Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 445 ｜ Canada's 'Free' Health Care Is a Myth ｜ Guest： Lauren Chen

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:11.560 Hope everyone is having a great day.

00:00:13.480 Today I am talking to Lauren Chen.

00:00:15.980 We're going to be talking about all sorts of things, her experience with universal healthcare

00:00:20.700 in Canada and a lot of the challenges that she and her family have faced, the misconceptions

00:00:25.420 that people have about our healthcare system in America versus the healthcare systems

00:00:30.380 in, say, the UK or Canada.

00:00:32.920 We're also going to be talking about the body positivity movement, what is great about that

00:00:38.940 and also what is unhealthy and toxic about that.

00:00:42.340 And we'll be talking a little bit about gender stereotypes and just this idea of overcorrection

00:00:49.160 of society's problems through progressivism and the dangers of that and how we really

00:00:54.920 need to keep a balanced approach to the most controversial and difficult issues.

00:00:59.380 So I'm so excited for you to listen to this insightful conversation.

00:01:03.060 She's always got a whole lot of wisdom.

00:01:05.480 So without further ado, here is Lauren Chen.

00:01:13.600 Lauren, thank you so much for joining me.

00:01:16.020 I want to talk to you about a bunch of things today.

00:01:19.300 First, I want to get an update.

00:01:20.660 We're recording this in January.

00:01:22.060 This probably won't come out for a couple months, but as we're talking right now, can

00:01:25.820 you give us an update about your dad and kind of what's been happening with the healthcare

00:01:31.760 process and the healthcare system? 0.75

00:01:33.460 I know a lot of people in this audience have been praying for you and hoping the best for

00:01:38.380 your family.

00:01:38.920 So if you could just give us an update on all that.

00:01:43.280 Sure.

00:01:43.520 Well, first off, thank you so much for having me.

00:01:45.500 And thank you so much for discussing my dad's challenges on your show.

00:01:49.260 Because I know when we were fundraising, there were a lot of people who did come over and

00:01:52.940 donate and offer their support and prayers who heard about it from you.

00:01:56.480 And I just, it means the world.

00:01:57.820 It really does.

00:01:58.620 So thankfully, my dad was able to get his operation.

00:02:01.960 I think it ended up being in October.

00:02:03.900 And so they removed this shockingly large and scary looking tumor.

00:02:07.760 My mom did send me a picture of it.

00:02:09.240 And I'm like, why?

00:02:09.980 And then I shared it.

00:02:10.860 So I guess I'm going to say, I think.

00:02:12.100 I think I remember seeing it.

00:02:14.980 Yeah, I did.

00:02:16.220 So it was very scary.

00:02:17.420 We were really, really happy to just get that out of him.

00:02:20.420 And so now what, you know, we're going through what so many people are going through with their

00:02:24.180 cancer treatments is the screening process.

00:02:26.180 So my dad is supposed to be getting every three months, I guess, blood tests and different

00:02:30.780 scans just to make sure the cancer in his liver doesn't come back.

00:02:33.880 And apparently, you know, the more negative results we get, the less chance there is of

00:02:38.400 it recurring.

00:02:38.900 And OK, we've really been keeping our fingers crossed for that.

00:02:41.980 The problem we have is that now we are back in Canada and, you know, similar problem to

00:02:46.640 why we went to the U.S. in the first place for treatment is trying to get that care in

00:02:51.260 a timely manner.

00:02:52.800 Yeah.

00:02:53.080 You know what?

00:02:54.220 A lot of Americans, I think, maybe don't know about Canada is that the health care system

00:02:58.100 is actually provincial.

00:02:59.340 So, you know, I see Americans say we need federal health care mandates like they have in Canada.

00:03:04.720 It's like, I don't think you know how Canada works, if that's what you think.

00:03:08.120 But anyway, unfortunately, the province I'm in, Quebec, is notorious for long wait times.

00:03:14.140 And actually, COVID has not made things any better.

00:03:17.380 It's just increased the wait times for everything.

00:03:20.140 So, yeah, I mean, we've been trying to get his follow up treatment for three months.

00:03:24.780 And as of yet, we do not have an appointment.

00:03:26.640 And it's really frustrating.

00:03:27.860 And it's actually so bad that my parents right now are looking into ways to relocate to the

00:03:32.640 U.S. because, I mean, it's it's just a nightmare.

00:03:36.000 And actually, in Quebec, there are no private hospitals either.

00:03:38.380 That was ruled too unfair by the government.

00:03:41.140 So it's not even like you have the option of paying more.

00:03:43.900 Right.

00:03:44.440 Because like in the U.K., most people, it's almost the same thing.

00:03:48.840 But I think there are also private hospitals and private health care centers in the U.K.

00:03:53.780 that people can go to.

00:03:54.960 But in your area, there's not even an option.

00:03:58.340 Right.

00:03:58.520 There's not.

00:03:59.040 And it's frustrating because Hong Kong, where I've also lived, it's more of like a mixed 1.00

00:04:02.800 system where if you're a citizen, you do have like, I guess there's the universal health

00:04:07.660 care option.

00:04:08.280 But they're trying to encourage more and more people to be supplemented by private health

00:04:12.460 insurance, go to private hospitals and things like that.

00:04:15.680 That is not what's going on in Quebec, which is frustrating.

00:04:18.200 And actually, myself, I actually had a biopsy done of a skin growth that was on my scalp.

00:04:24.600 And I'm sure it's fine.

00:04:25.820 And I'm sure by the time people are seeing this, I'll know the answers.

00:04:29.020 But it was about a year long wait to see a dermatologist.

00:04:32.440 Wow.

00:04:32.780 And then once he saw me, he was like, all right, come back in four months and we'll see

00:04:36.860 if it's grown.

00:04:37.720 It had.

00:04:38.620 And then I had to wait another two months to actually get the biopsy done.

00:04:41.660 Oh, and I'm in a position right now where I'm waiting for my results.

00:04:45.360 They were supposed to come in after six weeks.

00:04:47.480 It's been eight weeks and we still don't have my results yet.

00:04:51.140 And so, yeah, it's just been a lot of and I'm sure there are so many Canadians who have

00:04:55.640 similar horror stories.

00:04:56.620 When I started talking about my dad, so many other people came forward with their challenges.

00:05:01.140 And, you know, I'm sure there are people who it's worked great for.

00:05:03.820 But I think more people, you know, with the Biden administration coming in, there's going

00:05:07.020 to be probably health care changes looming.

00:05:09.460 I think these are stories that Americans deserve to know because it's not all rosy, you know, doctors

00:05:15.060 falling out of trees and health care for everybody, as people like Bernie Sanders sometimes

00:05:19.280 make it seem right.

00:05:20.700 So backing up just for people who don't know, with your dad, he was diagnosed with cancer

00:05:25.840 and then you had to wait a very long time to even have any kind of follow up, correct?

00:05:30.580 And he had to come to the United States for the procedure that ended up saving him.

00:05:36.060 Is that correct?

00:05:38.000 That is correct.

00:05:38.740 And it was it was a very scary time because it was a situation where he got a scan done,

00:05:43.740 just what we thought out of a abundance of caution.

00:05:47.600 And he didn't actually have someone look at the scan and give him a diagnosis until around,

00:05:52.420 what is it, five months later.

00:05:54.320 So a scan captured the fact that he had cancer, but he wasn't able to see a specialist to look

00:05:59.700 at the results until five months later.

00:06:02.320 And then, you know, we were trying to get a really quick operation date and we just we

00:06:07.920 never ended up getting one.

00:06:09.080 And we were calling hospitals.

00:06:10.400 We weren't getting called back.

00:06:11.420 It was just a nightmare.

00:06:12.220 I've never experienced anything like it.

00:06:15.420 You just feel so helpless, I'm sure.

00:06:18.020 Oh, I was I was literally in tears.

00:06:19.860 I mean, I ended up going to social media saying like, I don't we don't know what to do.

00:06:24.040 We know he has cancer.

00:06:25.420 We know it's been growing for, you know, months and months at this time.

00:06:29.040 And it's not that it's not the kind of thing where you're like, oh, it's OK.

00:06:31.840 I'll just wait.

00:06:33.000 See how it turns out.

00:06:34.240 No, absolutely not.

00:06:36.380 Right.

00:06:36.740 And so by posting a message on social media, which I'm so glad you did,

00:06:42.220 tell me about the response from people in the United States.

00:06:45.880 Was that how you ultimately got connected to the person who performed the procedure for

00:06:50.600 your dad?

00:06:52.180 Yeah.

00:06:52.500 So actually, I'm not sure if you're familiar with or your audience is.

00:06:55.780 I'm sure you are.

00:06:56.320 But your audience is familiar with Dave Rubin.

00:06:58.040 I know you've interviewed with Dave.

00:06:59.300 Yeah.

00:06:59.540 Great interview.

00:07:00.080 So he was actually kind enough to put me in touch with someone at the Mayo Clinic in

00:07:04.540 Arizona.

00:07:04.900 And they were just so competent, speedy.

00:07:08.520 I remember we we I put out that message.

00:07:10.880 And then by like the next day, we were doing a video conference call with the people at the

00:07:15.260 Mayo and they were saying, send us any results you have.

00:07:17.260 It was just amazing.

00:07:18.880 And I've been teasing my dad that he's been spoiled now with American health care,

00:07:23.620 expecting to see all of these doctors in a timely manner.

00:07:27.340 But it was really amazing.

00:07:28.700 And, you know, the response from Canadians was by and large.

00:07:31.840 Yes, I've been through this.

00:07:33.500 I've lost family members.

00:07:34.780 I'm still waiting to see such and such specialists.

00:07:37.080 You know, the Canadians in my audience, they understood what I was going through because

00:07:40.680 so many of them or their family members are in the same position.

00:07:43.660 This is not newsworthy in Canada.

00:07:45.860 Oh, you're waiting for a doctor.

00:07:47.280 So is everyone else.

00:07:48.600 And actually, it's so bad with even general practitioners.

00:07:51.220 You can wait like years to see a GP just because we have a shortage.

00:07:55.080 But, you know, what was interesting to me is the response I got from a lot of American

00:07:59.560 leftists was that, you know, I was being selfish, trying to jump the line to get my dad

00:08:05.420 care.

00:08:06.200 You see, this is what happens when I don't I don't think they understood.

00:08:10.740 They're trying to make it seem like universal health care was the answer to my problem.

00:08:14.000 It's like, I don't think you understand the situation.

00:08:16.140 Yeah, I mean, I was actually pretty taken aback.

00:08:19.980 How many people out there who are like, I guess, Medicare for all advocates were attacking

00:08:25.520 me, attacking my father just because I was sharing what we were going through trying to

00:08:30.600 get health care.

00:08:31.900 Right.

00:08:32.460 I mean, I guess when you are so attached to an idea that it's integral to your worldview

00:08:38.820 or your political perspective, you can't admit that maybe there's a problem with it and maybe

00:08:45.520 it's not effective.

00:08:47.300 Now, the pushback that I've sometimes seen is, OK, yes, it's really hard to get care for

00:08:55.140 something like cancer or, you know, something that needs a specialist.

00:09:00.980 But at least people don't have to pay out of pocket for, you know, just going to get

00:09:06.980 treatment for the flu.

00:09:08.320 Or some people say, well, at least I can get my diabetes treatment medication so much more

00:09:15.500 cheaply.

00:09:16.100 And Canada, people are dying here because they're not even able to kind of treat these

00:09:22.500 more, you know, chronic diseases or more mild sicknesses.

00:09:28.700 What do you what do you say to that if you if you know a response?

00:09:33.720 Sure.

00:09:34.240 Well, the first thing I like to bring up when it comes to the health care debate in the U.S.

00:09:37.800 is that a lot of people who are on the left like to paint it as, well, the current health

00:09:41.680 care system is what Republicans and people who are pro-capitalism favor and have put

00:09:46.200 in place.

00:09:46.680 And it's their fault.

00:09:47.700 That is absolutely not true.

00:09:49.680 I don't know anyone on any side of the political spectrum who is completely happy with the American

00:09:53.600 health care system right now.

00:09:54.760 And I think Democrats have done a really good job trying to convince people that the Obamacare

00:10:00.260 system, which is in place in the United States now, is somehow the Republicans' fault, which

00:10:03.980 is not true in any way, shape or form.

00:10:07.460 You know, people on the right also don't like what is happening with American health care.

00:10:11.680 And they want to want to implement changes to make sure that people are able to get affordable

00:10:16.280 health care.

00:10:17.380 And, you know, as well as prescription drugs.

00:10:19.020 And President Trump, he's actually I commend him for trying to tackle the issue of very

00:10:24.020 high drug prices, because right now what's happening with pharmaceutical companies is

00:10:28.340 that Americans are essentially footing the bill for all of these these advancements and 0.68

00:10:32.440 all this new medication that is then sold other places like Canada more cheaply.

00:10:36.720 So that's a really a systemic issue that I hope gets solved.

00:10:40.920 But it's not just a question of, oh, well, if Americans just paid less, then it would

00:10:44.820 be cheap new drugs for all.

00:10:46.820 No, because there needs to be that profit incentive.

00:10:49.740 Right.

00:10:49.880 And I have seen people kind of advocate for the idea of when it does come to drug companies,

00:10:54.520 kind of mandatory licensing fees for generics, where it's that if you if you're a drug company

00:11:00.900 and you come up with this new drug that is lifesaving, you won't have the ability to say, no, you can't

00:11:07.040 rip it off generically.

00:11:07.860 You have to grant them that license, but they need to pay royalty.

00:11:10.780 So that could be, you know, something along those lines could be a way to make sure that

00:11:15.860 research is still happening, but that it's affordable for everybody.

00:11:19.660 And again, I'm not a doctor in the medical profession, but I think it's an interesting concept.

00:11:24.540 And then when it comes to, I guess, more general illnesses that maybe aren't so time sensitive,

00:11:29.900 if you're talking about the flu, I know so many Canadians who will not go to the doctor

00:11:34.280 or the flu because they know it's going to be around a four hour wait time in a waiting

00:11:37.800 room to go see one.

00:11:39.480 If you go to like a walk in clinic, that's that's very, very usual.

00:11:43.100 It's the same if you go to the emergency room and there's any type of triage, you will

00:11:46.280 be waiting unless it's like very, very, very serious.

00:11:48.960 And if you have a GP who you want to see, depending on the GP, it could be months and months for

00:11:54.460 your appointment where you're probably going to get better.

00:11:56.780 So that's one thing.

00:11:57.860 And the idea that, oh, well, at least it's not out of pocket costs.

00:12:00.680 What Americans don't understand is exactly how much taxes Canadians pay where I live.

00:12:06.100 Depending on your bracket, you could be paying the majority of your salary to taxes between

00:12:11.440 the federal and provincial rates.

00:12:13.440 And, you know, a lot of people like to make it out as if Canada is cheaper to live in because,

00:12:17.620 oh, we have socialized medicine and kind of socialized higher education college.

00:12:21.740 The average Canadian has more, I guess, household debt than the average American.

00:12:26.780 So Canadians have a lot more financial burden on them than the average person in the United

00:12:32.060 States.

00:12:32.820 And, you know, it's just due to the fact that, yeah, the government taking these costs out

00:12:38.060 of your paycheck at the end of every month, even the months you don't require health care

00:12:42.520 or even if you don't go to college, that doesn't make things cheaper.

00:12:45.940 Yeah, absolutely not.

00:12:47.240 And you're I mean, you're paying a lot and you're not paying for good quality care for

00:12:52.080 the vast majority of people.

00:12:53.440 Like you said, I'm sure there are anecdotes from people who said, oh, it was great.

00:12:56.980 I had to get this knee surgery and I wasn't charged anything in the United States.

00:13:01.320 You know, I wouldn't have been able to I wouldn't have been able to have that procedure,

00:13:05.760 certainly not for free.

00:13:07.760 They don't consider the downsides to it.

00:13:09.840 But something I always think about that Thomas Sowell says is that leftists typically judge

00:13:16.200 policies or policy proposals by their stated intentions, never by their results.

00:13:21.540 And so they create kind of this false binary.

00:13:23.700 Oh, you want people to die who don't get health care and you want health care to be expensive

00:13:27.980 and drug prices to be basically unpayable by poor people in the United States.

00:13:33.920 That's what you want.

00:13:34.860 You just want to have your own private health care and for everyone else to suffer.

00:13:38.000 I want universal health care and everyone to be paid for and everyone to be happy.

00:13:42.040 Like you were explaining, that's a false binary. 0.54

00:13:44.320 There could be some reforms to be made in American health care.

00:13:48.320 But by and large, I mean, this is the place that people go for innovative and quick and

00:13:53.680 compassionate and focused care.

00:13:56.080 And people just need to realize that that profit incentive for health care. 0.60

00:14:01.600 And I know that leftists don't even like those two words put together.

00:14:05.300 It matters.

00:14:06.160 It is what drives quality care in the United States.

00:14:10.440 It's why we are the place that people go when they have situations like you and your dad.

00:14:15.980 And I just unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people realize that or think about the

00:14:20.020 consequences.

00:14:21.640 No, they absolutely don't.

00:14:23.240 And it's the idea of something happening to the American system to make it more like the 0.62

00:14:27.120 Canadian system, I think should terrify everybody. 0.98

00:14:29.960 Because if you if you are in a situation like my dad was in, exactly where do you go then?

00:14:34.860 Where is the fast, speedy option that you can rely on?

00:14:38.540 It just it ceases to exist.

00:14:40.780 And, you know, you you you say profit incentive.

00:14:43.520 And I think that's a very important conversation to have.

00:14:45.520 And it's like the left can act as if, you know, just from the goodness of their hearts,

00:14:49.560 these doctors and nurses should be providing care.

00:14:52.260 But that's not how people function.

00:14:55.340 Nurses and doctors deserve to be able to choose where they work and earn a comfortable living 1.00

00:15:01.120 themselves.

00:15:01.560 And unfortunately for Canadians, that is what drives a lot of our health care professionals

00:15:06.540 to the United States, because they can you know, they can make more money.

00:15:10.280 They can have better hours working, you know, nicer hospitals and everything.

00:15:13.900 And it's like, not only do we have the shortage of like equipment because it's expensive here,

00:15:18.640 there's also just the shortage of health care personnel.

00:15:20.880 This is these are all very real problems.

00:15:23.000 I know the NHS, the British system experiences similar ones, really.

00:15:27.740 I mean, it's all over the world that we have this this health care debate going on with

00:15:32.360 countries who have implemented universal systems.

00:15:34.500 And I don't know why, you know, in the American context, when these leftists bring up the idea,

00:15:39.480 hey, we should do this here, they act as if it's perfect everywhere else in the world when

00:15:43.080 it's not.

00:15:43.900 The profit margin for Medicare is already razor thin.

00:15:58.500 That is why patients on private health care tend to pay more to make up for when you're

00:16:05.540 looking at the profits of a hospital to make up for sometimes the profit losses or the razor

00:16:10.040 thin margin of profits when it comes to the Medicare patients.

00:16:13.480 If everyone is on Medicaid, if everyone is on Medicare, the profit margin gets so small

00:16:20.660 that especially in rural hospitals that may not have as many patients, I mean, you're going

00:16:26.440 to have to either shut down the hospital or dramatically cut your workforce.

00:16:31.540 And then you don't have more or better health care that way.

00:16:34.080 That's what people don't understand is that without profit, there's not going to be as many people

00:16:39.880 working in the hospitals.

00:16:40.800 You're not going to have that incentive for innovation when it comes to medicine, when

00:16:44.600 it comes to treatment.

00:16:45.420 If you think that nurses and doctors are worn out now, which I think everyone has probably

00:16:49.600 been to a hospital and, you know, talks to that nurse who is on her 36th hour of her shift

00:16:55.380 or that doctor who is tired, if you see that going on now, multiply that by 10 under a Medicare

00:17:02.440 for all system.

00:17:03.700 That's just naturally what's going to happen, whether we like it or not.

00:17:08.940 Absolutely.

00:17:09.640 And I think what should scare people is the prospect, really, of not being in charge of

00:17:14.220 your own health care treatments.

00:17:16.480 And something else that is very scary when it comes to these universal systems is the

00:17:21.980 issue of rationing care, which absolutely does happen.

00:17:25.120 I know when it comes to things like glaucoma treatments, you know, or cataract even, they

00:17:30.020 do make a judgment call, depending on your age, whether or not it's worth it for the state

00:17:34.440 to invest in that surgery for you.

00:17:36.460 Yeah.

00:17:36.840 Which is terrifying.

00:17:38.520 It is terrifying.

00:17:39.360 And some people might say, you know, there's already rationing here with COVID.

00:17:42.820 Well, yes, maybe in some places, but that's a little bit different to have a full ICU unit

00:17:50.760 and you have to decide who gets a ventilator.

00:17:52.880 That is obviously very frightening and terrible.

00:17:55.620 And we don't want that to happen.

00:17:57.400 But those kind of emergency and very rare situations is different than deciding who gets

00:18:02.000 glaucoma treatment or who gets cancer treatment.

00:18:04.740 That thankfully doesn't happen in the United States based on, okay, how many resources do

00:18:10.820 we have to allocate and who is worth it and who's not?

00:18:14.120 Exactly.

00:18:14.640 You don't want some bureaucrat, some administration official making the judgment call.

00:18:19.520 Okay, well, we could spend these resources to save this person's life.

00:18:22.300 But you know what?

00:18:22.780 They're already 67 and they're probably not going to be paying into the system anymore.

00:18:26.200 In fact, they're just collecting a pension.

00:18:27.580 So do we take these resources and spend them on this person or this other person who is,

00:18:31.360 hey, maybe only 30 and has a lot more to give back to the system?

00:18:34.480 These are conversations that I don't think are moral to be having.

00:18:39.340 And, you know, the left can claim the high ground when it comes to these types of health

00:18:42.400 care systems.

00:18:43.220 But I just, I'm sorry, as someone who's actually been through it and almost lost a family member

00:18:47.320 to it, I don't see this as the more compassionate answer.

00:18:50.700 Yeah.

00:18:51.020 And you also worry, it's not just dollar signs that these bureaucrats making these decisions

00:18:55.300 are looking at.

00:18:57.240 But you also worry, especially in the United States, where does someone's politics, where

00:19:02.680 do they come in?

00:19:03.580 And you've already kind of seen leftists on Twitter, blue checkmark saying, you know, if

00:19:07.540 someone was anti-mask or something, or if someone was a Republican who decided that we

00:19:13.920 should open up, they shouldn't get medical treatment.

00:19:16.820 You worry about that, too.

00:19:18.200 Are people's political affiliations going to play into whether or not they're seen as valuable

00:19:24.200 or worth saving by the people in these universal health care systems that are deciding who gets

00:19:29.240 treatment and who doesn't?

00:19:31.120 What else is the decision maker?

00:19:32.700 Is intersectionality and critical race theory going to play into those decisions of who gets

00:19:38.540 to live and who gets to die?

00:19:40.240 I mean, it's really frightening, especially when you think about all of the identity politics

00:19:45.240 and the polarization that goes on in the United States when you're talking about who gets medical

00:19:50.300 treatment based on those standards.

00:19:52.940 I mean, that's scary.

00:19:54.700 That's something that people need to think about before saying, yes, universal health

00:19:57.800 care is compassionate.

00:19:59.880 Oh, absolutely.

00:20:00.580 And this is actually something we've seen before in the UK.

00:20:03.460 A lot of hospitals or even just anywhere where you get service, they'll have signs that say

00:20:07.340 no violence, no service and things like that.

00:20:09.680 But in the UK, we've actually seen like the definition of violence be expanded to include

00:20:14.520 things like homophobia or Islamophobia or things like that.

00:20:18.420 So in the UK, it actually is the case, you know, it's probably not going to be exercised

00:20:21.860 if it's an actual life threatening condition.

00:20:23.760 But if let's say you have a sprained ankle or broken arm or something, and for some reason

00:20:28.600 the doctor perceives you as being some sort of bigot, whatever it may be, they will actually

00:20:35.560 have the right to deny you care.

00:20:37.020 But in a sacred system, you don't necessarily have the option of going other places.

00:20:41.300 So this is happening.

00:20:42.660 This is something that needs to be talked about.

00:20:44.440 And I hope that people, especially in Canada or people who have lived abroad and have experiences

00:20:49.780 with these systems, that they kind of speak up.

00:20:52.940 Because unfortunately, you know, we do hear a lot about people who can't afford treatment

00:20:56.860 in the US.

00:20:57.400 And I think there needs to be reforms to ensure that care is affordable and timely and et

00:21:03.640 cetera, et cetera.

00:21:04.380 American health care is not perfect, of course.

00:21:06.500 But the people who've had these experiences outside the US, we need to be equally vocal because

00:21:11.340 right now there's this imbalance in the media, making it seem as if in the United States,

00:21:15.720 people are dying on the side of the road, whereas, you know, everywhere else, it's just

00:21:19.620 you walk into a clinic, get as much health care as you want.

00:21:22.380 And look, once you get there, once you get to universal health care, there's no going

00:21:26.060 backward.

00:21:26.600 I mean, Republicans have been in charge of Congress and the White House in the United

00:21:31.020 States since Obamacare was passed, not the entire time.

00:21:34.800 But since Obamacare was passed, they've had the opportunity to, quote, repeal and replace.

00:21:38.780 They've been running on repealing and replacing or just repealing Obamacare for for years.

00:21:44.800 And it hasn't happened.

00:21:45.980 And you could say that's either because of the ineffectiveness of the Republican Party

00:21:50.480 in the United States, or you could just realize that what Ronald Reagan says is true, that

00:21:55.420 a government program is as close to eternal life as you get to experience on Earth.

00:21:59.760 Like it just doesn't end.

00:22:01.860 And so just realize, just like with every collectivist program or collectivist regime, once you get

00:22:09.440 there, there's no going backwards.

00:22:12.340 And so you have to be vigilant.

00:22:13.940 And I always just tell people, a lot of people really want to check out with politics right

00:22:17.740 now.

00:22:18.240 You know, like I said, we're recording this in January.

00:22:19.960 People are like, OK, new administration, boring administration.

00:22:23.940 Don't need to pay attention to what's going on.

00:22:26.780 I just encourage people, don't look away.

00:22:28.800 Don't stop paying attention because these changes happen little by little.

00:22:33.040 And all of a sudden, you've surrendered your freedoms and you did it in the name of not

00:22:36.900 wanting to watch the news anymore or not wanting to pay attention to politics.

00:22:40.620 And I think your story reminds us of the urgency of us all paying attention while we still have

00:22:47.860 the freedom to do so.

00:22:50.340 For sure.

00:22:51.100 And I think ultimately, even if you don't care about politics, politics still cares about

00:22:54.960 you.

00:22:55.260 And these aren't people who are just happy to let you sit back and live your life.

00:22:59.180 These are policies that are going to affect you and your family every single day.

00:23:02.560 Yep.

00:23:02.880 And I always say, if you care about people, you care about politics because politicians

00:23:07.420 affect policies which affect people.

00:23:10.760 And so people who say, oh, you know, I just want to I just want to focus on Christ and I

00:23:16.000 want to disengage from politics.

00:23:18.560 Well, Christ tells us that we should care about people.

00:23:21.360 We should love our neighbor as ourself.

00:23:22.840 And politics is not the only vehicle, of course, through which we care about people.

00:23:27.300 But it is one way, especially the most vulnerable are affected by policies which are affected

00:23:33.420 by politicians.

00:23:34.160 So we do have to care about politics.

00:23:41.560 All right.

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00:25:13.600 Speaking about healthcare, we were just talking a couple minutes ago about how, you know, there

00:25:19.280 are some people saying, well, if you didn't wear a mask or if you were against wearing

00:25:23.860 masks at any point in the last few months, then you should be denied healthcare if you

00:25:28.680 get COVID and go to the hospital or whatever, ridiculous things like that.

00:25:32.200 But that doesn't seem to be applied that standard to other unhealthy behaviors that

00:25:38.380 people have that unfortunately cause diseases.

00:25:41.020 Like if someone smokes and they get lung cancer, of course, we still want them to be treated

00:25:45.380 for lung cancer.

00:25:46.560 If someone is obese because of an unhealthy lifestyle and they get heart disease or something

00:25:52.840 like that, then of course, we still want them to get treatment for that because that's

00:25:56.280 a compassionate thing to do.

00:25:57.540 They're human beings, but that standard isn't necessarily applied.

00:26:01.920 And even some of these unhealthy lifestyles are being glorified.

00:26:06.100 And you've talked about this before, how body positivity, while it can be a very good thing,

00:26:11.500 also leads us into toxic realms of glorifying unhealthy behavior that then ends up not just

00:26:20.100 burdening the system, the healthcare system like somewhere in Canada, but also just it just

00:26:26.620 encourages people to live in a way that is not healthy for them individually, right?

00:26:31.440 For sure.

00:26:32.140 And, you know, just to be clear, when it comes to body positivity, I absolutely think that

00:26:36.180 the way you look should not define your self-worth.

00:26:38.800 It's also very possible to be too skinny and that's not healthy either.

00:26:42.720 You know, there are parts of the body positivity movement that I think are worthwhile.

00:26:47.660 I totally agree.

00:26:48.680 But it's kind of morphed for a lot of these activists into what's been known as like the

00:26:54.320 fat acceptance movement.

00:26:55.780 And again, like being fat doesn't make you a bad person.

00:26:58.520 Absolutely.

00:26:58.920 And if, you know, if you want to live a certain lifestyle, that should be your choice.

00:27:03.680 But what bothers me is that there are these people and organizations out there who are

00:27:07.760 presenting the public with a false message that is that you can be obese and very overweight

00:27:13.820 and still be perfectly healthy, which is just not true.

00:27:17.520 You know, I like to compare it to smoking as you did.

00:27:20.060 There's a reason why cigarettes come with these big warning labels nowadays.

00:27:23.340 If someone wants to make the decision to smoke, knowing that it has health consequences, that

00:27:28.420 should be their decision.

00:27:29.740 Same with, you know, eating a lot of, let's say, processed or fatty foods.

00:27:33.740 If you really want to do that and you're all right with the possibility of weight gain or

00:27:37.640 some of the other health risks like heart disease, that still should be your choice.

00:27:42.740 But you should be informed of the consequences when you're doing and that that's what really

00:27:46.360 bothers me about this this whole fat acceptance thing.

00:27:49.260 It's not that I think fat people should be shamed.

00:27:51.700 Nothing like that.

00:27:52.560 But don't lie to people when it comes to decisions they're making about their health.

00:27:56.960 It's a very serious thing.

00:27:58.620 Yeah.

00:27:58.900 And I think the good parts about the body positivity movement that I like, like I remember when

00:28:04.000 I was little and or like when you're just starting to pay attention to like pop artists

00:28:10.300 or like TV, I was probably 10 or something like that.

00:28:13.420 So early 2000s.

00:28:14.600 And I remember the look then was to have like super narrow hips and to have, you know, a super 0.94

00:28:21.280 flat stomach and everyone wore like the really low rise jeans and you would wear the shirt

00:28:25.860 that was like right beneath your belly button. 0.93

00:28:28.240 And for some reason, like the bottom of your torso, like so disgusting.

00:28:32.400 And of course, I would have never been allowed to wear something like that anyway.

00:28:36.600 But I remember being like a preteen and wanting to dress like that and being like, well, my body

00:28:42.780 doesn't do that.

00:28:43.820 Like my torso is too short.

00:28:45.400 I have hips or whatever.

00:28:46.780 And I do think that having completely unrealistic standards for girls is unhealthy.

00:28:53.760 It is damaging.

00:28:54.680 And one thing I like is that we are showing that, hey, you don't have to be a perfect size

00:29:00.420 two or have narrow, you know, boy hips in order to be in order to be pretty or in order 1.00

00:29:07.120 to be accepted, that there is a range of healthiness and there is beauty in the different kind of

00:29:14.320 forms that it's not bad if you have cellulite.

00:29:17.480 There are different, there are different body types and there are different so-called imperfections

00:29:23.580 that are perfectly okay to show.

00:29:25.300 I think all of that is really healthy and really positive and something that should be encouraged.

00:29:30.720 I think exactly what you said when it goes to the point to where we're denying objective

00:29:35.040 truth that, okay, yes, you don't have to be a size two to be healthy.

00:29:38.860 That's absolutely true.

00:29:40.300 But also there is a range of health that we probably need to stay in, in order to be scientifically

00:29:47.640 grounded.

00:29:48.400 Like there are objectively consequences to being unhealthy with your lifestyle more than just

00:29:55.760 weight gain.

00:29:56.320 Like, I mean, there's diabetes and heart disease and things like that.

00:29:59.460 And so I worry that taking it too far, it's going to hurt a lot of people.

00:30:03.860 And I don't know, we've even seen a backlash.

00:30:06.320 People like Lizzo, she said she was going to go on a diet or some juice cleanse or something

00:30:10.060 like that.

00:30:10.620 And people like ripped her head off for even thinking about that.

00:30:14.360 Why do you think that people take it?

00:30:16.840 Why do you think people are so angry about it when people say, you know, actually it's,

00:30:21.160 I'm going to start, you know, losing weight or like Adele going on a diet or eating healthier?

00:30:27.040 Why do you think it's caused such, I don't know, an uproar?

00:30:30.280 Well, it, it really has.

00:30:33.320 And if your audience isn't familiar with it, yeah, you're right.

00:30:35.660 Lizzo, she did go on a juice cleanse. 1.00

00:30:38.140 I'm not familiar exactly with what that cleanse entailed, but she said that she was doing it

00:30:42.800 because she wanted to feel better.

00:30:43.900 And I think she may have ended up losing a little bit of weight, even though according 0.99

00:30:47.120 to her, that wasn't the main intention.

00:30:48.380 And it's true. 0.56

00:30:49.140 People can go on cleanse or detox journeys for any number of reasons.

00:30:53.400 But she was very, very viciously attacked and shamed for it.

00:30:57.020 And I think the reason why people, some of these people have this visceral reaction to

00:31:01.440 anything to do with weight loss or, you know, health is that, you know, in their minds,

00:31:05.540 if you're actually, you're, you're trying to lose weight or you think changing your,

00:31:09.560 your eating habits is a good thing.

00:31:11.040 That means that what they were like before was somehow less than perfectly desirable,

00:31:15.760 right?

00:31:16.540 If you want to lose weight, that means you're, you're saying being heavier, isn't good.

00:31:20.780 Or like this food isn't as perfectly nutritious as this other food.

00:31:24.440 So, you know, it kind of chips away at the message that they're trying to send people.

00:31:28.600 And this is another really toxic element of the fat acceptance movement is if it's gotten

00:31:33.960 to the point now where we're actually shaming people for trying to make healthier choices.

00:31:39.600 That, that's not okay.

00:31:41.300 Like, I think like so much of the, uh, I guess the 21st century, the name of the game here

00:31:46.620 is over correction, right?

00:31:48.620 We used to be shaming and bullying people and there are still people who get shamed and

00:31:53.060 bullied for being overweight now.

00:31:54.680 And that's not okay either, but it's also not okay to bully people for trying to make

00:31:59.080 healthier decisions.

00:32:00.340 And, you know, to your point about what it's like to kind of grow up as a teenage girl with

00:32:04.800 all of these, you know, models who look nothing like your average person is that I do appreciate

00:32:10.420 how people are also speaking up about Photoshop and the way that it's used to manipulate images

00:32:15.680 in the media, because for a lot of girls, it's like, it's not just that you don't look like 0.99

00:32:20.320 the model in the magazine.

00:32:21.360 It's that even the model in the magazine doesn't really look like the model in the magazine.

00:32:26.440 And, you know, so for fashion and makeup and things like that, they've actually taken things

00:32:31.000 to a point now where it's completely divorced from reality.

00:32:33.600 You don't see skin texture pores or any of the things you would see normally on a person.

00:32:38.120 And a lot of the times the things they're editing out, it's not, you know, that it makes

00:32:42.840 your skin healthy or unhealthy, it's perfectly natural.

00:32:45.420 It's perfectly natural to, like you said, have cellulite or stretch marks or, you know,

00:32:49.300 people struggle with acne.

00:32:50.980 You know, it's all right to want to address these issues without kind of going totally

00:32:55.760 overboard and saying, all right, or throwing any type of health standards out the window.

00:33:00.900 Yeah.

00:33:01.420 500 pounds, totally healthy.

00:33:02.680 Yeah.

00:33:12.840 You think about these poor teenagers, too, who are starting to get some kind of body dysmorphia

00:33:19.780 or like facial dysmorphia because of the filters that are on Instagram.

00:33:24.440 I don't have Snapchat, but I'm sure on Snapchat, I have no idea if TikTok has filters, but they,

00:33:30.140 you know, they totally change.

00:33:31.100 I mean, I've seen some of those and you like put them on as a joke and you're like, oh my

00:33:34.960 gosh, your lips are bigger.

00:33:36.200 Your cheeks are more narrow.

00:33:37.560 Like your eyes are bigger.

00:33:38.960 Your eyelashes are longer.

00:33:40.460 And I think at this stage of your life, I'm, you know, 28 years old.

00:33:44.880 My frontal lobe has developed.

00:33:46.500 It doesn't bother me.

00:33:47.480 Like it doesn't make me insecure and make me think, wow, I really wish I looked like that.

00:33:51.120 But when you're 13, 14, 15 years old and you're just, you know, starting to try to be

00:33:58.660 comfortable with what you look like, I do think that things like that, those filters,

00:34:04.080 what you're seeing on social media, these unrealistic standards now.

00:34:07.460 It's, you know, you have to be super curvy, look like a Kardashian or whatever.

00:34:11.500 I think it can put a lot of a huge, a huge burden on people, but it's so insightful what

00:34:17.840 you said, the overcorrection of that also can be unhealthy.

00:34:23.760 And I guess it's just the responsibility of saying people to try to bring people back

00:34:29.760 into balance.

00:34:31.060 It also reminds me when you said overcorrection of, okay, there are harmful gender stereotypes

00:34:36.140 that people shouldn't be plugged into that.

00:34:39.060 If you're a guy, sure, you should be free to like dance or pink or whatever.

00:34:43.020 If you're a girl, you should be free to like mud or four wheeling, whatever. 1.00

00:34:46.920 But we have almost overcorrected what could have been seen as harmful gender stereotypes

00:34:52.900 to pigeonhole people.

00:34:54.000 And now we have decided, well, there's no such thing as real gender at all.

00:34:59.440 There's no real fundamental biological difference between a male and a female.

00:35:04.140 Do you see the consequences of that overcorrection as well?

00:35:07.900 And do you think that we'll be able to move it back?

00:35:09.880 You know, absolutely.

00:35:12.780 And it's kind of frustrating because as someone who did grow up considering myself a tomboy,

00:35:16.980 you know, I look back to my childhood and I wonder what-

00:35:20.100 Which is so surprising, by the way.

00:35:21.020 Which is very surprising because we spent 10 minutes before this talking about blow-drying

00:35:26.400 round brush and makeup and hair products.

00:35:29.420 So you never know.

00:35:30.660 I used to be totally into the tomboy stuff, wore baggy t-shirts exclusively, things like that.

00:35:36.820 And, you know, I look back now, it's kind of like, wow, would I have been labeled some

00:35:40.840 sort of like gender fluid or non-binary thing if I had grown up nowadays?

00:35:45.900 And I think you're absolutely right.

00:35:47.840 You know, there was a time in history, which unfortunately not that long ago, within a couple

00:35:51.940 generations where, you know, if you were a girl and you didn't fit the exact female 0.99

00:35:55.800 archetype of being feminine and, you know, flirty, girly, beautiful, whatever, you were shamed

00:36:01.860 for it.

00:36:02.280 And likewise for men, if you didn't live up to that masculine ideal, then that was considered

00:36:06.480 a bad thing and you could be bullied for it.

00:36:08.280 I don't think that's, again, like bullying in general, not okay.

00:36:11.380 And I think people should be free to express themselves, even if the way that they do so

00:36:15.860 may not naturally fit their gender's stereotypical behavior.

00:36:19.880 That's okay.

00:36:20.640 You know, if your little girl wants to play with Hot Wheels instead of a Barbie, let her. 1.00

00:36:25.620 It's all right.

00:36:26.780 But now I think we've gotten to the point where we've not just wanted to allow people to live

00:36:32.380 more freely, we've actually begun deconstructing and debasing gender as an entire concept, which

00:36:38.900 is like, all right, you've lost me here.

00:36:41.560 And it's scary because especially like if you read, you know, what psychologists say about

00:36:46.780 raising healthy boys and girls, it's that, you know, a lot of the times the child's same

00:36:52.260 sex parent.

00:36:53.020 So if you're a daughter, your mother or son, your father, those are the strongest role models

00:36:58.420 for that child.

00:36:59.860 And right now we're deconstructing the family and gender as well.

00:37:03.080 And I worry that there's like a lot of children who are going to be growing up not really knowing

00:37:07.020 what it means to be a man or a woman and not just for society, but for themselves.

00:37:12.180 And these are these are questions that I think, you know, every teen who's kind of growing

00:37:16.800 up struggles with.

00:37:17.940 And I think we've kind of removed any form of guidance that as a society or as parents,

00:37:23.640 individuals, we might have been able to give those children because there is something

00:37:27.560 very fulfilling, you know, as a woman coming into your womanhood and being able to embrace

00:37:31.780 that femininity or not your choice. 1.00

00:37:34.040 But, you know, just the fact that it should be there, it should exist is for some reason

00:37:38.300 controversial now.

00:37:39.860 Yeah, we've gone to the point to where we think that we can change human nature.

00:37:43.820 We're debating human nature as if it's up for debate.

00:37:46.860 We're debating biology as if it's having an argument with us.

00:37:49.800 And biology is like, look, I'm just here.

00:37:51.960 I don't have an argument.

00:37:53.240 I am what I am.

00:37:54.060 I am I am what I am, except me or not, but I'm not going away.

00:37:58.280 And there's no societal change that that you can do.

00:38:02.400 No philosophical opining that you can do that is going to change biology.

00:38:07.240 And I think progressives hearing you say that, OK, you know, the family structure actually

00:38:13.340 has a biological, sociological aspect to it that affects a child's psychology.

00:38:22.100 It affects how they develop.

00:38:23.520 It affects how they see themselves and their their own gender.

00:38:27.840 They'll say, oh, no, that's not true.

00:38:29.780 You can reconstruct the family however you want to.

00:38:31.900 There will be no consequences whatsoever.

00:38:33.780 I always say that progressivism gets human nature wrong.

00:38:38.340 When you debate nature versus nurture, they always say nurture, that human beings are

00:38:43.620 malleable, that we can change basically human nature to fit our societal whims.

00:38:48.480 The fact that for millennia, family has been made up of a mom and a dad and a child and

00:38:54.100 that we have split human beings between male and female.

00:38:57.720 That doesn't matter at all.

00:38:59.300 We can change it because in the last five minutes we have decided to do that and no one will be

00:39:05.580 negatively affected.

00:39:06.720 But human nature is like a beach ball.

00:39:09.600 Truth is like a beach ball.

00:39:11.240 You can try to push it under the water as hard as you can.

00:39:14.200 It's going to keep popping back up.

00:39:16.900 I think that we're already starting to see that.

00:39:19.580 But it's not a pretty picture between the activists who want to deny biology and those

00:39:24.460 of us who are saying, hey, you know, science still matters.

00:39:28.120 We can debate the stereotypes for sure, but science still matters.

00:39:32.660 And I just worry about who's going to win that debate.

00:39:35.600 Unfortunately, the more I see news stories of, you know, different parents losing custody

00:39:43.160 battles because their child claims their trends and the parent doesn't want to give

00:39:47.100 them treatment, I'm more and more convinced that at the moment, at least the side of sanity

00:39:52.460 is not doing well.

00:39:53.900 And it just means we need to speak up more and more because, you know, you ask the question

00:39:57.040 who ends up getting hurt by this.

00:39:58.300 I think, honestly, it's the children, right?

00:39:59.980 We're seeing children now starting to come forward of, hey, I had this hormone therapy

00:40:05.180 or surgery when I was younger because I thought I was trans, but I think I was just going through

00:40:08.800 a phase.

00:40:09.460 But now my body is permanently changed, right?

00:40:11.260 There are those stories out there.

00:40:13.160 Never mind when we just talk about the family more broadly.

00:40:15.380 We see that there is a distinct impact on a child's life.

00:40:19.240 For example, if a father is not present, if you look at, for example, delinquents or people

00:40:24.080 who are in juvenile detention facilities, one of the biggest overarching factors that

00:40:28.220 binds them together, it's not class, it's not race, it's the fact that they come from

00:40:32.460 fatherless homes.

00:40:33.580 This is an epidemic.

00:40:35.100 And it affects young women as well.

00:40:37.160 Women who grew up without a father in the home are way more likely to, for example, become 1.00

00:40:41.260 pregnant as a teen or have a child out of wedlock.

00:40:43.860 Like this matters.

00:40:45.140 And I feel like we've we've too far tried to compensate for being nice to people and

00:40:51.240 accepting every lifestyle where we've forgotten that actually, you know, there are people

00:40:54.980 who could be hurt if people make the wrong choices.

00:40:57.680 But we're so afraid of offending everyone.

00:40:59.620 We don't it's like as a society, we've agreed, oh, we can't say anything anymore, which is

00:41:03.620 unfortunate for the people who are being hurt by these choices.

00:41:06.860 Yeah.

00:41:07.040 Children are almost always the subject of our social experiments and the people conducting

00:41:13.820 these social experiments really don't care how how the child turns out.

00:41:19.220 I mean, they are just they're just riding the waves of our progressive social whims and

00:41:26.480 we're just hoping for the best.

00:41:28.980 And like you said, I think it's going to take this next generation growing up and given 1.00

00:41:36.340 the and being given the voice of being able to be honest and say, like, yeah, me getting

00:41:42.000 this treatment, this hormone treatment as a 10 year old wasn't good for me.

00:41:46.260 I was the same way.

00:41:47.220 I never wanted to wear a dress.

00:41:49.200 I never wanted to.

00:41:51.080 I like snakes and bugs, which is totally not me.

00:41:54.020 Like, I'm not a tomboy.

00:41:55.400 I wasn't athletic or anything like that, but I hated wearing a dress.

00:41:58.720 I hated brushing my hair.

00:42:00.280 I wanted to wear a white T-shirt and jeans.

00:42:02.840 And I just I don't know if I was a tomboy, but I definitely was not girly.

00:42:07.160 And I think about the same thing.

00:42:10.980 I'm like, oh, my gosh, what if I had been what if my parents, you know, had been these

00:42:17.180 progressive people who had been told by some child psychologist, you know, about eight

00:42:22.540 years old, we need to start doing purity blockers.

00:42:25.720 That is that's a terrifying.

00:42:27.940 That's a terrifying prospect.

00:42:29.760 And you're right.

00:42:30.900 I do think that we all need to speak up a little bit more.

00:42:33.780 Can you leave people with any kind of encouragement, motivation to speak up about all the issues

00:42:38.680 that we talked about today?

00:42:39.880 But they're feeling scared.

00:42:41.320 They're worried about cancel culture.

00:42:42.620 They're worried about being bullied.

00:42:43.900 But really, the future of sanity is on sane people telling the truth, right?

00:42:50.980 Right, for sure.

00:42:51.840 Well, I think that there are more of us out there than we might think, because so many

00:42:56.060 people are afraid to keep our mouths shut.

00:42:58.380 And I know, you know, this is being filmed in January, but I'm sure things will probably be

00:43:02.600 the same kind of macabre feeling among a lot of conservative or Christian circles that,

00:43:06.920 you know, you could feel discouraged.

00:43:09.380 And, you know, my Bible study is actually going through the book, like through judges

00:43:12.540 right now.

00:43:13.300 So it's very, very timely.

00:43:15.300 But this is actually our time to shine, right?

00:43:17.880 It is these times where things seem like they're going poorly or things are hard that people

00:43:22.980 who are convicted and have a message to send really have the opportunity to do so.

00:43:27.840 So I think it's not only an opportunity, it's also a responsibility for us to try to make

00:43:32.680 things better for future generations, for even us later down the line.

00:43:36.220 And, you know, this is not the time to sit back and give up.

00:43:39.220 It's actually the opposite.

00:43:40.320 We need to be more vocal now than ever.

00:43:42.900 Awesome.

00:43:43.040 Well, thank you so much, Lauren.

00:43:44.320 I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us.

00:43:47.940 Thank you for having me.

00:43:49.040 Bye.

00:44:14.980 Bye.

00:44:15.800 Bye.

00:44:15.920 Bye.

00:44:16.500 Bye.

00:44:16.840 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 28, 2021

Ep 445 ｜ Canada's 'Free' Health Care Is a Myth ｜ Guest： Lauren Chen

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