Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 582 ｜ How to Share the Gospel with LGBTQ People ｜ Guest： Becket Cook

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:00:05.020 at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:20.040 All right, guys, we've got a very fun show for you today. We are talking to Beckett Cook.

00:00:25.240 He is the host of the Beckett Cook Show. He wrote a book called A Change in Affection a few years ago,

00:00:31.620 and that is about his conversion to Christianity and going from an actively gay lifestyle

00:00:37.280 to now an obedient Christian lifestyle. And so we're going to talk about that. I'm sure that

00:00:43.880 there's plenty in the conversation that some people will find very controversial. But for

00:00:49.000 the majority of my audience, you are just going to be incredibly encouraged. The power and the

00:00:56.860 grace of God in redeeming people's lives. I just love hearing people's testimony. There is such

00:01:02.400 power in a testimony, and it just reminds you of the sweetness and the goodness of the gospel,

00:01:07.700 the faithfulness of God, the relentlessness of God to pursue whomever he is going to pursue in

00:01:13.560 whatever ways he is going to pursue them. I love that about God, and I love hearing individual

00:01:19.860 stories of that redemption in their own lives. And so you're going to be so encouraged. And then

00:01:25.240 we're also going to ask him some questions towards the end of the conversation.

00:01:29.140 We're going to ask him, okay, do you attend the gay wedding of a friend as a Christian? Do you use 0.92

00:01:35.140 preferred pronouns as a Christian? What about that verse in 1 Corinthians that says that we're not even

00:01:40.860 supposed to associate with someone who calls themselves a Christian and is sexually immoral 0.98

00:01:45.880 in any way or who is an idolater? It lists a whole host of sins. What does that actually look like? Do

00:01:51.140 we exclude them from our lives? How do we love these people in a way that is truthful but also gracious?

00:01:57.040 We're going to get into all of that. And before we do, I do want to say that yesterday I was in

00:02:02.980 Louisiana. Go listen to yesterday's episode that we had already had pre-recorded with a professor.

00:02:08.540 You're going to love it. You're going to absolutely love yesterday's conversation if

00:02:13.640 you haven't listened to it. Another possibly controversial conversation because we talk

00:02:18.240 about race in America and we talk about the claim of systemic racism. And he has some

00:02:26.660 non-mainstream views about that that are very interesting. And I know you're going to learn

00:02:32.740 a lot from it. But yesterday we were in Louisiana. I went to Monroe, Louisiana. And I was on the

00:02:41.720 Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson and with Al Robertson. And you're going to love that episode

00:02:49.700 whenever it comes out. I don't know when it's going to come out. But then also I interviewed them

00:02:53.720 for my show. That episode will come out at a later day. But I just love them so much. I know a lot of

00:02:59.360 you guys love them. I posted yesterday on Instagram that I was going to Louisiana. A lot of you were

00:03:06.060 asking me what I was doing in your state. I was there very quickly. Flew there yesterday morning.

00:03:12.340 And then, guys, my flight got canceled. I got to the airport and my flight home got canceled. And I had

00:03:18.040 to drive home last night. And that was kind of crazy. But I'm here. I'm safe and sound to bring

00:03:24.000 this content to you today. So, yeah, lots to look forward to. Lots to look forward to in Alleyland

00:03:30.760 for different interviews coming out. But let's get to this interview. Without further ado, here is our

00:03:35.180 new friend, Beckett Cook. Beckett, thank you so much for joining us. I've been wanting to have you

00:03:43.000 on for a really long time. So I'm so glad this worked out. Can you tell everyone who may not know

00:03:48.120 who you are and what you do? Thank you, Allie. Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. That's where I am

00:03:54.220 right now. And for many, many years, I was a production designer in Hollywood. But when my

00:04:02.920 book came out in 2019, I kind of lost. I kind of got canceled in Hollywood because my book is pretty

00:04:09.680 scandalous. So now I'm pretty much in full-time ministry. I kind of travel around the country,

00:04:17.440 speak at conferences, at churches. And I'm writing another book. And I also have a YouTube show

00:04:23.680 called The Beckett Cook Show. So that all keeps me pretty busy. And I went to seminary in 2014

00:04:29.560 at Talbot School of Theology at Biola. So I knew God was kind of pulling me out of the production

00:04:36.240 design world and into more kind of full-time ministry. So that's where I am now.

00:04:41.060 And for people who have no idea, they're coming into this just having heard of Beckett Cook,

00:04:45.900 what was your book about? Why was it so scandalous?

00:04:50.000 Scandal. So it's called A Change of Affection. And my affections dramatically changed 12 years ago.

00:04:57.240 So when I was very young, I don't know, in elementary school, probably fifth or sixth grade,

00:05:05.740 I started to realize that I was attracted to the same sex, which was a really strange phenomenon to

00:05:12.500 happen when you're a kid in Dallas, Texas, when it's very much taboo to be gay, or even to have

00:05:18.800 those feelings. And so I kind of wrestled with that and sort of had this like external life where I was

00:05:27.920 friends and popular with people in school. But then on the inside, I was dealing with this kind of

00:05:32.680 struggle and didn't really know how to process it. And then in high school, that's when kind of the

00:05:38.360 dam broke. Because I ended up becoming best friends with someone who at Jesuit who was going

00:05:44.680 through the same thing. And we started going out in Dallas to gay bar. I mean, I was like 14 and 15

00:05:49.780 years old, going to gay bars in Cedar Springs, Oklahoma, and going to the Star Club and all these

00:05:57.160 parents, did they have any idea what was going on?

00:05:59.960 No, well, no, not really, because I was the youngest of eight kids. And so by the time my

00:06:09.700 parents got to me, they were just very hands off. They're like, just do whatever. We don't even know

00:06:14.340 what you're doing. And you know, I was making straight A's in school. So they didn't really,

00:06:19.600 they didn't really pay attention, for better or for worse, I think for worse. But so I had this kind

00:06:24.800 of leeway to move about the cabin freely. And, and so, and so I explored gay culture in high school,

00:06:33.040 I was, you know, pretty precocious. And, and then the same thing, I went away to college. And the

00:06:38.920 same thing happened, I became best friends with somebody who was dealing with this, you know,

00:06:43.280 same sex attraction, we came out to each other. And again, I had like a confidant and a, you know,

00:06:49.600 partner in crime and in college, where we could go out and no one really knew. And in high school

00:06:55.840 and in college, I was in the closet. And I never thought being gay was kind of a permanent thing

00:07:04.120 in my life. I thought it was just gonna, I thought, you know, it was weird. It was like, this is what

00:07:08.120 I'm feeling now. I'm just going to go with these desires. But eventually, I'm gonna, you know, have a

00:07:13.340 wife and kids. But so I never really thought of it. Sorry to interrupt, but you were Catholic,

00:07:16.960 because you, you went to Jesuit, you said, which for those who don't know, that's a Catholic school

00:07:22.180 in Dallas. So you were raised Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic. Yes. Gotcha.

00:07:28.320 I know. Yeah, big Catholic family. And so, and then, and then after college, that's when after college,

00:07:37.360 I moved to Tokyo with my best friend. And that's when it became really my identity. Because while I

00:07:44.820 was in Japan, while I was in Tokyo, my roommate invited his friend from Texas to come visit us.

00:07:52.280 And his friend and I ended up falling in love. And I can't say his name, but it was a guy. And,

00:08:00.080 and we ended up falling in love. And that's when it was the first time I'd ever had that experience.

00:08:05.520 And that's when it was like, okay, this is definitely who I am. This is my identity.

00:08:11.560 It's immutable. This is the way this is my life now. And I came out to everyone, I came out to my

00:08:17.740 family, my friends. And, and, and, and that's when I just kind of that's when it became my full,

00:08:24.600 full identity. Yeah. And what does that feel like the feeling of going from okay, this is just kind of

00:08:33.380 maybe a fleeting feeling that I have, or this is a phase that I'm going through. You said in high

00:08:38.180 school, and maybe some in college, you thought, oh, I'm still gonna grow up and get married to a

00:08:43.140 woman and have kids. What was that transition like? And why do you think that transition happened from 1.00

00:08:49.540 these are just some feelings that I have that may or may not be fleeting to okay, this is now

00:08:55.140 permanently, immutably who I am. Was it the falling in love that made you feel that way? Or were there

00:09:01.980 some other things going on that kind of made you say, nope, this is this is me?

00:09:07.280 I mean, a part of it was the culture around me, because it was becoming more and more accepted

00:09:12.480 in the culture. But it the tipping point really was the falling in love aspect, because that's,

00:09:19.660 that's when I just felt like, okay, this is, I'm all in. And I, you know, I didn't,

00:09:25.780 I no longer cared about what people thought of me, or I no longer cared about this, this,

00:09:31.940 because it was still there was kind of stigma attached to it in the early 90s. And so,

00:09:37.360 so I but I didn't care. And I was just like, I told everyone, and I told my, you know, my family,

00:09:42.620 they, they, my parents, reaction was actually really lovely. And again, part of it was because

00:09:49.140 I was the youngest of eight, but they were just very calm, they and they believe they believed

00:09:55.120 that homosexual behavior was sinful. I mean, they were very clear on that. But they were super 1.00

00:10:02.120 loving to me, in spite of that. And, and they didn't really, you know, there were no kind of

00:10:08.860 dramatic scenes of like throwing me out of the house, or, you know, quoting scripture to me,

00:10:13.820 because they already knew that what they knew that I knew what they believed. So there was no need for

00:10:18.720 that. So they were just over the years, they were so, so sweet, and lovely to me, which I really,

00:10:25.120 really appreciate. But, but and then I and then after that, after, you know, coming back from Tokyo,

00:10:30.880 I moved to Los Angeles in 1993. And that's when that's when it kind of really, really got shifted

00:10:40.280 into high gear. Because when I got to LA, I got into this, you know, really fun group of friends all

00:10:47.280 from the East Coast Ivy League schools, like really smart, ambitious. It was there were straight 1.00

00:10:52.980 people, gay people. And though all those friends now run Hollywood, they literally create all the 1.00

00:11:00.980 content that the world sees now, which is crazy. And, and so once I got into this group of friends,

00:11:08.020 I mean, and I was in Los Angeles, I just felt like so liberated and free. And like, this is,

00:11:14.260 no, this is my life. And I cycled through five really serious relationships with guys,

00:11:21.100 live in, we live together. And so, and I, and I, we, you know, we did everything in Hollywood,

00:11:27.540 because all of my friends were in the business, they were aspiring writers, actors, directors,

00:11:33.380 producers. We all wanted the same things. We wanted to make it big in Hollywood, which

00:11:38.900 they all did in a big, big way. And we all wanted to have these kind of extraordinary experiences,

00:11:45.820 which we were having in spades, because we were, we were always invited to the, you know,

00:11:51.020 movie premieres every week, and to the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes, and the after parties,

00:11:55.980 and the Vanity Fair parties, and all these, I was always kind of just invited to things like I was,

00:12:02.120 I would end up at Ariana Huffington's house all the time, you know, for cocktails, or

00:12:06.220 having dinner with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep, you know, and just all these things. So I was

00:12:12.040 having these great experiences. And our other thing was, we all wanted to find the one true love.

00:12:18.040 And so we were always kind of on the on the search for that. And, and, you know, I, as I said,

00:12:23.960 every time I would get into a relationship with a guy, I'd be like, Okay, this is the one. Yeah,

00:12:28.720 he's gonna save me. This is like, you know, this is amazing. And of course, it would end in two years.

00:12:34.340 It was always like a shelf life of two years on these relationships.

00:12:38.420 Yeah, I think a lot of people can relate to that. And when you say that, you know,

00:12:42.720 you thought that this person was going to save you, what I mean, what do you mean by that? What

00:12:49.000 were some of those feelings? Why do you think and maybe this is just how everyone feels when they're

00:12:53.720 searching for the one. But why do you think you felt like, Oh, my gosh, I have to find the one it's a

00:12:59.000 form of like, romantic salvation that I'm seeking? What do you think that was in you that

00:13:04.500 kind of created that desperate longing?

00:13:07.300 I think it was a longing for purpose, really, because I had no I knew, I knew that God was

00:13:12.800 never an option for me because I was gay. So I was very clear.

00:13:16.380 Okay, so you were not you didn't even identify as a Christian or a Catholic at this point?

00:13:20.440 No, and even growing up in the Catholic Church, I never, I never connected with it at all. I just

00:13:26.940 thought it was kind of theater, you know, and, and I, I never felt any connection really to God

00:13:34.000 growing up. And so. So yeah, I think I was looking for meaning and purpose in my life, because I that

00:13:43.640 then the only way without God, the only kind of purpose you can get is either through your career

00:13:49.100 or through a relationship. I mean, or I don't I mean, there may be other ways, but those are the

00:13:53.780 main ways. And so that's kind of what I threw myself into was my career and and was in these

00:14:01.500 relationships. And I thought and especially in the relationships, I thought the guy would, you know,

00:14:07.760 somehow, really give my life this like purpose and meaning and, and it felt that way, you know,

00:14:14.180 at least in the beginning of those relationships, it felt like I had some sort of purpose. But then

00:14:20.320 it would, of course, vanish over time. Yeah. So you are in what stage of your life? Are you in 20s,

00:14:27.300 30s still in my 20s? Yeah. Okay. So that's when you were living in LA with this great group of people,

00:14:33.360 you were going through a series of really serious relationships. And at what point did you realize,

00:14:40.340 okay, these people that I'm it sounds like also, in addition to like wanting purpose,

00:14:44.420 you really wanted to be known, we all want that intimacy, you want to be fully known by someone

00:14:50.180 and fully loved for everything you are. I think that is a desire that all of us have. And maybe your

00:14:56.580 disconnect from God was also causing you to kind of seek that intimacy and that fully knownness

00:15:05.240 in someone else. But when did you realize, okay, I've tried that several times, and it's not actually

00:15:11.540 giving me the thing that I'm looking for. It's not actually fulfilling me.

00:15:15.500 Well, you know, in these kind of relationships, especially in gay male, I think, especially in gay

00:15:22.900 male relationships, there's this, it's not unconditional love. It's always quid pro quo.

00:15:30.300 And it's always kind of like, as long as I have a great career, and you have great abs,

00:15:35.480 like we're good to go. But like, the second you slip, like, you know, a lot of my friends won Oscars

00:15:40.880 and, and Golden Globes and all these things. And it's like, suddenly, like, if my friend Dustin Lance

00:15:46.780 Black won the Oscar for the movie Milk, then suddenly he's like, okay, like he, you know, 0.99

00:15:53.020 the quid pro quo changes. So, so it was always that kind of pressure. I, when I was in these

00:15:59.740 relationships, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells. And that, you know, just the one wrong

00:16:05.300 move, and it would be over. And that was actually the case. And there was a lot of infidelity, a lot of,

00:16:12.420 you know, lying and drama. And so I think, you know, after the fifth relationship, I just kind

00:16:20.680 of was like, I mean, I was already starting to feel this in general in my life. I was just kind

00:16:26.000 of like, is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is? You know, I was getting to that point

00:16:31.940 of the law of diminishing returns were setting in. And I just felt like, you know, I've been doing

00:16:39.360 this for so long. I've been going to, you know, I would go to parties that I would go to Prince's

00:16:45.040 house, you know, for a private concert in his backyard and tell all these things. And, and I

00:16:50.800 would go to fashion week in New York and Paris. And I thought, you know, for a long time, those shiny

00:16:55.860 objects sustain me and, and my friends sustain me because they were so fun and interesting and,

00:17:01.360 and smart. And, but after, you know, cause even since high school, after like 20 years of,

00:17:09.340 doing these kinds of things and purchasing these kinds of shiny objects, you just start

00:17:14.940 to, I, in my life, I just started to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like this isn't

00:17:22.020 going to sustain me for the rest of my life. I don't know what, I don't know what I'm going

00:17:25.980 to do, but I can't keep just doing this.

00:17:29.120 So tell me what it was like hearing the gospel, maybe for the first time or in a real way,

00:17:39.800 the first time or understanding it and tell me about becoming a Christian when and how and

00:17:45.340 why?

00:17:46.420 Yeah, well, it started in Paris in March of 2009. I was at fashion week. I used to go to fashion

00:17:53.260 weeks a lot in New York and Paris. And so I was at fashion week. I went to a bunch of the

00:17:58.280 runway shows. I went to a bunch and they have after parties and I was at an Stella McCartney's

00:18:04.240 after party and everyone from the fashion world was there. Kanye was there. It was like, and

00:18:10.660 people were dancing and drinking champagne. And it was at this nightclub in the middle of

00:18:15.340 Paris called Regine. And I just, that's when it really hit me that, that I just felt overwhelmed

00:18:23.560 with emptiness. And I just kind of like, felt like this cannot be my life. I like, this was

00:18:30.720 fun. This was a great, you know, I had a great time for a long time, but this cannot be my

00:18:34.760 life anymore. And I, I ghosted the party. I went back to my, my, the apartment I had rented

00:18:40.280 and I was kind of up all night in a panic about my future. And then I, you know, I get back to LA

00:18:48.240 a couple of days later and then cut to six months later. I'm with my best friend who is

00:18:54.400 gay. And, and we, you know, we used to do the kind of, we used to hang out all the time,

00:18:59.720 like every, almost every night and every weekend. And, and on the weekends we would go to brunch

00:19:04.980 in Venice. We would go shopping in West Hollywood or Beverly Hills, which is gay church brunch 1.00

00:19:09.460 and shopping. And then we would go to this coffee shop in Silver Lake and hang out. Cause it

00:19:15.020 was like, it was kind of, you know, it was always kind of active and crowded and fun people,

00:19:20.440 interesting people and friends we knew. So we were there that day and, and, uh, we were

00:19:27.780 chatting and we know suddenly we, we look over and the table next to us is a group of young

00:19:33.140 people with Bible, physical Bibles on the table. And we, I had never seen a Bible in public

00:19:39.380 in LA in my life. So it was a, it was a shocking sight. And my friend was, was shocked too. We were,

00:19:46.340 we were both like, what is going on? Like, this is bizarre, especially in Silver Lake,

00:19:51.040 which is a very kind of progressive enclave of LA. And so we were half repulsed and half intrigued by

00:20:00.320 them. And so, and why were you, why do you think you felt some feelings of repulsion?

00:20:08.380 Because it was just like, because historically for, you know, for, for us, evangelical Christians,

00:20:17.120 and we just, I assume they were just evangelical Christians. You could kind of tell. So I,

00:20:21.580 evangelical Christians were always the enemy in, in gay culture. And so, so that was, it was kind of 1.00

00:20:28.700 residual revolt. It wasn't really, I wasn't like super revolted by them, but it was just kind of

00:20:34.020 that residual, like, Ooh, like Christians. But then I was kind of like, wait a minute. I, I don't 1.00

00:20:40.240 really know what my life is about. Maybe they have some answers. And so it's like a Christian's 1.00

00:20:45.220 fantasy come true. I turned to them and I'm like, Hey, um, are you guys Christians? And what's the 0.98

00:20:50.540 gospel? No way. By that time in my life, I had, I had really, by that time in my life, I was a

00:20:59.780 practical atheist. Like I, I honestly believed that the Bible was an ancient myth, like any other

00:21:06.100 ancient myth. I, I, I believe God was a fairy tale. I didn't, I didn't believe in it. And, but when I saw

00:21:14.620 them, it just, I just felt like, you know, what have I got to lose? Cause of, because of that night

00:21:20.300 in Paris six months before, I just thought, you know, maybe I just want to talk to them and see

00:21:25.660 what they say. And so I, I honestly didn't even remember like what the, the, what the gospel was

00:21:33.380 really. I mean, I kind of knew obviously vaguely, but I just needed to hear it. So I turned to them

00:21:38.340 and I just said, you know, what do you guys believe? Because I grew up Roman Catholic. I don't

00:21:42.900 really remember. And they said, well, we go to an evangelical church in Hollywood on sunset. And,

00:21:48.200 and, you know, they told me, they told me basically the gospel and this is what we believe. And,

00:21:53.340 and of course I get to the $64,000 question and I say, what is your church in Hollywood believe about

00:22:00.000 homosexuality? And they said, well, we believe it's a sin. And I, I, at the, in that moment, I really,

00:22:06.180 I wasn't surprised by that, by that answer. And I really appreciated how honest they were.

00:22:12.900 And that they didn't try to dodge the question and, you know, kind of obvious, like, I was glad

00:22:18.460 that they just said it, you know, just outright. And, and so in that moment, I thought, okay,

00:22:26.260 what if I've, what if God does exist? I mean, there's a slim chance he does exist. And what if

00:22:33.600 homosexual behavior is wrong, is sinful? And what if I've built my entire life on a false foundation 0.83

00:22:40.000 and I don't know it like that? That's a possibility. And so, so I was receptive. I was

00:22:46.040 open to hearing that from them. Whereas like a couple of years before five years, 10 years before

00:22:51.440 that, I would have been like, you guys are crazy. You need help. You need therapy. Um, but I was open 0.86

00:22:57.500 to hearing that. And then they invited me to their church the following Sunday called reality LA.

00:23:03.720 And, um, which I, I still attend. And I, so I, I had no idea what I was getting into because I had

00:23:10.420 never been to an evangelical church. I didn't know what it was like. I didn't know what it looked like.

00:23:15.640 I was used to stained glass windows and smoke and bells.

00:23:18.320 Yeah. Totally different than the Catholic church.

00:23:19.760 Yeah. I was used to vestments and hats and stuff. And so I show up, I didn't actually,

00:23:26.380 I didn't know if I was going to go because, you know, it's a big deal to kind of, it was like

00:23:31.860 betraying your, your community. Like, you know, if, if anyone ever found out besides my best friend

00:23:38.040 who was there, like I, it was just would have been very weird and awkward.

00:23:41.960 What was his reaction? Was he kind of like, what are you doing?

00:23:45.040 He didn't, um, he was intrigued as well. And, and, and he didn't really know that I was going to,

00:23:54.260 that I was going to follow through and actually go to the service the following Sunday. And I didn't

00:23:58.480 either because I spent the whole week kind of going back and forth. Like, am I going to do this?

00:24:02.360 Is it so weird if I go and it could be humiliating and what if nothing happens?

00:24:07.900 Were you nervous about people being judgmental or right away castigating you? That wasn't the fear?

00:24:14.260 No, not at all. No, I just thought, you know, what if not my biggest fear was what if nothing

00:24:20.420 happens? And then I'm just still stuck in this kind of no man's land of like no purpose in my life

00:24:25.600 and no meaning. And so I, I ended up that Sunday morning, I woke up and I just was like, I guess

00:24:33.360 I'm going to do this. And I drove to the, the, it meets in a high school auditorium and LA public high

00:24:40.960 school, which is funny. And, um, and so I walked in and it was just kind of this really plain

00:24:46.980 auditorium and the worship band was playing. And I, I remember thinking when I walked in,

00:24:53.260 I just was like, Oh, Christian music. That's so weird. I forgot that existed. Gross. But then I was

00:24:59.000 like, wait a minute, it's actually nice. Like it's, and so I, I, and then I found a seat. I,

00:25:03.920 I sat near the front and by myself and the pastor comes out and he starts preaching on Romans chapter

00:25:11.980 seven. And as he's preaching for an hour, just things start to shift in me. It's crazy. As he

00:25:20.420 was preaching, I was hanging on every word and I was riveted to the sermon. Cause I was like,

00:25:26.480 wait a minute, everything he's saying is true. And I don't know why I feel that way right now.

00:25:32.660 What what's going on. And, and I just was, I didn't want him to stop preaching. Cause I was

00:25:38.060 like, this is amazing. Like this is the gospel. This, it, it turned everything. I, I believe I

00:25:43.100 thought religion was on its head. And I was like, this is good news. This is crazy. And so after the 0.98

00:25:51.080 sermon, he, he left, he, before he left the stage, he said, there's people on the side of the church

00:25:57.360 on the prayer ministry. And if you need prayer for anything, you can go ask. So that was another

00:26:02.520 kind of moment of like, do I go over there? If I do, it's kind of, people might be watching me

00:26:07.120 and it's weird, but I was like, whatever I'm here. So I went over to this guy and I said on the prayer

00:26:14.000 team. And I said, you know, I don't know what I believe, but I'm here. And again, it's a Christian

00:26:19.120 fantasy come true. And he says, well, can I pray for you? I'm like, yes. And he, you know,

00:26:26.340 lays his hands on me and he starts praying and it just felt so loving. And I was like,

00:26:33.980 why, how does this random straight guy love me so much and care about me so much? And,

00:26:39.080 and it was just felt very powerful. And then I thanked him. I went back to my seat and there's

00:26:45.320 another 25 minutes of worship music playing. So the lights are kind of dim. It's a room. I go to a

00:26:52.660 Reformed church, but so it's, this sounds kind of wacky, but the lights are dim. But, um, and so I,

00:26:58.760 uh, as soon as I sat to everyone else was standing and singing and worshiping, I sit down and all of

00:27:07.020 a sudden the Holy spirit just flood, like, like overwhelms me. And in that moment, God revealed

00:27:17.560 himself to me. And I'll never forget. I mean, in my mind, he said, God said, I'm God. Jesus is my

00:27:22.900 son. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The Bible is true. Welcome to my kingdom. And I was like,

00:27:28.540 and it's like Isaiah when he's in the temple and he sees the holiness of God and he comes undone.

00:27:34.500 That's what happened to, I just started bawling and bawling. Like I was crying harder than I'd ever

00:27:40.600 cried in my life, except as an infant. But it, because I was just born again, I was, I was kind of an

00:27:46.700 infant. And then, um, so I, I was, was retching for the next 25 minutes. And then I, I got in my

00:27:56.740 car and I drove home. I don't even know how I made it home. Cause I was in such a state and

00:28:01.540 I got into bed to take a nap, uh, because I was so overwhelmed. And, uh, and it happened again.

00:28:08.640 God's like, it was like Moses in the cleft of the rock and God passes by with his glory. God was like,

00:28:13.240 let me show you some more of my glory. And it just was like this huge dose of God's presence again.

00:28:21.040 And I was like, Whoa. And I just burst into tears again, jumped out of my bed and in the middle of

00:28:26.960 my bedroom, I was like, God, you have my whole life. I'm yours. I'm done. And, and I knew in that

00:28:34.140 moment that homosexual behavior was a sin. I knew it was wrong. I, I knew it. Yeah. I knew immediately. 1.00

00:28:40.540 I knew it wasn't who my identity anymore. I knew that dating guys was no longer a part

00:28:45.040 of my future, but I didn't care because I just met Jesus. And I was like, uh, I'm going

00:28:48.720 to go with that guy. Good riddance to that life.

00:28:51.060 So this wasn't, this wasn't a product of, you know, a process over time of people really

00:28:57.140 teaching you, Hey, here's why we believe homosexuality is wrong. Here's what the Bible 0.97

00:29:01.800 says. At that point, you didn't even really know what the Bible said about it. Right. Besides

00:29:05.860 what the Christians had told you originally when you saw them, I knew, I mean, I was, I was aware 0.57

00:29:12.220 of what the Bible, because I, you know, I grew up in the Catholic church and we, I knew what the

00:29:17.440 Bible had to say about homosexual behavior, but, but it was so God had so much grace on me that day.

00:29:23.500 First of all, the fact that he, that all happened the very first time I went to a church

00:29:28.060 was remarkable. And, uh, and he had so much grace and he made it so clear. Just, it was like

00:29:34.900 an instant. I just knew that this is not who I am. This is not my life. And, and, and good. And

00:29:41.780 I was like, and I still, to this day am in shock about, I mean, that was 12 years ago, September,

00:29:47.140 that was September 20th, 2009. And I'm still stunned by it, but I have zero desire to go back to Egypt

00:29:57.060 and to go back into bondage. I have no desire. Like I, I'm so like, I'm so thrilled that God

00:30:05.020 rescued me out of that darkness and out of that life, because that life, what the media, you know,

00:30:11.900 what the media doesn't show obviously is that life is very dark, uh, especially for gay men. And

00:30:19.560 so I, I just, there's just so much like, it's like the glue, the glue that holds that community

00:30:29.920 together. There's three, I think there's three things that, that hold it together. And this may,

00:30:35.980 I mean, this may, I mean, obviously there are exceptions. I'm just generalizing, but, uh, alcohol,

00:30:42.000 drugs, and sex. Like that's what really binds that community together. And at least when I was going,

00:30:49.240 growing up and going through that, that whole thing. So I was thrilled to be out of that bondage

00:30:56.820 because it really is, it's such a, um, I mean, so much goes on behind the scenes that people don't

00:31:04.820 talk about and just like at parties and there's, there's, you know, people in bedrooms doing crazy

00:31:10.740 things. And it's just, it's just a dark world. And I'm so happy to be out of that world and into

00:31:18.720 God's marvelous light. I mean, it's just so, it's so, I can't even express how, how amazing,

00:31:25.300 obviously, you know, how amazing it is, but it's just amazing to be in Christ.

00:31:34.400 There's a couple of things that I want to highlight and get your thoughts on.

00:31:38.000 One thing that I noticed when you were describing the reaction of your parents and then describing,

00:31:42.840 um, the reaction and the response, the reception that you got at the church that you first visited,

00:31:48.360 you talked about their sweetness, about their kindness and about just the love that they showed

00:31:55.380 you. A lot of Christians who know that homosexuality is a sin. We've talked about that several times on

00:32:01.260 this podcast and what the Bible says about that. They have a tough time though, balancing or knowing

00:32:07.060 what it looks like to love someone and also speak the truth to them. Because one of the things that

00:32:12.760 you said was very formative and that you appreciated was that the group of Christians that you saw

00:32:18.420 blatantly said, yeah, we think homosexuality is a sin. A lot of times today we hear a whole lot of

00:32:23.580 caveats and well, you know, we believe God loves everyone. We won't talk about that yet, but you

00:32:28.980 appreciated both the sweetness and the love of people who received you, but also the truth that those

00:32:34.320 Christians told you. Um, so can you talk a little bit more about that for Christians who are wondering

00:32:39.300 how do I love, but also speak the truth in love to people in my life who are gay or who identify as

00:32:46.640 transgender, whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, Jesus was a master at this, obviously. And if you, and I've

00:32:52.860 done this a couple of times where I'll read all four gospels through in one sitting and I'll, I'll pay

00:32:58.480 attention, just I'll focus on how Jesus interacts with people. And he never compromises truth or

00:33:06.380 grace. He's, he always, he's obviously the, he balances grace and truth perfectly. And, you know,

00:33:12.960 when he, yes, of course he, he eats with, and, uh, he, he spends times with tax collectors and sinners

00:33:20.420 and prostitutes, but he always, like, even with, uh, Levi, when he calls Levi to come follow him,

00:33:27.100 Levi leaves his tax booth and basically that, and then there's a, then he has a celebration at his

00:33:33.200 home. And that's, that celebration is a sign of repentance that, that he's left that behind. He's

00:33:38.940 left that life behind. And even the woman at the well, the, the woman in Samaria, like, you know,

00:33:44.320 Jesus was so loving to her and so kind to her, but he called her out on her sin. And, and I mean,

00:33:52.720 that's, and I, so I, in, in Leviticus 19, actually, if I can just read this for a second, um,

00:34:00.160 it, this is about, you know, loving your neighbor. And, uh, it says it's Leviticus 19 verse 17. It

00:34:09.440 says, you shall not hate your, your brother and your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your

00:34:14.080 neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. And so loving your neighbor, in other words, means

00:34:20.960 telling them the truth, telling your neighbor the truth. And so that's what that it's, it's people

00:34:29.460 kind of think like, Oh, it's not very loving to say these things and to say homosexual behavior is a

00:34:34.540 sin. And, but it's actually the most loving thing you can do because, because you're, if you don't,

00:34:40.800 if you, if you're gay affirming, you're aiding and abetting someone's eternal destruction. And so 1.00

00:34:47.900 that, that's the most unloving thing you can possibly do. And so I, I find it to, that's why

00:34:53.600 I was so appreciative of how these, these young Christians just told me the truth, because that's,

00:34:58.800 that's actually loving. And they were, you know, they weren't, they weren't cruel about it or mean

00:35:04.880 about it. They were just very honest and very, they just said it very simply. And so, um, yeah,

00:35:10.760 I think, I think you can, Jesus, you can't check your, you can't check your convictions at the door

00:35:17.580 when, when you're, you know, talking to people or when you're evangelizing, you of course be

00:35:24.260 gracious and loving, but you, you have to tell the truth. And I think, I think that's, we're losing a

00:35:29.160 lot because of this, this issue is so, you know, controversial now in culture, we're losing a lot of

00:35:36.740 that even pastors are kind of afraid to talk about this issue. Yeah. And that's kind of,

00:35:42.680 that kind of leads to my next question, because it seems like for Christians, when compromise happens,

00:35:49.620 when deconstruction happens, um, when they do kind of start embracing more worldly ideologies and dogma

00:35:57.420 and trying to kind of somehow mix that in with Christianity, it does seem like homosexuality is

00:36:03.260 the first thing. Like with Jen Hatmaker, that's one example. We've kind of seen that evolution over 0.69

00:36:08.960 the past few years. I remember, and I think it was 2015 when she talked about, you know, she doesn't

00:36:14.160 think, uh, being gay is a sin. We've seen that with several other, what you would call, you know,

00:36:18.720 professing Christian influencers. And it seems like for people who call themselves progressive

00:36:24.160 Christians, that's the main thing. There might be some other things that they think is wrong with

00:36:28.700 traditional conservative Christianity, but that seems to be the main sticking point and the main

00:36:34.860 reason why some people deconstruct, why some people become so-called progressive Christians.

00:36:42.420 Why do you think that is? And what do you, what do you think about that? What do you think about

00:36:47.300 Christians who say, well, you know, I believe in Jesus and the gospel and all of that, but I also

00:36:51.480 believe that being gay is fine.

00:36:53.660 Well, I, I always think about, so when I was in high school at Jesuit, everyone at Jesuit,

00:37:01.060 everyone at Ursuline, this, you know, this was 30 years ago, they believed there was, it was just

00:37:07.560 unequivocal. They believed that homosexuality was, was wrong. Homosexual behavior was wrong.

00:37:12.460 It just, we didn't have to say anything. It was just understood. Now, some of those very same people

00:37:18.020 from my high school on Facebook, there, there, there's a lot of them are gay affirming. And so, 0.53

00:37:23.640 I, my question is why, what's happened over the last 30 years? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what's

00:37:28.680 happened. And obviously it's the culture and, and we live in a very specific time and place in history

00:37:35.940 and culture in, in the United States. And there's been, you know, for the last, ever since Stonewall

00:37:42.640 in from 1969 until now, there's been this concerted effort to, to obviously normalize homosexual behavior 0.72

00:37:50.640 and, and, and all kinds of media and TV shows, Will and Grace and, uh, you know, Queer Eye and all

00:37:57.000 these TV shows. And those, that, those shows have a massive impact on people's understanding of this

00:38:06.640 issue. And they, of course, when, when you see movies like, you know, Brokeback Mountain or all

00:38:12.420 these other kinds of movies, it just, it, it continues to, it's such a storytelling is so

00:38:20.240 persuasive and it's persuading an entire generation, entire culture that this behavior is not only

00:38:29.140 good and righteous, but it's also holy. It's become, it's gone from a sin to a sacrament over the last,

00:38:36.240 you know, 50 years. And so we have to understand how powerful the culture is. And we have to

00:38:43.540 understand that we are in the middle of it and we have to be aware of what is, what's affecting our

00:38:50.380 belief systems. What's affecting our worldview. Is it the word of God or is it the culture? Is it

00:38:57.400 Netflix? Is it, so you have to be aware of that because it's, again, the culture is so obviously right

00:39:04.800 now is so powerful and just the constant onslaught of media that is pro LGBTQ, you know, it's just,

00:39:14.200 it's just, it's unbelievable really at this point. And, and so we have to be aware of what,

00:39:20.360 what's affecting us. And that, that's why I always, I always tell people like, if you've watched an hour

00:39:24.860 of Netflix, you've just been lied to implicitly or explicitly, and now you need to read the Bible

00:39:30.080 for an hour to be renewed in your mind, you need the truth. And so I think that's, that's the trap.

00:39:37.380 And, and by the way, Satan, Satan is thrilled about this. He's thrilled that he's got an entire

00:39:44.200 generation deceived about this issue. And he's laughing all the way to the bank. He's winning

00:39:50.860 this battle. He's not going to win the war. We know that, but he's winning this battle. And,

00:39:55.740 you know, he's been lying from the beginning. He lied in the guard. He twisted God's word in the

00:39:59.600 beginning to Eve. And he said, did God really say you can't do that? And he's doing the exact same

00:40:04.700 thing with this issue. He's saying, did God really say homosexual behavior is a sin? I mean,

00:40:09.680 it's really just whispered in the Bible, right? And it's not in the, in the, the, the, the passages

00:40:16.400 that talk about it, you know, they're not really clear and, oh, it could be cultural distance or it

00:40:21.120 could be something else. It's only talking about pedophilia. It's only talking about rape. Yeah.

00:40:25.740 There, there's something that we've talked about a lot on this show. And it's an alliteration that

00:40:32.400 I like to use when it comes to the definition of marriage and holy sexuality, because you do hear

00:40:37.740 those arguments a lot that, well, the Bible only prohibits it here. And really it means this,

00:40:42.940 but as Christians, we don't just read the Bible saying, what does God say not to do? But we also

00:40:48.160 look at the Bible and say, well, what does God say to do? It's not a mentality for the Christian, 0.99

00:40:53.000 for the one who has submitted to Christ of what can I get away with? The mentality is how can I

00:40:58.140 deny myself and glorify God the most? And so we also look at what God actually affirms. It's not

00:41:03.680 just that he says homosexuality is wrong, although that would be enough if he did, but he also affirms 1.00

00:41:09.160 that marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout

00:41:15.700 scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself, specifically in Matthew 19. And it is reflective

00:41:22.420 of the gospel because it is representative of Christ and the church, as we see in Ephesians 5.

00:41:29.620 So it's not just a physical bond. The definition of male and female is actually representative

00:41:34.960 of Christ in the church. That means it not only has gospel significance, it has eternal significance.

00:41:41.500 And it's just the hubris of the culture of human beings and of professing Christians to say that 1.00

00:41:49.400 we can redefine that, that thing that is representative of something so huge and so

00:41:56.720 eternal, and it's fine. It's fine. We can redefine this big, huge, significant thing, and it's okay.

00:42:04.380 And it really does, just like all sin, like you said, go back to the garden, and it also goes back to

00:42:08.240 pride. That we think we are more loving than God. We think we are wiser than God. We're more

00:42:13.280 compassionate and empathetic than God. We know truth better than God. That's really what it is.

00:42:18.540 It's all about exchanging the God of scripture for the God of self.

00:42:23.500 Yeah. Speaking of the exchanges, in Romans 1, you know, there's the three exchanges that Paul talks

00:42:29.680 about that we exchange the truth for a lie. And it's interesting because what does Paul use

00:42:36.560 as the illustration at the end of that section, what does Paul use as the illustration for

00:42:42.620 suppressing the truth? Homosexual behavior. And why does he do that? Because it's patently obvious 0.95

00:42:50.520 anatomically, physiologically, that two men or two women do not go together. And that's why Paul used,

00:42:57.560 I think if Paul were around today, he may use the example of abortion as suppressing the truth.

00:43:03.900 Because, you know, even when I was living as a gay man, I was pro-choice. But it's like, I knew,

00:43:12.180 deep down, I knew that that was a baby in the womb. But because all my friends were pro-choice,

00:43:17.920 and I just took that on. And that's just actively suppressing the truth. But anyway, yeah. So the Bible

00:43:26.760 says nothing positive about homosexual behavior. It's all negative. And it's so, I mean, as you said,

00:43:36.740 just from Genesis to Revelation, it's not just those six passages that specifically address it. It's the

00:43:44.360 entire scope of the story of redemption. And the thing is, the Bible is not a handbook on homosexuality.

00:43:52.400 It's the greatest love story ever told. But it's so clear about this issue. And Paul says,

00:43:59.940 do not be deceived. You know, men who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God. 1.00

00:44:05.040 It's just, it's so abundantly clear. And so after I got saved that day, after I came to faith,

00:44:13.720 faith. And when I read the Bible, I mean, I mean, I was just voraciously reading the Bible. I was

00:44:19.840 obsessed with it. And I still am. But I, but every word just jumped off the page. And I was like,

00:44:25.940 whoa, like, this is crazy. I can't believe that I'm a part of this story of redemption. And,

00:44:31.640 and in the passages that talk about sexuality, I just was like, they completely rang true to me.

00:44:38.340 And I just knew that this is the truth. This is the truth.

00:44:42.780 Wow. Okay. I've got, building on that, I've got three specific kind of advice questions to ask you.

00:44:50.460 One thing we talked about, why a lot of Christians, obviously, we know why non-Christians kind of give 1.00

00:44:57.140 in on this issue. But a lot of Christians give in on this issue is not, yes, because of the culture.

00:45:02.520 And I guess one of the messages that culture tells us that political activists, which are ruthless,

00:45:06.880 journalists tell us, is that if we do not affirm someone's so-called sexual or gender identity,

00:45:13.180 then they are going to die. They're going to kill themselves. It is like condoning violence. It's 0.99

00:45:17.000 always that. It's never like, well, you know, this kind of hurts someone's feelings. And it's always

00:45:21.980 straight to, you're condoning their death. You're condoning violence against them if you happen to

00:45:26.140 disagree with that. Well, no one wants to be on that side. Of course, no one wants to. So I think

00:45:30.260 that's one pressure. And I'm wondering if you have some advice specifically when it comes to

00:45:36.260 well, I don't know if I'm trying to split up these questions or bring them together. One thing that

00:45:41.580 people ask me a lot that I've tried to answer, but I want to hear your perspective. Should you use

00:45:46.580 the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know you're not affirming transgenderism?

00:45:51.900 And the second question is, in this whole truth and love realm, should you go to a gay person's 0.97

00:46:01.320 wedding as a Christian to show them love?

00:46:06.620 Well, let's start with the gay wedding thing. So when I, right after I kind of, I think it was

00:46:12.600 like six months to a year after I got saved, my agents at William Morris invited me. Well,

00:46:19.600 one of the agents was gay, is gay, and he was getting married to a man. And we were out at dinner, 0.89

00:46:27.440 and he, the woman agent, she turned to me and she said, Beckett, you're going to so-and-so's wedding,

00:46:35.460 right? And I said, of course I'm going. Because in that moment, I just felt like, oh, like I'm

00:46:40.220 supposed to be loving. I should do this, right? Because I was a brand, I was a baby Christian.

00:46:44.840 I didn't really know what to do. And so I ended up going to the wedding and it was a huge mistake

00:46:53.220 because once I got there, I realized, wait a minute, all these people here are celebrating

00:47:00.540 sin. Like they're celebrating this union between two men and I can't be a part of this.

00:47:08.240 Like, so, um, so my, my thing, my thing with, with gay weddings is I absolutely will not go ever 1.00

00:47:17.220 again. I won't put myself through that again. And I, I, I just think, I mean, it's a, it's a tough

00:47:25.840 question for, for parents. Like, do you go and show your, you know, your love to your child while at

00:47:32.700 the same time, making it clear to them that you, you disagree with, with what's happening.

00:47:38.780 But I find that, you know, Jesus, you know, this, I mean, this is, these are hard words,

00:47:43.920 but Jesus said, hate your mother, hate your brother, hate your father, like, and come follow 0.94

00:47:48.040 me. And in other words, like I have to be, no, I have to be number one in your life. And, and so you

00:47:55.940 have to ask yourself, is this, is my attending this, this, this gay wedding, is that glorifying

00:48:03.300 to God? And is my presence there showing support for this? And again, it's not about, yes, you can

00:48:12.500 go to, to dinner, to, to the dinner with them or whatever, but to go to the union, to the wedding,

00:48:19.280 quote unquote, um, I think is, is, is not a good idea for a Christian to do. I think it's, 0.99

00:48:25.340 it's damaging because you're, you're sending the wrong signal. You're, you're basically saying

00:48:29.580 like, I'm affirming this as well with all these other people, I'm affirming this union.

00:48:34.180 Yeah. So that's, that's dangerous. And then with the pronoun, preferred pronouns, it's funny that

00:48:38.800 you asked me this question because I, I try to stay out of that, but, um,

00:48:45.320 Well, you don't, you don't have to, you're, you don't have to answer that question if you don't want

00:48:49.500 to. I just thought that you might have an interesting perspective, even though I know transgender 1.00

00:48:53.460 and homosexuality is not the same thing, but as someone who was evangelized to, and had that good

00:48:59.260 mixture of truth and love, in your opinion, what is the mixture of truth and love there?

00:49:05.340 I mean, it's hard because kind of in, in principle, I would say, you know, don't use preferred pronouns

00:49:13.920 because you're just, you're adding to the chaos and the confusion of the world. And so you're just,

00:49:19.640 you're just, you're just not, you're not helping in any way. You're not helping bring truth, salt

00:49:25.480 and light. You're not, you're not bringing truth into a situation by using preferred pronouns.

00:49:30.740 So in principle, I'm opposed to that. Um, and I also think it's just postmodern gibberish and,

00:49:36.580 you know, it's just like Derrida and Foucault are just winning, you know, because, 0.99

00:49:40.940 yeah, because people are, are falling for this, they're falling for this stupid deconstructed lie 0.99

00:49:47.740 of, you know, Oh, gender's not real. And Simone de Beauvoir. Yeah. Yeah. There is no gender, 0.99

00:49:54.780 you know, it's, there's no, there's, there's not binary sex. There's just kind of fluid gender and

00:50:00.320 you can choose whatever you want. So I think, I think it's, um, important to, to be kind of clear

00:50:09.680 on that to the culture as a Christian and, and not, not equivocate, not waver on it because

00:50:16.660 the culture already is so, and even Christians in the church are already so confused about it. So

00:50:24.120 I think it's important to be clear on that. However, that said in, in any given situation,

00:50:32.840 it depends on, you know, if I'm talking to somebody who is transgender, I, or I'm not going 0.99

00:50:40.660 to be, I'm not going to go out of my way to be cruel to them. So I'm not going to like call them

00:50:46.260 Joe if their, you know, name is Christine, you know, like I'm not going to, and I'm not going to

00:50:51.080 call them he when, when they present or appear as, as a woman. So it's just, I, it just depends. I

00:51:00.380 I think it depends on the situation and I think you need wisdom and, and I would pray about that,

00:51:05.420 but in general, but in principle, yeah, I think just the, the, this whole pronoun gender stuff

00:51:13.640 is so demonic that we need to be, be firm on it and clear about it, but then also love people.

00:51:22.440 Well, I do think that there is a difference in talking about something or someone and talking

00:51:33.540 to someone and you don't want to lie to them. I think that you could simultaneously say to someone,

00:51:40.540 Hey, you know, I love you. I want to be your friend, but here's where I stand on this. Like

00:51:47.220 you are a man, you're a woman, whatever it is, I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. If you

00:51:51.880 want me to call you Sally, I'll call you Sally, but here's where I stand. Here is the truth.

00:51:56.580 So I think it is possible to, I know that nuance is a word that is very overused nowadays, sometimes

00:52:02.540 to excuse people for just confusion. But I do think in interaction with someone and in conversation

00:52:10.620 with someone, there is some nuance, but I'm with you definitely on the principle. Absolutely. I'm not

00:52:16.980 going to use the preferred pronouns. If I were writing an article, if I were talking about a

00:52:21.640 story, like a man competing against women in sports, um, I'm not going to add to that confusion by using

00:52:28.220 the improper preferred pronoun, but it can get a little bit complicated, um, with people. Um, okay,

00:52:35.440 here's the, there's many things I could, I want to ask you, but here's one thing that I have a really

00:52:41.480 hard time with personally, and that's first Corinthians five 11. Now I'm writing to you not

00:52:46.980 to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother, if he is guilt. So a fellow Christian,

00:52:51.640 if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler, 0.99

00:52:56.840 not even to eat with such a one. Now, a lot of people have friends who profess to be Christians 0.97

00:53:01.920 who are gay or who are greedy, whatever it is. And I'm not sure how often we actually implement 1.00

00:53:09.040 this biblical rule. I mean, what is your take on that? What would your advice be to Christians who

00:53:14.760 are kind of struggling with this? Well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go against Paul. That's

00:53:20.880 for sure. Um, so, I mean, yeah, I mean, those words, he said, those words that you just read are,

00:53:28.000 they're, they're harsh and they, they seem harsh in our culture and they sound hard, but, um, yeah,

00:53:34.460 if someone is professing to be a Christian yet they're living a life, like, for example, they're,

00:53:41.240 they're, they're, they're living a life of, of homosexual behavior and they're living that life 1.00

00:53:46.440 and identifying as gay. And, uh, I think, I, I mean, I, I think I would do what Paul says and, 0.74

00:53:54.980 you know, because in first, here's the thing, you know, and there is, this is all over the New

00:54:00.040 Testament, but, and I'll just read in first John, um, this is what John has to say. And he says in

00:54:09.280 John three, first John three, he says, no one who abides in Christ keeps on sinning. No one who keeps

00:54:15.080 on sinning has either seen him or knowing, known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the

00:54:20.160 devil for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. And then lastly, he says, no one born

00:54:24.820 of God makes a practice. In other words, continues in unrepentant sin. So no one born of God makes a

00:54:32.900 practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born

00:54:37.880 of God. So, and so if I, if I meet someone who professes Christianity and, but then, you know,

00:54:47.480 goes to a gay affirming church or is gay and lives that life fully, then I treat them as a Gentile, 1.00

00:54:54.100 as Paul would say, I treat them as a non-believer. And so, uh, yeah, I, uh, I don't, I'm trying to

00:55:02.180 think if I, if I do, I don't, I don't, I really don't hang out with people who, who are doing that,

00:55:08.840 who are in that situation. So I guess, and just by kind of default, I don't associate with people

00:55:14.660 who are doing that. Yeah. I think that's, um, a difficult area for people who again are told that

00:55:22.700 love is unconditional affirmation, but you made such a great point earlier that the most loving

00:55:27.500 thing that we can do is really agree with God and agree with God in what he says is good and right

00:55:34.000 and true. Um, and there is a way to exemplify that truth and love. And as you pointed out earlier,

00:55:41.160 Jesus is the perfect example of that. Now I do want to say to people that Jesus was the perfect

00:55:46.360 example of the embodiment of, of grace and truth. And we are also told that Stephen was described as

00:55:53.720 that full of grace and truth. We know how both of them ended up. So being full of grace and truth

00:56:00.980 does not mean that the culture is going to love you, that the person that you're talking to is

00:56:05.620 going to respond well, that you're going to be accepted by the world. Actually, if you look at

00:56:10.040 the life of Stephen, um, you might get metaphorically stoned, canceled, whatever, um, for being full of

00:56:18.580 grace and truth. And so realize that the outcome or the response is not indicative of your, of whether

00:56:26.700 or not your obedience is right. The indication of whether or not your obedience is right is if it's

00:56:33.080 biblical. Yeah. And you know, Jesus, I'm just trying to find the Sermon on the Mount. Uh, but Jesus

00:56:39.620 said, yeah, Jesus says, um, blessed are you blessed for those who are persecuted for righteousness sake

00:56:46.300 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you. And this is, I mean, this is like, and I'm sure

00:56:52.180 you get this. I get this all the time. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and

00:56:57.480 utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account, rejoice and be glad for your reward is great

00:57:04.820 in heaven for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And then, you know, Jesus says

00:57:10.180 they're, they're going to hate you because they hated me first. And so, yeah, I take great comfort in

00:57:14.500 that, that our master, our King suffered, he suffered, you know, the worst kind of, of mistreatment

00:57:23.140 and persecution. And so when, and, and Paul's, what's the verse counted all joy brothers. Is that

00:57:31.220 Peter or Paul, Peter, Paul, or Mary? Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just like, I, and one of James,

00:57:39.920 who is it? I think it's actually James, James. Okay. Okay. Sorry.

00:57:44.180 Um, but I, you know, one of my favorite verses, I don't like to choose favorite verses, but one of

00:57:54.320 the verses that really resonates with me and has always resonated with me since I became a Christian

00:57:59.240 is when Paul says, I count everything as lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ

00:58:04.560 Jesus, my Lord. Now I, I've lost a lot of friends. Like I've lost, I lost my closest, closest friends

00:58:11.960 from, from, uh, uh, St. Mark's and Hockett. So the, I had, when I was at Jesuit, most of my friends

00:58:18.980 were St. Mark's and Hockett people and they were my roommates in LA. Like we were all best, best,

00:58:26.520 best, best friends since high school. And I lost those friends. I lost my career. But again,

00:58:33.060 just like Paul, you know, Paul, this is another thing about this issue is it's, it's so we're so

00:58:41.480 in this kind of, uh, obviously if you, if you've read the rise and triumph of the modern self, we're

00:58:45.480 in this expressive individualistic kind of period in history. And if you're, you know, if you're not

00:58:54.240 living your authentic life or being true to yourself, then somehow you're not, you know,

00:58:59.660 that there's something wrong with that. But I just find that, um, I kind of, I just lost my train of

00:59:07.300 thought. Wait, where was I going? That's okay. The rise and triumph of the modern self, that's

00:59:11.360 Carl Truman. And we're kind of told that if you're not authentically being yourself at all times,

00:59:15.920 then you're not going to be fulfilled. You're not going to be happy and all of that. And you,

00:59:19.280 but you lost all of these friends. And yeah. So what I was going to say is Paul, Paul,

00:59:23.600 we kind of live in this time where we're just like, we look at ourselves in our lives and we

00:59:29.740 want happiness. We want, we want all these things. And it's like, Paul, if you look at his life,

00:59:34.860 he was shipwrecked and beaten and, and, uh, he was jailed. And, but all he cared about was

00:59:41.920 running around the Mediterranean, planting churches, spreading the gospel. And that's all he cared about.

00:59:48.560 It wasn't, his life wasn't, he was, we're purchased. We are not our own. We were bought

00:59:54.020 with a price. And so our life is not our own. And so that, that's the, that's the, the struggle

00:59:59.600 with, you know, with being a Christian is this is not, we, we are no longer, we don't own ourselves.

01:00:07.820 Christ owns us now. And so I just looked at Paul and I think of, you know, what he went through.

01:00:12.640 And I'm just like, my life is, you know, my, my life is a cakewalk compared to what Paul had to

01:00:18.680 deal with. And so, uh, I think we need to kind of remember and go back to the word of God and

01:00:24.700 remember, you know, all the, the, the people who, you know, all the apostles were, were martyred,

01:00:30.700 except John, who was sunbathing on Patmos and writing revelation. Yeah. But, um, but yeah,

01:00:37.440 we have to look back and look about the early church and the martyrs of the early church and

01:00:42.120 how persecuted Christians were in the first century by Nero and others. And so, yeah, so it's,

01:00:49.680 it's not, we kind of are so internally focused right now in our culture and it's so toxic and we,

01:00:56.760 we need to look outward and look upward really. Yes, absolutely. Could not agree more. I am so

01:01:03.480 thankful that you took the time to come on and share your story. I actually had

01:01:06.880 a bunch of other questions to ask you about things that are currently going on, uh, in culture that

01:01:11.800 you've been talking about on your podcast, but I was just so invested in your story. And I just knew

01:01:16.000 as you were talking that this was going to really benefit the people that need to hear it. So

01:01:19.620 thank you for once again, sharing your story with us and for answering some questions that I know

01:01:24.320 aren't, aren't always easy to answer, but that a lot of Christians are wrestling with and, um,

01:01:29.900 you lent us your wisdom into those. And so I'm very grateful. Can you tell everyone where they can find

01:01:34.840 you where they can buy your book and all that good stuff? Oh yeah. Um, you can buy a change of

01:01:40.140 affection on any Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever, anywhere really. And, uh, and you can

01:01:46.800 find me on YouTube, but on the Becca cook show, or it's on any kind of a podcast platform as well,

01:01:53.620 or becca cook.com becca cook.com is my website. So you can go there if you need.

01:01:59.340 Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

01:02:01.040 Thank you, Ali. I appreciate it.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - March 15, 2022

Ep 582 ｜ How to Share the Gospel with LGBTQ People ｜ Guest： Becket Cook

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript