Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 480 ｜ Better Than ‘Be the Bridge：’ Biblical Unity

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. We have got a treat for you today. Today I

00:00:15.380 have my friend Monique Dusan on from Center for Biblical Unity. She is awesome and her

00:00:24.360 partner in business is also awesome, Krista, and they do so much in bringing biblical clarity

00:00:31.200 to conversations about justice and race and racism. We have heard a lot of messages coming

00:00:38.160 from professing Christians over the past year about what it looks like to reconcile the races,

00:00:44.300 and yet a lot of these messages simply are not based in truth. They're not based in fact,

00:00:49.260 and they're also not based in the gospel. And she is on a mission, they are on a mission

00:00:56.080 to change that and to make sure that churches are looking to scripture when it comes to this issue

00:01:03.120 of unity. And I am so very thankful, so very thankful for the insight, the wisdom that she

00:01:09.220 gives. I'm going to link the new curriculum that they have written in the description of this

00:01:15.820 podcast. And I didn't get to talk about this particular subject with her. I've already recorded

00:01:20.780 the interview, but they are getting heavily censored on social media when they are trying to share their

00:01:28.220 stuff. And you can look at their curriculum, you can follow Center for Biblical Unity on Instagram,

00:01:32.560 and you will see that they are extremely gracious, extremely level-headed, and extremely biblical

00:01:38.760 in everything that they say. And that last one, I am sure, is the reason why Facebook won't even let

00:01:44.780 them advertise their curriculum. And so I am asking you, especially after you listen to this

00:01:50.540 interview, to please go to their website to support them, to purchase this curriculum, to send this

00:01:57.700 episode to your pastor to say, hey, we should get on board with this. We should look at this curriculum

00:02:02.820 or get your Bible study to do it. It's a five-week curriculum. Get people in your neighborhood to go

00:02:08.520 through it together. I really think that this can be a game changer. I think that they are doing

00:02:14.120 wonderful, wonderful, godly, glorifying work. And if you want to help change the culture of your

00:02:21.100 church, of your friend group, and send conversations about race and justice into a productive and

00:02:29.100 biblical direction, whereas maybe right now you're feeling a lot of tension on this subject with the

00:02:33.960 people that you know, I highly recommend Monique Krista Center for Biblical Unity and this particular

00:02:40.480 curriculum that they've worked really hard on and have just published. So go to the description,

00:02:45.260 the link in the description to this podcast to go ahead and purchase that. But super excited for you

00:02:50.480 to listen to this conversation. She is full of wisdom and grace as always. Without further ado, here is

00:02:55.740 Monique Dusan. Monique, thank you so much for joining us again. It's been a while since you've been

00:03:06.340 unrelatable. Can you remind people who may not know who you are and what you do?

00:03:11.320 Yes, I am Monique Dusan, and I am the co-founder of the Center for Biblical Unity. My co-founder,

00:03:16.560 Krista Bontrager, and I founded the Center for Biblical Unity back in February of 2021. And it is a

00:03:22.660 place where we truly believe in one race, one people, and one savior. And we exist to have safe and

00:03:28.760 sane conversations about race, justice, and unity. That's just us.

00:03:32.540 That's just y'all. And I love what y'all do. I've been on y'all's show before. You and Krista are just

00:03:37.960 so fun. You have such edifying and joyful conversations about a subject that is really

00:03:43.900 serious and really kind of stresses a lot of people out and confuses a lot of people, especially

00:03:49.380 the last year, talking about critical race theory, racial reconciliation, what's the role of the church

00:03:56.500 in all of this? And you guys developed a curriculum talking about the values that you just listed. Can you

00:04:02.940 talk about the development of that curriculum and what it is?

00:04:07.160 Yes. So we have a six-week study called Reconciled. And in that six-week study, we literally lead people

00:04:15.320 through the scriptures on what the Word says about our reconciliation as believers and on unity.

00:04:23.400 So we start out in week one looking at the ministry of reconciliation. What is it? Is it

00:04:29.760 racial reconciliation? You know, I think many pastors or leaders put forward this idea of

00:04:35.160 racial reconciliation based on the verse in 2 Corinthians 5. And in doing so, I think what we

00:04:43.300 can sometimes do is lead people astray into this ministry of works almost. And so we really debunk

00:04:50.420 that myth and say, hey, look, this is the ministry of reconciliation is to reconcile sinful hearts

00:04:55.980 back to God. And how do we walk in unity? So then we look at the rest of, you know, the next five

00:05:02.480 weeks, we say, okay, now if we are reconciled because of things like Ephesians, the words that

00:05:06.860 come to us in Ephesians, how do we live out unity with one another as brothers and sisters? And so it's

00:05:13.360 five more weeks of looking at how do we walk out unity? You know, as brothers and sisters,

00:05:18.360 brothers and sisters have disagreements. We don't always land at the same place, but scripture does

00:05:23.040 give us the rules of engagement to participate with one another as family. So that's what we're

00:05:28.520 looking at. Right. And I want to read, I think the passage that you're talking about in Ephesians

00:05:34.960 is Ephesians 2, 13 through 15. I believe you can, I'll read it and you can correct me if I'm wrong.

00:05:42.060 But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ,

00:05:47.260 for he himself is our peace who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh,

00:05:52.700 the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances

00:05:57.400 that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two. So making peace. So can you talk

00:06:06.020 about the difference in that unity that Ephesians 2 is very clear we gain through Christ? And then going

00:06:13.460 back to the beginning of the chapter of Ephesians 2, it lays out the two categories that exist

00:06:20.460 essentially in the world from a biblical perspective, dead in sin and alive in Christ. All of those who

00:06:26.680 are alive in Christ are reconciled no matter our background already because of Christ. And so

00:06:33.320 what does it look like? Kind of what you described as the erroneous perspective that some Christians are

00:06:41.000 taking on of racial reconciliation versus walking in unity as people who are already brothers and

00:06:48.480 sisters through Christ? Well, I think the erroneous position is based in 2 Corinthians 5 that,

00:06:54.780 you know, we've now been given the ministry of reconciliation. But what they do is they say

00:06:59.360 that we've now been given this ministry of racial reconciliation. If I'm supposed to reconcile,

00:07:03.840 well, obviously that means racial reconciliation when it really doesn't. The reconciliation talked

00:07:11.020 about, like I said earlier, is, you know, from a sinful heart to a holy God. Now, when we move over

00:07:16.220 to Ephesians, what we see is because of that reconciliation, our hearts back reconciled to God.

00:07:22.620 We initially see in Ephesians 1 that we are now all adopted into the household of faith. We are now all

00:07:31.460 God's, not God's, but Jesus's brothers and sisters. We are children of God. And that was according to

00:07:38.140 his good pleasure. So we are reconciled into the household of God. Now, when we get to Ephesians 2,

00:07:45.540 we see that there are really just two groups according to God's structure. There are those who are either

00:07:51.240 in Christ or in Adam. Now, as Gentiles, you know, we were all a part of this other group. And through

00:08:00.500 Christ, we now have a way back to the Father. That's going back to the 2 Corinthians 5 passage.

00:08:06.340 And so as we are now, as now a way has been made back to the Father, and we are either in Christ or

00:08:12.940 we are in Adam, as believers coming into Christ, we are now just in Christ. There's no in Christ and

00:08:21.460 we still need to do some work to be united. No, once we are in Christ, we are united.

00:08:27.680 We see this in John 17, when Jesus prays, he says that he's given us what we need for unity.

00:08:33.980 And so in giving us what we need for unity and in the fact that the dividing wall of hostility

00:08:39.360 has been broken, yes, that was between Jew and Gentile for those who are in Christ or in Adam.

00:08:44.580 But once we come in, we leave Adam and we come into Christ, we are one. That reconciliation has

00:08:51.680 occurred. Now, again, we can talk about how to walk out unity. I'm up for that conversation.

00:08:56.660 But to say that you and I fundamentally, ontologically can't be reconciled because of

00:09:03.300 the sin of slavery. So until you do some, you know, work, repent, lament, like all of these

00:09:09.340 things, recognize your participation in whiteness that we can't worship together. We can't

00:09:15.080 be reconciled according to the biblical definition of reconciliation. That's erroneous.

00:09:21.800 Right. And looking at that Ephesians 2 passage, like you said, it's talking about Jews and Gentiles.

00:09:28.620 It's not talking about black people and white people, but it's still relevant because the point

00:09:33.680 is, okay, if Jesus was enough to reconcile these two groups, which couldn't have been farther apart,

00:09:40.360 culturally, religiously, I'm sure the Jews were looking at the Gentiles and were like,

00:09:45.300 really? Like they're now going to be God's chosen people? How is this so? Ephesians 2 tells us that

00:09:51.660 Jesus was enough to tear down that dividing wall of hostility, which was very tall, very wide,

00:09:58.500 very strong. He was the only one that could tear it down. And if that is enough to bring those two

00:10:03.280 disparate groups together, then surely the gospel is enough to unify people that live in the same

00:10:10.580 country, just with different melanin counts. And yes, with maybe in some ways, depending on how

00:10:16.700 you look at it, a different collective history. I also, I just want to read that 2 Corinthians 5

00:10:22.720 passage, because I think, like you mentioned, that people are using this passage, verses 18 and 19

00:10:30.100 of 2 Corinthians 5, to justify this idea of racial reconciliation, which, like you said, is me,

00:10:37.460 you know, lamenting over the history of whiteness and my participation in whiteness and all of this

00:10:45.140 stuff in order for you and I to be friends and to worship together. But that's not even what the

00:10:50.320 passage itself says. Like the answer is in the verse. So verses 18 through 19, all this, so the,

00:10:56.960 well, I'll back up a little bit. Verses 17, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. So once again,

00:11:02.460 we see those two categories that you listed in Adam and in Christ, the old has passed away,

00:11:07.580 behold, the new has come. So all of us in Christ are the same newness. All of this is from God,

00:11:13.720 who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation. But it doesn't

00:11:20.260 end there. It goes on to verse 19. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself,

00:11:25.860 not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

00:11:31.820 So we see what the message of reconciliation is. Like it is the gospel of a holy God reconciling

00:11:40.460 to himself and unholy people through Christ. And also he says that he doesn't count our trespasses

00:11:47.040 against them. And yet the racial reconciliation, quote unquote, that I hear talked about by some

00:11:53.740 people who call themselves, you know, maybe social justice Christians or whatever, is actually

00:11:58.960 a lot about counting people's inherited trespasses against them. And that's not even a biblical

00:12:07.360 concept, but you know, the idea of that. So like, where did we go wrong? Like, how are we reading

00:12:13.100 scripture so differently?

00:12:15.540 That is a good question that I don't know that I have an answer to. I don't know if it is,

00:12:20.960 you know, like just for theology or not, you know, not going to seminary. I have no idea. I think that

00:12:28.540 some of this though is taught in our seminaries too. And so I don't, I don't really have an answer

00:12:35.480 to say, you know, this is specifically why this has now, you know, come up or people are now teaching

00:12:42.000 the word this way, but it's, it's decimating churches and families all across the board.

00:12:48.980 You know, when, when we read in the scriptures that there is no longer like Scythian or barbarian

00:12:54.460 or things like that, that is those groups, these groups are, when we come into the body of Christ,

00:13:02.020 we come into Christ. There is now one. And that doesn't mean like, let's say that when we come

00:13:09.560 into Christ, like, you know, I'm still black. Like I didn't, I didn't lose my, my pigment. I

00:13:15.280 didn't lose the, the, my, my ethnicity coming into Christ, but that takes a back seat to my

00:13:23.260 identity in Christ the same way. Every ethnicity should take a back seat to our identity in Christ.

00:13:30.240 And when we come into Christ, the old man is second. Like, like I don't regard anyone according

00:13:37.000 to their old man. I regard them according to the new as children of God first. So yeah,

00:13:44.140 but I think Kristen, I rack our minds too, of like, you know, where did, where, where was the

00:13:51.240 entry point or the loophole, so to speak, where this was able to come in? I think that there is,

00:13:58.080 you know, I will say this. I think that there is, um, spaces within certain churches that maybe

00:14:04.540 haven't tackled questions of identity, questions of history. And that has allowed this growing, um,

00:14:14.400 error to, to thrive in some churches.

00:14:17.760 I think that's a good point because we know that racism exists. I think everyone knows it when they

00:14:33.640 see it, at least, you know, people using their common sense. I'm not talking about now this like

00:14:39.140 convoluted, um, you can't be not racist. You can only be anti-racist definition of racism. I'm

00:14:45.840 talking about actual disdain and mistreatment of people, condescension of people based on their

00:14:51.580 skin color, whether it's through law or whether it's through personal interaction. I think we all

00:14:55.460 know kind of what that looks like and recognize that it points in our history. It's been, uh, more

00:15:01.140 mainstream and things like that. Everyone reckon recognizes that. And I don't think that the church

00:15:08.660 really until recently thought very much about, okay, well, what do we, what do we do about that?

00:15:14.460 We do have this like racism in our history and you know, Oh shoot, our Baptist church defended Jim

00:15:20.020 Crow in the 1960s or something like that. And they're like, well, I don't know what to do with

00:15:23.840 this. And these people in our church, they say that they're feeling hurt by this. And I really

00:15:28.080 want to do right by them. So I think it's a lot of sincere pastors who have never thought about this

00:15:33.640 stuff. Um, now realizing, okay, I do need to think about it. And unfortunately, I think that often the

00:15:40.060 people that they turn to the resources that they turn to are sometimes straight up secular

00:15:44.160 resources. So they don't have a Christian perspective on race and racism. That's where

00:15:48.680 we kind of get the infiltration of things like critical race theory, or you've got people who

00:15:53.760 identify as more progressive Christians who really don't have an orthodox view of the gospel or scripture

00:15:59.340 at all. Again, kind of combining that secularism with vague Christian theology. And, um, so yeah,

00:16:07.960 I think that maybe there's like a vacuum there and secular theories kind of filled it up. And some

00:16:14.960 well-meaning pastors didn't really know what to do except to just kind of listen to those voices.

00:16:20.240 Cause that's what they were told they had to do in order to, I guess, reconcile.

00:16:24.400 So I agree with that. You know, Kristen, I have conversations a lot that, you know,

00:16:30.160 some of these things just aren't taught in seminary. You know, you don't go to seminary and

00:16:34.260 learn about how do I deal with racial injustice or how do I deal with social justice versus biblical

00:16:41.660 justice? And then when the culture is yelling at you, you need to, I think a lot of pastors simply

00:16:51.460 are human and they, they want to make sure that they're doing the right thing. Unfortunately,

00:16:56.500 sometimes that right thing that they see is a culture narrative, cultural narrative,

00:17:02.080 which is a secular narrative nine times out of 10, instead of looking directly at scripture,

00:17:07.160 because they don't want to upset anyone. They don't want to offend anyone. But the reality is

00:17:11.280 that sometimes the word of God is going to be upsetting and offensive. It's going to strike people in,

00:17:17.000 you know, ways that aren't always pleasant, but we stick to the word of God. We stick to the

00:17:21.800 scriptures. Yeah, that's absolutely true. I read this, I read this interesting poll by Gallup

00:17:29.820 about race relations and we'll put the graph up on the screen. I think we can do it in a way that you

00:17:36.600 can see it. And so the question by Gallup, this is a recent poll. Would you say relations between white

00:17:43.960 and black people are very good, somewhat good, somewhat bad, or very bad? And these are just

00:17:48.000 Americans. These are not necessarily Christians. If you look back at 2001, the earliest the survey goes,

00:17:55.860 70% of black adults, that's more than the white adults, thought that things are either very or

00:18:04.440 somewhat good between black and white people in the United States. 62% of white people thought that.

00:18:09.880 And then it's pretty even until about 2013, which I just think is interesting. We've got the first

00:18:17.480 black president. We're supposed to be making a lot of progress towards a post-racial society.

00:18:22.900 Apparently we're getting more tolerant. You look at 2013, where 72% of white people, 66% of black people

00:18:30.540 thought that, okay, things are good between black and white people. Steep drop off to 2015,

00:18:37.140 where only 45% of white people thought things were good. 51% of black people thought things were

00:18:42.700 good. And now we are at an all-time low. 33% of black adults think that it's, you know, race relations

00:18:50.500 are good in the United States. Only 43% of white adults think that race relations are good in the

00:18:58.780 United States. And I know that you kind of said, we don't really know what's causing this necessarily

00:19:05.480 in the church. But I'm curious your take and your analysis that from 2013 to now, or 2001 to now,

00:19:13.620 it's gone down 40 points almost from people thinking race relations are good among black

00:19:19.560 Americans to race relations are this bad. How is that possible? When we have been reading Ibram X.

00:19:25.720 Kendi, we've been doing the work, academia and public school are all teaching kids how to be

00:19:31.120 activists, how to be social justice activists. We've been talking about equality and equity.

00:19:35.560 Like I said, we had our first black president. We're talking about all this stuff, way more critical

00:19:40.820 race theory has become mainstream. And yet it's, it's worse. I don't know. I can't say worse than

00:19:47.600 ever, but at least in 20 years, our race relations are the worst that they have been. What do you think

00:19:56.380 is behind that? Well, I'm not an expert, but I can speculate. I would think that some of it is due to

00:20:04.680 this push that tells us everything is horrible. Every person who was killed, every black person who

00:20:11.780 was killed by a white person, it's automatically racist. And then what we see is this, this push

00:20:18.360 for you to believe this paradigm, so to speak, that all white people are out to get all black people.

00:20:26.960 We get redefinitions of racism. We get the, the consistent messaging that everything that's done

00:20:34.300 is racist. If that's what I'm seeing all the time, eventually that's going to be what I believe.

00:20:40.460 And so I honestly think that a lot of it goes just down to plain narrative. I think we are inviting

00:20:46.360 people into conversations and to believe things that we haven't asked people to believe before the

00:20:51.440 idea of microaggressions, the fact that, or the idea that I can know what your intent is. And if it goes

00:20:59.940 against the way that I think a white person should behave, then obviously it's racism. This redefinition

00:21:06.480 of racism, the fact that everything is racist. And now, as I look at everything that might not be going

00:21:13.180 well, I now have a reason to say, Hey, this is racist. This is all racism. Everything is racism.

00:21:21.280 It's not just, um, it's not just, you know, the fact that it's put before us all the time. It's the

00:21:27.360 freedom now that I have to live within this new thought of my truth. This very postmodern idea that

00:21:33.720 if I deem it racist, then it's automatically racist. And every white person is racist. But how many times

00:21:40.460 are we hearing that? How many times are we hearing the conversation of every inequity is an injustice?

00:21:46.740 Everything, you know, every, every act of racism is always happening. I don't know that we necessarily

00:21:53.220 were thinking that before. I don't even know that statistically there's proof to, to uphold the idea,

00:22:00.900 but this is yet what we're, we're, we're being told and sold into believing.

00:22:05.680 And I've also noticed people within the church who would probably consider themselves

00:22:11.280 conservative theologically. Um, I've, I've seen a lot of rhetoric change, uh, among some people

00:22:18.720 within the church who I do regard as brothers and sisters in Christ. We just disagree on this issue,

00:22:24.900 but I have seen them become very dogmatic in this. And I, I don't, I apologize for my vagueness,

00:22:33.640 but I also don't want to like call out specific, specific names, but I am thinking of some specific

00:22:38.480 people that I have seen become, it seems like extremely bitter and extremely angry when it

00:22:44.900 comes to this specific, um, specific subject. Whereas 10 years ago, they weren't writing about

00:22:52.260 this stuff. They weren't talking about this stuff. Um, we probably agreed mostly on racism and justice

00:22:59.980 things, but now they have moved to the left on the ideological spectrum on this. And they seem very

00:23:06.560 angry that other people have it. And even believe that if, for example, you and I are not pursuing

00:23:12.340 racial justice and reconciliation the way they are, it's because we are secretly racist or because we

00:23:18.780 are not real Christians. We are divisive. They would say people who complain about critical race theory are

00:23:24.340 the ones who are divisive. And I just, and I've seen it, this kind of tears apart churches. Like

00:23:31.380 David Platt's church had a big disagreement about all of this. John Piper's church and seminary are

00:23:36.480 having a big disagreement about all of this. Um, and so can you talk about like for people maybe in

00:23:43.380 those churches, in those organizations who find themselves like pitted against people that they

00:23:47.460 thought that they were on the same page with, when it comes to most issues, like how do you,

00:23:53.600 from a biblical perspective, deal with real racism that happens and, um, the things that we see, like

00:24:00.720 biblically, how does it differ from what we see black lives matter and secularists doing in the face of

00:24:08.580 racism? Well, first I, I think that many people would say that this conversation has been going on for a

00:24:14.300 very long time. I think, um, for the critical race theorists or the social justice warrior,

00:24:18.760 they would put forward the argument that, Hey, we've been having this conversation and many people

00:24:24.180 in the church just haven't wanted to step up to the plate. Again, I don't know that that's true.

00:24:30.540 I don't know that there's proof of that to be able to say, well, you know, every person who leans

00:24:35.500 right did not want to have this conversation. What I think has happened is that in 2020, it was

00:24:41.760 definitely laid on our doorstep. Now, when looking at how do we deal with, with racism in the church,

00:24:49.560 like real racism and not going down the BLM route one, I think that we need to go to scripture and

00:24:56.080 look at, well, how do I deal with ethnic partiality? You know, Kristen, I say, there's no verse in the

00:25:00.820 Bible that says thou shall not be a racist, but we do look at the sin that it, that aligns with racism.

00:25:07.440 So partiality based on ethnicity, hatred based on ethnicity, um, slander based on ethnicity.

00:25:13.780 And then we handled those issues appropriately. What is like, what is the, the call to like repent

00:25:22.080 or to call someone under church discipline? If they choose to live their life from a place of

00:25:27.740 ethnic partiality, I personally, and I know many people wouldn't agree with this, but I personally

00:25:32.700 would say, Hey, are like, are you a believer? Should I treat you as an unbeliever? If you are

00:25:37.000 holding this type of partiality in your heart toward your brother, because clearly this isn't what we

00:25:43.360 see in scripture about how we treat one another. When we read Ephesians four, Ephesians four is very

00:25:48.400 clear on how I treat someone in the body of Christ. And we also have to understand that racism can go

00:25:56.220 to anyone. It's heart to heart. So it's not just that I now need to be on the lookout for white

00:26:02.500 people who are oppressive, marginalizing and things like that toward black people. I need to look out

00:26:08.540 for everyone. You know, anyone can, can have ethnic partiality or hatred in their heart towards someone

00:26:17.700 else because of their ethnic background or because of the color of their skin. And so this is, this is

00:26:22.620 something that as leaders in churches, as pastors, or just the, the lay person who knows that their

00:26:28.980 friend, you know, maybe harboring hatred in their heart. These are things that we talk about, not

00:26:34.200 things that we shy away from. And we allow to live inside of our church communities.

00:26:39.080 There is, um, a very famous, uh, speaker that both of us know. And again, in the interest of like,

00:26:47.160 not trying to instigate like internet drama, because that's not what I want to do,

00:26:52.300 but this is, uh, someone that, uh, a woman that a lot of people follow, a lot of conservative

00:26:56.900 Christians follow. And she says a lot of good stuff. I had someone message me and it just made

00:27:03.680 me sad. Um, a young woman messaged me and said, Hey, I just went to this conference where this woman

00:27:08.240 was teaching. And, you know, I don't agree with her on the social justice stuff, but beyond that,

00:27:14.120 I left the conference feeling like she really, like if I met her, she would really hate me and that

00:27:19.020 she hates white people. And she was like, I'm sure she doesn't, but it comes across that way.

00:27:23.780 And I do see that attitude among some Christians that they have taken on this secular definition

00:27:28.980 of racism as being privileged plus power. Therefore only white people can be truly racist when that's

00:27:36.460 not the biblical definition. Like you said, God hates partiality. We see that throughout the old

00:27:40.900 and the new Testament, he doesn't show partiality. And he tells us that it is actually an injustice

00:27:46.380 to show partiality towards people. And that means white or black. Um, and so anything else,

00:27:54.060 any other ethnic group, you know, one of the things that really bugs me now that I'm out of the CRT

00:28:03.020 mindset is just the black, white binary that gets set up in all of these conversations. What about

00:28:09.460 anyone else? Yeah. And that's true when you're talking to about like diversity, like all of these

00:28:17.400 things sound so good when people are saying, okay, you know, we want a diverse church or we want a

00:28:21.680 church that looks like heaven or whatever. And I saw a tweet the other day by, I think it was a pastor

00:28:28.380 who said, you know, if your church looks the same as you speaks the same language as you votes, the same

00:28:33.860 way that you do, then you're not a real church. And I know, or I'm assuming that that person is

00:28:40.700 really thinking probably about light Republican churches when they're saying that they probably

00:28:45.580 are not thinking about the Korean church that is entirely Korean and probably all votes the same

00:28:51.880 way and thinks pretty similar things. He's probably not talking about them. But the fact of the matter

00:28:57.180 is, is that the fully Chinese church, the 100% black church, or even the 100% white church,

00:29:03.860 is not, is not failing to glorify God in some way because of their skin color, because diversity

00:29:13.460 could is, well, one, it's not something that we see in scripture as like a standard of holiness

00:29:19.340 for the church, but also it's a bigger definition than white and black. Like there, if you have a

00:29:25.400 church that's entirely white or entirely black, you could have 50 different nationalities in there.

00:29:30.520 You could have 50 different, you know, or you could have a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

00:29:35.360 You could have a variety of family backgrounds. And so I wonder why diversity of other kinds has

00:29:43.940 kind of been put to the back burner, or even of other races has been put to the back burner.

00:29:49.880 And we only measure a success of a church, or at least in the social justice world of,

00:29:55.080 okay, well, how many black versus white people do you have? I mean,

00:29:57.860 that also seems very condescending. It does. And, and it, it, to me, it's just so

00:30:04.460 exclusionary. It, it leaves so many people on the margins and, and in the fringes. And, you know,

00:30:11.880 what if there's something happening with my Korean brethren's brother or sister, how do I look into

00:30:18.820 that? How do I know if all my focus is on black and white? Yeah. If everything that,

00:30:24.580 that we're pushing toward is black and white. If when a black person walks in, you know, now we,

00:30:30.980 we are diverse in some ways, is that not tokenism? Is that not using me for your own gain? Because

00:30:36.800 of the color of my skin, because you want your church to be more diverse. The body of Christ is

00:30:41.940 diverse. Yeah. Let's just be honest. When we look at the global church, the global church is diverse.

00:30:46.480 I think to put forward this standard that every white church needs to be multi-ethnic when,

00:30:53.140 or in multi-ethnic, meaning, you know, it needs to have black people when black people are what,

00:30:57.140 13% of the population. That's a, that's going to be a big feat for every white church.

00:31:02.980 Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back to this idea that the only spaces that are obligated to be diverse

00:31:10.240 are the majority white churches. And again, that's neglecting the fact that especially in maybe some

00:31:16.640 rural areas, there might be almost, you know, a hundred percent white people or in some areas

00:31:22.720 might be almost a hundred percent black people. And I just don't see a standard in scripture that says

00:31:30.260 we have to meet these particular quotas in order to be a healthy or a holy church. And also when people

00:31:37.740 say, we want the church to look like heaven, or we want our local church to look like the world.

00:31:42.340 Okay. Well, what's your, what's your age demographic? Because, Hey, look, you're in an area

00:31:47.780 with a lot of old people. And I see mostly people under 40 at your church. I don't see anyone with

00:31:53.740 special needs at your church. And so again, it goes back to when we're talking about diversity and on

00:31:58.660 earth as it is in heaven and all these things that sound so good. Really what it comes down to

00:32:03.440 is that you want a church that has enough black people so that you can say that your church is

00:32:08.740 diverse. But again, you're not looking at all of these other categories of people that may exist.

00:32:14.420 Or what is the basis for your, your unity amongst your diversity? So it's like, yeah, we, now we have,

00:32:23.960 you know, a reflection of our community. So the, the, there's 3% black people in our community.

00:32:30.300 We have 3% black people in our church, but you know, we also have a wide variety. Some people

00:32:36.220 are progressive. Some people, you know, believe in this. They believe that you can, you know,

00:32:42.200 do all of these other things that aren't orthodox. I think that we are putting diversity before unity

00:32:49.440 and we need to be having a conversation of how do we keep our church orthodox? How do we keep it in

00:32:55.300 line with scripture before I bust out this conversation of how many black brown people

00:33:02.040 can I get into my church? Right. We, if, if we aren't looking at unity first, then I think we'll

00:33:08.940 run the risk of having diversity that is truly, um, that, that truly runs the risk of splitting the

00:33:16.700 church. Yep. And I'm not saying, you know, all black people are progressive. I'm not saying that at all.

00:33:20.900 But what I am saying is that we have to guard our unity in such a way that it protects the,

00:33:28.280 the faith once for all given to the saints. I can't sacrifice the faith on behalf of diversity.

00:33:33.960 Yep. And we also can't sacrifice basic facts. I think that's like, that's one thing that when I'm

00:33:40.860 talking to someone that I disagree with, and again, I talked to a very well-known speaker,

00:33:45.340 author, and we were talking about this idea of systemic racism and how I disagree with not only

00:33:53.060 how she has approached it, but also some of the speakers that she has hosted, how they, uh, how

00:33:58.980 they approach it and how they talk about it and really what it came down to, even though she and

00:34:02.740 I agreed on most things theologically, and we probably actually agreed on most things politically

00:34:07.160 too. She's not a progressive. She's certainly a sister in Christ. Um, and yet when it came to this

00:34:13.020 topic of systemic racism and me presenting some facts or some other ways to think about it,

00:34:20.160 or some maybe resources from you or Thomas soul or, you know, the other side, it was just,

00:34:25.620 no, it was just, I don't want to hear that. Look, my black friends tell me that there is systemic

00:34:30.420 racism. They tell me there's an epidemic of police violence against black people. And if they tell me,

00:34:36.240 then it is on empathetic and unloving for me to disagree with them. And I just,

00:34:42.400 can't get on board with that. And maybe, I don't know, maybe that's my fault, but I just don't see

00:34:50.300 how it's loving to allow someone to believe what I see is a false narrative in some ways. Well,

00:34:59.000 how do you respond to that? I think that before we make accusations, biblically, we need to have

00:35:06.100 evidence. So we need to, we still follow the patterns of scripture. We look at the evidence.

00:35:11.960 I don't just run and say, well, one person was killed. So see, this is a issue of systemic

00:35:17.620 racism. I don't even say, look, 10 people were killed. This is an issue of systemic racism. I

00:35:22.680 say, what does the data say? What does the facts say now? And there are many people who are doing

00:35:28.880 different levels of research, but we need to do our due diligence as Christians to put forth

00:35:34.200 the data and say, look, this is really what the data is. Are there issues of systemic racism

00:35:40.240 within our country? Sure. I am not a systemic racism denier, but I will say we have to define

00:35:46.200 that term carefully. That is a term that is thrown out everywhere nowadays. Everything is

00:35:51.440 systemically racist. I don't believe that. I do believe that where you get two or more hearts that

00:35:57.820 want to be in collusion and sinful, you have the ability to create a system that can work against

00:36:04.000 a people. Yeah. That can also work against white people. That can work against Koreans. That can

00:36:09.280 work against Chinese. Our definition and what we see being put forth a lot in culture right now

00:36:14.160 is that the idea of systemic racism only happens to black people. I'm not, I don't, I don't uphold

00:36:19.560 that view. I think we need to be careful as Christians to define our terms very carefully. And no,

00:36:25.860 I can't just go off of, well, this is what I think, or this is what I feel. I need to have

00:36:30.500 evidence before I put forth accusations. And we, again, I think as Christians have to be so careful

00:36:44.460 not to take the secular definition of things, but also at the same time, like you've done,

00:36:48.560 not necessarily just throw them out because they're secular. Like you have examined this claim

00:36:56.140 of systemic racism. And rather than calling everything systemically racist, you've actually

00:37:00.440 thought about it and said, okay, well, here's where I see this. Here's where I don't see this.

00:37:04.720 I think a trap that a lot of people, Christian, are not fall into. We've talked about it many times

00:37:09.520 on this podcast is the idea that all racial disparities is due to, or are due to racial

00:37:15.860 discrimination. And so the so-called proof that some people put forth of systemic racism is,

00:37:21.300 well, look, Black people have a lower graduation rate. They have a higher proportion of poverty

00:37:27.660 among them or things like that. And they think that that is enough to prove that that is due to

00:37:33.280 systemic racism without looking at the fact that, okay, well, white people have a lower graduation rate

00:37:39.200 and a higher poverty rate than Asians. And so if one of those, the disparity between whites and Blacks

00:37:45.940 is due to racism, is the disparity between Asians and whites due to racism? And of course,

00:37:49.900 they would say, no, but that just goes to show kind of the fallacy of saying disparities equal

00:37:56.040 discrimination. We actually have to think a little bit harder than that. They could be due to

00:37:59.940 discrimination. That's the truth. They could be due to discrimination. They could be due to unfair

00:38:04.300 systems. But we actually have to think a little bit harder, read a little bit more and say, okay,

00:38:10.900 but if it is due to discrimination, I need to be able to prove it. Not just kind of this vague

00:38:15.800 sense of, well, there was Jim Crow. There is some idea of mass incarceration. There was slavery. So

00:38:21.400 that must be the reason for these disparities. I won't get into all of this, but Thomas Sowell

00:38:25.880 actually tries to debunk that entire narrative. But it seems like it's really hard to have these

00:38:32.660 conversations, especially as a white woman. If I try to engage and say, well, you know, that's kind

00:38:38.600 of a fallacy, or that's not really true, or that's not really biblical, that I'm accused of

00:38:43.160 lacking empathy, lacking love, lacking understanding towards my Black brothers and sisters. I don't want

00:38:48.900 to be called that. I don't think the people in my audience want to be called that. So how do we

00:38:53.560 approach these tough conversations with our brothers and sisters in Christ, whom we love, but we don't

00:38:59.980 want to come off as unsympathetic?

00:39:02.620 Well, nobody wants to be unsympathetic. No one wants to, you know, lack empathy and things like

00:39:08.520 that. And yet that is what this narrative is creating. And it's actually one of the tenets

00:39:14.340 of critical race theory, which is this narrative. And going back to the idea that Black people can

00:39:21.220 have an insight into racism that, you know, white people can't, or that the stories that we tell

00:39:30.320 helped to bring reality to racism. And so when we look at, you know, how do we have these

00:39:38.200 conversations? I would say we do so with one, lots of grace, but two, ask questions, get biblical

00:39:44.500 support, you know, ask for biblical support. You know, where do you see this concept in scripture?

00:39:50.080 How do you see what you're saying align with this scripture here? Can you give me a definition for

00:39:57.480 the word that you're using? Where do you see this word being used in scripture or even a concept?

00:40:03.360 Like, just like I said, we don't see racism in scripture, that word, but we can put together

00:40:09.000 different tenets or principles to create the racism or the definition for what we're seeing today or what

00:40:16.220 people are using today. How do you, when you look in scripture, put that together? Is that a

00:40:21.940 scriptural or a biblical principle? I would say definitely, though, have grace. Read first sources

00:40:28.240 because many people will say, well, you know, this person doesn't really believe that. Robin D'Angelo

00:40:33.740 doesn't believe this. Well, if you have read Robin D'Angelo, and I would say do so carefully, but if you

00:40:40.340 have, you can say, well, actually, she says this. Ibram Kendi has said this, you know, and begin to

00:40:46.880 engage people where they are and let them know, hey, this principle isn't biblical. It actually

00:40:53.480 is antithetical to the scriptures and to Christianity when we look at, you know, these

00:40:59.560 verses here. But again, it must be seasoned with grace and it has to be a conversation that's done

00:41:05.980 patiently because, you know, people want, people get defensive. I got defensive a lot when Kristen and I

00:41:12.840 would have these conversations, but she was very patient with me. Right. And so I think that's part

00:41:17.920 of, of the conversation, understanding that it's going to take grace, understanding that you're

00:41:22.960 going to mess up. Yeah. You know, and, and you'll be accused of being racist and things like that. And

00:41:27.720 that will be painful. Yeah. And asking for forgiveness, extending forgiveness, giving grace,

00:41:35.400 going again, bearing with one another. It's all the things that we see in Ephesians four.

00:41:39.560 Yeah. And unfortunately, I do think that this, how many professing Christians are approaching race

00:41:46.560 and racism, how they talk about race and racism from the social justice perspective, how they talk

00:41:53.480 about white people, how they talk about the plight of black Americans. It is, they are actually not open

00:42:02.240 to conversations, certainly not with people who disagree with them on it, because like you said,

00:42:08.140 they are offering their lived experience as proof of a systemic problem. And if your subjective

00:42:14.860 experience is your proof, then you're basically saying, you know, this is my truth. No, you can't

00:42:20.740 argue against that. I don't want your data. I don't want your facts. You can't, you can't argue against

00:42:26.640 that. And it can be really difficult. You know, for example, when a big news story happens and it looks

00:42:32.100 like, okay, a white cop killed, um, an unarmed black person, of course, the propensity is to just

00:42:39.480 say, wow, you know, that's awful. That's terrible. This must be this big systemic problem. And we need

00:42:44.540 to, you know, post something about racism. And then if someone comes along and says, well, actually,

00:42:50.300 you know, that's not what happened. Here's, here's what actually happened. And here are the numbers.

00:42:54.680 You're immediately accused of lacking compassion and you, and people say, well, you know, we don't

00:43:01.180 want your facts. Just have a little heart. And my question is, well, like when, when's the right

00:43:06.180 time then? When's the right time? Because if people are believing something that's not true, that's

00:43:10.720 actually causing them unfounded fear and bitterness and hatred towards a group of people, is it not loving

00:43:17.120 to me as their sister, for me as their sister in Christ to say, I totally understand your pain.

00:43:22.660 And I don't know what it's like to be black. And I'm not saying that I do, but here's the truth.

00:43:27.680 Like here, here are the facts. Like I want to turn the lights on for you. Um, it's, it's hard. Like,

00:43:33.860 I don't know really what my question is, but it's hard to find, um, to find that balance. I think

00:43:39.340 the truth and the facts and the data are all so important. And yet, uh, they seem to not be

00:43:46.780 prioritized many times when we're talking about race and race and racial reconciliation.

00:43:51.640 But that goes back to the exact same, the exact thing I was talking about at the beginning

00:43:56.080 of like, um, what we're being bombarded with and what we're being shown. So the, I think it's the

00:44:02.560 National African-American Museum of History and Culture came in and that's a Smithsonian museum

00:44:08.180 came out with the graphic last year about whiteness and what whiteness is. And whiteness is facts. It's

00:44:15.140 logic. It's the data driven results. So if I, if I, if I am giving you data, then I am automatically

00:44:22.460 participating in whiteness, which I'm automatically now participating in racism. So it's like, how,

00:44:28.500 how do we have this conversation when culture is setting it up where now we can't have any

00:44:34.280 conversation because anything I do is racist. Right. And that makes it really difficult. And I

00:44:39.760 think that's why some people after last summer kind of checked out, like they posted their black

00:44:44.580 square, they said what they were going to say, but then they realized, okay, you know, I'm still

00:44:49.920 being told to do the work and to read all these books and to divest of my whiteness and privilege.

00:44:55.740 And a lot of people are just checked out and said, okay, well, I'm not having this conversation

00:45:00.200 anymore. And unfortunately that is what happened, what happens like this idea of collective grievance

00:45:06.740 and collective guilt that I am angry at you, or you are angry at me for something that

00:45:11.880 maybe possibly someone who lived before me with a similar skin color did that's it's difficult for

00:45:19.620 us to digest. It's also wrong. It's not, it's not biblical. Um, but also it turns people off to the

00:45:27.020 conversation about race in general. And I do. And obviously you'd think this too. It's like,

00:45:32.580 it's still a conversation worth having. Like we still need to be having these conversations.

00:45:37.100 And unfortunately I think the extremism that we see on the other side just kind of turns people

00:45:42.940 off from talking about it, period. I think it does. I think people get tired. They get fatigued

00:45:48.480 from, you know, constantly being the wrong one. I also think people get like fatigued from being

00:45:54.760 the victim or told like, Hey, you're constantly marginalized. You're constantly under. Um,

00:46:00.040 when, when, when we look at how we establish evidence biblically, we establish it with two

00:46:06.280 or three witnesses. You know, I have a, um, a friend, Eric Muldrow and he, he does a ton of

00:46:13.640 research on police shootings on the data and he's a black guy and the data doesn't line up. So now the

00:46:22.460 data doesn't line up, but yet we're forcing a narrative on black and white of exactly what

00:46:28.020 this is, you know, this is systemic. This is a reason to defund the police. This is,

00:46:34.800 you know, the evidence that we need to just to prove that racism exists.

00:46:40.720 I think that one, we have, again, we have to give grace and we can also, we can, like you said,

00:46:46.780 we can look at America's history. We can look in and acknowledge the facts in the, in the scriptures.

00:46:50.840 We see Israel as a prize and we see her as a prostitute. I can look at America and I can say,

00:46:55.020 look, I see America in her heyday and I can see America when she wasn't doing too well.

00:46:58.940 That is history and that's okay. But I can't hold you responsible for the sins of your ancestors

00:47:05.320 and say, now you yourself are guilty and you should be lamenting and repenting for the hearts

00:47:11.560 of the people who came before you that you might not even know just because you simply bear their

00:47:16.240 skin color. Right. And I do, I just want to make a note about like the whole ancestor thing. We talk

00:47:21.240 about that, but I just thought about this like a few months ago that, Hey, when I am talking about,

00:47:27.660 Oh, I don't want to be held responsible for the sin of my ancestors. It's not even that. Cause I

00:47:31.840 don't even know if my ancestors owned slaves. They probably didn't because there were only like 7%

00:47:37.880 of the South that even did own slaves. And so when people are talking about your ancestors,

00:47:42.760 my ancestors, what we're really talking about is something way more disconnected than that.

00:47:47.420 What people are talking about is actually people who just lived in the same geographical region that

00:47:53.120 we did, who happened to have the same melanin count. So that's even an even weaker case that

00:47:59.140 I bear their responsibility. So when people talk about, you know, the collective repentance in

00:48:05.260 Daniel or in Ezra of Israel, and they tried to say, you know, that is the case for reparations here

00:48:11.700 in America today, that white Americans need collective repentance. There's so much wrong with that

00:48:17.020 because that one, that was Israel, that was God's chosen people. America is not modern day Israel

00:48:23.220 to when they were talking about the sins of their ancestors, those were their actual blood ancestors.

00:48:29.620 Like those weren't just people who shared their skin color in the same vague region. Those were their

00:48:34.240 actual ancestors. And also the sins that they were repenting of were sins that were still going on

00:48:40.660 to that day actively. And God says that, you know, a son is not going to bear the sin of his father or

00:48:47.940 his grandfather. And so I just see a lot of, um, an attempt to reinterpret scripture and even the gospel

00:48:56.860 to try to fit into something that it's just not. And I think that's part of why we're seeing what we're

00:49:04.060 seeing in that Gallup poll, that people are divided because we have a totally different understanding of

00:49:09.020 just even how the world works. I agree completely. I think the whole redefinition of sin, America's

00:49:15.280 original sin, you know, how are we considering sin? These are big conversations. And like I said

00:49:22.440 earlier, I don't think that people are taught in seminary how to address these things. How do I,

00:49:28.520 you know, acknowledge racism that may be happening today? How do I talk to the racist that might be in

00:49:34.980 my conversation? I mean, in my congregation, regardless of their skin color and stick to the biblical truth

00:49:42.360 of scripture. Yeah, there, there's just a lot of, of influence and a lot of voices playing into the

00:49:48.380 conversation. And we have to stick to what the word of God says first. Right, right. And okay, I've got

00:49:57.540 one more question for you, but I do want to say when I, when I was saying that, oh, only 8% of

00:50:04.560 southerners own slaves. That was not me minimizing in any way how grotesque and pervasive slavery and

00:50:10.820 that culture was and even lingering for many years after the end of slavery. It was just to make the

00:50:18.000 point that not every white person today or every black person today has ancestors that were involved

00:50:24.680 in slavery. So I think it's really important to be exact with our language, but my last.

00:50:28.920 And I agree with that. And I think that that's, this is part of the conversation that needs to be had

00:50:33.780 Yeah. Were white people the only people who owned slaves? No. Were white people the only people who

00:50:39.520 bought and sold slaves? No. And yet we don't look at the broader narrative of history. We don't look

00:50:46.800 at, you know, how slavery was handled in the South and by whom, you know, are we going to talk about the

00:50:55.700 fact that black people own slaves? And even if it was a small amount of black people who own slaves,

00:51:00.900 that's still, it's still a reality. Are we going to talk about Native Americans that sold slaves and

00:51:07.400 participated in some of that trade? We haven't. And, you know, this isn't, again, to minimize

00:51:13.720 slavery. It's not to minimize the impact or anything like that. Yet, if we're going to be called to the

00:51:19.580 carpet as a nation, we need to be looking at the truth of our history and not just looking at it

00:51:26.660 from this one-sided view of history. Yeah. It's very easy to just kind of generalize history. Again,

00:51:34.460 that white and black binary that really, it inhibits us from seeing history as it really was,

00:51:40.720 from seeing morality as it really is, when we insist upon white, bad, black, good. Well,

00:51:46.040 there's a lot of nuance. Like, there are a lot of, you know, that's just not necessarily the true

00:51:51.900 presiding narrative of human history. My last question that I think people are wondering about,

00:51:59.540 a lot of people have heard about the Be the Bridge curriculum. A lot of people's churches have gone

00:52:04.640 through it, and they've even seen it as like an alternative to critical race theory and progressive

00:52:09.620 curriculum. And yet, you've created a new curriculum. So obviously, you saw a need for it,

00:52:15.740 even though Be the Bridge exists. Can you tell us the difference between what you guys have created

00:52:21.080 and the Be the Bridge curriculum, and maybe why you think that's a little problematic?

00:52:28.860 Yeah. So we created a curriculum reconciled, as I mentioned earlier, LaTosha Morrison created

00:52:34.620 Be the Bridge curriculum, maybe six or seven years ago at this point, five to seven years ago, I'll say.

00:52:40.480 And she created her curriculum from what I have read and understand. I believe, one,

00:52:47.660 she created it from a good place and wanting to pursue unity within the church and to really build

00:52:52.720 a bridge between blacks and whites. I believe at the time she was living in the South and had

00:52:58.240 experienced some issues down there regarding race. And so I will start out by saying that, yes,

00:53:05.780 I do believe that Mrs. Morrison started out from a good place in wanting to have a curriculum that

00:53:12.880 spoke into issues regarding race and racism. Unfortunately, and I say this publicly on my

00:53:19.500 YouTube page, unfortunately, I believe that she's gone away from some of the tenets of, you know,

00:53:25.600 like the foundational tenets for unity that we find in the scriptures. I think that some of her

00:53:31.760 curriculum actually creates more of the black, white binary and separates black Christians from

00:53:38.440 white Christians and puts out a list of things that white Christians must do that black Christians

00:53:43.600 don't necessarily have to participate in. I've received a ton of letters from people who have

00:53:47.820 participated in her Facebook group. I was actually a part of her Facebook group and then I got banned.

00:53:52.640 But, you know, it's really a thing of, and I'm not going to call it quote unquote abusive,

00:53:58.640 but there are parts of it where it's like, you know, white people can't speak or I can't,

00:54:03.320 me being black, I can put in my comment like, hey, this is only for black people,

00:54:09.200 white people. We don't want to hear from you. She actually released, what is it called? I'm

00:54:14.560 going to actually read it. It's 16 bridge building tips for white people. And so this is a list of 16

00:54:20.380 things that white people should do if they want to build bridges with black people. And some of those

00:54:25.580 things include, don't expect people of color to be your only source for education about race.

00:54:30.600 I can agree with that. As a black person, that would be overwhelming. If all my white friends

00:54:34.680 came to me and were like, what do you think about this? What's your thought about that?

00:54:37.560 That'll be overwhelming. But then, you know, we go down to things like, um, let's see here.

00:54:46.540 Oh, sorry. I just got off of it. Don't make the conversation about you. Don't white explain.

00:54:54.340 Um, don't compare your experience of oppression or suffering with a person of color's experience

00:55:00.680 with oppression or suffering. Um, don't explain away a person of color's experience with oppression

00:55:10.360 oppression. There, there, there's quite a few. And also I got it pulled up to it. One of them says

00:55:20.000 like, you can't demand proof of a person of color's lived experience. Um, you can't counter their

00:55:26.380 narrative with the experience of another person of color. You have to provide, don't chastise people

00:55:31.920 of color because they express their feelings in a way that you deem inappropriate. So that means that

00:55:37.840 they can wail at you, they can cuss at you, they can yell at you. And, uh, you're not allowed to

00:55:44.100 actually, as a white person in that situation, you're not allowed to, according to this Facebook

00:55:48.300 group, actually say, Hey, that hurt my feelings, or that's not Christ-like, or look, I'm just trying

00:55:53.720 to have a conversation. You actually are instructed to take a step away and to like gather yourself.

00:56:01.520 But basically it's, it's another way of saying like your white tears don't matter. Your white

00:56:06.100 feelings don't matter. Like you can be degraded and denigrated as much as a person of color in this

00:56:11.740 group wants to denigrate you. And since it's coming from a place of sincere lived experience,

00:56:16.140 you white person, your feelings are not valid and shouldn't be brought to the table, I guess.

00:56:20.720 Yeah. It says remain cognizant of the dynamics of white fragility and take note of how it usually

00:56:25.660 shows up in you. I think that's an automatic assumption that if you're white, you're fragile.

00:56:29.840 If you're white and someone comes up to you and now calls you a racist or calls you out of your name

00:56:34.260 and is yelling at you and you cry or you become emotional. Well, that's just because you're

00:56:39.900 fragile. You like, because I'm black, I get to treat you in any kind of way, just because of the

00:56:46.980 color of your skin. But we don't see that in scripture. And this is where I think reconciled

00:56:51.700 really speaks into some of that because we talk about how do we live as family? So how do you treat

00:56:58.020 me? How do I treat you regardless of skin color? This is something that every Christian is called into when

00:57:03.800 they come into the family of God. It's not because you're white, you need to be doing this. And

00:57:09.440 because I'm black, I get to do this or I should be doing this. No, that isn't. That isn't how the

00:57:15.440 Lord participates with us. Yep. How does he participate with us in scripture? And that's what

00:57:22.260 we put forward. Like we look at the New Testament and you see the disciples, cultural enemies, you got

00:57:27.860 the fishermen and the tax collector, but they still had the same expectation.

00:57:32.260 Right. Right. And speaking of tax collector and Nicodemus and a lot of the people that,

00:57:40.860 you know, Jesus interacted with, we hear also this oppressed versus oppressor narrative that Jesus,

00:57:45.780 you know, he hated the oppressors and he only hung out with the oppressed. Well, the tax collector and

00:57:51.080 the Pharisees were considered oppressors during that time. He shared the gospel with them. He called them

00:57:56.000 to repentance in the same way that he called the prostitute and the fishermen to repentance. True.

00:58:02.400 As well. And so he reconciles with the gospel, both the oppressor class in a society, the true

00:58:12.120 oppressor class, people who are actually doing something to oppress people and the oppressed.

00:58:16.880 He reconciles the white and the black, the people of different nationalities, people of different ages,

00:58:22.100 people of different abilities. That's what the body of Christ is. And I love what you are doing

00:58:27.020 to help us walk that out. And I want to ask in one second, just for you to tell us again,

00:58:35.100 and we'll link everything ourselves, but where they can find all of that. I do first, I want to just

00:58:41.260 read this part of chapter of Ephesians four, because you brought it up and I think it is just perfectly

00:58:47.860 encapsulates how we are supposed to treat one another. And I hope that, you know, by God's

00:58:52.460 grace, we're all able to do this better. Certainly myself included. Therefore, having put away

00:58:58.400 falsehood, this is verse 25, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor. So that's the

00:59:04.080 first thing, which is interesting for we are members one of another, be angry and do not sin. Do not let

00:59:09.360 the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil. So right there in verse 26,

00:59:14.900 we see something that goes against the be the bridge rules, be angry and do not sin. Do not let

00:59:19.760 the sun go down on your anger. Give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but

00:59:24.740 rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands so that he may have something to share

00:59:29.440 with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for

00:59:35.300 building up as fits the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear and do not grieve the Holy

00:59:40.760 Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and

00:59:46.000 anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice. I mean, that's it right

00:59:52.340 there. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you.

00:59:59.960 I mean, that's it, right?

01:00:01.620 That is it. Like we, we think that we need to do the work of anti-racism that we need to,

01:00:10.660 you know, lament, repent, legislate, um, like all of these things that get put forward. We think we

01:00:17.080 need to do that. And that that is, um, in some ways the difficult work. My position is that the

01:00:24.340 scriptures are really the difficult work. Like that's, that's the work. Like how much effort do I

01:00:29.460 need to put forth every day to, to forgive someone and not just about racism, but just about anything

01:00:34.620 when I, when I feel offended or, you know, how much effort does it take to actually give grace,

01:00:40.060 to be humble, to repent, to listen well, you know, these are the things that as Christians,

01:00:45.880 we are called to do. It could be easy. I could just go out. Let me just go legislate today. Let me

01:00:51.240 just go, you know, repent of my whateverness to make someone else happy, but that's not what we

01:00:58.820 receive in the scriptures. In the scriptures, we're told what to do. We bear with one another,

01:01:05.000 bear with one another just means keep going. We keep going. We don't leave loud.

01:01:09.380 We keep going with one another. That is the position of the Christian.

01:01:14.680 Yeah, absolutely. And if people don't know, leave loud is a movement. I think that started by

01:01:20.360 Jamar Tisby who wrote the color of compromise, which I know a lot of churches are also reading,

01:01:26.560 where he is encouraging black Christians to leave white churches. And like he said, that is not

01:01:33.660 walking in unity. And thankfully by grace through faith, we can be reconciled through the gospel

01:01:40.060 and walk that out. So if people are interested in your curriculum and how you are using the gospel,

01:01:45.180 using scripture to bring people together, where can they go?

01:01:47.740 You can go to centerforbiblicalunity.com backslash reconciled or just centerforbiblicalunity.com.

01:01:56.840 We will have it, or we do have it right on our homepage. You can order it there. And yes,

01:02:02.340 check it out. There is a way in which we live according to scripture that actually builds

01:02:08.140 unity and helps us to live and walk in unity.

01:02:10.240 Yes. And amen. Well, thank you so much, Monique and Krista for what you guys are doing. It is

01:02:16.100 so, so very needed. I appreciate the clarity amidst the chaos and confusion. So thank you.

01:02:23.140 Thank you so much. And thanks for just the opportunity to come and talk about it.

01:02:26.980 Yes, of course.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 31, 2021

Ep 480 ｜ Better Than ‘Be the Bridge：’ Biblical Unity ｜ Guest： Monique Duson

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