Ep 453 ｜ 'God Bless Abortion'？
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Summary
In this episode, Allie talks about a recent interview she recorded in studio with the head of a Christian non-profit organization that was denied 501c3 status by the IRS. Allie also talks about her experience with a similar situation growing up and how she dealt with it.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. As you can probably tell, I am not in my fancy
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studio with my nice set and my fancy microphone. It sounds different. It looks different. If
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you are watching on YouTube, that's because I am a little under the weather and I'm feeling
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a lot better than I was yesterday, but I still wanted to play it safe and record from the
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comfort of my room. And so that is what I'm doing, but hopefully I'll be back in the studio
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tomorrow. Now, do not feel bad for me. I always get messages from you guys, you very compassionate
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listeners who say, Oh, Allie, you just need to rest. You need to, you know, not worry about getting
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content out. And I really appreciate that. But I'm recording this episode rather than
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recording like a replay episode, because I want to, we're talking about very important
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things today. And I really wanted to make sure that we got this episode out for you guys.
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But it does remind me, I don't know if you guys have seen that meme going around, or maybe
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it was a tweet that kind of turned into a meme. What does meme even mean anymore? I don't know.
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But there was this tweet going around that was like, European out of office is like,
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hello, thank you for your email. I am on vacation until September and will not be returning your
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messages. And then the American out of office is like, hi, just out of the office for two hours
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for kidney surgery, but I'll be available by myself. That is very accurate. I've only really ever worked
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in like small business or in some kind of entrepreneurial setting. So that meme really
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hit me hard because that is very true. Non-corporate life, especially in the United States, freelancer
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life, entrepreneur life, business owner life is very much nonstop. But it's also part of what makes
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this country the best in the world. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. All right. That was an aside.
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Um, the episodes that I will be recording tomorrow, hopefully, if I'm feeling better in studio,
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one of them will be an interview with my dad. And I'm really excited about that. My dad is involved
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in Texas politics. That's where I grew up. He is going to talk to us about the voting bill that Texas
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Democrats are currently protesting by fleeing the state. They literally got on a private flight to DC,
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and they're trying to get help from democratic politicians in DC to stop the voting integrity
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bill in Texas. My dad's going to talk to us about that. But a lot of you also asked me questions
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about my parents, like how I grew up, what parenting choices my parents made, how I was raised, what they
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did to kind of encourage me to pursue the things that I wanted to pursue. So if you guys are interested
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in that, I will ask him some of those questions. He's also a great person to get advice from.
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I told their story before I wrote about it a little bit in my book, too, you're not enough,
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and that's okay. They started from very little, they worked really, really hard to give my brothers
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and me a better life than the one that they had. Growing up, my dad took every opportunity to make
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that possible. He ended up being very successful in his pursuits of trying to give us a better life.
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So if you need business advice, if you need political insight, if you need some parenting tips,
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he would probably be willing to give answers to all of those kinds of questions. So if you have any of
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those, just shoot me a DM on Instagram, and I'll add it to the list of things to ask him. I also
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interviewed my mom back in 2019. We talked about how to share the gospel on Halloween, and we also
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answered some personal questions about parenting and things like that, so you can go back and listen
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to that episode if that's something that you're interested in. But today, you are going to listen
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to an interview I actually recorded yesterday in studio with the head of a non-profit organization,
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a Christian non-profit organization, that was originally denied 501c3 status by the IRS because
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they actually said in writing, in their response, in their reasoning for why they denied 501c3 status
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this organization, that biblical values are typically associated with the Republican Party. I can't
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believe they actually said that. So Bunny Pounds, the head of the organization, is going to be talking
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to us about that whole ordeal and the actually very surprising and I think kind of encouraging outcome
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that this whole ordeal ended in. But first, we are going to talk about this very disturbing story
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that some of you guys sent me on Instagram, a story coming out of Arkansas, an organization which
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I don't think that I will actually name. And we might even like blur out their Instagram account
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handle when we put the picture up for those of you watching on YouTube because they're obviously doing
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what they're doing for attention and I'm not sure that I want to gratify them in that way.
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They decided that they were going to hoist a huge sign up on a seven-story statue of Jesus that stands
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in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. This is an organization that apparently raises support for abortion and
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abortion funding, especially in the South where they see what they would probably call an attack on abortion
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rights, so-called abortion rights. On Instagram, the organization posted a picture and said,
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this, in Arkansas, there's only one 65-foot statue of Jesus. There's also only one abortion clinic.
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Just a bunch of angry men with no outlets writing outrageous laws about vaginas. That and the second
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highest rate by state of infant mortality. It's hard to see how pro-life can be so myopic in its vision
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of what life is. In Arkansas, there are ridiculous statutes based on cheap performative morality
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and their eyes. Mary Magdalene was a whore, not a favored disciple. That's just how they see a
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woman's place in the world and her body is a place too. Private property to be legislated by a group of
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landlords. I will give credit. That last line is pretty poetic. And then here we go. Here's another
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part of this long Instagram caption. We think Jesus would understand the concept of a difficult decision.
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He supposedly had to make a few of them, but understood sacrifice intimately. We just think
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abortion is a, I won't say it, a GD miracle worth celebrating. It saves lives, but those lives are
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usually female. Usually female. When people have strong beliefs about decisions that don't affect them,
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those beliefs are worth questioning. So obviously I have a lot to respond to. First, I just want to
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mention that last line. When people have strong beliefs about decisions that don't affect them,
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those beliefs are worth questioning. Like let's take that logic to its conclusion. Does that mean
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that we're not allowed to care about decisions that don't affect us? Does that mean that men aren't
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allowed to care about abortion? Does that mean that if you're straight decisions that are made
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about gay people shouldn't affect you? Or if you're white, um, and decisions made about black people
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that you shouldn't care about those. I thought that was having empathy. And these are the same kinds
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of people that are always telling us that empathy is paramount. So we're not allowed to care about
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causes that don't directly affect us. Cause there were a lot of people that would probably agree with
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this post who really cared about what was going on. And for example, Israel and Palestine. I mean,
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a part of having compassion is caring about things that don't directly affect you, especially
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if these decisions are affecting a group of people that don't have a voice themselves. Of course,
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like that is what activism is. That's what compassion is speaking up for the voiceless. That's
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what people who are against abortion are doing. And I want to also correct a couple
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other things and respond to the logic and some of the claims made in this post. And I hope it's
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helpful for you. We do this every few months and talking about abortion. I really want to equip you
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guys to be able to confront these kinds of statements and arguments and discussions and
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conversations, um, about abortion, especially with people who call themselves pro-choice. First,
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I think it's important to know just to be factual, not that it really makes that much of a difference to
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their post. But according to the CDC, Arkansas is actually 11th for infant mortality rates. Just
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to clarify that, that's still not great. But like I said, it's probably important to be accurate. The
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post said that they're second, they're actually 11th. So just FYI. Second, abortion laws are not about
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vaginas. There are so many different ways that pro-choice, pro-abortion people, which I would say
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these people, I mean, is there really anything, uh, is it, is it even possible to be pro-choice
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without being pro-abortion? I'm not really sure when it comes down to it, but these people are
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obviously pro-abortion. I don't think that you hang a sign on a statue of Jesus that says God bless
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abortion, unless you are pro-abortion. But there are all kinds of tactics that pro-abortion people try
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to employ to make abortion be as trivial as possible or, um, strictly about regulating and
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policing women's anatomy. And so they're not even saying that this is about regulating a woman's
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uterus. They're saying that this is about regulating someone's vagina. I'm just going to just tell,
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I'm, this is good news. I hope that you feel relieved feminist after I say this. No one,
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there's no law on the books that is regulating your vagina and do what you want with it. What
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we're talking about here is babies. These are babies. Abortion kills a human being. Now you can
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call that human being if you want to, if it helps sanitize it in your mind to make you feel better
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about this, you can call them a club of cells, or you can say that he or she isn't really a person
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yet. It doesn't have value yet. You can keep perpetuating some mystical nonsense about human
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beings only gaining worth and rights, uh, when they exit the birth canal. But the fact is at the
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moment of conception, sperm meets egg, there is unique human DNA, sex, eye color, and all the
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child's attributes are already determined in that moment. All it takes from then on, which is where we
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all started, by the way, it's time and nourishment, but there is no moment after conception when, when a
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zygote or embryo or fetus suddenly becomes a person that is unscientific, arbitrary nonsense, fertilized
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egg, zygote, embryo, fetus in relation to human pregnancy. They're all words for different stages
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of human development in the same way that a baby is still a child. So a fetus is still a baby in the
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same way that a baby isn't any less of a person than a teenager. So a zygote isn't any less of a person
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than an out of the womb baby. So let's go back to the basics on this. What is the justification
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for killing a human being inside the womb? Is it because of location in a woman's body? So you're
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telling me that location is your determinant for killing someone? Is it stage of development? So
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you're telling me the younger a person is, the less developed the person is, the more okay it is to kill
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them. Is it because of size? So you're telling me that a, that the smaller a person is killing them
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is more justified? Is it dependency on the mother that justifies it? So you're telling me that the
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more dependent a person is, the more acceptable it is to kill them? Because there's a lot of people
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outside the womb that are very dependent on other people, on their caretakers, on even machines in
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order to live. So are you saying that those people are disposable? Is it because the baby in the womb
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might grow up and have a hard life or be poor or be abused or be unwanted? There are millions of
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people around the world right now that meet that criteria. Should we kill them? Is it because the
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child has been diagnosed with some kind of disorder? There are lots of people with life-threatening
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disorders today. Is it okay to kill them? The fact is there is no justification for abortion that
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would not logically apply to people outside the womb too. If you think killing a baby in the womb
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is okay, then you are admitting that based on some totally arbitrary criteria that some humans are
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expendable, some humans are disposable. And you might say, no, no, no, no, it's none of those things.
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And I think a lot of people just kind of push those questions out of their mind because it's too hard to
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really think about. You might just say, no, it's just because I believe in women's choice. Like I
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believe in bodily autonomy, except it's not just her body. It's not just her body. There's another
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person's body inside of her. And I'm just asking, why don't you think that human being has rights?
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If it's based on any of the criteria that we just listed, it's totally arbitrary. And you're going to
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have to tell me your logic for not applying those criteria to people outside of the womb and denying
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their right to life. Abortion poisons the baby, starves the baby, or forces the baby into a heart
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attack using the same combination of chemicals used for lethal injection for death row murderers
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so that the baby twitches in pain and rise in pain and actually physically shrinks back from the prick
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of the needle. And then after the baby is forced into cardiac arrest and then dies, it is pulled apart
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limb by limb with forceps and removed from the mother. So that's what you're defending when you are
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defending abortion, whether you say that you're pro-choice or whether you are hanging up a sign
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on the statue of Jesus that says, God bless abortion. That's what you're defending.
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What about the life of the mother? A lot of people say if the life of the mother is at risk anytime
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after about 23 weeks, maybe even 22 weeks, I think that there's at least one case I know of a
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of a 21 week old baby, not 21 week old baby, but I'm talking in gestation actually survived outside
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of the womb and has grown up and is totally healthy. I think that's the youngest possible
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week of gestation where a baby could actually survive outside the womb with a lot of medical
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intervention and help. But really anytime after 23 weeks, second trimester, the option, if the life
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of the mother is at risk is delivery, it's delivery. Either way, the baby is coming out, whether through
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abortion or whether through delivery, both are different kinds of birth of the baby. You're just
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deciding whether or not you're going to birth a dead baby or whether or not you are going to birth
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a living baby. And so if a woman's life would be saved by getting the baby out, then the option
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is delivery. There's no reason to kill the baby in the process. Now, just to clarify, pro-lifers also
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believe that if there is an emergency situation in which the life of the baby and the life of the
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mother are competing against one another, that every effort should be made to try to save both the baby
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and the mother. But if in an effort to save the mother, the baby happens to die while that is tragic,
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it's not wrong because it's not the intentional killing of the baby. We oppose pro-lifers the
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intentional killing of babies in the womb, period. And don't come at me with, you're not pro-life,
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you're pro-birth. When is the last time, anyone who says that, when is the last time you donated
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your time, your money, and your energy to help pregnant moms and families in crisis? Because
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every pro-lifer I know, without judgment, without condemnation, or hesitation, has helped
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women, either financially or otherwise, who are in crisis. I would encourage you, if you consider
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yourself pro-choice or pro-abortion, to visit a pro-life pregnancy center. I know the Planned
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Parenthood propaganda wants to tell you that these are places that are lying to women about what
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abortion is. The fact of the matter is, it's Planned Parenthood who lies to women. Planned Parenthood who
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won't show you the ultrasound, won't allow you to hear the heartbeat, won't actually tell you what
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happens in an abortion, but just uses euphemism to tell you that it's going to be, you know, no more
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important than just pulling a tooth. These pro-life pregnancy centers, they don't have, they don't
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have any reason not to tell you the truth, because the truth about abortion is brutal. Like, it's
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convincing in itself. The science is convincing in itself. Pro-life pregnancy centers are not places
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that shame women into keeping their kids. They offer all kinds of free services, education programs,
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adoption help, help with employment, help with filing for benefits, help with immigration, refuge from
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abusive situations, free or affordable diapers, cribs, car seats. Does Planned Parenthood offer any of these
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things for women who decide to keep their babies? Not that I know of. It is a myth that pro-lifers
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don't care about babies after they're born just because we don't agree with every leftist policy
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proposal that they say is supposed to solve the problems for poor families. Now, I agree that
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Arkansas and other poor southern states that top the list for maternal and infant mortality should
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absolutely focus on solutions to that atrocity. But does acknowledging that mean that I also have to
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accept the killing of babies in the womb? I don't think so. I think pro-lifers should be advocating
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for policies that reduce as much as possible the infant and maternal mortality rate. If that's
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something that pro-choicers and pro-lifers can agree on, come together and try to solve that crisis,
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more power to people who can reach across the aisle and do that. But I am not going to use that as a
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justification for killing babies in the womb. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a red herring
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to distract from the main question, which is, why do you believe it's okay to kill some defenseless,
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innocent human beings? So whenever you're in a conversation or a debate with someone who is
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pro-abortion or who says they're pro-choice, always bring it back to the baby. Now, they will try to
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distract you with all kinds of other points that may be worthy to talk about at some point, like I
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said, like talking about these different kinds of policy solutions that could lower the rates of
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infant and maternal mortality. But talking about these things still don't address the only question
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when it comes to abortion that matters. Why do you think it's okay to kill innocent, defenseless
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humans? Like, what's the justification? What's the excuse for that? Now, the person that you're
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talking to typically will then answer. They'll kind of divert again and say, well, babies in the womb
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aren't really babies. It's a fetus, as if fetus isn't just a Latin word for offspring, human offspring.
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Or they'll say it's not a person yet. They're just clumps of cells. And then you can point out what we
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discussed earlier, which is the very basic embryology about gestation, about life inside the womb. You can
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just point out, well, that's just not scientifically true. We got to agree on the fact that this is a human
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being at every stage of development from the moment of conception on. So tell me at what stage you think
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it's okay to kill a human being and why. And tell me why you think that's a good justification for babies inside the
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womb to be killed, but not babies or people outside the womb to be killed. And that, it sounds like a
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slippery slope, but that's because it is actually a slippery slope. I wish it were a fallacy, but
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there are already academics and philosophers and bioethicists in the collegiate sphere that advocate
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for the option to kill a child after birth, even up until two years, if that's what the parents
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desire. And so that's because the logic is very slippery. Anytime that you decide that worth is
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ascribed to a person sometime after conception, and therefore there's a right to kill them, you are
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sliding down a very slippery moral and logical slope. And I've never heard someone be able to defend
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that. The only honest argument for abortion that I've ever heard is when people say that it's okay
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to kill some innocent humans based on whatever their standard is. They just kind of admit that they
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don't use the euphemisms. They don't try to say that it's not killing. They don't try to say that
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it's just a clump of cells. They'll admit exactly what abortion is. And they face the facts and they say,
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yes, it's justified because I actually think that women having that choice trumps any right that a
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baby has to life. And it is killing. And they would say, it's okay. It's still morally repugnant,
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but at least they're honest about it. At least they're not being unscientific. At least they're
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not trying to say that somehow it's not killing and magically the baby just disappears. Or like I've
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heard a lot of pro abortion people say it's terminating a pregnancy. What's a pregnancy? What's a
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pregnancy guys? So when you're on the side that cannot be specific about the thing that you are
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defending, like about the side that you're on and what abortion actually is, then that tells you
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probably that you're on the wrong side. I have debated people in Congress about this and I have yet
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to hear a single pro abortion, pro choice or mainstream at least in Congress or otherwise
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give me an actual compelling or morally not reprehensible argument for why killing babies
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in the womb is okay. I've never heard it. I have never heard it. Now, last response to this post
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about saying, you know, Jesus, he would understand. He understands hard decisions and he would understand
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abortion and, you know, he's pro choice, whatever. God hates abortion, period. Why? Because he hates
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murder. That's what he makes clear from Genesis onward. God hates the shedding of blood of innocent
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people. It is an injustice that will incur his wrath. We see in the Old Testament how much God
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detested child sacrifice that was and still is a pagan ritual, only now it's been given the Americanized
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name, which is reproductive rights. Jesus says, let the little children come to me when the disciples
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were trying to shoo them away. Everywhere in the Bible that we see pregnancy discussed, it's mentioned
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as a blessing from God. Psalm 139, Jeremiah 1, both talk about the formation of babies in the womb
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and God knowing us even as we're growing in our mom's bodies. That makes it clear that we don't suddenly
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become a person when we're born, that we were already a person made in the image of God when we were in our
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mother's wombs. And that goes for all babies in their mother's wombs. Now, hear me. I want to be
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super, super clear about this. That is not me, that God hates women who have had abortion. If you have
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had an abortion, God loves you so much. He can forgive you. He can pour out mercy and grace upon you. He can
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absolutely use your story for his glory to help other people and to tell of his faithfulness. We see in
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scripture that God forgives the people that we would probably deem unforgivable, the sins that we would
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probably not even want to utter out loud. The most hard-hearted people God forgives when they repent in
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faith and turn to him. Jesus, the same Jesus that was desecrated by these people who love abortion and
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clearly hate God, died for you. He died for you so that your sins could be forgiven forever and you could
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experience joy and freedom for all of eternity. God is holy. We are not. And we have to be made holy
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and reconciled to God. And that's what Jesus' sacrifice does for us. It makes us new. It gives
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us a soft heart. He gives us his righteousness and his holiness, no matter what we've done, so that we
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are a friend of God forever and ever. And that's what happens when you, by grace, through faith, come to
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the Lord through Christ. And this leads me to my final point on this, that God can, he doesn't just
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use the terror and the horribleness of abortion for his glory and the good of other people. He will
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also use this desecration of this statue for good. More people are now hearing about the statue than
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ever before. The passion of Jesus is actually performed as a play at this statue. And now more
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people will hear about it and go see the gospel of Jesus played out. So go tell people about it.
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Take your family. If you're close by, support the people who put on the great passion play. It's
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actually an organization called the great passion play. Um, and here's what the organization said
00:25:26.780
in response to this whole thing. They said, we wanted to acknowledge and give notice of the 45 foot
00:25:32.920
drop cloth to be used in our mission trip program. Uh, the email to, uh, to the people who put up the
00:25:40.200
sign, uh, read, you trespassed on our property and hung this drop cloth from the Christ of the
00:25:45.560
Ozarks Memorial statue and put your lives at risk as well as the people's lives. You took it down.
00:25:50.580
You used our statue to further your platform, but we are thankful for the opportunity to share our
00:25:55.620
mission. The passion play is a 501c3 nonprofit organization dedicated to lifting up the miraculous
00:26:01.300
life, sacrificial death, burial, and ultimately the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
00:26:05.540
We pray those who hung this banner are able to come and see Jesus hung on the cross and a
00:26:10.800
production that has been seen by over 8 million people. Now the email continued performances are
00:26:15.840
on Tuesdays, Fridays, and Saturday nights through the end of October. Security is now stationed
00:26:21.580
overnight and the cry to the Ozarks as well. We will not accept additional donations from your
00:26:27.360
organization. Um, so I'm not really sure what that last line means. This was reported by the
00:26:34.560
Christian post, by the way. So I love the attitude of the people who run this organization. And I feel
00:26:40.260
the same way that God is absolutely going to use this to further the mission of this organization
00:26:47.080
of people who are trying to share Christ at this statue. So let's pray for that. Like let's pray for
00:26:52.840
the people who hung this banner, that they would come to know Christ, that their hearts would be made
00:26:56.780
soft, that they would repent, uh, repent, and that many people would hear the gospel and come to know
00:27:01.880
Christ through this. Uh, we know that what Satan means for evil, God can always use for good because
00:27:07.620
God is relentlessly committed to his own glory and people's grandest efforts to thwart that will always
00:27:13.980
fail. So let's pray for his glory. Let's pray for the gospel to go out through this and thwart any
00:27:20.120
attempts to try to, to try to inhibit the gospel going out. They will ultimately fail. Those efforts will
00:27:27.400
always be futile because God is sovereign and thank goodness, uh, we are not. Um, all right,
00:27:34.080
we're about to transition into, um, into my interview with the bunny pounds. This is another
00:27:39.740
great example of how God can use bad situations or what seem like bad situations for, um, our good and
00:27:47.580
for his glory. Buddy, thank you so much for joining me. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you
00:27:57.440
do? Well, it's great to be here, Ali. Huge respect for you and everything you bring to the conservative
00:28:02.620
movement, knowing theology and political education. It's so important. Thank you so much. Um, I lead
00:28:08.260
Christians Engage. We're a nonpartisan Christian ministry, uh, mostly focused on the state of Texas,
00:28:13.320
but you know, now looking our eyes around America, but our goal is to help people build habits of
00:28:20.200
prayer, voting and engagement for the sake of America. And we do that through simple education
00:28:25.460
on the importance of prayer for our city, state nation, our elected officials, the importance of
00:28:30.200
voting in every election and taking our civic duties, uh, that has been given to us by our founding fathers
00:28:36.120
as important, uh, sacred trust that we have as we, the people, and also as believers in Jesus.
00:28:41.920
And then also to help people engage in basic, uh, civic engagement education, how to understand how
00:28:48.980
the sausage is made, how to respond to God as it relates to the pre-born human trafficking,
00:28:54.900
whatever initiatives or issues that they want to get involved with. So we're kind of like the
00:28:58.880
on-ramp, the beginning place for Christians to get active. Well, sounds like something that's
00:29:03.180
super necessary. I know that there are a lot of Christians that are asking the questions that you
00:29:07.280
guys are answering. What does God have to say about abortion? What does God have to say about the
00:29:11.620
family? And what is the biblical definition of justice? All these things that the secular world
00:29:16.160
seems to be trying to answer, but Christians want to know, like, what does God's word say?
00:29:20.580
And you guys really help Christians understand that. Now tell me what happened between your
00:29:25.680
organization, Christians Engaged, and the IRS. Well, we applied for our tax exempt status,
00:29:30.700
like every organization does, when we launched back in December, 2019. Uh, and 18 months later in May,
00:29:37.780
we received a letter from the IRS pretty much denying our, um, tax exempt status. And they did
00:29:44.580
that. And they said in writing that biblical teachings are quote, affiliated with the Republican
00:29:50.000
party, which is interesting because I always felt like the Bible was a kingdom document,
00:29:55.320
kingdom document, not a partisan document. Right. So, you know, they pretty much violated their own
00:30:01.160
rules. Um, and we do everything that any other organization does, which is educate people on their
00:30:07.040
civic duties, um, educate people from a biblical perspective. Um, so the situation here with the
00:30:13.340
IRS is that if that decision was meant to stand, then that could affect really every Christian
00:30:19.500
organization that teaches the Bible around America. Right. Because they could say that this
00:30:23.760
is a partisan organization when it's not simply because they're espousing biblical values. So what
00:30:29.960
happened after that? Obviously you tried to, um, you tried to reverse the decision or appeal the
00:30:35.260
decision. So what happened? Yeah, we had an amazing friends at first Liberty Institute,
00:30:40.360
Kelly Shackelford and his team, Leah Patterson is my attorney and they appealed, uh, for us a 12 page
00:30:46.920
appeal is beautiful to the IRS laying out that they violated their own rules and violated, um, what they
00:30:53.740
should have done with our case. And 22 days later by a miracle, they repealed this decision. Um, it was
00:31:00.920
such a big miracle because we had so many people around the country that stood up and prayed for us
00:31:07.880
that wrote letters to the IRS that took this as a personal, uh, affront even to their own biblical
00:31:14.140
beliefs. And it was such a powerful movement to see people stand up. And then we had members of
00:31:19.240
Congress, uh, Senator Mike Lee, Senator Ted Cruz, uh, uh, Chip Roy from Texas that led a letter to the
00:31:26.580
IRS commissioner. And then another letter was written from Jim Jordan and Kevin Brady to the
00:31:31.520
treasury commissioner to lay out the egregiousness of this case. And that encourages me a lot.
00:31:37.660
Obviously I'm troubled, disturbed by their original decision, but that there is still power in people
00:31:45.040
speaking up and Christians standing up and saying, or just people who care about fairness, people who
00:31:50.520
care about Liberty standing up and saying, okay, this is not right. That actually has the power
00:31:55.840
to affect change. I think there's a lot of people out there that think that their voice doesn't
00:32:00.660
matter, that they, um, that they don't have the power to influence our elected officials or bureaucrats
00:32:08.080
because that's so often the case. Now, what do you think is the implication for other organizations
00:32:16.360
or even individuals? If for example, the IRS decides, okay, you know, we decided to reverse our
00:32:22.340
decision there about going forward. We're still going to hold to this principle that anyone who
00:32:26.360
tries to hold to biblical principles is partisan and Republican, and we're going to kind of discriminate
00:32:31.380
against them. What would that look like? I think we have to be diligent as believers. And when I saw
00:32:36.560
the letter and I thought, did they just put that in writing? Yeah. You know, we, we had a choice even
00:32:42.460
within our board of directors. Do we just go on and create a 501c4 or are we within the law?
00:32:49.480
Right. And so thankfully we made the decision to stand up. And of course, with our friends at First
00:32:55.440
Liberty, get great counsel to help us in this endeavor, but it's a wake up call for believers
00:33:00.620
that, you know, government is the only thing that can encroach upon our liberties. Right. And so we
00:33:07.280
have politics in our schools and our churches all throughout America. We're dealing with politics,
00:33:13.640
but government and why it's so important to involve ourselves in our civic duties is because
00:33:18.900
government can encroach upon our rights and our liberties. So all of us have a responsibility to
00:33:26.000
stand up and make sure our voices are heard when we see any kind of encroachment on that. And that's
00:33:30.800
what our friends at First Liberty does to help defend people around all the country on our First
00:33:37.220
Amendment rights. But we all have to be diligent to find that wherever we find it in our communities.
00:33:42.400
Right. Yeah, definitely. I think what bothers a lot of people is the clear double standard that it seems
00:33:48.240
like that IRS has shown towards Republican organizations, not that yours is Republican, but
00:33:54.760
organizations that it sees as Republican or partisan and versus how they treat, for example,
00:34:02.820
like an organization started by someone like Michelle Obama that they see as more neutral.
00:34:08.780
And so and we've seen that in the past with Lois Lerner under the Obama administration and people
00:34:15.480
are troubled by it. But I think your story, it goes to show that when Christians are engaged,
00:34:20.540
when they're praying, when they're speaking up, when they're reaching out to our representatives,
00:34:24.900
that positive change can happen. And hopefully it can change. It can affect positive change on an even
00:34:31.060
larger scale as well. Do you have a hopeful view of the country and that if Christians are engaged like
00:34:37.380
you guys want them to be, they do speak up and stand up for the things that matter, vote in accordance
00:34:42.760
with their biblical values that and that things can change for the better? I do. I think this is a great
00:34:51.500
story of hope for a lot of people. We hear a lot of bad news, right? We're constantly feeling like
00:34:56.440
we're under attack as believers. But this is a great example of how if we stand up, our Republic
00:35:03.200
works. The Founding Fathers gave us a gift in this nation. We undervalue it so many times and we
00:35:10.140
discredit what the gift we've been given as Americans. And so if we do that, if we take
00:35:16.440
responsibility for our cities and our communities and our chamber of commerces and our state and our
00:35:22.340
nation, things can change. And God is raising up the church right now to be stronger lights than ever
00:35:30.940
before. In darkness, we know that in the midst of darkness, as it gets darker, the light shines
00:35:36.780
brighter. And that's what's happening in our nation right now. And it gives me so much hope because we
00:35:41.580
are seeing people are waking up, they're feeling a burden for America, and they're trying to respond.
00:35:46.900
And that's what we do at Christians Engage is plug them into simple steps to respond to what the
00:35:51.520
Lord is saying as it relates to their call to the nation.
00:35:54.580
That's awesome. A lot of people are looking for tangible steps to take. And I'm glad you guys
00:35:59.480
are providing that. Can you tell everyone how they can support you, how they can find
00:36:05.500
Absolutely. ChristiansEngage.org is our website. We've got hundreds of articles, podcasts, videos
00:36:11.140
on there. Take our pledge to pray, vote, and engage. And we'll remind you to pray with thousands
00:36:16.740
of other people on Mondays at 555. Remind you to vote. Remind you to be engaged. And everybody
00:36:22.940
lives very busy lives. We understand that. This is just one of the parts of your Christian walk.
00:36:27.740
But we want to help support you as a parachurch ministry to help you pray, vote, and engage
00:36:33.300
Awesome. Well, Bunny, thank you so much. This really was a huge story that I think all Christians
00:36:38.660
really need to pay attention to. We've got to be diligent. We've got to be watching for this
00:36:42.760
kind of stuff because it's slowly and silently that freedoms are encroached upon. But like
00:36:48.180
you said, when Christians, when Americans stand up, when we start caring about these things,
00:36:52.540
praying about these things, doing something about these things, things can change for the
00:36:56.400
better. So thank you for being such a pioneer in that. I really appreciate it. And I encourage
00:37:00.180
everyone as well to support you and to support Christians Engaged. Thank you for joining me.
00:37:04.040
Well, thank you for everything you do. And let's just keep standing up.
00:37:12.760
All right. So just a quick outro to say, to remind you guys that God is completely in control
00:37:25.980
of the things that seem like they are spiraling out of control. When bad things happen, when
00:37:31.460
it seems like every single institution is against what is good and right and true, God is not
00:37:37.860
going to allow his plan to be thwarted. He's just not. Like I said, he is relentlessly committed to
00:37:45.620
his own glory and he is perfectly sovereign. Everything will unfold according to his perfect
00:37:53.840
will. And he will one day exact justice. And we have hope in that, but we also have hope in today
00:37:59.920
that when we push back against what we know to be dark, what we know to be wrong, what we know to be
00:38:05.400
unjust, that differences can be made. Not just when it comes to organizations rejecting 501c3 status
00:38:12.060
of a Christian organization, but also when it comes to people trying to advertise for abortion
00:38:18.500
in the name of Jesus Christ, God can use all of these things for his glory. And we as ambassadors
00:38:23.640
of Christ, as salt and light in this world, get to be a part of that. We get to be his hands and feet
00:38:31.720
and continue to use bad and seemingly hopeless situations to remind people of hope and goodness
00:38:38.380
and truth and the faithfulness of God that was ultimately displayed in the sacrifice and
00:38:43.320
resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is our privilege to go into dark spaces, to go to dark places and to
00:38:50.920
be light. When light enters, darkness scatters. That is what the Holy Spirit is in us. So don't be
00:38:57.200
discouraged. Don't despair. You've got a responsibility though. Don't just sit on your
00:39:02.060
hands. Don't not say something or not do something that God is calling you to do because it might be
00:39:08.940
scary. I was talking to someone who messaged me that said, you know, if I try to stand up against
00:39:15.800
abortion or if I try to stand up against the divisiveness of a lot of the racial rhetoric that
00:39:23.860
we are hearing today, if I try to stand up for biblical marriage and a biblical scientific
00:39:29.260
understanding of gender and sexuality, I'm going to be called a bigot. And I don't know what to do
00:39:34.980
with that. And my advice is to, I don't want to sound, I don't want to sound flippant at all because
00:39:41.900
I'm telling this to myself too, that we have to get over that fear and we have to accept the fact
00:39:47.940
that we will get pushback. Like we will get insults. We will be called names. Like there's no way to
00:39:54.080
avoid that unless you want to completely capitulate to secularism in every way. Um, but if you want to
00:40:01.520
stand for anything that is worth standing for it, yeah, you're going to get people who call you names
00:40:07.520
and who are going to say things about you that you know are not true. And we've got to get over that
00:40:12.420
fear, push past it, and then double down on the things that we know to be good and right and true,
00:40:17.600
raising a respectful ruckus when everyone is telling us that we should just be quiet and not
00:40:22.120
care, that we should just look the other way and not care as vulnerable people are being exploited by,
00:40:28.360
um, secular progressivism. So I just wanted to encourage you in that, that it is always worth
00:40:35.320
doing and saying something and that God will use you and your efforts for his glory, because that's
00:40:41.380
what he does. Hope is never completely lost because our hope is in Christ and he's eternal and he
00:40:47.560
promises to come back and make everything right. All right, that's all I've got for today. I will see