Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 537 ｜ The Josh Duggar Case： Is Purity Culture to Blame？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend. Today

00:00:14.600 we are going to talk about the Josh Duggar case and what we can learn from it. We'll

00:00:19.000 look at some of the reactions to the verdict, respond to them, discuss how we should look

00:00:24.020 at this as Christians. I will talk about what happened, what the case was, why he was charged

00:00:29.440 and prosecuted, but I'll also kind of go down some different avenues that I thought of while

00:00:34.260 I was preparing for this episode and some of the cultural issues and theological issues

00:00:40.240 that I think this case speaks to. Before we get into all of that, I do want to just say

00:00:47.640 that I am so sad and just heartbroken. It's gut-wrenching to look at the images and the

00:00:55.580 video of the devastation in Kentucky and in what's called the Mid-South. I cannot imagine

00:01:03.420 the pain that families are going through. I mean, definitely the pain of families who have

00:01:10.220 physically lost not just their items, not just their possessions and their home, but also

00:01:16.140 family members, friends. I mean, this is going to devastate communities for years to come.

00:01:23.720 It is going to be so difficult to rebuild, not just physically, not just buildings, but also

00:01:30.980 emotionally, financially for people. It's hard to even quantify the loss that is being experienced

00:01:38.840 right now. But in the midst of the rubble, in the midst of the decay and the devastation,

00:01:47.940 the church is showing up. There are Christians who are expending their time, their resources,

00:01:55.920 their energy to ensure that people are cared for, to give people food, to give people shelter,

00:02:02.340 to give people the resources that they need. And that is what the church does. Yes, we pray. Yes,

00:02:09.460 we share the gospel. Yes, we love in the sense that we show people affection by giving them

00:02:15.360 a hug and saying a kind word to them. But we also show up. We love through our actions. We are the

00:02:23.700 hands and feet of Christ because we move forward with our feet, running into the chaos, running in

00:02:30.120 to the destruction, running into the fire, not away from it. And we use our hands to put out fires,

00:02:37.140 to rebuild, to help, to hold, to do what Christians have always done for all of Christian history.

00:02:48.700 This is what the church does best. We run into the chaos and the confusion and the destruction.

00:02:57.280 We rebuild. We bring peace. We bring clarity. And so as I am praying for everyone who lost someone,

00:03:06.960 my gosh, there's just so much, there's so much sadness, guys. Like there's so much tragedy. There's so much

00:03:14.700 corruption. And while this isn't a moral evil, there is still an evil and a sadness to,

00:03:25.980 there's still an evil to, I think, be sad about here in the sense that this world is under

00:03:34.360 under the curse of sin. And we are awaiting its restoration. We are awaiting the second coming

00:03:45.880 of Christ when he is going to make all things new and he is going to rule in perfect peace. And we not

00:03:50.280 only won't have any tornadoes or any hurricanes or any natural disasters, but we also won't have

00:03:57.260 any corruption. We won't have any wickedness. We won't have any lying or manipulation or partisanship

00:04:02.720 or any of the things that literally and figuratively tear us apart today. So there's something to mourn

00:04:10.040 there. There is that moral aspect of it, theological aspect of it, in the sense that sin causes,

00:04:19.640 in the grander sense, sin causes all destruction that we see and all decay that we see in the world.

00:04:26.740 But thankfully, we have hope in Christ that he is going to make all things new and he is going to

00:04:32.500 restore and reconcile all things to himself. And so that's one thing that we have to look forward to.

00:04:39.380 But as I said, in the meantime, Christians are to run into the flames, run into the destruction and 0.71

00:04:47.220 help to rebuild and to restore. And there are several organizations that are doing that.

00:04:53.420 There are local churches that you can donate to. There are Samaritan's Purse. There is Convoy of

00:05:01.520 Hope. And I have shared several links on my Instagram and my Instagram stories. And so I

00:05:07.520 encourage you to go to my Instagram stories and to look at some of those. I'll save them to a highlight

00:05:12.460 so they'll last longer than 24 hours. And so I encourage you to go look at that. And if there's

00:05:18.660 nothing monetarily that you can do, then I do encourage you to pray the prayer of a righteous

00:05:24.580 person, which is everyone who is in Christ, has great power. And already we see those prayers being

00:05:30.420 answered and manifested through the work of the church and through the work of people who are

00:05:35.820 just loving their neighbor by showing up and providing. And they'll continue to do that.

00:05:42.000 And so in the midst of this tangible help that the church is bringing, we also pray that hearts are

00:05:46.420 changed, that the gospel goes out and takes root. When it looks like God is doing one thing,

00:05:51.340 he's doing a million things. And God's work doesn't always make headlines, but there are a million

00:05:56.460 little glorifying things that are happening behind the scenes. People are being loved. Hearts are being

00:06:03.460 changed. Souls are being won. Things are being restored and redeemed and reconciled. God is in the

00:06:10.800 business of doing that. And he doesn't need a journalist to report on it in order for him to

00:06:16.100 get the glory. God will get the glory. He will even get the glory in this. We know Romans 8, 28,

00:06:21.620 God works all things according to the good of those who love him, even when we don't get it,

00:06:26.540 even when everything looks exclusively bad. He is working and he is doing good things. If you are in

00:06:33.320 the area, what I've been told is that local churches, local organizations need hands-on

00:06:40.080 volunteers. They need people passing out the water bottles and the food and the supplies and all of

00:06:44.420 that. I don't have, as I'm recording this on Monday morning, all of the information for which

00:06:50.740 organizations are seeking help or how exactly to do that. My guess would be if you could connect to

00:06:55.740 someone in the area, they could probably get you the information to be able to do that.

00:06:59.660 If you are in Kentucky or somewhere close to these areas, then I would encourage you to,

00:07:05.160 if you can, show up and help. This is, yes, what Christians do, but Americans in general are really

00:07:12.200 good at this. Whenever disaster strikes, you see people driving, for example, from Dallas to Houston,

00:07:20.160 or from Baton Rouge to Houston, or from Texas to Louisiana, wherever it is, it seems like Americans

00:07:31.100 are so eager and ready to give their time and their energy to those who need help. I think that's really

00:07:38.140 unique about the American experience and the American character, even in the midst of all of the bad that

00:07:45.040 goes on here. Even in the midst of all of the corruption, Americans are really good, at least 1.00

00:07:51.300 not necessarily the governments, but the constituents, the people are really good at taking care of their

00:07:56.160 own. So let's lean into that even more. This won't be the last time that disaster strikes,

00:08:01.180 unfortunately, but we can do what we can to try to help those who have been affected by it today.

00:08:06.940 All right. I just wanted to give some comments there and some encouragement there. Now we're

00:08:14.560 going to talk about this Josh Duggar case. So Josh Duggar bore the brunt of justice last week as he was

00:08:23.620 found guilty for possessing child sex abuse material. Duggar, if you don't know, is the oldest child of

00:08:31.120 Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. This starts at the long-running TLC show, 19 Kids and Counting. I think

00:08:36.000 there was a subsequent show called Counting On. I don't know if he was in that show or not.

00:08:40.960 Duggar, Josh Duggar and his wife, Anna, have seven children. Anna just welcomed their seventh child.

00:08:47.540 This is not the first time that Josh Duggar has been in trouble. According to People Magazine,

00:08:51.740 quote, in May 2015, a 2006 police report surfaced and revealed that he had been investigated as a teen

00:08:58.260 for inappropriately touching five underage girls. Two of his sisters subsequently stepped forward as two

00:09:04.580 of the victims. Josh publicly apologized for his, quote, wrongdoing. And this is also,

00:09:09.920 according to People Magazine, quote, a few months after apologizing for his wrongdoing in the child

00:09:15.040 molestation scandal, Duggar has confessed to cheating on his wife, Anna, developing an internet

00:09:19.780 pornography addiction, and signing up for two paid subscriptions to Ashley Madison. Ashley Madison, 0.99

00:09:25.860 People Magazine says, is an infidelity site, which prides itself with the motto,

00:09:30.400 life is short, have an affair. Oh my gosh, that is demonic. Here is part of Duggar's statement that

00:09:39.220 he released at the time in 2015, quote, I've been the biggest hypocrite ever while espousing faith 0.98

00:09:44.040 and family values. I've secretly, over the last several years, been doing pornography on the 0.86

00:09:47.820 internet, and this became a secret addiction, and I became unfaithful to my wife. The last few years,

00:09:53.240 while publicly stating I was fighting against immorality in our country, I was hiding my own

00:09:57.180 personal failings. Josh Duggar says, as I am learning the hard way, we have the freedom to

00:10:02.940 choose our actions, but we do not get to choose our consequences. I deeply regret all the hurt I have

00:10:08.180 caused. So many, by being such a bad example, says Duggar, I humbly ask for your forgiveness.

00:10:15.460 Please pray for my precious wife, Anna, and our family during this time. But obviously, there was more

00:10:21.560 going on there, because in May of 2019, child sex abuse material, and that is the correct phraseology 0.62

00:10:28.920 rather than child pornography, because all sex with a minor is sex abuse because a child cannot 0.53

00:10:35.420 consent. So there was child sex abuse material that was found on a computer at a car dealership

00:10:40.860 that Duggar owned, and this is according to Fox News, quote, federal authorities said they began

00:10:45.800 investigating after a Little Rock police detective. Oh, let me let me just say, and you guys probably

00:10:50.740 already know, that this is going to be disturbing. Some of the things, we're not going to get into any

00:10:55.980 graphic depictions, obviously, of what was looked at, because we don't know, actually. I mean, maybe

00:11:03.580 some people know more details, but I didn't go looking for all the details, and I don't think we need to

00:11:10.000 know everything that he is guilty of. But still, we're talking about very sensitive and sad and disgusting

00:11:18.520 subjects here. And so just FYI, I'm letting you know, as you could probably tell when you heard

00:11:24.880 that we were talking about this, you probably don't want to listen to this episode with kids in the

00:11:28.620 car. So again, according to Fox News, they began investigating after a Little Rock police detective

00:11:36.760 found child, they say child porn files, were being shared by a computer traced to Duggar. A federal agent

00:11:42.900 testified in May that images depicting the sexual abuse of children, including toddlers, were downloaded in

00:11:47.860 2019 onto a computer at a car dealership Duggar owned. The defense had argued that someone else

00:11:53.120 downloaded or placed the child pornography onto the computer at Duggar's workplace, noting that no child

00:11:59.220 pornography was found on Duggar's phone or laptop, but the jury was not swayed. The jury found him guilty

00:12:05.620 on charges of possessing and receiving the child sex abuse material. The sentencing will happen in about

00:12:12.320 four months. According to the judge, he faces up to 20 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines after

00:12:20.280 his conviction. Okay, so first of all, right off the bat, 20 years, in my amateur opinion, ain't nearly

00:12:31.220 enough for this. He apparently looked at child sexual abuse of toddlers. Okay, we're talking about two to

00:12:40.000 three-year-olds being raped. 20 years for that? Now, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a judge. I wasn't part of

00:12:46.940 the jury. I'm just saying that 20 years seems light for helping to create demand for the kind of material

00:12:53.380 babies were raped to produce. And yes, I believe people who produce child sex abuse material should 0.67

00:13:01.080 get the death penalty. No question. There are very few, very, very few crimes I think solicit the death 0.99

00:13:08.280 penalty. Very few. But the production and distribution of the sexual abuse of children?

00:13:15.960 Yes. Now, may someone share the gospel with the person who does that and may God change that

00:13:21.240 person's heart? Absolutely. Even the most grotesque abuser alive, God can save and change 100%. But that

00:13:29.880 does not negate the need for justice here on earth. You produce and distribute child sex abuse depictions,

00:13:35.840 justice should be swift and final. I guarantee you, if we issued the death penalty swiftly and consistently 0.73

00:13:42.260 for child pornographers and we upped the penalty even more for those who view the material, there'd be a big

00:13:48.020 change. We cannot even fathom and should not even attempt to fathom the darkness and depravity present and

00:13:56.780 the kinds of content Josh Duggar and others like him consumed. The physical and emotional and spiritual

00:14:04.640 pain caused to helpless, innocent children for moments of fleeting, perverted pleasure? It's hard to think of

00:14:12.520 anything more satanic. A millstone tied around someone's neck thrown into the sea would be a better 0.91

00:14:19.940 consequence than what those people who do not repent of their sin will endure one day. And I know that

00:14:26.940 what I'm about to say is kind of an aside, but, and kind of what I just said is a little bit of an aside

00:14:32.880 and we'll get back to, we'll get back to the main point and talk more about this case. But I just want

00:14:40.280 to take a moment to say and to remind you that children are the most marginalized, vulnerable group

00:14:47.320 in the world. And our society hates them. Our society hates children. And I've seen that even

00:14:53.600 more so in the past couple of years, whether it's sexual objectification, physical abuse, which has

00:14:59.520 increased over the past couple of years, thanks to unfortunately kids who were, you know, locked out

00:15:07.520 of their school, forced into their home, a lot of times with the people who were already abusing them.

00:15:12.480 So that abuse just increased the abortion, the sick and unrelenting desire to indoctrinate

00:15:21.340 kids with all kinds of confusion about their identity, the reproduction industry coupled with

00:15:26.040 the redefining of the family, which equals babies and wombs becoming commodities, the COVID policies 1.00

00:15:32.120 that have hurt them developmentally, socially, emotionally, and physically without providing

00:15:36.000 them with any health benefits. The interests and the wellbeing of children are routinely disregarded

00:15:41.320 and denied. Now, I'm not saying that all of these things that I just listed are on the

00:15:45.940 same level by any means. I know some people are going to say that I said that. That's not

00:15:50.440 what I said. That's not what I'm saying. I am giving you a range of examples that show

00:15:55.080 how disregarded the interests and the wellbeing of children are. And as another aside, I do worry

00:16:02.200 about this attitude towards children and this disinterest towards the interests and the needs

00:16:10.020 of children getting worse as our birth rate declines as it is doing in the West. As more

00:16:15.560 and more young people say they don't want kids. You don't have to be a parent to be compassionate

00:16:19.520 towards children. You don't. I know a lot of people who are not parents who are so compassionate

00:16:23.340 towards children. But for a lot of people, becoming a parent is what activates empathy for children.

00:16:29.760 And even if you are already compassionate toward their plight, it is quadrupled, at least, when you

00:16:35.760 have kids of your own. Because in every hurting child, you see your own child. And your heartache

00:16:40.960 deepens and you're moved to advocate even more on their behalf. Matthew 19, 13 through 14.

00:16:47.520 Then children were brought to him, to Jesus, that he might lay his hands on them and pray.

00:16:52.180 The disciples rebuke to the people. But Jesus said, let the little children come to me and do not

00:16:57.940 hinder them for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven. So it is no surprise that a world that hates God

00:17:05.300 hates the children that he created and welcomed. Conversely, the church should be a refuge,

00:17:12.460 a safe haven, a wall of protection for the children God created and welcomes. And too often,

00:17:18.200 that is not the case. Too often, the church is where crimes against children are covered up,

00:17:26.500 are excused, are handled internally, are blamed on the victim. The Bible is sometimes used and abused

00:17:33.580 to justify the abuse of women and children in the church. Josh Duggar claimed, and maybe still claims,

00:17:40.740 I don't know, to be a Christian. He worked for the Family Research Council for Crying Out Loud,

00:17:45.540 which, by the way, is a great Christian organization. But he put up a front for them

00:17:49.860 and everyone else to look like a good guy when apparently there was a lot going on

00:17:54.560 behind the scenes in the deep crevices of his heart and mind. He was talking about the importance

00:17:59.520 of heterosexual marriage when he himself was engaging in the abomination of an affair. He was

00:18:04.760 touting family values and encouraging legislation based on Christian principles to the Republican

00:18:09.180 Party while doing things that would destroy his family, destroy his Christian witness. He was acting 0.98

00:18:16.360 as a husband and a dad, apparently still procreating with his wife while consuming the sexual abuse of 0.99

00:18:22.840 children. And I suggest that that is worse, even worse, than a non-Christian doing the same things, 1.00

00:18:30.260 committing the same heinous crimes. Why? Because of the hypocrisy. The one thing we see Jesus call out

00:18:38.340 over and over again, in addition to lots of other sins, but one thing that we see him so consistently

00:18:42.680 call out, and you can just see and read the hatred of this in his words, the thing that he hates,

00:18:51.220 is looking good and holy on the outside while rotting with sin and depravity on the inside.

00:18:58.440 And because of what that hypocrisy says to a non-believing world, I think in one sense,

00:19:08.240 what Josh Duggar did while claiming to represent Christian values is worse than someone who doesn't

00:19:14.760 claim to represent Christian values doing the same thing. So I don't blame people for saying that he is a

00:19:20.180 hypocrite for being anti-LGBTQ and promoting family traditional values while having affairs and 0.99

00:19:27.220 watching child sex abuse material. That is hypocritical. That is disgusting. That makes you 1.00

00:19:32.740 a whitewashed tomb. You're giving one set of rules to others, acting like you are abiding by them when

00:19:39.140 you're not actually abiding by God's law yourself. And honestly, Josh was doing much more harm to people

00:19:46.920 by watching child sex abuse than some of the people that his work criticized. Now, sin is sin,

00:19:55.520 yes, and harm is harm. But the hypocrisy, like I said, just adds another layer. Christians are called 0.96

00:20:02.860 to a different standard, a holy standard. And we fall short, yes, but to point fingers in one direction

00:20:10.200 toward another person's sin, while behind you is a whole host of hidden sin, the kind that actively,

00:20:16.680 physically, sexually harms innocent children, that is just reprehensible beyond words. Now,

00:20:24.420 he's not beyond God's grace and forgiveness and redemption. All of us, as Ephesians 2 says,

00:20:32.400 are dead in sin. It is only by grace through faith that we are made alive in Christ. So that is still

00:20:37.940 possible for Josh Duggar as it is possible for every murder, for every thief, for every abuser,

00:20:45.120 for every kind of sinner in the world. And so as we condemn the actions of Josh Duggar, which are

00:20:52.480 so disgusting and which God himself condemns, we all realize that we are sinners in need of salvation,

00:21:01.320 in need of grace as well. Our sin doesn't look the same. It's not the same. And the imminent

00:21:08.160 consequences are not the same. But we realize that we are all need of grace and mercy and forgiveness.

00:21:16.620 But even in saying that, even in realizing that we are all sinners, that does not negate our

00:21:21.880 responsibility to call an atrocity and an abomination. What is an atrocity and an abomination?

00:21:30.800 Which is what Josh Duggar's actions and lifestyle was slash is. I don't know what he's up to now

00:21:37.200 besides being in jail. It's devastating. This whole thing is devastating. It's so sad. My heart breaks

00:21:43.520 for the victims, first and foremost. I'm also sad for his kids, who I know probably don't have the

00:21:49.000 capacity, at least the younger kids, don't have the capacity to understand what's going on. They're

00:21:52.840 not going to have a dad around. And I know that it's obviously good for Josh to be away from them.

00:21:57.100 Totally in agreement on that. They are still going to be sad that they don't have their father. They

00:22:02.160 don't understand, I'm sure, what he is guilty of. That hurts me for them. That really hurts me for

00:22:10.040 them. I mean, there's going to be a lot of trauma that's dealt with here. I'm sad for his wife,

00:22:13.720 who shockingly seems to be standing by him. She was seen holding his hand, walking into the courtroom.

00:22:20.560 I'm sad that she's been through all this and will now be raising kids on her own. I'm sad for his

00:22:25.620 siblings and for his parents. I know people want to throw all of them under the bus too. And

00:22:30.000 I don't know very much about the Duggar parents and how they handled all of this. But at the end of

00:22:37.400 the day, Josh Duggar is an adult who made his own decisions. A few siblings have released a

00:22:43.940 statement, including Ginger Vuolo and her husband, Jeremy, who, by the way, are lovely people

00:22:48.980 from everything that I know. They put out really good statements, thanking God for justice, expressing

00:22:55.940 sympathy for the victims. I'm sure they're heartbroken and disgusted. And it's just not fair

00:23:01.440 to indict the whole family because of the choices of one grown man. Now, there are people online not

00:23:08.840 just pointing out the hypocrisy, which is fair, but also trying to claim that this is symptomatic of

00:23:15.380 Christianity in the Republican Party. They are tweeting out pictures of Josh with Republican

00:23:20.900 politicians. They're saying this is because of conservative theology within Christianity or purity

00:23:26.580 culture. They're arguing that conservative evangelicalism and Republican values are

00:23:31.300 what encourages and enables this kind of behavior, that it's toxic theology that makes this kind of

00:23:37.940 stuff acceptable in the Duggar circles. Now, before I push back on that, I will say I don't know very

00:23:44.820 much about the Duggar family theology. I know apparently it's some kind of fundamentalist theology, but even

00:23:52.620 that word has been so misused and has a million different meanings and possibilities depending on who you're

00:23:58.780 talking to. The women were raised not to wear pants. The parents decided early on not to use 0.99

00:24:04.920 contraception, but there are a lot of people in a lot of different denominations that believe in the

00:24:08.900 sinfulness of contraception, but well, specifically hormonal birth control, but really any kind of

00:24:14.340 contraception. They obviously are very traditional. They're very conservative, certainly as far as gender

00:24:20.360 roles go. There are some reports that say they're a part of some non-denominational

00:24:26.300 religious organization, which with some seemingly, and again, this is based on reports of people who

00:24:33.000 follow them much more closely than I do. Apparently, this organization has some cultish aspects to it,

00:24:41.520 but here's the deal. With the Duggars, there's so much gossip about them online. There are so many

00:24:48.040 conspiracy theories and salacious articles and assumptions about their private lives and what

00:24:52.020 they believe. And the truth is, I don't know. I'm sure that now that many of them are adults, they and their

00:24:58.580 families have their own Christian beliefs and probably don't share the same theology as their

00:25:04.880 parents. Who knows? So I can't say that there was nothing in Josh's upbringing or in what he was taught that

00:25:11.960 contributed to his actions. I don't know. But the truth is, none of us know. You really, you don't know. So you

00:25:18.460 really can't say either way because none of us know everything that goes on in people's private

00:25:22.520 lives. So in order to make the case that it's definitely conservatism and evangelicalism and

00:25:27.640 purity culture in the Republican Party that caused this, you'd probably need to be able to make the 0.75

00:25:32.320 same accusations against the rest of the siblings too, right? Like, can't you just simply say there are

00:25:38.740 parts of a person's theology or background or belief system that you disagree with and you even find

00:25:43.200 toxic without saying that it is the exclusive or even primary reason someone watched child sex abuse

00:25:49.960 material? And come on. Like, we know this. We know that there are lots of non-Christian, non-conservative, 0.80

00:25:58.680 non-so-called fundamentalist, non-Republicans who are sick perverts and abusers. We know that. 1.00

00:26:04.660 All the guys in the CIA found guilty of watching child sex abuse material and then simply

00:26:09.480 let off that we talked about last week that BuzzFeed reported on. You think these guys were

00:26:14.420 some fundamentalist Baptists? Or what about Chris Cuomo's producer? This news just came out at CNN.

00:26:21.140 John Griffin, who was just arrested for grooming and sexually abusing little girls, at least one girl

00:26:26.000 as young as nine. A de Blasio employee a few years ago was arrested for possessing child sex abuse

00:26:31.260 material. You think Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell were big into Southern Baptist purity culture?

00:26:38.140 Remember back in March when the judge in Milwaukee, his name was Brett Blom, he headed up Drag Queen 0.98

00:26:46.460 Story Hour in his area and he was arrested for child pornography or child sex abuse material.

00:26:54.080 So don't even get me started. Don't even get me started on the fact that a lot of progressives

00:26:59.620 think it's normal for a grown man in fishnet tights and fake boobs to dance and read stories to little

00:27:05.660 kids in libraries. Or the child drag queen shows where grown men are throwing dollars at boys.

00:27:12.780 Or how about the story that I don't even think we ever talked about? This person named Alan Walker

00:27:17.340 at Old Dominion University, he argued for, he, she, I don't know, argued for the destigmatization of,

00:27:24.040 quote, minor attracted people. Or the Navy ship that was named after Harvey Milk, who so many on the

00:27:30.680 left idolize. And yet he preyed upon and raped a 16 year old boy when he was a grown man. Or the 0.96

00:27:38.720 thoroughly documented roving gangs of male Afghan immigrants throughout Europe attacking and raping 1.00

00:27:43.800 young girls. The list goes on and on of people not associated with conservatism or Christianity in 0.77

00:27:49.400 any way who are child predators and who aid in abet predation. So this idea that this is typical for the

00:27:55.800 right or for conservative Christians and that this is indicative in a broad sense of the toxicity of

00:28:02.260 conservatism politically or theologically, it doesn't hold up. Again, you could argue if you have

00:28:07.820 the facts to back it up that Josh's education and upbringing contributed to this in some way.

00:28:12.520 You could list specific beliefs that his denomination holds that you think encouraged this.

00:28:17.340 But does the rest of the family have this same problem? And is it not a problem in other belief

00:28:22.280 systems? The answer to the first, I believe, is no. And the answer to the second, I know, is no.

00:28:29.140 So we're going to have to dig a little deeper there. I'd also posit that if your first reaction

00:28:35.580 to the story is to find a way to blame Republicans, then you don't actually care about children.

00:28:40.560 You care about the left versus right battle. That's it. And that means you've got something very dark in

00:28:46.200 your heart that just needs a flashlight so you can examine it and clear out whatever decay

00:28:49.860 is rotting there. So here's the deal. God and his standards are the solution to the sin talked

00:29:01.080 about here and all sin, not the cause. God creating people in his image, as Genesis 1 tells us,

00:29:08.060 demanding that we love and care for those made in his image, giving us guidelines for how we should

00:29:13.140 treat one another and ourselves with respect as image bearers, giving us good parameters for sex

00:29:19.580 within a right definition of marriage and family. That, when abided by, leads to joy,

00:29:25.920 leads to fulfillment, leads to safety, leads to protection for women and children.

00:29:30.660 In Leviticus 20, we read that people in Israel and some of the sojourners with them had sacrificed

00:29:35.980 their children to a false god, an idol, Melech. And their punishment was the death penalty by stoning. 0.99

00:29:44.640 God abhorred their actions just as he abhors child sacrifice today, child abuse today.

00:29:50.420 He hates the trampling upon the vulnerable. We see that manifested so beautifully in the life of Jesus,

00:29:55.920 who specifically, specially attends to women and children in a way that was not societally normal

00:30:01.900 and condemns those who extort the weak and the powerless. God's commands for us in Scripture

00:30:09.020 are based on his holiness, his hatred for sin, and his love for us. He wants good things for us.

00:30:15.640 His boundaries and rules and precepts are good for people. I know you've got a lot of people saying

00:30:20.580 that the boundaries that are put forth by Christianity, by people who actually believe

00:30:26.940 that the word of God is authoritative, that those are the problems, that if we just liberate

00:30:32.380 ourselves from all sexual ethics and boundaries and people just do what they want to do at all

00:30:38.740 times, then somehow that's going to lead to better outcomes and more protection and safety for

00:30:43.460 children. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. His sexual ethic, his definition of right sex in

00:30:50.880 marriage is good. His definition of morality, of right and wrong is good. It's beneficial for us.

00:30:56.460 It's from God's definitions of all of these things that we have the basis for anything actually

00:31:03.040 good in society today. The concept of human rights being the most fundamental that would not exist

00:31:11.080 without Christianity in Scripture. The caring for children and the vulnerable would not exist so 1.00

00:31:18.160 prevalently in the West, at least as it has in history, without the foundation of Christianity 0.98

00:31:24.140 and Scripture. That doesn't mean that the West has always gotten it right or any country has always

00:31:28.960 gotten it right or the people within the church have always gotten it right, obviously, as we already

00:31:32.680 noted, because people are fallible. People are sinful. Institutions, countries, governments are made up of

00:31:38.060 fallible and sinful people. And so they are going to make mistakes on an individual and a systemic

00:31:45.780 level possibly. But anything good that has been accomplished, any good value that we have held

00:31:53.760 as a society has been because of Christianity, because of the God of the Bible. We want a society

00:32:00.280 that protects the vulnerable and honors sex and marriage in a healthy way. We will not get that 0.98

00:32:05.760 by running from the God who created those things. There's this really interesting article that I always

00:32:11.840 think about. It came out a few years ago, 2019. Yes, that was a few years ago, which is crazy,

00:32:17.200 by a man named Ralph Allen Smith called What Jeffrey Epstein Got Right. Sounds like a bit of a

00:32:26.460 scandalous title. But what he talks about is really interesting. And I'm just going to read you some of

00:32:30.800 that article. I wish I could read you the whole thing. I'll link it in the description to this episode.

00:32:34.440 But he says a lot of interesting stuff. And so I want to read you at least the most interesting

00:32:41.420 parts of it. So he said, quote, Jeffrey Epstein called our bluff. Writing in the New York Times,

00:32:45.960 James Stewart reports Epstein's opinion that criminalizing sex with teenage girls was a

00:32:49.900 cultural aberration and that at times in history, it was perfectly acceptable. Epstein was too 0.99

00:32:54.860 generous. What we now condemn as statutory rape didn't just occur at times in history. The unpleasant

00:32:59.600 truth is that historically speaking, using children, even relatively young children, as objects for men's

00:33:04.380 sexual satisfaction has been the rule, not the exception. What we call child abuse is a recent

00:33:09.860 category. It is not at all part of the way ancient peoples thought or acted. The ancient cradles of

00:33:15.900 civilization, Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China, did not have lost because the whole concept was simply

00:33:21.520 not part of who they were or what they believed. That's still the case in modern Muslim countries 1.00

00:33:26.520 that allow slavery. Some thought of as abuse or perverted. It was just what some men, actually very, 0.57

00:33:32.480 very many men did. So what happened to change all of this? Why is modern Western culture sensitive to

00:33:38.200 this matter? What made our modern postmodern world different? That is the question, but no one is

00:33:43.760 asking it. Why not? Because the answer is too embarrassing to admit. One thing and only one

00:33:50.040 thing happened to provoke a cultural revolution in one part of the world, though its influence has

00:33:54.540 reached others. I suspect anyone reading this essay will know very well what this revolution was.

00:33:59.860 Christianity and only Christianity transformed the way people viewed human sexual relationships by

00:34:05.740 universalizing the standards of the Old and New Testaments. The revolution was a slow process,

00:34:11.720 and the changes it brought varied from place to place. Often, the revolution was only in the

00:34:18.860 thinking of the Christian elite, like Augustine, whereas other sorts of elite gave lip service to

00:34:25.620 the ideas of the revolution, but in practice followed the good old ways. Satisfaction of sexual lust with

00:34:30.600 little discrimination about time, place, or means. The history of Europe includes too many examples to even

00:34:34.860 begin to offer a short list, but there was a real, even if gradual, change in thinking and social life.

00:34:39.820 Men in Europe were educated by the Christian church of every denomination to understand sex

00:34:44.040 as a gift of God intended for married man and woman. Within that sacred bond, it was, or should be,

00:34:49.560 holy, good, and beautiful. Outside of that sacred bond, it was forbidden. Consider the alternatives.

00:34:54.840 Was there any doctrine or practice in ancient Hinduism, a conglomeration of religious ideas and practices,

00:35:00.400 not a unified religion, that upheld the dignity of women and protected young women from abuse?

00:35:05.860 Just to ask the question is to answer it. The same is true for Buddhism. In Buddhism,

00:35:11.040 or in Theravada Buddhism, the oldest form of Buddhism, a woman has to be reborn as a man even

00:35:17.000 to have a chance at nirvana. Monogamy is not part of the religion or customs of the Buddhist lands.

00:35:22.760 Islam, of course, is the clearest example of all. According to Muslim sources, Muhammad

00:35:26.820 five years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine. At the time, child marriage was common

00:35:31.680 in the Arabic world, and what Muhammad did would not have been regarded as a prophet, became a

00:35:37.480 standard of righteousness for all time. Apparently, following the prophet's example, the Ayatollah 0.98

00:35:41.500 Khomeini is said to have married a 10-year-old girl. Allow what the modern West would call child 0.95

00:35:47.720 marriage. In none of those countries would the age of Epstein's young women be a problem. In fact,

00:35:52.200 in some Muslim countries, he could have married and divorced young women over and over without

00:35:56.620 legal problems. Ibn Saud, I don't know how to pronounce his name, the founder of Saudi Arabia

00:36:02.360 had as many as 300 wives, but as a good Muslim, never had more than four at a time. Only Christianity 1.00

00:36:07.840 required strict monogamy, clarifying the standard already implicit in Judaism. It is to the church's 0.98

00:36:13.200 shame that it has not been practiced as it should be. Abuses in Christian lands have been horrible as 1.00

00:36:19.020 well. But the Christian standard in Holy Scripture is clear. One man marries one woman until death

00:36:24.760 parts them. There is no specific requirement in the Bible about the age of marriage. However,

00:36:29.740 since childbearing is one purpose of marriage, it seems to be presupposed that the young woman to be

00:36:35.060 married should be of childbearing age. Strict monogamy and the dignity that the Bible as a whole, 0.98

00:36:40.420 and especially Jesus himself, accords to women, sets Christianity apart. In many ways, Epstein is

00:36:47.060 typical of the sexually liberated man of the 1960s. Sexual promiscuity is considered normal and

00:36:55.100 acceptable. Post-enlightenment, post-modern men, no history and comparative religion is on their side 0.51

00:37:00.280 when it comes to having sex with young boys or girls, not to mention animals. He talks about 0.88

00:37:06.700 Darwinism. If we are all just material objects, if we're all nothing more than grown clumps of cells,

00:37:13.840 then why can't a man or a woman simply follow his animal craving for sexual fulfillment? What could

00:37:20.620 possibly be the crime? Who could object to sex with young girls or boys, including small children?

00:37:26.340 He asks if all we are doing is following our animalistic urges that were put upon us by evolution.

00:37:35.100 He says,

00:37:35.720 It is only in biblical monogamy that one can find a standard that protects women and children from

00:37:40.560 predators. It is only if law requires and social custom adheres to Christian monogamy can one have

00:37:47.440 a society that upholds the dignity of men and women created as God's image and likeness. We've

00:37:52.900 jettisoned this heritage. Now everything goes. And in that setting, Epstein is not an aberration. He is

00:37:57.840 a symptom. Epstein was right. Our semi-Christian sexual standards are a historical aberration. He called

00:38:03.680 our bluff and forces us to make a choice. Either we embrace Christian standards or we create a world 0.98

00:38:08.700 of Epsteins, a world where Jeffrey Epstein looks a little less monstrous because we'll all have become

00:38:15.120 monsters. So the gospel is the answer. The gospel is the answer for people who profess to be Christians 1.00

00:38:23.060 but don't actually adhere to God's sexual ethics like Josh Duggar. The gospel is the answer for people

00:38:29.960 like Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. For every child abuser in existence, the gospel is the answer

00:38:34.980 both for forgiveness and the way forward. God's standards are the answer. If you look at Ephesians 5, which of

00:38:42.040 course, feminists and progressives throw out because it is seen as so patriarchal, the command that husbands 1.00

00:38:48.720 are to love their wives and wives are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord. The reality is, is that 0.54

00:38:54.440 structure, that command was radical at the time, not because it commanded husbands to, or not because it 0.99

00:39:01.740 commanded wives to submit to their husbands, but because it commanded husbands to love and to care for their

00:39:08.180 wives to the point of death, to the point of complete self-sacrifice. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ

00:39:13.980 loves the church and gave himself up for her. That was the standard that God called men to, that society at the time

00:39:20.560 was not calling men to. There was no protection for a woman, even within marriage, but God created

00:39:26.180 marriage, monogamous marriage between a man and a woman. God created the family for the protection

00:39:31.040 of women and children. God's ways always protect the most vulnerable. This is still God's world. He is

00:39:38.300 still the authority. He is still the answer for all of the problems that we face. Like I said, he and his

00:39:46.240 standards are the answer for those who profess to know him and yet act differently. His ways, his gospel

00:39:52.760 is the answer for those who don't know him and are committing some of the same sins and the same

00:39:59.460 crimes that we talked about today. We are not going to get good things by running away from God's

00:40:05.780 standards. We are only going to get a world that protects the most vulnerable by adhering to God's

00:40:13.360 standards for sex, for marriage, for self-respect, for respecting other people, for treating other

00:40:18.880 people with respect and with love. God and his standards are the answer. All right. So we're

00:40:26.860 talking about lots of different things this week. This is the last week that we are going to be in

00:40:31.360 studio. Starting next week, we will have pre-recorded episodes playing out. Next week will be some fun

00:40:38.400 Christmas episodes. I think I'll do a theology episode for next Thursday that is hopefully

00:40:43.240 encouraging to you right before Christmas. And then the next week, I'm having two awesome

00:40:48.500 conversations. Dr. Brett Weinstein, you probably know him. He is a scientist. He has been talking a

00:40:55.320 lot about how the government has totally fumbled the ball when it comes to their response to COVID.

00:41:00.940 He's been talking a lot about the vaccines and alternative treatments to COVID. But we're also going to

00:41:06.280 talk about, you know, he's a liberal. And we're also going to talk about how the left has become

00:41:11.960 so illiberal and the consequences that he's faced because of that. And we're also going to talk to

00:41:17.520 Victor Davis Hanson, who was one of the most brilliant people ever. And we're going to talk

00:41:22.420 about the state of the country and what the solutions might be for all of the problems that

00:41:27.660 we're facing. And so you can look forward to those four episodes coming out over the next couple of

00:41:32.560 weeks. Also, one of the episodes that we're doing next week will include some voicemails from you

00:41:37.400 guys that I asked for last week. So I asked you guys to send me your unpopular Christmas opinion.

00:41:46.880 So what is it? Like, what does everyone love about Christmas that you just think is weird,

00:41:51.360 that you don't like, that you don't enjoy? I want to hear it. I'll share some of my opinions too.

00:41:55.840 Leave me your voicemail and we'll play a few of them. Won't be able to play all of them,

00:41:59.960 but just leave it. Keep it, keep it quick. Keep it punchy. 682-503-1369. That's 682-503-1369.

00:42:09.520 Would love to hear your voicemail. Also, if you love this podcast, please leave a five-star review.

00:42:15.260 That would mean so much to us on Apple Podcasts. Thank you guys so much for listening. We will be

00:42:21.180 back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - December 13, 2021

Ep 537 ｜ The Josh Duggar Case： Is Purity Culture to Blame？

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript