Ep 594 ｜ The Pro-Choice Movement Takes Its Dying Breath ｜ Guest： Lila Rose
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Summary
In this episode, we talk to Lila Rose, President of the pro-life organization, Live Action, and author of Fighting for Life, about the gruesome remains of five babies found in a D.C. abortion clinic.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. That's American meat delivered right to your front door.
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Go to GoodRanchers.com slash Allie. That's GoodRanchers.com slash Allie.
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All right, today we are going to talk to our friend Lila Rose. She is a pro-life activist,
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pro-life advocate. She is the president of the pro-life organization, Live Action.
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She wrote a book called Fighting for Life. She has been doing this work for about 15 years now.
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She has been on the front lines fighting against abortion. And we are going to talk about this
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horrifying and truly shocking story coming out of Washington, D.C. about five babies, the remains
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of whom were found in a Washington, D.C. apartment, but they come from an abortion clinic in Washington,
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D.C. And we'll kind of clear up some confusion about that. And these babies all were in the second
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and third trimester. And some of them look to have been murdered using illegal means. Of course,
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all abortion is brutal and horrific. But the particular methods used, it looks like,
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on some of these babies could have been partial birth abortions, which are actually banned by federal
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law. The graphic images of these sweet, precious babies, these tiny image bearers of God, it's truly
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physically painful to look at. Lila tweeted last week the images of these babies that were found in
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one of the babies. And this is graphic. And there's going to be graphic language throughout
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this podcast. We've, you know, we've done this several times where we've described to you what
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abortion is, what the procedure is, the science, the medical terminology that describes what is
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actually going on in abortion. So just be ready for that. I think it is so important to be clear
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on this subject so we can really see just how barbaric this is. But one of these pictures,
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it's a baby girl, and she is looking at the camera. One of her eyes is open. It looks like she's
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peering into the camera right into your soul. Just a precious, almost perfectly intact baby girl.
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But the back of her skull is crushed. And it looks like she has endured a partial birth abortion where
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her brain was actually sucked out of the back of her head while she was being partially delivered.
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That is abortion. Whether it's through that method or another method, every time you are murdering
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a defenseless, innocent human being with a soul. This is not nuanced. There are not caveats.
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There is no logical or theologically solid way to be personally pro-life but politically pro-choice.
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You can't be holistically pro-life without first being fundamentally anti-abortion. And you cannot
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be anti-abortion without, at the very least, bare minimum recognizing that a child, a human being
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inside the womb should have a legal recognition of their humanity, a legal right not to be murdered.
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We have no business calling ourselves pro-life if we can't even start there. Yes, we should take care
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of women and children. Yes, we should care about children outside the womb. Yes, we can debate the
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different policies that could create a culture of life. Absolutely. But that does not preclude us
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from being against the slaughter of unborn children. That's what we're going to talk about
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today. We're going to talk about this specific story and the hashtag that Lila and Live Action
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started, Justice for the Five. If we care about justice, we should care about justice for them.
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She's going to talk about exactly what happened here, some of the problems and the corruption
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in this particular D.C. clinic. We're also going to talk about the Christian responsibility to be
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courageous in the face of this kind of evil and how the history of the church compels us as Christians
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today to stand up for the most vulnerable, namely children, how the gospel compels us to do so.
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And we are also going to talk about the other legislation that's happening across the country,
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particularly in blue states, as we look to the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade this summer.
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May the Lord let it be so. And she is going to do, Lila is going to do what she does best,
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which is not only inform and educate, but also inspire you and encourage you. She ends this
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conversation with so much hope and so much optimism. So yes, it's going to be heartbreaking to hear some
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of the things that we're talking about because abortion is heartbreaking. It should make us sad.
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It should make us really angry. It should get us riled up. It should be hard to listen to.
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It should be hard to see those images. That's because God has made our hearts soft and he
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has given us the grace of compassion to care about these things. And so allow yourself to hear what we're
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talking about. Allow yourself to go look at those images, which I don't think that we are actually
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able to show on YouTube, but they are on Twitter for now. So go look at those images, rest in that
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pain, like rest in that heartache and let that heartache compel you to do something. And that is,
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that's what Lila is going to encourage us in today. By the end of this, by the end of this conversation,
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you are going to, yes, be sad that abortion exists, but you are also going to feel
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so empowered and so filled with bravery and boldness to use your voice on behalf of the
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voiceless. That is what we are doing when we are talking about abortion. For all the people
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and all the Christians that you follow that talk about social justice, talk about caring for the
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most vulnerable and the least of these, if they're not also talking about abortion, then I think that
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you should ask them why. Sure, we don't have to talk about every news story all of the time.
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That's true. But for the Christian who says that they stand for justice and they're silent on this,
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I question, I question if they are motivated really by justice and an obedience to God, or if they are
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just going along with the mainstream. The theme of this episode is almost every episode that we have
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is that politics matter because policy matters because people matter. That is the relatable
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alliteration that we repeat so much. Politics affects policy, policy affects people, and people
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Lila, thank you so much for joining us again. I want to talk to you about this big story that you
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tweeted about a few days ago with the graphic images of the babies who had been aborted. These
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babies' remains were found in a D.C. apartment. They come from a D.C. abortion clinic there. Can you just
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give us the backstory of what happened and how these babies were discovered?
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Sure. Well, there, first of all, appear to be a lot of misleading stories in mainstream media about
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this case right now, so it's important to set the record straight. The core of the story is that the
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remains of five children, some of them nearly full-term, according to the experts that have
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analyzed the documentation of their remains, the bodies of five children are now in the possession of
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the D.C. police and the D.C. medical examiner's office. And their children, three of them in
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particular, their bodies and the trauma on their bodies are consistent with potentially illegal
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abortions or consistent with the babies being born alive and then being killed. And so these would be
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federal crimes as well as possible D.C. of Columbia crimes, District of Columbia crimes. And so it's
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absolutely essential. And what live action is calling on the D.C. police to do and the D.C. medical
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examiner's office to do is to investigate. They may have in their possession the evidence of
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federal crimes being committed against these children. And they, as of Friday, Ali, said that
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they hadn't yet done an autopsy. And that was four days ago. No autopsy had been completed yet on the
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children. An autopsy is necessary to ascertain whether or not the crimes were committed against
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them. So that's really the core of the story. I can get into all the surrounding details about how this
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happened and why this is happening. But the core is that there are five children who need justice.
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Their bodies are with the D.C. medical examiner's office. He can do his job and do an examination,
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a pathological examination of the bodies. He has not done that yet. And until that's done,
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justice can't be had. And that that is really the the urgent item at hand right now.
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Yes. And I want to talk more about that core. But just for people who are trying to piece this
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together in their minds and they're wondering, hang on, how exactly were these bodies discovered?
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Can you give us those surrounding details? Because I understand the remains were found in the
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apartment of an anti-abortion pro-life activist, possibly handed over by a whistleblower. But I
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think some people are kind of curious or confused since there has been so much misleading reporting
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about this. So can you fill us in? Yes. And I think what's also really confusing for people is
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one of the activists at the heart of the story on the same day that she was in the process of
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handing the remains over to D.C. police. So she was doing that voluntarily. On that same day,
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the FBI shows up apparently at her home to indict her for criminal for charges against the
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indict her for the FACE Act. So basically, this federal law having to do with activism she did with
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several others two years ago. So it's this really unprecedented and strange coincidence.
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These are two totally disconnected things that happened.
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Yeah, exactly. And according to the activist, according to the activist's own public statements,
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you know, they were given these remains by a whistleblower. And this happened. This has
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happened in the pro-life movement before where whistleblowers associated with abortion clinics,
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either a whistleblower gives over the remains of aborted children or the aborted children are
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literally thrown away in the trash and the pro-lifers try to retrieve them to give them a proper
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burial. So this has happened before in the decades of our movement. And this has been one of the acts
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of mercy, really, that pro-lifers have done historically to try to give these children a
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proper burial. But according to the activist, a whistleblower gives them the remains. They are
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working with D.C. police to give over the remains of these five children because there may be federal
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crimes committed against them or District of Columbia crimes because there are statutes in D.C.
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against illegal abortions. And the backstory here, too, is really important. Cheser Santangelo
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is the abortionist that committed these crimes against these children. He runs this D.C. abortion
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clinic. He does late-term abortions. Live Action has investigated him in the past. And we have
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documented him on undercover camera admitting that he would leave babies to die, admitting that he would
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be willing to commit infanticide. He said it himself on undercover camera. And he also says that
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the manner of how he kills these children is through cutting the umbilical cord. It's what
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he claims on undercover camera, which according to, again, the medical experts, and now it's about a
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dozen of them, have reviewed the documentation of their bodies, have said, actually, it looks like
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one of them is a partial birth abortion, which would be illegal. This little baby girl's neck was
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cut. Her brain was removed. One of the baby boys was born totally intact. So it looks like he might
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have been born alive before being killed, maybe drowned. We're not sure. So it is crucial that D.C.
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police and the D.C. medical examiner take action now. That's why Live Action is urging everyone
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to call the D.C. medical examiner's office and say, do your investigation. Do an examination of
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these bodies. Get a qualified pathologist in there and do an autopsy to find out how these children died
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and then investigate Cheser Santangelo. He is, I believe, operating illegally in D.C.
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and he's committing infanticide. And one more thing to add to that, Allie, is, you know, you can
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actually type in D.C. Surgy Center on Google right now. If anyone's listening, you can do this. Type
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in D.C. Surgy Center or Surgy Health D.C. on Google. Go to the Google review page for this business, for
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this horrific business, late-term abortion business. You will find two Google reviews in the last year,
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months apart, where the women indicate that their babies may have been born alive and express their
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unhappiness with that fact. They're going in for abortions and they're saying, my little girl
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couldn't be revived. You know, I had to deliver her at the hospital. Another woman saying that I don't
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know if the baby was born alive. This abortionist is, I think, doing this prolifically. He is committing
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abortions on viable babies. They are being born alive and then he's killing them. Whether he kills them
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in or outside of the womb doesn't matter from a perspective of morality or human rights. But
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unfortunately, our law is incoherent and it will only protect the born alive babies. But there still
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is a law to protect the born alive babies. And this abortionist, I believe, is violating that law,
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those laws regularly. So this is a hugely urgent story. Very important for people to get involved.
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If people are listening and they want to get involved, you can go to our Instagram at liveaction
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or liveaction.org, liveactionnews.org and get the phone number for the DC Medical Examiner's Office
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and please call and express your concern and say, an autopsy must be properly performed on these
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children to determine the manner and the timing of death. Because I think it could find that at least
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one or two of them were born alive. And one of these babies, a baby girl, maybe 28 or 30 weeks old.
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So, you know, old enough to survive outside the womb, this beautiful baby girl
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was the victim of an illegal partial birth abortion. And I'm sorry for the graphic nature
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of this. It's heartbreaking to even consider. But that means this little girl would have been
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delivered partially halfway, delivered feet first, alive. And the abortionist would have cut her neck
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alive and then suctioned out her brains, collapsing her skull and delivering her dead. And that would
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have been a violation of the federal partial birth abortion ban act. So there's tremendously,
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this is a tremendously significant story that lives and lives, future lives are at stake.
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And that's why we're urging everyone to take action.
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And it really makes you wonder if this is happening at this abortion clinic. And as you said,
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you have gotten this particular abortionist on camera. I watched the video. It's on the live
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action website saying, and you can tell he's kind of squirming, admitting what he does, that if a baby
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is born alive, then he would do things not to help it, I think, was his particular language. And of
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course, this is something that is not just kind of admitted behind closed doors. We had the governor
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of Virginia just a couple years ago, say on radio, that if a baby survives an abortion, the mother and
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the doctor would put the baby to the side and kind of decide what to do. And so that really makes you
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wonder, how often is this happening that we don't know? As you mentioned, the partial birth abortion
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ban went into place in the early 2000s. And so technically, the kind of abortion that you just
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described, where the brain is suctioned out while the baby is still alive, being partially delivered,
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is technically illegal. But I have my doubts that someone like Leroy Carhart, who, you know, has
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talked about under giving testimony in court that he has performed this kind of abortion on living
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babies several times. Kermit Gosnell, obviously, one of the most horrific cases. It just makes me
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wonder if this is actually happening against federal law, very consistently, and we just happened to find
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out one of many, many instances. Yeah. Allie, it's happening everywhere. I mean, listen, there are
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10. I've been investigating the abortion industry for 15 years. Live Action's been researching it for
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the last decade. There are there are tens of thousands of late term abortions at minimum happening
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in our country every single year. In every single late term abortion, you have to take a viable baby
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and you have to somehow deliver it, but make sure it's dead before it's delivered. The problem with
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that is for the abortionist is if you're inducing labor in the woman, which is frequently done in
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late term abortions, that baby may be born alive. Or depending how sloppy you are, how lazy you are,
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depending on your methods, you might just let that baby be born alive and then either submerge it in
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solution. And we have documentation at Live Action of abortion clinics who do late term abortions
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admitting this is what they do. They take a born alive child that's viable that they're trying to
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abort. They didn't kill it in utero because either, again, lazy or their method is different.
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They do an injection. The injection misses the baby. Or sometimes the woman, because this takes
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about the induction takes about two days. But hey, if you're like 30 weeks or farther along,
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the woman might accidentally go into labor. Exactly. Labor is unpredictable. Right. Before the doctor
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is able to go in there when he is scheduled to do so and kill the baby. So go on.
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You're exactly right, Ali. And so we've even had undercover clinics admit on tape. And this is with
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our inhuman investigation that we did in 2013. And since then, we've continued this investigation. So
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it's been almost 10 years of this kind of investigative work. And they've admitted on tape that they would
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take the baby and submerge it in a barrel or a bucket of solution to preserve the remains before they
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hand them to a medical waste company, put them in solution, which would drown them at the same time
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if the child is born alive. And that is my suspicion when I think that it's so necessary that the DC
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examiner do his job and the DC police, that that may have happened to some of these babies, that they
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were born alive. And in order to not have to deal with, you know, just screaming or, you know, letting
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them just live on for maybe even days in the back room, they submerge them in the solution. I mean,
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this has been admitted on tape by other abortion clinics. So this is a, you know, it is, it's
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absolutely devastating to consider that this is happening. It's easier to say, oh, it doesn't happen. We
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would never do that. That's impossible. But we know based on even public record, you know, you mentioned
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Kermit Gosnell, he was killing born alive infants. It's a fact, it's a fact proven in a court of law in
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Philadelphia. And he's in prison because of it. We know that this is this happens. We know it is reasonable
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that it happens because late term abortion is a disgusting and deadly business. And it doesn't
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always work to kill the baby in utero. Sometimes that baby is born alive. And that's why, by the
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way, there is never a justification for abortion. And when, when, when advocates for abortion say,
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well, late term abortion is sometimes necessary. That is a complete lie. It is a, it is a cruel lie
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because those children, every single one of them could be born alive instead of dead. The birth still
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needs to happen. Right. Let them be born alive. Give them a chance. That's what we say. Give them
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a chance. Um, there are, you know, folks that would adopt them. There's long waiting lists of adoptive
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couples looking for newborns. So, you know, there are safe haven laws in many safe haven laws. Exactly.
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And, and, you know, looking at the political landscape right now, there are multiple states. And I think,
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you know, you've been tracking this carefully on your show, Ali, there are multiple states that are
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trying to pass laws to decriminalize any, any kind of abortion or even infanticide in the first few
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days or months of the baby's life. They don't want any protection for these children. I'm talking
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about California. I'm talking about Colorado. I'm talking about Maryland. I'm talking about New
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Jersey states that are passing laws that say a woman can have an abortion for any reason up until
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nine months. And even maybe in the perinatal period, which could be up to maybe 60 days up there to
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the baby's birth. It's up to her and her doctor to decide what care the child gets or lack of care.
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So presumably the child could be left to die. And, you know, again, people think, well, it would,
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could never happen. It is happening. It's been documented to happen. And it is up to every one
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of us to do something because this is the greatest human rights abuse that I think our planet has ever
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seen is the sheer cruelty against infants, against prenatal infants, and the laws that are being
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weaponized against them. Yep. There's a quote by R.C. Sproul. He's a reformed theologian. And he
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often said when he was alive, if I know anything about the character of God over the 40 years that
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I've been in ministry, it's that he hates abortion. And I think if there's anything that the Christian
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knows about the God who made us in his image, who himself came in the form of a baby to become
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our redemption, who, against the protestations of his disciples, welcomed the little children to
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himself, who says in Psalm 139 that he knit us together purposely and specifically and lovingly
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in our mother's wombs. If there is anything that we know about that God, the God who demanded the
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death penalty for child sacrifice among Israel in the Old Testament, if there's anything that we know
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about that God, it is that he hates abortion. That doesn't mean that he hates the women who have
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had abortions, that there isn't grace and forgiveness and mercy and redemption for them because there is
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just like there is for all of us. But it grieves me when I see Christians not allow their hearts to
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break for this in the way that it breaks God's heart or angers God. That instead, I don't know if it's
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just ideology or because, as you mentioned, it's so uncomfortable to really grapple with what this
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is, they won't look at what actually happens in an abortion procedure in the first, second, and third
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trimester. Which, by the way, just to mention, I know you and I are talking about late-term abortion,
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but we agree abortion at any stage is a brutal procedure that is killing a human being with worth.
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So they won't look into that. They won't think about it. Or they say, you know what,
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we really shouldn't be involved in the politics of this. We shouldn't really be involved in trying
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to make abortion illegal. We should only be focusing on, you know, free birth control or,
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you know, government programs that make their lives easier. And, you know, pro-life is really
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only about immigration or whatever it is. It's not about opposing abortion legally. What do you say to
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those Christians who find themselves with that mentality? Listen, three things. First of all,
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for Christians who say we can't get involved in pro-life because at least anti-abortion pro-life,
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because we could just, you know, we'll help the women, which by the way, that's most of pro-life
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is serving women and families. The thousands of pregnancy centers, live action, collaborates with
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the foster care networks, the parents adopting. I mean, that's like the core, right? But we need legal
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protection too. And I would say, first of all, you know, that sort of strain of Christianity,
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which says, well, I'm not going to get involved in politics is, I believe, very hypocritical
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because many of those, you know, pastors or influencers or celebrities who are Christian
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are getting involved in politics. You know, when it's an issue like, you know, the death of George,
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the killing, the slaying of George Floyd, they're willing to get involved in politics and say justice
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for George Floyd. Where's justice for the five? And we should have justice for both. Why can't
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we have justice for both? And when I say justice for the five, I mean, justice for the five children's
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children who were likely murdered and who were murdered, but even by law, technically,
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thankfully the law still protects some of them because they may have been born alive or killed
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by a legal abortion means. And their remains are their bodies. Their infant bodies are with the
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medical examiner's office in DC, and he is doing nothing. He is just sitting on, on this evidence and,
00:23:44.740
and probably waiting to dispose of it like trash instead of even letting them have a proper burial.
00:23:49.880
When there are many Christians who want to give these children a proper burial, but the second,
00:23:53.980
so the first thing is, I think it's hypocritical for, for Christians that say, well, I'm not going
00:23:57.380
to get involved in politics. You live in a country with rule of law. You are required to participate as
00:24:04.040
a good citizen. You are required to participate. It is shirking your duty as a Christian and as a
00:24:11.140
citizen to not participate and to participate mean to means to call strongly and boldly and
00:24:17.740
unapologetically for legal protection for all children, not just some, all children.
00:24:24.160
The second thing that I think is important is that Christians, you know, I think we, we tend to,
00:24:30.400
especially in popular culture, we tend to take cues from the culture. You know, we want to be liked.
00:24:35.940
We, we think that, you know, we want to show Christ well, and so we want it to look good. And so
00:24:41.020
we don't want to go against what the sort of, you know, the muses of the day are saying,
00:24:46.280
the popular voices of the day are saying. And if the popular voices of the day seem to say,
00:24:50.940
oh, abortion doesn't really happen like that. Abortion's okay. Abortion's empowering.
00:24:55.600
Then a cowardly Christian will shut up. A cowardly Christian will make excuses and rationalize and
00:25:01.260
not do anything. But we're not called to be cowardly Christians. To be a Christian is to be
00:25:05.680
courageous. It's to be loving. It's to, it's to sacrifice everything. That's what Jesus did.
00:25:10.640
He sacrificed everything for others, for us. And so if we're going to follow in his footsteps,
00:25:15.720
it means picking up our cross. And that means being willing to take whatever unpopularity comes
00:25:20.420
with that. And then the final thing that I think is important for Christians to understand right now,
00:25:25.700
and, and is a challenge for Christians is because we want to be compassionate and it's easy to fall into
00:25:31.260
false compassion. And I have a whole chapter about this in my book that, that my first,
00:25:36.100
my first and only book where it's, it's called beware of false compassion. And a Christian might
00:25:42.040
listen again to a sob, you know, these are sob stories. They're, they're, they're heartbreaking
00:25:46.440
stories. Um, you know, a woman talking about why she feels like she needs an abortion. Um, and the
00:25:52.320
abortion maybe was, she says it was good for her, you know, the perspective of the woman getting inside
00:25:56.660
the woman's shoes. And by the way, I think that's essential. I'm a woman. We need to get inside
00:26:00.620
each other's shoes, but we can never get inside of someone's subjectivity, someone's subjectivity,
00:26:06.640
get inside their, their, their, their, their, their eyes. They see it there from their perspective
00:26:11.420
and use that to justify violence against children, against innocence. We can never do that. And so,
00:26:20.100
you know, be compassionate, but be justly compassionate, be, be, be, uh, fairly compassionate
00:26:27.340
to both woman and mom. And we have a slogan at live action, both woman and baby. We have a slogan
00:26:32.720
at live action, which is love them both, you know, love the woman. I'm a woman. I love my fellow women
00:26:39.420
fight for women, advanced women, but love the child too. You can't. And the truth is you're not actually
00:26:46.500
loving her. You're not actually being compassionate to her. If you are accepting or encouraging or just
00:26:52.140
sitting on the sidelines, well, a woman walks into an abortion clinic. And the reason for that is you are
00:26:57.080
permitting your sisters to be, to, to, to, to live the lie that their child has no value and that this
00:27:03.940
is their good thing for their life. And that lie is going to devastate them. If it hasn't already,
00:27:08.680
it always does. It always devastates abortion, always devastates. So from those three perspectives,
00:27:14.600
you know, Christians are being hypocritical to say, we're not going to get involved in politics.
00:27:18.180
It's your job. It's your civic duty. Um, you know, Christians who want to be popular,
00:27:22.600
quite frankly, and it's in some ways, it's not popular to be pro-life. Um, although I think
00:27:27.100
that's going to change. So, you know, help make the change with us. Um, and then the final way of
00:27:31.920
you don't be falsely compassionate, be authentically compassionate. And that means seeing both victims
00:27:38.120
and recognizing that violence against children with abortion is never the answer to any problem
00:27:44.080
or any crisis that anyone faces. Yesterday, we talked about empathy and how empathy can be
00:27:55.720
weaponized to manipulate people into only caring about one side of the issue or into not believing
00:28:04.300
something is true. It kind of inhibits people from thinking because if you're told, well, if you're
00:28:08.820
empathetic, then you will just understand that some women have to have abortions and you will
00:28:14.340
just try to listen to her with empathy and not judge her. That's what it means to love someone,
00:28:22.260
whatever, you know, all of the manipulation and the euphemistic rhetoric that is used and empathy
00:28:29.000
can be a good thing, but just like any value, any characteristic, it has to be subject for the
00:28:35.200
Christian to the word of God. Just like authenticity can be a good thing. Autonomy can be a good thing.
00:28:42.280
If these things aren't subject to the word of God first, to a truth that transcends our feelings,
00:28:47.940
then they will actually be used. All of those characteristics will be used as excuses to sin,
00:28:52.920
excuses for selfishness, excuses not to use our mind and really think about what's going on.
00:28:58.300
True love, as you mentioned, is just. And so we're not just looking at the woman involved.
00:29:04.620
We are also looking at the victim, which is the child. And so Christians have to be very careful
00:29:10.080
not to be caught up in kind of the emotional mainstream rhetoric about anything, but in
00:29:16.080
particular about abortion. And this is, you brought this up so perfectly and people always ask,
00:29:22.060
because I'm sure they ask you, like, what do I say to this argument about abortion? What do I say
00:29:25.480
to this argument about abortion? Well, there's a million ways live action has equipped people
00:29:29.060
really well in this way. But I think the essential rule, always bring it back to the child. If someone
00:29:36.260
brings up, well, what about this scenario? Or what about this? Bring it back to the child. In every
00:29:40.740
situation, abortion kills a child. And simply ask, does this circumstance justify the murder of a
00:29:46.940
child? The answer is no. That's really essentially what you can always bring it back to when it comes to
00:29:52.480
abortion. And I just encourage Christians to think a little bit harder about their positions before
00:29:56.900
latching on to any kind of mainstream narrative about it. I mean, that's very well said, Ali. And
00:30:02.960
you're spot on. There's a moral order to the universe, and we can see it all written all
00:30:08.540
throughout the Bible. And that moral order is very clear, not just in Christianity. That moral order
00:30:13.300
is clear in Judaism. That moral order is clear even written in the heart of an atheist, because God
00:30:18.540
writes his laws in our hearts because we're made in his image. And if you're really quiet enough and
00:30:23.720
thoughtful enough and really reasonable enough and sit and reflect, you can begin to hear whispers of
00:30:29.300
God in your heart. And that ultimately, moral law includes, do not kill. Thou shalt not kill.
00:30:35.580
It's a hard and fast red line. Do not kill. And every abortion kills. So that should make this crystal
00:30:44.580
clear. It's simple, really. This should not be, you know, the opposition here, the pro-abortion side
00:30:49.460
is trying to complicate it. They're trying to make this as rationalized as possible and bringing all
00:30:56.160
kinds of justifications up. Don't let them do that. Get back to the simplicity of do not kill.
00:31:02.460
And then work so hard, join the movement and work so hard to solve problems for women, to solve
00:31:07.840
problems for family, to help children, you know, to be a solution, a person of solution, but never the
00:31:14.140
solution. We can never print the solution to be the violation of that fundamental moral law, which is
00:31:19.020
thou shalt not kill. Yes. I am reading this book that I heard about the other day. It was written a
00:31:24.360
long time ago, but it's called When Children Became People. And it's actually about at the start of the
00:31:29.740
church, at the start of Christianity, how incredibly countercultural Christianity was in its view of not
00:31:38.100
just children, but also women and slaves, because in ancient pagan Greek and Roman culture, they viewed society
00:31:48.500
in concentric circles with the adult free male being in the middle of the center of society, really the only
00:31:54.040
complete person. And old people, slaves, women and children were kind of just seen as burdens of society that can
00:32:01.380
really be exploited and used any way the adult free male wanted them to be used. And then Christianity came along,
00:32:08.100
and really universalized what was already true in the Old Testament about people being made in the
00:32:12.500
image of God, and introduced this idea of radical equality, that because everyone is made in the
00:32:19.120
image of God, they're all worthy of dignity and respect. And by the way, apart from Christ, we are all
00:32:24.620
equally unworthy of salvation. And this was a radical concept that really changed over time, the course of
00:32:31.700
history, by changing how cultures around the world viewed human beings and viewed children. It
00:32:37.640
just wasn't true, really, before the start of the church, that children were viewed in any way that
00:32:44.200
was dignified or worthy. And my call to the church today is that that's still our role. We are still
00:32:51.820
going to be the countercultural force that when society, as it always does when it moves towards
00:32:57.520
godlessness and evil, degrades the most vulnerable, including children. There's always been a form of child
00:33:04.260
sacrifice. Now it is being sanctified and made, you know, and legalized and celebrated by a particular
00:33:11.800
political side. It is still the role of the church, as it has been for 2,000 years to say,
00:33:16.920
no, they're equal in dignity and in worth, and someone's going to speak up for them, and it's going
00:33:23.080
to be us. Allie, I think that's such a great point. And it's, again, Christians need to know their
00:33:29.020
history because it was Christ. It is Christianity that has, in many ways, you could say, liberated
00:33:36.640
women and children and certainly liberated slaves. You know, Christ brought this dramatic difference
00:33:43.960
in what he preached from what was understood as reality by the Roman Empire and, you know,
00:33:50.360
the Greco-Roman kingdom. Christ comes in there and he says that in Christ there is no male or female
00:33:56.820
slave or free. He says, let the little children come unto me. He says, you actually have to become
00:34:02.280
like a child to enter the kingdom of God. He actually uses children as a model. You need to
00:34:08.440
become like a child to enter the kingdom of God. And he came into the world as an embryo. I mean,
00:34:13.940
Christ chose to enter human history for our salvation as a single cell embryo in the womb of his mother,
00:34:20.960
in the womb of a woman, in a woman. And that just elevates women through Mary. Women have
00:34:26.700
been elevated and were elevated at the time in a dramatic way with early Christianity. And I think
00:34:32.360
as Christians, you know, we need to be proud, proud of Christ, proud of Christianity. You know,
00:34:38.980
people say, well, Christianity has done so many bad things. Well, certainly Christians have done bad
00:34:42.580
things. You know, Christ is not responsible for our imperfections. He's actually here to heal them,
00:34:47.460
to forgive our imperfections. But because of Christ and the church, he found it and the truth that he
00:34:56.080
brought into a world that was very dark and is still dark today, he gives us that understanding,
00:35:01.380
as you said, we are made in God's image, that there is this radical equality of dignity that we all
00:35:08.060
share as human beings. And so we cannot treat the child as less than, you know, we cannot treat another
00:35:12.800
person as less than because of their sex or because of their color, because of any other characteristic
00:35:17.980
that we are all equal before God in value. And that's a beautiful and freeing message that we should
00:35:23.460
be proud of and we should share. That's our responsibility to share that as Christians.
00:35:27.420
Absolutely. And unfortunately, we do have a lot to push back against in the way of abortion
00:35:33.700
legislation right now. It is truly unfortunate and tragic, but it's also an opportunity for Christians
00:35:41.120
who haven't yet found their voice or who have already been courageously pushing back against this to
00:35:47.300
kind of renew our vigor and our eagerness to speak up for the most vulnerable. There is legislation in
00:35:55.180
Maryland, Colorado. You already touched on the Colorado legislation. I think that we talked about
00:36:00.160
the Maryland legislation last week. And then there have been bills recently to expand abortion access,
00:36:06.900
which is really kind of just a euphemism in California and New Jersey. Abortion coverage
00:36:13.380
has expanded in private insurance plans. There have been 22 bills introduced in 11 states,
00:36:19.040
California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Nebraska, New Jersey,
00:36:23.420
New York, Rhode Island, Wisconsin. There are also many blue states that are trying to legalize
00:36:29.340
at-home abortions through abortion pills that are sent by mail. This is all, I'm guessing,
00:36:34.480
because they're afraid that Roe v. Wade is going to be overturned. So they're trying to,
00:36:38.400
I guess, enshrine abortion access into law. What's your take on all of that? And how should we respond
00:36:47.000
strategically? Well, I first of all, speaking, you know, as we were as Christians, this is,
00:36:54.800
this is, I believe, demonic. You know, what's happening is demonic. Abortion's always been demonic
00:37:01.180
because it is the destruction of God's image, the destruction of a child. It's the profound lie and
00:37:06.380
fear that's spoken over a woman and some of her most vulnerable moments when she needs the most
00:37:11.040
support. And I don't think we should be surprised that this is happening. You know, the abortion
00:37:16.180
industry has never been about compromise. The abortion lobby, Planned Parenthood, has never been
00:37:21.560
about rationality. They've always been science deniers, if you want to use that popular term,
00:37:27.360
denying the reality of humanity in the womb. You know, there's part of this mysticism that says that
00:37:32.200
abortion doesn't kill, that life begins at birth. You know, what more mystical idea is that? It's
00:37:38.680
silly. It's not, it's, you know, completely inaccurate. And we should not be surprised that
00:37:43.880
they are all out radicalized and working to implement some of the most insane public policy
00:37:51.820
and laws in the country that our country has ever seen. But this is the fruit of Roe v. Wade, Ali. I mean,
00:37:57.460
I know your listeners are very educated and I'm sure they, many of them know this, but Roe v. Wade in
00:38:02.180
1973, when that was, that Supreme Court case was decided. And then the companion case was decided
00:38:07.780
shortly after Doe v. Bolton. These cases together effectively legalized abortion through all nine
00:38:15.540
months for any reason. So it basically said that if a woman had enough of a reason, personally,
00:38:21.700
emotionally, mentally, socioeconomically, and she and her doctor, presumably the abortionist,
00:38:27.460
agreed to it, there should be no limit on when or how she has an abortion or for what reason.
00:38:33.040
So that permits abortion through all nine months. So what these states are doing, and they're saying,
00:38:36.520
well, we're just protecting existing abortion rights. You know, like if you, if you, I was
00:38:41.620
tweeting about the Colorado law yesterday, as an example, that the governor of Colorado just signed
00:38:45.740
into law and what would legalize abortion through all nine months. I mean, it's already largely legal
00:38:51.020
through nine months in Colorado, but he, he further codified it without any conscience protections.
00:38:56.680
So that means if you're a medical professional, because he codified abortion as a right. Now, if
00:39:02.220
you're a medical professional denying a woman, a right, you know, if you're an OBGYN and you don't want
00:39:06.380
to commit an abortion on a baby that you could potentially be sued for that because you're
00:39:10.500
denying this woman, her right, you know, there's no conscience protections in the law, but that's the
00:39:15.100
fruit, direct fruit of Roe v. Wade. And so I would, again, we should not be surprised by any of this.
00:39:20.500
We should be heartbroken by it. We should be outraged by it. We should educate on it. We
00:39:27.460
should advocate against it. I am very hopeful that this is the sort of the dying scream of the
00:39:34.660
abortion industry right now. They are screaming through this legislation, through their friends
00:39:39.880
in media and politics. I mean, even the media coverage of the story of the five babies that
00:39:44.040
have been found in DC and that need justice that are, their remains are with, their bodies are with
00:39:48.100
the medical examiner's office and we need to call them and order that autopsy to be done and justice
00:39:52.440
to be served. Even the media coverage of that story has, Ali, has been insane. The CBS news affiliate
00:39:59.580
has been attacking the activists, has been, you know, pulled in some rando experts and pro-abortion
00:40:04.800
ladies saying that, you know, late-term abortion is fine, you know, just like not even no, no, no inch
00:40:11.680
of journalistic integrity or curiosity. No, like, oh, you know, what was the condition of the
00:40:16.820
baby's bodies? If these are nearly full-term infants, how do we know that it wasn't infanticide?
00:40:21.560
How do you, if you find the body of a nearly full-term infant and you just like tuck it away
00:40:27.600
and, and the, you know, you give it to the police, the police just say like, oh, oh, hot potato. I'm
00:40:31.560
not, I don't know what to do. Okay. Tuck it away. What you, you just leave a, you find a body of a
00:40:36.160
nearly full-term infant and you do nothing. Right. The authorities do nothing. I mean,
00:40:40.300
what a tremendous dereliction of their duty. They're completely, uh, shirking their duty to
00:40:47.460
investigate what might be a murder case. And I think it is a murder case in DC. So, you know,
00:40:54.080
we should not be surprised of the extremism here. Our response should be expose the works of evil,
00:41:00.320
expose, expose, expose them, um, do it lovingly, patiently, boldly, you know, do it faithfully.
00:41:06.880
It's hard. I know you've been doing it for years, Allie. I know many of your listeners do it
00:41:10.980
themselves and I know it's hard. You it's, it's personally emotionally draining people like,
00:41:16.900
you know, don't want to listen. They get upset, whatever. Um, but I guarantee you we're making
00:41:21.540
progress. I guarantee you. And we've seen it. I mean, there have been, there has been more pro-life
00:41:26.900
legislation in the last two years than in the entire history of the, of the pro-life movement,
00:41:30.800
more pro-life legislation, historic gain in pro-life laws, historic. And even the pro-abortion
00:41:36.520
side is admitting this and saying it's the worst year yet, worst year yet, you know, last year is
00:41:40.500
worst, worst year ever for pro for the, you know, pro-choice cause that's good. And Roe v. Wade may
00:41:46.900
be on the chalky chopping block right now. I know you've already done episodes on that, explaining
00:41:50.920
that, but you know, this case that we are a Dobbs v. Jackson that has been heard and it's going to be
00:41:56.240
decided very likely we'll cut at the heart of Roe v. Wade and further empower states that are just
00:42:04.240
to enact pro-life laws. And then on a cultural perspective, I think the more the works of evil
00:42:10.460
are exposed, the more people wake up, the more many have the opportunity to turn and become
00:42:17.400
pro-life. And I do see that happening. Live action is privileged to be on the front lines of that.
00:42:22.720
You know, our job is to go out there and we reach millions of people every week with the truth about
00:42:26.380
abortion and human life. And we see hearts and minds change all the time. And it's very encouraging.
00:42:31.960
You know, I was pro-choice now I'm pro-life. Oh my gosh, I had no idea. That's how abortion was
00:42:35.820
done. And I know you get that on your show too, Ali, you're changing hearts and minds. And it's
00:42:40.720
because, you know, we're not out there just with our opinions here. I mean, we have opinions,
00:42:44.920
but we're out there sharing truth that we've been entrusted with. You know, I'm not better than
00:42:48.920
anyone else, but I've been given the opportunity to learn. And I want to give other people that
00:42:53.320
opportunity too, because we live in a culture of lies. And the more that people learn, the more that
00:42:58.560
people see the truth for what it is, and we can change this. You know, we can make this country
00:43:04.080
pro-life. And I think with God's grace and his mercy, which there's plenty of it, we're well on our way.
00:43:14.320
Look, I, just a few years ago, was someone who thought that I supported abortion exceptions. I mean,
00:43:21.280
a few years ago, several years ago, and I still considered myself pro-life. What changed my mind?
00:43:27.060
Literally just thinking about it. Now, obviously the power of the Holy Spirit through sanctification
00:43:32.140
and changing my heart. And I'm sure that maybe live action had something to do that. I don't
00:43:36.400
remember if there was any specific video or time that I saw it, but I think I actually posted something
00:43:41.820
about maybe being okay with abortion and rape or incest. And I got some pushback on it. Literally,
00:43:47.480
I just hadn't really thought about it. That why would the circumstances surrounding someone's
00:43:53.000
conception change whether or not they should be subject to the death penalty as a child?
00:43:57.660
That didn't make any sense. And yet, I just really hadn't weighed the logic. It just
00:44:02.060
kind of sounded like maybe it was reasonable or a moderate or a nuanced position to have.
00:44:07.380
I think that's the position that a lot of people find themselves in. They just haven't thought about
00:44:12.880
it. They really just haven't thought about it. They don't know what abortion really entails.
00:44:17.140
And people will say, as you mentioned earlier, when you explain what an abortion procedure literally
00:44:23.000
is, which is brutal. It's just brutal in every single case. People will say that you're lying as
00:44:28.780
if abortion could be done through non-brutal means, as if you could kill a child in the womb through
00:44:34.180
like fairy dust or something like that. But people should really take courage in what you're saying
00:44:39.340
that when the truth is on your side, when you don't have to use euphemisms,
00:44:44.440
when you don't have to use rhetorical tricks, when you don't have to cover up what is actually
00:44:49.220
happening, but science and pregnancy, everything we know about fetal development and gestation,
00:44:56.880
when the procedure itself all helps our case, then you know that you're on the right side.
00:45:04.560
And as you mentioned earlier, it's okay if people get angry. Yeah, people are going to get angry at
00:45:08.940
the truth. That is not your indication of whether or not you're being obedient to God.
00:45:12.740
Jesus is described as being full of grace and truth. Stephen is described as being full of
00:45:17.980
grace and truth. We know how their lives ended. They did not win most popular here on earth,
00:45:23.660
and yet they were fully obedient to God till the end. So we have to judge our obedience not by what
00:45:28.560
other people say, but by what God says. And I think you're such a great example of that. And
00:45:34.040
I'm just very thankful. I'm very thankful for what you do. So any final thoughts? And where can people
00:45:41.120
find you and support you if they don't already follow you?
00:45:44.580
Thank you, Allie. And thanks for being a bold voice, that consistent and just very, I think,
00:45:50.900
just shepherding of people because people need to be, I think today there's so much noise and it needs
00:45:58.220
to just be broken down. People need to help connect the dots, help break things down. I think you're
00:46:02.760
right. Using our minds, you know, God gave us our minds. Critical thinking is our best friend right now
00:46:07.440
to wade through the mess out there. And if we just give ourselves a beat to take a pause and say,
00:46:12.660
okay, does this make logical sense? Let me think this through. That will really serve us. And it
00:46:17.860
certainly has served me. And I know it served you. And you just said it served you in a huge way on
00:46:21.240
the abortion issue to actually take a beat and think about it. Because everyone's just railing against,
00:46:25.180
you know, pro-life or they're railing with their opinion instead of taking that pause to think.
00:46:29.500
Just some final thoughts. I mean, we are, you know, I don't know when this episode is coming
00:46:35.440
out. When is this episode coming out? Today. You are awesome. Okay. So it's coming out today. It's
00:46:40.940
Tuesday. The bodies have been in the, the bodies of these five babies have been in the possession of
00:46:46.860
the DC police and medical examiner since last week. We're on, I think, day eight now, almost a full
00:46:52.560
week. And it is not too late for an autopsy to be performed. I don't know if the autopsy will be
00:46:58.680
able to properly see how the trauma was done to the baby's body and to determine the manner of
00:47:03.620
death, but there's a shot that it can. And it's their responsibility to do it and then allow the
00:47:08.200
remains to be given a proper burial. We can play a part in making that happen. Even with the autopsy,
00:47:13.940
the police still need to investigate Cesare Santangelo's clinic. I'm pretty confident that
00:47:20.140
if they did the right thing and investigated him, they will see him breaking, not just DC law,
00:47:25.520
but if the feds get in their federal law, that needs to happen ASAP. It should have happened
00:47:30.460
years ago. Children have died since then because of the failure of action. So if you're listening,
00:47:36.140
please take action, liveaction.org. You go to the live action Instagram or my Instagram,
00:47:41.340
and we have action items for you. Calling the medical examiner's office is one of the first
00:47:45.680
things that you can do to urge them to take action. There's going to be other action alerts
00:47:49.360
coming in the future. So please do that. There's a text action alert you can sign up for on the live
00:47:53.900
action page and on my page, and that will give you minute by minute or day by day things that you can
00:47:59.280
do. And I just encourage everyone, you know, this is a beautiful time to be alive. You know,
00:48:04.600
this is a dynamic time to be alive. We are so blessed. We're given God who's with us. He will
00:48:10.320
give us everything we need. There's a big drama playing out right now worldwide. And, you know,
00:48:16.360
God is with us. And do not be afraid. Do not feel overwhelmed. I know we can contend to that,
00:48:23.820
depending on how much news we're reading in any given day, but God foresaw all of this.
00:48:28.440
And He has a specific plan for every Christian right now in our role to play, in bringing hope,
00:48:35.580
bringing peace, you know, being the peace amidst the storm, the peace that only Christ can give us.
00:48:40.140
And by thinking, you know, not losing our heads, like you were saying, Allie, thinking critically
00:48:44.000
and being willing to speak out the truth that we do have, because that will help other people
00:48:48.680
think critically and other people to have peace in the midst of the storm. And I think the storm
00:48:52.700
will pass. I do think that this dark time, it's going to get better. I think that our brightest
00:48:57.880
days are ahead, both as a country, the United States and as a world. I do think that God will
00:49:02.940
bring many more souls to Him and we can be part of that. And so, you know, keep your peace,
00:49:07.020
don't lose your head. And please call the DC Medical Examiner's office and join us in this particular
00:49:12.200
fight because we want justice for these five children and, and may the justice for them
00:49:16.140
help bring about justice for other children. Yes. Thank you so much for that optimism and that
00:49:20.700
hope that something that we need, especially right now. I also encourage people to pick up your book.
00:49:25.160
It's called Fighting for Life. And I think you can get it wherever books are sold. We have it in our
00:49:29.160
house. It's a great book. It's very encouraging and empowering. So thank you so much. Thanks for taking
00:49:34.620
the time to come on. I know this is going to edify a lot of people. Thanks so much, Allie.