Hillel Neuer is the Executive Director of UN Watch, an organization that monitors the United Nation's Human Rights Council and seeks to hold the organization accountable to its own charter. In this episode, he talks about why the United Nations is not just an innocuous body that is trying to preserve human rights and peace throughout the world, but is actually rife with corruption that we need to know about.
00:12:00.200Well, that was also my question is, is there any kind of cohesive ideology that drives these kinds
00:12:08.000of decisions? Or is it just cynicism? Like, is it some is it some form of moral relativistic
00:12:17.080progressivism that says, you know, we don't feel like we can condemn these countries, it's cultural
00:12:23.840relativism, whatever, let's just be progressive and inclusive. Or is it really just about, you know,
00:12:30.180what you can bargain for and what you can get for the reputation of your own country?
00:12:36.920I think it's primarily cynical vote trading, because we've actually seen the vote trades
00:12:42.180documented in letters. I said we have a letter from Saudi Arabia to Russia, documenting the vote
00:12:46.740trade, and they'll sometimes announce it. But it's true, there is an ideology that you mentioned of
00:12:51.820cultural relativism. And I would say that when you speak about organizations that are not voting at
00:12:56.440the UN, but play a very significant role, groups like Amnesty International, which are rife with
00:13:01.320cultural relativism, they have a very hard time saying that you shouldn't vote for Russia, China,
00:13:07.560Cuba, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, they feel as kind of Western colonials, if they dare to say that you
00:13:14.920shouldn't vote for certain countries. So as opposed to, you know, saying that that countries like the US,
00:13:21.360Canada, France, which have problems, every country has human rights violations and problems. But
00:13:26.800obviously, you know, I believe in my organization, you would watch these very strongly with George
00:13:31.200Orwell said, that there's, there's a huge difference between half a loaf of bread, and no bread at all.
00:13:37.240And a country like Britain, France, Canada, that has blots on their system, and of course, they have
00:13:44.360blots on their system is completely different than a country where the blot is the system. And if you live
00:13:50.560in China, if you live in Cuba, if you live in Russia, the blot is the system. If you dare to speak out
00:13:56.120against one of these regimes, they'll throw you in prison, they'll kill you, they'll silence you,
00:14:00.440you'll be disappeared. And in the countries that I mentioned before, you can, you know, be elected
00:14:05.620to parliament and go on live national TV 24 hours a day condemning your government. They have, you know,
00:14:11.840all democracies have human rights violations. But systems that have checks and balances and have
00:14:16.520functioning free and liberal democracies have nothing in comparison with oppressive dictatorships.
00:14:23.900And the latter should not be sitting on the Human Rights Council. And by the way, this isn't just me
00:14:28.940making up this as a rule, the United Nations, when they created the Human Rights Council, they said
00:14:33.340there should be standard, they said members should shall, I'm going to quote, shall uphold the highest
00:14:38.920standards of protection and promotion of human rights. And in Article 8 of the founding document that
00:14:43.560created the Human Rights Council, Resolution 60 slash 251 says that countries that commit gross and
00:14:48.660systematic violations can be removed. So when you have the Dutch ambassador in Geneva giving an
00:14:54.000interview recently saying, oh, we need all countries there, she's going against actually what the United
00:14:59.060Nations itself decided. So there is an ideology, I would say groups like Amnesty International,
00:15:04.320and some diplomats have imbibed that ideology. But it's actually against what the founding
00:15:09.020resolution of the Human Rights Council says, which is that there should be membership criteria.
00:15:13.560So it's this very harmful, like intertwining of postmodernism and cynicism that I guess has
00:15:21.320made the UN what it is. And what I always find in this kind of postmodern, morally relativistic
00:15:28.040mentality is that there are contradictions. They say, you know, we need to bring everyone to the
00:15:32.940table. But they are willing to condemn some countries for what they see as human rights infractions,
00:15:39.220while they turn their eye from other countries like Israel, there seems to be just another level
00:15:45.940of criticism that we see often coming from the UN towards Israel. Why is that? And how does that kind
00:15:53.140of fit into this whole, oh, big tent, let's just tolerate everyone mentality?
00:15:57.580Yeah, I think you have identified an important point of hypocrisy and contradiction. Israel is the object of a pathological obsession at the United Nations. These are resolutions, I'll give you give you a few statistics. At the General Assembly, which is the World Parliament of the United Nations, every year, as we just had last year in 2020, there was one resolution on Iran, one on North Korea, one on Syria, one on Myanmar, and one on Myanmar. And I think that's the
00:16:27.580one on Myanmar, one on some other country, and 20 on Israel. I think last year, maybe there was 17 or 18 on Israel. And typically, there's 20 on Israel, 17, 20. And there's zero resolutions on China, Turkey, Pakistan, Venezuela, you know, Zimbabwe, you go down the list at the General Assembly, one on Iran, one on North Korea, 20 on Israel, 17 on Israel. At the Human Rights Council in Geneva, where I'm based, there is one agenda item for the whole world called Agenda Item 4.
00:16:57.580or human rights situations around the world, and one agenda item only for Israel, meaning one day for 193 countries, one day for Israel alone. There is not an agenda item for North Korea. There's not an agenda item for Syria, where millions have fled and maybe half a million have been killed. There's not an agenda item on Sudan, where there was genocide, only agenda item on Israel. Who's behind it? The Palestinians, together with the Arab League and the Islamic countries. Islamic countries are 56 countries at the UN, very influential.
00:17:25.780They're represented in Asia and Africa. They put forward the resolutions. But who votes for them? Well, actually, EU countries vote for 75% of them. And if you ask me, I think part of it is a kind of anti-Semitism.
00:17:40.400Yes, some of it is vote trading. Arab countries will say, historically, if you don't vote for us, we won't give you oil. We can threaten terrorism against you. We'll vote against you. But why do so many European countries willingly go along with the scapegoating of the world's only Jewish state?
00:17:56.160If you ask me, part of it has to do with certain archetypes, as today we might call memes, where in the Middle Ages, if you wanted to blame someone for problems in the world, if there was the plague in the Middle Ages, you scapegoated the Jews.
00:18:08.740The Jews poisoned the wells. And today, when you sit at the United Nations, and if you're at the Human Rights Council, at the General Assembly, at the Women's Rights Commission, at the World Health Organization, often the only country being condemned at the World Health Organization, at the Women's Rights Commission, is Israel for violating women's rights or violating health rights.
00:18:24.540It's so absurd and pathological, Ali, that it really seems like a scapegoating. The world gathers, they're silent on most of the world's worst abusers, and you pick up the Jew, and you scapegoat the Jew. That's what I see in many cases, both pragmatic, cynical vote trading, but also something that is not based on realpolitik, but seems to be based on ancient prejudices.
00:18:49.860And would you say that these kind of prejudices are also at times leveled against the United States, or no?
00:19:01.480Not in the way of anti-Semitism, but just the anti-United States kind of mentality that it seems like these kinds of bureaucratic bodies often have.
00:19:11.540Well, I think it ties into what you said before. You know, the United Nations is sometimes, we're speaking about the pathologies, is a toxic combination, mix of realpolitik, where worst dictatorships have a majority, and a post-colonial ideology that took over Europe in the 1960s,
00:19:36.740which became anti-Western, anti-capitalist, also anti-Israel, and anti-American. It's kind of all in the mix.
00:19:44.200And so there is an anti-Americanism that is very strong in Europe, and is very powerful.
00:19:48.560And I mentioned groups like Amnesty International. They don't vote, but they represent the ideology of the UN.
00:19:53.840Many of their people have worked at the UN, will be working at the UN, and that ideology is very powerful at the UN.
00:19:59.960And the Soviet Union was very clever, Ali, in fueling the anti-Western and anti-American alliance.
00:20:06.920They were behind this group called the Non-Aligned Movement, which actually was very aligned against America.
00:20:12.000And they tried to turn African and Asian countries against the United States.
00:20:16.140So there is definitely a very powerful anti-Americanism that ties in with anti-capitalism, anti-Westernism, blaming, accusing the West of being against the rest.
00:20:26.760It's a very strong ideology at the United Nations, and it goes together with dictatorships who want to single out America in various ways.
00:20:35.040And we're seeing that America is being accused of racism.
00:20:38.560When last year in America, you had the Black Lives Matter and George Floyd protests.
00:20:42.820The United Nations Human Rights Council held an emergency session in some of the most racist countries in the world, like Mauritania, which has slavery.
00:20:50.100According to The Guardian newspaper, according to CNN, it's one of the last bastions of real slavery.
00:20:54.400Hundreds of thousands of people in Mauritania were Black slaves, and they were accusing America of slavery.
00:21:00.760China, which has herded one million Uyghur Muslims into camps and is committing at least a cultural genocide against them, accuses America of racism.
00:21:09.420So there is something very cynical going on there.
00:21:12.040Has the United States done a good job at all of standing up against this or calling this out, trying to say, hey, we don't want to legitimize these kinds of not just hypocritical actions, but these kinds of hostile regimes?
00:21:28.500Or have we kind of just gone along to get along?
00:21:31.240Look, I think there's two approaches, and I'm not sure if either one was the best.
00:21:36.600The democratic approach, historically, has been to support the UN.
00:21:42.420The various democratic administrations have criticized the UN.
00:21:45.980They voted against anti-Israel resolutions and so forth.
00:21:48.800But there was a tendency in recent years under the Obama administration to support the Human Rights Council.
00:21:54.220America joined the Human Rights Council and said, you know, it's doing good things.
00:21:57.540And my concern is the Biden administration, as they intend to rejoin the Human Rights Council, we're not against engagement.
00:22:04.260We think U.S. leadership is very important.
00:22:05.780If you want to keep out the Chinas and the Russias who are trying to take over the UN, you need to be there.
00:22:11.100But you shouldn't necessarily be giving out false praise for the institutions.
00:22:14.740So I'd say the democratic approach was too inclined to maybe go along to get along.
00:22:20.860Not 100 percent, but definitely in that direction, the way the Europeans do it in a much more significant way.
00:22:25.600And then if you ask me, the Republican administrations, the problem was that sometimes they said, well, we're just going to walk out and we're not going to deal with it.
00:22:41.400So I think the Republicans need to be much more sophisticated about what's going on in the UN and how to push back, how to fight back.
00:22:47.700Do so cleverly, strategically, articulately.
00:22:50.560And the Democrats need to have more backbone in fighting back.
00:22:53.180So I think there is a happy middle that both administrations should be getting to because the United Nations is not going away.
00:22:59.400The Human Rights Council is not going away.
00:23:01.120They influence parts of hundreds of millions of people.
00:23:04.640And if you want to push back against China trying to subvert the meaning of human rights, we need to know how to do so cleverly and effectively.
00:23:17.400Well, there's different parts of the UN.
00:23:21.380I'd say the Security Council deals with war and peace and some conflict.
00:23:25.560Some wars have ended when the UN Security Council passes the resolution, which, if it does so under Chapter 7 of the UN Charter, is considered binding under international law.
00:23:34.740The General Assembly, the World Parliament, in theory, not binding.
00:23:38.560But in reality, they control a budget of billions of dollars.
00:23:42.000The U.S. pays for a large part of it and has enormous influence around the world.
00:23:46.000When a UN Secretary General announces something, makes a statement, that goes around the world.
00:23:50.820People regard that as a credible and legitimate statement.
00:23:55.580When the General Assembly adopts a resolution, the world will regard that as a credible statement.
00:24:00.680So the UN doesn't really have boots on the ground, but, you know, Stalin famously, apocryphally, someone said to him, well, the Pope said something.
00:24:12.320And Stalin said, oh, well, how many divisions does the Pope have, right?
00:24:18.740Well, in the end, the Pope remained and the Soviet Union, that evil regime, disappeared in, you know, around 1990.
00:24:26.500And the Pope and the Vatican remained.
00:24:28.680Sometimes having legitimacy and influence and credibility can be more significant than having all the tanks in the world.
00:24:35.940The Soviet Union had thousands and thousands of tanks and nuclear warheads and it disappeared.
00:24:40.280So moral power or the appearance of moral legitimacy is very significant.
00:24:44.160The United Nations has incredible legitimacy around the world.
00:24:49.100And so the Human Rights Council, the reason that Russia, Cuba, China, Venezuela struggled very hard, and Venezuela actually had to fight against Costa Rica, which was a late candidate, then they beat them.
00:24:59.880The reason they invest so many resources, Ali, is because it's moral power, perceived moral power, international legitimacy is very significant on the world stage.
00:25:09.560So I would say that UN decisions can't change everything in the world.
00:25:13.500And if you want to stop a genocide, you need the US Marines to do it.
00:25:17.840But UN statements, UN resolutions, UN reports, UN commissions of inquiry that get sent to the International Criminal Court can be very influential and can change the way people think.
00:25:28.060And thought is thought and word, would you say that China and the legitimization of China through the UN, even through the WHO, would you say that that is our biggest threat, the biggest threat to the Western world, the domination that China seeks, especially through these kinds of organizations?
00:25:52.300I think the UN is becoming an arena for superpower conflict.
00:25:58.940China has identified the United Nations as a very important arena.
00:26:02.740They're now heading agencies in Montreal, the UN's ICAO, the Civil Aviation Agency, headed by a Chinese representative in Geneva, the Telecommunications Union, which governs things like frequencies, internet, cell phones.
00:26:19.000There's a Chinese representative heading that.
00:26:20.680You can be sure he gets his orders from Beijing.
00:26:23.440The Food and Agriculture Organization in Rome, another agency in Vienna.
00:26:29.060They are now members of the Human Rights Council.
00:26:31.000They're on the five-member group that I revealed in April, the consultative group that names 17 international human rights investigators of the Human Rights Council, the expert on disappearances when someone magically, forcibly disappears, or the expert on arbitrary detentions, things that China is committing is the greatest perpetrator of.
00:26:49.320China is now naming the individuals who will be the investigators.
00:26:51.900So China is methodically, systematically, strategically taking over large parts of the United Nations.
00:27:00.020You mentioned the World Health Organization.
00:27:02.260You know, China, Ali, I'll be honest with you, I didn't realize it as much, but there was a Hong Kong, a woman from Hong Kong, Margaret Chan, who headed the World Health Organization for a decade up until 2017.
00:27:18.200I didn't realize, but she's actually controlled by China.
00:27:20.640If you look back at her candidacy more than a decade ago, China was her sponsor.
00:27:25.260When she finished being 10 years as head of the World Health Organization, she was put on the Chinese Politburo, on a leading Chinese government body, as a reward for what she did, which was helping China.
00:27:37.660The World Health Organization has two goodwill ambassadors.
00:27:41.320One of them is the wife of the Chinese dictator, Xi Jinping.
00:27:44.220The other one is a guy named James Chow, who's a presenter on Chinese television.
00:27:48.460He's a full-time paid propagandist of Chinese TV, and he's a World Health Organization goodwill ambassador.
00:27:54.880China is subverting these UN institutions like the World Health Organization.
00:27:58.860The reason that Dr. Tedros was so hesitant to say anything about China when the coronavirus began out of Wuhan was because China was behind his candidacy as well.
00:28:08.260So if we want to push back, we need to be there and to do so cleverly and effectively.
00:28:14.320And I hope the U.S. and other countries work in concert to push back against the Chinese communist regime.
00:28:20.200They're trying to take over everything.
00:28:21.600The level of corruption and depravity and these kinds of organizations, I think, makes a lot of people just feel completely helpless and desperate.
00:28:34.060Like, there is no hope for the future because how can we, you know, just average people push back against this kind of stuff except for just talk about it?
00:28:44.400Like, what's your recommendation or what's your encouragement if you have any to people who say, OK, like, I stand against this stuff.
00:28:52.640I want transparency. I want integrity.
00:28:54.640I want the UN to at least somewhat be an organization that we can trust and we can look to.
00:29:01.000What do I do? How do I push back against all this?
00:29:04.400Yeah, Ali, I think there is reason for pessimism, I'm afraid, because sadly, I've been at this in this business for for some time now.
00:29:13.940And the United States isn't what it used to be.
00:29:15.640You know, United States used to be the number one superpower.
00:29:18.240And today it's far weaker economically, politically and otherwise.
00:29:23.440So the ability of the U.S. to shape the U.N., which was the case in the 1950s, the U.S. really could shape the U.N.
00:29:29.940And that's changed a lot. However, the U.S. is still very important, still paying for a large part of the U.N. budget.
00:29:36.060At least 22 percent of the U.N. budget is paid for by the United States.
00:29:40.360And they pay for much more involuntary contributions.
00:29:45.120And I think your viewers who are primarily in the United States have a responsibility to make sure the United Nations does not subvert the principles of human rights and international peace and security that we all believe in and we'd like to see the U.N. live up to.
00:29:58.040And what they need to do is first, regular folks need to know what's happening at the U.N.
00:30:11.460You will get once a week, get updates on terrible things that are happening, things that you need to know about.
00:30:16.080And when you have the information, you're empowered.
00:30:19.240Citizens should write to their congressperson, write to their senator, write to secretary of state and say,
00:30:25.160I just heard that the that China is running to be on the Human Rights Council.
00:30:30.020Is the U.S. going to fight back and push them off?
00:30:32.600I heard that James Chow is still at the World Health Organization as a goodwill ambassador.
00:30:37.720And if the Biden administration rejoined the World Health Organization to engage well and good, but use the engagement, demand that WHO fire James Chow,
00:30:47.240who's an out-and-out Chinese propagandist, using this WHO title to legitimize his lies about the coronavirus.
00:30:55.300So I think citizens can push the U.S. government, Republicans or Democrats, push the administration to demand accountability, transparency at the U.N.
00:31:06.780And I've seen it happen when the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., when congresspersons, when senators demand action from the U.N., I've seen changes and reforms by U.N. bodies.
00:31:18.560So, frankly, it's only going to come from the U.S. That's where it's going to begin.
00:31:23.300And your viewers should be the first ones to get the information and to demand action and reform from the U.N.
00:31:30.980Yes, absolutely. And how can they support you? How can they support U.N. Watch?
00:31:36.960I know that you gave the organization's website, which we will put in the description of this episode, but can they follow you?
00:31:44.800Is there any monetary support that they can give?
00:31:48.400Sure. Thanks, Allie, for a very important question.
00:31:50.840Folks who want to help the work that we're doing, which is to make the United Nations live up to the original founding principles of its charter,
00:31:57.920which are about upholding real human rights, fighting genocidal dictators, making sure that they don't corrupt U.N. bodies,
00:32:05.060they can follow us. I mentioned www.unwatch.org and sign up there.
00:32:10.620They can follow us on Twitter, U.N. Watch on Twitter.
00:32:14.080My name, Hillel Neuer on Twitter can follow us.
00:32:33.580They can go on our website, www.unwatch.org, and make a donation and make sure that we continue our important work to support real human rights victims.
00:32:41.960One of the things that we do at U.N. Watch is we bring human rights victims from China, Cuba, Russia, Venezuela, Pakistan, Iran,
00:32:48.580to testify at the U.N. so that actually the voiceless who are being shut out by the U.N. bodies,
00:32:54.420as they're electing their oppressors and dictators, we bring the victims and those who've just come out of prison,
00:32:59.700political prisoners, amazing, courageous people, we bring them to testify to the United Nations.
00:33:04.340And folks who support us will be supporting not just U.N. reform and U.N. accountability,
00:33:09.600but we'll be supporting real human rights work to help the real victims.
00:33:13.400Thank you so much, Mr. Neuer, not just for coming on this show, which I am appreciative of,
00:33:18.680but also for all the work that you do and that U.N. Watch does.
00:33:21.860I know people learned a lot from this conversation, so thank you so much.