Ep 532 ｜ The Case Against Julius Jones ｜ Guest： Sean Fitzgerald
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Summary
In this episode of Relatable, we are joined by Sean Fitzgerald, host of the YouTube channel, "The Actual Justice Warrior," to discuss the case of Julius Jones, the Oklahoma man who was sentenced to death for a crime he didn't commit.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. As promised, today we are talking about Julius
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Jones. He was the Oklahoma man who was on death row and his death sentence was commuted by the
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governor after there was a loud protest from the criminal justice crowd and specifically the
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Innocence Project. Also Kim Kardashian, NBA stars, Viola Davis, who all advocated on behalf of
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Julius Jones's innocence, claiming that he was framed. Today we are talking to Sean Fitzgerald.
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He, or Fitzgerald, maybe that's how he pronounces it. He has a YouTube channel,
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actual justice warrior where he breaks down these cases and he has combed through all of the
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facts of this case and he contends that Julius Jones, way beyond a reasonable doubt, is actually
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guilty. The conversation that we're having is not about the death penalty per se. I have done
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a theological episode on the death penalty and we will link that episode in the description to this
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episode so you can go listen to it. We are primarily talking about whether or not Julius Jones is
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innocent and the machine behind trying to contend for someone's innocence that is driven primarily
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by people like the Innocence Project. The reason why this case came to prominence and why you know
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Julius Jones's name is because there was a three-episode documentary that was produced by Viola Davis that
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aired on ABC in 2018 called The Last Defense and it was put together and that's mostly what people who
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say that that Julius Jones was innocent, that's mostly what people are referring to. They're referring to
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not the court transcripts, not the actual evidence that's presented or not presented. They are looking at
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this particular documentary. A documentary can be very informative, but it tells a story that is put
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together by a person who may have a particular narrative. So it's not actual documentation or a primary
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source if you're trying to understand a particular case or any particular event. It might be informative in some
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ways, but it's not enough to tell us what the truth of a case is. And so that's why we are doing, why we are
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having this conversation today, doing this episode today. And we are also going to talk about what
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happened in Waukesha with Daryl Brooks, who has been charged with murder of six people. And we're
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going to talk about the media coverage of that, why they're not calling it terrorism, why they aren't
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talking about the motives at all. It's very strange. Probably it seems like race and social justice and
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so-called equity are all factors in that. So we're going to get into all of this today. Might be a
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contentious, controversial episode, but that's what we do. It's a particular perspective, and I hope that
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you learned something from it and can appreciate it. And without further ado, here is our new friend,
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Sean. Sean, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?
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I'm Sean Fitzgerald. I run a channel called The Actual Justice Warrior on YouTube,
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where I cover criminal justice related topics and political topics. That's about it. It's not a big
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thing. No. Well, actually, it is a big thing because there has been such a fierce debate for a long time,
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but especially over the past year, I would say after the George Floyd incident, people debating what
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justice looks like. And we've heard this term as J.W. Social Justice Warrior for a while,
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and there seems to be such a stark disagreement on what justice actually is. So why did you start
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your channel and why did you name it Actual Justice Warrior? Well, I started my channel because my
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background in terms of my education is in criminal justice. Like I hold two degrees in the subject. So
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it was something that I was always interested in. And as far back as I can remember, the media was
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really bad at reporting criminal justice related stories. So essentially, a lot of what I do is
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I'll just read the actual case documents of a case that's in the media and try to correct terrible
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reporting. Yeah. So let's talk about some of that terrible reporting, or at least in your estimation.
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Let's talk about Julius Jones, because that's how I found you. I think that maybe I had followed you
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already, and I had seen some of your tweets, but I watched your videos on Julius Jones, and you were
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one of the only people I saw that was actually covering this thoroughly. So let's start from
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the very beginning. Feel free to talk as long as you want to include as many details as you want to
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a lot of people just don't know what this case is, who Julius Jones is, why he didn't get the death
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penalty when he was supposed to. So let's start from the beginning. Who is Julius Jones? Why are you
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interested in this case? So from way back in the beginning, Julius Jones is a serial carjacker
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who attempted to carjack one Paul Howe on July 28th, 1999. And when Paul Howe opened his door in
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his parents' driveway, Julius Jones shot him in the head one time, killing him in front of his children.
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And that is what is being, let me just say, that's what's being contended. That's,
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you believe that the evidence points to that. But of course, the Innocence Project, Kim Kardashian,
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a lot of people on the other side, they would say, they say that it's not Julius Jones. But this is
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your assertion based on what you've looked at, correct? Right, based on the evidence. This is
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what was laid out by the prosecution way back when, when they tried Julius Jones and convicted him for
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the murder. So after Paul Howe was shot and killed, the Howe family, which is Megan, Toby, Paul Howe's
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sister, and the two daughters fled into the home, Julius Jones fired upon them as they were fleeing
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into the home. Then he got into the suburban, backed out, crushed Paul Howe's legs and drove away.
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Now, the Jones defense team contends that it was not Julius Jones, that it was actually
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who was ended up being his co-defendant, Christopher Jordan, who shot Paul Howe and stole the car.
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But the evidence against Julius Jones is overwhelming. And the evidence is actually
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greater today when he got the the commutation than it was back in the day. So there was there
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was a red bandana that was worn by the shooter that was described by Paul Howe's sister. And the
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Jones defense team contended the whole time that Jones wasn't the shooter. There's even a clip of
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his daughter. His sister saw the bandana. OK, got it. She was in the passenger seat because Megan
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Toby's the only adult eyewitness to the case. Like the two daughters did unfortunately see what
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happened to Paul Howe, but they weren't testifying in court or anything like that. So the sister
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identifies this bandana. They find the bandana inside Julius Jones's bedroom. The murder weapon
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is wrapped in it. They also find a white shirt with black trim on it, which was like black trim around
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the neck, which is very underreported. It's a very distinct shirt that was described by Toby.
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And it was also found in Julius Jones's bedroom. And the defense, like one of their big proponents,
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one of the things that they argue in their documentary, which is called The Last Defense,
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is that the banana should have been tested for DNA back in 1999. It was tested for DNA in around 2017,
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2018. And despite what the defense claimed about Jones never wearing bandanas and having nothing to do
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with this crime, the DNA actually did match Julius Jones, which should have confirmed the verdict
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and ended all this. But it didn't. And they continue. They just don't even talk about the
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bandana anymore. It's one of the most amazing things. That's what I was going to say. What do
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they say when DNA evidence proved that it was his bandana or that he had been wearing the bandana,
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at least at some point? What did the defense argue? So they have two strategies or they had two
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strategies. The first was to ignore the existence of the bandana. So if you look at any of the
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Innocence Project propaganda, it always starts with Julius Jones maintains his innocence, which is
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like, OK, the guy says he didn't do it. The DNA says he did. But Julius says he didn't.
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And they don't bring it up. And then when you push them on the bandana, they start playing games
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with their like, oh, well, that was the major profile. There's these minor profiles that are
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DNA science. Could not like it could only detect was human. Like it couldn't detect who it was.
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And they'll make the case that that could have been the actual real killer on some of the minor
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profiles there. But it's like it's it's nonsensical because Jones claimed. And as recently as in his
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pardon and parole hearing that he didn't even wear any bandanas at the time of the shooting.
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So the fact that he's the major contributor is like to me, that locks it up for him.
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Also, is the type of DNA that you couldn't test for back in 1999, which means that Chris
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Jordan, his his very his lacking in intelligence co-defendant could not have planted this type
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of DNA. It's like contact DNA, like touch DNA, let alone removed it because DNA scientists
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didn't know this existed in 99. But it's not just that there's like eyewitnesses that saw
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Jordan and Jones 15 minutes before the murder. And these are like independent eyewitnesses.
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There are witnesses that saw him like 30 minutes after the murder. He's seen on surveillance
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dumping the car. Like there's a bunch of different things that would lead us to believe that Jones
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is guilty. And yet the campaign just progresses.
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Now, does the Innocence Project maintain that it was actually Jordan who committed this crime?
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OK. And is that how they say, well, that's you know, do they say that Jordan somehow framed
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Julius Jones? Is that the is that the argument?
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Yeah. So in in the documentary, they make the case that Christopher Jordan planted the bandana
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and the firearm in Julius Jones's bedroom because they spent the night together.
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But the thing is, is, again, he would not have been able to plant and remove his own DNA from
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So Jordan's DNA was not found at all on the bandana.
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No, he was he was excluded as a contributor. And the match for Julius Jones, the other trick
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that they'll use is to say that Jones didn't his DNA wasn't technically a match because,
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you know, DNA nerds like the scientists don't actually say match.
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They give you odds of whether or not it could be somebody else. Right.
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And they'll say the odds of another African-American contributing to the sample besides Julius Jones
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are one in one hundred and ten million in the African-American population.
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In 1999, the the African-American population was thirty five million people.
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So you would need something like four times the African-American population and for the real
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killer, quote unquote, to have access to Julius Jones's bedroom to plant it.
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So it's statistically ridiculous. But they'll harp on like little things like that.
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And they'll say, oh, the DNA wasn't technically a match because the lab doesn't use the term
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match. But for all intents and purposes, it's a match.
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I want to go through some of what the Innocence Project is positing, because if you just listen
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And then I think the natural question is, well, then why?
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If it is so clear, if there seems to be some video evidence, at least of what happened after,
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if there is DNA evidence, why even try to raise any contention about this verdict?
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So here's what the Innocence Project says on their Web site.
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Maybe not to all of them, because there's a lot of contingents.
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But they say that Julius Jones was at home having dinner with his parents and sister at
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the time of the murder and that his legal team failed to present his alibi at his original
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trial. His trial attorneys did not call Mr. Jones or his family to the stand.
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So what do you have to say about his alibi and perhaps why his defense attorneys didn't
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So so so the this alibi is the alibi that I call the big cookie alibi, because it basically
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They say that he was at home eating spaghetti at nine o'clock playing Monopoly and they were
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So his attorneys, one of which I've spoken to, David McKenzie, actually signed a sworn statement
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and his other attorney did as well, that Jones told them independently that he was not home
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On top of that, they tried to produce an independent witness, a woman called Brenda Cujo, to back
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up this alibi because they were like, she's you know, they're not going to believe just
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the family, especially against all the other evidence.
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She had like impeccable credibility in terms of the court of law.
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So she told the investigators for the Jones defense team that she went to Kinkos before
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So they asked her if she had anything to verify that she produced a receipt dating
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her trip to Kinkos, thus dating the alibi to the day before the murder, not just the
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On top of that, I was recently sent an article from August.
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So let me let me just reemphasize what you're saying.
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So there was a teacher who says that she went to the celebration of Julius Jones's birthday
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at his house, right, who had that incredible credibility.
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And she said she remembers this because she went to Kinkos before the celebration.
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She produced a receipt from her trip to Kinkos.
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But the date of that receipt, it was before the day that Paul Howell was shot and killed,
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which means that if we're to trust her alibi, that the celebration that his family and Julius
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Jones is saying is his alibi, because that was, you know, allegedly where he was when
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That actually happened before the day before Paul Howell was shot.
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And it's even worse because I was recently sent an article from the Oklahoman from August
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1st of 1999, which is just three days after the murder.
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This is when it would be the freshest in the Jones family's minds.
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And in that version of the alibi, because there's four different versions of the alibi,
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they actually say that Christopher Jordan, the person they accuse of being the shooter
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So it was an alibi for both people at the time of the murder, which is something that
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And according to their theory of defense, is not possible because they claim that Jordan
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was the shooter and Jones had nothing to do with anything.
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So they've been lying and changing up this alibi all the way through.
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The attorneys for Jones signed sworn statements saying that they knew that this alibi was false.
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Their independent witness not only said and produced a receipt showing that it's false,
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but she also claimed that she was threatened by the Jones family for coming out against the
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But the Innocence Project would say Mr. Jones did not match the description of the person
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who committed the crime, which was provided by a sole witness.
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Howell was described as having one to two inches of hair, I think, outside of the cap that they
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So how do you how do you respond to something like that?
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So what they're talking about is Megan Tobey's description of Julius Jones.
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That's the sister of Paul Howell, who is sitting in the passenger seat.
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And you could just ask her what she said or read the court's transcripts.
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The person they're saying committed the crime is Christopher Westside Jordan.
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He had cornrows, like long hair that are that are braided.
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So they asked at trial, because this was the theory of defense at trial, if what she was
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talking about when she was describing the hair was cornrows or braids.
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She specifically said she did not see cornrows or braids at trial.
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When she talks about the hair, she's talking about a stocking cap that goes over the eyebrows
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And if you listen to her description or read it at trial, she says that the hair that she's
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talking about is the inch or half an inch in and around where the ear connects to the
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And she's talking about the space between that hair and the stocking cap.
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Megan Tobey did an interview in early October where they asked her specifically about her
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Megan Tobey also went to both the clemency and the pardon and parole board hearing for
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And even though this is like the big thing for their defense and the members of the pardon
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and the parole board are in the tank for Julius Jones and they could have asked her questions
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about her description, they didn't ask one question after she brought up this highly contested
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fact because people aren't really interested in the facts of the case.
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They're just interested in glomming on to whatever little pieces of whatever they could find
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in the transcript out of context to make the case for innocence.
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And what do you say to the contention that three people incarcerated with Mr. Jordan at
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different times have said in sworn affidavits that Mr. Jordan told each of them that he committed
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the murder and that he actually framed Mr. Jones.
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None of these three men, the Innocence Project says, have met Mr. Jones and they do not know
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None of them have been offered a shorter sentence or incentive in exchange for disclosing Mr.
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Well, jailhouse confessions often come up in high profile cases and the character and credibility
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of these witnesses are in question, to say the least.
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He murdered a child, his stepchild or his girlfriend's child, by pouring scalding hot water.
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Well, you might not want to listen to this episode with kids, but especially this description.
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He poured scalding hot water on on his girlfriend's child's genitals.
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He's also been adjudicated a sociopath, a pathological liar.
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And you'll see this pattern over and over again with the people that Jones's attorneys would
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On top of that, this is very depressing for everybody out there.
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When people come out in support of Julius Jones in prison, no matter how bad their story is,
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no matter how loose their connection with Christopher Jordan is, their prison commissary
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So there is an incentive to lie for Christopher Jordan.
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And there are confessions from Julius Jones that were never brought up against him in trial
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because they were adjudicated to be uncredible, even though they supported the prosecution's
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So the idea that there's confessions here and there, like these jailhouse confessions,
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There's one that was recent that wasn't adjudicated.
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But again, it's another situation with a pathological lie or a history of crimes of dishonesty that they
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don't add anything new that's not in the headlines to the case.
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Unlike one of the confessions that Jones gave, where he described a girl waving to him in
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the backseat of the vehicle, which was in that description from somebody who said Jones
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And it was given to the police by Rachel Howe, which is the daughter of Paul Howe at the time.
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So there's no connecting information from any of these confessions that give us anything
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So you're saying that the pathological liar was one of the three people incarcerated who
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apparently signed a sworn affidavit saying that Mr. Jordan confessed to committing the
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All three of them have been either adjudicated with some kind of mental or sociopathic disorder,
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and multiple of them have been adjudicated as like pathological liars, like they have
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One of them actually had a personal vendetta against Julius Jones's prosecuting attorney.
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But there's like different things that you can go through all of them.
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And maybe it's not a miracle because these are people coming out for attention that they've
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been adjudicated in such a way with all these different, I don't want, I don't know if
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disability is the correct word, but all these different mental issues.
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Yeah, does Mr. Jordan have mental disabilities that are, have been cited?
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You mentioned that he, you mentioned that he was an unintelligent co-defendant.
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I didn't know if you were implying that he has some kind of cognitive disability.
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No, when they claim that Christopher Jordan, who was 19 years old, uneducated, that he
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planted DNA not known to exist in 1999 with one day's notice, that's when I'm making fun
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So you're saying that we can't really rely on these sworn affidavits from the people who
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apparently said that Mr. Jordan said that he committed the murder.
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Now, they also contend that in exchange for testifying that Mr. Jones was the shooter,
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Mr. Jordan was given a plea deal for his alleged role as the getaway driver.
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He served 15 years in prison and today is free.
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So he is free and he did testify against Julius Jones and he did get a plea deal.
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He actually got 30 years with a life sentence on top of it.
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So it was a full life sentence with 30 years suspended.
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And this is because in the state of Oklahoma, like many other states, if you participate
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in the underlying felony and somebody dies, you can be charged with felony murder.
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So Christopher Jordan was facing the death penalty, which, by the way, is a key point because
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one of the jailhouse confessors has Jones as the driver, which would have made him guilty
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of felony murder, which would have made him up for the death penalty anyway, which is one
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of the reasons why they didn't present that at trial.
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So Joe Jordan did plead guilty and he did testify against Julius Jones.
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But the idea that he got 15 years, that's not really true.
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And then after the fact, the Department of Corrections in Oklahoma changed how they calculate their
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So what the Innocence Project often alleges is that there was a secret deal between the
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district attorney and the and the Jordan camp, and it was not disclosed well enough to the
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Therefore, they didn't know how to treat the testimony.
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But the thing is, is that if you read the transcripts, Jordan's testimony was not key.
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The testimony from people like Megan Tobey or Julius Jones's own girlfriend were far more
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And in the state of Oklahoma, everything the co-defendant says has to be verified by a third
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So like everything Jordan would have brought to the table had to be verified by somebody
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And what's interesting as well, and as you describe the the alleged cover up and framing
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and collusion between Mr. Jordan and the defense, I am thinking about the fact that the Innocence
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Project obviously says that the verdict was based on racial bias.
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They talk about the fact that Mr. Howell was a white man.
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This happened in a predominantly white neighborhood.
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District attorney Bob Macy, who I'm guessing is white.
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Eleven out of the 12 jurors in Mr. Jones's trial were white, which, by the way, is not
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The jury is chosen based on the population of, you know, where the crime took place and where
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But in order to claim that in order to claim that you also have to you have to claim, I
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don't know, that it would also be racist against Mr. Jordan, who was also black.
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So it confuses me that they think that the prosecution I think I said the defense earlier,
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the process of the prosecution they're saying colluded with Mr. Jordan.
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OK, so the same prosecution that they are saying racist are racist colluded with Christopher
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And I guess I'm just failing to understand how then the prosecution is racist, because
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either way they would have been trying to convict a black man.
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So can you help me unpack their argument there that this has something to do with, I guess,
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white supremacy when the person that they are saying actually committed the crime is also
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black and would have gotten the death penalty if he had been found guilty of murder?
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I mean, I call this the and I apologize for the vulgarity in this statement, but I call this
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like the farting in a room effect is if you just fart in a room and then people smell it,
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But it's not really key to what's going on everywhere else in the room.
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So the all the allegations of racism in this case are are pretty ridiculous.
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They they allege that even portraying a black man as coming into a white neighborhood like
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This is actually in the documentary for Julius Jones's defense, which is produced by the
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Innocence Project and is presented as something more neutral than it actually is as as as a
00:26:47.340
But again, the as you pointed out, the the defense's theory of the case is that it was
00:26:53.540
not Julius Jones, but the other black guy involved, Christopher Jordan, who came into the white
00:26:59.680
neighborhood and shot Paul Howell and killed him like their arguments for the death penalty
00:27:04.560
They'll claim that even pursuing the death penalty in this case, I'm sorry, their arguments
00:27:11.140
They'll claim that even pursuing the death penalty in this case is a mark of racism against the
00:27:20.380
If it was an all white jury, they'd say all white jury.
00:27:23.140
But again, Edmund was 85 percent white as they lay out in their own like little hit piece
00:27:28.740
And I find it incredibly disgusting that somebody can come into your community and murder a member
00:27:36.340
And then your community goes on trial as being evil and racist, because apparently in the
00:27:43.400
1960s, people moved there to get away from crime in the city.
00:27:47.660
And that was somehow code for for moving away from black people.
00:27:56.780
They if something that they don't like happens in the present, then they say, well, this is
00:28:02.180
connected to something that happened 50 years ago without actually logically or factually
00:28:09.220
Of course, that's the whole thing with the 1619 project, this unbroken legacy of slavery
00:28:14.320
that they say, you know, leads to every disparity between white and black Americans today.
00:28:19.560
Thomas Sowell has completely has completely busted that myth.
00:28:25.800
They're saying, well, this case obviously was tried and decided upon based on racial animus
00:28:34.540
because of this thing that happened in Oklahoma in the 1960s.
00:28:38.220
And so this is their version of justice, which is it's completely unjust because you're basically
00:28:44.320
punishing people who did nothing wrong by exoriating them, like he just said in the press
00:28:49.560
for being too white, being white supremacist and also taking justice away from Paul Howell's
00:28:59.100
And and again, like the how family, the more you learn about them, the more this story
00:29:04.780
And like, that's why I've done so many videos on it, because like they have not had this
00:29:12.760
These people advocate for them in the way that the other side has.
00:29:17.320
I always talk about how they had something like 400 followers on Facebook at the time
00:29:24.060
And Kim Kardashian is on the other side of this.
00:29:26.680
She has three thirty nine million followers on Twitter, something like that.
00:29:31.460
All these different celebrities, Baker Mayfield, like athletes are in this and they all just
00:29:36.160
paint this propaganda of Julius Jones being this great student at Oklahoma University.
00:29:44.440
He never played for any OU team and everything that apparently, according to them, ruined
00:29:53.380
When in reality, if you look at his criminal record, if you look at his pawn receipts, if
00:29:57.120
you listen to his own girlfriend who he threatened when her testimony was so damning for him at
00:30:02.860
trial, like in letters, he threatened this woman.
00:30:10.440
He destroyed Paul Howe's life and his family's lives.
00:30:12.960
This has nothing to do with white flight in 1965.
00:30:19.740
It's about a family that lost their father and had to witness that loss.
00:30:27.380
I want to get into how this starts, like how does this start to snowball with something
00:30:32.980
But I first want to ask you, you mentioned his girlfriend's testimony.
00:30:38.540
So, so Julius Jones contends consistently that he had no serious criminal record and the
00:30:44.840
Innocence Project, you'll, you might see that he was never convicted of anything violent
00:30:50.140
It's because they convicted at the time of his arrest.
00:30:52.380
It's because they convicted him after the fact.
00:30:54.480
So what his girlfriend does is essentially tie him to a bunch of jewelry store robberies where
00:31:00.700
Jones wore the suspect in that case, which was Jones, wore bandanas, stocking caps, et
00:31:06.040
cetera, by pointing out to the court that she discovered the gun that Julius Jones used in
00:31:16.280
And Jones claimed that he did in fact have the, that that gun was him, that gun belonged
00:31:23.360
So she also, she also ties them to the jewelry store robberies because Jones gave her four
00:31:29.140
chains from one of the robberies and he took back three immediately.
00:31:32.860
And there's three specific pawn receipts that coincide with that date.
00:31:37.720
And he left her with one and then he took back the one on a later date.
00:31:41.260
And there's a pawn receipt that coincides with that in Julius Jones's name.
00:31:45.560
So her testimony out of all the different testimonies that were put forward is one of
00:31:49.920
the most devastating, which is one of the reasons why Julius Jones actually sent her
00:31:53.440
threatening letters throughout the course of the trial.
00:31:56.140
And the innocence project was making the case that these letters didn't exist, that the
00:32:00.420
prosecution just made them up, which is ridiculous.
00:32:03.360
And in Jones's clemency hearing, Jones admitted to sending these letters because Jones never
00:32:08.980
testified up until this very like recent hearing.
00:32:12.880
So they just lie consistently, but they can't really get around the fact that Julius Jones's
00:32:19.040
girlfriend who had every reason to lie for him produced probably absent Megan Tobey, the
00:32:29.040
And remind everyone where you get this information.
00:32:32.980
Like, how do you read in and garner all of these facts that seem to be lost on those people
00:32:39.080
Well, I've actually had the entire trial transcripts sent to me.
00:32:42.160
They are available, but Oklahoma has like an older system.
00:32:45.660
So you have to request them in person or have somebody request them in person for you.
00:32:51.860
So all I need is somebody to go to Oklahoma on my behalf and send me the whole transcript
00:32:59.040
But also the prosecution puts out like bullet points for this, like Prater, he'll put out
00:33:05.080
his whole theory of the case and they'll go in and dispute every single aspect of Julius
00:33:13.760
I link to it under every single one of my videos on the case because it's about 12 pages.
00:33:19.000
And all you would have to do is be willing and interested and knowledgeable that there is
00:33:24.180
another side to a case like the Julius Jones case.
00:33:29.980
One of the things that we I've discovered is that people and not just far leftists,
00:33:35.500
unfortunately, don't even consider that another side of this case exists, which is ridiculous.
00:33:42.160
Well, people don't want to consider that because the last thing, of course, that you want to
00:33:48.320
But the last thing that people want to be called is some kind of racist spigot that is just,
00:33:52.740
you know, bloodthirsty and wanting an innocent man to walk to his death.
00:33:56.160
And plus, I think a lot of people think, well, this doesn't really affect me.
00:33:59.280
It doesn't affect me that this person isn't getting the death penalty or maybe they're
00:34:04.420
So they don't really care about the facts of the case.
00:34:06.320
So they're like, well, he's not getting the death penalty.
00:34:09.180
And they don't really care about the truth because it puts them in this uncomfortable
00:34:12.440
position of being against the Kim Kardashians, even being against a lot of people.
00:34:18.300
A lot of people in the church who are saying, yes, this is justice.
00:34:23.380
You don't want to be the lone voice to raise your hand and say, well, actually, the facts
00:34:27.440
don't point to the conclusion that people like the Innocence Project are asserting.
00:34:43.760
And like, who scouts them out and says, you know what?
00:34:49.920
I'm going to, you know, make a documentary about this person and get Kim Kardashian and
00:34:55.800
So this becomes this big PR effort towards this person so that there seems like there
00:35:03.960
Tell us a little bit if you know about the Innocence Project and what their process is.
00:35:09.280
Well, the Innocence Project, I can't tell you about the inner workings of of their organization.
00:35:15.880
But what I can tell you is that one of the founders of the Innocence Project, and I forget
00:35:20.600
which attorney it was, and I apologize for not knowing the name offhand, was one of OJ
00:35:27.280
So like that's that was the impetus for this person starting the Innocence Project.
00:35:31.880
Now, if you know anything about the OJ Simpson case, he's 100 percent guilty.
00:35:36.800
So from its inception, the Innocence Project is all about getting guilty people off for
00:35:42.600
But what they really are as an organization fundamentally is an anti-death penalty organization.
00:35:48.320
But what one of the things that they found out through their time working these cases is
00:35:53.520
that arguing against the morality of the death penalty isn't as effective as making the
00:35:58.640
case that there's all these innocent people that are on death row that shouldn't be executed.
00:36:03.820
So they've kind of shifted focus in their advocacy.
00:36:10.560
So these cases a lot ideologically are about opposition to the death penalty.
00:36:14.460
And that's one of the reasons why you can watch attorneys and these documentary films just
00:36:20.020
skew so much information and leave so much out that you could never get away within a court
00:36:26.820
It's not about actually proving somebody innocent like the Jones clemency push was never about
00:36:34.280
It was about just getting enough signatures, getting enough people hyped on that side in
00:36:43.840
And so they just get people like Viola Davis and Kim Kardashian on board by saying, look at
00:36:48.820
this innocent black man who is a victim of our white supremacist system.
00:36:52.680
And we need your voice to basically amplify his innocence.
00:36:56.940
And for most people who don't spend a lot of time reading the transcripts like you do,
00:37:01.200
I mean, you know, like I said, they're not going to go up against those kinds of voices.
00:37:08.040
And I mean, I am for obviously the exoneration of people who are innocent or who are not guilty
00:37:18.040
I don't want someone, gosh, to be executed or spend the rest of his or her life in prison
00:37:23.180
who didn't commit a crime that they were put in jail for.
00:37:27.920
What I am not for is the propaganda effort that purposely leaves out facts in order to
00:37:33.220
stir people's emotion and removes from people seemingly their mental faculties, their ability
00:37:40.580
to think logically and use reasoning and actually sift through real facts.
00:37:47.120
I'm not for the propaganda effort that seems to be behind this because justice is not going
00:38:00.940
And I do want to make the point that that's the Innocence Project is overall like an anti-death
00:38:07.580
But the Kim Kardashian and these other celebrities, part of the reason and by the way, Kim Kardashian
00:38:12.120
is connected to the Innocence Project because her father's Robert Kardashian.
00:38:15.660
And he was a great friend of OJ and he actually helped recommend and assemble the Dream Team
00:38:25.120
But the celebrity push is a lot about like they've taken it a step further because not
00:38:30.680
only the anti-death penalty, but they're specifically anti and this looks like it's one of the parameters
00:38:36.160
that they pick for these cases is anti-black people getting convicted or the death penalty
00:38:43.800
Like if you look at the cases that Kim Kardashian has highlighted specifically, like this appears
00:38:50.480
So whether they whether they frame somebody or try to paint it as as they're innocent in
00:38:55.480
the way that the Jones team did, where they point to somebody who's already been tried
00:39:00.180
and convicted in relation to the crime, therefore they can't be tried again.
00:39:03.740
Or they're trying to frame other people that have nothing to do with this.
00:39:08.800
And there's other cases out there and I would be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that
00:39:13.960
Kim Kardashian also appears to be hiring, not highlighting not only cases where black
00:39:19.760
people kill white people, but cases where the black person has an alliterated name.
00:39:26.440
Julius Jones, Rodney Reed, Crystal Kaiser, Brendan Bernard.
00:39:45.540
It's because you think it's easier for the public to it rolls off your tongue better.
00:39:51.120
I mean, I hate that sounds so cynical and evil, but I mean, we're talking about a propaganda
00:39:57.620
I'm not saying all just because I don't know the details of all of the cases of the people
00:40:02.560
But I mean, there are a lot of people on death row.
00:40:05.960
And so the fact that a lot of a lot of the people that she is choosing apparently have these
00:40:12.400
alliterations in their names, it seems like that could be because it rolls off the tongue
00:40:18.880
better, it's easier to remember, and that would be a public relations win, right?
00:40:25.500
But I also think that Kim Kardashian, obviously, the Kardashian family is kind of obsessed with
00:40:31.380
Like, that's why they're all named KK and all that.
00:40:34.320
So I do think there's like just a dumb, childish element to it.
00:40:38.580
And like, I don't want to get too conspiratorial or anything with the reason behind it.
00:40:42.260
But so I'm just going to say it's a dumb, childish element to it.
00:40:45.140
Because it's really weird that you found 10 or so people that are all black people that
00:40:51.420
killed white people all have rock solid cases, by the way, like a lot of them, like the DNA
00:40:56.180
tested in Julius Jones, they have requested DNA testing, which, by the way, I 100% agree
00:41:01.740
If we didn't have the science to determine whether or not your DNA was on something back
00:41:06.520
in the day and you on appeal want that tested, I'm in support of that for sure.
00:41:12.060
But when the DNA matches the person that was convicted, like you should drop the case.
00:41:17.380
So a lot of them have that pattern along with it.
00:41:19.580
But yeah, the alliteration, maybe it's a marketing thing.
00:41:23.460
Maybe it's just something that makes Kim Kardashian feel connected to it.
00:41:27.380
But it is noticeable, especially when you get to this many cases that this is a pattern
00:41:32.260
for her specifically and her involvement in this.
00:41:35.460
The Innocence Project should just be honest that they're anti-death penalty.
00:41:38.980
But I understand why they're not, because like you said, if you say, hey, we know that
00:41:44.680
this person, I'm not even talking about Julius Jones, Brandon Bernard, whoever, we know that
00:41:52.560
I think that there was someone who was executed last year, federally executed for a brutal
00:41:59.060
He brutally murdered his like two-year-old daughter in the front seat of his truck.
00:42:04.560
If you say that, like if you describe to people what these people actually did or what was
00:42:11.180
proven against them beyond a reasonable doubt, people are less likely to say that they shouldn't
00:42:17.020
I mean, in theory, people are against the death penalty.
00:42:19.740
But when you read people, the terrible crimes that were allegedly committed by a lot of these
00:42:25.320
people, they say, OK, I might be against the death penalty, but I don't really care if
00:42:30.820
And so it's a lot more persuasive for the Innocence Project to say, not only are we against
00:42:37.500
the death penalty, but this person didn't even commit the crime.
00:42:40.140
That is not palatable, understandably, for most people to have a possibly innocent man
00:42:52.240
If you're just against the death penalty, just be against the death penalty.
00:42:55.200
Like Julius Jones is going to still spend the rest of his life in prison, right?
00:42:58.100
Yeah, I mean, hopefully there's always a chance that you can get out of prison, even though
00:43:05.240
Oklahoma has a weird quirk in their constitution that once the governor gets clemency once,
00:43:10.940
it's basically impossible, according to their current constitution, for you to get out in
00:43:16.140
But I'm of the belief that there's no such thing as life without parole.
00:43:19.780
Eventually, a lot of these people will get out, whether they become elderly and they can't
00:43:29.480
The the push for claiming that these people are innocent is all about practicality and
00:43:35.060
undermining the institution that is the death penalty, because most Americans are still in
00:43:39.620
favor of the death penalty, especially when you give them specific cases and details related
00:43:44.820
So but Americans have pause and they should have pause when we're discussing somebody potentially
00:43:53.120
So that's why they frame all these stories as like, oh, racial bias led to this innocent
00:44:00.900
And there's a feeling that if they can get enough people on death row, reduce sentence, which
00:44:05.900
they always call exonerations, which we could talk about their how they pad the numbers of
00:44:12.060
But they they they get all these people reduced.
00:44:15.680
And the idea is to create enough doubt in the American population's mind with how our
00:44:20.460
justice system works so that they can undermine the death penalty, because most people, if
00:44:25.060
you ask them, is the death penalty worth it if you execute innocent, people will say no.
00:44:30.060
So that's why they're trying to artificially boost the number of innocent people on death
00:44:34.560
So, yeah, which, you know, I think that there are there's a political there, practical cases
00:44:43.240
I don't I don't hear that's not necessarily your contention with this whole thing.
00:44:47.260
It's the propaganda behind whether or not he is innocent.
00:44:50.820
And I do think that the governor of Oklahoma, his his choice to say, OK, he's not going to
00:44:56.780
get the death penalty does seem to add fuel to their to their fire, because he's not just
00:45:02.220
saying, OK, we're against the death penalty in Oklahoma.
00:45:04.160
He's saying that this guy is probably innocent.
00:45:08.160
And it's just interesting how I mean, propaganda really can change policy.
00:45:13.940
It can change the course of someone's life because people, like I said, they just don't
00:45:19.840
have the effort or the energy rather to push back against it, because who wants to be against
00:45:25.560
this mammoth movement of exonerating people who are on death row?
00:45:35.340
I will say just really quickly, and I'm sorry for for interrupting, but that's fine.
00:45:40.100
Governor Kevin Stitt did affirm Julius Jones's guilt in his commutation of Julius Jones.
00:45:45.960
And that's why he put in his parameters that Jones can never seek any more of these hearings
00:45:53.100
He has to be removed, removed from death row and put in general population like a normal
00:45:57.600
What was his reasoning for what was his reasoning for taking the death penalty off the table
00:46:03.200
I mean, he was lobbied heavily, not just by lefties and but by some conservatives.
00:46:08.560
There's rumors from according to Julius Jones's original lawyer at trial, who I spoke to the
00:46:15.040
day that they got clemency, David McKenzie, that the that Kim Kardashian contacted former
00:46:20.980
President Trump and former President Trump or one of his advisors asked for the commutation
00:46:26.900
So there's people who are generally right about this.
00:46:30.140
Trump resumed federal executions that can be swept up in these propaganda campaigns.
00:46:35.120
I just think they put so much pressure that Kevin Stitt went for a compromise.
00:46:39.000
But the compromise, because of the way Oklahoma's constitution works, is a compromise that's 90 percent
00:46:45.020
in favor of the Jones is guilty side and 10 percent in favor of the Innocence Project side, because
00:46:50.820
the way Oklahoma has laid it out, he's basically going to be more disadvantaged now than he was
00:46:59.100
And, you know, that sucks for people who are on death row and they don't have an alliteration
00:47:05.760
for their name and they don't get the attention of Kim Kardashian, who may be the same case could
00:47:11.140
be made for them, that they don't deserve to die, but they're not going to get the favor
00:47:16.580
of the Oklahoma governor, who says that he did this by prayer, by the way, not because
00:47:22.420
I guess in his prayer, he didn't he didn't feel led by the spirit to commute the sentences
00:47:31.840
And so was it Kim Kardashian and Trump or was it God?
00:47:36.940
But that seems a little bit that doesn't seem like justice because it seems unfair.
00:47:41.620
It seems like he is getting favorable treatment simply because he had Viola Davis and a, you
00:47:51.960
OK, I want to talk about just we don't have very much time, but I haven't talked about yet
00:47:57.420
because I took a couple of weeks off for Thanksgiving.
00:48:02.940
You already know this, but for people who didn't know, who don't know, he's 39 years
00:48:07.740
He drove a red SUV through a Christmas parade and he killed six people, including eight
00:48:15.040
He also seriously injured his 12 year old brother.
00:48:22.800
He actually recently tried to he's charged with running over his girlfriend with the same
00:48:28.200
red SUV that he used to plow through this Christmas parade.
00:48:32.360
He was let out on a thousand dollar bail after he was charged with that crime.
00:48:37.940
They're now, of course, saying that that was inappropriately low.
00:48:41.260
But that's a pattern throughout the country of criminals being released on low bail and
00:48:47.940
then going out and murdering or committing some kind of act of violence.
00:48:53.220
And really, the thing that I think is stunning about this is not just that that piece is stunning
00:48:58.840
that he was released on a thousand dollar bail.
00:49:00.780
But how the media is describing this, CNN said that they tweeted on November 28th that
00:49:08.580
it has been one week since a car drove through a city Christmas parade.
00:49:12.660
The Washington Post tweeted on November 24th that there was a Waukesha tragedy caused by an
00:49:21.080
And then there was it's not on my sheet, but there was another CNN tweet that also said
00:49:28.900
So you've even got celebrities like Deborah Messing saying this wasn't this was not an
00:49:34.660
It was a domestic terror attack, which I happen to agree for the first time, perhaps with
00:49:42.380
Why is the media covering this the way that it is?
00:49:48.020
I mean, I think the guy's going to be convicted.
00:49:51.300
So in that sense, the victims will receive justice.
00:49:54.260
I don't want to, you know, the guy the guy's basically on video driving his SUV that appears
00:49:59.940
in his music videos through through this crowd committing this crime.
00:50:04.200
So like whatever amount of justice our system can deliver in the state of Wisconsin, he should
00:50:09.020
But I just want to point out that there is no known motive at all.
00:50:12.760
And you shouldn't look at any of his social media posts.
00:50:15.960
And we should talk about these these fully automatic assault SUVs, right?
00:50:23.740
And they just take off and on their own, they just attack crowds.
00:50:29.160
But yeah, the while we don't actually know the motive and we can speculate on the motive,
00:50:35.660
Hopefully he doesn't plea out and we actually can see what he has to say at trial, because
00:50:41.060
I do want to know what the motive is behind this.
00:50:42.940
What we do know for sure is that this soft bail kind of criminal justice reform where you just let
00:50:53.560
This guy attempted a serious aggravated assault against his girlfriend like a week and a half
00:51:03.220
And the district attorney for this area is one of these George Soros backed, Sean King
00:51:10.160
And I hate to I mean, I hate to invoke his name, but always when you see these kinds of
00:51:15.380
cases and you see this kind of history with the district attorney, like they're always
00:51:20.540
someone who was funded by George Soros every single time.
00:51:23.840
The same thing happens in Texas and Houston, in Austin and San Francisco, in L.A.
00:51:29.320
You look at all of these major cities where they're, you know, pretty new DAs, Chesa Boudin
00:51:39.320
And this this is part of the the social justice, criminal justice movements.
00:51:46.120
And it is fueled by their newfangled version of equity that they can't have too many people
00:51:56.380
There needs to be ways for them to be let out of prison.
00:52:01.380
They want to get rid of the bail system altogether.
00:52:03.920
We've seen the detrimental effects of that in places like New York City, obviously now in
00:52:12.180
And so, yeah, we're seeing this is just another effect of that.
00:52:17.260
And to your point about about the bail reform, it's actually New York State.
00:52:20.680
So the whole state, everybody gets out on everything, basically.
00:52:23.980
And a lot of people who backed New York State's bail reform law, they considered it a model
00:52:29.060
are now talking about how they wouldn't have that Daryl Brooks.
00:52:37.100
He committed a serious crime, assault, aggravated assault with the motor vehicle and all that.
00:52:41.600
The thing is, is that all these activists are full of you know what, because every crime
00:52:47.860
that Daryl Brooks committed in the state, if he would have committed them in the state
00:52:51.520
of New York under the new bail reform law that they champion that they say is a model would
00:52:56.940
have released him and he wouldn't have even had to pay the thousand dollars bail.
00:53:00.560
So aggravated assault with a vehicle in the state of New York, there's no bail for that
00:53:05.720
In fact, aggravated of aggravated manslaughter with the motor vehicle is something that you
00:53:13.360
You can't get bail for your past history of jumping bail, which is something that Daryl Brooks
00:53:17.840
had a history of doing not showing up for court and all that.
00:53:20.740
All the normal rational reasons why you would put a high bail on somebody are all banned
00:53:27.180
And this is the same like the D.A. in in in in Wisconsin.
00:53:36.580
The same people who supported him in in his pursuit of office supported the law in my state.
00:53:44.760
There's no way that any of these people are legitimate and serious.
00:53:48.820
They just see the consequences of the policies that they're advocating for, which, by the
00:53:53.900
way, when they were implemented by the district attorney in this area, he literally said, well,
00:53:58.600
we know for a fact that this is going to cause more people to die, but it's about like some
00:54:09.520
That seems like it's so much of Democratic policy that, you know, once we achieve this
00:54:15.600
grand vision of cosmic justice, it's, you know, it's the same thing with a lot of the
00:54:19.720
economic issues that we're seeing today that is going to accomplish in the end the kind
00:54:25.100
of society that progressives want or they think so anyway.
00:54:28.500
And so the lives that are lost or the livelihoods that are lost in the process, well, that's
00:54:32.840
just collateral damage and it's still going towards the greater good.
00:54:36.340
And so I'm afraid that a lot of so-called criminal justice advocates, which is or it's an Orwellian
00:54:42.120
name the same way that Ministry of Peace or Ministry of Truth is in 1984, they are OK with
00:54:50.260
the loss of life, with danger, with violence, with chaos in the meantime, because I guess
00:54:54.840
they think that having fewer people in jail will somehow lead to some form of utopia, which
00:55:05.660
I don't know how, though, they think that these means will lead to that end.
00:55:12.320
How will more violence like what we saw in Waukesha, how will more death and more robbery,
00:55:17.100
more looting and more murder lead to a more peaceful society that criminal justice advocates
00:55:22.480
say is worth the cost that we're seeing right now?
00:55:26.520
Well, when they're when they're not connect, when you're not connected to reality and you
00:55:30.500
don't have any idea how our institutions in our criminal justice system are built up, you
00:55:36.880
make absurd claims like the reason there's so much violent crime is because we give violent
00:55:46.760
So they actually legitimately believed that if you let these people on out on bail or you
00:55:53.420
don't let give them bail at all, you just release them on their own recognizance, even when they're
00:55:58.280
not they've shown repeatedly that they're not the kind of people who will even show up to
00:56:02.840
court, which is the whole point of having a cash incentive like bail, that they'll actually
00:56:07.640
behave better because what our criminal justice system does is harden all these criminals.
00:56:13.100
So they have when you when you have something so basic as cause and effect backwards, this
00:56:19.000
is the kind of policy that you end up advocating for.
00:56:21.660
And these are the kind of results that you would expect.
00:56:24.260
Like everybody, you I like the analogy of you see a fence in the middle of the woods and
00:56:35.580
You could tear down the fence and just wonder what happens.
00:56:38.660
Or you could try to discern its purpose before you act.
00:56:41.980
A lot of people on the far left tear it down immediately and then they find out that that's
00:56:46.780
the fence that cages in all the tigers and then they get tackled by tigers.
00:56:51.960
And yeah, people on both sides of the aisle, they're not going to tolerate this kind of
00:56:57.240
thing for long because human beings, it's just human nature.
00:57:03.780
We like to be able to leave our home and be able to rely on the fact that we'll be pretty
00:57:11.720
And so the progressive ideologues who think that most of the country is going to tolerate
00:57:18.260
this kind of violence and injustice, it just doesn't like we've already the history tells
00:57:24.220
If you look at the history of New York City, for example, how it was riddled with crime
00:57:27.520
in the 1970s, people didn't want to tolerate that.
00:57:30.440
And then you can see the reforms that were made because Rudy Giuliani was so tough on crime.
00:57:35.560
It became a place where people actually wanted to go.
00:57:40.500
Unfortunately, we don't know how many lives are going to be lost in the meantime because
00:57:44.340
of these DAs and other local officials that have been put in place.
00:57:47.940
There's so much there's so much more that I want to ask you.
00:57:50.300
We'll have to have you back on to talk about the criminal justice system or criminal justice
00:57:54.860
movement in general and our justice system, since you have such an extensive background
00:58:00.420
Can you tell everyone where they can find you, how they can follow you?
00:58:04.320
You can find me on YouTube dot com slash actual justice warrior.
00:58:08.340
That's where I primarily post all of my content.
00:58:10.760
I'm also on Twitter at I am Sean 90 spelled the traditional Irish way S E A N.
00:58:17.320
And I can be found on Instagram, new Instagram at actual justice.
00:58:21.560
I know that's not the best brand integration, but I actually have the same thing.
00:58:29.100
People can duck, duck, go you and they'll figure it out.
00:58:31.820
Thank you so much, Sean, for taking the time to come on.
00:58:36.520
And we'll provide the links to all that stuff in your previous videos on Julius Jones in the