Ep 582 ｜ How to Share the Gospel with LGBTQ People ｜ Guest： Becket Cook
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Words per Minute
177.15698
Summary
Becky Cook is the host of The Beckett Cook Show and author of A Change in Affection, a book about his conversion from an actively gay lifestyle to an obedient Christian lifestyle. In this episode, we talk about the process of coming out to God and how God's grace and love changed his life.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.
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All right, guys, we've got a very fun show for you today. We are talking to Beckett Cook.
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He is the host of the Beckett Cook Show. He wrote a book called A Change in Affection a few years ago,
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and that is about his conversion to Christianity and going from an actively gay lifestyle
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to now an obedient Christian lifestyle. And so we're going to talk about that. I'm sure that
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there's plenty in the conversation that some people will find very controversial. But for
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the majority of my audience, you are just going to be incredibly encouraged. The power and the
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grace of God in redeeming people's lives. I just love hearing people's testimony. There is such
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power in a testimony, and it just reminds you of the sweetness and the goodness of the gospel,
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the faithfulness of God, the relentlessness of God to pursue whomever he is going to pursue in
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whatever ways he is going to pursue them. I love that about God, and I love hearing individual
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stories of that redemption in their own lives. And so you're going to be so encouraged. And then
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we're also going to ask him some questions towards the end of the conversation.
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We're going to ask him, okay, do you attend the gay wedding of a friend as a Christian? Do you use
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preferred pronouns as a Christian? What about that verse in 1 Corinthians that says that we're not even
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supposed to associate with someone who calls themselves a Christian and is sexually immoral
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in any way or who is an idolater? It lists a whole host of sins. What does that actually look like? Do
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we exclude them from our lives? How do we love these people in a way that is truthful but also gracious?
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We're going to get into all of that. And before we do, I do want to say that yesterday I was in
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Louisiana. Go listen to yesterday's episode that we had already had pre-recorded with a professor.
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You're going to love it. You're going to absolutely love yesterday's conversation if
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you haven't listened to it. Another possibly controversial conversation because we talk
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about race in America and we talk about the claim of systemic racism. And he has some
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non-mainstream views about that that are very interesting. And I know you're going to learn
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a lot from it. But yesterday we were in Louisiana. I went to Monroe, Louisiana. And I was on the
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Unashamed podcast with Phil Robertson and with Al Robertson. And you're going to love that episode
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whenever it comes out. I don't know when it's going to come out. But then also I interviewed them
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for my show. That episode will come out at a later day. But I just love them so much. I know a lot of
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you guys love them. I posted yesterday on Instagram that I was going to Louisiana. A lot of you were
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asking me what I was doing in your state. I was there very quickly. Flew there yesterday morning.
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And then, guys, my flight got canceled. I got to the airport and my flight home got canceled. And I had
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to drive home last night. And that was kind of crazy. But I'm here. I'm safe and sound to bring
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this content to you today. So, yeah, lots to look forward to. Lots to look forward to in Alleyland
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for different interviews coming out. But let's get to this interview. Without further ado, here is our
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new friend, Beckett Cook. Beckett, thank you so much for joining us. I've been wanting to have you
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on for a really long time. So I'm so glad this worked out. Can you tell everyone who may not know
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who you are and what you do? Thank you, Allie. Yeah, I live in Los Angeles. That's where I am
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right now. And for many, many years, I was a production designer in Hollywood. But when my
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book came out in 2019, I kind of lost. I kind of got canceled in Hollywood because my book is pretty
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scandalous. So now I'm pretty much in full-time ministry. I kind of travel around the country,
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speak at conferences, at churches. And I'm writing another book. And I also have a YouTube show
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called The Beckett Cook Show. So that all keeps me pretty busy. And I went to seminary in 2014
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at Talbot School of Theology at Biola. So I knew God was kind of pulling me out of the production
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design world and into more kind of full-time ministry. So that's where I am now.
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And for people who have no idea, they're coming into this just having heard of Beckett Cook,
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what was your book about? Why was it so scandalous?
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Scandal. So it's called A Change of Affection. And my affections dramatically changed 12 years ago.
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So when I was very young, I don't know, in elementary school, probably fifth or sixth grade,
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I started to realize that I was attracted to the same sex, which was a really strange phenomenon to
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happen when you're a kid in Dallas, Texas, when it's very much taboo to be gay, or even to have
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those feelings. And so I kind of wrestled with that and sort of had this like external life where I was
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friends and popular with people in school. But then on the inside, I was dealing with this kind of
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struggle and didn't really know how to process it. And then in high school, that's when kind of the
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dam broke. Because I ended up becoming best friends with someone who at Jesuit who was going
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through the same thing. And we started going out in Dallas to gay bar. I mean, I was like 14 and 15
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years old, going to gay bars in Cedar Springs, Oklahoma, and going to the Star Club and all these
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parents, did they have any idea what was going on?
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No, well, no, not really, because I was the youngest of eight kids. And so by the time my
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parents got to me, they were just very hands off. They're like, just do whatever. We don't even know
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what you're doing. And you know, I was making straight A's in school. So they didn't really,
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they didn't really pay attention, for better or for worse, I think for worse. But so I had this kind
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of leeway to move about the cabin freely. And, and so, and so I explored gay culture in high school,
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I was, you know, pretty precocious. And, and then the same thing, I went away to college. And the
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same thing happened, I became best friends with somebody who was dealing with this, you know,
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same sex attraction, we came out to each other. And again, I had like a confidant and a, you know,
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partner in crime and in college, where we could go out and no one really knew. And in high school
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and in college, I was in the closet. And I never thought being gay was kind of a permanent thing
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in my life. I thought it was just gonna, I thought, you know, it was weird. It was like, this is what
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I'm feeling now. I'm just going to go with these desires. But eventually, I'm gonna, you know, have a
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wife and kids. But so I never really thought of it. Sorry to interrupt, but you were Catholic,
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because you, you went to Jesuit, you said, which for those who don't know, that's a Catholic school
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in Dallas. So you were raised Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic. Yes. Gotcha.
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I know. Yeah, big Catholic family. And so, and then, and then after college, that's when after college,
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I moved to Tokyo with my best friend. And that's when it became really my identity. Because while I
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was in Japan, while I was in Tokyo, my roommate invited his friend from Texas to come visit us.
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And his friend and I ended up falling in love. And I can't say his name, but it was a guy. And,
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and we ended up falling in love. And that's when it was the first time I'd ever had that experience.
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And that's when it was like, okay, this is definitely who I am. This is my identity.
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It's immutable. This is the way this is my life now. And I came out to everyone, I came out to my
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family, my friends. And, and, and, and that's when I just kind of that's when it became my full,
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full identity. Yeah. And what does that feel like the feeling of going from okay, this is just kind of
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maybe a fleeting feeling that I have, or this is a phase that I'm going through. You said in high
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school, and maybe some in college, you thought, oh, I'm still gonna grow up and get married to a
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woman and have kids. What was that transition like? And why do you think that transition happened from
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these are just some feelings that I have that may or may not be fleeting to okay, this is now
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permanently, immutably who I am. Was it the falling in love that made you feel that way? Or were there
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some other things going on that kind of made you say, nope, this is this is me?
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I mean, a part of it was the culture around me, because it was becoming more and more accepted
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in the culture. But it the tipping point really was the falling in love aspect, because that's,
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that's when I just felt like, okay, this is, I'm all in. And I, you know, I didn't,
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I no longer cared about what people thought of me, or I no longer cared about this, this,
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because it was still there was kind of stigma attached to it in the early 90s. And so,
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so I but I didn't care. And I was just like, I told everyone, and I told my, you know, my family,
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they, they, my parents, reaction was actually really lovely. And again, part of it was because
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I was the youngest of eight, but they were just very calm, they and they believe they believed
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that homosexual behavior was sinful. I mean, they were very clear on that. But they were super
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loving to me, in spite of that. And, and they didn't really, you know, there were no kind of
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dramatic scenes of like throwing me out of the house, or, you know, quoting scripture to me,
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because they already knew that what they knew that I knew what they believed. So there was no need for
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that. So they were just over the years, they were so, so sweet, and lovely to me, which I really,
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really appreciate. But, but and then I and then after that, after, you know, coming back from Tokyo,
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I moved to Los Angeles in 1993. And that's when that's when it kind of really, really got shifted
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into high gear. Because when I got to LA, I got into this, you know, really fun group of friends all
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from the East Coast Ivy League schools, like really smart, ambitious. It was there were straight
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people, gay people. And though all those friends now run Hollywood, they literally create all the
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content that the world sees now, which is crazy. And, and so once I got into this group of friends,
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I mean, and I was in Los Angeles, I just felt like so liberated and free. And like, this is,
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no, this is my life. And I cycled through five really serious relationships with guys,
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live in, we live together. And so, and I, and I, we, you know, we did everything in Hollywood,
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because all of my friends were in the business, they were aspiring writers, actors, directors,
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producers. We all wanted the same things. We wanted to make it big in Hollywood, which
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they all did in a big, big way. And we all wanted to have these kind of extraordinary experiences,
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which we were having in spades, because we were, we were always invited to the, you know,
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movie premieres every week, and to the Oscars, the Emmys, the Golden Globes, and the after parties,
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and the Vanity Fair parties, and all these, I was always kind of just invited to things like I was,
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I would end up at Ariana Huffington's house all the time, you know, for cocktails, or
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having dinner with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep, you know, and just all these things. So I was
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having these great experiences. And our other thing was, we all wanted to find the one true love.
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And so we were always kind of on the on the search for that. And, and, you know, I, as I said,
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every time I would get into a relationship with a guy, I'd be like, Okay, this is the one. Yeah,
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he's gonna save me. This is like, you know, this is amazing. And of course, it would end in two years.
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It was always like a shelf life of two years on these relationships.
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Yeah, I think a lot of people can relate to that. And when you say that, you know,
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you thought that this person was going to save you, what I mean, what do you mean by that? What
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were some of those feelings? Why do you think and maybe this is just how everyone feels when they're
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searching for the one. But why do you think you felt like, Oh, my gosh, I have to find the one it's a
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form of like, romantic salvation that I'm seeking? What do you think that was in you that
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I think it was a longing for purpose, really, because I had no I knew, I knew that God was
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never an option for me because I was gay. So I was very clear.
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Okay, so you were not you didn't even identify as a Christian or a Catholic at this point?
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No, and even growing up in the Catholic Church, I never, I never connected with it at all. I just
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thought it was kind of theater, you know, and, and I, I never felt any connection really to God
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growing up. And so. So yeah, I think I was looking for meaning and purpose in my life, because I that
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then the only way without God, the only kind of purpose you can get is either through your career
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or through a relationship. I mean, or I don't I mean, there may be other ways, but those are the
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main ways. And so that's kind of what I threw myself into was my career and and was in these
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relationships. And I thought and especially in the relationships, I thought the guy would, you know,
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somehow, really give my life this like purpose and meaning and, and it felt that way, you know,
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at least in the beginning of those relationships, it felt like I had some sort of purpose. But then
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it would, of course, vanish over time. Yeah. So you are in what stage of your life? Are you in 20s,
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30s still in my 20s? Yeah. Okay. So that's when you were living in LA with this great group of people,
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you were going through a series of really serious relationships. And at what point did you realize,
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okay, these people that I'm it sounds like also, in addition to like wanting purpose,
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you really wanted to be known, we all want that intimacy, you want to be fully known by someone
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and fully loved for everything you are. I think that is a desire that all of us have. And maybe your
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disconnect from God was also causing you to kind of seek that intimacy and that fully knownness
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in someone else. But when did you realize, okay, I've tried that several times, and it's not actually
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giving me the thing that I'm looking for. It's not actually fulfilling me.
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Well, you know, in these kind of relationships, especially in gay male, I think, especially in gay
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male relationships, there's this, it's not unconditional love. It's always quid pro quo.
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And it's always kind of like, as long as I have a great career, and you have great abs,
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like we're good to go. But like, the second you slip, like, you know, a lot of my friends won Oscars
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and, and Golden Globes and all these things. And it's like, suddenly, like, if my friend Dustin Lance
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Black won the Oscar for the movie Milk, then suddenly he's like, okay, like he, you know,
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the quid pro quo changes. So, so it was always that kind of pressure. I, when I was in these
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relationships, I always felt like I was walking on eggshells. And that, you know, just the one wrong
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move, and it would be over. And that was actually the case. And there was a lot of infidelity, a lot of,
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you know, lying and drama. And so I think, you know, after the fifth relationship, I just kind
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of was like, I mean, I was already starting to feel this in general in my life. I was just kind
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of like, is that all there is to a fire? Is that all there is? You know, I was getting to that point
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of the law of diminishing returns were setting in. And I just felt like, you know, I've been doing
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this for so long. I've been going to, you know, I would go to parties that I would go to Prince's
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house, you know, for a private concert in his backyard and tell all these things. And, and I
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would go to fashion week in New York and Paris. And I thought, you know, for a long time, those shiny
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objects sustain me and, and my friends sustain me because they were so fun and interesting and,
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and smart. And, but after, you know, cause even since high school, after like 20 years of,
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doing these kinds of things and purchasing these kinds of shiny objects, you just start
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to, I, in my life, I just started to feel like I can't do this anymore. Like this isn't
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going to sustain me for the rest of my life. I don't know what, I don't know what I'm going
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So tell me what it was like hearing the gospel, maybe for the first time or in a real way,
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the first time or understanding it and tell me about becoming a Christian when and how and
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Yeah, well, it started in Paris in March of 2009. I was at fashion week. I used to go to fashion
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weeks a lot in New York and Paris. And so I was at fashion week. I went to a bunch of the
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runway shows. I went to a bunch and they have after parties and I was at an Stella McCartney's
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after party and everyone from the fashion world was there. Kanye was there. It was like, and
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people were dancing and drinking champagne. And it was at this nightclub in the middle of
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Paris called Regine. And I just, that's when it really hit me that, that I just felt overwhelmed
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with emptiness. And I just kind of like, felt like this cannot be my life. I like, this was
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fun. This was a great, you know, I had a great time for a long time, but this cannot be my
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life anymore. And I, I ghosted the party. I went back to my, my, the apartment I had rented
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and I was kind of up all night in a panic about my future. And then I, you know, I get back to LA
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a couple of days later and then cut to six months later. I'm with my best friend who is
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gay. And, and we, you know, we used to do the kind of, we used to hang out all the time,
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like every, almost every night and every weekend. And, and on the weekends we would go to brunch
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in Venice. We would go shopping in West Hollywood or Beverly Hills, which is gay church brunch
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and shopping. And then we would go to this coffee shop in Silver Lake and hang out. Cause it
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was like, it was kind of, you know, it was always kind of active and crowded and fun people,
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interesting people and friends we knew. So we were there that day and, and, uh, we were
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chatting and we know suddenly we, we look over and the table next to us is a group of young
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people with Bible, physical Bibles on the table. And we, I had never seen a Bible in public
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in LA in my life. So it was a, it was a shocking sight. And my friend was, was shocked too. We were,
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we were both like, what is going on? Like, this is bizarre, especially in Silver Lake,
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which is a very kind of progressive enclave of LA. And so we were half repulsed and half intrigued by
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them. And so, and why were you, why do you think you felt some feelings of repulsion?
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Because it was just like, because historically for, you know, for, for us, evangelical Christians,
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and we just, I assume they were just evangelical Christians. You could kind of tell. So I,
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evangelical Christians were always the enemy in, in gay culture. And so, so that was, it was kind of
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residual revolt. It wasn't really, I wasn't like super revolted by them, but it was just kind of
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that residual, like, Ooh, like Christians. But then I was kind of like, wait a minute. I, I don't
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really know what my life is about. Maybe they have some answers. And so it's like a Christian's
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fantasy come true. I turned to them and I'm like, Hey, um, are you guys Christians? And what's the
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gospel? No way. By that time in my life, I had, I had really, by that time in my life, I was a
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practical atheist. Like I, I honestly believed that the Bible was an ancient myth, like any other
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ancient myth. I, I, I believe God was a fairy tale. I didn't, I didn't believe in it. And, but when I saw
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them, it just, I just felt like, you know, what have I got to lose? Cause of, because of that night
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in Paris six months before, I just thought, you know, maybe I just want to talk to them and see
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what they say. And so I, I honestly didn't even remember like what the, the, what the gospel was
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really. I mean, I kind of knew obviously vaguely, but I just needed to hear it. So I turned to them
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and I just said, you know, what do you guys believe? Because I grew up Roman Catholic. I don't
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really remember. And they said, well, we go to an evangelical church in Hollywood on sunset. And,
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and, you know, they told me, they told me basically the gospel and this is what we believe. And,
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and of course I get to the $64,000 question and I say, what is your church in Hollywood believe about
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homosexuality? And they said, well, we believe it's a sin. And I, I, at the, in that moment, I really,
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I wasn't surprised by that, by that answer. And I really appreciated how honest they were.
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And that they didn't try to dodge the question and, you know, kind of obvious, like, I was glad
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that they just said it, you know, just outright. And, and so in that moment, I thought, okay,
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what if I've, what if God does exist? I mean, there's a slim chance he does exist. And what if
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homosexual behavior is wrong, is sinful? And what if I've built my entire life on a false foundation
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and I don't know it like that? That's a possibility. And so, so I was receptive. I was
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open to hearing that from them. Whereas like a couple of years before five years, 10 years before
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that, I would have been like, you guys are crazy. You need help. You need therapy. Um, but I was open
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to hearing that. And then they invited me to their church the following Sunday called reality LA.
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And, um, which I, I still attend. And I, so I, I had no idea what I was getting into because I had
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never been to an evangelical church. I didn't know what it was like. I didn't know what it looked like.
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I was used to stained glass windows and smoke and bells.
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Yeah. Totally different than the Catholic church.
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Yeah. I was used to vestments and hats and stuff. And so I show up, I didn't actually,
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I didn't know if I was going to go because, you know, it's a big deal to kind of, it was like
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betraying your, your community. Like, you know, if, if anyone ever found out besides my best friend
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who was there, like I, it was just would have been very weird and awkward.
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What was his reaction? Was he kind of like, what are you doing?
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He didn't, um, he was intrigued as well. And, and, and he didn't really know that I was going to,
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that I was going to follow through and actually go to the service the following Sunday. And I didn't
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either because I spent the whole week kind of going back and forth. Like, am I going to do this?
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Is it so weird if I go and it could be humiliating and what if nothing happens?
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Were you nervous about people being judgmental or right away castigating you? That wasn't the fear?
00:24:14.260
No, not at all. No, I just thought, you know, what if not my biggest fear was what if nothing
00:24:20.420
happens? And then I'm just still stuck in this kind of no man's land of like no purpose in my life
00:24:25.600
and no meaning. And so I, I ended up that Sunday morning, I woke up and I just was like, I guess
00:24:33.360
I'm going to do this. And I drove to the, the, it meets in a high school auditorium and LA public high
00:24:40.960
school, which is funny. And, um, and so I walked in and it was just kind of this really plain
00:24:46.980
auditorium and the worship band was playing. And I, I remember thinking when I walked in,
00:24:53.260
I just was like, Oh, Christian music. That's so weird. I forgot that existed. Gross. But then I was
00:24:59.000
like, wait a minute, it's actually nice. Like it's, and so I, I, and then I found a seat. I,
00:25:03.920
I sat near the front and by myself and the pastor comes out and he starts preaching on Romans chapter
00:25:11.980
seven. And as he's preaching for an hour, just things start to shift in me. It's crazy. As he
00:25:20.420
was preaching, I was hanging on every word and I was riveted to the sermon. Cause I was like,
00:25:26.480
wait a minute, everything he's saying is true. And I don't know why I feel that way right now.
00:25:32.660
What what's going on. And, and I just was, I didn't want him to stop preaching. Cause I was
00:25:38.060
like, this is amazing. Like this is the gospel. This, it, it turned everything. I, I believe I
00:25:43.100
thought religion was on its head. And I was like, this is good news. This is crazy. And so after the
00:25:51.080
sermon, he, he left, he, before he left the stage, he said, there's people on the side of the church
00:25:57.360
on the prayer ministry. And if you need prayer for anything, you can go ask. So that was another
00:26:02.520
kind of moment of like, do I go over there? If I do, it's kind of, people might be watching me
00:26:07.120
and it's weird, but I was like, whatever I'm here. So I went over to this guy and I said on the prayer
00:26:14.000
team. And I said, you know, I don't know what I believe, but I'm here. And again, it's a Christian
00:26:19.120
fantasy come true. And he says, well, can I pray for you? I'm like, yes. And he, you know,
00:26:26.340
lays his hands on me and he starts praying and it just felt so loving. And I was like,
00:26:33.980
why, how does this random straight guy love me so much and care about me so much? And,
00:26:39.080
and it was just felt very powerful. And then I thanked him. I went back to my seat and there's
00:26:45.320
another 25 minutes of worship music playing. So the lights are kind of dim. It's a room. I go to a
00:26:52.660
Reformed church, but so it's, this sounds kind of wacky, but the lights are dim. But, um, and so I,
00:26:58.760
uh, as soon as I sat to everyone else was standing and singing and worshiping, I sit down and all of
00:27:07.020
a sudden the Holy spirit just flood, like, like overwhelms me. And in that moment, God revealed
00:27:17.560
himself to me. And I'll never forget. I mean, in my mind, he said, God said, I'm God. Jesus is my
00:27:22.900
son. Heaven is real. Hell is real. The Bible is true. Welcome to my kingdom. And I was like,
00:27:28.540
and it's like Isaiah when he's in the temple and he sees the holiness of God and he comes undone.
00:27:34.500
That's what happened to, I just started bawling and bawling. Like I was crying harder than I'd ever
00:27:40.600
cried in my life, except as an infant. But it, because I was just born again, I was, I was kind of an
00:27:46.700
infant. And then, um, so I, I was, was retching for the next 25 minutes. And then I, I got in my
00:27:56.740
car and I drove home. I don't even know how I made it home. Cause I was in such a state and
00:28:01.540
I got into bed to take a nap, uh, because I was so overwhelmed. And, uh, and it happened again.
00:28:08.640
God's like, it was like Moses in the cleft of the rock and God passes by with his glory. God was like,
00:28:13.240
let me show you some more of my glory. And it just was like this huge dose of God's presence again.
00:28:21.040
And I was like, Whoa. And I just burst into tears again, jumped out of my bed and in the middle of
00:28:26.960
my bedroom, I was like, God, you have my whole life. I'm yours. I'm done. And, and I knew in that
00:28:34.140
moment that homosexual behavior was a sin. I knew it was wrong. I, I knew it. Yeah. I knew immediately.
00:28:40.540
I knew it wasn't who my identity anymore. I knew that dating guys was no longer a part
00:28:45.040
of my future, but I didn't care because I just met Jesus. And I was like, uh, I'm going
00:28:48.720
to go with that guy. Good riddance to that life.
00:28:51.060
So this wasn't, this wasn't a product of, you know, a process over time of people really
00:28:57.140
teaching you, Hey, here's why we believe homosexuality is wrong. Here's what the Bible
00:29:01.800
says. At that point, you didn't even really know what the Bible said about it. Right. Besides
00:29:05.860
what the Christians had told you originally when you saw them, I knew, I mean, I was, I was aware
00:29:12.220
of what the Bible, because I, you know, I grew up in the Catholic church and we, I knew what the
00:29:17.440
Bible had to say about homosexual behavior, but, but it was so God had so much grace on me that day.
00:29:23.500
First of all, the fact that he, that all happened the very first time I went to a church
00:29:28.060
was remarkable. And, uh, and he had so much grace and he made it so clear. Just, it was like
00:29:34.900
an instant. I just knew that this is not who I am. This is not my life. And, and, and good. And
00:29:41.780
I was like, and I still, to this day am in shock about, I mean, that was 12 years ago, September,
00:29:47.140
that was September 20th, 2009. And I'm still stunned by it, but I have zero desire to go back to Egypt
00:29:57.060
and to go back into bondage. I have no desire. Like I, I'm so like, I'm so thrilled that God
00:30:05.020
rescued me out of that darkness and out of that life, because that life, what the media, you know,
00:30:11.900
what the media doesn't show obviously is that life is very dark, uh, especially for gay men. And
00:30:19.560
so I, I just, there's just so much like, it's like the glue, the glue that holds that community
00:30:29.920
together. There's three, I think there's three things that, that hold it together. And this may,
00:30:35.980
I mean, this may, I mean, obviously there are exceptions. I'm just generalizing, but, uh, alcohol,
00:30:42.000
drugs, and sex. Like that's what really binds that community together. And at least when I was going,
00:30:49.240
growing up and going through that, that whole thing. So I was thrilled to be out of that bondage
00:30:56.820
because it really is, it's such a, um, I mean, so much goes on behind the scenes that people don't
00:31:04.820
talk about and just like at parties and there's, there's, you know, people in bedrooms doing crazy
00:31:10.740
things. And it's just, it's just a dark world. And I'm so happy to be out of that world and into
00:31:18.720
God's marvelous light. I mean, it's just so, it's so, I can't even express how, how amazing,
00:31:25.300
obviously, you know, how amazing it is, but it's just amazing to be in Christ.
00:31:34.400
There's a couple of things that I want to highlight and get your thoughts on.
00:31:38.000
One thing that I noticed when you were describing the reaction of your parents and then describing,
00:31:42.840
um, the reaction and the response, the reception that you got at the church that you first visited,
00:31:48.360
you talked about their sweetness, about their kindness and about just the love that they showed
00:31:55.380
you. A lot of Christians who know that homosexuality is a sin. We've talked about that several times on
00:32:01.260
this podcast and what the Bible says about that. They have a tough time though, balancing or knowing
00:32:07.060
what it looks like to love someone and also speak the truth to them. Because one of the things that
00:32:12.760
you said was very formative and that you appreciated was that the group of Christians that you saw
00:32:18.420
blatantly said, yeah, we think homosexuality is a sin. A lot of times today we hear a whole lot of
00:32:23.580
caveats and well, you know, we believe God loves everyone. We won't talk about that yet, but you
00:32:28.980
appreciated both the sweetness and the love of people who received you, but also the truth that those
00:32:34.320
Christians told you. Um, so can you talk a little bit more about that for Christians who are wondering
00:32:39.300
how do I love, but also speak the truth in love to people in my life who are gay or who identify as
00:32:46.640
transgender, whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, Jesus was a master at this, obviously. And if you, and I've
00:32:52.860
done this a couple of times where I'll read all four gospels through in one sitting and I'll, I'll pay
00:32:58.480
attention, just I'll focus on how Jesus interacts with people. And he never compromises truth or
00:33:06.380
grace. He's, he always, he's obviously the, he balances grace and truth perfectly. And, you know,
00:33:12.960
when he, yes, of course he, he eats with, and, uh, he, he spends times with tax collectors and sinners
00:33:20.420
and prostitutes, but he always, like, even with, uh, Levi, when he calls Levi to come follow him,
00:33:27.100
Levi leaves his tax booth and basically that, and then there's a, then he has a celebration at his
00:33:33.200
home. And that's, that celebration is a sign of repentance that, that he's left that behind. He's
00:33:38.940
left that life behind. And even the woman at the well, the, the woman in Samaria, like, you know,
00:33:44.320
Jesus was so loving to her and so kind to her, but he called her out on her sin. And, and I mean,
00:33:52.720
that's, and I, so I, in, in Leviticus 19, actually, if I can just read this for a second, um,
00:34:00.160
it, this is about, you know, loving your neighbor. And, uh, it says it's Leviticus 19 verse 17. It
00:34:09.440
says, you shall not hate your, your brother and your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your
00:34:14.080
neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. And so loving your neighbor, in other words, means
00:34:20.960
telling them the truth, telling your neighbor the truth. And so that's what that it's, it's people
00:34:29.460
kind of think like, Oh, it's not very loving to say these things and to say homosexual behavior is a
00:34:34.540
sin. And, but it's actually the most loving thing you can do because, because you're, if you don't,
00:34:40.800
if you, if you're gay affirming, you're aiding and abetting someone's eternal destruction. And so
00:34:47.900
that, that's the most unloving thing you can possibly do. And so I, I find it to, that's why
00:34:53.600
I was so appreciative of how these, these young Christians just told me the truth, because that's,
00:34:58.800
that's actually loving. And they were, you know, they weren't, they weren't cruel about it or mean
00:35:04.880
about it. They were just very honest and very, they just said it very simply. And so, um, yeah,
00:35:10.760
I think, I think you can, Jesus, you can't check your, you can't check your convictions at the door
00:35:17.580
when, when you're, you know, talking to people or when you're evangelizing, you of course be
00:35:24.260
gracious and loving, but you, you have to tell the truth. And I think, I think that's, we're losing a
00:35:29.160
lot because of this, this issue is so, you know, controversial now in culture, we're losing a lot of
00:35:36.740
that even pastors are kind of afraid to talk about this issue. Yeah. And that's kind of,
00:35:42.680
that kind of leads to my next question, because it seems like for Christians, when compromise happens,
00:35:49.620
when deconstruction happens, um, when they do kind of start embracing more worldly ideologies and dogma
00:35:57.420
and trying to kind of somehow mix that in with Christianity, it does seem like homosexuality is
00:36:03.260
the first thing. Like with Jen Hatmaker, that's one example. We've kind of seen that evolution over
00:36:08.960
the past few years. I remember, and I think it was 2015 when she talked about, you know, she doesn't
00:36:14.160
think, uh, being gay is a sin. We've seen that with several other, what you would call, you know,
00:36:18.720
professing Christian influencers. And it seems like for people who call themselves progressive
00:36:24.160
Christians, that's the main thing. There might be some other things that they think is wrong with
00:36:28.700
traditional conservative Christianity, but that seems to be the main sticking point and the main
00:36:34.860
reason why some people deconstruct, why some people become so-called progressive Christians.
00:36:42.420
Why do you think that is? And what do you, what do you think about that? What do you think about
00:36:47.300
Christians who say, well, you know, I believe in Jesus and the gospel and all of that, but I also
00:36:53.660
Well, I, I always think about, so when I was in high school at Jesuit, everyone at Jesuit,
00:37:01.060
everyone at Ursuline, this, you know, this was 30 years ago, they believed there was, it was just
00:37:07.560
unequivocal. They believed that homosexuality was, was wrong. Homosexual behavior was wrong.
00:37:12.460
It just, we didn't have to say anything. It was just understood. Now, some of those very same people
00:37:18.020
from my high school on Facebook, there, there, there's a lot of them are gay affirming. And so,
00:37:23.640
I, my question is why, what's happened over the last 30 years? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what's
00:37:28.680
happened. And obviously it's the culture and, and we live in a very specific time and place in history
00:37:35.940
and culture in, in the United States. And there's been, you know, for the last, ever since Stonewall
00:37:42.640
in from 1969 until now, there's been this concerted effort to, to obviously normalize homosexual behavior
00:37:50.640
and, and, and all kinds of media and TV shows, Will and Grace and, uh, you know, Queer Eye and all
00:37:57.000
these TV shows. And those, that, those shows have a massive impact on people's understanding of this
00:38:06.640
issue. And they, of course, when, when you see movies like, you know, Brokeback Mountain or all
00:38:12.420
these other kinds of movies, it just, it, it continues to, it's such a storytelling is so
00:38:20.240
persuasive and it's persuading an entire generation, entire culture that this behavior is not only
00:38:29.140
good and righteous, but it's also holy. It's become, it's gone from a sin to a sacrament over the last,
00:38:36.240
you know, 50 years. And so we have to understand how powerful the culture is. And we have to
00:38:43.540
understand that we are in the middle of it and we have to be aware of what is, what's affecting our
00:38:50.380
belief systems. What's affecting our worldview. Is it the word of God or is it the culture? Is it
00:38:57.400
Netflix? Is it, so you have to be aware of that because it's, again, the culture is so obviously right
00:39:04.800
now is so powerful and just the constant onslaught of media that is pro LGBTQ, you know, it's just,
00:39:14.200
it's just, it's unbelievable really at this point. And, and so we have to be aware of what,
00:39:20.360
what's affecting us. And that, that's why I always, I always tell people like, if you've watched an hour
00:39:24.860
of Netflix, you've just been lied to implicitly or explicitly, and now you need to read the Bible
00:39:30.080
for an hour to be renewed in your mind, you need the truth. And so I think that's, that's the trap.
00:39:37.380
And, and by the way, Satan, Satan is thrilled about this. He's thrilled that he's got an entire
00:39:44.200
generation deceived about this issue. And he's laughing all the way to the bank. He's winning
00:39:50.860
this battle. He's not going to win the war. We know that, but he's winning this battle. And,
00:39:55.740
you know, he's been lying from the beginning. He lied in the guard. He twisted God's word in the
00:39:59.600
beginning to Eve. And he said, did God really say you can't do that? And he's doing the exact same
00:40:04.700
thing with this issue. He's saying, did God really say homosexual behavior is a sin? I mean,
00:40:09.680
it's really just whispered in the Bible, right? And it's not in the, in the, the, the, the passages
00:40:16.400
that talk about it, you know, they're not really clear and, oh, it could be cultural distance or it
00:40:21.120
could be something else. It's only talking about pedophilia. It's only talking about rape. Yeah.
00:40:25.740
There, there's something that we've talked about a lot on this show. And it's an alliteration that
00:40:32.400
I like to use when it comes to the definition of marriage and holy sexuality, because you do hear
00:40:37.740
those arguments a lot that, well, the Bible only prohibits it here. And really it means this,
00:40:42.940
but as Christians, we don't just read the Bible saying, what does God say not to do? But we also
00:40:48.160
look at the Bible and say, well, what does God say to do? It's not a mentality for the Christian,
00:40:53.000
for the one who has submitted to Christ of what can I get away with? The mentality is how can I
00:40:58.140
deny myself and glorify God the most? And so we also look at what God actually affirms. It's not
00:41:03.680
just that he says homosexuality is wrong, although that would be enough if he did, but he also affirms
00:41:09.160
that marriage is between a man and a woman. So that's rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout
00:41:15.700
scripture. It's repeated by Jesus himself, specifically in Matthew 19. And it is reflective
00:41:22.420
of the gospel because it is representative of Christ and the church, as we see in Ephesians 5.
00:41:29.620
So it's not just a physical bond. The definition of male and female is actually representative
00:41:34.960
of Christ in the church. That means it not only has gospel significance, it has eternal significance.
00:41:41.500
And it's just the hubris of the culture of human beings and of professing Christians to say that
00:41:49.400
we can redefine that, that thing that is representative of something so huge and so
00:41:56.720
eternal, and it's fine. It's fine. We can redefine this big, huge, significant thing, and it's okay.
00:42:04.380
And it really does, just like all sin, like you said, go back to the garden, and it also goes back to
00:42:08.240
pride. That we think we are more loving than God. We think we are wiser than God. We're more
00:42:13.280
compassionate and empathetic than God. We know truth better than God. That's really what it is.
00:42:18.540
It's all about exchanging the God of scripture for the God of self.
00:42:23.500
Yeah. Speaking of the exchanges, in Romans 1, you know, there's the three exchanges that Paul talks
00:42:29.680
about that we exchange the truth for a lie. And it's interesting because what does Paul use
00:42:36.560
as the illustration at the end of that section, what does Paul use as the illustration for
00:42:42.620
suppressing the truth? Homosexual behavior. And why does he do that? Because it's patently obvious
00:42:50.520
anatomically, physiologically, that two men or two women do not go together. And that's why Paul used,
00:42:57.560
I think if Paul were around today, he may use the example of abortion as suppressing the truth.
00:43:03.900
Because, you know, even when I was living as a gay man, I was pro-choice. But it's like, I knew,
00:43:12.180
deep down, I knew that that was a baby in the womb. But because all my friends were pro-choice,
00:43:17.920
and I just took that on. And that's just actively suppressing the truth. But anyway, yeah. So the Bible
00:43:26.760
says nothing positive about homosexual behavior. It's all negative. And it's so, I mean, as you said,
00:43:36.740
just from Genesis to Revelation, it's not just those six passages that specifically address it. It's the
00:43:44.360
entire scope of the story of redemption. And the thing is, the Bible is not a handbook on homosexuality.
00:43:52.400
It's the greatest love story ever told. But it's so clear about this issue. And Paul says,
00:43:59.940
do not be deceived. You know, men who practice homosexuality will not enter the kingdom of God.
00:44:05.040
It's just, it's so abundantly clear. And so after I got saved that day, after I came to faith,
00:44:13.720
faith. And when I read the Bible, I mean, I mean, I was just voraciously reading the Bible. I was
00:44:19.840
obsessed with it. And I still am. But I, but every word just jumped off the page. And I was like,
00:44:25.940
whoa, like, this is crazy. I can't believe that I'm a part of this story of redemption. And,
00:44:31.640
and in the passages that talk about sexuality, I just was like, they completely rang true to me.
00:44:38.340
And I just knew that this is the truth. This is the truth.
00:44:42.780
Wow. Okay. I've got, building on that, I've got three specific kind of advice questions to ask you.
00:44:50.460
One thing we talked about, why a lot of Christians, obviously, we know why non-Christians kind of give
00:44:57.140
in on this issue. But a lot of Christians give in on this issue is not, yes, because of the culture.
00:45:02.520
And I guess one of the messages that culture tells us that political activists, which are ruthless,
00:45:06.880
journalists tell us, is that if we do not affirm someone's so-called sexual or gender identity,
00:45:13.180
then they are going to die. They're going to kill themselves. It is like condoning violence. It's
00:45:17.000
always that. It's never like, well, you know, this kind of hurts someone's feelings. And it's always
00:45:21.980
straight to, you're condoning their death. You're condoning violence against them if you happen to
00:45:26.140
disagree with that. Well, no one wants to be on that side. Of course, no one wants to. So I think
00:45:30.260
that's one pressure. And I'm wondering if you have some advice specifically when it comes to
00:45:36.260
well, I don't know if I'm trying to split up these questions or bring them together. One thing that
00:45:41.580
people ask me a lot that I've tried to answer, but I want to hear your perspective. Should you use
00:45:46.580
the preferred pronouns of someone, even though you know you're not affirming transgenderism?
00:45:51.900
And the second question is, in this whole truth and love realm, should you go to a gay person's
00:46:06.620
Well, let's start with the gay wedding thing. So when I, right after I kind of, I think it was
00:46:12.600
like six months to a year after I got saved, my agents at William Morris invited me. Well,
00:46:19.600
one of the agents was gay, is gay, and he was getting married to a man. And we were out at dinner,
00:46:27.440
and he, the woman agent, she turned to me and she said, Beckett, you're going to so-and-so's wedding,
00:46:35.460
right? And I said, of course I'm going. Because in that moment, I just felt like, oh, like I'm
00:46:40.220
supposed to be loving. I should do this, right? Because I was a brand, I was a baby Christian.
00:46:44.840
I didn't really know what to do. And so I ended up going to the wedding and it was a huge mistake
00:46:53.220
because once I got there, I realized, wait a minute, all these people here are celebrating
00:47:00.540
sin. Like they're celebrating this union between two men and I can't be a part of this.
00:47:08.240
Like, so, um, so my, my thing, my thing with, with gay weddings is I absolutely will not go ever
00:47:17.220
again. I won't put myself through that again. And I, I, I just think, I mean, it's a, it's a tough
00:47:25.840
question for, for parents. Like, do you go and show your, you know, your love to your child while at
00:47:32.700
the same time, making it clear to them that you, you disagree with, with what's happening.
00:47:38.780
But I find that, you know, Jesus, you know, this, I mean, this is, these are hard words,
00:47:43.920
but Jesus said, hate your mother, hate your brother, hate your father, like, and come follow
00:47:48.040
me. And in other words, like I have to be, no, I have to be number one in your life. And, and so you
00:47:55.940
have to ask yourself, is this, is my attending this, this, this gay wedding, is that glorifying
00:48:03.300
to God? And is my presence there showing support for this? And again, it's not about, yes, you can
00:48:12.500
go to, to dinner, to, to the dinner with them or whatever, but to go to the union, to the wedding,
00:48:19.280
quote unquote, um, I think is, is, is not a good idea for a Christian to do. I think it's,
00:48:25.340
it's damaging because you're, you're sending the wrong signal. You're, you're basically saying
00:48:29.580
like, I'm affirming this as well with all these other people, I'm affirming this union.
00:48:34.180
Yeah. So that's, that's dangerous. And then with the pronoun, preferred pronouns, it's funny that
00:48:38.800
you asked me this question because I, I try to stay out of that, but, um,
00:48:45.320
Well, you don't, you don't have to, you're, you don't have to answer that question if you don't want
00:48:49.500
to. I just thought that you might have an interesting perspective, even though I know transgender
00:48:53.460
and homosexuality is not the same thing, but as someone who was evangelized to, and had that good
00:48:59.260
mixture of truth and love, in your opinion, what is the mixture of truth and love there?
00:49:05.340
I mean, it's hard because kind of in, in principle, I would say, you know, don't use preferred pronouns
00:49:13.920
because you're just, you're adding to the chaos and the confusion of the world. And so you're just,
00:49:19.640
you're just, you're just not, you're not helping in any way. You're not helping bring truth, salt
00:49:25.480
and light. You're not, you're not bringing truth into a situation by using preferred pronouns.
00:49:30.740
So in principle, I'm opposed to that. Um, and I also think it's just postmodern gibberish and,
00:49:36.580
you know, it's just like Derrida and Foucault are just winning, you know, because,
00:49:40.940
yeah, because people are, are falling for this, they're falling for this stupid deconstructed lie
00:49:47.740
of, you know, Oh, gender's not real. And Simone de Beauvoir. Yeah. Yeah. There is no gender,
00:49:54.780
you know, it's, there's no, there's, there's not binary sex. There's just kind of fluid gender and
00:50:00.320
you can choose whatever you want. So I think, I think it's, um, important to, to be kind of clear
00:50:09.680
on that to the culture as a Christian and, and not, not equivocate, not waver on it because
00:50:16.660
the culture already is so, and even Christians in the church are already so confused about it. So
00:50:24.120
I think it's important to be clear on that. However, that said in, in any given situation,
00:50:32.840
it depends on, you know, if I'm talking to somebody who is transgender, I, or I'm not going
00:50:40.660
to be, I'm not going to go out of my way to be cruel to them. So I'm not going to like call them
00:50:46.260
Joe if their, you know, name is Christine, you know, like I'm not going to, and I'm not going to
00:50:51.080
call them he when, when they present or appear as, as a woman. So it's just, I, it just depends. I
00:51:00.380
I think it depends on the situation and I think you need wisdom and, and I would pray about that,
00:51:05.420
but in general, but in principle, yeah, I think just the, the, this whole pronoun gender stuff
00:51:13.640
is so demonic that we need to be, be firm on it and clear about it, but then also love people.
00:51:22.440
Well, I do think that there is a difference in talking about something or someone and talking
00:51:33.540
to someone and you don't want to lie to them. I think that you could simultaneously say to someone,
00:51:40.540
Hey, you know, I love you. I want to be your friend, but here's where I stand on this. Like
00:51:47.220
you are a man, you're a woman, whatever it is, I'm going to be as kind to you as possible. If you
00:51:51.880
want me to call you Sally, I'll call you Sally, but here's where I stand. Here is the truth.
00:51:56.580
So I think it is possible to, I know that nuance is a word that is very overused nowadays, sometimes
00:52:02.540
to excuse people for just confusion. But I do think in interaction with someone and in conversation
00:52:10.620
with someone, there is some nuance, but I'm with you definitely on the principle. Absolutely. I'm not
00:52:16.980
going to use the preferred pronouns. If I were writing an article, if I were talking about a
00:52:21.640
story, like a man competing against women in sports, um, I'm not going to add to that confusion by using
00:52:28.220
the improper preferred pronoun, but it can get a little bit complicated, um, with people. Um, okay,
00:52:35.440
here's the, there's many things I could, I want to ask you, but here's one thing that I have a really
00:52:41.480
hard time with personally, and that's first Corinthians five 11. Now I'm writing to you not
00:52:46.980
to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother, if he is guilt. So a fellow Christian,
00:52:51.640
if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler,
00:52:56.840
not even to eat with such a one. Now, a lot of people have friends who profess to be Christians
00:53:01.920
who are gay or who are greedy, whatever it is. And I'm not sure how often we actually implement
00:53:09.040
this biblical rule. I mean, what is your take on that? What would your advice be to Christians who
00:53:14.760
are kind of struggling with this? Well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to go against Paul. That's
00:53:20.880
for sure. Um, so, I mean, yeah, I mean, those words, he said, those words that you just read are,
00:53:28.000
they're, they're harsh and they, they seem harsh in our culture and they sound hard, but, um, yeah,
00:53:34.460
if someone is professing to be a Christian yet they're living a life, like, for example, they're,
00:53:41.240
they're, they're, they're living a life of, of homosexual behavior and they're living that life
00:53:46.440
and identifying as gay. And, uh, I think, I, I mean, I, I think I would do what Paul says and,
00:53:54.980
you know, because in first, here's the thing, you know, and there is, this is all over the New
00:54:00.040
Testament, but, and I'll just read in first John, um, this is what John has to say. And he says in
00:54:09.280
John three, first John three, he says, no one who abides in Christ keeps on sinning. No one who keeps
00:54:15.080
on sinning has either seen him or knowing, known him. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the
00:54:20.160
devil for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. And then lastly, he says, no one born
00:54:24.820
of God makes a practice. In other words, continues in unrepentant sin. So no one born of God makes a
00:54:32.900
practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born
00:54:37.880
of God. So, and so if I, if I meet someone who professes Christianity and, but then, you know,
00:54:47.480
goes to a gay affirming church or is gay and lives that life fully, then I treat them as a Gentile,
00:54:54.100
as Paul would say, I treat them as a non-believer. And so, uh, yeah, I, uh, I don't, I'm trying to
00:55:02.180
think if I, if I do, I don't, I don't, I really don't hang out with people who, who are doing that,
00:55:08.840
who are in that situation. So I guess, and just by kind of default, I don't associate with people
00:55:14.660
who are doing that. Yeah. I think that's, um, a difficult area for people who again are told that
00:55:22.700
love is unconditional affirmation, but you made such a great point earlier that the most loving
00:55:27.500
thing that we can do is really agree with God and agree with God in what he says is good and right
00:55:34.000
and true. Um, and there is a way to exemplify that truth and love. And as you pointed out earlier,
00:55:41.160
Jesus is the perfect example of that. Now I do want to say to people that Jesus was the perfect
00:55:46.360
example of the embodiment of, of grace and truth. And we are also told that Stephen was described as
00:55:53.720
that full of grace and truth. We know how both of them ended up. So being full of grace and truth
00:56:00.980
does not mean that the culture is going to love you, that the person that you're talking to is
00:56:05.620
going to respond well, that you're going to be accepted by the world. Actually, if you look at
00:56:10.040
the life of Stephen, um, you might get metaphorically stoned, canceled, whatever, um, for being full of
00:56:18.580
grace and truth. And so realize that the outcome or the response is not indicative of your, of whether
00:56:26.700
or not your obedience is right. The indication of whether or not your obedience is right is if it's
00:56:33.080
biblical. Yeah. And you know, Jesus, I'm just trying to find the Sermon on the Mount. Uh, but Jesus
00:56:39.620
said, yeah, Jesus says, um, blessed are you blessed for those who are persecuted for righteousness sake
00:56:46.300
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you. And this is, I mean, this is like, and I'm sure
00:56:52.180
you get this. I get this all the time. Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and
00:56:57.480
utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account, rejoice and be glad for your reward is great
00:57:04.820
in heaven for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. And then, you know, Jesus says
00:57:10.180
they're, they're going to hate you because they hated me first. And so, yeah, I take great comfort in
00:57:14.500
that, that our master, our King suffered, he suffered, you know, the worst kind of, of mistreatment
00:57:23.140
and persecution. And so when, and, and Paul's, what's the verse counted all joy brothers. Is that
00:57:31.220
Peter or Paul, Peter, Paul, or Mary? Um, but yeah, I mean, it's just like, I, and one of James,
00:57:39.920
who is it? I think it's actually James, James. Okay. Okay. Sorry.
00:57:44.180
Um, but I, you know, one of my favorite verses, I don't like to choose favorite verses, but one of
00:57:54.320
the verses that really resonates with me and has always resonated with me since I became a Christian
00:57:59.240
is when Paul says, I count everything as lost because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ
00:58:04.560
Jesus, my Lord. Now I, I've lost a lot of friends. Like I've lost, I lost my closest, closest friends
00:58:11.960
from, from, uh, uh, St. Mark's and Hockett. So the, I had, when I was at Jesuit, most of my friends
00:58:18.980
were St. Mark's and Hockett people and they were my roommates in LA. Like we were all best, best,
00:58:26.520
best, best friends since high school. And I lost those friends. I lost my career. But again,
00:58:33.060
just like Paul, you know, Paul, this is another thing about this issue is it's, it's so we're so
00:58:41.480
in this kind of, uh, obviously if you, if you've read the rise and triumph of the modern self, we're
00:58:45.480
in this expressive individualistic kind of period in history. And if you're, you know, if you're not
00:58:54.240
living your authentic life or being true to yourself, then somehow you're not, you know,
00:58:59.660
that there's something wrong with that. But I just find that, um, I kind of, I just lost my train of
00:59:07.300
thought. Wait, where was I going? That's okay. The rise and triumph of the modern self, that's
00:59:11.360
Carl Truman. And we're kind of told that if you're not authentically being yourself at all times,
00:59:15.920
then you're not going to be fulfilled. You're not going to be happy and all of that. And you,
00:59:19.280
but you lost all of these friends. And yeah. So what I was going to say is Paul, Paul,
00:59:23.600
we kind of live in this time where we're just like, we look at ourselves in our lives and we
00:59:29.740
want happiness. We want, we want all these things. And it's like, Paul, if you look at his life,
00:59:34.860
he was shipwrecked and beaten and, and, uh, he was jailed. And, but all he cared about was
00:59:41.920
running around the Mediterranean, planting churches, spreading the gospel. And that's all he cared about.
00:59:48.560
It wasn't, his life wasn't, he was, we're purchased. We are not our own. We were bought
00:59:54.020
with a price. And so our life is not our own. And so that, that's the, that's the, the struggle
00:59:59.600
with, you know, with being a Christian is this is not, we, we are no longer, we don't own ourselves.
01:00:07.820
Christ owns us now. And so I just looked at Paul and I think of, you know, what he went through.
01:00:12.640
And I'm just like, my life is, you know, my, my life is a cakewalk compared to what Paul had to
01:00:18.680
deal with. And so, uh, I think we need to kind of remember and go back to the word of God and
01:00:24.700
remember, you know, all the, the, the people who, you know, all the apostles were, were martyred,
01:00:30.700
except John, who was sunbathing on Patmos and writing revelation. Yeah. But, um, but yeah,
01:00:37.440
we have to look back and look about the early church and the martyrs of the early church and
01:00:42.120
how persecuted Christians were in the first century by Nero and others. And so, yeah, so it's,
01:00:49.680
it's not, we kind of are so internally focused right now in our culture and it's so toxic and we,
01:00:56.760
we need to look outward and look upward really. Yes, absolutely. Could not agree more. I am so
01:01:03.480
thankful that you took the time to come on and share your story. I actually had
01:01:06.880
a bunch of other questions to ask you about things that are currently going on, uh, in culture that
01:01:11.800
you've been talking about on your podcast, but I was just so invested in your story. And I just knew
01:01:16.000
as you were talking that this was going to really benefit the people that need to hear it. So
01:01:19.620
thank you for once again, sharing your story with us and for answering some questions that I know
01:01:24.320
aren't, aren't always easy to answer, but that a lot of Christians are wrestling with and, um,
01:01:29.900
you lent us your wisdom into those. And so I'm very grateful. Can you tell everyone where they can find
01:01:34.840
you where they can buy your book and all that good stuff? Oh yeah. Um, you can buy a change of
01:01:40.140
affection on any Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever, anywhere really. And, uh, and you can
01:01:46.800
find me on YouTube, but on the Becca cook show, or it's on any kind of a podcast platform as well,
01:01:53.620
or becca cook.com becca cook.com is my website. So you can go there if you need.