Ep 528 ｜ What Progressive Christianity & Prosperity Gospel Get Wrong About Jesus ｜ Guest： Costi Hinn
Episode Stats
Words per Minute
186.44086
Summary
In this episode, Pastor Kosti Hinn joins us to talk about his new book, "More Than a Healer," and why it's so important that we talk to people who are sucked into the prosperity gospel and present them with that which is actually true.
Transcript
00:00:00.000
Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Today I am talking to Kosti Hinn. He has written multiple
00:00:16.440
books. He has recently written the book More Than a Healer, and we're going to talk about
00:00:23.040
that today. We're going to talk some about social justice. We're going to talk about
00:00:26.280
the prosperity gospel. If you don't know, Kosti Hinn is the nephew of Benny Hinn, the very
00:00:31.160
famous televangelist, prosperity preacher. Our last conversation that we had several months
00:00:36.740
ago, we'll link it in the description to this episode, talked about coming out of the prosperity
00:00:42.200
gospel world and how he came to know the true gospel and how Kosti became a pastor. And so
00:00:51.100
we talked about his testimony and why it's so important that we talk to people who are sucked
00:00:58.660
into the prosperity gospel and present them with that which is actually true. And we're
00:01:04.180
going to talk a little bit more about that today as well as some other hot topic issues. He's
00:01:08.920
such a great person, an awesome author. You're going to enjoy this conversation so much. So
00:01:14.400
without further ado, here is Kosti Hinn. Kosti, thank you so much for joining us again. I'm really
00:01:22.460
excited to talk to you. Last time we talked about your first book or your last book, and now you've
00:01:28.380
written another book, More Than a Healer. Can you tell us why you wrote this book? Yeah, I was going
00:01:35.260
through a season, I think like most people, where 2020 was happening and it became sort of an
00:01:41.500
illustration. People would say that's so 2020 or man, what 2020 couldn't do already that it hasn't
00:01:46.640
done. And so as I was sitting at home and we were holding services here in Arizona, Arizona is kind
00:01:52.440
of like the wild, wild west. So during COVID and some of that stuff, we were freewheeling and going.
00:01:57.660
And I noticed so many people in despair. The world was going crazy. There were race wars, social justice
00:02:03.080
issues, people storming everything. I was just in Atlanta recently right around where protesters smashed
00:02:09.400
in windows. The streets were going crazy. You covered a lot of it really well. And I just started
00:02:14.500
thinking pastorally, we need Jesus, like for real. We need a Jesus awakening. And we do need, you know,
00:02:21.660
to assess justice and social justice the right way. And we need our pastors to stand strong. And we need
00:02:26.780
people like you and others to have courage. And we need to stand for conviction. And we should be
00:02:31.220
involved in the political forum and bringing conservative Christian views to the table and fighting for our
00:02:36.620
freedom. In the midst of all that, though, I wanted to make sure that pastorally, I was guiding people
00:02:42.520
to Jesus through it all. So the goal isn't just to win our ideological war, but the goal is to still
00:02:49.200
glorify Christ and exalt him. And there's a lot of hurting people that were spinning in confusion.
00:02:54.760
They don't have answers. They're not as well studied as you or as me or as other people on these issues.
00:02:59.200
And they're going, who do I believe? What do I do? The world is spinning. And I felt like people
00:03:04.120
needed a Jesus awakening and a reminder of who is really on the throne.
00:03:08.020
Yeah. And tell us about the title and why you chose the title. Because when I see it,
00:03:13.700
I think about your background, obviously, coming from the name it and claim it prosperity gospel
00:03:20.140
in which you grew up, in which maybe God was seen not just as this immediate healer,
00:03:25.220
but also as someone who is going to provide you with the financial material blessings that you earn
00:03:34.080
by declaring it, by manifesting it, by your faith, whatever it is. So when I saw that title,
00:03:43.280
that's kind of where my mind went, knowing your background. But can you kind of give us some context?
00:03:49.280
Totally. It all plays into where people were naming and claiming the COVID virus gone or naming and
00:03:56.620
claiming and prophesying whoever was going to be president. And people name and claim their job
00:04:00.800
promotion, their Bentley, their bigger house. They shout out into the airwaves like Joel Osteen will tell
00:04:06.660
them, you know, just profess it and confess it and then you'll possess it. And everyone's going to Jesus
00:04:12.560
to get what they want from them. He's like a magic genie. And if you say this or believe this or give
00:04:19.920
this, he'll do it. And I thought, yeah, Jesus is completely a healer. The Bible paints him as a
00:04:26.060
healer and he can heal our nation and he can heal your financial issues as long as you're not racking
00:04:31.480
your credit card and then expecting God to pay it off. But true poverty and challenges that you're
00:04:35.660
going, Lord, I need you to help and heal this season in our life. He can heal a marriage. He can heal the
00:04:40.920
body. He could heal all these things. But people are going to him for always what he can do. They
00:04:46.080
want the healing, the healing, the healing. And this book is pointing them to the healer. We went
00:04:50.520
through that personally. Three months into our third son's, our third child's life, our son Timothy
00:04:57.820
was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And I remember thinking, wow, we're actually going to live
00:05:01.620
what I've been preaching about God being sovereign and this world not truly being our home and about
00:05:09.140
Jesus still being good even when things are not, whether in our country or in our own lives. And so
00:05:15.680
it was a personal kind of writing project out of my heart, pastorally and practically in our home,
00:05:24.000
around our community, and I think in our world today where people are chasing Jesus for all that he can
00:05:29.620
do. And they are forgetting all the other facets of who he is. So chapter one, he is healer.
00:05:35.440
Absolutely. But also we want to be careful, demanding that he heal and saying he has to,
00:05:41.520
because we named it and claimed it and had enough faith and see that he's still hope. He's still
00:05:46.300
peace. He's still good. He's still justice. He's still sovereign, even in the midst of all the
00:05:51.340
craziness going on around us. When you were dealing with your son's cancer and you, as you said,
00:06:01.780
you recognized, oh, wow, I'm going to actually live out the thing that I have been preaching about
00:06:07.960
for a while. What did that look like practically on a day-to-day basis for you? What did your prayers
00:06:13.820
look like? Was there a struggle there when you know, you know that God's sovereign, you know that
00:06:20.380
he's still good. That's not dependent upon our circumstance. And yet when it's your child, I mean,
00:06:24.260
that is every parent's worst nightmare to say, how, you know, how could God let this happen while still
00:06:30.600
knowing that he's still faithful and merciful. So, so what did that kind of coming to terms look like
00:06:37.660
for you guys? Yeah, I'd love to say that I was this stalwart warrior and had zero emotion while
00:06:43.700
my wife was a basket case. And I was just a pillar of strength and never had a doubt in my mind.
00:06:48.120
Here's the reality. The moment my wife walked into the kitchen with the report, she began to cry.
00:06:53.580
And when she said the C word, I began to tear up as well. I sat down on the kitchen table chair.
00:06:58.960
She sat down on my lap. I held her. She did cry. And the only things I could think of were to say,
00:07:04.240
we weren't going to get out of this life unscathed and we're going to live what I've been preaching.
00:07:08.800
But I had the same fear. I had the same concerns. And yet when you look at scripture and when you truly
00:07:15.080
believe what we profess to believe, the emotions, they come and go, but what you know remains. And so
00:07:23.240
I had normal and natural thoughts. Okay, God, I might bury my son on this side of heaven.
00:07:29.700
He may not bury me. Be our strength, be our peace, be our hope, make it, make our faith real,
00:07:36.080
make, make us strong in our moment of weakness because you're our strength. And then there were
00:07:40.440
other honest fears. And I'll share this with you, Allie. My family, I remember thinking, oh, great.
00:07:46.580
I know what they're going to say. Because I used to say this to people. Your son got struck with
00:07:52.180
cancer because you touched the Lord's anointed. You called out the prosperity gospel. You called
00:07:56.760
out Uncle Benny. You called out this guy. So you're talking about like your, which part of
00:08:02.360
your family, just for the people who might not be even familiar with your background?
00:08:06.120
Yeah. So my uncle is Benny Hinn, the guy in the white suit who does a lot of the prosperity gospel
00:08:10.400
stuff. And these TV preachers, you've seen it, I've seen it. If people haven't,
00:08:15.000
just Google this, they will shout at cameras on the TV. Kenneth Copeland, he hit Inside Edition
00:08:19.800
this last year. I mean, a lot of them still going strong. They will look in the camera and they'll
00:08:24.220
tell you, don't you dare call out the anointed. Don't you dare question. Don't you dare touch the
00:08:29.700
Lord's anointed. They'll use kind of a Bible phrase, but twisted. And they'll say, if you do,
00:08:36.080
you will be cursed. Cancer will strike your home. Poverty will find you. They do all these threats
00:08:41.200
and it's a form of spiritual abuse. Don't come at me. Don't you say anything. It's a mafia gag
00:08:47.000
order. So you were afraid that your own family who are still in that world would say the reason
00:08:52.800
that your son has cancer is because you have criticized those health and wealth preachers,
00:08:57.440
including your uncle. Yeah. And right away, as much as the, oh, great thoughts came, I thought,
00:09:04.220
no, no, no. What have we studied? What do we know? Throughout the New Testament, Paul the apostle
00:09:08.540
called out false teachers. And these are verified false teachers. You look at what the Bible teaches
00:09:13.460
and you look at what they teach and they're completely opposite. And we did an episode on
00:09:17.760
that. I would encourage people just go to Ali's YouTube channel. We dove into that and made it
00:09:21.780
clear. And at the same time, Jesus called out the Pharisees who were adding to the words of God and
00:09:28.180
putting burdens on people they couldn't even carry. And so I go back to what I know in the midst of the
00:09:33.260
emotions and think, no, no matter what they say, it's a great opportunity to say, nope, God's good
00:09:38.400
still. Nope. God's sovereign. But let me go one layer further in the conversation. The Lord opened
00:09:43.760
the door for my wife and I to even walk through family members and friends in the televangelist
00:09:49.960
prosperity gospel world who have cancer, who have heart conditions, who have wives that have cancer,
00:09:56.180
who have had issues they've hidden. And so without being sensationalistic and without being aggressive,
00:10:01.060
we just sat there and said, what about this person? What about this one? What about this one?
00:10:06.180
Don't you guys see that Job was righteous and he got hit? Jesus was crucified. All the apostles were
00:10:12.360
martyred except for John, but he withered away on Patmos. Everybody who lives godly for Christ is
00:10:19.160
going to be persecuted and suffer. Do you really think that this is because I called out complete
00:10:24.800
abuse and those were neat conversations? And so again, emotions come, but we stick to what we know
00:10:30.940
and the Lord opened some doors. Those weren't always comfortable conversations, but thank the
00:10:37.120
Yeah. He used that suffering for his glory, which is the promise that we have. Not that life is going
00:10:42.760
to be easier, that we're going to have material possessions or material prosperity, but that God is
00:10:49.160
going to use the suffering that is sure for his glory and for our ultimate good. And that's the thing
00:10:58.160
that we have to hold on to. And I do wonder, what is typically the response of those who do believe
00:11:05.240
that God's favor equals material prosperity? What you just laid out is so clear and so biblical. It's
00:11:13.240
hard for me to understand how someone could even deny that and say that it's not biblical. What is the
00:11:19.300
typical response of you pointing out Job, the apostles, the suffering of God's faithful servants?
00:11:26.500
I think in my experience, the responses are usually emotional. And so people will say,
00:11:33.120
well, you just, you don't understand, or you're just jaded, or you're just, and so it gets a little
00:11:38.500
ad hominem and character assaults. But some people will try to make the argument from the other side
00:11:44.020
and say, well, Solomon was wealthy. What about Solomon? And David was a king and this, but I would
00:11:48.980
still say, okay, but trouble found them. Solomon went through incredible suffering and turmoil.
00:11:58.240
David, I mean, Solomon blew it. We could just sit and do a whole episode on his issues with sin and
00:12:03.360
too many women and all of this, but God gave him wisdom and riches and he still messed the whole thing
00:12:07.700
up. And then the kingdom divides. David, sure, a wealthy king commits adultery. God reprimands him,
00:12:14.600
loses a son. And then Psalm 51, he says, against you and only you have I sinned. And he repents.
00:12:20.760
And then the broken and contrite heart, the Lord honors. So I don't care. I don't care who you
00:12:25.840
mention. All of them, every single person suffers and endures trial. And so I try to engage people on
00:12:33.440
that level. And then some people just say, well, I refuse to be negative. I refuse to give into that
00:12:40.420
spirit of unbelief. I will prosper. I am the head. And what they're doing is they're repeating
00:12:45.760
what they saw on the TV program with Osteen or that, you know, their Oprah Winfrey one-liner that
00:12:53.040
they throw out there. And they hold onto those because they don't know the scriptures. They don't
00:12:59.180
have truth. They don't have the healer. They're just chasing the healing. And so that's why we do what
00:13:04.680
we do is we're trying to get into the minds of those people, which is where spiritual warfare
00:13:09.100
happens. They are stuck in a mindset that dictates how they believe. And that is spiritual warfare.
00:13:18.500
The devil loves that stuff. He loves messing with their minds and throwing up material things
00:13:22.700
to lure them in. Yeah. And there are two different kinds of people professing Christians that it sounds
00:13:29.720
like you're talking about. Because kind of at the beginning of this conversation, you touched on
00:13:34.820
the professing progressive Christians, as they might call themselves, those who believe that Jesus was
00:13:41.000
some sort of activist, that Jesus justifies their, you know, left-wing social justice position. And then
00:13:49.080
you've got people on the other side, which I don't really know necessarily their political
00:13:55.300
affiliation. Maybe most of them do identify as Republicans or conservatives. That seems to be
00:14:00.420
the case. But they see Jesus as someone, like you said, who is just going to give them things.
00:14:08.020
And so the book that you wrote, does it address kind of both sides of that fallacy? The progressive
00:14:15.300
Christian who says, well, you know, Jesus is just an activist who wants me to do what I want to do.
00:14:20.220
And then the other side that says, Jesus is just a genie who's going to give me what I want him to
00:14:25.580
give me. Do you kind of talk about both of those, how they differ and what they share?
00:14:31.460
Yeah. So there were two kind of bookends for me, the front half, which locks in on that he's a healer,
00:14:39.100
but not always the way we want. And then the goodness of God, I put some charts in there and
00:14:43.520
showcase people and their pain. And then the purpose of it, that's for the crowd that says, you know,
00:14:49.020
it's always God's will to heal. It's always God's will. He just wants me this. So we deal with that
00:14:52.960
at the front end. But to be honest, one of the most exciting chapters for me was a chapter called
00:14:58.520
He is Justice. And I define justice biblically, and it isn't smashing in the windows of your
00:15:06.220
downtown city center and looting. And it's not, you know, overthrowing every form of authority and,
00:15:14.440
you know, going into classrooms and redefining gender. It is a Jesus kind of justice. So number
00:15:20.480
one, I talk about the justice of God and his wrath pointed at the center. And the justice we truly need
00:15:26.820
is the justification through Christ. And so we put Christ front and center. But then I talk about all
00:15:32.620
the biblical ways that we can seek justice as Christians, because you and I both know, we're not
00:15:37.600
just going to sit around and go, well, let the world burn. We're not going to figure it out. We've been
00:15:41.100
fighting for freedom. And we've been standing for those who are aborted, the unborn, the innocent,
00:15:48.280
bloodshed over the last decades in our country. There are many forms of justice that Christians
00:15:54.260
can and should fight for. And so I go through 10 marks of biblical justice, or what I like to call the
00:16:00.760
Jesus style justice. And to be honest, it's going to mess with people. It's going to mess with
00:16:05.920
the extreme left that want to go way too far into justice. And to be honest, it might even mess with
00:16:13.700
some people on the extreme right that have made up their own definitions of justice in the name of
00:16:18.560
some sort of spiritual crusade. But it brings it back to, I think, what you, what myself, what so
00:16:25.700
many others are trying to lobby for when people say, oh, so this and that, well, then you're just a
00:16:31.560
racist. Oh, you don't believe this or this. And then you bring up abortion and they say, well,
00:16:35.680
what about this form and this form? And everybody wants to run off to the branches. I just wanted
00:16:40.600
to keep us on the trunk. Here's what scripture says. I know you got your own ideas. I know you
00:16:44.960
got your own definition of oppression. And I know you got your own definition of what whiteness is and
00:16:49.700
white privilege. And I know you're having a good time overthrowing authority because you're tired of
00:16:53.660
whatever system you think is the system. And you're trying to get yours now and get paid. But listen to
00:16:58.060
me. This is what Jesus says justice is. You and I don't have the right to try to redefine it because
00:17:04.480
we're going into some Marxist theory and getting crazy in 2020 and 2021. So I, with respect to everyone's
00:17:11.500
views, read the chapter and wrestle with scripture. It's not my own idea.
00:17:20.280
When you mention the left going too far into justice, what you mean, and I think, and what I also
00:17:27.200
mean too, is not that they are just so passionate and overzealous about justice, but actually that
00:17:33.040
they've redefined it to mean something that God doesn't actually define it as. Justice is
00:17:39.360
righteousness. There is only one true righteous one, and that is God. So He created justice. And we
00:17:44.440
have the privilege. I actually, you know, talked to a Christian leader once. She's a very popular
00:17:49.320
Christian leader. And we had some disagreements about so-called racial justice and social justice.
00:17:53.760
And, you know, I brought to her attention, you know, this thing that was said, I don't see it
00:17:58.500
aligning with scripture. It doesn't actually seem biblical. And she actually said to me,
00:18:02.620
well, what if, and I'm telling you, this is a popular non-progressive Christian teacher. She said,
00:18:08.400
well, what if we don't think about justice in terms of biblical or unbiblical? How about we just
00:18:12.740
think of it as non-biblical? And that is really, I mean, that's upsetting to me. This is a Bible teacher
00:18:19.440
who has lots and lots of influence. We are so privileged that the Bible does explicitly talk about
00:18:26.040
justice so clearly and so much that we don't have to have a non-biblical, secular view of it. I mean,
00:18:34.220
it's impossible. So, I mean, I guess my question to you is, I mean, this is a person who would consider
00:18:39.540
herself a conservative teacher, a conservative Christian who a lot of people follow, and yet
00:18:45.240
that is her view of justice, I guess, apparently, and how we should approach it. Like, do you see
00:18:51.100
a problem within not just the far-left church, but just mainstream evangelicalism, mainstream
00:18:57.360
Christianity of pastors and teachers not being able to approach the subject of justice in a way that is
00:19:03.360
biblically clear? I see that problem. And so I want to hear your take on it.
00:19:08.680
Yeah, we have an authority of scripture issue. So in the list that I put in the book, one of them is
00:19:12.800
love your neighbor. Okay, everybody knows that that comes from the Bible. Love the Lord your God
00:19:19.140
with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Then love your neighbor as yourself. This is
00:19:22.440
the greatest commandment. This is Jesus making it clear. The problem is when we define love your
00:19:28.160
neighbor as the way we want to, but I can't. I have to love my neighbor the way scripture would direct,
00:19:33.840
which is going to be first to love them in truth, and second, to see needs and meet needs,
00:19:39.580
like the Good Samaritan. All the religious people stepped over the beaten up Jewish man,
00:19:43.940
and the Good Samaritan, even though he can't stand the Jews, says, ah, I should probably help this guy.
00:19:48.320
That's just general kindness to humanity. No one is lobbying that we abandon that. The problem is when
00:19:55.060
we give in to the cultural cries. The problem is when, well, that are unbiblical cries, and that are
00:20:01.000
just a push to overthrow authority. And then the problem ultimately is when the authority of scripture
00:20:05.560
goes out the window, like your friend who says, well, what if we didn't get into all the biblical,
00:20:09.820
unbiblical, but we just, and then we're off the reservation. There is a major problem. And here's
00:20:16.560
what I can only surmise, is there's two groups. You have the darker motives, which this is just like
00:20:23.220
any category in scripture. You've got like false teachers that are genuinely trying to get rich.
00:20:27.720
I think you have people who are in the justice wars to get paid. And I think of that when I look
00:20:36.240
at various teachers, and I look at people go on YouTube, and these prominent, once really clear,
00:20:41.800
faithful, gospel-centered guys are getting on their whatever program, and they're shouting about
00:20:47.760
reparations, and they're saying, gold, hallelujah, like Eric Mason did. And he goes, and land,
00:20:53.400
hallelujah, and they want their retribution. Why are we saying gold, hallelujah, land, hallelujah,
00:20:58.120
like it's about getting rich? If you want justice, let there be justice. But if you want more stuff,
00:21:03.800
well, then now we're into some prosperity gospel that's just using justice to get there. But then
00:21:07.880
I think you have this whole other crowd that are genuinely broken and hurting for humanity,
00:21:12.500
and they want to see justice. And that's the crowd that I would say I want to engage and form the
00:21:19.640
approach through Scripture, like you're saying. And then we all submit together, not because someone's
00:21:25.320
convincing, and not because we're scared of being called white, privileged, racist, or because we're
00:21:31.760
scared of people slandering us. But truly, we want truth, and we want true justice. So yeah, left,
00:21:38.540
right, all that, it can get extreme. I think in the end, we have what has always been an issue regarding
00:21:45.140
the authority of Scripture. Last thing I'll throw out to you, Allie. Do you remember kind of church
00:21:49.300
history gone by, but not that old, the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy, and guys like R.C. Sproul
00:21:55.320
and John MacArthur fighting for that? I think that was like in the 90s or 80s? I don't remember.
00:22:01.060
It was even back before. Yeah, these wars were going on kind of through the 70s even and into the 80s.
00:22:06.040
But what for us now, you and I, we're younger, so that's like 30 years. That's church history now,
00:22:11.320
the 40, 50 years. But the issue was authority. Here's how I think Satan works. He is not very
00:22:19.260
creative. He's just sneaky. He goes, let me take the same old issue. Let me undermine the authority
00:22:28.060
of what Scripture says. Let me just pick a new way to do it. So Eve in the garden, did God really say,
00:22:34.620
Eve? Oh, surely you won't die. Eat the fruit. Go for it. Inerrancy of Scripture, ecumenical
00:22:41.300
councils, ecumenical partnerships, all with the Catholic Church and this church and that church,
00:22:46.420
and things start getting a little squirrely. And guys go, well, we want to all just kind of go
00:22:50.380
along to get along. Guys like Sproul and MacArthur and others go, no, this is what it is. And people
00:22:55.460
attack the historicity and the inerrancy of Scripture. They stand. And then now it's just a new
00:23:02.840
face on, I think, what is an old strategy. And Satan's using social justice wars and the issues
00:23:10.380
of our day to attack. And so what we're watching is the result of 30 years of illiteracy, biblically.
00:23:18.140
We're watching the result of 30 years of playing church in the American church and going to your
00:23:24.420
Rick Warren purpose-driven life, happy-go-lucky Disneyland campus and letting the pastor punch your
00:23:30.940
ticket to heaven, stick you on the train and drive you all there and write books and have an awesome
00:23:35.940
whatever. And then you're looking at your 21-year-old going, what do you, I don't get it. Raise a fist
00:23:41.640
for what? Oh, okay. I just want you to like me still as your parent because I have no spine and I
00:23:46.380
don't know Scripture. And I raised you by giving you to the youth pastor that had skinny jeans and
00:23:51.780
emo hair. And this is supposed to work. And I'm not being insulting. This is reality. We grew up in
00:23:57.460
this. We were this. So I want to lobby again for the authority of Scripture, truth being the filter
00:24:04.420
through Scripture, that which I pass everything through, and then submit and rest in the Lord.
00:24:11.760
Yeah. This really isn't about, and I want people to hear this, this really isn't us talking about
00:24:16.340
Democrat versus Republican or even left versus right. We're talking about all different kinds of people
00:24:22.780
really that could be on either side of the aisle, especially when it comes to things like the
00:24:27.380
prosperity gospel. That's not necessarily a political ideology. What you're talking about
00:24:32.640
is the authority of Scripture and getting to who Jesus actually is, not just for what He gives us,
00:24:38.640
but who He is. And who He is and reliance on His authority and His Word is what informs us on
00:24:45.600
these very important issues. I mean, justice is super important. True oppression is really important.
00:24:50.840
Knowing what restoration and true reconciliation looks like, those things are really important.
00:24:56.500
And then healing is important to people. People go through suffering. People need some kind of
00:25:02.120
financial help and material help. All of these things are real. I think what Satan does, and as you said,
00:25:07.560
not a creative way, in just different ways, in different forms that he's done forever,
00:25:13.120
is he takes things that are good. He takes concepts that are good. And instead of saying,
00:25:18.500
oh, you say that you want justice, well, I'm going to tempt you to, you know, go towards injustice. He
00:25:25.740
just inverts it. He manipulates it. All he has to say is, did God really say what justice is? Did God
00:25:32.680
really say that about suffering? Did God really say that about X, Y, Z? And then as you said, okay,
00:25:39.160
well, now we're in the non-biblical territory. We go off to the races towards things that are completely
00:25:44.480
anti-gospel and anti-biblical, and then people wonder, how the heck did I wind up here? How did
00:25:49.520
I start deconstructing my faith? When did I end up completely leaving the faith? Well, it started
00:25:54.940
with saying, did God really say, and you agreeing with Satan, that maybe he really didn't mean what
00:26:03.100
Yeah. And let me for a moment speak to your friend, if they happen to see this video, and
00:26:08.000
even some of my friends who I love and I talk to privately, that I would call now religious
00:26:13.560
entrepreneurs. They're religious entrepreneurs. You're scared to lose your platform. You're scared
00:26:18.380
to lose all your followers. You're scared to lose your conference invite. You're scared to lose the
00:26:22.440
viewership. You're scared to lose the Instagram clout. You don't answer to Instagram followers. You
00:26:28.560
don't answer to the conference honorarium. You don't answer to the big dog that's here on earth trying
00:26:33.640
to build their platform. We answer to Christ. So if you're going to stand up and say, I'm a leader
00:26:40.280
for Christ, well, you better be following Christ. And I mean that in love. I'm not going to name names
00:26:45.420
in this portion, but you know who they are, Allie. So do I. There's this whole wave of people that are
00:26:51.020
chameleons. They start blending in wherever they go, and they're after one thing to build their thing.
00:26:59.380
And I get it. They'll say, well, I want to glorify God through this, and I want to be able to take
00:27:03.540
the gospel in the places that normally it won't go. No problem. Get the invite to the big conference,
00:27:09.360
stand up on the stage, and do your job so well that they either get saved or never invite you back.
00:27:15.180
But we answer to Jesus. The judgment seat of Christ is coming, and I think you've done a great
00:27:20.700
job living in almost two worlds. You go into the political forum, and you bring it, but you're always
00:27:25.140
pointing back to the glory of God. You swing into the more church circles, and you bring clear ideology
00:27:31.800
and clear conviction to that. In the end, I know for you and getting to talk with you and see your
00:27:37.760
resume of faith out in the open is you're living for Christ. And that's how we all ought to be. So
00:27:43.500
to encourage those of you watching, trying to figure all this out, and maybe some of you that are
00:27:48.100
on the, at the crossroad of what to do now, who cares? Abandon it all so long as you're pleasing Christ.
00:27:56.500
And I do think, just thinking about the people I know in my life who are genuine believers,
00:28:05.920
they're not false teachers, they're not false believers. I know, I see the fruit, but who are
00:28:11.480
confused about some of the things that we're talking about, who might think that there is some
00:28:14.760
third way, there's some non-biblical option to looking at these justice issues or what seem like
00:28:20.400
these secular issues. They are genuine believers, and I don't think that they are selfish, but there
00:28:25.620
is, like you said, there is this component of people pleasing and being afraid that, okay,
00:28:32.300
if they truly are biblical about whatever this controversial topic is, then they'll be seen as
00:28:37.160
unempathetic. That's the huge one, or a bigot, or whatever it is. That really is their fear. And it
00:28:43.620
comes from a place originally of love, but I think sometimes it leads to a place of compromise. So just
00:28:49.560
giving the most benefit of the doubt that I would also want to receive if they thought that I was
00:28:53.300
an error, I do think that's a motivation for a lot of people. But I would say, I would direct them to
00:28:58.100
you and to your book and to the words that you just said to bring them back to the center to
00:29:02.780
what is actually true. Yeah, the third way is not about redefining truth and, well, here's something
00:29:10.320
clear and here's something clear. Well, I choose this. The third way is not trying to redefine some middle
00:29:14.800
of the road. Right now, you go middle of the road on too much, you're going to get run over,
00:29:17.760
and probably for good reason because you're not taking a stand. The third way, if we want to have
00:29:22.240
a third way, here's a third way. There's indifference and there's hatred. Indifference
00:29:26.620
is whatever, who cares? Hatred is, oh, I'm going to get them all. Okay, here's a third way. Love.
00:29:33.500
Don't be angry. Be kind. But it doesn't need to lead to compromise on truth. The third way is just
00:29:40.940
be like the good Samaritan. Don't be indifferent and don't be a, excuse me to use the word, but
00:29:47.000
don't be a jerk. Don't be nasty. You don't need to be angry. Like it's your work. Here's a third way.
00:29:52.380
Be loving and kind, but be clear and truthful. Speak hard truth through tear-stained eyes. But
00:29:57.720
the third way is not, well, let's not take a position. No, no, no, no, no. Just be loving.
00:30:03.940
But realize like Warren Wiersbe once so helpfully said, he said, you know, uh, love without truth,
00:30:11.620
sorry, truth without love is brutality. Love without truth is hypocrisy. One of my favorite
00:30:17.440
quotes. I'm a hypocrite if I don't bring the truth. And then I'm just brutal if I'm angry. So
00:30:21.340
there's your third way, but it doesn't involve compromise on truth. Yeah. And just to bring it
00:30:25.880
back, that's exactly what Jesus demonstrates. That's what he embodies in his ministry. There are
00:30:31.420
things that he says that offend me as a sinner. And yet he does so because he loves us. And that
00:30:37.280
is essentially what your book brings us back to. So where can everyone find it?
00:30:42.660
Amazon, Barnes and Noble, uh, christianbook.com. There's audible version, Kindle version. It's
00:30:49.000
there online and we appreciate you guys picking it up, sharing it with your church, a friend. I'll add
00:30:53.680
one more element we didn't see coming. Um, a, a large church just purchased, um, about 300 copies for
00:31:01.060
all of their team leaders in their counseling departments across. They have, they have several
00:31:05.400
different campuses and pastors here and there in their network. And so one of the encouraging
00:31:09.660
things there is this is a great way to learn how to talk to people who are hopeless. And so some
00:31:16.020
counselors have started to use it as a guide for here's how you approach people in pain. And so not
00:31:22.140
just another story or testimony about prosperity gospel or some, you know, rail job on false teachers.
00:31:27.760
I want this book to reach the hearts of people everywhere.
00:31:30.660
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Kosti. Thank you for joining us and thank you for writing it.
00:31:35.420
Thankful for you, Allie. Keep up the great work.