Ep 559 ｜ An Atheist's Take on Christianity & The Power of Truth ｜ Guest： James Lindsay
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Summary
Part two of my conversation with James Lindsay came out last Tuesday. If you have not listened to that, definitely go listen to it. We talk about the cultural moment that we re in and the long lineage, philosophical lineage that has led us to where we are, especially when it comes to race politics. It was a fascinating conversation, as it always is. But today I wanted to talk to him specifically about theology and our disagreements there. He identifies as an agnostic slash atheist, and I really wanted to know why isn t James a Christian? I mean, he seems to really understand Christian theology on a very profound level.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Monday. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. Better than organic chicken and Kraft beef. Shipped right to your front door. Go
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to goodranchers.com slash Allie and check it out. All right. Today is part two of my conversation
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with James Lindsay. Part one came out last Tuesday. If you have not listened to that,
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definitely go listen to it. We talk about the cultural moment that we're in and the long
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lineage, philosophical lineage that has led us to where we are, especially when it comes to race
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politics. It was a fascinating conversation as it always is with James Lindsay. But today I wanted
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to talk to him specifically about theology and our disagreements there. He identifies,
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I believe, as an agnostic slash atheist. You guys know I'm a Christian. And I really wanted to know
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why isn't James a Christian? I mean, he references Christianity and the Bible a lot. He seems to
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really understand Christian theology on a very profound level. And so I wanted to talk to him
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about why he's not a Christian and our differences there. And I think that you're really going to,
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enjoy this conversation. So without further ado, here is our friend once again, James Lindsay.
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Nobody's really read Marx. And the people who have, according to the Marxists that I've read in
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the past, or who've written in the past, say, 20 years, I don't think a lot of people understood Marx.
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So Marx had this very simple kind of construction of the world. You have this thing called the base,
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later in the structural framing, it got called the infrastructure. That's your productive
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workers. It's also where nature is. It's where all the stuff's happening. But all of your productive
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working class is the base. That's what actually builds society. Society's made out of that. And
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then you have all these people who do things like what we're doing. We're talking. We don't do real
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work. We talk. We write books. You know, we're lawyers. We mediate people's problems. We're priests
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or pastors, and we just shepherd people through spirituality that's their opiate of their masses or
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whatever. These aren't real jobs. They don't produce any real tangible stuff. So in a sense,
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Marxists see that as a grift. But what Marx called all of that is the superstructure of society. And
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that's where the real organization of society kind of gets its kind of basis. And everybody who's
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involved in the superstructure is also known as an ideologist. An ideology is this bunch of excuses
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the people who get to work in the superstructure give for why they get to be in the superstructure.
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Why they get to do this fake work that doesn't have to produce anything while somebody else has
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to toil with a hammer or a sickle to produce the base of society. And so they have these things
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called ideologies. And they convince themselves that their ideology is the real explanation for
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how the world works. And so they therefore are trapped into thinking, well, this is how it's
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supposed to be. I've earned my way here. I went to school longer. You know, I'm meritocracy. I did the
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right stuff. I sacrificed. I've worked my way up. And you could too if you wanted to. But what you
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have is that those two things are held in this relationship and tension with one another. And
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they're creating the structure of society that organizes how society works. And it therefore
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conditions how everybody thinks, depending on where you are positionally, as they would say in
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intersectionality, against that structure of power. Where are you relationally to being part of the
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either cultural or material production base? Where are you in terms of the ideology? And one of the
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features of the ideology is that you think that you don't have an ideology. That's the magic sauce of
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the ideology. You can't see it. But you are being conditioned by these structural forces that are
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ultimately what Marx called the social relations produced by the relationship between the infrastructure
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and superstructure. And this is a dialectical relationship. So that's what dialectical materialism
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is all about. So you are conditioned by that. That determines who you are. It determines your
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character. So with critical race theory, whiteness becomes the property. White supremacy becomes the
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structure that justifies the ideology, I should say, that justifies why some people get access to
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whiteness and why other people don't. And then systemic racism becomes the structure that shapes all of
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society, conditions everything. And so any answer or excuse that you give...
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You know, it reminds me not to interrupt you, but as you're talking, I'm thinking, I'm like,
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this sounds exactly like what people say when they talk about chemtrails.
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Seriously, like when they're talking about chemtrails and they're like, well, see, the chemtrails are like
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convincing people of different things. They're like playing with your mind. But I,
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I am the one person who has escaped the power of the chemtrails. And I am here to tell you about
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that. And if you deny that chemtrails have had an effect on your thinking, it's just because
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It's working. That's right. And I use the special soap or whatever that got them out of my hair.
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It's like, no, seriously though, it's, um, it is a huge conspiracy theory. Even in the book, I
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have to call it a conspiracy theory. Um, the whole thing is a giant conspiracy theory
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and that everybody's participating in. And the only people who are aware that this is even how
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it works, just like with the chemtrails are the people who have the awakened consciousness. In
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other words, the Marxists. And so they therefore get to appoint themselves the arbiter of how
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everything's going to go, how everybody's going to have to respond. And they're the only, if you
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disagree with them, you must not have understood correctly. So you don't have epistemic authority
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to challenge them, or you must be secretly a racist or it's because you're, it's because you're
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white and it goes back to almost like, almost like pathologizing whiteness that your white brain
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just can't understand. Because it's been conditioned by the structural reality of systemic racism
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so that it's just not possible. Even though, you know, we've had comedians, you know, breaking down
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the racial barrier by talking about white culture and doing, you know, Eddie Murphy or whatever,
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Bernie Mac, all these guys coming out doing their white person voice and making fun of white people
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culture. Like everybody's been making fun of this for a long time. It's what they're saying
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doesn't even make any sense. But they think they're the only ones who can actually see
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that this is how this really works in society. But they don't realize that they're actually
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It really is a cult. And culture is always downstream from cult. That's one thing that I think a lot
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of people don't understand. And I was actually reading about a critique of John Locke last night
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that, and a lot of what we're talking about reminds me of that, that Locke's legacy, I would
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say is even more pervasive than like the outright Marxist, this idea that you, that everyone,
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you know, starts equally. And it's all these systems, it's all these external things that
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are, you know, like tearing people down. And really, he extracts the human experience from
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human nature and all of these institutions that have created good societies. That's where
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we get Atlas shrugged and all of these things that I just don't necessarily agree with. But
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even conservatives kind of latch on to. And it's reminding me, it's reminding me of,
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of, of all of that, that Locke seemed to not understand that culture is downstream from cult.
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It's downstream from what you believe about God, what you believe about where people came
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from, what you believe about human nature, why humans do the things that we do, and the
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things that human beings actually naturally need not just to survive, but to thrive. In my
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opinion, leftism always gets that wrong. There are even some people, I would say on the libertarian
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right that tend to get that wrong. They just get human nature wrong. The left tends to think that
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when it comes to nature versus nurture, that we're all nurture, that we are all just completely
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malleable. And if the social engineers at the World Economic Forum, if they want people to live a
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certain way, we'll learn to adapt. And we'll just be happy, you know, owning nothing, eating bugs and
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things like that. But the fact of the matter is, is that we do have a human nature. Everyone belongs
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to a, I don't want to say a cult, but some kind of worldview, belief system, theology, and
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understanding these things and how our nature flows from that is actually really important in order to
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create a society in which people can function together.
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Yeah. Locke was really good on life, liberty, and property. Like, he really nailed it with those.
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And his explanations for why are just really sharp.
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Blank slate, however, really wrong. Really, really wrong. We are not blank slates.
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It's more like, and this is an image I've always wanted to have, like, to build so I could have it.
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But it's like, imagine, you know, a canvas that's like a blank slate. You can paint whatever you want
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on it, right? But imagine that the canvas is contoured to look, say, like a human face,
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right? So, you just have this canvas. It's got wood under it. So, it looks, it's shaped like
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a face, like a person. And if you paint that, you can only go, like, you can paint it however you
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want. But it still looks like a human face. And if you paint it just right so that, you know,
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you contoured makeup like I have on right now and look so good. If you contour it all out,
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you can create some illusions. But then you change angle and it's like you just have a weird brown
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lion on the side of your nose, right? And so, there's limits to how far the nurture argument
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goes. Now, with Marxism, they actually believe, they, of course, Marx deposes God. He replaces
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God with man, like, literally with man and himself. And he says that man is creating himself
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through the process of history. So, man becomes, as subject, also his own object. And so, for them,
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they actually believe that by creating the social relations, that the social relations
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then condition man back and create man. And so, anything that's a limit from that kind of
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super blank slate mentality, total nurture, is actually a social condition limiting the range
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of your subjectivity, which they believe is, yes, that is Marx. Like, if you read the economic
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and philosophic manuscript of 1844, he goes into that. He's very clear about it. Man is creating
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himself, and it's the limits on man's subjectivity are created by the social relations that are
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created in dominance and oppression. And dominance and oppression arise from property ownership. And
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that's, in fact, property ownership is characterized as the original sin that kicked us out of the
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Garden of Eden. I mean, it's very religious, but that's why they think that way, is so everybody
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is responsible to shape the social relations in a way that will, as Michel Foucault put it,
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expand the potentialities of being by expanding one's subjectivity. You always hear them talk
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about subjectivity, because they think if they expand the subjectivity, then you can create some
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broader sense of the object in the world, including yourself, and come to know yourself as creator,
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independent of God. And it's, why does it march hundreds of millions of people to death
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everywhere it's tried? That's why. Because it's a fundamentally anti-human mentality posing as
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humanism, to use Marx's word for it. You know, I didn't realize this when I was writing my book. It's
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a little pink book, and it doesn't look like it would, you know, contain an analysis of Marx, and
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that's because it doesn't. But I critique the, you know, the legacy, or not the legacy, but the product
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of that legacy, which is this idea that you see a lot in new age circles, that you see a lot in
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self-help, especially female self-help. So coming from places like Glennon Doyle, coming from places
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like Brene Brown, or Rachel Hollis, I don't expect you necessarily to be familiar with them, who
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certainly wouldn't consider themselves Marxist, but they are on the left and don't realize that their
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ideas are kind of rooted in that. And the idea that I articulate and critique in my book is,
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this concept that inside all of us is this beautiful, like perfect princess, or diva, or
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whatever it is. And it's really, it's society, it's the patriarchy, it's capitalism, it's advertising,
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it's unfair expectations, it's fat phobia, it's whatever it is, your kids, your marriage, all these
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things are holding back that inner perfect princess inside of you. And what you need to do is to
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liberate yourself from those things. And so you need to commit yourself to radical self-care, to
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radical self-love. And that's going, they use all these euphemisms, once again, drawing boundaries,
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cutting toxic people out of your life, which of course sounds good. I'm not saying that there's
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anything wrong with boundaries or cutting actually toxic people. But what they really mean by that
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is a form of glorified narcissism. And they tell you that you owe that to yourself because you're
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never going to fully find who you really are, your true authentic self, your autonomous self,
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until you throw off all of these things that are holding you back. And that is in direct
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contradiction, as is this whole blank slate thing, which I'm realizing are very similar, if not the
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same, it's in direct contradiction to what Christianity says, that we are actually totally
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depraved. I mean, the Bible talks about in sin, my mother and father conceived me. And so we actually
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believe that we are depraved and that we need to be not just made better, new and improved, but we
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actually need to be made a new person, that we actually need to be born again because the old self is
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wasting away because of sin. We need to put on the new self made after the likeness of Christ in
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holiness. And the only way that we can do that is through regeneration of the Holy Spirit by grace
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through faith in Christ. And so it is actually in direct contradiction to the gospel, this whole
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thing, this whole blank slate, this whole inside you is this perfect self and all of these structures,
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which is all really a form of Marxism, which I didn't really realize before. And that's just
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another, and I would say probably the most fundamental reason why the Christian worldview and the
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Marxist worldview, they just cannot, they cannot align because their view of where we come from
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and who the moral authority is and what human nature is, they're totally opposite.
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Completely opposite. Like you could be the only Christian on the planet and your relationship
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with Christ and that renewal doesn't depend on anybody else. And it literally doesn't matter.
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But with Marx, they're actually seeking spiritual renewal as well. And that you actually have to,
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in a sense, be born again as social man, or depends on how it gets translated from the German,
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socialist man, social man, one or the other. And so what that means is it's a man who's,
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according to the dialectical process of their thought, who has been made to live in a society.
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In other words, to fully integrate into society where there's no longer any tension between the
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fact that you're an individual who lives with other people, right? And so the way that you
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achieve your awakening is by making everybody else think the same way you do. And that's,
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man and society are renewed at the same time in the Marxist theology. Whereas with the Christian
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theology, your renewal begins the moment you accept Christ, period. It's a totally individual
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decision. It's totally up to you. You were given free will by God to make this decision or not
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on your own. Well, you're sitting with a Calvinist. And so I have a little bit of a different take,
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but I understand what you're saying. So, yeah. I understand that Calvinism has a slightly different
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perspective on this and the elect and all of this and the, yes, irresistible grace. That said,
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within Marxism, but see, now that's just been that God has ordained in advance, which things are
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going to happen. And that's what's going to happen. Over here within Marxism, again, man and society
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either don't renew at all or renew together as one thing. So until you have the perfect socialist
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society or communism, you don't have the renewed man either. They are in dialectical relationship
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with one another. They are opposites. They can't pull apart from one another. They are defined in
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terms of one another. And their resolution is when those things become co-continuous. Man and society
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become co-continuous. So your renewal in Marxism as a spiritual thing has nothing to do with your
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beliefs about Christ or any other such thing. It has to do with if you can make the new society
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come about and get other people, all other people to be on board with it. And it is so much like
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Christian eschatology in that it says, you know, this is what the end time is going to look like.
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And it really does remind me of the promise of the World Economic Forum that you'll owe nothing and
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be happy. Obviously, in Christian theology, we believe that Christ will rule in perfect peace and
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that we will be fully joyful and at peace and that we will have no sorrow or sickness. But that's
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because we believe in Christ's rule, whereas the Marxists believe that that can happen here on earth.
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We can achieve that kind of liberation. But basically, everyone has to comply and become their own
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gods in a sense, right? Yes. In fact, the goal, they say this explicitly in their literature,
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I don't know how metaphorical they're being, is to get back into the Garden of Eden and to kick
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out the jailer that was there from the beginning. Our birthright is the garden. And I say that they
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say this literally. Herbert Marcuse, for example, in Eros and Civilization, which he wrote in 1955,
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said that the goal is to get back into the garden. And the way that you do it is by taking a second bite
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of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That's in there. He says that. And, you know,
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the being in the garden, this kind of perfect utopian kingdom of God. It's so much sense with
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what they think. It's exactly what they think. But we're all in it together because the garden
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only works when we're all there as one perfect, no domination, united society.
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But also like within the Garden of Eden, because they tend to, it seems like Marxists tend to think
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that all like hierarchies are inherently oppressive. But there was a hierarchy in the garden, not just
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between God and man, but also between man and the rest of creation. And so, again, this goes back to
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their just erroneous view of human nature. We were created in hierarchy from the very beginning. So it's
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a little bit confusing to me why they think going back to the Garden of Eden is going to get rid of
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all hierarchy. Oh, well, because God won't be there. See, that's absolutely key. God.
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So it's not getting rid of Satan when you say the jailer. It's getting rid of God.
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Yeah. God's the jailer. Marxism is ultimately a Gnostic religion, which means that it holds that
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God is a demon, not actually the deity. And he's so what he is is somebody that went through this
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process already, reached a level of power and ability or whatever, and then came into the garden
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and ruled over people falsely as a demon and then, you know, used his power to kick people out and all
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of this. But this is all fake and evil. And so it's our birthright. And we just have to we have to get
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God out of the way and realize that he's a demon. And then we become like him. In fact, the point of the
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Marxist project is the dialectical relationship between the subject and object. I am a human
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subject. I visualize in my mind that which I want to see in the world and I create it.
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And I know myself through my creation, which is I know myself as a creator. But because there's
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intersubjectivity, in other words, you have a subjectivity, I have a subjectivity, all the people
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have subjectivities and they have to work together somehow. They all have to synthesize into kind of
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the same program or it's not going to work because one of us is dominating the other. There's a hierarchy
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unless we're all thinking the same thing, working the same way, like the Star Trek Borg or whatever.
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And we all therefore know ourselves as creators, as the authors of history. And history is, in fact,
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the authorship of man realizing himself as creative or as the creator. It's totally, to think that you
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could take anything that's derived from Marxism and kind of cobble it into Christianity is absolutely
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And I know very smart people who try to do that, who try to say, well, I agree with 20 to 30% of
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Okay, we only have a few minutes. And this kind of leads into what I at least want to briefly talk
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to you about. It seems to me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to mischaracterize
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you, that you kind of understand. Well, okay, I won't even put that on you. What it seems to me
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is that it's not just that Marxism and all of its subsidiaries are a direct contradiction to
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Christianity, but also that Christianity and Christian theology alone is actually the antidote
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to Marxism. It's the only thing that can really replace it. And it's, well, I'm curious to know
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if you agree with that, or if you think that there is something else that we can replace Marxism with
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here in the West, as far as a guiding philosophy goes as the foundation of Western society and the
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making of laws that is not Christian in nature, you're not a Christian. And so what do you think
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is a good basis of, for society? What do you think is a good moral foundation?
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Well, I mean, I'm not opposed to using Christianity, obviously, but what ultimately boils down to is a
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disposition of either humility or arrogance. So the Marxist view, if you see yourself as the creator,
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then that's obviously crazy arrogance. And you think that anything becomes possible,
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and you start blaming other people for why your subjectivity is limited, and therefore you can't
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create and have whatever you want. That's a very arrogance-based problem. Now, within Christianity,
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obviously, the whole idea is that you can do nothing but be humble before God. It'd be ridiculous not
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to. But if you don't take a theological perspective in the traditional sense of believing in a God,
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there's still the fact of there is the world. We are human beings within it. We have a nature that,
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and it turns out, maybe we could mold through something horrific like eugenics, but we shouldn't
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be so arrogant as to screw with things like that. It's a bad idea. And so being humble before the fact
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that human beings and the world are as they are, and therefore that there are right and wrong ways
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to engage with one another that clearly manipulation and forcing people to believe all in the same way
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about the same things, that's somehow very inimical to whatever the human spirit really is, whether you
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see that as being a unique child of God made in Mago Dei or otherwise. It's still, I think our spirit is
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fundamentally based in freedom, wanting to be free, not arbitrarily from so-called systems or structures,
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but rather that we get to do to the degree that's possible our own self-determination
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in life. And so I generally think that any broad philosophy that's rooted deeply in an epistemology
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geared toward truth, an ontology that accepts being as something that is outside of us, that we are not
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the creators in our heads of that which is. Therefore, we have very limited faculty over
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it. Maybe we're incredibly skilled people and we can drive a great big, you know, machine and move
00:23:49.420
the earth. It's still so small, right? Anywhere where we start to have kind of a epistemological and
00:23:55.580
ontological and then axiological, which is values-based orientation toward humility and that there's
00:24:03.460
something core to what it means to actually be human that's rooted in being able to be free to
00:24:09.020
the point of self-determination, I think is extraordinarily key. Now, as somebody who has
00:24:16.780
obviously benefited tremendously from the kind of Judeo-Christian backbone that's been in this
00:24:23.140
country and having, you know, read scripture and thought about the message that it's providing,
00:24:30.060
I think that it is actually an excellent anchor regardless of, you know, if some people decide
00:24:35.520
to believe it in various degrees of literality or not, and other people decide that they don't want
00:24:40.180
to believe it at all. But I still think that it's an excellent backbone of, you know, values and what
00:24:47.440
meaning in life is and what the role of faith actually should be, whether it's faith in God or faith
00:24:55.720
kind of in this, you know, generally in the best of humanity or whatever else. I think that that's,
00:25:02.780
I really do think it's a good anchor that we should be encouraging as a cultural backbone throughout
00:25:12.020
society. And of course, it falls heavily to believers to be the stewards of that and to bring that light,
00:25:21.900
you know, to, as I said, you know, spread the gospel to people so that they can hear these messages,
00:25:27.960
the values contained in their work. They're extremely effective. They're effective for very
00:25:34.580
good reasons. If you believe they're divinely inspired, that's the reasons. If you see that
00:25:39.800
they've stood the test of time for 2,000 years and produced flourishing societies everywhere they've
00:25:43.900
gone, that's other reasons that are a little bit more practical in the world without invoking theology.
00:25:49.720
But generally speaking, I think that that's what it comes down to, and a disposition toward
00:25:53.720
humility rather than arrogance, toward taking responsibility and seeing people as individuals.
00:26:00.600
I invoke the imago dei all the time, despite not being a believer, like to think that because you are
00:26:08.460
an individual who is formed for a purpose, according to the theology, and that, you know,
00:26:15.520
you need to live that purpose. That's a very powerful and important message. So, you know,
00:26:22.140
and again, just stop thinking you're the creator and that everything is possible. Like, you're not
00:26:28.580
going to change your gender. You're not going to. Like, some things just aren't possible,
00:26:33.540
and you don't have to make it. It's not oppression that some things are not possible. It's not oppression
00:26:41.380
that, and I'm all about people experimenting with things in life, but you also have to be willing to
00:26:46.100
admit that didn't work. And that's like the whole Old Testament, right? Israelites experimented with
00:26:51.820
life, and God got mad at them, and bad things happened, and then they bring back up. He brings up a
00:26:56.600
prophet. The prophet brings them back to God, and they get their life right. And that's,
00:27:00.540
metaphorically speaking, you know, a lesson. Yeah. Try things in life, but be humble. Come back.
00:27:08.720
Yeah. I would say, and I'll end on this, is that Christianity is the why behind anyone should have
00:27:21.520
humility underneath those things. Because there is a transcendent moral lawgiver who says what is and
00:27:29.740
what isn't, who isn't just answering those ontological questions, the philosophical questions
00:27:36.300
that we're talking about, but also the teleological questions. You mentioned purpose. There is
00:27:42.060
only a creator of something can tell you what something is actually made for, and that's what
00:27:50.920
we get in God. That doesn't just tell us, okay, you are made male and female biology because you only
00:27:56.360
have one tell us, just like anything else, just like a bird, you know, can't be a turtle and vice
00:28:01.460
versa. Man can't be a woman. Obviously, Christian theology tells us that, but it also answers that
00:28:06.740
question of, well, why are we humble? Why are we not our own gods? If we are the greatest power in this
00:28:12.580
universe, why can't we? Why can't we create man or society in our image? And of course, the Christian
00:28:18.660
answer is to that is because God made us in his image. We actually don't have the power and the
00:28:23.100
authority to do that. And the only authority that we do have over creation, which of course,
00:28:27.400
from Genesis 1, we believe that we have, is endowed to us by God, just like our rights were endowed to
00:28:34.100
us by God. And of course, as I'm sure that you would agree, without the, not just Christianity,
00:28:38.780
but the Protestant Reformation, this idea that, okay, we're not just handed down truth from some
00:28:44.060
person on high, but that we actually have the ability, that self-determination feature,
00:28:49.900
that individualism feature that comes from Protestants. And that's why America exists.
00:28:55.420
That's why the West exists. I don't see us getting back, if it's even possible, getting back to,
00:29:04.120
you know, where we used to be as Western civilization without realizing the values in the biblical worldview,
00:29:13.540
in particular in the Protestant worldview, whether or not you're a Protestant or a Christian.
00:29:17.540
And I just don't think that we can push back against Marxism without Christian theology.
00:29:26.460
And of course, the bigger reason why I believe in all of that is not just pragmatic or political,
00:29:31.720
but of course, because I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that there is no salvation
00:29:35.340
apart from him. I just take him at his word in John 14, 6. But just in talking to you,
00:29:41.360
I just see how Christianity answers all of these intricate, complex questions. And I mean, I'm
00:29:49.080
hopeful. I'm hopeful that you will believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because that's the piece
00:29:53.860
that's missing. You understand it cognitively. You just don't believe in your heart that it's true.
00:30:00.660
Yep. Well, I think that my audience will be praying about that. I'm going to be praying about that.
00:30:05.600
And there's nothing you can do about it, especially from us Calvinists. Especially from us Calvinists.
00:30:11.980
Yeah, we don't believe that you're going to be able to resist that grace when it comes to you. So
00:30:17.160
we'll see. We'll be praying. Thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time. And everyone can buy
00:30:23.160
On Amazon, actually. We're publishing it, self-publishing through the company. So it's
00:30:27.560
only available on Amazon. It's called Race Marxism. And it should be out very soon, if not already,
00:30:32.800
depending on when this goes. This will be out today.
00:30:35.560
Okay. It goes out on the 15th then. Okay. 15th of February. Pre-order the e-book now if you want.
00:30:46.520
Okay, guys. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with James Lindsay. There was even more that we
00:30:51.720
could have talked about, but we were running low on time. Obviously, this was a really long
00:30:55.680
conversation. And so we'll have to have him back and exclusively talk about theology and Christianity
00:31:02.180
and why. Why doesn't he believe that Jesus is Lord? I'm sure that he has his reasons for that.
00:31:06.720
And we didn't even have time to get into all of it, but we will in the future. But I hope that that
00:31:12.100
was an edifying conversation, an interesting conversation for you guys. I know I touched
00:31:16.640
on predestination and Calvinism a little bit there. And for those of you who haven't been listening for
00:31:21.280
very long, you might be wondering, hang on, what is she talking about? What is Calvinism? How could
00:31:26.680
she be Calvin? Whatever it is that you were thinking there and hoping that I would expound upon
00:31:31.160
I will link some previous episodes that I've done talking about this. And I'll talk about
00:31:38.060
predestination again in a future episode because I really like that topic. It's a fun topic for me
00:31:44.160
to talk about. And so we will make sure to dive into that again at a future time. Maybe we'll have
00:31:50.140
a discussion. Actually, I did. Seth Dillon, the CEO of Babylon Bee, we did kind of have a disagreement
00:31:56.300
in our conversation about that. And we'll put a link to that conversation in the description of
00:32:01.960
this episode as well. Thank you guys, as always, for listening and for subscribing on YouTube. If
00:32:06.080
you love the podcast, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. That means so much. All right,