Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 532 ｜ The Case Against Julius Jones ｜ Guest： Sean Fitzgerald

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Thursday. As promised, today we are talking about Julius

00:00:15.200 Jones. He was the Oklahoma man who was on death row and his death sentence was commuted by the

00:00:23.320 governor after there was a loud protest from the criminal justice crowd and specifically the

00:00:32.240 Innocence Project. Also Kim Kardashian, NBA stars, Viola Davis, who all advocated on behalf of

00:00:39.400 Julius Jones's innocence, claiming that he was framed. Today we are talking to Sean Fitzgerald.

00:00:46.040 He, or Fitzgerald, maybe that's how he pronounces it. He has a YouTube channel,

00:00:50.620 actual justice warrior where he breaks down these cases and he has combed through all of the

00:00:56.380 facts of this case and he contends that Julius Jones, way beyond a reasonable doubt, is actually

00:01:02.100 guilty. The conversation that we're having is not about the death penalty per se. I have done

00:01:09.800 a theological episode on the death penalty and we will link that episode in the description to this

00:01:16.520 episode so you can go listen to it. We are primarily talking about whether or not Julius Jones is

00:01:21.940 innocent and the machine behind trying to contend for someone's innocence that is driven primarily

00:01:30.160 by people like the Innocence Project. The reason why this case came to prominence and why you know

00:01:39.080 Julius Jones's name is because there was a three-episode documentary that was produced by Viola Davis that

00:01:45.320 aired on ABC in 2018 called The Last Defense and it was put together and that's mostly what people who

00:01:53.620 say that that Julius Jones was innocent, that's mostly what people are referring to. They're referring to

00:02:00.300 not the court transcripts, not the actual evidence that's presented or not presented. They are looking at

00:02:07.820 this particular documentary. A documentary can be very informative, but it tells a story that is put

00:02:14.840 together by a person who may have a particular narrative. So it's not actual documentation or a primary

00:02:23.260 source if you're trying to understand a particular case or any particular event. It might be informative in some

00:02:29.420 ways, but it's not enough to tell us what the truth of a case is. And so that's why we are doing, why we are

00:02:36.220 having this conversation today, doing this episode today. And we are also going to talk about what

00:02:43.040 happened in Waukesha with Daryl Brooks, who has been charged with murder of six people. And we're

00:02:50.800 going to talk about the media coverage of that, why they're not calling it terrorism, why they aren't

00:02:56.140 talking about the motives at all. It's very strange. Probably it seems like race and social justice and

00:03:02.700 so-called equity are all factors in that. So we're going to get into all of this today. Might be a

00:03:08.700 contentious, controversial episode, but that's what we do. It's a particular perspective, and I hope that

00:03:14.480 you learned something from it and can appreciate it. And without further ado, here is our new friend,

00:03:20.520 Sean. Sean, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do?

00:03:26.800 I'm Sean Fitzgerald. I run a channel called The Actual Justice Warrior on YouTube,

00:03:33.160 where I cover criminal justice related topics and political topics. That's about it. It's not a big

00:03:41.800 thing. No. Well, actually, it is a big thing because there has been such a fierce debate for a long time,

00:03:48.600 but especially over the past year, I would say after the George Floyd incident, people debating what

00:03:53.780 justice looks like. And we've heard this term as J.W. Social Justice Warrior for a while,

00:03:58.600 and there seems to be such a stark disagreement on what justice actually is. So why did you start

00:04:04.700 your channel and why did you name it Actual Justice Warrior? Well, I started my channel because my

00:04:10.660 background in terms of my education is in criminal justice. Like I hold two degrees in the subject. So

00:04:16.800 it was something that I was always interested in. And as far back as I can remember, the media was

00:04:21.760 really bad at reporting criminal justice related stories. So essentially, a lot of what I do is

00:04:28.620 I'll just read the actual case documents of a case that's in the media and try to correct terrible

00:04:35.040 reporting. Yeah. So let's talk about some of that terrible reporting, or at least in your estimation.

00:04:41.580 Let's talk about Julius Jones, because that's how I found you. I think that maybe I had followed you

00:04:48.460 already, and I had seen some of your tweets, but I watched your videos on Julius Jones, and you were

00:04:54.920 one of the only people I saw that was actually covering this thoroughly. So let's start from

00:05:00.620 the very beginning. Feel free to talk as long as you want to include as many details as you want to

00:05:05.480 a lot of people just don't know what this case is, who Julius Jones is, why he didn't get the death

00:05:13.300 penalty when he was supposed to. So let's start from the beginning. Who is Julius Jones? Why are you

00:05:17.900 interested in this case? So from way back in the beginning, Julius Jones is a serial carjacker

00:05:25.820 who attempted to carjack one Paul Howe on July 28th, 1999. And when Paul Howe opened his door in

00:05:34.360 his parents' driveway, Julius Jones shot him in the head one time, killing him in front of his children.

00:05:40.600 And that is what is being, let me just say, that's what's being contended. That's,

00:05:44.140 you believe that the evidence points to that. But of course, the Innocence Project, Kim Kardashian,

00:05:48.880 a lot of people on the other side, they would say, they say that it's not Julius Jones. But this is

00:05:53.000 your assertion based on what you've looked at, correct? Right, based on the evidence. This is

00:05:58.340 what was laid out by the prosecution way back when, when they tried Julius Jones and convicted him for

00:06:04.060 the murder. So after Paul Howe was shot and killed, the Howe family, which is Megan, Toby, Paul Howe's

00:06:10.720 sister, and the two daughters fled into the home, Julius Jones fired upon them as they were fleeing

00:06:16.920 into the home. Then he got into the suburban, backed out, crushed Paul Howe's legs and drove away.

00:06:22.920 Now, the Jones defense team contends that it was not Julius Jones, that it was actually

00:06:28.200 who was ended up being his co-defendant, Christopher Jordan, who shot Paul Howe and stole the car.

00:06:35.340 But the evidence against Julius Jones is overwhelming. And the evidence is actually

00:06:40.200 greater today when he got the the commutation than it was back in the day. So there was there

00:06:46.960 was a red bandana that was worn by the shooter that was described by Paul Howe's sister. And the

00:06:51.820 Jones defense team contended the whole time that Jones wasn't the shooter. There's even a clip of

00:06:57.100 his daughter. His sister saw the bandana. OK, got it. She was in the passenger seat because Megan

00:07:03.140 Toby's the only adult eyewitness to the case. Like the two daughters did unfortunately see what

00:07:09.740 happened to Paul Howe, but they weren't testifying in court or anything like that. So the sister

00:07:15.380 identifies this bandana. They find the bandana inside Julius Jones's bedroom. The murder weapon

00:07:21.700 is wrapped in it. They also find a white shirt with black trim on it, which was like black trim around

00:07:27.420 the neck, which is very underreported. It's a very distinct shirt that was described by Toby.

00:07:33.020 And it was also found in Julius Jones's bedroom. And the defense, like one of their big proponents,

00:07:39.500 one of the things that they argue in their documentary, which is called The Last Defense,

00:07:43.360 is that the banana should have been tested for DNA back in 1999. It was tested for DNA in around 2017,

00:07:50.980 2018. And despite what the defense claimed about Jones never wearing bandanas and having nothing to do

00:07:56.200 with this crime, the DNA actually did match Julius Jones, which should have confirmed the verdict

00:08:01.200 and ended all this. But it didn't. And they continue. They just don't even talk about the

00:08:07.040 bandana anymore. It's one of the most amazing things. That's what I was going to say. What do

00:08:10.260 they say when DNA evidence proved that it was his bandana or that he had been wearing the bandana,

00:08:16.240 at least at some point? What did the defense argue? So they have two strategies or they had two 0.80

00:08:23.400 strategies. The first was to ignore the existence of the bandana. So if you look at any of the

00:08:28.760 Innocence Project propaganda, it always starts with Julius Jones maintains his innocence, which is

00:08:33.820 like, OK, the guy says he didn't do it. The DNA says he did. But Julius says he didn't.

00:08:39.780 And they don't bring it up. And then when you push them on the bandana, they start playing games

00:08:45.600 with their like, oh, well, that was the major profile. There's these minor profiles that are

00:08:49.920 DNA science. Could not like it could only detect was human. Like it couldn't detect who it was.

00:08:55.900 And they'll make the case that that could have been the actual real killer on some of the minor

00:09:00.940 profiles there. But it's like it's it's nonsensical because Jones claimed. And as recently as in his

00:09:07.940 pardon and parole hearing that he didn't even wear any bandanas at the time of the shooting.

00:09:13.320 So the fact that he's the major contributor is like to me, that locks it up for him.

00:09:18.360 Also, is the type of DNA that you couldn't test for back in 1999, which means that Chris

00:09:23.560 Jordan, his his very his lacking in intelligence co-defendant could not have planted this type

00:09:30.300 of DNA. It's like contact DNA, like touch DNA, let alone removed it because DNA scientists

00:09:36.180 didn't know this existed in 99. But it's not just that there's like eyewitnesses that saw

00:09:41.300 Jordan and Jones 15 minutes before the murder. And these are like independent eyewitnesses.

00:09:46.220 There are witnesses that saw him like 30 minutes after the murder. He's seen on surveillance

00:09:51.200 dumping the car. Like there's a bunch of different things that would lead us to believe that Jones

00:09:56.140 is guilty. And yet the campaign just progresses.

00:09:59.720 Now, does the Innocence Project maintain that it was actually Jordan who committed this crime?

00:10:05.360 It was not Julius Jones. Yes, they do.

00:10:08.960 OK. And is that how they say, well, that's you know, do they say that Jordan somehow framed

00:10:16.000 Julius Jones? Is that the is that the argument?

00:10:19.220 Yeah. So in in the documentary, they make the case that Christopher Jordan planted the bandana

00:10:24.880 and the firearm in Julius Jones's bedroom because they spent the night together.

00:10:29.200 But the thing is, is, again, he would not have been able to plant and remove his own DNA from

00:10:34.760 the bandana. So that's ridiculous. 0.97

00:10:36.620 So Jordan's DNA was not found at all on the bandana.

00:10:39.320 No, he was he was excluded as a contributor. And the match for Julius Jones, the other trick

00:10:44.660 that they'll use is to say that Jones didn't his DNA wasn't technically a match because,

00:10:52.280 you know, DNA nerds like the scientists don't actually say match.

00:10:55.800 They give you odds of whether or not it could be somebody else. Right.

00:10:59.300 And they'll say the odds of another African-American contributing to the sample besides Julius Jones

00:11:05.120 are one in one hundred and ten million in the African-American population.

00:11:09.640 In 1999, the the African-American population was thirty five million people.

00:11:14.100 So you would need something like four times the African-American population and for the real 0.82

00:11:19.060 killer, quote unquote, to have access to Julius Jones's bedroom to plant it. 0.99

00:11:23.080 So it's statistically ridiculous. But they'll harp on like little things like that. 0.93

00:11:27.420 And they'll say, oh, the DNA wasn't technically a match because the lab doesn't use the term

00:11:31.760 match. But for all intents and purposes, it's a match.

00:11:38.500 I want to go through some of what the Innocence Project is positing, because if you just listen

00:11:45.540 to what you say, it seems really clear.

00:11:47.440 And then I think the natural question is, well, then why?

00:11:51.040 Why push back on on this verdict at all?

00:11:53.480 If it is so clear, if there seems to be some video evidence, at least of what happened after,

00:11:58.440 if there is DNA evidence, why even try to raise any contention about this verdict?

00:12:04.320 So here's what the Innocence Project says on their Web site.

00:12:08.240 And I'll just I'll let you respond.

00:12:10.100 Maybe not to all of them, because there's a lot of contingents.

00:12:12.380 But they say that Julius Jones was at home having dinner with his parents and sister at

00:12:16.160 the time of the murder and that his legal team failed to present his alibi at his original

00:12:21.780 trial. His trial attorneys did not call Mr. Jones or his family to the stand.

00:12:27.700 So what do you have to say about his alibi and perhaps why his defense attorneys didn't

00:12:33.100 even try to bring this alibi to light?

00:12:35.700 So so so the this alibi is the alibi that I call the big cookie alibi, because it basically

00:12:41.540 makes Julius Jones to be a child.

00:12:44.460 They say that he was at home eating spaghetti at nine o'clock playing Monopoly and they were

00:12:49.100 having a birthday cookie.

00:12:50.860 So his attorneys, one of which I've spoken to, David McKenzie, actually signed a sworn statement

00:12:56.340 and his other attorney did as well, that Jones told them independently that he was not home

00:13:01.560 that evening.

00:13:02.280 On top of that, they tried to produce an independent witness, a woman called Brenda Cujo, to back

00:13:08.340 up this alibi because they were like, she's you know, they're not going to believe just

00:13:12.500 the family, especially against all the other evidence.

00:13:15.200 And this woman was like a teacher of the year. 0.76

00:13:17.280 She had like impeccable credibility in terms of the court of law.

00:13:20.340 So she told the investigators for the Jones defense team that she went to Kinkos before

00:13:26.080 going to this party.

00:13:27.280 So they asked her if she had anything to verify that she produced a receipt dating

00:13:31.860 her trip to Kinkos, thus dating the alibi to the day before the murder, not just the

00:13:37.280 murder.

00:13:37.780 On top of that, I was recently sent an article from August.

00:13:41.620 So let me let me just reemphasize what you're saying.

00:13:44.240 So there was a teacher who says that she went to the celebration of Julius Jones's birthday

00:13:49.620 at his house, right, who had that incredible credibility.

00:13:54.160 And she said she remembers this because she went to Kinkos before the celebration.

00:13:58.120 She produced a receipt from her trip to Kinkos.

00:14:01.460 But the date of that receipt, it was before the day that Paul Howell was shot and killed,

00:14:07.180 which means that if we're to trust her alibi, that the celebration that his family and Julius

00:14:14.400 Jones is saying is his alibi, because that was, you know, allegedly where he was when

00:14:20.460 Paul Howell was shot.

00:14:21.280 That actually happened before the day before Paul Howell was shot.

00:14:24.820 So the timing doesn't work for the alibi.

00:14:26.620 That's what you're asserting.

00:14:28.040 Yes.

00:14:28.740 And it's even worse because I was recently sent an article from the Oklahoman from August

00:14:34.420 1st of 1999, which is just three days after the murder.

00:14:38.360 This is when it would be the freshest in the Jones family's minds.

00:14:42.140 And in that version of the alibi, because there's four different versions of the alibi,

00:14:46.640 they actually say that Christopher Jordan, the person they accuse of being the shooter

00:14:51.180 now, was with Jones.

00:14:53.400 So it was an alibi for both people at the time of the murder, which is something that

00:14:58.200 the Jones family doesn't allege anymore.

00:15:00.080 And according to their theory of defense, is not possible because they claim that Jordan

00:15:05.420 was the shooter and Jones had nothing to do with anything.

00:15:08.160 So they've been lying and changing up this alibi all the way through.

00:15:12.540 The attorneys for Jones signed sworn statements saying that they knew that this alibi was false.

00:15:18.060 Their independent witness not only said and produced a receipt showing that it's false,

00:15:22.140 but she also claimed that she was threatened by the Jones family for coming out against the

00:15:27.700 alibi.

00:15:28.680 So this has already been adjudicated.

00:15:30.660 It's nonsensical.

00:15:32.000 He was not home.

00:15:32.960 And his family's lying.

00:15:35.580 Got it.

00:15:36.680 OK.

00:15:37.220 OK.

00:15:37.540 So say they say, all right.

00:15:39.620 Well, that's fine.

00:15:40.480 We won't we won't argue with you there.

00:15:42.500 But the Innocence Project would say Mr. Jones did not match the description of the person

00:15:46.900 who committed the crime, which was provided by a sole witness.

00:15:49.300 This is from the Innocence Project.

00:15:51.780 The person who killed Mr.

00:15:53.120 Howell was described as having one to two inches of hair, I think, outside of the cap that they

00:16:00.460 say he was wearing.

00:16:01.100 But Mr. Jones had a shaved head.

00:16:04.260 So how do you how do you respond to something like that?

00:16:09.180 So what they're talking about is Megan Tobey's description of Julius Jones.

00:16:13.060 That's the sister of Paul Howell, who is sitting in the passenger seat.

00:16:16.780 Yes.

00:16:17.200 And you could just ask her what she said or read the court's transcripts.

00:16:21.600 So she was asked at trial.

00:16:23.340 The person they're saying committed the crime is Christopher Westside Jordan.

00:16:27.480 He had cornrows, like long hair that are that are braided.

00:16:31.280 So they asked at trial, because this was the theory of defense at trial, if what she was 0.98

00:16:37.060 talking about when she was describing the hair was cornrows or braids.

00:16:40.680 She specifically said she did not see cornrows or braids at trial.

00:16:45.080 When she talks about the hair, she's talking about a stocking cap that goes over the eyebrows

00:16:49.300 and over the ear.

00:16:50.600 And if you listen to her description or read it at trial, she says that the hair that she's

00:16:55.200 talking about is the inch or half an inch in and around where the ear connects to the

00:17:00.060 head.

00:17:00.400 And she's talking about the space between that hair and the stocking cap.

00:17:04.120 So what she's describing is a sideburn.

00:17:06.300 It's two dimensional space.

00:17:07.620 It's not three dimensional space.

00:17:09.380 And it's not like I'm speculating on this.

00:17:12.440 Megan Tobey did an interview in early October where they asked her specifically about her

00:17:17.620 description and she explained it.

00:17:19.200 Megan Tobey also went to both the clemency and the pardon and parole board hearing for

00:17:24.840 Julius Jones.

00:17:25.720 And even though this is like the big thing for their defense and the members of the pardon

00:17:29.940 and the parole board are in the tank for Julius Jones and they could have asked her questions

00:17:34.380 about her description, they didn't ask one question after she brought up this highly contested

00:17:40.020 fact because people aren't really interested in the facts of the case.

00:17:44.080 They're just interested in glomming on to whatever little pieces of whatever they could find

00:17:48.980 in the transcript out of context to make the case for innocence.

00:17:53.320 And what do you say to the contention that three people incarcerated with Mr. Jordan at

00:18:05.920 different times have said in sworn affidavits that Mr. Jordan told each of them that he committed

00:18:10.880 the murder and that he actually framed Mr. Jones.

00:18:14.620 None of these three men, the Innocence Project says, have met Mr. Jones and they do not know

00:18:19.520 one another.

00:18:20.540 None of them have been offered a shorter sentence or incentive in exchange for disclosing Mr.

00:18:24.980 Jordan's confessions.

00:18:26.000 Well, jailhouse confessions often come up in high profile cases and the character and credibility

00:18:34.800 of these witnesses are in question, to say the least.

00:18:38.660 One of them is a convicted murderer.

00:18:41.480 He murdered a child, his stepchild or his girlfriend's child, by pouring scalding hot water.

00:18:48.140 I apologize for everybody in the audience.

00:18:50.740 Yeah.

00:18:50.980 On that child with kids, you might.

00:18:52.400 Well, you might not want to listen to this episode with kids, but especially this description.

00:18:56.080 But go on.

00:18:56.580 It's fine. 1.00

00:18:57.580 He poured scalding hot water on on his girlfriend's child's genitals. 1.00

00:19:02.220 That's how he murdered that person. 1.00

00:19:03.800 He's also been adjudicated a sociopath, a pathological liar. 0.94

00:19:07.620 And you'll see this pattern over and over again with the people that Jones's attorneys would 0.93

00:19:12.440 bring forward.

00:19:13.280 On top of that, this is very depressing for everybody out there.

00:19:16.700 When people come out in support of Julius Jones in prison, no matter how bad their story is,

00:19:22.460 no matter how loose their connection with Christopher Jordan is, their prison commissary

00:19:27.740 accounts get flooded with money.

00:19:29.520 So there is an incentive to lie for Christopher Jordan.

00:19:33.120 And there are confessions from Julius Jones that were never brought up against him in trial

00:19:39.300 because they were adjudicated to be uncredible, even though they supported the prosecution's

00:19:45.300 case.

00:19:45.540 So the idea that there's confessions here and there, like these jailhouse confessions,

00:19:50.140 they always show up.

00:19:51.520 A bunch of them have been adjudicated.

00:19:53.200 There's one that was recent that wasn't adjudicated.

00:19:55.960 But again, it's another situation with a pathological lie or a history of crimes of dishonesty that they

00:20:02.000 don't add anything new that's not in the headlines to the case.

00:20:05.740 So they're not really credible confessions.

00:20:08.320 Unlike one of the confessions that Jones gave, where he described a girl waving to him in

00:20:13.740 the backseat of the vehicle, which was in that description from somebody who said Jones

00:20:19.520 told them that he shot Howe.

00:20:21.140 And it was given to the police by Rachel Howe, which is the daughter of Paul Howe at the time.

00:20:26.780 Right.

00:20:26.940 So there's no connecting information from any of these confessions that give us anything

00:20:31.000 new.

00:20:31.840 Right.

00:20:32.300 So you're saying that the pathological liar was one of the three people incarcerated who

00:20:37.160 apparently signed a sworn affidavit saying that Mr. Jordan confessed to committing the

00:20:40.820 murder. 0.96

00:20:41.140 One of those people was a pathological liar. 0.99

00:20:42.880 You're saying? 0.98

00:20:43.140 No, no, no, no, no, not one of them.

00:20:44.920 All three of them have been either adjudicated with some kind of mental or sociopathic disorder, 0.64

00:20:49.980 and multiple of them have been adjudicated as like pathological liars, like they have

00:20:54.760 crimes of dishonesty in their past.

00:20:57.720 One of them actually had a personal vendetta against Julius Jones's prosecuting attorney.

00:21:02.700 But there's like different things that you can go through all of them.

00:21:05.260 But it's actually a miracle.

00:21:07.480 And maybe it's not a miracle because these are people coming out for attention that they've

00:21:11.560 been adjudicated in such a way with all these different, I don't want, I don't know if

00:21:16.120 disability is the correct word, but all these different mental issues.

00:21:19.220 Yeah, does Mr. Jordan have mental disabilities that are, have been cited?

00:21:25.360 Christopher Jordan?

00:21:26.240 I don't know.

00:21:27.340 I don't know about him personally.

00:21:28.660 He's been very quiet.

00:21:29.620 You mentioned that he, you mentioned that he was an unintelligent co-defendant.

00:21:35.440 I didn't know if you were implying that he has some kind of cognitive disability.

00:21:40.420 No, when they claim that Christopher Jordan, who was 19 years old, uneducated, that he

00:21:46.580 planted DNA not known to exist in 1999 with one day's notice, that's when I'm making fun

00:21:53.000 of his intelligence.

00:21:54.480 Gotcha.

00:21:55.060 Gotcha.

00:21:55.600 Okay.

00:21:56.160 So you're saying that we can't really rely on these sworn affidavits from the people who

00:22:00.780 apparently said that Mr. Jordan said that he committed the murder.

00:22:06.340 Now, they also contend that in exchange for testifying that Mr. Jones was the shooter,

00:22:13.460 Mr. Jordan was given a plea deal for his alleged role as the getaway driver.

00:22:18.500 He served 15 years in prison and today is free.

00:22:22.060 What do you say to that?

00:22:24.220 So he is free and he did testify against Julius Jones and he did get a plea deal.

00:22:29.180 Now, he didn't get 15 years.

00:22:31.340 He actually got 30 years with a life sentence on top of it.

00:22:36.000 So it was a full life sentence with 30 years suspended.

00:22:40.000 And this is because in the state of Oklahoma, like many other states, if you participate

00:22:43.760 in the underlying felony and somebody dies, you can be charged with felony murder.

00:22:48.380 And that's not a discounted charge.

00:22:50.180 So Christopher Jordan was facing the death penalty, which, by the way, is a key point because

00:22:55.340 one of the jailhouse confessors has Jones as the driver, which would have made him guilty

00:23:00.640 of felony murder, which would have made him up for the death penalty anyway, which is one

00:23:04.520 of the reasons why they didn't present that at trial.

00:23:07.360 So Joe Jordan did plead guilty and he did testify against Julius Jones.

00:23:13.280 But the idea that he got 15 years, that's not really true.

00:23:17.180 He got 30.

00:23:17.920 And then after the fact, the Department of Corrections in Oklahoma changed how they calculate their

00:23:24.540 sentences.

00:23:25.620 And that's how he got early.

00:23:26.960 So what the Innocence Project often alleges is that there was a secret deal between the

00:23:32.240 district attorney and the and the Jordan camp, and it was not disclosed well enough to the

00:23:37.560 jury.

00:23:38.060 Therefore, they didn't know how to treat the testimony.

00:23:40.680 But the thing is, is that if you read the transcripts, Jordan's testimony was not key.

00:23:45.820 The testimony from people like Megan Tobey or Julius Jones's own girlfriend were far more

00:23:52.080 crucial in convicting him in this case.

00:23:54.400 And in the state of Oklahoma, everything the co-defendant says has to be verified by a third

00:23:59.260 party.

00:24:00.080 So like everything Jordan would have brought to the table had to be verified by somebody

00:24:04.900 else.

00:24:05.500 Right.

00:24:06.160 Anyway.

00:24:06.900 Right.

00:24:07.200 And what's interesting as well, and as you describe the the alleged cover up and framing

00:24:16.560 and collusion between Mr. Jordan and the defense, I am thinking about the fact that the Innocence

00:24:27.840 Project obviously says that the verdict was based on racial bias.

00:24:32.180 They talk about the fact that Mr. Howell was a white man.

00:24:35.120 This happened in a predominantly white neighborhood.

00:24:37.720 District attorney Bob Macy, who I'm guessing is white.

00:24:41.740 He racialized this crime right away.

00:24:44.880 Eleven out of the 12 jurors in Mr. Jones's trial were white, which, by the way, is not

00:24:50.500 strange.

00:24:51.360 The jury is chosen based on the population of, you know, where the crime took place and where

00:24:58.480 it's being adjudicated.

00:24:59.220 But so they say that this is this is racist.

00:25:03.060 But in order to claim that in order to claim that you also have to you have to claim, I

00:25:11.160 don't know, that it would also be racist against Mr. Jordan, who was also black.

00:25:15.460 So it confuses me that they think that the prosecution I think I said the defense earlier,

00:25:20.360 the process of the prosecution they're saying colluded with Mr. Jordan.

00:25:24.760 Right.

00:25:25.720 Right.

00:25:25.960 OK, so the same prosecution that they are saying racist are racist colluded with Christopher

00:25:33.140 Jordan in order to convict Julius Jones.

00:25:38.220 I'm trying to get this all straight.

00:25:39.580 And I guess I'm just failing to understand how then the prosecution is racist, because

00:25:45.720 either way they would have been trying to convict a black man.

00:25:48.580 So can you help me unpack their argument there that this has something to do with, I guess,

00:25:54.100 white supremacy when the person that they are saying actually committed the crime is also

00:25:58.040 black and would have gotten the death penalty if he had been found guilty of murder? 0.95

00:26:02.060 Right. 0.96

00:26:02.660 I mean, I call this the and I apologize for the vulgarity in this statement, but I call this

00:26:08.640 like the farting in a room effect is if you just fart in a room and then people smell it,

00:26:14.200 there'll be a little bit off put by it.

00:26:15.760 But it's not really key to what's going on everywhere else in the room. 0.96

00:26:19.960 So the all the allegations of racism in this case are are pretty ridiculous. 0.95

00:26:24.880 They they allege that even portraying a black man as coming into a white neighborhood like 0.98

00:26:31.440 Edmund and killing somebody for a car.

00:26:34.180 This is actually in the documentary for Julius Jones's defense, which is produced by the

00:26:39.500 Innocence Project and is presented as something more neutral than it actually is as as as a

00:26:46.400 racist stereotype.

00:26:47.340 But again, the as you pointed out, the the defense's theory of the case is that it was

00:26:53.540 not Julius Jones, but the other black guy involved, Christopher Jordan, who came into the white

00:26:59.680 neighborhood and shot Paul Howell and killed him like their arguments for the death penalty 0.93

00:27:03.960 are absurd.

00:27:04.560 They'll claim that even pursuing the death penalty in this case, I'm sorry, their arguments

00:27:09.500 for racism are absurd.

00:27:11.140 They'll claim that even pursuing the death penalty in this case is a mark of racism against the

00:27:15.980 prosecution, which makes no sense.

00:27:18.360 They do the almost all white jury.

00:27:20.380 If it was an all white jury, they'd say all white jury. 0.60

00:27:23.140 But again, Edmund was 85 percent white as they lay out in their own like little hit piece 1.00

00:27:28.020 on the city. 0.87

00:27:28.740 And I find it incredibly disgusting that somebody can come into your community and murder a member

00:27:34.240 of your community in front of his family.

00:27:36.340 And then your community goes on trial as being evil and racist, because apparently in the

00:27:43.400 1960s, people moved there to get away from crime in the city. 0.89

00:27:47.660 And that was somehow code for for moving away from black people. 1.00

00:27:51.360 It makes no it makes no sense. 0.98

00:27:53.160 It's absurd.

00:27:53.940 The social justice side always does that.

00:27:56.780 They if something that they don't like happens in the present, then they say, well, this is

00:28:02.180 connected to something that happened 50 years ago without actually logically or factually

00:28:07.620 laying out how those things are connected.

00:28:09.220 Of course, that's the whole thing with the 1619 project, this unbroken legacy of slavery

00:28:14.320 that they say, you know, leads to every disparity between white and black Americans today.

00:28:19.560 Thomas Sowell has completely has completely busted that myth.

00:28:24.360 But it's the same thing that you are saying.

00:28:25.800 They're saying, well, this case obviously was tried and decided upon based on racial animus

00:28:34.540 because of this thing that happened in Oklahoma in the 1960s.

00:28:38.220 And so this is their version of justice, which is it's completely unjust because you're basically

00:28:44.320 punishing people who did nothing wrong by exoriating them, like he just said in the press

00:28:49.560 for being too white, being white supremacist and also taking justice away from Paul Howell's

00:28:55.360 family. 0.95

00:28:55.740 Right.

00:28:56.800 Yeah.

00:28:57.640 A hundred percent.

00:28:58.920 Yeah.

00:28:59.100 And and again, like the how family, the more you learn about them, the more this story

00:29:03.420 becomes heartbreaking.

00:29:04.780 And like, that's why I've done so many videos on it, because like they have not had this

00:29:11.640 press arm.

00:29:12.760 These people advocate for them in the way that the other side has.

00:29:16.040 The other side is Kim Kardashian.

00:29:17.320 I always talk about how they had something like 400 followers on Facebook at the time

00:29:22.240 that I discovered the case.

00:29:24.060 And Kim Kardashian is on the other side of this.

00:29:26.680 She has three thirty nine million followers on Twitter, something like that.

00:29:30.320 Viola Davis is there.

00:29:31.460 All these different celebrities, Baker Mayfield, like athletes are in this and they all just

00:29:36.160 paint this propaganda of Julius Jones being this great student at Oklahoma University.

00:29:41.280 He was kicked out of Oklahoma University.

00:29:43.060 They'll talk about him as an athlete.

00:29:44.440 He never played for any OU team and everything that apparently, according to them, ruined

00:29:50.980 Julius Jones's life is all external.

00:29:53.380 When in reality, if you look at his criminal record, if you look at his pawn receipts, if

00:29:57.120 you listen to his own girlfriend who he threatened when her testimony was so damning for him at

00:30:02.860 trial, like in letters, he threatened this woman.

00:30:06.600 It's Jones destroyed his own life.

00:30:08.880 This has nothing to do with racism.

00:30:10.440 He destroyed Paul Howe's life and his family's lives.

00:30:12.960 This has nothing to do with white flight in 1965.

00:30:17.260 Yeah, it's about the facts of the case.

00:30:19.740 It's about a family that lost their father and had to witness that loss.

00:30:27.380 I want to get into how this starts, like how does this start to snowball with something

00:30:31.740 like the Innocence Project?

00:30:32.980 But I first want to ask you, you mentioned his girlfriend's testimony.

00:30:36.620 I'm just interested to hear what did she say?

00:30:38.540 So, so Julius Jones contends consistently that he had no serious criminal record and the

00:30:44.840 Innocence Project, you'll, you might see that he was never convicted of anything violent

00:30:48.620 at the time of his trial.

00:30:50.140 It's because they convicted at the time of his arrest.

00:30:52.380 It's because they convicted him after the fact.

00:30:54.480 So what his girlfriend does is essentially tie him to a bunch of jewelry store robberies where 1.00

00:31:00.700 Jones wore the suspect in that case, which was Jones, wore bandanas, stocking caps, et

00:31:06.040 cetera, by pointing out to the court that she discovered the gun that Julius Jones used in

00:31:13.700 the Paul Howe murder in his car.

00:31:16.280 And Jones claimed that he did in fact have the, that that gun was him, that gun belonged

00:31:21.400 to him and he used it for protection.

00:31:23.360 So she also, she also ties them to the jewelry store robberies because Jones gave her four 0.56

00:31:29.140 chains from one of the robberies and he took back three immediately.

00:31:32.860 And there's three specific pawn receipts that coincide with that date.

00:31:37.720 And he left her with one and then he took back the one on a later date.

00:31:41.260 And there's a pawn receipt that coincides with that in Julius Jones's name.

00:31:45.560 So her testimony out of all the different testimonies that were put forward is one of

00:31:49.920 the most devastating, which is one of the reasons why Julius Jones actually sent her

00:31:53.440 threatening letters throughout the course of the trial.

00:31:56.140 And the innocence project was making the case that these letters didn't exist, that the 0.69

00:32:00.420 prosecution just made them up, which is ridiculous.

00:32:03.360 And in Jones's clemency hearing, Jones admitted to sending these letters because Jones never

00:32:08.980 testified up until this very like recent hearing.

00:32:12.880 So they just lie consistently, but they can't really get around the fact that Julius Jones's

00:32:19.040 girlfriend who had every reason to lie for him produced probably absent Megan Tobey, the 0.93

00:32:25.340 most devastating testimony against him.

00:32:28.200 Right.

00:32:29.040 And remind everyone where you get this information.

00:32:32.980 Like, how do you read in and garner all of these facts that seem to be lost on those people

00:32:37.420 in the media?

00:32:39.080 Well, I've actually had the entire trial transcripts sent to me.

00:32:42.160 They are available, but Oklahoma has like an older system.

00:32:45.660 So you have to request them in person or have somebody request them in person for you.

00:32:51.860 So all I need is somebody to go to Oklahoma on my behalf and send me the whole transcript

00:32:57.300 because they're paper records.

00:32:59.040 But also the prosecution puts out like bullet points for this, like Prater, he'll put out

00:33:05.080 his whole theory of the case and they'll go in and dispute every single aspect of Julius

00:33:11.000 Jones's story in like a succinct document.

00:33:13.760 I link to it under every single one of my videos on the case because it's about 12 pages.

00:33:19.000 And all you would have to do is be willing and interested and knowledgeable that there is

00:33:24.180 another side to a case like the Julius Jones case.

00:33:27.360 And you could find this evidence out there.

00:33:29.480 Yeah.

00:33:29.980 One of the things that we I've discovered is that people and not just far leftists,

00:33:35.500 unfortunately, don't even consider that another side of this case exists, which is ridiculous.

00:33:42.160 Well, people don't want to consider that because the last thing, of course, that you want to

00:33:46.440 be called and it's almost tiring to even say.

00:33:48.320 But the last thing that people want to be called is some kind of racist spigot that is just,

00:33:52.740 you know, bloodthirsty and wanting an innocent man to walk to his death.

00:33:56.160 And plus, I think a lot of people think, well, this doesn't really affect me.

00:33:59.280 It doesn't affect me that this person isn't getting the death penalty or maybe they're

00:34:03.320 just against the death penalty.

00:34:04.420 So they don't really care about the facts of the case.

00:34:06.320 So they're like, well, he's not getting the death penalty.

00:34:08.420 That's good.

00:34:09.180 And they don't really care about the truth because it puts them in this uncomfortable

00:34:12.440 position of being against the Kim Kardashians, even being against a lot of people.

00:34:16.720 This is a Christian podcast.

00:34:18.300 A lot of people in the church who are saying, yes, this is justice.

00:34:22.020 Yes, this is great.

00:34:23.380 You don't want to be the lone voice to raise your hand and say, well, actually, the facts

00:34:27.440 don't point to the conclusion that people like the Innocence Project are asserting.

00:34:35.540 And I want to talk about that.

00:34:37.680 Like, how does this happen?

00:34:39.740 Who picks the people who are on death row?

00:34:43.760 And like, who scouts them out and says, you know what?

00:34:46.700 Like, I'm going to pick this person.

00:34:48.240 I'm going to try to get them exonerated.

00:34:49.920 I'm going to, you know, make a documentary about this person and get Kim Kardashian and

00:34:54.180 Viola Davis to talk about this.

00:34:55.800 So this becomes this big PR effort towards this person so that there seems like there

00:35:00.380 is no other side to it.

00:35:02.360 How does how does this start?

00:35:03.960 Tell us a little bit if you know about the Innocence Project and what their process is.

00:35:09.280 Well, the Innocence Project, I can't tell you about the inner workings of of their organization.

00:35:15.880 But what I can tell you is that one of the founders of the Innocence Project, and I forget 0.70

00:35:20.600 which attorney it was, and I apologize for not knowing the name offhand, was one of OJ

00:35:25.900 Simpson's attorneys.

00:35:27.280 So like that's that was the impetus for this person starting the Innocence Project.

00:35:31.880 Now, if you know anything about the OJ Simpson case, he's 100 percent guilty.

00:35:36.800 So from its inception, the Innocence Project is all about getting guilty people off for

00:35:41.440 these crimes.

00:35:42.600 But what they really are as an organization fundamentally is an anti-death penalty organization.

00:35:48.320 But what one of the things that they found out through their time working these cases is

00:35:53.520 that arguing against the morality of the death penalty isn't as effective as making the

00:35:58.640 case that there's all these innocent people that are on death row that shouldn't be executed.

00:36:03.820 So they've kind of shifted focus in their advocacy.

00:36:06.600 They're kind of hiding the ball.

00:36:08.480 And so they make these cases.

00:36:10.560 So these cases a lot ideologically are about opposition to the death penalty.

00:36:14.460 And that's one of the reasons why you can watch attorneys and these documentary films just

00:36:20.020 skew so much information and leave so much out that you could never get away within a court

00:36:25.300 of law because it's activism.

00:36:26.820 It's not about actually proving somebody innocent like the Jones clemency push was never about

00:36:32.400 actually demonstrating innocence.

00:36:34.280 It was about just getting enough signatures, getting enough people hyped on that side in

00:36:39.860 order to basically force the governor's hand.

00:36:43.040 Gotcha.

00:36:43.840 And so they just get people like Viola Davis and Kim Kardashian on board by saying, look at

00:36:48.820 this innocent black man who is a victim of our white supremacist system.

00:36:52.680 And we need your voice to basically amplify his innocence.

00:36:56.940 And for most people who don't spend a lot of time reading the transcripts like you do,

00:37:01.200 I mean, you know, like I said, they're not going to go up against those kinds of voices.

00:37:05.440 And it sounds like such an honorable pursuit.

00:37:08.040 And I mean, I am for obviously the exoneration of people who are innocent or who are not guilty

00:37:16.500 beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:37:18.040 I don't want someone, gosh, to be executed or spend the rest of his or her life in prison

00:37:23.180 who didn't commit a crime that they were put in jail for.

00:37:26.720 I am absolutely for that.

00:37:27.920 What I am not for is the propaganda effort that purposely leaves out facts in order to

00:37:33.220 stir people's emotion and removes from people seemingly their mental faculties, their ability

00:37:40.580 to think logically and use reasoning and actually sift through real facts.

00:37:46.180 That's what I'm not for.

00:37:47.120 I'm not for the propaganda effort that seems to be behind this because justice is not going

00:37:53.340 to be accomplished with lies.

00:37:55.860 Lying and deceit is not justice.

00:37:58.360 Do you agree?

00:37:59.680 Yes, 100 percent.

00:38:00.940 And I do want to make the point that that's the Innocence Project is overall like an anti-death

00:38:05.860 mental of the organization.

00:38:07.580 But the Kim Kardashian and these other celebrities, part of the reason and by the way, Kim Kardashian

00:38:12.120 is connected to the Innocence Project because her father's Robert Kardashian.

00:38:15.660 And he was a great friend of OJ and he actually helped recommend and assemble the Dream Team

00:38:20.460 for OJ to beat his case at the time.

00:38:23.240 So like that's her connection to that.

00:38:25.120 But the celebrity push is a lot about like they've taken it a step further because not

00:38:30.680 only the anti-death penalty, but they're specifically anti and this looks like it's one of the parameters

00:38:36.160 that they pick for these cases is anti-black people getting convicted or the death penalty 0.99

00:38:41.800 when they kill white people. 0.97

00:38:43.800 Like if you look at the cases that Kim Kardashian has highlighted specifically, like this appears 0.98

00:38:48.900 to be what she's targeting.

00:38:50.480 So whether they whether they frame somebody or try to paint it as as they're innocent in

00:38:55.480 the way that the Jones team did, where they point to somebody who's already been tried

00:39:00.180 and convicted in relation to the crime, therefore they can't be tried again.

00:39:03.740 Or they're trying to frame other people that have nothing to do with this.

00:39:07.540 Like it has a real impact.

00:39:08.800 And there's other cases out there and I would be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that

00:39:13.960 Kim Kardashian also appears to be hiring, not highlighting not only cases where black 0.81

00:39:19.760 people kill white people, but cases where the black person has an alliterated name. 0.97

00:39:24.800 Like it's a weird pattern. 0.99

00:39:26.440 Julius Jones, Rodney Reed, Crystal Kaiser, Brendan Bernard.

00:39:32.180 Yes, it's Kevin Cooper.

00:39:34.360 It's very it's very creepy and odd.

00:39:37.380 And I do believe for sure that there's some.

00:39:40.480 Yes, it's called the alliterati.

00:39:42.140 My friend Devin Tracy has taken note of this.

00:39:45.540 It's because you think it's easier for the public to it rolls off your tongue better.

00:39:50.300 It's better for PR.

00:39:51.120 I mean, I hate that sounds so cynical and evil, but I mean, we're talking about a propaganda

00:39:56.220 effort in some of these cases.

00:39:57.620 I'm not saying all just because I don't know the details of all of the cases of the people

00:40:01.140 that you just listed.

00:40:02.560 But I mean, there are a lot of people on death row.

00:40:05.960 And so the fact that a lot of a lot of the people that she is choosing apparently have these

00:40:12.400 alliterations in their names, it seems like that could be because it rolls off the tongue

00:40:18.880 better, it's easier to remember, and that would be a public relations win, right?

00:40:23.760 I think there is marketing.

00:40:25.500 But I also think that Kim Kardashian, obviously, the Kardashian family is kind of obsessed with

00:40:30.260 the alliteration.

00:40:31.380 Like, that's why they're all named KK and all that. 0.98

00:40:34.320 So I do think there's like just a dumb, childish element to it. 0.92

00:40:38.580 And like, I don't want to get too conspiratorial or anything with the reason behind it. 0.99

00:40:42.260 But so I'm just going to say it's a dumb, childish element to it. 0.98

00:40:45.140 Because it's really weird that you found 10 or so people that are all black people that 0.98

00:40:51.420 killed white people all have rock solid cases, by the way, like a lot of them, like the DNA 0.93

00:40:56.180 tested in Julius Jones, they have requested DNA testing, which, by the way, I 100% agree

00:41:01.400 with.

00:41:01.740 If we didn't have the science to determine whether or not your DNA was on something back

00:41:06.520 in the day and you on appeal want that tested, I'm in support of that for sure.

00:41:12.060 But when the DNA matches the person that was convicted, like you should drop the case.

00:41:17.380 So a lot of them have that pattern along with it.

00:41:19.580 But yeah, the alliteration, maybe it's a marketing thing.

00:41:23.460 Maybe it's just something that makes Kim Kardashian feel connected to it.

00:41:27.380 But it is noticeable, especially when you get to this many cases that this is a pattern

00:41:32.260 for her specifically and her involvement in this.

00:41:35.460 The Innocence Project should just be honest that they're anti-death penalty.

00:41:38.980 But I understand why they're not, because like you said, if you say, hey, we know that

00:41:44.680 this person, I'm not even talking about Julius Jones, Brandon Bernard, whoever, we know that

00:41:50.000 this person committed this heinous crime.

00:41:51.720 Here's what they did.

00:41:52.560 I think that there was someone who was executed last year, federally executed for a brutal

00:41:57.640 murder. 0.95

00:41:58.120 He was a black man. 0.99

00:41:59.060 He brutally murdered his like two-year-old daughter in the front seat of his truck. 0.99

00:42:03.100 It was terrible, terrible case.

00:42:04.560 If you say that, like if you describe to people what these people actually did or what was

00:42:11.180 proven against them beyond a reasonable doubt, people are less likely to say that they shouldn't

00:42:16.020 get the death penalty.

00:42:17.020 I mean, in theory, people are against the death penalty.

00:42:19.740 But when you read people, the terrible crimes that were allegedly committed by a lot of these

00:42:25.320 people, they say, OK, I might be against the death penalty, but I don't really care if

00:42:30.060 that person dies.

00:42:30.820 And so it's a lot more persuasive for the Innocence Project to say, not only are we against

00:42:37.500 the death penalty, but this person didn't even commit the crime.

00:42:40.140 That is not palatable, understandably, for most people to have a possibly innocent man

00:42:45.220 be executed or a woman be executed. 1.00

00:42:47.940 So it makes sense why they do that.

00:42:50.920 But it's dishonest.

00:42:52.240 If you're just against the death penalty, just be against the death penalty.

00:42:55.200 Like Julius Jones is going to still spend the rest of his life in prison, right?

00:42:58.100 Yeah, I mean, hopefully there's always a chance that you can get out of prison, even though

00:43:05.240 Oklahoma has a weird quirk in their constitution that once the governor gets clemency once,

00:43:10.940 it's basically impossible, according to their current constitution, for you to get out in

00:43:15.680 the future.

00:43:16.140 But I'm of the belief that there's no such thing as life without parole.

00:43:19.780 Eventually, a lot of these people will get out, whether they become elderly and they can't

00:43:23.640 be really cared for in in a prison.

00:43:26.240 They'll get out eventually.

00:43:27.780 But you're 100 percent right.

00:43:29.480 The the push for claiming that these people are innocent is all about practicality and

00:43:35.060 undermining the institution that is the death penalty, because most Americans are still in 0.54

00:43:39.620 favor of the death penalty, especially when you give them specific cases and details related

00:43:44.160 to these cases.

00:43:44.820 So but Americans have pause and they should have pause when we're discussing somebody potentially 0.73

00:43:50.460 being innocent, executed for no reason.

00:43:53.120 So that's why they frame all these stories as like, oh, racial bias led to this innocent

00:43:58.700 person being put up on death row.

00:44:00.900 And there's a feeling that if they can get enough people on death row, reduce sentence, which

00:44:05.900 they always call exonerations, which we could talk about their how they pad the numbers of

00:44:10.060 exonerations another time.

00:44:12.060 But they they they get all these people reduced.

00:44:15.680 And the idea is to create enough doubt in the American population's mind with how our

00:44:20.460 justice system works so that they can undermine the death penalty, because most people, if

00:44:25.060 you ask them, is the death penalty worth it if you execute innocent, people will say no.

00:44:29.780 Right.

00:44:30.060 So that's why they're trying to artificially boost the number of innocent people on death

00:44:34.280 row.

00:44:34.560 So, yeah, which, you know, I think that there are there's a political there, practical cases

00:44:40.240 to be made against the death penalty.

00:44:42.460 That's fine.

00:44:43.240 I don't I don't hear that's not necessarily your contention with this whole thing.

00:44:47.260 It's the propaganda behind whether or not he is innocent.

00:44:50.820 And I do think that the governor of Oklahoma, his his choice to say, OK, he's not going to

00:44:56.780 get the death penalty does seem to add fuel to their to their fire, because he's not just

00:45:02.220 saying, OK, we're against the death penalty in Oklahoma.

00:45:04.160 He's saying that this guy is probably innocent.

00:45:08.160 And it's just interesting how I mean, propaganda really can change policy.

00:45:13.940 It can change the course of someone's life because people, like I said, they just don't

00:45:19.840 have the effort or the energy rather to push back against it, because who wants to be against

00:45:25.560 this mammoth movement of exonerating people who are on death row?

00:45:31.320 No one wants to be on the side of injustice.

00:45:34.320 Right.

00:45:35.340 I will say just really quickly, and I'm sorry for for interrupting, but that's fine.

00:45:40.100 Governor Kevin Stitt did affirm Julius Jones's guilt in his commutation of Julius Jones.

00:45:45.600 OK.

00:45:45.960 And that's why he put in his parameters that Jones can never seek any more of these hearings

00:45:51.920 or anything like that.

00:45:53.100 He has to be removed, removed from death row and put in general population like a normal

00:45:57.600 What was his reasoning for what was his reasoning for taking the death penalty off the table

00:46:02.180 then?

00:46:03.200 I mean, he was lobbied heavily, not just by lefties and but by some conservatives.

00:46:08.560 There's rumors from according to Julius Jones's original lawyer at trial, who I spoke to the

00:46:15.040 day that they got clemency, David McKenzie, that the that Kim Kardashian contacted former

00:46:20.980 President Trump and former President Trump or one of his advisors asked for the commutation

00:46:26.140 of Jones.

00:46:26.900 So there's people who are generally right about this.

00:46:30.140 Trump resumed federal executions that can be swept up in these propaganda campaigns.

00:46:35.120 I just think they put so much pressure that Kevin Stitt went for a compromise.

00:46:39.000 But the compromise, because of the way Oklahoma's constitution works, is a compromise that's 90 percent

00:46:45.020 in favor of the Jones is guilty side and 10 percent in favor of the Innocence Project side, because

00:46:50.820 the way Oklahoma has laid it out, he's basically going to be more disadvantaged now than he was

00:46:57.540 on death row. 0.61

00:46:59.100 And, you know, that sucks for people who are on death row and they don't have an alliteration

00:47:05.760 for their name and they don't get the attention of Kim Kardashian, who may be the same case could

00:47:11.140 be made for them, that they don't deserve to die, but they're not going to get the favor

00:47:16.580 of the Oklahoma governor, who says that he did this by prayer, by the way, not because

00:47:21.060 he was lobbied.

00:47:22.420 I guess in his prayer, he didn't he didn't feel led by the spirit to commute the sentences

00:47:29.440 of other people who are on death row.

00:47:31.840 And so was it Kim Kardashian and Trump or was it God?

00:47:34.960 We don't really know.

00:47:36.160 We don't really know.

00:47:36.940 But that seems a little bit that doesn't seem like justice because it seems unfair.

00:47:41.620 It seems like he is getting favorable treatment simply because he had Viola Davis and a, you

00:47:46.380 know, a large organization behind him.

00:47:51.960 OK, I want to talk about just we don't have very much time, but I haven't talked about yet

00:47:57.420 because I took a couple of weeks off for Thanksgiving.

00:48:00.080 What happened in Waukesha with Daryl Brooks?

00:48:02.940 You already know this, but for people who didn't know, who don't know, he's 39 years

00:48:07.300 old.

00:48:07.740 He drove a red SUV through a Christmas parade and he killed six people, including eight

00:48:13.620 year old Jackson Sparks.

00:48:15.040 He also seriously injured his 12 year old brother.

00:48:19.020 He's a registered sex offender.

00:48:20.700 He has a very violent criminal history.

00:48:22.800 He actually recently tried to he's charged with running over his girlfriend with the same

00:48:28.200 red SUV that he used to plow through this Christmas parade.

00:48:32.360 He was let out on a thousand dollar bail after he was charged with that crime.

00:48:37.940 They're now, of course, saying that that was inappropriately low.

00:48:41.260 But that's a pattern throughout the country of criminals being released on low bail and

00:48:47.940 then going out and murdering or committing some kind of act of violence.

00:48:53.220 And really, the thing that I think is stunning about this is not just that that piece is stunning

00:48:58.840 that he was released on a thousand dollar bail.

00:49:00.780 But how the media is describing this, CNN said that they tweeted on November 28th that

00:49:08.580 it has been one week since a car drove through a city Christmas parade.

00:49:12.660 The Washington Post tweeted on November 24th that there was a Waukesha tragedy caused by an

00:49:20.480 SUV.

00:49:21.080 And then there was it's not on my sheet, but there was another CNN tweet that also said

00:49:27.000 that this was caused by an SUV.

00:49:28.900 So you've even got celebrities like Deborah Messing saying this wasn't this was not an

00:49:33.280 accident.

00:49:33.600 Call it by its name.

00:49:34.660 It was a domestic terror attack, which I happen to agree for the first time, perhaps with 1.00

00:49:38.520 Deborah Messing.

00:49:40.020 So tell me your thoughts on this.

00:49:42.380 Why is the media covering this the way that it is?

00:49:45.380 Are these victims going to see justice?

00:49:47.520 What do you think?

00:49:48.020 I mean, I think the guy's going to be convicted.

00:49:51.300 So in that sense, the victims will receive justice.

00:49:54.260 I don't want to, you know, the guy the guy's basically on video driving his SUV that appears

00:49:59.940 in his music videos through through this crowd committing this crime.

00:50:04.200 So like whatever amount of justice our system can deliver in the state of Wisconsin, he should

00:50:08.740 get.

00:50:09.020 But I just want to point out that there is no known motive at all.

00:50:12.760 And you shouldn't look at any of his social media posts.

00:50:15.840 Yeah.

00:50:15.960 And we should talk about these these fully automatic assault SUVs, right?

00:50:21.740 Because apparently they just yeah.

00:50:23.740 And they just take off and on their own, they just attack crowds.

00:50:27.420 So it's really unfortunate.

00:50:28.860 Yeah.

00:50:29.160 But yeah, the while we don't actually know the motive and we can speculate on the motive,

00:50:34.160 we'll have to wait for the trial.

00:50:35.660 Hopefully he doesn't plea out and we actually can see what he has to say at trial, because

00:50:41.060 I do want to know what the motive is behind this.

00:50:42.940 What we do know for sure is that this soft bail kind of criminal justice reform where you just let

00:50:50.600 everybody out is a system that does not work.

00:50:53.560 This guy attempted a serious aggravated assault against his girlfriend like a week and a half

00:50:59.820 ago, two weeks ago.

00:51:00.860 And he was let out on a thousand dollars bail.

00:51:03.220 And the district attorney for this area is one of these George Soros backed, Sean King

00:51:09.000 backed DAs.

00:51:10.160 And I hate to I mean, I hate to invoke his name, but always when you see these kinds of

00:51:15.380 cases and you see this kind of history with the district attorney, like they're always

00:51:20.540 someone who was funded by George Soros every single time.

00:51:23.840 The same thing happens in Texas and Houston, in Austin and San Francisco, in L.A.

00:51:29.320 You look at all of these major cities where they're, you know, pretty new DAs, Chesa Boudin

00:51:34.560 in San Francisco.

00:51:36.120 They're always funded by George Soros.

00:51:39.320 And this this is part of the the social justice, criminal justice movements.

00:51:46.120 And it is fueled by their newfangled version of equity that they can't have too many people

00:51:52.660 of color in jail.

00:51:53.900 And so there needs to be lighter sentences.

00:51:56.380 There needs to be ways for them to be let out of prison.

00:51:59.960 They want bail reform.

00:52:01.380 They want to get rid of the bail system altogether.

00:52:03.920 We've seen the detrimental effects of that in places like New York City, obviously now in

00:52:08.160 Waukesha.

00:52:08.820 And so it's the exact opposite of justice.

00:52:12.180 And so, yeah, we're seeing this is just another effect of that.

00:52:15.580 But continue.

00:52:16.740 Yeah.

00:52:17.260 And to your point about about the bail reform, it's actually New York State.

00:52:20.680 So the whole state, everybody gets out on everything, basically.

00:52:23.980 And a lot of people who backed New York State's bail reform law, they considered it a model

00:52:29.060 are now talking about how they wouldn't have that Daryl Brooks.

00:52:32.800 He shouldn't have been let out of out of jail.

00:52:34.800 He has a history of bail jumping.

00:52:37.100 He committed a serious crime, assault, aggravated assault with the motor vehicle and all that.

00:52:41.600 The thing is, is that all these activists are full of you know what, because every crime

00:52:47.860 that Daryl Brooks committed in the state, if he would have committed them in the state

00:52:51.520 of New York under the new bail reform law that they champion that they say is a model would

00:52:56.940 have released him and he wouldn't have even had to pay the thousand dollars bail.

00:53:00.560 So aggravated assault with a vehicle in the state of New York, there's no bail for that

00:53:05.360 crime.

00:53:05.720 In fact, aggravated of aggravated manslaughter with the motor vehicle is something that you

00:53:11.140 don't get bail for in the state of New York.

00:53:13.360 You can't get bail for your past history of jumping bail, which is something that Daryl Brooks

00:53:17.840 had a history of doing not showing up for court and all that.

00:53:20.740 All the normal rational reasons why you would put a high bail on somebody are all banned

00:53:26.300 in New York state.

00:53:27.180 And this is the same like the D.A. in in in in Wisconsin.

00:53:32.460 He's cut from the same exact cloth.

00:53:34.660 These are the same exact principles.

00:53:36.580 The same people who supported him in in his pursuit of office supported the law in my state. 1.00

00:53:42.060 So like they're all full of garbage. 0.98

00:53:44.760 There's no way that any of these people are legitimate and serious. 0.99

00:53:48.820 They just see the consequences of the policies that they're advocating for, which, by the

00:53:53.900 way, when they were implemented by the district attorney in this area, he literally said, well,

00:53:58.600 we know for a fact that this is going to cause more people to die, but it's about like some

00:54:03.400 greater form of justice.

00:54:04.920 So we have to accept that we have to pay.

00:54:06.860 Yeah, exactly.

00:54:07.920 Man, that is like all Democratic.

00:54:09.520 That seems like it's so much of Democratic policy that, you know, once we achieve this

00:54:15.600 grand vision of cosmic justice, it's, you know, it's the same thing with a lot of the

00:54:19.720 economic issues that we're seeing today that is going to accomplish in the end the kind

00:54:25.100 of society that progressives want or they think so anyway.

00:54:28.500 And so the lives that are lost or the livelihoods that are lost in the process, well, that's

00:54:32.840 just collateral damage and it's still going towards the greater good.

00:54:36.340 And so I'm afraid that a lot of so-called criminal justice advocates, which is or it's an Orwellian

00:54:42.120 name the same way that Ministry of Peace or Ministry of Truth is in 1984, they are OK with

00:54:50.260 the loss of life, with danger, with violence, with chaos in the meantime, because I guess

00:54:54.840 they think that having fewer people in jail will somehow lead to some form of utopia, which

00:55:02.940 of course means nowhere.

00:55:04.120 It's never going to get here.

00:55:05.660 I don't know how, though, they think that these means will lead to that end.

00:55:12.320 How will more violence like what we saw in Waukesha, how will more death and more robbery,

00:55:17.100 more looting and more murder lead to a more peaceful society that criminal justice advocates

00:55:22.480 say is worth the cost that we're seeing right now?

00:55:26.520 Well, when they're when they're not connect, when you're not connected to reality and you

00:55:30.500 don't have any idea how our institutions in our criminal justice system are built up, you

00:55:36.880 make absurd claims like the reason there's so much violent crime is because we give violent

00:55:43.020 criminals too long of sentences.

00:55:45.100 We hold them too much on bail.

00:55:46.760 So they actually legitimately believed that if you let these people on out on bail or you

00:55:53.420 don't let give them bail at all, you just release them on their own recognizance, even when they're

00:55:58.280 not they've shown repeatedly that they're not the kind of people who will even show up to

00:56:02.840 court, which is the whole point of having a cash incentive like bail, that they'll actually

00:56:07.640 behave better because what our criminal justice system does is harden all these criminals.

00:56:13.100 So they have when you when you have something so basic as cause and effect backwards, this

00:56:19.000 is the kind of policy that you end up advocating for.

00:56:21.660 And these are the kind of results that you would expect.

00:56:24.260 Like everybody, you I like the analogy of you see a fence in the middle of the woods and

00:56:32.100 you don't exactly know what the purpose is.

00:56:34.320 And you could do two things.

00:56:35.580 You could tear down the fence and just wonder what happens.

00:56:38.660 Or you could try to discern its purpose before you act.

00:56:41.980 A lot of people on the far left tear it down immediately and then they find out that that's

00:56:46.780 the fence that cages in all the tigers and then they get tackled by tigers.

00:56:51.300 Right.

00:56:51.960 And yeah, people on both sides of the aisle, they're not going to tolerate this kind of

00:56:57.240 thing for long because human beings, it's just human nature.

00:57:00.620 We don't like anarchy.

00:57:02.240 We don't like violence.

00:57:03.780 We like to be able to leave our home and be able to rely on the fact that we'll be pretty

00:57:09.980 safe.

00:57:10.380 We don't like chaos.

00:57:11.720 And so the progressive ideologues who think that most of the country is going to tolerate

00:57:18.260 this kind of violence and injustice, it just doesn't like we've already the history tells

00:57:23.780 us this.

00:57:24.220 If you look at the history of New York City, for example, how it was riddled with crime

00:57:27.520 in the 1970s, people didn't want to tolerate that.

00:57:30.440 And then you can see the reforms that were made because Rudy Giuliani was so tough on crime.

00:57:35.560 It became a place where people actually wanted to go.

00:57:37.640 So history tells us how this is going to go.

00:57:40.500 Unfortunately, we don't know how many lives are going to be lost in the meantime because

00:57:44.340 of these DAs and other local officials that have been put in place.

00:57:47.940 There's so much there's so much more that I want to ask you.

00:57:50.300 We'll have to have you back on to talk about the criminal justice system or criminal justice

00:57:54.860 movement in general and our justice system, since you have such an extensive background

00:57:58.180 in that.

00:57:59.260 But we have to end.

00:58:00.420 Can you tell everyone where they can find you, how they can follow you?

00:58:03.640 Oh, OK.

00:58:04.320 You can find me on YouTube dot com slash actual justice warrior.

00:58:08.340 That's where I primarily post all of my content.

00:58:10.760 I'm also on Twitter at I am Sean 90 spelled the traditional Irish way S E A N.

00:58:17.320 And I can be found on Instagram, new Instagram at actual justice.

00:58:21.560 I know that's not the best brand integration, but I actually have the same thing.

00:58:26.300 I have a different Twitter handle.

00:58:27.580 It's fine.

00:58:28.580 It's fine.

00:58:29.100 People can duck, duck, go you and they'll figure it out.

00:58:31.820 Thank you so much, Sean, for taking the time to come on.

00:58:34.400 I really appreciate it.

00:58:36.520 And we'll provide the links to all that stuff in your previous videos on Julius Jones in the

00:58:42.200 description to this podcast.

00:58:43.440 So thank you so much.

00:58:44.740 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 02, 2021

Ep 532 ｜ The Case Against Julius Jones ｜ Guest： Sean Fitzgerald

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