Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 594 ｜ The Pro-Choice Movement Takes Its Dying Breath ｜ Guest： Lila Rose

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:00:05.220 at Good Ranchers. That's American meat delivered right to your front door. 1.00

00:00:08.400 Go to GoodRanchers.com slash Allie. That's GoodRanchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:21.700 All right, today we are going to talk to our friend Lila Rose. She is a pro-life activist, 0.92

00:00:28.600 pro-life advocate. She is the president of the pro-life organization, Live Action.

00:00:34.020 She wrote a book called Fighting for Life. She has been doing this work for about 15 years now.

00:00:40.340 She has been on the front lines fighting against abortion. And we are going to talk about this

00:00:45.260 horrifying and truly shocking story coming out of Washington, D.C. about five babies, the remains

00:00:52.320 of whom were found in a Washington, D.C. apartment, but they come from an abortion clinic in Washington,

00:00:56.980 D.C. And we'll kind of clear up some confusion about that. And these babies all were in the second

00:01:04.020 and third trimester. And some of them look to have been murdered using illegal means. Of course,

00:01:09.720 all abortion is brutal and horrific. But the particular methods used, it looks like,

00:01:16.000 on some of these babies could have been partial birth abortions, which are actually banned by federal

00:01:22.940 law. The graphic images of these sweet, precious babies, these tiny image bearers of God, it's truly

00:01:32.660 physically painful to look at. Lila tweeted last week the images of these babies that were found in

00:01:40.320 one of the babies. And this is graphic. And there's going to be graphic language throughout

00:01:44.780 this podcast. We've, you know, we've done this several times where we've described to you what

00:01:49.040 abortion is, what the procedure is, the science, the medical terminology that describes what is

00:01:57.200 actually going on in abortion. So just be ready for that. I think it is so important to be clear

00:02:02.440 on this subject so we can really see just how barbaric this is. But one of these pictures,

00:02:08.660 it's a baby girl, and she is looking at the camera. One of her eyes is open. It looks like she's

00:02:16.000 peering into the camera right into your soul. Just a precious, almost perfectly intact baby girl.

00:02:21.300 But the back of her skull is crushed. And it looks like she has endured a partial birth abortion where

00:02:28.420 her brain was actually sucked out of the back of her head while she was being partially delivered.

00:02:35.300 That is abortion. Whether it's through that method or another method, every time you are murdering

00:02:41.760 a defenseless, innocent human being with a soul. This is not nuanced. There are not caveats.

00:02:50.020 There is no logical or theologically solid way to be personally pro-life but politically pro-choice.

00:02:59.000 You can't be holistically pro-life without first being fundamentally anti-abortion. And you cannot

00:03:05.320 be anti-abortion without, at the very least, bare minimum recognizing that a child, a human being

00:03:13.720 inside the womb should have a legal recognition of their humanity, a legal right not to be murdered.

00:03:22.420 We have no business calling ourselves pro-life if we can't even start there. Yes, we should take care

00:03:28.240 of women and children. Yes, we should care about children outside the womb. Yes, we can debate the

00:03:32.660 different policies that could create a culture of life. Absolutely. But that does not preclude us

00:03:39.580 from being against the slaughter of unborn children. That's what we're going to talk about

00:03:43.580 today. We're going to talk about this specific story and the hashtag that Lila and Live Action

00:03:50.120 started, Justice for the Five. If we care about justice, we should care about justice for them.

00:03:54.500 She's going to talk about exactly what happened here, some of the problems and the corruption

00:03:59.540 in this particular D.C. clinic. We're also going to talk about the Christian responsibility to be

00:04:05.060 courageous in the face of this kind of evil and how the history of the church compels us as Christians

00:04:10.600 today to stand up for the most vulnerable, namely children, how the gospel compels us to do so.

00:04:17.500 And we are also going to talk about the other legislation that's happening across the country,

00:04:21.420 particularly in blue states, as we look to the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade this summer.

00:04:30.000 May the Lord let it be so. And she is going to do, Lila is going to do what she does best,

00:04:35.540 which is not only inform and educate, but also inspire you and encourage you. She ends this

00:04:42.420 conversation with so much hope and so much optimism. So yes, it's going to be heartbreaking to hear some

00:04:47.960 of the things that we're talking about because abortion is heartbreaking. It should make us sad.

00:04:52.160 It should make us really angry. It should get us riled up. It should be hard to listen to.

00:04:59.020 It should be hard to see those images. That's because God has made our hearts soft and he

00:05:05.200 has given us the grace of compassion to care about these things. And so allow yourself to hear what we're

00:05:12.740 talking about. Allow yourself to go look at those images, which I don't think that we are actually

00:05:17.080 able to show on YouTube, but they are on Twitter for now. So go look at those images, rest in that

00:05:23.240 pain, like rest in that heartache and let that heartache compel you to do something. And that is,

00:05:30.020 that's what Lila is going to encourage us in today. By the end of this, by the end of this conversation,

00:05:36.780 you are going to, yes, be sad that abortion exists, but you are also going to feel

00:05:41.040 so empowered and so filled with bravery and boldness to use your voice on behalf of the

00:05:50.960 voiceless. That is what we are doing when we are talking about abortion. For all the people

00:05:55.200 and all the Christians that you follow that talk about social justice, talk about caring for the

00:06:00.200 most vulnerable and the least of these, if they're not also talking about abortion, then I think that

00:06:06.260 you should ask them why. Sure, we don't have to talk about every news story all of the time.

00:06:11.380 That's true. But for the Christian who says that they stand for justice and they're silent on this, 1.00

00:06:16.680 I question, I question if they are motivated really by justice and an obedience to God, or if they are

00:06:22.080 just going along with the mainstream. The theme of this episode is almost every episode that we have

00:06:28.620 is that politics matter because policy matters because people matter. That is the relatable

00:06:34.100 alliteration that we repeat so much. Politics affects policy, policy affects people, and people

00:06:40.180 matter. People matter.

00:06:44.260 Lila, thank you so much for joining us again. I want to talk to you about this big story that you

00:06:49.560 tweeted about a few days ago with the graphic images of the babies who had been aborted. These

00:06:55.620 babies' remains were found in a D.C. apartment. They come from a D.C. abortion clinic there. Can you just

00:07:02.180 give us the backstory of what happened and how these babies were discovered?

00:07:07.140 Sure. Well, there, first of all, appear to be a lot of misleading stories in mainstream media about

00:07:12.220 this case right now, so it's important to set the record straight. The core of the story is that the

00:07:17.100 remains of five children, some of them nearly full-term, according to the experts that have

00:07:22.740 analyzed the documentation of their remains, the bodies of five children are now in the possession of

00:07:28.200 the D.C. police and the D.C. medical examiner's office. And their children, three of them in

00:07:33.420 particular, their bodies and the trauma on their bodies are consistent with potentially illegal

00:07:39.260 abortions or consistent with the babies being born alive and then being killed. And so these would be

00:07:45.500 federal crimes as well as possible D.C. of Columbia crimes, District of Columbia crimes. And so it's

00:07:51.440 absolutely essential. And what live action is calling on the D.C. police to do and the D.C. medical

00:07:56.120 examiner's office to do is to investigate. They may have in their possession the evidence of

00:08:01.280 federal crimes being committed against these children. And they, as of Friday, Ali, said that

00:08:06.500 they hadn't yet done an autopsy. And that was four days ago. No autopsy had been completed yet on the

00:08:11.780 children. An autopsy is necessary to ascertain whether or not the crimes were committed against

00:08:16.820 them. So that's really the core of the story. I can get into all the surrounding details about how this

00:08:21.660 happened and why this is happening. But the core is that there are five children who need justice.

00:08:26.720 Their bodies are with the D.C. medical examiner's office. He can do his job and do an examination,

00:08:32.460 a pathological examination of the bodies. He has not done that yet. And until that's done,

00:08:37.540 justice can't be had. And that that is really the the urgent item at hand right now.

00:08:42.240 Yes. And I want to talk more about that core. But just for people who are trying to piece this

00:08:46.860 together in their minds and they're wondering, hang on, how exactly were these bodies discovered?

00:08:51.820 Can you give us those surrounding details? Because I understand the remains were found in the

00:08:57.880 apartment of an anti-abortion pro-life activist, possibly handed over by a whistleblower. But I

00:09:04.520 think some people are kind of curious or confused since there has been so much misleading reporting

00:09:09.380 about this. So can you fill us in? Yes. And I think what's also really confusing for people is

00:09:14.980 one of the activists at the heart of the story on the same day that she was in the process of

00:09:20.420 handing the remains over to D.C. police. So she was doing that voluntarily. On that same day,

00:09:26.020 the FBI shows up apparently at her home to indict her for criminal for charges against the

00:09:32.840 indict her for the FACE Act. So basically, this federal law having to do with activism she did with

00:09:37.620 several others two years ago. So it's this really unprecedented and strange coincidence.

00:09:44.140 These are two totally disconnected things that happened.

00:09:49.580 Yeah, exactly. And according to the activist, according to the activist's own public statements,

00:09:53.740 you know, they were given these remains by a whistleblower. And this happened. This has

00:09:58.740 happened in the pro-life movement before where whistleblowers associated with abortion clinics,

00:10:04.100 either a whistleblower gives over the remains of aborted children or the aborted children are

00:10:07.840 literally thrown away in the trash and the pro-lifers try to retrieve them to give them a proper

00:10:11.980 burial. So this has happened before in the decades of our movement. And this has been one of the acts

00:10:17.080 of mercy, really, that pro-lifers have done historically to try to give these children a

00:10:21.540 proper burial. But according to the activist, a whistleblower gives them the remains. They are

00:10:26.280 working with D.C. police to give over the remains of these five children because there may be federal

00:10:33.100 crimes committed against them or District of Columbia crimes because there are statutes in D.C.

00:10:38.700 against illegal abortions. And the backstory here, too, is really important. Cheser Santangelo

00:10:44.540 is the abortionist that committed these crimes against these children. He runs this D.C. abortion 0.70

00:10:50.080 clinic. He does late-term abortions. Live Action has investigated him in the past. And we have

00:10:55.300 documented him on undercover camera admitting that he would leave babies to die, admitting that he would

00:11:02.580 be willing to commit infanticide. He said it himself on undercover camera. And he also says that

00:11:08.180 the manner of how he kills these children is through cutting the umbilical cord. It's what 0.52

00:11:12.560 he claims on undercover camera, which according to, again, the medical experts, and now it's about a

00:11:18.220 dozen of them, have reviewed the documentation of their bodies, have said, actually, it looks like

00:11:23.040 one of them is a partial birth abortion, which would be illegal. This little baby girl's neck was 1.00

00:11:26.940 cut. Her brain was removed. One of the baby boys was born totally intact. So it looks like he might

00:11:33.340 have been born alive before being killed, maybe drowned. We're not sure. So it is crucial that D.C.

00:11:39.720 police and the D.C. medical examiner take action now. That's why Live Action is urging everyone

00:11:43.480 to call the D.C. medical examiner's office and say, do your investigation. Do an examination of

00:11:49.800 these bodies. Get a qualified pathologist in there and do an autopsy to find out how these children died

00:11:55.660 and then investigate Cheser Santangelo. He is, I believe, operating illegally in D.C.

00:12:00.900 and he's committing infanticide. And one more thing to add to that, Allie, is, you know, you can

00:12:06.360 actually type in D.C. Surgy Center on Google right now. If anyone's listening, you can do this. Type

00:12:12.500 in D.C. Surgy Center or Surgy Health D.C. on Google. Go to the Google review page for this business, for

00:12:19.600 this horrific business, late-term abortion business. You will find two Google reviews in the last year,

00:12:27.040 months apart, where the women indicate that their babies may have been born alive and express their

00:12:32.360 unhappiness with that fact. They're going in for abortions and they're saying, my little girl

00:12:36.820 couldn't be revived. You know, I had to deliver her at the hospital. Another woman saying that I don't 0.85

00:12:42.220 know if the baby was born alive. This abortionist is, I think, doing this prolifically. He is committing

00:12:48.640 abortions on viable babies. They are being born alive and then he's killing them. Whether he kills them 1.00

00:12:53.620 in or outside of the womb doesn't matter from a perspective of morality or human rights. But 0.98

00:12:57.080 unfortunately, our law is incoherent and it will only protect the born alive babies. But there still

00:13:02.420 is a law to protect the born alive babies. And this abortionist, I believe, is violating that law,

00:13:07.580 those laws regularly. So this is a hugely urgent story. Very important for people to get involved.

00:13:13.600 If people are listening and they want to get involved, you can go to our Instagram at liveaction

00:13:17.620 or liveaction.org, liveactionnews.org and get the phone number for the DC Medical Examiner's Office

00:13:23.360 and please call and express your concern and say, an autopsy must be properly performed on these

00:13:28.360 children to determine the manner and the timing of death. Because I think it could find that at least

00:13:33.300 one or two of them were born alive. And one of these babies, a baby girl, maybe 28 or 30 weeks old.

00:13:40.080 So, you know, old enough to survive outside the womb, this beautiful baby girl

00:13:43.100 was the victim of an illegal partial birth abortion. And I'm sorry for the graphic nature

00:13:47.960 of this. It's heartbreaking to even consider. But that means this little girl would have been

00:13:51.900 delivered partially halfway, delivered feet first, alive. And the abortionist would have cut her neck 1.00

00:13:59.480 alive and then suctioned out her brains, collapsing her skull and delivering her dead. And that would 1.00

00:14:05.460 have been a violation of the federal partial birth abortion ban act. So there's tremendously,

00:14:11.100 this is a tremendously significant story that lives and lives, future lives are at stake.

00:14:16.360 And that's why we're urging everyone to take action.

00:14:18.740 And it really makes you wonder if this is happening at this abortion clinic. And as you said,

00:14:24.820 you have gotten this particular abortionist on camera. I watched the video. It's on the live

00:14:30.120 action website saying, and you can tell he's kind of squirming, admitting what he does, that if a baby

00:14:35.820 is born alive, then he would do things not to help it, I think, was his particular language. And of

00:14:42.480 course, this is something that is not just kind of admitted behind closed doors. We had the governor

00:14:48.280 of Virginia just a couple years ago, say on radio, that if a baby survives an abortion, the mother and

00:14:55.540 the doctor would put the baby to the side and kind of decide what to do. And so that really makes you

00:15:00.780 wonder, how often is this happening that we don't know? As you mentioned, the partial birth abortion

00:15:06.780 ban went into place in the early 2000s. And so technically, the kind of abortion that you just

00:15:12.400 described, where the brain is suctioned out while the baby is still alive, being partially delivered,

00:15:18.480 is technically illegal. But I have my doubts that someone like Leroy Carhart, who, you know, has

00:15:26.840 talked about under giving testimony in court that he has performed this kind of abortion on living

00:15:35.280 babies several times. Kermit Gosnell, obviously, one of the most horrific cases. It just makes me

00:15:42.140 wonder if this is actually happening against federal law, very consistently, and we just happened to find

00:15:50.740 out one of many, many instances. Yeah. Allie, it's happening everywhere. I mean, listen, there are

00:15:57.900 10. I've been investigating the abortion industry for 15 years. Live Action's been researching it for

00:16:03.040 the last decade. There are there are tens of thousands of late term abortions at minimum happening 0.54

00:16:08.520 in our country every single year. In every single late term abortion, you have to take a viable baby

00:16:14.160 and you have to somehow deliver it, but make sure it's dead before it's delivered. The problem with

00:16:20.100 that is for the abortionist is if you're inducing labor in the woman, which is frequently done in 1.00

00:16:25.060 late term abortions, that baby may be born alive. Or depending how sloppy you are, how lazy you are,

00:16:31.100 depending on your methods, you might just let that baby be born alive and then either submerge it in

00:16:35.500 solution. And we have documentation at Live Action of abortion clinics who do late term abortions

00:16:40.340 admitting this is what they do. They take a born alive child that's viable that they're trying to

00:16:45.380 abort. They didn't kill it in utero because either, again, lazy or their method is different.

00:16:51.360 They do an injection. The injection misses the baby. Or sometimes the woman, because this takes 1.00

00:16:56.620 about the induction takes about two days. But hey, if you're like 30 weeks or farther along,

00:17:01.840 the woman might accidentally go into labor. Exactly. Labor is unpredictable. Right. Before the doctor 1.00

00:17:09.360 is able to go in there when he is scheduled to do so and kill the baby. So go on. 0.99

00:17:14.420 You're exactly right, Ali. And so we've even had undercover clinics admit on tape. And this is with

00:17:19.820 our inhuman investigation that we did in 2013. And since then, we've continued this investigation. So

00:17:24.520 it's been almost 10 years of this kind of investigative work. And they've admitted on tape that they would

00:17:29.000 take the baby and submerge it in a barrel or a bucket of solution to preserve the remains before they

00:17:34.900 hand them to a medical waste company, put them in solution, which would drown them at the same time

00:17:39.580 if the child is born alive. And that is my suspicion when I think that it's so necessary that the DC

00:17:44.760 examiner do his job and the DC police, that that may have happened to some of these babies, that they

00:17:49.380 were born alive. And in order to not have to deal with, you know, just screaming or, you know, letting

00:17:55.060 them just live on for maybe even days in the back room, they submerge them in the solution. I mean,

00:18:01.040 this has been admitted on tape by other abortion clinics. So this is a, you know, it is, it's

00:18:07.500 absolutely devastating to consider that this is happening. It's easier to say, oh, it doesn't happen. We

00:18:12.800 would never do that. That's impossible. But we know based on even public record, you know, you mentioned

00:18:18.200 Kermit Gosnell, he was killing born alive infants. It's a fact, it's a fact proven in a court of law in

00:18:23.880 Philadelphia. And he's in prison because of it. We know that this is this happens. We know it is reasonable

00:18:29.840 that it happens because late term abortion is a disgusting and deadly business. And it doesn't

00:18:35.900 always work to kill the baby in utero. Sometimes that baby is born alive. And that's why, by the

00:18:39.640 way, there is never a justification for abortion. And when, when, when advocates for abortion say,

00:18:45.000 well, late term abortion is sometimes necessary. That is a complete lie. It is a, it is a cruel lie

00:18:51.000 because those children, every single one of them could be born alive instead of dead. The birth still

00:18:56.740 needs to happen. Right. Let them be born alive. Give them a chance. That's what we say. Give them

00:19:02.080 a chance. Um, there are, you know, folks that would adopt them. There's long waiting lists of adoptive

00:19:07.140 couples looking for newborns. So, you know, there are safe haven laws in many safe haven laws. Exactly.

00:19:14.180 And, and, you know, looking at the political landscape right now, there are multiple states. And I think,

00:19:20.180 you know, you've been tracking this carefully on your show, Ali, there are multiple states that are

00:19:24.300 trying to pass laws to decriminalize any, any kind of abortion or even infanticide in the first few

00:19:32.300 days or months of the baby's life. They don't want any protection for these children. I'm talking

00:19:36.820 about California. I'm talking about Colorado. I'm talking about Maryland. I'm talking about New

00:19:40.740 Jersey states that are passing laws that say a woman can have an abortion for any reason up until

00:19:47.000 nine months. And even maybe in the perinatal period, which could be up to maybe 60 days up there to

00:19:52.100 the baby's birth. It's up to her and her doctor to decide what care the child gets or lack of care.

00:19:56.620 So presumably the child could be left to die. And, you know, again, people think, well, it would,

00:20:01.100 could never happen. It is happening. It's been documented to happen. And it is up to every one

00:20:05.920 of us to do something because this is the greatest human rights abuse that I think our planet has ever

00:20:10.820 seen is the sheer cruelty against infants, against prenatal infants, and the laws that are being

00:20:19.240 weaponized against them. Yep. There's a quote by R.C. Sproul. He's a reformed theologian. And he

00:20:26.520 often said when he was alive, if I know anything about the character of God over the 40 years that

00:20:33.360 I've been in ministry, it's that he hates abortion. And I think if there's anything that the Christian 0.99

00:20:39.740 knows about the God who made us in his image, who himself came in the form of a baby to become

00:20:46.080 our redemption, who, against the protestations of his disciples, welcomed the little children to

00:20:52.540 himself, who says in Psalm 139 that he knit us together purposely and specifically and lovingly

00:20:59.040 in our mother's wombs. If there is anything that we know about that God, the God who demanded the

00:21:04.700 death penalty for child sacrifice among Israel in the Old Testament, if there's anything that we know

00:21:11.640 about that God, it is that he hates abortion. That doesn't mean that he hates the women who have

00:21:17.600 had abortions, that there isn't grace and forgiveness and mercy and redemption for them because there is

00:21:22.020 just like there is for all of us. But it grieves me when I see Christians not allow their hearts to 1.00

00:21:29.140 break for this in the way that it breaks God's heart or angers God. That instead, I don't know if it's

00:21:35.700 just ideology or because, as you mentioned, it's so uncomfortable to really grapple with what this

00:21:41.540 is, they won't look at what actually happens in an abortion procedure in the first, second, and third

00:21:46.400 trimester. Which, by the way, just to mention, I know you and I are talking about late-term abortion,

00:21:50.840 but we agree abortion at any stage is a brutal procedure that is killing a human being with worth.

00:21:58.140 So they won't look into that. They won't think about it. Or they say, you know what,

00:22:01.980 we really shouldn't be involved in the politics of this. We shouldn't really be involved in trying

00:22:06.960 to make abortion illegal. We should only be focusing on, you know, free birth control or,

00:22:14.040 you know, government programs that make their lives easier. And, you know, pro-life is really

00:22:19.560 only about immigration or whatever it is. It's not about opposing abortion legally. What do you say to

00:22:26.360 those Christians who find themselves with that mentality? Listen, three things. First of all,

00:22:32.500 for Christians who say we can't get involved in pro-life because at least anti-abortion pro-life,

00:22:36.960 because we could just, you know, we'll help the women, which by the way, that's most of pro-life 0.97

00:22:40.660 is serving women and families. The thousands of pregnancy centers, live action, collaborates with

00:22:46.240 the foster care networks, the parents adopting. I mean, that's like the core, right? But we need legal

00:22:52.040 protection too. And I would say, first of all, you know, that sort of strain of Christianity,

00:22:55.800 which says, well, I'm not going to get involved in politics is, I believe, very hypocritical

00:23:00.820 because many of those, you know, pastors or influencers or celebrities who are Christian

00:23:06.160 are getting involved in politics. You know, when it's an issue like, you know, the death of George,

00:23:10.520 the killing, the slaying of George Floyd, they're willing to get involved in politics and say justice

00:23:14.460 for George Floyd. Where's justice for the five? And we should have justice for both. Why can't

00:23:19.880 we have justice for both? And when I say justice for the five, I mean, justice for the five children's

00:23:24.580 children who were likely murdered and who were murdered, but even by law, technically,

00:23:29.880 thankfully the law still protects some of them because they may have been born alive or killed

00:23:34.080 by a legal abortion means. And their remains are their bodies. Their infant bodies are with the

00:23:39.000 medical examiner's office in DC, and he is doing nothing. He is just sitting on, on this evidence and,

00:23:44.740 and probably waiting to dispose of it like trash instead of even letting them have a proper burial.

00:23:49.880 When there are many Christians who want to give these children a proper burial, but the second, 1.00

00:23:53.980 so the first thing is, I think it's hypocritical for, for Christians that say, well, I'm not going 0.82

00:23:57.380 to get involved in politics. You live in a country with rule of law. You are required to participate as 0.55

00:24:04.040 a good citizen. You are required to participate. It is shirking your duty as a Christian and as a 0.98

00:24:11.140 citizen to not participate and to participate mean to means to call strongly and boldly and

00:24:17.740 unapologetically for legal protection for all children, not just some, all children.

00:24:24.160 The second thing that I think is important is that Christians, you know, I think we, we tend to,

00:24:30.400 especially in popular culture, we tend to take cues from the culture. You know, we want to be liked.

00:24:35.940 We, we think that, you know, we want to show Christ well, and so we want it to look good. And so

00:24:41.020 we don't want to go against what the sort of, you know, the muses of the day are saying,

00:24:46.280 the popular voices of the day are saying. And if the popular voices of the day seem to say,

00:24:50.940 oh, abortion doesn't really happen like that. Abortion's okay. Abortion's empowering. 0.92

00:24:55.600 Then a cowardly Christian will shut up. A cowardly Christian will make excuses and rationalize and 1.00

00:25:01.260 not do anything. But we're not called to be cowardly Christians. To be a Christian is to be 1.00

00:25:05.680 courageous. It's to be loving. It's to, it's to sacrifice everything. That's what Jesus did.

00:25:10.640 He sacrificed everything for others, for us. And so if we're going to follow in his footsteps,

00:25:15.720 it means picking up our cross. And that means being willing to take whatever unpopularity comes

00:25:20.420 with that. And then the final thing that I think is important for Christians to understand right now,

00:25:25.700 and, and is a challenge for Christians is because we want to be compassionate and it's easy to fall into

00:25:31.260 false compassion. And I have a whole chapter about this in my book that, that my first,

00:25:36.100 my first and only book where it's, it's called beware of false compassion. And a Christian might 1.00

00:25:42.040 listen again to a sob, you know, these are sob stories. They're, they're, they're heartbreaking

00:25:46.440 stories. Um, you know, a woman talking about why she feels like she needs an abortion. Um, and the

00:25:52.320 abortion maybe was, she says it was good for her, you know, the perspective of the woman getting inside

00:25:56.660 the woman's shoes. And by the way, I think that's essential. I'm a woman. We need to get inside 0.78

00:26:00.620 each other's shoes, but we can never get inside of someone's subjectivity, someone's subjectivity,

00:26:06.640 get inside their, their, their, their, their, their eyes. They see it there from their perspective

00:26:11.420 and use that to justify violence against children, against innocence. We can never do that. And so,

00:26:20.100 you know, be compassionate, but be justly compassionate, be, be, be, uh, fairly compassionate

00:26:27.340 to both woman and mom. And we have a slogan at live action, both woman and baby. We have a slogan

00:26:32.720 at live action, which is love them both, you know, love the woman. I'm a woman. I love my fellow women

00:26:39.420 fight for women, advanced women, but love the child too. You can't. And the truth is you're not actually

00:26:46.500 loving her. You're not actually being compassionate to her. If you are accepting or encouraging or just

00:26:52.140 sitting on the sidelines, well, a woman walks into an abortion clinic. And the reason for that is you are

00:26:57.080 permitting your sisters to be, to, to, to, to live the lie that their child has no value and that this

00:27:03.940 is their good thing for their life. And that lie is going to devastate them. If it hasn't already,

00:27:08.680 it always does. It always devastates abortion, always devastates. So from those three perspectives,

00:27:14.600 you know, Christians are being hypocritical to say, we're not going to get involved in politics. 0.97

00:27:18.180 It's your job. It's your civic duty. Um, you know, Christians who want to be popular, 0.98

00:27:22.600 quite frankly, and it's in some ways, it's not popular to be pro-life. Um, although I think

00:27:27.100 that's going to change. So, you know, help make the change with us. Um, and then the final way of

00:27:31.920 you don't be falsely compassionate, be authentically compassionate. And that means seeing both victims

00:27:38.120 and recognizing that violence against children with abortion is never the answer to any problem

00:27:44.080 or any crisis that anyone faces. Yesterday, we talked about empathy and how empathy can be

00:27:55.720 weaponized to manipulate people into only caring about one side of the issue or into not believing

00:28:04.300 something is true. It kind of inhibits people from thinking because if you're told, well, if you're

00:28:08.820 empathetic, then you will just understand that some women have to have abortions and you will

00:28:14.340 just try to listen to her with empathy and not judge her. That's what it means to love someone,

00:28:22.260 whatever, you know, all of the manipulation and the euphemistic rhetoric that is used and empathy

00:28:29.000 can be a good thing, but just like any value, any characteristic, it has to be subject for the

00:28:35.200 Christian to the word of God. Just like authenticity can be a good thing. Autonomy can be a good thing. 1.00

00:28:42.280 If these things aren't subject to the word of God first, to a truth that transcends our feelings,

00:28:47.940 then they will actually be used. All of those characteristics will be used as excuses to sin,

00:28:52.920 excuses for selfishness, excuses not to use our mind and really think about what's going on.

00:28:58.300 True love, as you mentioned, is just. And so we're not just looking at the woman involved.

00:29:04.620 We are also looking at the victim, which is the child. And so Christians have to be very careful 1.00

00:29:10.080 not to be caught up in kind of the emotional mainstream rhetoric about anything, but in

00:29:16.080 particular about abortion. And this is, you brought this up so perfectly and people always ask,

00:29:22.060 because I'm sure they ask you, like, what do I say to this argument about abortion? What do I say

00:29:25.480 to this argument about abortion? Well, there's a million ways live action has equipped people

00:29:29.060 really well in this way. But I think the essential rule, always bring it back to the child. If someone

00:29:36.260 brings up, well, what about this scenario? Or what about this? Bring it back to the child. In every

00:29:40.740 situation, abortion kills a child. And simply ask, does this circumstance justify the murder of a

00:29:46.940 child? The answer is no. That's really essentially what you can always bring it back to when it comes to

00:29:52.480 abortion. And I just encourage Christians to think a little bit harder about their positions before 0.86

00:29:56.900 latching on to any kind of mainstream narrative about it. I mean, that's very well said, Ali. And

00:30:02.960 you're spot on. There's a moral order to the universe, and we can see it all written all

00:30:08.540 throughout the Bible. And that moral order is very clear, not just in Christianity. That moral order

00:30:13.300 is clear in Judaism. That moral order is clear even written in the heart of an atheist, because God

00:30:18.540 writes his laws in our hearts because we're made in his image. And if you're really quiet enough and

00:30:23.720 thoughtful enough and really reasonable enough and sit and reflect, you can begin to hear whispers of

00:30:29.300 God in your heart. And that ultimately, moral law includes, do not kill. Thou shalt not kill.

00:30:35.580 It's a hard and fast red line. Do not kill. And every abortion kills. So that should make this crystal

00:30:44.580 clear. It's simple, really. This should not be, you know, the opposition here, the pro-abortion side

00:30:49.460 is trying to complicate it. They're trying to make this as rationalized as possible and bringing all

00:30:56.160 kinds of justifications up. Don't let them do that. Get back to the simplicity of do not kill.

00:31:02.460 And then work so hard, join the movement and work so hard to solve problems for women, to solve 0.90

00:31:07.840 problems for family, to help children, you know, to be a solution, a person of solution, but never the

00:31:14.140 solution. We can never print the solution to be the violation of that fundamental moral law, which is

00:31:19.020 thou shalt not kill. Yes. I am reading this book that I heard about the other day. It was written a

00:31:24.360 long time ago, but it's called When Children Became People. And it's actually about at the start of the

00:31:29.740 church, at the start of Christianity, how incredibly countercultural Christianity was in its view of not

00:31:38.100 just children, but also women and slaves, because in ancient pagan Greek and Roman culture, they viewed society

00:31:48.500 in concentric circles with the adult free male being in the middle of the center of society, really the only

00:31:54.040 complete person. And old people, slaves, women and children were kind of just seen as burdens of society that can

00:32:01.380 really be exploited and used any way the adult free male wanted them to be used. And then Christianity came along, 0.85

00:32:08.100 and really universalized what was already true in the Old Testament about people being made in the

00:32:12.500 image of God, and introduced this idea of radical equality, that because everyone is made in the

00:32:19.120 image of God, they're all worthy of dignity and respect. And by the way, apart from Christ, we are all

00:32:24.620 equally unworthy of salvation. And this was a radical concept that really changed over time, the course of

00:32:31.700 history, by changing how cultures around the world viewed human beings and viewed children. It

00:32:37.640 just wasn't true, really, before the start of the church, that children were viewed in any way that

00:32:44.200 was dignified or worthy. And my call to the church today is that that's still our role. We are still

00:32:51.820 going to be the countercultural force that when society, as it always does when it moves towards 0.96

00:32:57.520 godlessness and evil, degrades the most vulnerable, including children. There's always been a form of child

00:33:04.260 sacrifice. Now it is being sanctified and made, you know, and legalized and celebrated by a particular

00:33:11.800 political side. It is still the role of the church, as it has been for 2,000 years to say,

00:33:16.920 no, they're equal in dignity and in worth, and someone's going to speak up for them, and it's going

00:33:23.080 to be us. Allie, I think that's such a great point. And it's, again, Christians need to know their

00:33:29.020 history because it was Christ. It is Christianity that has, in many ways, you could say, liberated

00:33:36.640 women and children and certainly liberated slaves. You know, Christ brought this dramatic difference

00:33:43.960 in what he preached from what was understood as reality by the Roman Empire and, you know,

00:33:50.360 the Greco-Roman kingdom. Christ comes in there and he says that in Christ there is no male or female

00:33:56.820 slave or free. He says, let the little children come unto me. He says, you actually have to become

00:34:02.280 like a child to enter the kingdom of God. He actually uses children as a model. You need to 0.58

00:34:08.440 become like a child to enter the kingdom of God. And he came into the world as an embryo. I mean,

00:34:13.940 Christ chose to enter human history for our salvation as a single cell embryo in the womb of his mother,

00:34:20.960 in the womb of a woman, in a woman. And that just elevates women through Mary. Women have 0.98

00:34:26.700 been elevated and were elevated at the time in a dramatic way with early Christianity. And I think

00:34:32.360 as Christians, you know, we need to be proud, proud of Christ, proud of Christianity. You know,

00:34:38.980 people say, well, Christianity has done so many bad things. Well, certainly Christians have done bad 1.00

00:34:42.580 things. You know, Christ is not responsible for our imperfections. He's actually here to heal them,

00:34:47.460 to forgive our imperfections. But because of Christ and the church, he found it and the truth that he

00:34:56.080 brought into a world that was very dark and is still dark today, he gives us that understanding,

00:35:01.380 as you said, we are made in God's image, that there is this radical equality of dignity that we all

00:35:08.060 share as human beings. And so we cannot treat the child as less than, you know, we cannot treat another

00:35:12.800 person as less than because of their sex or because of their color, because of any other characteristic

00:35:17.980 that we are all equal before God in value. And that's a beautiful and freeing message that we should

00:35:23.460 be proud of and we should share. That's our responsibility to share that as Christians.

00:35:27.420 Absolutely. And unfortunately, we do have a lot to push back against in the way of abortion

00:35:33.700 legislation right now. It is truly unfortunate and tragic, but it's also an opportunity for Christians 0.99

00:35:41.120 who haven't yet found their voice or who have already been courageously pushing back against this to

00:35:47.300 kind of renew our vigor and our eagerness to speak up for the most vulnerable. There is legislation in

00:35:55.180 Maryland, Colorado. You already touched on the Colorado legislation. I think that we talked about

00:36:00.160 the Maryland legislation last week. And then there have been bills recently to expand abortion access,

00:36:06.900 which is really kind of just a euphemism in California and New Jersey. Abortion coverage

00:36:13.380 has expanded in private insurance plans. There have been 22 bills introduced in 11 states,

00:36:19.040 California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Nebraska, New Jersey,

00:36:23.420 New York, Rhode Island, Wisconsin. There are also many blue states that are trying to legalize

00:36:29.340 at-home abortions through abortion pills that are sent by mail. This is all, I'm guessing,

00:36:34.480 because they're afraid that Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned. So they're trying to,

00:36:38.400 I guess, enshrine abortion access into law. What's your take on all of that? And how should we respond

00:36:47.000 strategically? Well, I first of all, speaking, you know, as we were as Christians, this is,

00:36:54.800 this is, I believe, demonic. You know, what's happening is demonic. Abortion's always been demonic 0.98

00:37:01.180 because it is the destruction of God's image, the destruction of a child. It's the profound lie and

00:37:06.380 fear that's spoken over a woman and some of her most vulnerable moments when she needs the most

00:37:11.040 support. And I don't think we should be surprised that this is happening. You know, the abortion 0.79

00:37:16.180 industry has never been about compromise. The abortion lobby, Planned Parenthood, has never been

00:37:21.560 about rationality. They've always been science deniers, if you want to use that popular term,

00:37:27.360 denying the reality of humanity in the womb. You know, there's part of this mysticism that says that

00:37:32.200 abortion doesn't kill, that life begins at birth. You know, what more mystical idea is that? It's

00:37:38.680 silly. It's not, it's, you know, completely inaccurate. And we should not be surprised that 0.74

00:37:43.880 they are all out radicalized and working to implement some of the most insane public policy

00:37:51.820 and laws in the country that our country has ever seen. But this is the fruit of Roe v. Wade, Ali. I mean,

00:37:57.460 I know your listeners are very educated and I'm sure they, many of them know this, but Roe v. Wade in

00:38:02.180 1973, when that was, that Supreme Court case was decided. And then the companion case was decided

00:38:07.780 shortly after Doe v. Bolton. These cases together effectively legalized abortion through all nine

00:38:15.540 months for any reason. So it basically said that if a woman had enough of a reason, personally,

00:38:21.700 emotionally, mentally, socioeconomically, and she and her doctor, presumably the abortionist,

00:38:27.460 agreed to it, there should be no limit on when or how she has an abortion or for what reason. 1.00

00:38:33.040 So that permits abortion through all nine months. So what these states are doing, and they're saying,

00:38:36.520 well, we're just protecting existing abortion rights. You know, like if you, if you, I was

00:38:41.620 tweeting about the Colorado law yesterday, as an example, that the governor of Colorado just signed

00:38:45.740 into law and what would legalize abortion through all nine months. I mean, it's already largely legal

00:38:51.020 through nine months in Colorado, but he, he further codified it without any conscience protections.

00:38:56.680 So that means if you're a medical professional, because he codified abortion as a right. Now, if

00:39:02.220 you're a medical professional denying a woman, a right, you know, if you're an OBGYN and you don't want 0.75

00:39:06.380 to commit an abortion on a baby that you could potentially be sued for that because you're

00:39:10.500 denying this woman, her right, you know, there's no conscience protections in the law, but that's the 1.00

00:39:15.100 fruit, direct fruit of Roe v. Wade. And so I would, again, we should not be surprised by any of this.

00:39:20.500 We should be heartbroken by it. We should be outraged by it. We should educate on it. We

00:39:27.460 should advocate against it. I am very hopeful that this is the sort of the dying scream of the

00:39:34.660 abortion industry right now. They are screaming through this legislation, through their friends

00:39:39.880 in media and politics. I mean, even the media coverage of the story of the five babies that

00:39:44.040 have been found in DC and that need justice that are, their remains are with, their bodies are with

00:39:48.100 the medical examiner's office and we need to call them and order that autopsy to be done and justice

00:39:52.440 to be served. Even the media coverage of that story has, Ali, has been insane. The CBS news affiliate

00:39:59.580 has been attacking the activists, has been, you know, pulled in some rando experts and pro-abortion

00:40:04.800 ladies saying that, you know, late-term abortion is fine, you know, just like not even no, no, no inch 1.00

00:40:11.680 of journalistic integrity or curiosity. No, like, oh, you know, what was the condition of the

00:40:16.820 baby's bodies? If these are nearly full-term infants, how do we know that it wasn't infanticide?

00:40:21.560 How do you, if you find the body of a nearly full-term infant and you just like tuck it away

00:40:27.600 and, and the, you know, you give it to the police, the police just say like, oh, oh, hot potato. I'm

00:40:31.560 not, I don't know what to do. Okay. Tuck it away. What you, you just leave a, you find a body of a

00:40:36.160 nearly full-term infant and you do nothing. Right. The authorities do nothing. I mean,

00:40:40.300 what a tremendous dereliction of their duty. They're completely, uh, shirking their duty to

00:40:47.460 investigate what might be a murder case. And I think it is a murder case in DC. So, you know,

00:40:54.080 we should not be surprised of the extremism here. Our response should be expose the works of evil,

00:41:00.320 expose, expose, expose them, um, do it lovingly, patiently, boldly, you know, do it faithfully.

00:41:06.880 It's hard. I know you've been doing it for years, Allie. I know many of your listeners do it

00:41:10.980 themselves and I know it's hard. You it's, it's personally emotionally draining people like,

00:41:16.900 you know, don't want to listen. They get upset, whatever. Um, but I guarantee you we're making

00:41:21.540 progress. I guarantee you. And we've seen it. I mean, there have been, there has been more pro-life

00:41:26.900 legislation in the last two years than in the entire history of the, of the pro-life movement,

00:41:30.800 more pro-life legislation, historic gain in pro-life laws, historic. And even the pro-abortion

00:41:36.520 side is admitting this and saying it's the worst year yet, worst year yet, you know, last year is

00:41:40.500 worst, worst year ever for pro for the, you know, pro-choice cause that's good. And Roe v. Wade may 0.82

00:41:46.900 be on the chalky chopping block right now. I know you've already done episodes on that, explaining

00:41:50.920 that, but you know, this case that we are a Dobbs v. Jackson that has been heard and it's going to be

00:41:56.240 decided very likely we'll cut at the heart of Roe v. Wade and further empower states that are just 0.92

00:42:04.240 to enact pro-life laws. And then on a cultural perspective, I think the more the works of evil 0.52

00:42:10.460 are exposed, the more people wake up, the more many have the opportunity to turn and become

00:42:17.400 pro-life. And I do see that happening. Live action is privileged to be on the front lines of that.

00:42:22.720 You know, our job is to go out there and we reach millions of people every week with the truth about

00:42:26.380 abortion and human life. And we see hearts and minds change all the time. And it's very encouraging.

00:42:31.960 You know, I was pro-choice now I'm pro-life. Oh my gosh, I had no idea. That's how abortion was

00:42:35.820 done. And I know you get that on your show too, Ali, you're changing hearts and minds. And it's

00:42:40.720 because, you know, we're not out there just with our opinions here. I mean, we have opinions,

00:42:44.920 but we're out there sharing truth that we've been entrusted with. You know, I'm not better than

00:42:48.920 anyone else, but I've been given the opportunity to learn. And I want to give other people that

00:42:53.320 opportunity too, because we live in a culture of lies. And the more that people learn, the more that

00:42:58.560 people see the truth for what it is, and we can change this. You know, we can make this country

00:43:04.080 pro-life. And I think with God's grace and his mercy, which there's plenty of it, we're well on our way.

00:43:14.320 Look, I, just a few years ago, was someone who thought that I supported abortion exceptions. I mean,

00:43:21.280 a few years ago, several years ago, and I still considered myself pro-life. What changed my mind?

00:43:27.060 Literally just thinking about it. Now, obviously the power of the Holy Spirit through sanctification

00:43:32.140 and changing my heart. And I'm sure that maybe live action had something to do that. I don't

00:43:36.400 remember if there was any specific video or time that I saw it, but I think I actually posted something

00:43:41.820 about maybe being okay with abortion and rape or incest. And I got some pushback on it. Literally,

00:43:47.480 I just hadn't really thought about it. That why would the circumstances surrounding someone's

00:43:53.000 conception change whether or not they should be subject to the death penalty as a child?

00:43:57.660 That didn't make any sense. And yet, I just really hadn't weighed the logic. It just

00:44:02.060 kind of sounded like maybe it was reasonable or a moderate or a nuanced position to have.

00:44:07.380 I think that's the position that a lot of people find themselves in. They just haven't thought about

00:44:12.880 it. They really just haven't thought about it. They don't know what abortion really entails.

00:44:17.140 And people will say, as you mentioned earlier, when you explain what an abortion procedure literally

00:44:23.000 is, which is brutal. It's just brutal in every single case. People will say that you're lying as

00:44:28.780 if abortion could be done through non-brutal means, as if you could kill a child in the womb through 0.59

00:44:34.180 like fairy dust or something like that. But people should really take courage in what you're saying

00:44:39.340 that when the truth is on your side, when you don't have to use euphemisms,

00:44:44.440 when you don't have to use rhetorical tricks, when you don't have to cover up what is actually

00:44:49.220 happening, but science and pregnancy, everything we know about fetal development and gestation,

00:44:56.880 when the procedure itself all helps our case, then you know that you're on the right side.

00:45:04.560 And as you mentioned earlier, it's okay if people get angry. Yeah, people are going to get angry at

00:45:08.940 the truth. That is not your indication of whether or not you're being obedient to God.

00:45:12.740 Jesus is described as being full of grace and truth. Stephen is described as being full of

00:45:17.980 grace and truth. We know how their lives ended. They did not win most popular here on earth,

00:45:23.660 and yet they were fully obedient to God till the end. So we have to judge our obedience not by what

00:45:28.560 other people say, but by what God says. And I think you're such a great example of that. And

00:45:34.040 I'm just very thankful. I'm very thankful for what you do. So any final thoughts? And where can people

00:45:41.120 find you and support you if they don't already follow you?

00:45:44.580 Thank you, Allie. And thanks for being a bold voice, that consistent and just very, I think,

00:45:50.900 just shepherding of people because people need to be, I think today there's so much noise and it needs

00:45:58.220 to just be broken down. People need to help connect the dots, help break things down. I think you're

00:46:02.760 right. Using our minds, you know, God gave us our minds. Critical thinking is our best friend right now

00:46:07.440 to wade through the mess out there. And if we just give ourselves a beat to take a pause and say,

00:46:12.660 okay, does this make logical sense? Let me think this through. That will really serve us. And it

00:46:17.860 certainly has served me. And I know it served you. And you just said it served you in a huge way on

00:46:21.240 the abortion issue to actually take a beat and think about it. Because everyone's just railing against,

00:46:25.180 you know, pro-life or they're railing with their opinion instead of taking that pause to think.

00:46:29.500 Just some final thoughts. I mean, we are, you know, I don't know when this episode is coming

00:46:35.440 out. When is this episode coming out? Today. You are awesome. Okay. So it's coming out today. It's

00:46:40.940 Tuesday. The bodies have been in the, the bodies of these five babies have been in the possession of

00:46:46.860 the DC police and medical examiner since last week. We're on, I think, day eight now, almost a full

00:46:52.560 week. And it is not too late for an autopsy to be performed. I don't know if the autopsy will be

00:46:58.680 able to properly see how the trauma was done to the baby's body and to determine the manner of

00:47:03.620 death, but there's a shot that it can. And it's their responsibility to do it and then allow the

00:47:08.200 remains to be given a proper burial. We can play a part in making that happen. Even with the autopsy,

00:47:13.940 the police still need to investigate Cesare Santangelo's clinic. I'm pretty confident that

00:47:20.140 if they did the right thing and investigated him, they will see him breaking, not just DC law,

00:47:25.520 but if the feds get in their federal law, that needs to happen ASAP. It should have happened 0.62

00:47:30.460 years ago. Children have died since then because of the failure of action. So if you're listening,

00:47:36.140 please take action, liveaction.org. You go to the live action Instagram or my Instagram,

00:47:41.340 and we have action items for you. Calling the medical examiner's office is one of the first

00:47:45.680 things that you can do to urge them to take action. There's going to be other action alerts

00:47:49.360 coming in the future. So please do that. There's a text action alert you can sign up for on the live

00:47:53.900 action page and on my page, and that will give you minute by minute or day by day things that you can

00:47:59.280 do. And I just encourage everyone, you know, this is a beautiful time to be alive. You know,

00:48:04.600 this is a dynamic time to be alive. We are so blessed. We're given God who's with us. He will

00:48:10.320 give us everything we need. There's a big drama playing out right now worldwide. And, you know,

00:48:16.360 God is with us. And do not be afraid. Do not feel overwhelmed. I know we can contend to that,

00:48:23.820 depending on how much news we're reading in any given day, but God foresaw all of this.

00:48:28.440 And He has a specific plan for every Christian right now in our role to play, in bringing hope,

00:48:35.580 bringing peace, you know, being the peace amidst the storm, the peace that only Christ can give us.

00:48:40.140 And by thinking, you know, not losing our heads, like you were saying, Allie, thinking critically

00:48:44.000 and being willing to speak out the truth that we do have, because that will help other people

00:48:48.680 think critically and other people to have peace in the midst of the storm. And I think the storm

00:48:52.700 will pass. I do think that this dark time, it's going to get better. I think that our brightest

00:48:57.880 days are ahead, both as a country, the United States and as a world. I do think that God will

00:49:02.940 bring many more souls to Him and we can be part of that. And so, you know, keep your peace,

00:49:07.020 don't lose your head. And please call the DC Medical Examiner's office and join us in this particular

00:49:12.200 fight because we want justice for these five children and, and may the justice for them

00:49:16.140 help bring about justice for other children. Yes. Thank you so much for that optimism and that

00:49:20.700 hope that something that we need, especially right now. I also encourage people to pick up your book.

00:49:25.160 It's called Fighting for Life. And I think you can get it wherever books are sold. We have it in our

00:49:29.160 house. It's a great book. It's very encouraging and empowering. So thank you so much. Thanks for taking

00:49:34.620 the time to come on. I know this is going to edify a lot of people. Thanks so much, Allie.

00:49:42.200 Thank you.

00:49:43.200 Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 05, 2022

Ep 594 ｜ The Pro-Choice Movement Takes Its Dying Breath ｜ Guest： Lila Rose

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