down so there are four big arguments that thoughtful christians typically employ when
00:08:57.220 they're arguing against the death penalty uh the first one is inconsistency of biblical application
00:09:02.920 so this argument asserts that christians who support the death penalty based on the old testament law
00:09:08.440 given to israel uh do so for murder for example but not for the other crimes for which god commands the
00:09:15.820 death penalty to be death penalty to be dealt and so for those people who say well yeah you know we
00:09:21.380 shouldn't ban the death penalty because look the old testament law requires the death penalty for
00:09:26.260 certain crimes so people who christians who oppose the death penalty will say okay well do you also
00:09:32.580 support the death penalty for witches for adulterers for anyone who strikes their mother or father because
00:09:37.800 god did like those things were punishable by death in ancient israel but most christians today would say that
00:09:44.820 they don't support the death penalty in these cases and so the opponent to the death penalty would say why
00:09:51.380 why if you were using the old testament law as your basis for saying that the death penalty should be used
00:09:57.920 today would you decide that it should only be applied to those who are convicted of murder and not the
00:10:03.200 other crimes that god prescribes it for and beyond that why say that this old testament law is binding
00:10:09.960 today but not god's laws for israel against eating shellfish or mixing fabrics for example
00:10:15.920 this argument also points out that these were all laws god gave ancient israel as his covenant people
00:10:21.680 who were living in a theocracy we don't live in a theocracy today and there is no command for us to
00:10:27.120 form a theocracy no precedent set in the new testament for us doing so so we don't need to abide by the laws
00:10:33.520 for ancient israel including any law that mandates the death penalty so that's one argument that
00:10:39.660 christians have against the death penalty the second argument that thoughtful christians make
00:10:46.340 is that the law of christ supersedes the law of moses and that the law of christ does not include a
00:10:52.960 mandate for the death penalty and actually does away with the need for it so whereas the old testament says
00:10:59.440 eye for eye and tooth for tooth jesus the argument goes brought a new law and we see in matthew 5 38
00:11:06.780 through 48 that jesus tells us not to resist our enemies not to retaliate but to offer them the other
00:11:12.680 cheek to strike after they've already struck one uh we're told uh even to give more to the one who has
00:11:19.600 taken from us to love our enemies to show mercy to those who hurt us so how possibly could the death
00:11:26.040 penalty fit into that this argument also points to warnings in the new testament against revenge
00:11:31.140 such as romans 12 19 beloved never avenge yourselves but leave to leave it to the wrath of god for it is
00:11:37.820 written vengeance is mine i will repay says the lord so um the new testament shows that god is against
00:11:47.460 retribution he's against revenge he's against repaying evil with evil and christians are rather to
00:11:53.200 pursue reconciliation and restoration this the argument goes rules out any justification for
00:12:00.080 capital punishment the third big argument made by christians who oppose the death penalty is like
00:12:06.100 the second that the emphasis on grace and mercy um in the new testament supersedes any emphasis on
00:12:13.360 punishment so we see examples um of god showing mercy even in the old testament to murders like moses and
00:12:19.900 david according to the law of israel both of them were deserving of the death penalty david for
00:12:25.880 orchestrating murder and for adultery not only did god not uh allow him or moses who also killed someone
00:12:32.980 uh to be put to death he used them in incredible and huge ways he calls david a man after his own heart
00:12:40.200 he showed special favor to them the book of hosea is about hosea showing his wife gomer grace over and over
00:12:47.680 again after she commits adultery and this is often used as a depiction of god's relentless love his forgiveness
00:12:55.420 his welcoming back of his people after they rebel then repent so christians who oppose the death penalty would say
00:13:03.400 this shows that even if it's a permissible punishment even in the old testament it's not a necessary punishment
00:13:09.800 and in light of jesus's emphasis on mercy and forgiveness and restoration we should choose these
00:13:15.860 options we should choose restitution and grace every time over execution um they may also point to the
00:13:22.680 story of the woman caught in adultery in john 8 a crowd was about to uh stone her for the act and jesus
00:13:30.720 stops them and causes them to drop their stones and walk away by saying he who has not sinned let him
00:13:37.200 be the first one to cast a stone jesus then tells the woman he does not condemn her he tells her to go
00:13:43.880 and sin no more so jesus they would say chose mercy he could have chosen the death penalty which was
00:13:50.180 prescribed for her crime but he didn't so uh they say we should do the same thing we should follow jesus's
00:13:59.100 example in this way and then there is the argument that the bible or the biblical standard for the death
00:14:05.700 penalty um in the old testament even though it was applied to more crimes than just murder um was
00:14:12.240 higher than we have today in that um the standards were more difficult to reach and because we don't
00:14:19.480 have those same standards in the united states because we're living in a non-theocracy we shouldn't
00:14:25.200 have the death penalty because they obviously like our standards are not matching up with god's
00:14:31.840 qualifications for prescribing the death penalty um david llewellyn scholar says that there are five
00:14:37.540 aspects of the mosaic application of the death penalty deuteronomy 17 4 says guilt must be absolutely
00:14:43.640 certain so not like here where it is just beyond a reasonable doubt um deuteronomy 19 15 says there must
00:14:50.860 be more than um one eyewitness to convict deuteronomy 19 16 says that anyone who gives false testimony in
00:14:59.500 court is to have done to him what would be done to the one who is being prosecuted so if someone were
00:15:07.100 on trial for murder and someone lied in their testimony to make them seem guilty um that false
00:15:12.940 witness was to be executed deuteronomy 17 8 through 9 says undecided cases would defer to legal
00:15:19.760 experts in the uh in the united states the system uh in our system a jury must decide and then also
00:15:27.600 number five the death penalty was mandatory for the crimes for which god prescribed it if the person
00:15:32.200 was found guilty that's exodus 21 12 so this goes back to the first point if we are really going to
00:15:38.520 justify the death penalty by the old testament law then shouldn't we apply it as the old testament law
00:15:45.240 required so these are all the big arguments that christians who oppose the death penalty on biblical
00:15:51.420 grounds make they may have other reasons like racism in our justice system or something like that
00:15:57.880 but using scripture these are the grounds they usually stand on when it comes to denouncing the
00:16:03.700 death penalty um they don't regard for example wrote or genesis 9 6 or romans 13 4 as prescribing
00:16:10.540 the death penalty necessarily and certainly not for us today so i think these are all very compelling
00:16:17.080 arguments and if i were to stop right there maybe a lot of you would be convinced or you'd be solidified
00:16:22.280 in your stance against the death penalty but we have to take a look at those arguments that i've read
00:16:27.360 um and we have to look at the arguments to the contrary and then we can discuss it so
00:16:32.740 in response uh to the argument that those who support the death penalty demonstrate an inconsistency
00:16:39.220 of biblical application when it comes to the old testament law well god demands the death penalty for
00:16:45.100 murder before he demands the death penalty for murder plus other crimes for ancient israel so god's
00:16:52.300 demand of the death penalty a life for a life actually predates the giving of the law through
00:16:57.220 moses this is a command given to noah in genesis 9 verse 6 whoever sheds the blood of man by man
00:17:06.120 shall his blood be shed for god made man in his own image and the reason that this particular part of
00:17:12.520 the covenant that god makes with noah is so significant and why it is argued that it still
00:17:17.900 applies today is because it gives us a why that transcends time so why demand life for life execution for
00:17:25.540 murder because god made man in his image this verse tells us why that is god's reason for demanding
00:17:33.720 the death penalty when it comes to murder because of what is established in the first chapter of the
00:17:39.440 bible that man unlike any other creature that god created is created in the image of god which means
00:17:45.780 we have the capacity to make rational moral choices but it's not just that because of course there are
00:17:51.600 people who because of some kind of disability don't necessarily have that capacity even they are made
00:18:00.120 all people are made in the image of god we are still image bearers of god because we have a soul that
00:18:07.340 lives forever eternity is written on our hearts we have an eternal destiny that's determined by christ
00:18:14.920 and no other creature no other kind of creature on earth does therefore we as humans have value above
00:18:22.720 every other creature we have the authority the obligation to steward the earth unlike any other
00:18:28.460 creature we have responsibility and redemption unlike any other creature this is what it means that god
00:18:35.120 created human beings differently than anything else in all creation and because of that because we were
00:18:41.140 made in his image and because of the value that god associates with his image bearers he declares
00:18:47.220 according to this passage that the only just and acceptable punishment for purposely taking the life of an
00:18:54.020 image bearer is to take the life of the one who took it it shows just how much he values human beings
00:19:01.320 that it would take the execution of another human being another image bearer to make up for it and
00:19:06.960 because this is uh this precedes the law of ancient israel and because it's predicated on something we
00:19:14.820 still know to be true that we are all made in god's image you could certainly say that the death penalty
00:19:20.360 for murder is something that god still considers just today uh this was a command that was at the time
00:19:27.900 given to everyone who lived because noah and his family um were uh were the only ones who were alive
00:19:35.060 it was prescriptive uh given the translation in the context not just predictive and the fact that
00:19:41.540 the death penalty is demanded at all in the old testament uh both here and later in the official
00:19:47.320 giving of the law to israel and because we know that god is the great i am who therefore does not
00:19:53.340 change we cannot say the death penalty is categorically unmerciful or unjust or biblically
00:20:00.460 wrong that would be saying that god is not just was but is unjust and unmerciful and wrong because he
00:20:08.220 does not change again there may be arguments for why we in america today should not use the death penalty
00:20:14.880 but one of them is not that it's unbiblical or not pro-life to say that as a christian that executing
00:20:22.960 a convicted murderer is not pro-life would again be saying that god is not pro-life but considering
00:20:29.400 that god regards babies in the womb as people with purpose as we see in jeremiah 1 and psalm 139
00:20:35.920 and says that child sacrifice is worthy of death in leviticus 20 he obviously thinks that the execution
00:20:42.660 for murder is just but murder of children is not obviously it's honestly kind of even hard for me to
00:20:49.240 understand someone's mentality that would equate those two things or who amazingly think that killing
00:20:54.980 babies in the womb should be a legalized choice but the death penalty for murderers should be abolished
00:21:00.240 and then they have the audacity to say that people who are against killing babies and support the death
00:21:05.380 penalty for murderers are the ones who lack compassion by the way just a quick aside potassium chloride
00:21:11.800 is used both to start uh stop the heart of a baby in the womb who is being aborted at a certain stage
00:21:18.360 and in lethal injection executions so people who are for abortion are literally for the death penalty
00:21:25.260 for babies that's wicked in response to the other argument um that the law of christ supersedes what's
00:21:34.600 commanded in the old testament even that uh which predates the establishment of israel and its laws
00:21:40.580 uh jesus clearly does tell us in matthew 5 that we are to love our enemies the argument um by those
00:21:48.640 who oppose the death penalty is that you can't love your enemies and execute them well if you go back
00:21:55.340 in that same chapter which we always look at every verse in context in verses 21 through 22 jesus points
00:22:02.100 out not just the seriousness of murder but also of malicious anger hatred in your heart that he says is
00:22:08.600 actually akin to murder he says these sins are liable to hell so obviously when it comes to
00:22:14.720 murder jesus is absolutely for and promising um retributive justice at least eternally when it comes
00:22:22.700 to unrepentive unrepentant murderers and hateful people now that verse alone does not support the death
00:22:30.500 penalty but read in light of a passage like romans 13 which says the government is an institution
00:22:36.980 instituted by god to carry out his justice against the wrongdoer his wrath against the wrongdoer
00:22:43.620 uh here on earth it's hard to rule out the possibility that god would be for a kind of
00:22:50.240 uh retributive justice for a murderer that includes the death penalty plus when we look at the context of
00:22:57.600 matthew 5 we see uh that when jesus tells us to turn the other cheek he is talking about our
00:23:03.780 interpersonal relationships if you try to apply this phrase turn the other cheek to governments
00:23:10.580 then logically you are arguing that the state should never punish anyone for anything that you
00:23:16.000 should just be able to steal and kidnap and rape and torture and plagiarize without any official
00:23:22.000 repercussions like surely that's not what you mean and surely that's not a society that would please god
00:23:27.800 because it would result in the oppression of the most vulnerable of the weakest in our society
00:23:32.600 something that we know that he hates surely that's not what god means when he says the governments
00:23:37.600 are supposed to execute justice on his behalf in romans 13 so my question is why would matthew 5
00:23:45.420 mean a prohibition of the death penalty but not prohibition of other kinds of punishment if you
00:23:51.560 are going to apply turn the other cheek not just to interpersonal relationships but to anything the
00:23:55.940 government is allowed to do the answer is it doesn't it's not talking about how the government
00:24:01.060 should order society it's talking about what you personally as a disciple of christ are now called
00:24:06.360 to do that also includes romans 12 19 through 20 which tells us that we are not to take vengeance
00:24:12.060 upon ourselves but are rather to be kind to our enemies and trust god that does not mean it cannot
00:24:18.680 mean logically or biblically that god is condoning an unjust government that allows anarchy and violence
00:24:25.560 to rule at the expense of those who can't defend themselves in response to the emphasis on um on
00:24:34.120 mercy that we see in the stories of david moses gomer these are absolutely examples of god extending grace
00:24:44.080 grace means unmerited favor so god can do what he wants to do he can give grace when he wants to give
00:24:50.940 grace and where he wants to give grace uh there are lots of other cases where god does not extend grace
00:24:56.360 he punishes the wrongdoer he does not command his people to make exceptions uh when he is giving the
00:25:01.980 law to israel but he because he is god does make exceptions when it means his glory for example god gave
00:25:08.680 moses grace for murder by allowing him to live he did not give him grace when he struck the rock twice
00:25:14.680 he didn't allow him to see the promised land so the cases in which god shows grace to murderers
00:25:20.640 or evildoers don't serve as the rule they are never offered as examples on which we are supposed to build
00:25:27.040 our penal codes uh and they don't supersede genesis 9 which again is predicated on an eternal truth that
00:25:34.460 we are all made in his image
00:25:36.280 but let's talk about this example uh in john 8 of the woman that's caught in adultery who was almost
00:25:52.160 stoned for her sin before jesus intervened is this an example of jesus in his new law doing away with
00:26:00.560 the death penalty uh the truth is jesus is not attempting in this case to do away with the death
00:26:07.600 penalty that's not what this passage is about it's an important passage but it's not about that
00:26:12.320 he actually doesn't question if you read the passage the justice of the death penalty what he's
00:26:17.740 questioning is the authority of those who are about to execute the death penalty in other words
00:26:22.780 he was pointing out the discrediting disqualifying uh disqualifying nature of hypocrisy
00:26:28.980 as he does continuously to the religious leaders throughout the gospels the problem with the
00:26:35.760 pharisees was not that they were too faithful to the law or that they were too holy or that they
00:26:40.540 took god's commands too seriously is that they appeared to keep the law externally but inside they
00:26:46.800 were filled with unrighteousness with self-glory with arrogance with pride with hate and they were
00:26:52.920 without a love for god and the compassion for others to which god calls his people they ignored the
00:26:58.640 heart of the law and instead they used superficial obedience to make themselves superior to everyone
00:27:04.260 else god hates that kind of pride and hypocrisy he says so throughout the old testament prophets he says
00:27:10.800 so in the form of jesus in the gospels this is another example of that not a statement about the
00:27:18.220 legitimacy of the death penalty the fact is the people who were about to stone this woman were hypocrites
00:27:25.120 because they in this very instance were actually breaking the law the law required according to
00:27:31.320 deuteronomy 22 22 through 24 that um that both adulterers man and woman were to be tried and
00:27:40.600 executed guilt had to be established by two to three eyewitnesses says deuteronomy 17 6 through 7
00:27:46.400 the witnesses motives must be pure as exodus 23 1 through 8 says so when jesus says you who are without
00:27:54.120 sin be the one to cast the first stone he's not talking about he who is without sin in general
00:28:00.320 since that would again negate any and all punishment for any law breaking ever since we are all sinful
00:28:07.320 it actually makes more sense that he's pointing out their sinfulness and hypocrisy in this case because
00:28:14.100 they were not abiding by the old testament law which disqualifies them from inflicting punishment
00:28:21.500 so when jesus tells this woman caught in adultery no one here condemns you and neither do i condemn you
00:28:28.400 he is actually conforming once again to mosaic law the word condemn is uh is a legal word that
00:28:36.840 means to convict he tells her to go and sin no more which is another indication uh that he is emphasizing
00:28:44.940 not flouting the law so this is a story that serves as a depiction of what pleases god obedience done
00:28:52.960 from a sincere obedient uh submissive pure heart he hates hypocrisy jesus was showing that where there
00:29:01.540 is hypocrisy there is injustice and where there is injustice and hypocrisy on the side of the accuser
00:29:10.060 there is relief for the accused it's a mistrial it doesn't mean that she was actually innocent that
00:29:18.260 she hadn't done any wrong but that her punishment was not going to be just according to god's standards
00:29:23.660 and so she got another chance but jesus tells her to use this chance to repent from sin i do believe
00:29:31.500 that he paid attention to her and used her situation as an opportunity to teach this lesson and to spare her
00:29:37.760 from unjust death and that that is merciful and shows us the pure and the loving heart of god
00:29:44.540 but this is not a story that indicates the biblical necessity for a government to do away with the death
00:29:51.440 penalty we just don't see that kind of substantiation here the law of christ in the new testament does give
00:29:57.460 us new commands for how to live as a church we are no longer bound to ceremonial law not because god
00:30:03.880 changed or because it doesn't matter but because ceremonial law was used to set israel apart and
00:30:10.580 make them clean before god then when jesus came he became our righteousness setting us apart and making
00:30:17.000 us clean before god through his sacrifice we don't have to offer animal sacrifices or burnt sacrifices anymore
00:30:24.020 because he became our sacrifice he became our cleansing once and for all forever but jesus not only
00:30:31.700 affirms the moral laws of the old testament he doubles down on them so he says don't murder but also don't
00:30:40.240 even be angry in your heart towards your brother he says don't commit adultery but also don't even
00:30:45.400 lust don't even look at a woman with that intent and desire he fulfills the law by getting to the heart
00:30:51.940 of what god always meant by the moral laws in the first place they were never supposed to be for
00:30:57.960 superficial legalism and works-based righteousness they were always to be done by faith through a
00:31:04.180 sincere love for god so jesus did not come and obliterate the moral code he took the moral code
00:31:12.040 to another level that is impossible to reach by the way without his help he came not to say do whatever
00:31:18.540 you want to it's fine there shouldn't be any consequences he says no do what god has told you is
00:31:24.220 right and do it from a heart that is uh that is in sincere and total submission to god with humility
00:31:31.480 and love and grace and truth and while i jesus will become your cleansing and i will justify you through
00:31:39.520 my death your faith in me and your justification that you've received should motivate you to obey
00:31:46.600 the lord and follow what he says is right so there is no there is no basis in this particular passage and
00:31:56.120 from what we see in jesus to do away with the death penalty or that the death penalty um suddenly becomes
00:32:03.520 null and void or something that a government should not or cannot use especially when it comes to
00:32:10.540 the genesis 9 directive especially when it comes to those qualifications of it being a convicted murderer
00:32:18.800 that is put to death this passage in john 8 does show us a lot and yes we do see so much mercy and
00:32:25.380 grace coming in the form of jesus christ that we can learn from we do learn about forgiveness but that
00:32:32.720 does not mean that a government is to neglect especially in light of romans 13 is to neglect their role
00:32:39.420 to execute uh god's wrath on the wrongdoer in a way that is proportional and good and just and right
00:32:46.740 um okay next next argument in response to the argument that the biblical standards are not met
00:32:55.040 today in our justice system for the death penalty because we don't live in a theocracy and therefore
00:33:00.320 we do not and cannot possibly have the proper parameters in place to be able to justify uh or justly
00:33:06.880 issue execution so my response to that is yes we do not live in a theocracy so we don't have the exact
00:33:14.580 same process but that does not necessarily rule out the legitimacy of the death penalty altogether
00:33:20.780 you could say based on these that we need to reform our our system to match israel's exactly maybe you
00:33:27.160 would say that and i'd you know i'd be open to that that would mean that we're living in a theocracy
00:33:31.080 that would just mean some reforming that would make it more difficult to issue the death penalty
00:33:36.640 but to simply say because our regulations don't match those of the old testament law that the death
00:33:44.100 penalty is immoral per se doesn't make a whole lot of sense i would be for more consistently applied
00:33:51.120 and even stricter standards across the board but i don't see how this point eliminates the possibility
00:33:56.840 of a just justice system issuing the death penalty but because we are not ancient israel we are not
00:34:04.600 a theocracy and because we don't apply the ceremonial laws we also are not obligated to apply the death
00:34:11.080 penalty to all the crimes that god applied it to in the old testament i think that we can look at those
00:34:17.120 crimes and see wow god really hated that and still does but a democratic society is not obligated
00:34:24.300 to establish the death penalty for those crimes like striking your mother or father or witchcraft
00:34:30.740 in the same way that i think there's more of a moral imperative to establish the death penalty
00:34:36.180 for murder based on the reasoning that we see in genesis 9 about people being made in god's image
00:34:42.440 and then we have the whole romans 13 argument for the biblical justification for the death penalty
00:34:50.660 romans 13 3 through 5 says this for rulers are not a terror to good conduct but to bad would you have
00:34:57.080 no fear of the one who is in authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is
00:35:02.280 god's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for he does not bear the sword in vain for he
00:35:09.120 is the servant of god an avenger who carries out god's wrath on the wrongdoer now obviously we know
00:35:15.940 there are bad corrupt governments probably definitely more bad ones than good ones uh the
00:35:21.620 command here in this chapter is actually twofold it's not just to us it's also to governments that
00:35:26.540 governments are to be god's servant in subjective uh in subjection to him and his definitions of evil
00:35:33.940 and good justice and injustice and also for us as christians to do everything we can to be in
00:35:41.540 subjection to the government as long as that does not cause us to sin since as we see here god's
00:35:47.440 authority is actually higher than the government's authority but this passage is clear that as god's
00:35:53.900 servant a government is not just allowed to but actually commanded to bear the sword and carry out
00:36:00.180 god's wrath on the wrongdoer this is the new testament god through paul speaking to christians in
00:36:06.460 rome now some scholars don't see that phrase bear the sword as uh an explicit mention of the death
00:36:12.960 penalty or a condoning of the death penalty but many scholars do considering paul's jewish background
00:36:18.560 and his mention of a lethal weapon here um but at the very least this passage authorizes punishment
00:36:25.600 on those who do wrong according to god's definition of wrong and as i've already argued that certainly
00:36:31.240 cannot rule out biblically the death penalty for murder now as for the other concerns about our
00:36:39.300 system in general racial disparities socioeconomic disparities the possibility of an innocent person
00:36:44.940 being put to death that i completely understand that trips me as well um these are all legitimate
00:36:52.200 concerns i am totally willing to talk about regulatory changes uh that make the doling out of all
00:36:59.760 punishments but particularly one as serious as the death penalty as clear and as consistent as possible
00:37:06.360 but for those who go further and actually say that the death penalty is immoral because justice should
00:37:13.080 always be restorative rather than retaliatory or that it's cruel and unusual or that it doesn't serve as
00:37:20.200 any deterrent on these things i just i can't agree on those arguments justice systems can have four
00:37:27.920 functions restoration rehabilitation that's one restitution two deterrence three and retribution
00:37:35.420 four i would also add to that protection of the community five but um in this ethics book they give these
00:37:42.180 four reasons and so if you are someone who says rehabilitation restoration is always should always be the
00:37:48.380 goal of the justice system then obviously you would see execution is wrong um if restitution paying back
00:37:54.240 the victim or the victim's family or society is always the goal of the justice system then you would see
00:37:59.340 execution is wrong if deterrence is the goal the prevention of future crimes by teaching the perpetrator
00:38:05.760 and other potential crimes that there are criminals that there are consequences to your actions then uh
00:38:13.520 then you would say if that's your goal that you would say the death penalty is ineffective because there's no proof
00:38:19.840 of their deterrence if deterrence is what you are saying you're trying to do in a justice system and
00:38:27.700 the death penalty does not accomplish uh doesn't accomplish deterrence you might point to the 1990s when
00:38:34.260 executions dropped off and the states with the death penalty had a higher murder rate than states that
00:38:39.920 didn't in canada they abolished the death penalty in the 70s and murder rates continued to decline
00:38:44.560 um the final purpose of a justice system one might say is retribution now the so-called criminal justice
00:38:52.720 reformers or criminal justice advocates um they typically say that this is not the purpose of a
00:38:58.560 justice system um retribution is punishment for something done that is wrong it doesn't necessarily
00:39:05.040 matter if it fits the other qualifications it's punishment um we see retributive justice throughout
00:39:12.540 scripture and god's execution of justice in the old and new testament and we even see that in the
00:39:18.080 eternal sense that he promises separation from wrath upon unrepentant unsaved sinners forever so god
00:39:25.500 roots retribution for murder in particular in his care for image bearers and in demonstration of the value
00:39:32.860 of the victim and if retribution is a purpose then the death penalty is absolutely uh according to the bible
00:39:42.220 justified at least in the case that god says is commanded because of the value of the human victim
00:39:48.300 which is murder most people actually like i said that criminal justice advocates don't think that
00:39:55.360 retribution should actually be a part of a justice system but most people even the most progressive
00:40:02.360 social justice advocates believe in retributive justice when they see fit everyone has this sense that
00:40:11.520 people who do wrong should be punished for their crimes people on the left have no problem with
00:40:16.720 retribution when it comes to for example a white police officer killing a black person for example
00:40:23.400 but for whatever reason in some other cases that go along a different narrative they're not okay with
00:40:29.700 retribution they would say retribution is bad it's vengeful it's unjust um and that would be a kind of
00:40:37.440 partiality and a kind of secular progressive social justice which actually doesn't align with any kind of
00:40:45.120 real justice so it's just not accurate to say retribution is unjust or wrong sometimes it is absolutely
00:40:53.480 called for uh we all know god knows that it's a necessary goal a necessary goal not the but a necessary
00:41:02.300 goal in some cases of a justice system and it should be distributed in a way that is truthful
00:41:08.400 proportionate direct and impartial rehabilitation and restitution may very well be options where
00:41:17.260 possible when for example it's well established that this person has turned from their ways and will
00:41:22.800 lead a better life and the crime they originally committed was not something like premeditated murder or
00:41:28.260 similarly a violent crime that violated uh an image bearer uh and i'm actually for these kinds of
00:41:38.000 people when they get out of jail to have all of their rights restored uh but rehabilitation and
00:41:44.320 restoration is not always possible and not always preferable punishment may need to be harsh based on
00:41:52.140 the crime and this person could put the community at risk if released depending on the kind of crime
00:41:57.980 that they committed and where they are in the process um in the process of rehabilitation or or
00:42:05.320 incarceration and the safety of innocent people must be prioritized over so-called restitution when
00:42:13.320 there is a risk there the death penalty may also be used as deterrence there has never been a study
00:42:20.980 that shows that the death penalty does not determine her just that it may not uh there has never been
00:42:27.760 a causal relationship that's been established between these two you could argue that the fact that the
00:42:33.780 death penalty is given unreliably and inconsistently in the u.s um that people aren't scared of it and
00:42:40.980 therefore it's not a deterrent or that they trust that social justice activism of the public is going
00:42:47.580 to help them avoid it but the question is the question that has to be that has to be asked is what
00:42:54.900 stops any of us from committing a crime there may be lots of reasons lots of different reasons but
00:43:01.080 it's impossible to know why someone who does not murder chose not to murder how could you ever know
00:43:06.760 why someone who was considering murdering someone decided not to was it the possibility of the death
00:43:13.460 penalty or was it the possibility of life in prison or was it something else the evidence of whether the
00:43:20.180 death penalty is an effective deterrent is inconclusive and therefore the argument that we
00:43:25.680 shouldn't have it based on the conclusion that it's definitely not a deterrent just isn't a good one in
00:43:31.440 the same way that you can't say that it definitely is now for those who say that there are disparities
00:43:40.140 between races and socioeconomic classes first i would say remember disparities by themselves
00:43:46.260 don't prove discrimination and injustice but i still believe that said i believe that it's worth
00:43:54.600 noting these disparities and reforming if it is found through evidence that bias is coming into play
00:44:01.360 to cause these disparities i am absolutely on board with reforms that make our justice system uniform for
00:44:08.460 all races for all classes for all people and for the standards to be as consistent and and as strict
00:44:14.780 as possible when it comes to proving guilt and issuing consequences especially the death penalty but
00:44:21.220 my position is simply that i see no argument that the death penalty for premeditated murder that is
00:44:27.580 proven with evidence in a fair trial with an impartial judge and jury beyond a reasonable doubt is immoral
00:44:36.040 or unbiblical in any way when you read about some of the heinous crimes committed by some of the people
00:44:42.460 who were executed federally this year it's really hard to see any other punishment except the death
00:44:48.760 penalty as just the woman who lured a pregnant mother and then killed her and cut her baby out the man
00:44:55.600 who murdered his toddler daughter whom he'd repeatedly horrifically abused over the short years of her
00:45:01.540 life and then killed her by slamming her head into the dashboard until she died after he had tortured
00:45:07.100 her in a variety of ways i mean this was a baby girl that this man ruthlessly murdered and the fact that
00:45:13.400 you had people not just saying that this man shouldn't receive the death penalty because the death penalty is
00:45:18.740 wrong but going so far as to actually try to make him seem like some sort of victim because of his race
00:45:24.760 that's what happens when you have a reprobate mind you have a heart of stone and a brain of mush and you
00:45:31.300 can't see things clearly i think we're obligated to be able to see things clearly i think the bible helps
00:45:36.480 us do that so i am willing to debate the death penalty on all kinds of grounds i really am like i said i feel
00:45:43.660 free to change my mind but i i cannot there is not any basis from what i can see that the government
00:45:54.540 cannot justly or biblically dole out the death penalty in some cases you have to be able to define
00:46:04.800 justice as god defines it which is we've talked about so many times is truthful proportional direct
00:46:11.160 and impartial if you can't define that if your justice is marred with secular social justice which is
00:46:17.840 partial and circumstantial if you don't even believe in an absolute right and wrong or objective truth
00:46:23.900 and i don't want to debate with you on this like if you're trying to come up with an argument from
00:46:28.280 the bible against the death penalty and you don't even believe in the authority or inerrancy of the
00:46:32.880 bible you don't even know how to read your bible systematically or how to apply the old testament and
00:46:37.620 wet it with the new testament then this conversation is interesting for me to have with you but for the
00:46:43.500 people who have all kinds of nuanced contentions with our death penalty and with our justice system in the
00:46:49.320 united states i think that that is a flourishing debate absolutely that we can have again i don't
00:46:55.700 believe that there is any biblical reason that we can exclude the possibility of the death penalty
00:47:00.120 for murder especially because of the reasons that god gives for the death penalty for murder
00:47:06.240 that predate the law that he gave to israel and also the responsibility that he gives the government
00:47:12.920 in the new testament i hope that i at least gave you some food for thought in helping you determine
00:47:19.080 what is the most biblical and just and logical position i know you know some of you are still
00:47:23.520 going to disagree with me and that's okay but you guys have been asking me for my thoughts and
00:47:27.900 research on this and so i tried to give you the most thorough response and explanation that i could
00:47:33.620 so thank you guys so much for listening or watching we will be back here soon
00:47:37.400 you