Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 476 ｜ Anxious About Everything： Addressing Anxiety Biblically ｜ Guest： Dr. Andi Thacker

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. Hope everyone is having a wonderful week.

00:00:16.040 So far, that's how I open my show every day. Maybe I need to test some new openers. If you

00:00:21.980 have any ideas, let me know. Today's conversation that I'm about to have with Dr. Thacker from

00:00:29.980 Dallas Theological Seminary is going to be—you're going to absolutely love it. It is such a

00:00:36.780 refreshing conversation. We're taking a step back from everything that's going on in the world.

00:00:41.940 We're not talking about politics. We're not really talking about what's going on in the news.

00:00:46.300 And we are going to talk about mental health. Specifically, we're going to talk about anxiety

00:00:52.220 and how we approach anxiety from a biblical perspective. She's going to give us some

00:00:56.740 practical tools that we can use ourselves when we find ourselves kind of trapped in anxious

00:01:02.380 thoughts. And then we're also going to talk about how we approach this with our kids and with

00:01:09.780 adolescents, especially teenagers. The world has really turned upside down for them as well over

00:01:14.920 the past year and a half. And we're really seeing a rise in mental health issues among young people.

00:01:20.580 And so she's going to give a lot of advice and also a lot of encouragement for parents, either

00:01:26.220 parents of littles, but especially for parents of teenagers, or maybe if you're a teenager yourself,

00:01:31.980 she's going to give us some tips to work through anxiety, to work through depression, and to work

00:01:41.960 through a lot of pressure that kids are feeling right now and what parents can do to come alongside

00:01:48.780 kids in really tough seasons. And so I hope that this feels like a breath of fresh air for you guys.

00:01:56.600 We've been talking a lot over the past couple of weeks of feeling like the weight of the world is

00:02:01.540 just on our shoulders, feeling like we are bearing burdens that God never meant us to bear because of

00:02:07.760 the power of social media making us feel like we have to be everywhere, see everything, know

00:02:14.120 everything, and do everything about everything all at once. And we just don't have the capacity

00:02:21.000 to do that. We are fallible, finite human beings. We have a threshold of information that we can take

00:02:27.740 in. We have a limited capacity. And so we can only do so much and see so much and read so much before we

00:02:34.520 have to cut ourselves off and say, okay, I've had my limit of information for the day. Here's what I'm

00:02:40.140 going to do with this information. Here's how I care about this information. Here's where it falls

00:02:44.500 on my list of priorities. And then you kind of have to just cut yourself off. And we have to pay

00:02:50.920 attention to the people that God has placed right in front of us, the spheres that God has placed us in

00:02:56.120 to occupy. Our goal in life is to glorify God in everything that we think, say, and do. We can't

00:03:03.780 focus on what's going to happen tomorrow or in 10 years from now. We can do what we can to prepare

00:03:08.700 for those things, but we can't obsess over them because they make us feel like we have to be God

00:03:13.200 and we are not. And so Dr. Thacker is going to walk us through how we can kind of approach this very

00:03:24.140 anxiety-ridden world that we live in. And I'm super excited about that. I'm super excited for you to be

00:03:33.220 able to listen to this conversation, always trying to give you guys kind of a balance of,

00:03:39.340 okay, here's what's going on in the world. And also, here's the bigger picture. Here's what we

00:03:44.100 have to remember as Christians. So that's what this is today. And then tomorrow, we're probably

00:03:49.800 going to talk about Afghanistan, unless there's something else that you guys want me to talk

00:03:55.060 about. We're going to talk about everything that's going on there. I've really been wanting

00:03:58.960 to talk about that, but there's so much information that I've been trying to gather. We might have a

00:04:05.420 guest for that, or it might just be me kind of telling you the news and analyzing it. Then Thursday,

00:04:09.960 if you guys want to have a theological subject, then we can talk about theology or if there's another

00:04:16.460 news topic. Also, oh, I've almost forgotten to tell you guys this. So we are going to start to do

00:04:21.480 something really fun. We are going to start to take voicemails from you guys. And I have to pull

00:04:32.260 up the voicemail number on my phone. So you guys can leave me a voicemail and I will listen to it.

00:04:42.320 And if it's a good question or if it's whatever we might be calling for. So for example, we might call

00:04:48.600 for like, would you rathers to do like a fun segment, or we might call for like an embarrassing

00:04:53.860 story or something like that to do a fun segment, or we might call for some kind of like compelling

00:05:00.020 story about how you changed your school board's minds on a particular issue, or you might just have

00:05:06.500 a question. And so you can use this phone number to leave a voicemail for us and only leave a voicemail

00:05:13.320 if you are okay with that voicemail being played on the show. We'll tell you before it gets played,

00:05:19.100 probably if we have the capacity to do that. But we might not. I don't know. So don't leave a message

00:05:28.800 unless you're okay with the message being public. So, you know, like don't put your address in there.

00:05:33.700 Don't say your name if you don't want your name to become public. So I'm going to tell you the phone

00:05:39.220 number right now. It is 682-503-1369. That's 682-503-1369. You can call that number, you can

00:05:50.420 leave us a voicemail, and we'll be doing these different segments. And so I'll be asking

00:05:57.800 specifically, if you have a question about this, leave me a voicemail and we might play it on the

00:06:02.120 show. So there might be different categories. So that's super fun. Also, if you love the show,

00:06:06.160 please leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. That would mean a whole lot to us. Subscribe on

00:06:12.500 YouTube if you haven't done that already. And we're getting our little like YouTube plaque,

00:06:18.660 like this little silver award thing for hitting 100,000 subscribers a long time ago. So that's

00:06:25.400 fun. Maybe we'll open the box on here. Also, one more thing. If you have any ideas for what we should

00:06:32.860 do for our 500th episode, which is coming up very soon, let me know. Let me know what you would like

00:06:40.560 to do. Maybe we'll take voicemails for that as well. Andy, thank you so much for joining us. Can

00:06:50.480 you tell everyone who you are and what you do? Yeah, I'm Andy Thacker, and I'm an assistant professor

00:06:55.280 in the biblical counseling department at Dallas Theological Seminary. And I'm a licensed

00:06:59.580 professional counselor and a registered play therapist. I'm sure that you've got a full plate

00:07:05.440 right now. You probably always do, but especially in the past year and a half, people have a lot of

00:07:10.700 needs and a lot of questions about mental health that maybe they just hadn't thought about before.

00:07:15.360 People have gone through loss, loss of life, loss of jobs. They've seen their kids either with special

00:07:22.940 needs or not kind of fall behind because of lack of resources and services and things like that.

00:07:28.880 So people are, they're struggling. Some people are struggling to hang on. A lot of people are

00:07:34.560 struggling with anxiety about what the world looks like, where we're going to go. Have you seen that?

00:07:40.400 Like, have you seen an increase in need for mental health services over the past year and a half?

00:07:45.720 Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody is struggling and in a way that we've never struggled before.

00:07:50.820 Yeah.

00:07:51.120 So most, all of my colleagues that I work with are, have waiting lists and we're all hearing from people that,

00:07:58.880 want to go to counseling or have questions about how to navigate such a difficult time.

00:08:03.240 Yeah. And for people who maybe they can't afford to see a therapist or they're scared or whatever,

00:08:12.160 what would be your recommendation for people who find themselves struggling, but they don't even know

00:08:17.220 where to start? And even if they do, maybe they, you know, they just can't access those resources.

00:08:22.220 Yeah. That's a great question. So part of it is, I think, understanding ourselves and understanding

00:08:28.700 how God created us, that we have a certain level of capacity and sometimes that capacity shifts and

00:08:35.680 ebbs and flows. And right now we all have diminished capacity because we're, we have extra things on our

00:08:42.120 plate. We're maybe doing different things with schooling. We're working from home. And so part of it is

00:08:47.300 understanding that as capacity decreases, our self-care has to increase. And so understanding

00:08:52.800 what is life giving to us and what actually helps us thrive. So I always go back to the acronym HALT,

00:09:00.880 hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Those are four pillars of our wellbeing. So how are you doing with

00:09:06.940 nutrition? Are you getting adequate nutrients in your diet? Are you eating enough? Are you eating

00:09:13.120 the right amounts of food? Angry? How are you doing with your emotions? Are you allowing yourself time

00:09:19.780 to process those? Do you have an outlet? Do you have a good friend that you can share with, a spouse,

00:09:25.600 parents, whoever that is? Lonely, we're creative for connection. So God made us to be in relationship

00:09:32.380 with other people. And when we don't have access to that, we really struggle. And the pandemic has caused

00:09:38.640 us to really have to reassess how we connect with people because of restrictions that we live under

00:09:43.920 now. So people tend to isolate when they struggle. And that's the time we need resources in our

00:09:51.800 community the most. So reaching out with friends, going on walks. If you can't get together in person,

00:09:58.780 can you have, can you FaceTime? Can you have a phone call? Just something to be connecting with other

00:10:04.000 people and then tired. So fatigue is a big thing. And when we are so stressed and under extra pressure,

00:10:10.320 it makes us more tired. So we need to give more time to sleep. And it's challenging because there's

00:10:16.740 more on our plates, but we really have to up our game of taking good care of ourselves.

00:10:21.980 Yeah. And there are a couple of questions I have within that. One of them is, can you differentiate

00:10:26.520 between the self-care that seems to be in the non-Christian world, sometimes synonymous with

00:10:35.840 selfishness? The very, I think, unhelpful post that we maybe see on influencers' pages about cutting

00:10:45.000 people out of your life as soon as they don't serve you or they don't make you happy or doing

00:10:51.180 whatever makes you happy, no matter how it affects other people, no matter the cost versus what it

00:10:57.380 looks like to take care of yourself in a biblical way. Because I think, you know, there is a lot of

00:11:04.240 confusion around that. And as Christians, we want to make sure that we are differentiating between those

00:11:11.840 things in a way that is gospel-driven. So can you explain that?

00:11:16.600 Yeah. So I have lots of thoughts there. So I always like to look back at the life of Christ

00:11:21.920 when he was on earth and look at how he lived because he was fully God and fully man at the

00:11:27.040 same time. So he had all of the physical experiences that we have minus the sin. So he had to sleep.

00:11:36.180 And there were lots of times where we, probably a lot more than this, but the times that we do see

00:11:41.420 in scripture that are recorded, that he was off by himself, one, sleeping and attending to his

00:11:47.440 physical need and also spending time with his heavenly father. So we can look at that and know

00:11:52.980 that that is absolutely going to be something that's Christ-like is that we have to, we're going to have

00:11:58.960 to do that. We don't have an option.

00:12:00.860 Right.

00:12:00.960 But he also, and this is something that actually my boss at DTS taught me, he said, you know,

00:12:08.500 Andy, Jesus didn't heal everyone he came into contact with. And he, we don't know why, and we

00:12:14.740 don't know who necessarily he didn't heal. But the principle behind that for us is that we're not called

00:12:20.660 to help everybody all the time. Now we are called to steward our resources well. And there are times

00:12:27.640 where we, we do have to give out of an abundance or give out of our overflow of our heart and love

00:12:34.120 on others well. And that means, you know, maybe we, we do something a little bit more for someone

00:12:40.400 that, and we're fighting that selfishness, but sometimes it means that it's not our role to step

00:12:46.260 in and help others. So that's a big part of it that I think about as well. Also, I think,

00:12:53.960 I think kind of that, um, cancel culture, like cutting people out of your life. There is a time

00:13:00.780 where people can be dangerous and toxic, but I think it's really useful to learn how to live

00:13:06.280 in relationship with people that you don't always agree with. Yeah. Because I mean, if,

00:13:11.120 if my husband and I stopped being in relationship every time we disagreed on something, we wouldn't

00:13:16.340 be married anymore. Yeah. And I don't think that's how God intended based on what I see in scripture.

00:13:21.080 Right. Um, and so part of it is when we practice being in relationship with people that we don't

00:13:27.840 always see eye to eye with, we get to practice generosity and grace and mercy and, and see what

00:13:35.740 it's like to, to have to navigate those difficult waters of, okay, I see this differently than you do,

00:13:42.600 but I can still love you because you are, you're also an image bearer. Um, so I think there's,

00:13:49.020 there's a balance to that. And again, there are people that are not going to be safe. They're not

00:13:53.480 going to be, um, good for us. And so we do have to set up appropriate boundaries with certain people,

00:13:59.840 but the people that disagree, that's just a given. And I think now we're seeing that a lot more because

00:14:06.580 even within families, this is something that I'm seeing in the literature and hearing from a lot of

00:14:11.300 people is, there's so much contention in families because people disagree on politics or whatever,

00:14:18.600 everything, politics, vaccines, masking. Um, you know, it goes beyond like, where do we spend

00:14:25.100 Thanksgiving and Christmas? Now it's just gotten really heated. So being able to practice, okay,

00:14:29.920 how can we still be generous with each other and maybe still hold to our values, but navigate,

00:14:37.220 how can we still be in relationship? And sometimes that means we have to give a little bit and we

00:14:41.980 have to be flexible and, and allow other people to, um, to maybe get more of our time or less of our

00:14:51.580 time. And I have more questions about that relationship piece, but going back to what you

00:14:56.980 were saying about the importance of rest, the importance of doing things that I think you used

00:15:03.020 to the word life-giving that are refreshing to us. You're saying that, um, it's part of as Christians

00:15:10.080 reflecting the life of Christ who we see hungered and, and, uh, thirsted for water and he met his

00:15:17.200 own needs. He had to rest. He had to sleep. Um, and I also think of the fact that we are made in the

00:15:23.360 image of God. And even though God himself doesn't actually need rest, he did choose to rest on the

00:15:28.780 seventh day, almost to just set that example for us that God worked. Um, and even though he doesn't,

00:15:35.920 um, you know, he doesn't expend energy in the same way that we do as finite beings, he still rested

00:15:42.440 on that seventh day and he created us to need that as well. And so I just encourage people when they're

00:15:49.900 maybe scared of, Oh, you know, should I take a break or is that just selfish? Well, to think about,

00:15:55.660 okay, well, am I resting in a way that God made me to need rest? Because he did, he made us to need

00:16:02.680 leisure. He made us to need pleasure. He made us to need rest and sleep and all of those things.

00:16:08.320 Um, so I do think it's important for Christians to not conflate what God made us to need with

00:16:13.960 selfishness, um, and the narcissism that I do think that we sometimes see in the secular 0.77

00:16:19.240 self self so-called self love, um, world. And then going into what you said about relationships and

00:16:27.520 setting, you know, healthy boundaries without just cutting everyone out of your life that doesn't

00:16:32.400 agree with you. I'd love to hear you talk more about that because right now I just see a lack of

00:16:38.740 true deep connection. Like even within the church, even if you're someone who goes to Sunday school

00:16:44.240 and you feel like you have people around you, I think a lot of people feel, and I felt like this

00:16:50.980 in the past year and a half, that's outside of my family. Sometimes it feels like I'm lacking true,

00:16:57.140 deep, consistent connection with, um, you know, with people I go to church with and things like that.

00:17:04.020 So can you talk about that? I don't even really know what my question is, but I'm sure other people

00:17:08.460 feel the same way. Like, do you see that lack of genuine connection and how do you think it's affecting

00:17:13.040 people? Well, I think some people, cause we're all different. We all have different personalities

00:17:18.340 and temperament. So I think about like, my husband is a pursuer. I'm not necessarily a pursuer. I'm very

00:17:24.820 receptive and willing, but he's, he is a person that takes people to coffee and to lunch. And after a

00:17:32.660 hard year, he's been exhausted. And he told me the other day, he was like, I'm just tired of pursuing.

00:17:36.960 I think a lot of people who were accustomed to being pursuers and that's their personality,

00:17:41.940 they're just worn out. And so the rest of us who are more receivers, if we have energy,

00:17:48.720 this is a great time to step up. I think sometimes too, we're so afraid of maybe someone not reciprocating

00:17:56.280 or of rejection that it keeps us from putting ourselves out there. And so I, I always try to

00:18:03.020 remind myself and remind other people that it feels really good when someone wants to spend time with

00:18:09.280 you. Like when someone pursues you, that feels really nice. And so maybe put yourself out there

00:18:14.160 and say, Hey, I, I would love to just take you to coffee or I'd love to go walk with you. I spend a

00:18:19.700 lot of time walking with friends. Cause that just seems like when kill two birds with one stone,

00:18:23.740 we're exercising, we're spending time together. Um, so if you're more accustomed to being on the

00:18:30.040 receiving end and that's not your personality, maybe push yourself a little bit and, and pursue some

00:18:35.580 people. If you're more exhausted and, and you're having a hard time rallying to really continue in

00:18:42.500 that pattern of pursuing, maybe just picking one person or being vulnerable enough to say, Hey,

00:18:47.980 I'm just really struggling. And I, I just, I want to spend time with you. I want to pursue this

00:18:53.280 relationship, but I'm really hurting. Could you just check in on me once a week? Um, I also,

00:18:59.640 I, I saw something somewhere along the way that it says, check in on your strong friends. They're

00:19:05.300 struggling too. I think the people that either process grief differently and we don't see it on

00:19:10.980 the outside or they're, you know, the people that are high capacity, we forget that they're struggling

00:19:15.940 too. And so even checking on them. And, um, I make it a point that if, if the Lord brings someone to

00:19:23.420 mind, then there's an intention of why they came to my mind. And so I'll send a text or a Marco

00:19:29.540 Polo and say, Hey, I was just, I was thinking about you. I don't know what your day is like,

00:19:33.160 but I want you to know that I just said a prayer for you. Um, and so some of it's that those tiny

00:19:39.500 connections, I think too, because this season is so fraught with anxiety, anxiety wears us down and

00:19:46.640 makes us exhausted emotionally and physically. So we don't have as much capacity. Um, so being able

00:19:54.380 to maybe not think on a big scale of, um, you know, I want to have this family over and we're

00:20:00.320 going to get together and want to get the kids together. Little things like texts, FaceTime,

00:20:05.940 small things are just as meaningful as big connections.

00:20:09.200 Right. Right. And I think also maybe being the one to dig deeper in a relationship. Like if you've

00:20:17.740 had a friendship with someone that has kind of remained superficial for a long time, but you're

00:20:22.640 longing for some kind of deeper, deeper friendship, one where you're maybe encouraging one another

00:20:29.180 spiritually, like you said, or really talking about the real things that you're struggling with,

00:20:33.640 having the courage to like be the person to dig deeper can be hard because even if you know,

00:20:39.280 like you like each other as friends, you're like, Oh, does this person, does, do they really want to

00:20:43.240 talk, talk to me about that kind of thing? Or maybe they think I'm prying. Um, and, and so I

00:20:49.660 think that takes also a little bit of courage to not just to be the vulnerable person, but to seek

00:20:56.460 vulnerability and other people, because I mean, that's what vulnerable means. Like you're allowing

00:21:01.340 yourself the possibility of becoming hurt. Um, and I think a lot of people, I don't know if social

00:21:07.040 media has added to this, which is funny because we have so much of our life on display and yet it seems

00:21:12.640 like we're scared of actual authenticity at the same time. Is that something that you've, that

00:21:18.720 you've noticed? Absolutely. Yeah. I think social media and technology is great, but it has a dark

00:21:25.080 side just like anything. And part of the dark side is we can put stuff out there. And then I think a lot

00:21:32.060 of times we put stuff out on social media because we want connection, but that's not going to give us

00:21:37.980 probably the connection we truly want because we were created to connect like this face to face,

00:21:43.680 physically being able to communicate with each other. Also we're putting stuff out there. And I

00:21:50.620 think we're expecting people to respond in one way. And then if they respond in a way that doesn't

00:21:56.620 meet our expectations, we have this disappointment, but it's not happening in real time so that we can,

00:22:02.400 we can stop and say like, Hey, when you said that, that really hurt my feelings. So like with these

00:22:08.760 interpersonal connections, whether it's by phone or physically being in each other's presence,

00:22:14.720 we can say things like, Hey, let's back up. Like when you said this, right, that really hurts. And I

00:22:22.020 don't think you meant it this way, but I just need you to know that. And so social media doesn't give us

00:22:26.980 that opportunity. And I think we use it a lot of times to try to short circuit or get that need met

00:22:34.620 and it ends up doing more damage than good. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's probably true.

00:22:40.280 And going back to what you said about anxiety, when I asked people on Instagram, okay, what would you

00:22:47.420 ask, uh, you know, a mental health professional, if you, if you had them in front of you and almost

00:22:54.040 every question was about anxiety, they're anxious about a variety of things. They're anxious about

00:22:58.660 the future. They're anxious about what's going on right now with all the different political

00:23:02.880 disagreements that are here and coming down the pipeline for a whole host of reasons. People are

00:23:08.820 anxious. Um, what do you, what do you know about anxiety, how the brain processes anxiety? What is it

00:23:16.560 and what can people do to not be consumed by it? Yeah. So, well, one thing to understand about

00:23:24.600 the brain is the part of our brain that's responsible for linear logical processes that

00:23:30.760 helps us. Um, we know a kid's developing when they start to talk because their left side of their brain

00:23:36.300 is starting to come online and it helps us know how to do things like follow a recipe, change a flat

00:23:42.060 tire. It is also the part of the brain that does not like ambiguity and uncertainty. And so ambiguity

00:23:48.860 and uncertainty breed anxiety. And we were never created to live in that level of uncertainty for

00:23:56.420 a prolonged period of time. So God, how he made our bodies is just, it's perfect. It's amazing. And

00:24:03.940 he created us so that when we sense imminent threat or imminent danger, um, even if it's real or

00:24:11.000 perceived, our bodies will go into a process where, where we will protect ourselves, we will do

00:24:16.380 everything we need to do to stay safe. And in that moment, it all makes sense. And it's all really

00:24:22.720 adaptive. That was meant to be acute. It was never meant to be a chronic state. We have long passed

00:24:29.820 the acute stage. Um, it's kind of like thinking back when we thought this was all going to be over by

00:24:34.120 Easter. That was our acute stage and we passed it a long time ago. Right. Now we're in this chronic

00:24:40.160 stage and we grasp at anything that will help us diminish that uncertainty so that it diminishes

00:24:47.240 our anxiety. I always think of anxiety as it's like the hamster on the wheel in your brain. You just

00:24:52.580 can't get it to stop. Um, so what the left side of the brain will do to diminish that is we will,

00:24:59.960 we'll fill in the blanks of a story we don't understand. And kids do this. We do this regardless

00:25:05.440 of age. This is why when anybody dies, the first question we ask is, well, how like there's gotta

00:25:11.020 be a good reason. If there's not a good reason, that's even worse. Um, and so we subconsciously

00:25:17.500 and consciously do this. We will plug in answers to those blanks of, you know, why, well, why can't I

00:25:25.900 go to school without wearing a mask? Or why, why did my best friend die? Or why did this happen?

00:25:32.260 And we usually plug in false answers because that's, it's easier to have something that's not

00:25:38.420 true than to live in the ambiguity and the anxiety. And so I think it's really helpful because we are,

00:25:45.160 we're meaning making creatures and we're storytellers. And, and we see that God communicates

00:25:51.180 through us to us through story. That's what scripture is. It's all couched in a narrative.

00:25:56.680 And so part of what can be helpful with easing anxiety is to tell our stories. And that's that

00:26:02.200 vulnerable, vulnerability piece you talked about with friends is just kind of putting yourself out

00:26:06.300 there and being able to tell your story of loss and say, you know, this is what it felt like when

00:26:12.420 this happened and, and then this happened. And that really helps us at times ease the anxiety.

00:26:18.020 If we can talk about it, things get bigger, the longer they stay in our head. Just even,

00:26:24.000 you know, some therapies talk about the talking cure that even just talking helps you feel better.

00:26:29.920 So one is being able to tell your story. And two, especially with kids and adolescents,

00:26:35.260 I think it's really helpful for parents or anybody who is shepherding a child's heart to help them tell

00:26:42.480 their story or tell the story of the circumstances. So we do a lot in, in our house of talking about

00:26:49.380 what all this is and what all this means so that we can help monitor what, how our kids write this

00:26:56.340 narrative. And we can hopefully diminish any false truths or false narratives and fill that in.

00:27:03.400 And, and, and sometimes the truth is hard. Like, um, one of the things we've never done is we've

00:27:09.560 never wanted to lie to our kids and, and say that like, I can't assure that I'm not going to die

00:27:15.340 tomorrow. But what I can assure them of is I have a really good plan in place for them. And so we talk

00:27:21.980 through that. And, um, our older two kids have been through seasons where they've been really anxious

00:27:27.220 at times about what would happen to us because we've exposed them to grief and loss. Um, but we,

00:27:33.940 we talk through our story of, okay, so here's our plan. If something happens to mom or dad,

00:27:38.700 here's what's going to happen. And here's, who's going to take care of you. And you know,

00:27:43.000 your daddy sells life insurance, so you're going to be just fine. Um, because we're worth more dead

00:27:47.960 than alive, but we just talk through it, talking through what it means. So, um, you know,

00:27:54.540 things are changing daily. So that makes it kind of hard for us to keep up with what,

00:27:58.560 what's happening, but talking through with yourself and with your spouse and your friends and your kids,

00:28:04.920 when you start school, this is what you can expect. So I think just talking around what's happening

00:28:11.440 and trying to fill in those blanks accurately can ease a lot of anxiety. Um, also other things we've,

00:28:19.040 this seems counterintuitive, but what research shows is when we give a little attention to what

00:28:26.800 we're feeling, especially anxiety and, and say, you know, I wonder, I'll ask, um, clients or my kids,

00:28:33.440 I'll say, you know, you tell me that you're feeling really anxious. Tell me where you notice that feeling

00:28:38.560 most in your body. And then let's give that some attention. So it's kind of like, um, you know,

00:28:45.920 some, some older schools of thought when a kid was throwing a fit, we ignore it and it'll stop.

00:28:51.180 Usually the kid just gets louder. That's how feelings are. If you ignore it, they just get

00:28:55.540 louder. A lot of times, if we will give it attention, it tends to kind of calm and soothe that.

00:29:02.000 So, um, for myself, when I'm having an anxious day, one, I reach out to someone who I'm close with.

00:29:09.180 So usually that's my husband because he's my best friend, or I'll call one of my best girlfriends

00:29:15.380 and say, Hey, this is just a rough day. And, and then I'll, I'll give that time to just kind of

00:29:24.340 release as I talk to them. If it's with my kids or one of my clients, I want to give them that time

00:29:31.420 and give that attention and, and say, you know, what's that like for you to feel anxious? When do

00:29:37.260 you notice it most during the day? So that's sometimes helpful too, is if we can pinpoint

00:29:41.400 when we feel the most anxious, sometimes there's strategies we can use or things we can do to

00:29:48.440 combat that. So sometimes it's around, um, so one of mine, one of my kids just gets really anxious

00:29:55.760 about the unknown, like most everybody, but it just shows up really verbally. And so when she's really

00:30:01.300 anxious and she's like, I, what's going to happen when this happens? I know she needs to go through

00:30:06.560 that story five or six times and she needs to know that she has resources to handle that. So we'll

00:30:12.700 talk through like, here's what's at your disposal. So if this happens, here's what you do. And if that

00:30:19.220 doesn't work, here's what you do. Um, and so it's, it's all about talking about those strategies.

00:30:24.760 Also, sometimes, um, we can look at with ourselves and with kids that maybe it's at the end of the day

00:30:31.580 where we feel most anxious. And at the end of the day, you're probably most tired. So maybe you need

00:30:36.220 to, um, back off of some activities that happen at that time of the day. Now, obviously like going

00:30:43.240 back to the selfishness piece, there are things I can't back off of being like, I'm choosing to give

00:30:48.300 up bedtime. You guys, good luck. Um, but I can say, you know, that's a really stressful time of day for

00:30:56.080 me. So I'm not going to plan to prep for my next class right before bedtime or right after bedtime,

00:31:02.760 because that's not going to be, be good for us. Um, so looking at what's happening, if it's a time

00:31:09.220 of day where someone's really hungry, maybe they need to have a snack during that time, or maybe that

00:31:14.420 child needs, um, a little more holding or comforting. You just want to look at what's going on surrounding

00:31:21.000 that because sometimes it gives you clues about things you can do to approach it. I also think

00:31:26.500 there's a time where we need to limit the amount of exposure we have to things that are stressful.

00:31:32.260 Now we can't, I think we need to be good consumers of information and news. And part of that is knowing

00:31:39.320 what is the threshold that we can healthily manage. So I remember, um, in the spring of 2020,

00:31:48.480 like I was just looking through Twitter way too much and Facebook and Instagram. And I was panicked

00:31:54.300 by the time I would lay down to go to bed and my heart was pounding. And so I knew that I needed to

00:31:59.240 stop doing that. So one of the things I, um, use is, uh, like a scripture prayer app. And so I started

00:32:07.200 doing that at the end of the day. And, and sometimes I'd listen to it. Sometimes I'd read it. So that the

00:32:13.880 last thing I heard was about God's faithfulness and goodness. Right. And it, it seems easy and

00:32:21.300 kind of cheesy, but it, it really is powerful. Yeah. Um, so making sure we're not exposing ourselves

00:32:28.480 to too much. I am going through a training and one of the, um, clinicians said this weekend,

00:32:34.020 we were really never designed to hear the news about the entire world. Right. We're designed to

00:32:40.660 take in the news of our community. Yeah. And so we're, I think it's important that we know these

00:32:47.960 things because we can pray for other people. We can, um, be actively involved in a good way,

00:32:53.980 but at times we do have to take a step back and know that. Right. Well, the news makes us feel,

00:33:01.520 and we talk about this on this podcast a lot, that it makes us feel like we have to be omniscient,

00:33:06.720 that we have to be omnipresent, that we have to be omnipotent. So we have to be everywhere,

00:33:10.800 know everything, care about everything, do something about everything, fix everything.

00:33:14.380 I certainly struggle with that. And that's part of, you know, my job is knowing what's going on in

00:33:19.340 the news, but it certainly does get overwhelming to bear that burden, especially when people are

00:33:24.520 thinking about what's the world going to look like for my kids. I have to do everything to make sure

00:33:28.960 that it ends up a certain way or doesn't end up a certain way. And the fact of the matter is,

00:33:33.200 is that we're not God. We're not everywhere. We can't care about everything. And it doesn't mean

00:33:38.540 that you lack compassion just because you don't have the capacity to care about everyone and

00:33:44.060 everything at once. God didn't make us to be able to do that. Anytime we go outside of God's design for

00:33:51.400 us or try to extend ourselves beyond our finite nature, we get really exhausted. And it's also

00:33:58.900 like super depressing because at the end of every day, you're like, oh, I wanted to fix all these

00:34:04.200 things. I didn't do anything to fix them. And I'm a failure. And it just kind of leads to this cycle,

00:34:10.580 I think, for a lot of people. So when people find themselves in that cycle, whether it's about,

00:34:16.060 you know, carrying the weight of the world because of the news, or whether it's just about feeling

00:34:19.720 lonely or whatever problem that they're dealing with that is making them in that anxious and kind

00:34:25.300 of depressive state, when they find themselves in that, and they just feel like, okay, I can't get

00:34:32.260 out. I feel like, you know, I've prayed, I've done all the things that I'm supposed to do

00:34:37.020 to make myself feel better. And they still just don't. What are some tools? What can they do to try

00:34:45.240 to lift themselves out of it? Or is it just kind of a waiting game for some people?

00:34:52.860 There is a certain threshold where professional help will be really necessary and needed. There

00:35:00.340 are resources. I know that therapy is expensive. But there are resources that are reduced rates

00:35:07.680 that work with people in their financial resources. Part of it, again, is diminishing the activities

00:35:20.300 that will drain us. When we're already drained, we need to cut back on those things. So it's okay.

00:35:27.940 I mean, just, you said it so beautifully that God never designed us to save the world because he

00:35:33.240 didn't design us as God. Yeah. We're humans. And he does that. Exactly. And so he has already

00:35:38.460 saved the world. So. And I think thinking about too, so this keeps coming to mind. A couple of

00:35:45.400 years ago, before we had kids, like I was fine. I was like, I'm going, you know, to live is Christ

00:35:52.340 and to die is gain. I was ready to leave this earth at any time. Once we had kids, they just really tied

00:35:57.560 me to this world because I love them. And I don't think anybody can do as good a job as my husband

00:36:03.360 and I can raising them. And so I was just panicked at the thought that one of us would die. And I

00:36:10.340 remember the Lord just kind of impressing upon me and saying, you know, Andy, that is so sweet and

00:36:16.760 tender of you that you love them so much. But I loved them first and I love them most.

00:36:22.080 And I will do what I see fit in their life and I will take care of them no matter what happens to

00:36:29.740 you. And so I think some of it is really looking at what is the truth that we're putting into our

00:36:35.760 minds as well. Yeah. So sometimes I think it's important to listen to what our body does tell

00:36:42.500 us because God created it very intelligently. And there are systems within us, within our brain

00:36:48.400 that signal that we're not doing okay and we need to pay attention to those. And at times we need to

00:36:53.980 be careful to what lies we could also be believing. The lies that might be that, you know, I have to do

00:37:01.020 everything or to slow down that means failure. Or if I don't serve on every committee at my kid's

00:37:07.200 school, then I'm not a good mom. We really need to assess what we're believing and what beliefs drive

00:37:13.460 what we're doing. Because sometimes we let that really take over. And that, that can really,

00:37:19.460 really make us feel poorly. There are seasons where we need to sit back and we need to allow

00:37:27.080 others to minister to us and to recognize that we just don't have all the capacity that we have at

00:37:34.740 other seasons. There will be another time and place where our capacity will increase. This just isn't that

00:37:40.420 time. And so paying attention to those basic daily living skills. Are you sleeping enough? Adults

00:37:47.260 need seven to nine hours of sleep every night. And we are overwhelmingly sleep deprived as, as a nation

00:37:55.180 for sure. Again, nutrition is, is a big deal. Like when we feel anxious and depressed, we tend to either

00:38:02.220 overeat or undereat. So we need to pay attention to what's happening, happening there. And then at times

00:38:10.000 we do need to know that it's okay to seek professional help. And at times even medication

00:38:15.040 can be useful. Having a referral to see a physician that, that may say, you know, medication is not going

00:38:22.880 to get rid of the stress and it's not going to help someone. It's not going to do away with the trauma

00:38:29.580 or the grief, but it can give us the capacity to process those things well. Right. And can you talk

00:38:36.380 to parents who might have a teen who is struggling specifically because of the past year and a half?

00:38:43.260 Maybe they were isolated for a long period of time. Maybe even, you know, just the lack of

00:38:48.720 normalcy, no matter someone's stance on masks or virtual learning or all of that, the lack of normalcy,

00:38:56.640 even if you live in an area that is pretty normal, just seeing how things aren't the same as they were in

00:39:01.860 2019. Like that wears on people. I would imagine that it especially wears on teenagers who, you know,

00:39:08.520 without their say-so, their entire world and young kids too, their entire world has been turned

00:39:13.780 upside down. A lot of kids are really struggling. They're more online than they were even before all

00:39:19.880 of this. And parents see that they're struggling. Maybe they don't have access to a counselor. I know

00:39:28.020 of one woman who messaged me who said, I know my daughter needs to see a counselor, but everywhere

00:39:33.080 has waiting lists right now. What do I do? So speak to that mom or dad who just so badly wants to get

00:39:40.340 their kid out of this rut that they're in. They just can sense that they're depressed and anxious

00:39:45.280 and all of that carrying the weight of the world. What does that parent do? How do they help their

00:39:49.720 child? Yeah. So part of it is understanding what's normative adolescent development. So neurologically,

00:39:56.260 our brains don't finish forming until about 25. So we're basically teenagers until our mid-20s.

00:40:02.400 So in that process of the brain changing and forming, adolescence is a huge time of brain

00:40:09.540 development. And it's kind of like being under construction when there's road work. And it's

00:40:17.560 going to be great once it's done, but it is a huge disaster in the moment. And so what it causes teens

00:40:23.500 to do is that's why we see the already emotional irregularity or the ups and downs, which is really

00:40:29.900 common in adolescence. We can see black and white thinking, although teenagers cognitively should be

00:40:35.680 kind of shifting to where they can do some abstract thinking, but it's not a light switch. It doesn't just

00:40:41.200 flip right on and flip right off. It's kind of an oscillating back and forth until they can fully get

00:40:47.700 there. Also, they're going to need a lot more sleep. And we see that their sleep habits change.

00:40:55.100 So their circadian rhythm shifts in children and in adults. Our circadian rhythm is, we're up earlier

00:41:03.440 in the morning, six to seven, and our brains tend to shut off about nine to 10. In adolescence, that

00:41:10.660 shifts entirely. And it's really inconvenient because the world doesn't shift really. Adolescents,

00:41:16.300 they don't really kind of wake up, come online until about nine or 10 in the morning. And they're up

00:41:21.540 until about 12 to two at night, potentially. So, and I think it's the recommended is like 11 hours of

00:41:29.600 sleep a night for adolescents. Wow. Yeah. Which I'm sure most are not getting, not during the week

00:41:34.160 anyway, maybe on Saturdays, but. Right, right. And the thing that I see the most, and I saw this before the

00:41:40.040 pandemic in my practice, kids and adolescents are just over-programmed. They have way too much on

00:41:46.200 their plate. More is not better. You're talking about school, extracurriculars, not even just

00:41:51.340 what they're seeing, not just social media and things like that. Right. So that was before the

00:41:55.380 pandemic. Yeah. So they are like, this is just at an extra heaping of stress. So sometimes as parents,

00:42:03.660 we really need to look at just the basics of their schedule. Now that's challenging during the season

00:42:11.160 because if they're going to school online, which is not my favorite because they need that, that social

00:42:18.680 interaction, online learning is way more exhausting. So if they're online, that's taking more of their

00:42:24.920 psychological and emotional and physical resources. They do need those extracurriculars to connect with

00:42:32.260 their peers. And so again, more isn't better though. So you want to look at, are they getting enough

00:42:39.020 social contact with friends? Um, so maybe, uh, as a parent that looks like they need to, they need to

00:42:47.920 be going to their, um, extracurricular in person, or maybe they need to add something if they're not

00:42:54.560 doing anything. Um, they don't need to be at home all day, especially if they're not going to school in

00:43:00.780 person. So looking at the right balance of activities, is it too much or is it too little? We're looking for

00:43:07.680 the just right fit. If they were tired before the pandemic already because they're over-programmed,

00:43:14.560 they need to way cut back. Again, more is not better. Um, somewhere along the way, we've bought

00:43:20.460 into this lie that if our kids don't have all the right experiences, they're not going to be well

00:43:24.100 functioning adults. That's not true. So we're, we didn't grow up in that, that era and we're,

00:43:31.860 we're okay. I mean, for the most part, we're at least functioning and have pain jobs. Um,

00:43:37.300 so we don't need to buy into that lie that they need to be over-programmed also with teenagers

00:43:43.340 because they do, um, need that sleep. And as their brains are changing, they sense, um, there was a

00:43:51.860 study that looked at adolescents. They tend to see a neutral face as aggressive. So whereas kids and

00:43:59.280 adults see a neutral face as neutral. And part of that is just to ready them to launch so that

00:44:05.100 they're accustomed to looking out for threat because they're about to be out on their own.

00:44:10.100 Um, so there can be a lot of miscommunication between parents and teens because teens feel like

00:44:16.500 their parents are angry because their, their brains are perceiving an angry face when it's neutral.

00:44:21.960 And so parents just understanding, whoa, you're under construction and it's going to be great.

00:44:27.400 You just need a lot more help during this season. Yeah. Also kids during adolescence are going to

00:44:34.400 individuate. And during that individuation process, there's going to be this push pull of,

00:44:38.900 I need independence. And while teenagers do need increased independence, they also still need a

00:44:45.900 lot of scaffolding from their, their parents and from helping adults. And so one thing I would tell

00:44:51.520 that mom, there's a ton of waiting lists. Um, but there's also the mom. And so one thing I would say

00:44:58.840 is, Hey, when do you guys connect during the week? And not to add more to the mom's plate. Cause I know

00:45:03.860 she's probably exhausted and doing the best she can with what she has, but maybe even saying, Hey,

00:45:09.060 would you, um, would you want to go for a walk with me? Or would you want to, um, you know,

00:45:15.500 I'm going to work outside in the yard or I'm going to go to the grocery store looking for times to

00:45:21.300 increase that connection. And it doesn't have to be this big, like, Hey, let's have a heart to heart

00:45:26.480 and talk about where you're suffering, but Hey, let's just be side to side and do life together.

00:45:32.240 I'm a huge believer too, in physical touch. So attachment, um, and attachment research is the

00:45:39.440 psychological word for what God calls relationship in the Bible. And we know from the very beginning

00:45:45.660 of Genesis that God created us for connection, part of connection and healthy attachment is positive

00:45:51.860 touch. And we focus a lot on that in infancy. So when we talk about, you know, the first thing we

00:45:57.760 want to do when a baby is born is we want them skin to skin with their parent. And we want to have a

00:46:04.000 lot of that good positive touch because that, that fuels that attachment. Attachment helps us navigate

00:46:10.960 the storms of life. It helps us know that we're not alone. It regulates our emotionality. It regulates

00:46:17.320 our heart rate. It's kind of crazy. All the things that attachment does, it's just as important for

00:46:22.760 adolescence. And we forget that. Yeah. So even as, um, and you know, like I have, my kids are still

00:46:29.900 relatively young and small and as they grow it, I'll have to consciously remember, like I need to pull

00:46:37.500 my adolescent daughter close and I need to put my arm around her. And so there's so much that happens

00:46:44.420 with positive touch. Endorphins are released in our brain. It builds our connectedness. And so I would

00:46:50.660 encourage parents increase the amount of time that you are physically giving that attachment touch to

00:46:56.900 your kid. Um, one thing, again, I love technology, but it can be our biggest enemy. I see so much with

00:47:05.480 parents and families. We're so connected to our device that we're not, we're not giving good eye to eye

00:47:12.280 contact. So that's another building block. When we look at that infancy attachment relationship with

00:47:17.700 little babies, um, little babies just suck us in. They're cute. And so we do what's called mutual gazing and

00:47:23.720 mutual gazing is when we're building attachment, you know, you totally get it. Oh yeah. Like

00:47:28.400 this morning when I'm just like staring. Yeah. That makes sense for us when they're a little bitty

00:47:34.100 and they're cute. They're, they're cuter when they're little than they're when they're big

00:47:37.880 adolescents. But one of the things that we can remember to do is like when we're talking to

00:47:43.700 really anyone, but especially our kids put down our devices. And like, I'm talking to myself here that,

00:47:49.820 I mean, my kids will come up and ask me a question and I have to consciously say,

00:47:54.560 like, remind myself, Andy, put down your phone. I know. It's so hard. I do the same thing,

00:47:59.100 especially, you know, when they're, when they're babies, you do do that mutual gazing,

00:48:03.440 but also at the same time, like they're not doing anything. So sometimes I'm, you know,

00:48:08.320 on my phone when they're just laying there and I'm like, my phone is like, you know, I mean,

00:48:14.380 it's like blocking our connection and I have to consciously think too, okay, I don't, I don't want

00:48:20.820 that. I don't want that to be, you know, what characterizes me. Mom is always sucked into her 0.99

00:48:27.000 phone when I'm trying to connect with her or something like that. And so I definitely think

00:48:32.080 it's a conscious effort that has to be taken in all stages, but it seems like, you know, especially

00:48:37.440 teens too, because they need that example or else they're sucked into their phones. And can you talk

00:48:41.940 about that? Like the effect of social media on kids' brains and what you've seen? I know you said

00:48:47.540 there's a lot of benefits to social media. I feel the same way, even probably for teens, but I imagine

00:48:52.840 that it, that it affects kids' development. If your brain isn't fully functioning or fully,

00:48:58.420 fully developed yet, I should say, until you're 25, then I imagine the hormones that are released

00:49:04.720 and everything, the social interactions that are caused by social media probably have a big effect

00:49:09.860 on young people's development. So can you talk about what that is and how parents kind of approach

00:49:15.020 that in a healthy way with their kids? Yeah. Well, I mean, and you just said it, it starts with us

00:49:20.240 as parents that we monitor our own intake and we're modeling really well. Yeah. For teenagers. So as

00:49:28.360 adults with fully formed brains, I struggle on social media because I can see like someone may post

00:49:34.940 something that I don't agree with and I get frustrated or maybe I didn't get invited to

00:49:39.680 something and my feelings are hurt. Yeah. And I can think through those things and I can talk myself

00:49:44.540 through those and think, you know, it's okay. I don't have to be invited to everything or

00:49:48.820 they didn't do that maliciously. It's hard as an adult. It's astronomically difficult for a teenager.

00:49:55.720 Yeah. And so at times parents need to limit their kids' social media intake because they're just not,

00:50:04.240 you know, like we would limit their access to a car as a new driver. We want to limit their access

00:50:09.780 because they're kind of like a new driver with social media. And so I think instituting times,

00:50:15.700 so I'm a big believer in that it doesn't need to go to bed with them for a long time. Also just

00:50:21.860 because it messes with sleep and they really need sleep. Being able to talk through it if,

00:50:27.640 and to ask questions of your kids. There's great books. There's a great book called How to Talk

00:50:33.880 So Your Kids Will Listen, How to Listen So Your Kids Will Talk. And so asking questions like,

00:50:39.300 hey, you know, what did, what did you, what'd you see on, on social media today that stuck out to you?

00:50:44.520 So asking pointed questions, not to interrogate them, but just to understand them. Yeah. And to

00:50:51.300 say things like, well, did you see anything that really bothered you? Or did you see anything that

00:50:56.100 hurt your feelings? Did you see anything that inspired you? Was there something that you saw

00:51:00.920 that just made you feel really good? Yeah. Made you laugh. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

00:51:05.100 Exactly. And then I think, I think meal times need to be sacred. So I'm, I'm a big believer in that. And

00:51:12.900 I'm a big believer too. I want to be open to everybody's viewpoint, but that's something I'm

00:51:17.480 a stickler on. That's the hill I'm willing to die on is that there needs to be times as a family

00:51:22.860 where there are not any devices present. And so having a rule that when we go, when we go out to eat a

00:51:30.160 meal together, when we eat in our home, everybody's device is put up. It's a device free time.

00:51:38.360 So much research talks about the benefit of meal time or kids and adolescents. I think there's one

00:51:45.240 study that talks about how it's related to national merit scholars. Yeah. The amount of meals that you

00:51:50.040 have as a family. That's interesting. It is. And meals are really easy. So, I mean, it's, they're not

00:51:56.600 easy, but it's not, you don't have to pay for a professional. Yeah. You're all going to have to

00:52:01.880 eat. You just got to find some time to be together and it doesn't have to be every night. Um, so I

00:52:07.800 really think parents need to limit that for their teenagers and teach good stewardship, but also talk

00:52:14.420 about the risks. So a lot of times we put boundaries in place for our kids, but we don't talk about why.

00:52:21.020 And I think it's really important to talk about why. So, um, like around sex education with my kids,

00:52:27.120 I talk about, you know, this is what your dad and I believe because we love Jesus.

00:52:32.460 And this is what science says about what it would be like if you engaged in these activities and

00:52:39.280 here's all, not all the risk factors, but here's some significant risk factors. Um, so with social

00:52:45.220 media to say, you know, I noticed that when I'm on social media too much, it makes me really anxious.

00:52:52.380 And so I, I want you to learn how to navigate this well. And I don't want you to live with this

00:52:58.940 anxious state. And I want you to be good at this when you leave my home, because that's my job is to

00:53:03.460 help you launch. And so talking about why we don't want to do these things because kids want to know

00:53:10.100 why. And some kids are more inquisitive and they have to know, but why? Yeah. And so giving them

00:53:16.560 that answer of, well, you know, the more you do this, the more you shape your brain. So our brains

00:53:22.320 are use dependent. The more we do something, the more we increase the statistical likelihood that we

00:53:27.840 will continue to do that. So the more we, you know, fall asleep looking at our phones, the more likely

00:53:33.140 we will continue to do that. And it will shape us in certain ways. So what I'm hearing you say is that

00:53:39.860 teens, and I think of myself as a teen, and I thought that, you know, I didn't want attention

00:53:45.620 from my parents. I mean, I have a great relationship with my parents, but went through those teenage years

00:53:50.240 of being like, you know, just leave me alone. I just want to be alone in my room. Um, but the reality

00:53:55.500 is what you're saying is that kids still need healthy attention, healthy affection from their parents,

00:54:01.980 focus from their parents. Even if they act like they want to push their parents away,

00:54:06.780 they still need that connection and they need the parent to know that I care about the things that

00:54:12.980 you care about. I love what you said about even asking them about what they see on social media

00:54:18.280 so that in a way that doesn't make it seem like your parents are only trying to police what you're

00:54:25.660 seeing on social media, which I think is, it's an important role of a parent to do that because things

00:54:31.480 on, you know, on the internet are terrible and you don't want your kids to see it sometimes,

00:54:35.900 but also feeling like, Hey, I want to see that. Like, I want to see that funny video that you

00:54:42.880 thought was funny too. And maybe you as a parent don't think it's funny. Maybe you think it's like

00:54:46.160 totally dumb, but I could definitely see how that builds a level of like trust with your kid,

00:54:53.660 or maybe they show you something that you then think they do not need to be seeing that.

00:54:58.540 And that is though a way to talk about that and ask, you know, how does that,

00:55:03.620 how does that make you feel? Um, I think that sometimes parents, and I'm not a parent of a

00:55:09.200 teenager, obviously. Um, but I, I, it seems like from the parents I talked to and having been a

00:55:16.300 teenager, not that long ago, it seems like parents can kind of swing from, okay, I've got to control

00:55:22.060 every aspect of my child's life because I'm afraid of what's happening. I'm in for, I'm afraid of what

00:55:27.080 they're seeing on social media and what their friends are telling them. So I've got to only be

00:55:31.000 the police officer versus, well, I don't really think that I should have any true authority in my

00:55:37.280 kid's life. I'm just going to let them figure it out as they go. I'm just kind of hands off. I'll be

00:55:42.140 their buddy when they want me to be their buddy. Can you talk about maybe the struggle, if you've seen

00:55:47.280 that as well, swinging from one extreme to the next and the balance that kids really need, because I

00:55:52.800 imagine sometimes they do need a companion to talk to, but that's not the only job of the parent.

00:56:00.020 At the end of the day, it seems like kids also, whether they say so or not, need someone to say,

00:56:05.480 here are the boundaries, here are the rules. Absolutely. Yeah. So I love how you said that.

00:56:10.500 There's these two, um, polarizations and parents tend to swing one to the other, or maybe camp out on

00:56:18.420 one side and really we want balance. So one thing you said that is probably the utmost importance

00:56:23.540 is structure. So one of the reasons this season is so dysregulating for all of us is because we've

00:56:31.260 lost our normalcy and our structure. Yeah. And we don't know, I mean, from day to day, we don't know

00:56:36.520 what we're going to see on the news and we don't know what, I mean, what policies are going to change

00:56:41.960 or who knows, like, this is just a crazy time. Yeah. Um, but boundaries make us feel really safe.

00:56:48.580 And so for kids and teens and teens, especially because we think, oh, they're like little adults,

00:56:54.320 they'll be fine. They still need those boundary lines to help us to help them feel safe. So, um,

00:57:01.620 kids and teens may say they want to be in charge, but at the end of the day, they really don't. Yeah.

00:57:07.540 Like at the end of the day, I don't want to know that I'm the end of all this and I'm all

00:57:11.620 powerful because that is really scary. I take comfort in knowing that they're, that God will,

00:57:18.080 God's in charge. I don't understand it always, but he's going to take care of things. So teenagers 0.84

00:57:24.520 really need that because it gives them a sense of security. So they need to know where the boundary

00:57:29.340 lines are clearly. Um, also with the policing, our parenting is so shaped by our own stuff as kids

00:57:40.060 and our own stuff now. And so as, as parents, we, we do need to take a step back at times and make

00:57:46.600 sure we're not parenting from a place of fear that our kids are going to turn out like we did or

00:57:52.500 make the same mistakes that we did. They are their human. They're their own human beings and they're

00:57:59.120 going to make mistakes and we're going to fail as parents. So I think that's always a great starting

00:58:04.720 point to know that we can't do this person perfectly, excuse me. And that, um, we are

00:58:11.220 imperfect and our kids are going to struggle and we're going to fail. One of the things that, um,

00:58:18.560 I think is huge when it comes to hopefully not passing on our own fears or being so scared that

00:58:26.540 our kids repeat our mistakes is one being to being able to vocalize like, here's, here's what I'm

00:58:32.400 worried will happen to my kid to, um, your spouse or to a good friend, because a lot of times they

00:58:38.620 can speak truth into that and say, you know, like if that happens, that will be okay. Or that's very

00:58:47.500 unlikely that that would happen because they're totally not like you. They're a totally different

00:58:51.460 personality. Also looking at the long game. So like, what do you want your kids to be like when they

00:58:58.220 leave your house? And I always try to filter our parenting through that. What, what is the goal

00:59:03.920 that we're trying to reach? And through the saying, and it's not original to me, prepare your kid for

00:59:10.220 the path, not the path for your kid. We do so much parenting now, and there's so much parenting advice

00:59:17.520 that, um, steers parents to kind of clear the way for their kids. And the idea is that if it's easier,

00:59:24.540 then the kid will be likely to succeed. Our brains are created in such a way that we actually grow

00:59:30.480 through adversity. Now there is a line where it's too much adversity, but we need struggle

00:59:36.080 to be able to grow. I mean, it's that, um, you know, I'm sure every pastor has used the

00:59:41.260 illustration of the butterfly. And if it's in a cocoon and you cut it open, you actually end up

00:59:47.160 killing it because this, the strength needed to break out of the cocoon is the strength needed to

00:59:52.980 be able to fly. And so if someone does that for the butterfly, they die because they can't fly.

00:59:58.920 Kids need a certain level of struggle. And so I'm always looking at for my kids, what,

01:00:06.460 what is the natural struggle in this that they need to do on their own? And they need to be able

01:00:13.160 to function as a, as an adult outside of my home. And so trying to balance, am I trying to over

01:00:19.640 function for them because I'm afraid that they're not going to succeed or I'm afraid of what may

01:00:24.920 happen. And so if that's the case, then I need to pull back some. Um, or there are times that my kids

01:00:32.140 just need, they need more of my help to do things because they're not capable of, um, you know, doing,

01:00:39.520 uh, like I've, uh, was looking at something the other day and reading about how, um, high schoolers

01:00:48.160 that have just now launched into college, it's, it's much more difficult for them and they're having

01:00:54.240 more depression and anxiety and they're not able to maybe do all the things that a first year

01:00:59.080 freshman could do three years ago because they're living in such a difficult world. And so three years

01:01:05.940 ago, we would tell a parent to not do certain things because that would be overreaching or

01:01:10.260 over-functioning. Whereas now their kids maybe need a little more help in that scaffolding. 0.59

01:01:15.080 Yeah.

01:01:15.320 So some of it is balancing, am I over-functioning or do they really need the help that I could give them?

01:01:20.820 We talked about that, um, last week because a trend that I've noticed just anecdotally,

01:01:35.700 um, is teenagers being afraid to drive, which I thought was interesting. They don't want to get

01:01:41.540 their driver's license. Um, they're scared to go off to college. They're scared to live by themselves.

01:01:46.620 And now I'm a millennial and you know, the big joke a few years ago was millennials are still 1.00

01:01:51.140 living with their parents when they're 30 years old. Um, and I'm sure part of that was true for a 1.00

01:01:55.740 variety of reasons, but you know, as a millennial, I was super excited to get my driver's license.

01:02:01.120 I would have gotten my driver's license if my parents would have let me as early as possible.

01:02:05.700 Um, and independence was so exciting. I purposely went to a college far away that, you know, I didn't

01:02:10.960 know anyone there for the excitement of it, just for the thrill of it, just to do something

01:02:15.500 different. And I'm sure there are a lot of generation Z people that are still doing that 0.99

01:02:19.140 kind of thing. But in general, when I, you know, I pose this question, why does it seem like generation

01:02:24.580 Z is scared to drive? I got a lot of feedback from generation Z just saying I'm fearful, which I'm 0.99

01:02:31.380 like, okay, part, part of that is okay. I don't necessarily want more 16 year old drivers on the

01:02:36.820 road. And like, maybe some parents are okay with that. But I talked to one parent who was like,

01:02:41.160 okay, my kid has a job, and I'm tired of taking them to their job. They're 17 years old, I have to

01:02:47.100 force them to get their driver's license. That's crazy to me. I mean, what's behind that? Why are

01:02:51.680 they so much more fearful? Is it because of everything they see on social media? They just

01:02:56.160 have a fear and anxiety that I don't think that we had when I was a teenager about just very normal

01:03:02.740 kind of teenage young adult things. Absolutely. Rites of passage. Yeah, that I have no

01:03:08.380 conceptualization of not being able, like not wanting to get your driver's license. That was

01:03:12.240 the best part of adolescence. I think a lot of it is, and they've been called different things,

01:03:18.680 snowplow parents, lawnmower parents, that clearing the path for your kid makes them weaker. So there

01:03:26.620 is a natural amount of struggle that's needed. So and there are times that I feel a little anxious

01:03:32.240 about this. And I'm like, okay, that's my stuff. I got to live with that. My kids walk to school

01:03:37.060 by themselves. Now they're not walking miles. It's the end of our block. Our kids go out and

01:03:43.220 ride bikes by themselves. And we got a bobcat situation going on. So I'm like, watch out for

01:03:48.360 the bobcats. Don't get near it and pedal fast. But some of that is really good for them. So there's

01:03:55.260 a great book called Play by Dr. Stuart Brown. And he talks about how we have lost over the last

01:04:02.600 generation. So for Gen Zers, especially, and for later millennials, that we don't have as much

01:04:10.800 child directed play, where they can just go and free play and be able to learn how to problem solve.

01:04:18.540 Yeah, we have a lot of adult led play. And so those are your extracurricular activities,

01:04:23.880 which again, they're good in balance. But when they're overdone, what it creates is kids that don't

01:04:30.220 ever have to be directive at all. And so kids need more child directed play. Adolescents need 1.00

01:04:36.220 more child directed or adolescent directed play, so that parents are not coaching them on, okay,

01:04:42.140 now do this or do this. And so that fear of the parents, I think, is seeping down to the kids.

01:04:48.560 And they don't have the natural rights of passage of, you know, going to ride on your bike,

01:04:55.080 riding to a friend's house, walking to a friend's house. And now some people may live in an area

01:04:59.240 where that's not going to be wise. But there are things that kids need to be able to do on their

01:05:03.960 own where parents don't interfere. There was a study that Dr. Brown quoted where companies are

01:05:10.640 seeing because we're having millennials and Gen Zers who are graduating and in the workforce,

01:05:17.460 if they had a lot of adult led activities on their resume, they probably had a great resume,

01:05:24.020 but they didn't develop the necessary skill of problem solving. And so they make really poor

01:05:29.880 employees because they can't problem solve, you know, this happened. So how do I do this?

01:05:35.420 And so there's a balance there. Both are really important. But if we get too much of one and not

01:05:42.140 enough of another, we have problems. And then again, access to too much news. Again, we weren't created

01:05:51.300 to take in the news of the world. And our kids are taking those in. I also see a trend that for some

01:05:59.620 reason we have this, this thought process that if we, if we shelter our kids from all things that are

01:06:05.640 hard, then we'll keep them from being wounded or broken or messed up. I think it's actually better

01:06:13.440 to allow our kids to be exposed in certain titrated ways. So then we can talk about those things.

01:06:21.000 So like with grief and loss, I think it's really important that kids always have the opportunity to

01:06:28.260 participate in grief and loss rituals. Um, they need to practice what it's like to go to a funeral.

01:06:35.260 Um, they need to practice what it's like to, um, you know, to see a body in a casket because that will

01:06:43.180 not ruin them. But the anxiety of not knowing what that's like can be way overwhelming. Also talking

01:06:50.960 about difficult things that are in the media. So in our house, we talk about all the hot topics.

01:06:56.660 We talk about sex. We talk about, um, homosexuality. We talk about transgender. We 0.97

01:07:02.480 talk about politics. We talk about the pandemic and we, we do talk in titrated ways. We don't

01:07:08.800 expose them to everything. Right. But I want them to know that, that one, I'm capable of having

01:07:14.440 hard conversations because kids and adolescents intuitively know what their parents can and

01:07:19.420 cannot handle. And they won't take hard things to them that they know they can't handle.

01:07:23.440 Two, I want to be able to speak in what, what my value system is. Right. And I want to unpack

01:07:30.000 those things of, you know, this is what your daddy and I believe and we believe it because

01:07:34.840 of this. And it's based on our, our biblical worldview. And so I think it's useful to, to

01:07:41.900 talk about things where somewhere along the way we thought that if we expose them to stuff,

01:07:47.280 to anything, then it would ruin them. Yeah. But really talking about it now, again, I, there are

01:07:53.000 things that kids don't need to be exposed to. So, I mean, we talk about pornography, but we certainly

01:07:57.680 would not expose them to that. No. Yeah. Um, in an age appropriate way. And that's the, that's the

01:08:03.080 thing about parents being the, the primary faith trainers and the primary vessel through which kids

01:08:10.460 are getting that information because you know, your kids best, like, you know, their individual

01:08:15.600 personalities, their individual maturity levels. Maybe one of your kids is way more mature than

01:08:20.800 people their age and maybe, or maybe they're way less mature. That's the problem with, um, you know, 0.89

01:08:27.880 allowing any other entity, even if it's, you know, a teacher that you love, even if it's a Sunday

01:08:33.720 school teacher that you love, those can all be very good influences in your kid's life, but they are not

01:08:38.980 to be the primary, um, the primary teacher of values because they just don't know your kid and

01:08:45.900 they don't love your kid. Like you do. They're not as interested in their wellbeing as you are,

01:08:50.700 even if they love them in their own way. Um, and I think that's something that maybe this generation

01:08:57.220 of parents will wake up to that in past generations, maybe parents were more like, you know what,

01:09:01.740 I don't really need to talk theology and worldview issues with my kids. They're learning that at school

01:09:06.080 or their Christian school or their Sunday school or, you know, their friends, parents,

01:09:10.080 whatever, they'll figure it out when they go to college or something like that. Now we're realizing,

01:09:15.240 okay, well, kids are already being exposed to this. Um, they're being exposed to it at school.

01:09:20.960 They're being exposed to it with their friends or their friends, older siblings. They're being

01:09:25.060 exposed to it on social media. So they're already going to have questions and it doesn't do them any

01:09:30.240 service for us to say, well, you know, we're not, we don't want to talk about that. You'll kind of

01:09:34.780 figure it out. They will figure it out, but it might not be based on the same values that we

01:09:40.860 want them to have. Right. Right. Or like, I don't want a 12 year old teaching my kid about sex 0.84

01:09:45.580 exactly because they're 12. Right. Like, and I know they're going to talk about it. So if I talk

01:09:50.660 about it beforehand and I can say, okay, look, here's the deal. Here's the deal. And I have like,

01:09:57.000 I know what actually happens because I'm 40 and I can tell you all these things. And then I think it

01:10:03.300 helps our kids know that, Hey mom can handle that. Like, so when your friend does bring this up to

01:10:08.400 you and they're like, well, what is that? Like they know they can come talk to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think

01:10:14.460 you're so right that like, hopefully this generation, as we raise kids up, we'll know that it's okay to

01:10:19.700 talk about things. Exposure doesn't mean harm always. And I think it just creates an atmosphere of

01:10:26.520 we can have hard conversations that hopefully down the line. I don't think that out of my three kids,

01:10:34.600 they, I mean, maybe one of them will be really similar in all of our beliefs, but there will

01:10:39.680 for sure be one that is different than us. And so I want them to know that difference doesn't mean

01:10:45.040 our relationship ends. And so if I can model, here's how we have hard conversations and here's

01:10:50.800 how we talk about things that are hard. Then when they are adults, we can still, we can still love

01:10:56.940 each other and be in relationship and maybe disagree on some things and know that that doesn't ruin the

01:11:02.980 relationship. It probably deepens it because we can do hard things and be respectful and love each

01:11:09.820 other in the process. So you can start modeling that from a very early age. You don't have to wait

01:11:15.060 until they're adults to start having those hard conversations. Um, can you just leave us on a final

01:11:20.280 note of encouragement for people that are feeling anxious themselves, parents that are trying to

01:11:25.820 walk through this with their kids? I know a lot of people are feeling the weight of the world right

01:11:29.660 now with everything going on, both personally, politically. Um, so just, I guess, what's your

01:11:34.840 edification in general for people who are struggling with all of this?

01:11:39.360 Yeah. So the thing that I repeat to myself often is when we talk about, um, one of, I think the most

01:11:47.060 important thing with, um, development is attachment or relationship. And we want kids to have what we

01:11:54.420 call a secure attachment style, which means they experience their main caregivers, their mom and dad

01:12:00.240 or whoever it is as secure, as safe, as being seen by them and as stable. So to do that, you just have to

01:12:10.920 be good enough most of the time. And statistically that pans out to about 30 to 50% of the time.

01:12:17.280 So if we can be good enough most of the time, then we're going to do a really good job. And then

01:12:22.980 the thing that I just marvel at and how God created us is research shows that with attachment breaks.

01:12:30.800 So when I rupture the relationship, so I say something that's rude or hateful, or if I hurt

01:12:36.740 someone's feelings, or if I'm rude to my kid, if I go back and if I make amends and I say,

01:12:43.480 I'm sorry. And I say, Hey, Emerson, sweet girl, I'm, when I said that to you, I was really rude.

01:12:47.960 That was me. That was nothing about you. Would you consider forgiving me? Our relationship is

01:12:53.320 actually stronger when I make the repair than if I had never messed up in the first place.

01:12:59.820 And so somehow in God's infinite wisdom, he knew that we were going to be fallen and finite,

01:13:05.280 and we were going to constantly have to make repair in our relationships because we constantly

01:13:09.940 messing them up. And so he made us so that every time that we repair, we are stronger than if we

01:13:16.420 had never had to repair at all. I think that can really help people who feel like they have to

01:13:22.520 control everything and create perfect environments for themselves and for their kids in order for their

01:13:28.440 kids to succeed. That was very comforting to me. I certainly am someone who would want to control

01:13:33.940 all factors to make sure that things go perfectly for my kids. And it's a natural instinct because

01:13:39.460 you love them so much. But I heard another psychologist say a few years ago that you don't

01:13:46.940 have, you only have, especially when they get older, you only have so much control over whether or not

01:13:52.460 your kids are safe, but there's a lot that you can do to make sure that your kids are strong.

01:13:57.080 Now, obviously, ensuring safety for your kids, especially when they're young is very important

01:14:02.920 in a lot of ways. But building strength alongside that, especially as the safety factor gets less

01:14:09.840 and less in your control as a parent, that is a reassurance in itself. I have to remind myself of that

01:14:16.440 all the time. So thank you so much. Thank you for your encouragement. I know people are going to get a

01:14:21.760 lot out of this. I think you said you don't really do social media. Is there any way that they can kind

01:14:27.100 of follow your work? Yeah, I do it like every once in a while. Yeah. So I'm on Twitter and Facebook.

01:14:33.520 Okay. And I think Instagram. Okay. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you

01:14:38.180 taking the time to talk to us. Yeah. Thanks so much.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 24, 2021

Ep 476 ｜ Anxious About Everything： Addressing Anxiety Biblically ｜ Guest： Dr. Andi Thacker

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