Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 600 ｜ Debate： Is Death Row Inmate Melissa Lucio Innocent？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:01.860 Happy Thursday.

00:00:03.180 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:05.800 American meat delivered right to your front door.

00:00:08.020 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:09.780 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:21.000 All right, guys.

00:00:22.260 Today, I've got a fiery episode for you.

00:00:25.160 A heated exchange, but a respectful exchange

00:00:28.080 between me and a Republican state legislator.

00:00:31.480 His name is Representative Jeff Leach.

00:00:33.940 And we are talking about the case of Melissa Lucio.

00:00:38.140 She is a Texas woman who is on death row.

00:00:41.560 She was convicted in 2008 of murdering

00:00:44.020 her two-year-old daughter, Mariah.

00:00:46.460 Representative Jeff Leach, 82 other state representatives

00:00:50.460 who are both Republican and Democrat,

00:00:53.440 including The Innocence Project, Kim Kardashian,

00:00:55.980 and a Hulu documentary are all saying,

00:00:58.360 whoa, whoa, whoa, we think this woman is innocent.

00:01:01.040 We don't think that she had a fair trial.

00:01:03.400 We need to at least place a pause on her execution.

00:01:08.460 She is set to be executed in 13 days.

00:01:11.700 Here's why we're having this discussion.

00:01:14.200 Representative Leach believes her to be innocent.

00:01:16.820 He at least believes that she didn't have a fair trial.

00:01:19.820 I believe that the evidence is stacked against her.

00:01:22.280 Really, my biggest contention isn't whether or not

00:01:25.800 she should be executed in 13 days.

00:01:27.760 Maybe there should be a pause.

00:01:29.100 Maybe you do have some contention about how the case went.

00:01:32.340 I believe that everyone should have a fair trial.

00:01:34.760 I believe that everyone has a right to not just a defense,

00:01:37.300 but also a good legitimate defense.

00:01:39.680 That's fine.

00:01:40.700 What I contend with here,

00:01:42.980 and you'll hear this in the conversation

00:01:44.500 that we are going to have that I just recorded,

00:01:47.120 is this assertion that she is innocent completely,

00:01:52.560 that there is no evidence of physical abuse of her child,

00:01:57.480 that she was just this loving, wonderful mother,

00:02:00.040 and that this crime actually never happened,

00:02:03.260 that it was just a tragedy.

00:02:04.480 And that is what the Innocence Project is saying.

00:02:09.180 She says that,

00:02:10.440 or the Innocence Project says that this was a tragedy,

00:02:14.740 that it was not a crime,

00:02:16.820 and that the judge excluded expert testimony

00:02:19.260 on the effects of trauma,

00:02:20.820 which deprived Melissa of a defense.

00:02:23.620 But as the appellate court later said,

00:02:25.840 that's actually not true.

00:02:27.800 That's not true that the expert testimony

00:02:29.500 that would have had any bearing whatsoever

00:02:31.400 on Melissa's defense was excluded.

00:02:34.240 So there have been two opportunities to appeal,

00:02:40.200 two efforts to appeal this case,

00:02:42.200 and the appellate courts have upheld the decision

00:02:45.320 and said, no, we actually think this trial was legitimate

00:02:48.020 and that the sentence was just.

00:02:50.060 However, the Innocence Project says this never happened.

00:02:53.640 This was a result,

00:02:54.760 the entire trial was a result of a series of injustices,

00:02:57.760 failures of the criminal legal system,

00:02:59.760 and generational trauma.

00:03:01.380 The state of Texas,

00:03:02.740 the Innocence Project says,

00:03:04.900 presented no physical evidence

00:03:06.640 that established Melissa had ever abused Mariah

00:03:09.200 or any of her children,

00:03:10.900 as you will hear me say in this interview,

00:03:13.220 that is absolutely false.

00:03:15.740 Vanessa Potkin of the Innocence Project

00:03:17.460 says that the conviction rests

00:03:19.580 on false and erroneous medical evidence

00:03:21.680 and that there's important new scientific evidence.

00:03:24.780 And Potkin also told USA Today

00:03:26.520 that there were no visible signs of injury

00:03:29.120 at the time that Mariah was found by the paramedics.

00:03:32.480 That is a blatant lie

00:03:34.380 based on not just what the defense attorney,

00:03:36.660 her defense attorney admitted to in court

00:03:39.000 that she was a negligent mother,

00:03:40.700 that she was an abusive mother.

00:03:43.900 She confessed to these things.

00:03:46.280 On tape, she confessed to abusing her daughter,

00:03:49.740 to hitting her daughter,

00:03:51.120 to smacking her daughter.

00:03:52.500 She said that she pinched her daughter's vagina.

00:03:54.660 She said that she bit her daughter twice on the back.

00:03:56.980 She admitted to these things.

00:03:58.640 The defense attorney owns up to the fact

00:04:00.640 that she admitted to these things.

00:04:03.100 Also, she has a long history with CPS,

00:04:05.440 going back to the mid-1990s.

00:04:08.280 She has several children,

00:04:09.660 I think 14 children at this point.

00:04:11.640 And from the mid-90s onward,

00:04:13.320 she had been found that she had been negligent

00:04:14.880 toward her children,

00:04:15.800 that she had abused her children.

00:04:17.400 In 2004, this, of course,

00:04:19.800 is when Mariah was a baby

00:04:21.100 before she was, I believe, murdered in 2007.

00:04:26.560 The CPS worker at the time,

00:04:28.440 she records in an affidavit

00:04:30.040 that all of her children were neglected,

00:04:32.140 that it was an insect-infested place.

00:04:35.060 We're not just talking about people living in poverty.

00:04:37.360 We're talking about little children

00:04:38.620 running around without any diapers,

00:04:40.160 without any underwear on,

00:04:41.580 apparently had dried feces all over them.

00:04:44.620 There were ants crawling all over the baby.

00:04:47.120 I mean, this is Melissa Lucio.

00:04:48.820 This is who we're talking about.

00:04:50.600 And so, again,

00:04:51.540 maybe you think that she is not guilty.

00:04:53.980 Maybe you think that she is not guilty of murder.

00:04:56.260 But to say,

00:04:57.100 as the Innocence Project is,

00:04:58.320 as the state representatives seem to be saying,

00:05:00.620 as the clemency petition is saying,

00:05:02.480 that she is completely innocent,

00:05:04.040 that there has been no troubling history,

00:05:06.320 no important context that we need to consider

00:05:08.860 when it comes to deciding

00:05:10.320 whether or not this person is guilty,

00:05:12.220 that is a blatant lie.

00:05:13.900 That is my problem with all of this,

00:05:15.600 that it seems like a lot of propaganda

00:05:17.740 and that we're not owning up to the fact

00:05:20.560 that she actually does have

00:05:21.860 a very troubling history of violence

00:05:24.720 and abuse and neglect,

00:05:26.500 not to mention the fact that

00:05:28.460 multiple times when CPS visited her,

00:05:30.780 she tested positive for cocaine use,

00:05:32.460 but also her children

00:05:33.500 tested positive for cocaine use.

00:05:36.360 Now, none of those things make her guilty

00:05:38.080 of the crime that she is said

00:05:40.280 to have committed in 2007,

00:05:41.860 but I do think it's important context.

00:05:43.540 So that is what we are going to be debating today.

00:05:46.240 We are going to be debating,

00:05:47.380 yes, the facts of the case,

00:05:48.340 but also how did the procedure go down?

00:05:51.020 Why does it seem like these organizations

00:05:52.760 are painting her as this loving mother

00:05:55.120 when it doesn't seem like the evidence proves that?

00:05:58.600 At the end of the day, though,

00:06:00.020 and this is why this conversation

00:06:02.760 is going to end well.

00:06:05.060 It might be intense at times.

00:06:06.260 Maybe you feel yourself kind of tensing up

00:06:08.480 because I believe,

00:06:11.140 at least when it comes to Representative Leach,

00:06:12.900 I can't speak for the Innocence Project.

00:06:14.720 You guys know I did a whole podcast

00:06:15.960 on Julius Jones

00:06:17.020 and how they lied about that case.

00:06:18.660 We can link it in the description of this episode.

00:06:20.820 I actually think that they are extremely deceitful

00:06:23.380 as an organization, unfortunately.

00:06:25.300 But when it comes to Representative Leach,

00:06:27.500 whose heart I trust

00:06:29.200 and whose motivations I believe are pure,

00:06:32.200 we both want justice.

00:06:33.820 Okay, we want justice.

00:06:34.960 We want God's definition

00:06:36.340 of what justice looks like.

00:06:38.500 I think we both believe in the truth.

00:06:41.220 And that's why it's so important, I think,

00:06:43.400 for us to hash this out,

00:06:46.100 for us to talk about this.

00:06:47.880 And so, yes, we do kind of disagree,

00:06:50.160 but you'll see in this conversation,

00:06:52.640 like, I learned some things.

00:06:54.500 And he certainly challenged me effectively.

00:06:58.860 Representative, thank you so much

00:07:00.560 for joining us in studio.

00:07:02.020 For those who don't know,

00:07:02.920 can you tell us who you are and what you do?

00:07:04.360 Sure, Allie, it's great to be with you.

00:07:05.980 And my name is State Representative Jeff Leach.

00:07:08.960 I'm in my fifth term serving in the Texas House,

00:07:11.300 part of Collin County,

00:07:12.520 just north of Dallas,

00:07:13.400 and chairman of the House Judiciary Committee

00:07:15.440 and chairman of the House Criminal Justice Reform Committee

00:07:19.020 as well.

00:07:20.020 And so I'm very proud to serve

00:07:21.360 200,000 constituents just north of Dallas

00:07:23.420 and Collin County

00:07:24.100 and strong conservative record.

00:07:25.880 And we've got a lot of important work ahead of us

00:07:27.740 to keep Texas strong and free.

00:07:30.060 Yes, I think some people may be surprised

00:07:32.240 to find a conservative Republican

00:07:34.580 kind of on the front lines of a story

00:07:37.720 that is in the news right now.

00:07:39.080 And that is about a woman on death row in Texas,

00:07:41.500 Melissa Lucio.

00:07:42.560 And you have fought really hard

00:07:44.980 against her death sentence

00:07:46.640 because from what you've said,

00:07:48.360 you believe her to be innocent

00:07:49.780 and you believe the system has failed her.

00:07:52.180 So can you talk about,

00:07:53.100 before we get into the ins and outs of the case,

00:07:55.000 can you talk about how you got involved

00:07:57.200 in this particular case?

00:07:59.460 Well, I think it's important for all Americans,

00:08:03.180 all Texans,

00:08:03.700 but really for conservatives

00:08:04.640 who care about life and liberty

00:08:06.460 and the rule of law and public safety

00:08:09.060 to care deeply about criminal justice reform.

00:08:12.240 So yes, this issue and issues relating

00:08:14.360 to the death penalty

00:08:15.180 and the way we, no pun intended,

00:08:18.600 execute the death penalty in Texas are important,

00:08:20.940 but so are all of these other

00:08:22.060 great criminal justice issues

00:08:23.320 that conservatives, in my opinion,

00:08:24.620 should be leading on.

00:08:25.680 We saw that in the Trump administration

00:08:27.100 with the Second Chance Act

00:08:29.220 and with getting people back in their homes

00:08:31.400 and out of prisons

00:08:32.200 who are no threat to society,

00:08:33.520 who've paid their debt

00:08:34.400 and back to being productive taxpaying citizens.

00:08:37.960 So that's what you mean

00:08:38.840 when you're talking about criminal justice reform,

00:08:40.500 because that's a wide umbrella

00:08:41.760 that could also include

00:08:43.140 some really disastrous policy

00:08:45.280 like bail reform,

00:08:46.760 like we've seen in Houston

00:08:47.860 that has been totally disastrous.

00:08:50.400 So when you're talking

00:08:52.500 about criminal justice reform,

00:08:53.980 specifically, what are you referring to?

00:08:56.180 Well, so I want a policy in Texas

00:08:58.200 that is tough on crime,

00:09:00.520 but smart on crime.

00:09:01.780 We've gotten really good in this country

00:09:03.200 and in this state

00:09:04.020 for locking people up

00:09:05.900 that we're just mad at

00:09:06.820 instead of those people

00:09:07.460 that we're scared of.

00:09:08.280 Now, when there are crimes

00:09:10.220 that are committed,

00:09:10.920 when people are harmed,

00:09:11.780 when there's property crimes,

00:09:12.700 when people commit a crime

00:09:14.380 and are convicted

00:09:14.940 by a jury of their peers,

00:09:16.020 they have to pay their consequences,

00:09:17.280 no doubt about it.

00:09:18.460 And we need a system

00:09:19.400 that protects that framework.

00:09:22.460 But at the end of the day,

00:09:23.700 if someone,

00:09:24.520 if there's a dad in prison

00:09:25.560 that is no threat to society,

00:09:27.120 that's paid his debt,

00:09:28.000 that's made his victim whole,

00:09:29.640 that can get back home

00:09:31.320 with his kids

00:09:32.060 who are being raised

00:09:33.020 in fatherless homes,

00:09:33.960 who could be a productive

00:09:34.740 taxpaying citizen,

00:09:35.680 who can just be part of society,

00:09:39.500 if we can do that,

00:09:40.260 we should do that.

00:09:41.220 And we've seen Republicans

00:09:42.340 and Democrats,

00:09:43.200 conservatives and liberals

00:09:43.940 come together on those issues.

00:09:45.700 Allie, of course,

00:09:46.280 there's a lot of issues

00:09:46.860 on which we disagree.

00:09:48.340 You know,

00:09:49.180 some of the efforts

00:09:50.080 to legalize drugs

00:09:51.960 across the nation,

00:09:52.940 I'm firmly against those efforts

00:09:54.660 and others that we could talk about.

00:09:56.700 But I think just conservatives

00:09:58.280 should be leading on this.

00:09:59.780 It's about freedom and liberty

00:10:01.320 and life and the rule of law

00:10:02.900 and making sure our streets

00:10:04.040 and our schools

00:10:04.900 and our communities are safe.

00:10:06.760 And so that's why I care about it.

00:10:08.300 I've cared about it for a long time.

00:10:09.560 And I think Republicans

00:10:10.720 have a unique opportunity

00:10:11.700 to lead on this issue.

00:10:13.300 I think it's difficult

00:10:13.980 because from the conservative perspective

00:10:16.160 and maybe just from the perspective

00:10:17.580 of the average person,

00:10:18.600 we're seeing crime rates go up

00:10:19.880 and the recidivism rate is so high.

00:10:21.720 And so often when we see

00:10:23.260 these violent criminals

00:10:24.140 that commit these heinous crimes,

00:10:26.660 well, they've been arrested

00:10:27.700 several times

00:10:28.560 or they had a progressive judge

00:10:30.140 or a progressive DA

00:10:31.260 not really do their jobs

00:10:33.240 in the name of criminal justice,

00:10:34.720 in the name of bail reform

00:10:35.840 or whatever it is.

00:10:36.880 I know that's not

00:10:37.560 what you're talking about,

00:10:38.760 but I think that it can be

00:10:40.320 a difficult issue

00:10:41.200 for conservatives

00:10:41.920 because yes, of course,

00:10:43.180 we believe in liberty.

00:10:44.100 I don't want anyone

00:10:44.880 doing time past what they should.

00:10:47.060 I want them to pay

00:10:47.680 their consequences

00:10:48.360 and like you said,

00:10:49.500 be redeemed and restored

00:10:50.480 back into society.

00:10:52.280 But it's a little bit hard

00:10:53.840 for me to balance

00:10:54.880 when every single crime

00:10:56.960 that we see in the news,

00:10:58.120 it's like, wow,

00:10:58.660 the system failed the victim,

00:11:00.860 not the criminal

00:11:01.720 in that particular case

00:11:05.620 in the name of social justice

00:11:07.300 or equity.

00:11:07.940 That person was let back out

00:11:09.000 on the streets.

00:11:09.480 They never should have been.

00:11:10.760 Yeah, and I'm not interested

00:11:11.420 in those efforts

00:11:12.120 and in fact have worked

00:11:13.200 strongly against those efforts.

00:11:14.640 So if you look at

00:11:15.280 some of the things

00:11:16.280 that I've led on

00:11:16.840 in the criminal justice reform area

00:11:18.860 in the Texas House,

00:11:19.740 it's protecting victims

00:11:20.800 of sexual assault,

00:11:21.720 of child abuse and neglect,

00:11:23.400 making sure that our laws

00:11:24.860 are strong

00:11:25.640 to hold those responsible.

00:11:27.220 Human trafficking,

00:11:27.880 I mean,

00:11:28.880 we have escalated penalties.

00:11:30.480 We have created new crimes.

00:11:33.360 Our penal code has grown.

00:11:35.060 It has not shrunk.

00:11:36.580 And so we need to make sure

00:11:37.940 that people who are a danger

00:11:39.360 to their families,

00:11:40.540 to their kids,

00:11:41.160 to anyone in society,

00:11:42.080 that they're off the streets,

00:11:43.620 that they can't get

00:11:45.540 out of prison early.

00:11:46.260 What's happened in Harris County

00:11:47.200 with bail reform

00:11:47.800 is a colossal disaster.

00:11:49.520 And we've worked hard

00:11:50.420 in Austin to correct that

00:11:52.020 and address it

00:11:52.720 and to hold local prosecutors

00:11:54.580 accountable

00:11:55.080 accountable

00:11:55.660 because we want to make sure

00:11:58.360 public safety is paramount,

00:11:59.640 supporting law enforcement

00:12:00.560 is paramount,

00:12:01.380 and we want to lock up

00:12:03.180 the bad guys.

00:12:03.820 There's no question about it.

00:12:04.940 A lot of people

00:12:05.360 who need to be in prison

00:12:06.240 and never need to be let out.

00:12:09.220 But at the same time,

00:12:10.520 at the same time,

00:12:11.400 we conservatives

00:12:12.060 who believe in second chances,

00:12:14.180 not for everybody,

00:12:15.460 but people who deserve

00:12:17.020 a second chance

00:12:17.640 and have proven

00:12:18.240 they've deserved a second chance

00:12:19.360 where they're no threat at all

00:12:20.460 and their victims are made whole.

00:12:22.060 I think that we ought

00:12:22.960 to not be afraid

00:12:23.820 of the conversation

00:12:24.680 as to how we can restore them,

00:12:27.360 not only for their own good,

00:12:28.540 but for the benefit of society

00:12:29.860 and for their own families.

00:12:30.980 And I just have not been afraid

00:12:32.120 to have those conversations.

00:12:34.080 And Melissa Lucio,

00:12:34.980 in your opinion,

00:12:36.280 is she someone

00:12:36.940 that deserves a second chance?

00:12:38.420 So I actually have not opined

00:12:40.720 on whether Melissa Lucio

00:12:42.420 is innocent or guilty.

00:12:43.560 I have not.

00:12:44.280 You won't find any public statement

00:12:45.580 from me that says

00:12:46.420 that she's innocent.

00:12:47.100 I do believe that the facts

00:12:48.660 that she deserves a new trial.

00:12:51.820 I do believe that there is

00:12:53.040 a multitude,

00:12:54.060 a mountain of exculpatory evidence

00:12:55.560 that was not heard

00:12:56.360 in the initial trial

00:12:57.140 that needs to be held.

00:12:58.560 I spent time with Melissa.

00:12:59.760 I've spent hours and hours,

00:13:01.160 days and days,

00:13:01.840 reviewing her case.

00:13:03.240 I believe strongly

00:13:03.920 that she was,

00:13:04.740 the system failed her,

00:13:06.100 Allie,

00:13:06.380 at every single turn

00:13:07.280 and failed not only her,

00:13:08.680 but Mariah,

00:13:09.680 who is the victim,

00:13:10.860 her daughter,

00:13:11.320 who's the victim

00:13:11.740 of this terrible tragedy.

00:13:13.260 But I am not the fact finder.

00:13:14.780 I'm a policymaker.

00:13:15.660 I'm a legislator.

00:13:16.520 I am not the judge

00:13:17.620 or the jury

00:13:18.160 or the prosecutor,

00:13:19.980 but I reviewed

00:13:21.020 what happened in her case

00:13:22.180 and in her trial

00:13:22.820 and believe so strongly

00:13:23.840 that the system failed her.

00:13:26.480 And, you know,

00:13:27.100 here we are just several days,

00:13:28.720 13 days away

00:13:29.360 from her scheduled execution date.

00:13:31.160 And let's not mince words.

00:13:32.600 The state is getting ready

00:13:33.500 to murder someone

00:13:34.760 who is potentially innocent.

00:13:36.760 And I believe very strongly

00:13:38.220 that she deserves a new trial.

00:13:40.200 Okay.

00:13:40.700 So you did say

00:13:41.520 that you have never seen

00:13:42.520 a case more troubling

00:13:43.480 than that of Melissa Lucio,

00:13:45.480 Rep. Jeff Leach said,

00:13:47.320 we got to use that voice

00:13:48.920 to save an innocent person.

00:13:51.440 So do you believe...

00:13:52.520 To save a potential...

00:13:53.560 I don't know what statement

00:13:54.280 you're reading.

00:13:54.720 To save a potentially

00:13:55.560 innocent person.

00:13:56.680 That's been the vast majority

00:13:59.200 of my statements

00:13:59.840 have not opined

00:14:00.620 on her innocence or guilt.

00:14:03.260 Now, if...

00:14:04.000 Now, you did tweet

00:14:04.860 that you believe

00:14:05.740 that this is a crime

00:14:06.600 that wasn't committed,

00:14:07.720 that it wasn't a murder.

00:14:09.080 That's also what

00:14:09.740 the Innocence Project

00:14:10.380 is saying,

00:14:11.080 that this is a tragedy.

00:14:11.900 There's evidence

00:14:12.280 that shows that it was not.

00:14:13.820 There's evidence

00:14:14.300 that was never admitted

00:14:15.080 into trial.

00:14:15.820 People who actually saw

00:14:16.780 what happened,

00:14:18.080 that she fell down the stairs,

00:14:21.700 that she was not pushed.

00:14:22.640 There's even evidence out there

00:14:23.660 that Melissa was not even there

00:14:24.740 at the time.

00:14:25.420 None of this made it

00:14:26.060 into the initial trial.

00:14:27.020 None of it.

00:14:27.940 And there's the interrogation,

00:14:31.100 the tactics that were used,

00:14:32.180 the coercion

00:14:32.860 is extremely troubling.

00:14:35.480 Her lack of adequate

00:14:37.720 defense counsel.

00:14:39.780 Look, every Texan

00:14:41.360 deserves a fair trial.

00:14:43.800 Every Texan deserves

00:14:44.800 a fair trial.

00:14:45.440 They have that constitutional right

00:14:46.840 to a fair trial

00:14:47.580 of their peers

00:14:48.420 in front of a jury

00:14:49.040 of their peers.

00:14:49.580 And I do not believe

00:14:50.360 that Melissa Lucio

00:14:51.900 got that,

00:14:53.820 that that was afforded to her.

00:14:54.800 In fact, I think the system

00:14:55.760 failed her multiple times

00:14:57.060 all throughout the process.

00:14:58.580 So even,

00:14:59.100 it was appealed twice,

00:15:00.400 2011,

00:15:01.800 they rejected the appeal.

00:15:03.840 On procedural.

00:15:04.480 And then in 2021,

00:15:07.220 they also upheld the sentence

00:15:08.860 and they went through,

00:15:09.920 and in 2016,

00:15:11.140 they also went through

00:15:11.760 every single argument

00:15:13.360 that the defense was making,

00:15:14.480 that the appellant was making.

00:15:16.300 And they,

00:15:17.720 the appellant,

00:15:18.940 gave the arguments

00:15:19.940 that you are giving

00:15:20.680 that, look,

00:15:21.780 they excluded some evidence.

00:15:23.080 They excluded the witnesses

00:15:24.000 that we wanted to.

00:15:24.920 And the court went through

00:15:26.460 every single one

00:15:27.420 of those arguments

00:15:28.060 and explained why,

00:15:29.940 no,

00:15:30.420 it actually was

00:15:31.340 a legitimate process.

00:15:32.320 So you think

00:15:33.360 the system failed,

00:15:34.080 not just in trial court,

00:15:35.600 but also we're talking about

00:15:37.120 in the Fifth Circuit

00:15:38.160 of Appeals as well.

00:15:39.040 You believe that

00:15:39.520 the whole process

00:15:40.160 was wrong,

00:15:41.900 corrupt or what?

00:15:42.560 Yes, I do.

00:15:43.220 Okay.

00:15:43.540 I do.

00:15:44.180 And I believe

00:15:45.120 that the facts

00:15:46.760 overwhelmingly show

00:15:47.800 that our federal courts,

00:15:49.480 the Fifth Circuit,

00:15:50.460 federal law

00:15:50.920 needs to be changed.

00:15:51.780 It is very hard,

00:15:52.620 very hard

00:15:53.020 to overturn a conviction

00:15:54.140 based on any singular

00:15:56.060 piece of new evidence,

00:15:57.020 even a collaboration

00:15:58.740 of new evidence,

00:15:59.560 like in Melissa's case.

00:16:00.520 Her appeals were denied

00:16:02.140 essentially on procedural grounds.

00:16:03.960 I agree with the Reagan appointee

00:16:05.680 on the Fifth Circuit,

00:16:06.360 Judge Higginbotham,

00:16:07.200 who is one of the strongest

00:16:08.860 conservative justices

00:16:10.000 we have anywhere

00:16:10.560 in this country,

00:16:11.180 who said that the system

00:16:12.680 absolutely failed Melissa,

00:16:14.100 that this is a miscarriage

00:16:15.060 of justice.

00:16:15.660 I think those were

00:16:16.160 his words,

00:16:17.900 but their hands

00:16:18.740 were tied procedurally.

00:16:20.220 And so all I'm asking for,

00:16:21.480 I am not opining

00:16:22.600 on her innocence or guilt.

00:16:23.880 All I'm asking for

00:16:24.720 is for us to push

00:16:25.440 the pause button

00:16:26.160 before she's executed

00:16:27.480 and for us to work hard

00:16:28.940 to get her a new trial.

00:16:30.460 And the vast majority

00:16:31.740 of death penalty supporters

00:16:33.420 and opponents,

00:16:34.340 Allie,

00:16:34.920 agree with that.

00:16:36.060 We've gotten over 90

00:16:37.300 state representatives,

00:16:38.620 conservatives and liberals,

00:16:39.760 death penalty opponents

00:16:40.620 and supporters

00:16:41.160 who've asked for a new trial

00:16:42.120 for her,

00:16:42.780 who've asked for the pause

00:16:43.540 button today.

00:16:44.560 20 state senators,

00:16:45.620 including the most Republican

00:16:46.680 state senators

00:16:47.720 and the most liberals

00:16:48.560 said,

00:16:49.220 look,

00:16:49.380 let's just push

00:16:49.880 the pause button here

00:16:50.740 to make sure

00:16:51.180 that we don't move forward

00:16:52.760 with this irreversible stain

00:16:54.160 on the Lone Star State,

00:16:55.260 and that's executing someone

00:16:56.220 who could be potentially

00:16:57.140 innocent.

00:16:58.140 So the letter that you signed

00:16:59.420 as well as you're included

00:17:00.720 in these 83 members

00:17:01.760 of the Texas House

00:17:02.520 of Representatives

00:17:03.240 and the clemency petition

00:17:04.500 that you had sent me.

00:17:05.980 So in the letter,

00:17:06.780 it said,

00:17:07.160 Mariah died after a tragic accident

00:17:09.040 rather than an intentional

00:17:10.180 capital murder,

00:17:11.360 Miss Lucio,

00:17:11.980 who had no documented history

00:17:13.440 of violence towards her children.

00:17:15.140 And the clemency petition says,

00:17:16.480 by all accounts,

00:17:17.120 Melissa was a loving mother

00:17:18.340 who never abused her children

00:17:20.220 as the children themselves

00:17:21.420 told the police.

00:17:22.200 So it actually does sound

00:17:23.320 like you are opining

00:17:24.520 on whether or not

00:17:25.260 she's innocent.

00:17:25.960 The statements that you have made,

00:17:27.700 at least to infer that

00:17:29.000 in the letter that you signed,

00:17:30.680 it says that she died

00:17:31.540 after a tragic accident

00:17:32.560 rather than intentional

00:17:33.540 capital murder.

00:17:34.320 So it sounds like you think

00:17:35.220 that she is innocent.

00:17:36.160 Oh, I definitely think

00:17:37.060 she's innocent,

00:17:37.640 but I'm not,

00:17:38.380 based on what I know,

00:17:40.000 but it's not my job

00:17:40.800 to declare her innocent.

00:17:42.080 Let me make that clarification.

00:17:43.500 I am not the judge or jury.

00:17:44.960 I cannot declare her,

00:17:46.340 nor can the Board of Pardons

00:17:48.140 and Paroles or Governor.

00:17:48.980 They could grant clemency

00:17:50.320 or commutation or a stay.

00:17:52.240 But what we're asking for,

00:17:53.660 this is about the process

00:17:54.680 more than it is

00:17:55.400 necessarily her conviction.

00:17:56.920 I believe the process

00:17:57.740 and the system has failed her

00:17:58.900 and she deserves a new trial.

00:18:00.040 If I was on the jury,

00:18:01.420 knowing what I know right now,

00:18:02.900 absolutely I would vote

00:18:03.820 for her innocence.

00:18:04.800 And there are five jurors,

00:18:06.060 five of the original jurors,

00:18:07.140 including the jury foreperson,

00:18:08.740 who felt like they were

00:18:09.560 misled by the prosecution,

00:18:11.380 that the process failed Melissa.

00:18:12.820 They regret not only convicting her,

00:18:15.580 but sentencing her to death.

00:18:17.000 They've said basically,

00:18:18.000 they've affirmed publicly,

00:18:18.900 that if they knew then

00:18:20.000 what they knew now,

00:18:20.620 there's no way they would have voted

00:18:21.600 the way they did.

00:18:22.740 And so I'm joining,

00:18:23.800 I'm joining the vast majority of folks

00:18:26.800 that I'm talking to,

00:18:27.700 conservatives and liberals,

00:18:28.880 death penalty opponents

00:18:29.720 and supporters,

00:18:30.360 like I've said,

00:18:30.880 who said, yeah,

00:18:31.500 there's a lot of evidence

00:18:32.440 that needs to be heard

00:18:33.280 that would lend support

00:18:34.580 to the fact that she's innocent.

00:18:39.980 And I am definitely open

00:18:41.660 to hearing that evidence

00:18:42.860 and those arguments.

00:18:44.140 What I have a really hard time with

00:18:46.180 is what the letter

00:18:48.160 from the state representatives

00:18:49.160 with the clemency petition

00:18:50.260 and then what the Innocence Project

00:18:51.480 is saying,

00:18:52.040 that there was no evidence of abuse,

00:18:54.020 that she seems to be,

00:18:55.640 she seems to be innocent

00:18:57.800 while seeming to exclude

00:19:00.140 a lot of evidence.

00:19:01.260 And I just want to read

00:19:02.120 just so people see,

00:19:03.300 this is the transcript

00:19:05.020 of the opinion of the judges

00:19:06.880 when the case was first appealed

00:19:09.600 and heard in 2011.

00:19:11.580 So one of the paramedics,

00:19:12.820 Mr. Nestor,

00:19:13.860 testified that when the paramedics entered,

00:19:15.640 and I'll definitely give you

00:19:16.780 a chance to respond to all of this,

00:19:18.620 entered their apartment,

00:19:19.660 they found Mariah unattended

00:19:20.900 and lying on her back

00:19:21.860 in the middle of the floor,

00:19:22.840 not breathing and with no pulse.

00:19:24.600 Nestor observed that the appellant's,

00:19:26.260 this is Lucio,

00:19:27.520 distant and not overly distressed behavior

00:19:29.460 was so far out of the ordinary

00:19:30.860 that he put it into the report.

00:19:32.660 He also testified that he noted

00:19:34.060 the fact that the appellant

00:19:35.000 was not even within arm's reach

00:19:36.800 of the child,

00:19:38.000 much less trying to grasp

00:19:39.560 or to hold her.

00:19:40.460 There were bruises

00:19:41.080 in various stages

00:19:42.060 of healing covering her body.

00:19:44.360 There were bite marks on her back.

00:19:46.320 One of her arms had been broken

00:19:47.600 probably two to seven weeks

00:19:48.920 before her death.

00:19:50.120 She was missing portions of her hair

00:19:51.460 where it had been pulled out

00:19:52.680 by the roots.

00:19:53.760 The emergency room physician,

00:19:55.460 Dr. Vargas,

00:19:56.840 testified that this was

00:19:58.300 the absolute worst case

00:19:59.560 of child abuse

00:20:00.260 that he had seen

00:20:00.940 in his 30 years of practice.

00:20:03.000 He also testified

00:20:03.880 that his emergency room visual

00:20:05.960 and manual inspection of Mariah

00:20:07.440 indicated that there may

00:20:09.460 or may not have been

00:20:10.680 a head injury.

00:20:11.540 But then the chief forensic pathologist

00:20:13.660 for Cameron and Hidalgo counties,

00:20:15.460 Dr. Farley,

00:20:16.580 who conducted the autopsy,

00:20:18.440 testified that Mariah's case

00:20:19.800 of death was blunt force head trauma,

00:20:23.000 that she had multiple contusions

00:20:24.240 to her head area,

00:20:25.520 and that blunt force head trauma

00:20:26.920 basically means beat about the head

00:20:28.560 with something,

00:20:29.240 an object,

00:20:30.380 a fist,

00:20:31.220 or slammed.

00:20:32.760 Appellant's recorded statement

00:20:33.860 reflects that she told

00:20:35.320 the police officers,

00:20:36.380 Texas Ranger Escalon,

00:20:37.860 that she and only she

00:20:39.140 had been spanking

00:20:39.960 or hitting Mariah

00:20:41.000 since sometime

00:20:42.020 after December 2006.

00:20:45.460 She said that she hit

00:20:46.680 or spanked her,

00:20:47.840 that she beat her

00:20:48.660 when she got angry,

00:20:50.580 and then she told a story

00:20:51.800 about how her other children

00:20:53.700 were jumping around.

00:20:54.580 She got frustrated.

00:20:55.560 She put her hand

00:20:56.320 over Mariah's mouth.

00:20:57.840 She bit her on the back

00:20:58.940 and dragged her teeth

00:21:00.180 down her back.

00:21:01.780 She testified,

00:21:02.900 recorded,

00:21:03.520 that she pinched

00:21:04.620 her daughter's vagina

00:21:05.840 and that she would sometimes

00:21:07.460 hit her daughter

00:21:08.500 or squeeze her arm

00:21:09.820 for no reason,

00:21:11.620 but the defense says,

00:21:13.800 the defense,

00:21:14.500 her defense attorney says,

00:21:16.140 yes,

00:21:16.420 she admitted to beating

00:21:17.200 her daughter.

00:21:18.000 Yes,

00:21:18.240 she admitted to biting

00:21:19.160 her daughter.

00:21:20.040 Yes,

00:21:20.300 she admitted to not being

00:21:21.220 a good mother.

00:21:22.180 Yes,

00:21:22.500 she admitted to neglecting

00:21:24.440 her mother,

00:21:25.080 but the defense simply said,

00:21:26.460 all I'm saying

00:21:27.320 was that she didn't

00:21:29.360 cause her daughter's death.

00:21:30.980 Now,

00:21:31.280 that is very different

00:21:32.620 than saying

00:21:33.860 what the Innocence Project

00:21:35.000 and what this letter

00:21:36.260 and the clemency petitions

00:21:37.460 is saying,

00:21:38.080 that she was a wonderful mother.

00:21:39.920 So,

00:21:40.360 what do I do

00:21:41.160 with all of that information?

00:21:43.560 Well,

00:21:44.200 all of that

00:21:46.080 has been contradicted

00:21:47.620 by contradictory

00:21:49.080 medical scientific evidence,

00:21:50.640 exculpatory evidence,

00:21:51.420 every single thing.

00:21:52.240 She admitted it on tape.

00:21:53.300 So,

00:21:53.620 again,

00:21:54.960 let's talk about the process,

00:21:56.240 okay?

00:21:56.580 They zoomed in

00:21:57.540 within two hours

00:21:58.560 of Mariah's death.

00:21:59.820 They zoomed in,

00:22:00.840 they zoned in

00:22:01.420 on Melissa

00:22:02.380 as the only suspect,

00:22:03.860 okay?

00:22:04.060 Within two hours,

00:22:05.220 she was being interrogated

00:22:06.360 by armed guards.

00:22:07.100 She had a history

00:22:07.680 of being abused as a child

00:22:08.960 and being sexually abused

00:22:10.000 and a victim

00:22:10.420 of domestic violence herself.

00:22:12.160 She was especially susceptible

00:22:14.160 to these coercive

00:22:15.360 interrogation tactics,

00:22:16.280 which today

00:22:16.940 in most states,

00:22:17.660 including Texas,

00:22:18.480 are outlawed.

00:22:19.700 Okay?

00:22:19.880 I've seen the video.

00:22:20.860 I've watched the video.

00:22:21.860 You had armed law enforcement

00:22:23.720 standing over her

00:22:25.060 for five hours.

00:22:26.280 She was pregnant

00:22:26.780 with twins at the time,

00:22:27.920 Allie,

00:22:28.520 deprived of food

00:22:29.380 and water.

00:22:31.240 Over 100 times,

00:22:32.680 she denied

00:22:33.400 having anything to do

00:22:34.280 with her daughter's death.

00:22:35.020 Over 100 times

00:22:35.940 in five hours,

00:22:37.520 they continued on.

00:22:39.160 They coerced her.

00:22:40.240 They said,

00:22:40.640 come on,

00:22:41.040 you know,

00:22:41.320 it's the most shocking

00:22:42.320 interrogation video

00:22:43.120 I've ever seen.

00:22:43.960 And when she said,

00:22:44.800 fine,

00:22:45.020 what do you want me to say?

00:22:45.680 I did it.

00:22:47.120 That's what they hung

00:22:47.920 the entire prosecution on.

00:22:49.280 So all of the evidence

00:22:50.240 that you just talked about,

00:22:51.260 all of the medical exams,

00:22:52.740 the pathology reports,

00:22:54.260 the Dr. Farley,

00:22:55.280 who works for the prosecutor's office

00:22:56.940 in Cameron County,

00:22:58.920 all of that was hinged on

00:23:00.700 their initial indictment

00:23:03.360 of Miss Lucio,

00:23:05.240 Melissa Lucio being

00:23:06.560 the only suspect.

00:23:07.780 It was all hinged

00:23:08.940 on that one statement

00:23:09.720 she made.

00:23:10.080 What do you want me to say?

00:23:10.720 I did it.

00:23:11.520 After a five-hour interrogation.

00:23:13.440 All of that

00:23:14.280 has been refuted

00:23:15.360 by the defense's medical

00:23:16.880 and its own pathology reports,

00:23:19.400 its own testimony.

00:23:20.100 We have multiple affidavits

00:23:22.120 from family members

00:23:23.340 and from other folks

00:23:24.180 who said that,

00:23:24.920 yeah, she wasn't a perfect mother,

00:23:26.860 but she wasn't violent

00:23:27.740 towards Mariah.

00:23:29.000 None of her kids

00:23:29.560 had ever seen her.

00:23:30.080 Why would her defense attorney,

00:23:31.600 a defense attorney?

00:23:32.540 She had a terrible defense attorney.

00:23:33.660 I mean, he.

00:23:34.300 Yeah, Alice,

00:23:34.540 she had a terrible defense attorney.

00:23:35.660 What do you want me to say?

00:23:36.200 He's terrible.

00:23:36.860 In my opinion,

00:23:37.360 he should be disbarred.

00:23:38.700 He absolutely should be disbarred.

00:23:39.880 I've read all the transcripts.

00:23:40.980 He's awful.

00:23:41.560 She was deprived.

00:23:42.760 It happens a lot

00:23:43.560 in death penalty cases

00:23:44.560 where folks who cannot afford counsel

00:23:46.860 or appointed counsel,

00:23:48.080 within days of her conviction

00:23:49.560 and her sentence

00:23:50.240 to death penalty,

00:23:50.940 her defense attorney

00:23:51.560 went to work

00:23:52.180 for the Cameron County prosecutor

00:23:53.660 who prosecuted the case

00:23:55.140 and who's now serving

00:23:56.020 13 years in federal prison

00:23:57.340 for corruption and bribery.

00:23:59.920 And so,

00:24:00.720 but all of the evidence,

00:24:02.340 a lot of the evidence

00:24:03.260 was just left out of the trial.

00:24:05.680 It was just left out.

00:24:06.760 The jury never heard it.

00:24:08.100 Like what evidence?

00:24:09.200 Contradictory medical evidence.

00:24:10.480 Like what?

00:24:10.720 Pathology reports

00:24:11.620 that say,

00:24:12.160 like for instance,

00:24:12.740 the bite marks

00:24:13.280 were completely refuted.

00:24:14.260 There were no bite marks.

00:24:15.280 None.

00:24:15.980 No bite marks.

00:24:16.920 No bite marks.

00:24:17.600 None.

00:24:17.780 So we think that the paramedics

00:24:20.740 and the person

00:24:22.420 who conducted the autopsy

00:24:23.840 and the emergency room physician

00:24:25.540 that they were all lying?

00:24:27.000 I think that they,

00:24:28.740 I don't want to say

00:24:30.280 that they were lying.

00:24:31.060 I think that they misled the jury.

00:24:32.840 It happens a lot

00:24:33.540 where they're going to

00:24:34.720 offer their opinions,

00:24:35.720 but defense is entitled to

00:24:37.080 in a fair trial

00:24:37.820 offer their contradictory opinions

00:24:40.160 as well.

00:24:40.480 So the bite marks were a lie.

00:24:41.100 The fact that her kidneys

00:24:42.320 were bruised

00:24:43.500 was a lie.

00:24:44.220 Her kidneys were not bruised.

00:24:45.700 She had a severe blood disorder.

00:24:48.840 She had a,

00:24:51.280 again,

00:24:52.080 when evidence is presented

00:24:53.100 in a jury

00:24:53.980 in a criminal case like this,

00:24:56.160 you present your evidence

00:24:57.160 and there's an ability

00:24:57.940 for cross-examination.

00:24:59.140 So the other side

00:24:59.700 gets to poke holes

00:25:00.560 in your testimony.

00:25:01.840 Then I get to present

00:25:02.540 my testimony,

00:25:03.440 my evidence,

00:25:04.120 and the prosecution

00:25:04.860 gets to poke holes in that.

00:25:06.420 And then the jury

00:25:07.040 takes all of that information

00:25:08.200 and makes an informed decision

00:25:09.320 as to what they think

00:25:10.100 actually happened.

00:25:11.480 And that did not happen

00:25:12.560 in this case.

00:25:14.060 And that fact alone

00:25:15.680 I believe

00:25:16.320 is evidence

00:25:17.320 and would support

00:25:18.400 our push for a new trial

00:25:19.420 for Melissa.

00:25:20.440 The five jurors

00:25:21.480 have said that.

00:25:22.100 They've reviewed

00:25:22.500 all of the evidence now

00:25:23.600 and they've said,

00:25:24.500 well,

00:25:24.560 we didn't hear any of this.

00:25:26.100 We weren't afforded

00:25:26.720 the opportunity

00:25:27.180 to hear any of this.

00:25:29.020 And so even the new DA,

00:25:31.620 Ali,

00:25:31.940 in Cameron County,

00:25:32.900 we had a hearing

00:25:33.500 the other day.

00:25:34.000 He appeared in front

00:25:34.580 of our committee.

00:25:35.060 Even the new DA

00:25:35.920 has said that,

00:25:36.940 you know what?

00:25:37.680 You're right.

00:25:38.500 You're right.

00:25:38.940 And if the Court

00:25:39.360 of Criminal Appeals

00:25:40.200 or the Governor

00:25:41.240 and the Board of Pardons

00:25:41.860 and Perils

00:25:42.180 don't step in

00:25:42.780 to stay this execution,

00:25:43.720 then the new Cameron County

00:25:44.920 District Attorney

00:25:45.500 Louise Sines

00:25:46.080 has said that

00:25:46.900 he will step in.

00:25:48.060 So the appellate court,

00:25:49.400 I know that you said

00:25:50.120 it was dismissed

00:25:50.940 on procedural grounds,

00:25:52.320 but they really go

00:25:53.420 through all of the arguments

00:25:54.840 and all of the evidence.

00:25:56.360 They don't say,

00:25:56.860 okay,

00:25:57.020 well,

00:25:57.240 on this technicality,

00:25:58.200 we're just going

00:25:58.720 to reject it.

00:25:59.780 I mean,

00:25:59.960 they really believe

00:26:01.200 that she is guilty

00:26:02.820 and that the trial

00:26:04.880 was conducted

00:26:05.680 in a way

00:26:06.280 that is legitimate.

00:26:07.600 So what you're saying,

00:26:08.800 again,

00:26:08.980 that it's not just

00:26:09.680 the trial court

00:26:10.420 that got it wrong.

00:26:11.120 It's not just

00:26:12.240 those witnesses

00:26:12.880 that were misleading

00:26:13.800 the jury,

00:26:14.440 but also that

00:26:15.640 the appellate courts

00:26:16.320 got it wrong as well.

00:26:17.520 Well,

00:26:17.620 remember,

00:26:18.120 there was a panel

00:26:18.620 on the Fifth Circuit

00:26:19.400 appellate court

00:26:20.220 that actually agreed

00:26:20.880 with Melissa's attorneys.

00:26:22.240 And then it was overturned

00:26:23.580 by the full Fifth Circuit

00:26:24.780 on procedural grounds.

00:26:26.380 And they,

00:26:26.700 well,

00:26:26.860 they explain why

00:26:28.180 they got that,

00:26:28.940 why they believe

00:26:29.740 that the partial panel

00:26:31.800 decided in error.

00:26:34.220 But they did not,

00:26:35.280 appellate courts

00:26:35.720 do not review evidence

00:26:36.760 like a jury does.

00:26:38.040 They don't review evidence

00:26:38.860 like a trial court does.

00:26:39.780 They have completely

00:26:40.460 different standards.

00:26:41.700 There's different burdens

00:26:42.400 that they,

00:26:42.860 that have to be met.

00:26:43.880 And,

00:26:44.380 and they were unable to

00:26:45.980 on procedural grounds

00:26:47.920 grant the appeal.

00:26:49.760 But what they were

00:26:50.340 trying to decide

00:26:51.280 was were the witnesses

00:26:53.060 because there were

00:26:53.820 two witnesses

00:26:54.420 that the defense says,

00:26:56.020 okay,

00:26:56.380 we weren't allowed

00:26:57.100 to bring these witnesses

00:26:57.920 forward.

00:26:58.360 And that's part

00:26:59.000 of the evidence,

00:26:59.920 the evidence that

00:27:00.760 they would say

00:27:01.360 would have helped

00:27:03.120 our case.

00:27:03.960 And so the appellate

00:27:05.180 court is deciding,

00:27:06.100 okay,

00:27:06.940 is that legit or not?

00:27:07.980 Is that a good contention?

00:27:08.960 The appellate court

00:27:09.520 decided,

00:27:10.340 no,

00:27:10.580 it's not.

00:27:11.100 And they give their

00:27:11.760 reasons why those

00:27:12.680 two witnesses

00:27:13.340 should have been

00:27:14.980 and were legitimately

00:27:16.100 excluded and that

00:27:17.160 that's not actually

00:27:18.160 grounds for an appeal.

00:27:19.980 And so,

00:27:20.580 yes,

00:27:20.800 they don't look

00:27:21.920 at the evidence

00:27:22.520 directly,

00:27:23.020 but they look at

00:27:24.060 whether or not

00:27:25.120 the trial was conducted

00:27:26.340 well or,

00:27:27.640 you know,

00:27:28.460 in a way that is

00:27:29.900 right,

00:27:30.520 legitimate,

00:27:30.960 valid.

00:27:31.800 And so,

00:27:32.840 obviously,

00:27:33.760 I guess you disagree

00:27:34.640 with that decision.

00:27:35.600 It's not about

00:27:36.300 whether or not

00:27:37.280 they were able

00:27:37.880 to review evidence,

00:27:38.960 but they think

00:27:39.580 that the evidence

00:27:40.160 that was included,

00:27:41.680 I guess,

00:27:41.960 was sufficient

00:27:42.500 and that it was.

00:27:44.000 She was afforded

00:27:44.680 due process.

00:27:45.780 Yeah.

00:27:46.100 So,

00:27:46.380 so on the habeas

00:27:47.680 corpus petition,

00:27:48.380 I mean,

00:27:48.560 we could get into

00:27:49.360 the details

00:27:49.780 and I'm happy

00:27:50.220 to do so,

00:27:50.900 but there are

00:27:51.540 a number of

00:27:51.940 justices on

00:27:52.420 the Fifth Circuit

00:27:52.920 who just strongly

00:27:53.600 disagreed with

00:27:54.180 the entire panel.

00:27:55.000 It was not

00:27:55.480 a resoundingly

00:27:56.820 unanimous decision

00:27:57.740 of the Fifth Circuit.

00:27:58.480 I believe

00:27:59.720 that federal law

00:28:00.260 needs to be changed

00:28:01.160 to allow

00:28:02.460 more of these,

00:28:04.420 more review

00:28:05.600 of cases

00:28:06.800 just like this

00:28:07.480 all across the country.

00:28:08.700 Absolutely,

00:28:09.260 I do.

00:28:09.580 I think they got it wrong.

00:28:11.000 And the good news

00:28:12.020 is that we have

00:28:12.700 the Board of Pardons

00:28:13.260 and Paroles.

00:28:13.940 We have the Court

00:28:14.420 of Criminal Appeals

00:28:15.080 and we've got

00:28:15.500 now the local DA

00:28:16.420 in Cameron County

00:28:17.120 who all disagree

00:28:18.160 with the Fifth Circuit's

00:28:19.020 decision.

00:28:20.120 The Board of Pardons

00:28:20.860 and Paroles

00:28:21.080 hasn't ruled yet

00:28:21.680 nor has the Court

00:28:22.200 of Criminal Appeals

00:28:22.800 but the DA has.

00:28:24.700 And so,

00:28:25.480 all we're asking for here

00:28:26.580 is to push

00:28:26.960 the pause button.

00:28:27.580 And I've watched

00:28:28.800 you enough

00:28:29.320 and I know

00:28:29.720 you enough

00:28:30.520 and your viewers

00:28:32.080 enough to know

00:28:32.820 your audience

00:28:33.460 that we conservatives

00:28:35.580 are naturally

00:28:36.180 distrustful of government.

00:28:38.160 We should be.

00:28:39.060 I mean,

00:28:39.200 right now

00:28:39.700 with what's happening

00:28:40.480 in Washington

00:28:41.600 with the White House,

00:28:42.500 the executive branch,

00:28:43.300 the legislative branch,

00:28:44.000 I don't trust

00:28:44.480 the Biden White House.

00:28:45.620 I don't trust Fauci.

00:28:46.940 I don't trust Nancy Pelosi.

00:28:48.340 And I don't trust

00:28:49.260 the progressive

00:28:49.900 radical prosecutor

00:28:51.300 in Cameron County

00:28:52.880 who's now behind bars.

00:28:54.660 I don't trust them.

00:28:56.120 And I think

00:28:56.480 they got it wrong.

00:28:57.520 And I think

00:28:57.780 Melissa is the victim

00:28:58.920 and ultimately

00:28:59.560 justice is prevented

00:29:00.540 from Mariah.

00:29:02.180 And all I'm asking for

00:29:03.620 is the pause button

00:29:04.380 to allow a new trial.

00:29:06.140 And I don't understand

00:29:07.900 when I hear folks

00:29:10.440 like who support

00:29:11.060 the death penalty

00:29:11.660 at all costs

00:29:12.300 and say that,

00:29:13.020 yeah,

00:29:13.660 this is a God-ordained

00:29:14.480 institution

00:29:15.060 and this is something

00:29:16.140 conservatives have

00:29:16.840 always supported

00:29:17.400 and I hear all the arguments

00:29:18.760 for the death penalty

00:29:19.660 and I'm a supporter

00:29:21.060 of the death penalty

00:29:21.800 in the most heinous cases.

00:29:23.920 But at the end of the day,

00:29:25.720 a God-ordained institution

00:29:26.800 can be messed up

00:29:28.020 by sinful man.

00:29:30.300 And we have an obligation,

00:29:32.260 I would say,

00:29:32.820 a strong obligation

00:29:33.680 and a duty

00:29:34.320 to do everything we can

00:29:36.540 to correct that

00:29:37.400 and to correct those injustices

00:29:38.920 and to speak up

00:29:39.700 for people who can't

00:29:40.440 speak for themselves

00:29:41.160 and to make sure

00:29:42.400 that a potentially

00:29:43.040 innocent Texan

00:29:43.720 isn't put to death

00:29:44.520 by the state

00:29:45.180 with your tax dollars

00:29:46.300 and my tax dollars

00:29:47.780 on our watch.

00:29:48.900 I definitely agree

00:29:50.400 with you

00:29:50.840 that I don't want

00:29:51.520 a potentially innocent person

00:29:53.120 to die

00:29:53.840 and I am pro-death penalty

00:29:55.340 in cases of capital murder

00:29:57.880 because I do think that,

00:29:59.140 I mean,

00:29:59.420 Genesis 9-6

00:30:00.280 explains exactly why

00:30:01.700 God demands

00:30:03.200 the death penalty

00:30:03.880 for those cases

00:30:04.580 because we are made

00:30:05.360 in the image of God.

00:30:05.780 Usually based on,

00:30:06.720 but there's other scripture

00:30:07.300 that says it has to be based

00:30:08.220 on two or three eyewitnesses.

00:30:09.440 Yes.

00:30:09.540 But we can have that conversation

00:30:10.400 another time.

00:30:11.140 Yes.

00:30:11.620 There were no eyewitnesses

00:30:12.700 of this crime.

00:30:13.920 I agree.

00:30:14.780 I agree with you.

00:30:16.100 I agree with you

00:30:18.660 that the death penalty

00:30:21.120 is legitimate in some cases

00:30:22.380 and not necessarily all cases

00:30:23.980 and of course we believe

00:30:25.120 in due process

00:30:25.840 and we absolutely should.

00:30:28.020 One of my issues

00:30:29.480 with all of this

00:30:30.220 is that those

00:30:31.520 who are making a defense

00:30:33.620 of her

00:30:34.200 seem to be

00:30:36.080 leaving out

00:30:37.500 really important

00:30:38.700 evidence

00:30:39.600 like the Innocence Project

00:30:41.000 who is saying

00:30:41.900 that she was just

00:30:42.940 a wonderful mother,

00:30:43.960 that there were no signs

00:30:45.120 of abuse,

00:30:45.560 there were no signs

00:30:46.560 of physical abuse

00:30:47.400 of Mariah.

00:30:47.940 Even if you think,

00:30:49.780 even if you think

00:30:50.760 that the emergency room physician

00:30:52.360 and the paramedic

00:30:53.440 that they were all

00:30:54.240 misleading the jury,

00:30:55.480 I mean,

00:30:55.700 you would have,

00:30:56.460 it would almost be

00:30:57.260 like a conspiracy theory

00:30:58.580 to believe that all

00:30:59.740 of those people

00:31:00.340 were lying

00:31:00.820 and not only that,

00:31:01.800 you would have to believe,

00:31:02.580 which, you know,

00:31:03.180 I don't trust CPS

00:31:04.340 all that much,

00:31:06.160 but I think that we should

00:31:07.340 take this into consideration.

00:31:08.660 There was an affidavit

00:31:09.540 in 2004.

00:31:11.340 This is by CPS caseworker

00:31:13.120 De La Garza.

00:31:13.920 She said that she made

00:31:15.900 several trips

00:31:16.900 to Lucio's home

00:31:18.680 throughout the 90s.

00:31:19.980 In the early 2000s,

00:31:21.560 she was typically found

00:31:22.720 guilty of neglect

00:31:24.880 of her children.

00:31:26.340 And then this particular case,

00:31:28.380 which was one of many cases

00:31:29.620 in which CPS

00:31:30.360 had to take her children

00:31:31.780 and make sure

00:31:32.940 that her children

00:31:33.580 were physically okay,

00:31:36.540 she wrote this,

00:31:37.560 that Robert,

00:31:38.200 four years old,

00:31:39.020 when she visited Lucio

00:31:40.160 in her home,

00:31:40.720 was observed

00:31:41.120 with a dime-sized bruise

00:31:42.140 on his stomach,

00:31:42.700 an old scratch

00:31:43.180 on his stomach,

00:31:44.200 insect bites

00:31:44.840 on his arms and legs.

00:31:45.940 She said that the entire home

00:31:47.360 was infested with ants,

00:31:48.520 including where the baby Mariah

00:31:50.940 was sleeping.

00:31:51.640 But we don't put people

00:31:52.320 to death for these things.

00:31:53.160 We don't put bad mothers

00:31:54.420 to death.

00:31:55.000 No, but this is relevant

00:31:58.960 because when you hear

00:31:59.900 the Innocence Project

00:32:00.720 and when you hear other people,

00:32:01.820 wow, there's no,

00:32:02.460 she's just this innocent woman.

00:32:04.280 I'm not saying that.

00:32:05.520 Well, you have said that,

00:32:06.940 but she's just this innocent woman

00:32:09.040 in the Innocence Project

00:32:09.960 saying that there was

00:32:11.160 no sign of abuse.

00:32:12.940 You read this affidavit

00:32:14.700 by the CPS.

00:32:16.300 Look, I mean,

00:32:16.920 not only was she

00:32:18.600 at least neglecting her children,

00:32:20.220 if not outright

00:32:20.980 abusing her children,

00:32:22.720 she and her children

00:32:23.680 also tested positive

00:32:25.940 for cocaine.

00:32:26.920 I mean, this was a problem

00:32:27.800 throughout her life.

00:32:28.640 We don't put people

00:32:29.960 to death for drug use.

00:32:30.960 I'm not saying that

00:32:31.120 this is what justifies

00:32:33.260 her execution.

00:32:34.540 I am saying

00:32:35.180 there's plenty of context

00:32:36.440 and plenty of history,

00:32:38.120 plenty of criminal history

00:32:39.260 with her to tell us

00:32:40.340 that it's probably

00:32:41.400 pretty likely

00:32:42.320 that she was abusing Mariah.

00:32:44.720 She admitted to abusing Mariah

00:32:46.200 in a variety of ways

00:32:47.600 on record

00:32:49.320 and that I don't think

00:32:52.180 that it's fair

00:32:52.820 or right to say

00:32:54.100 that she is probably innocent.

00:32:56.280 I think that we could say,

00:32:57.240 okay, you could say,

00:32:58.100 you know what?

00:32:58.440 She was abusing her.

00:32:59.400 She admitted to that.

00:33:00.180 She wasn't a good mother.

00:33:01.340 That's fine.

00:33:02.060 But look,

00:33:02.740 it's probably just manslaughter

00:33:04.180 or it just doesn't look like

00:33:05.840 she actually

00:33:06.800 gave the final blow

00:33:09.660 that killed Mariah.

00:33:10.540 That's one thing.

00:33:11.880 What I hate

00:33:12.660 is the propaganda

00:33:13.820 not from you

00:33:14.800 but that comes from

00:33:15.860 criminal justice reform advocates

00:33:17.600 like the Innocence Project

00:33:18.940 that I see

00:33:19.500 in this clemency petition

00:33:20.460 and I see somewhat

00:33:21.440 in the letter

00:33:22.280 that you signed

00:33:23.140 that paints her

00:33:23.940 in a picture

00:33:24.340 that is just not accurate

00:33:25.380 to me

00:33:25.840 that actually hurts your case.

00:33:27.840 I mean,

00:33:28.080 it hurts your side

00:33:29.020 because I'm looking

00:33:29.840 at all of this evidence

00:33:30.880 and all of these records

00:33:31.860 far before she was convicted

00:33:33.740 of capital murder

00:33:34.620 and it looks like

00:33:35.760 she abused her children serially

00:33:37.660 and yeah,

00:33:38.840 I think that context

00:33:39.720 is relevant

00:33:40.260 if we're looking

00:33:40.940 at whether or not

00:33:41.740 she is innocent.

00:33:42.780 We're talking about

00:33:43.880 a woman who's 13 days away

00:33:45.520 from being executed

00:33:46.360 by the state

00:33:47.100 for a crime

00:33:48.520 that I don't believe occurred

00:33:49.600 based on what I know right now

00:33:51.240 and for a crime

00:33:51.800 I don't believe she committed.

00:33:52.900 I'm not the judge

00:33:53.500 of the jury

00:33:53.940 and all of the things

00:33:56.460 that you just mentioned,

00:33:57.440 there's a number

00:33:58.200 of pieces of evidence

00:33:59.740 out there

00:34:00.040 that contradict

00:34:00.560 all of that as well

00:34:01.580 that the jury never heard

00:34:02.920 but let's keep this

00:34:03.760 about what the issue

00:34:04.780 is right now

00:34:05.360 and that's a woman

00:34:05.940 who's about to be murdered

00:34:06.900 by the state

00:34:07.640 and whether she should be.

00:34:09.520 Whether the system

00:34:10.620 succeeded

00:34:11.480 and is beyond reproach,

00:34:13.500 whether the system

00:34:14.100 can be trusted,

00:34:14.940 whether it was fair,

00:34:15.780 whether she was granted

00:34:16.560 her constitutional rights

00:34:17.840 or not

00:34:20.120 and I believe

00:34:21.220 the question,

00:34:22.020 the answer to all of those

00:34:22.920 is no,

00:34:23.580 she was not

00:34:24.120 and so all I'm asking for,

00:34:26.020 all we're pushing for

00:34:26.920 is the pause button here

00:34:28.240 so that we can get her

00:34:29.740 a new trial

00:34:30.220 so that a jury

00:34:31.560 can be reconvened,

00:34:33.700 she can be re-prosecuted

00:34:34.820 and so that all

00:34:35.840 of these facts,

00:34:36.780 the things you're talking about

00:34:37.800 and her defense

00:34:38.480 to all of those things

00:34:39.200 can be brought out

00:34:40.000 in a fair trial.

00:34:41.380 That's all I'm asking for

00:34:42.600 and until that's granted,

00:34:44.620 I believe it would be

00:34:45.440 an irreparable

00:34:46.160 and irreversible stain

00:34:47.300 on the state of Texas

00:34:48.180 for us to go forward

00:34:49.660 with her execution

00:34:50.400 and I don't agree

00:34:51.500 with the Innocence Project

00:34:52.380 on everything.

00:34:53.180 I don't.

00:34:53.700 They know that.

00:34:54.340 I know that.

00:34:54.880 I've said that publicly

00:34:55.680 but when you've got

00:34:57.280 in this country,

00:34:57.920 I don't know the exact stats

00:34:59.020 so don't hold me to this

00:34:59.920 but when you've got

00:35:00.560 I think for every

00:35:01.240 eight executions

00:35:02.140 you've got one exoneration

00:35:03.940 of a death row inmate.

00:35:05.680 For every eight executions

00:35:07.000 that take place

00:35:07.600 in this country,

00:35:08.140 Ali,

00:35:08.400 one is exonerated

00:35:09.380 in many cases

00:35:10.360 after having spent decades

00:35:11.520 on death row

00:35:12.200 and to me,

00:35:14.140 if I'm going to fly

00:35:15.100 on an airplane

00:35:15.720 and the airline company

00:35:18.000 is going to say,

00:35:18.480 look,

00:35:19.200 we land eight planes safely

00:35:20.640 but for every eight planes

00:35:21.740 we land safely,

00:35:22.640 there's one that doesn't,

00:35:23.840 you know,

00:35:24.160 that goes down.

00:35:25.200 Well,

00:35:25.340 I'm not getting on that airplane

00:35:26.340 and so the questions

00:35:29.260 that they're asking,

00:35:30.560 the tough questions

00:35:31.600 that we're all asking

00:35:32.380 about this case

00:35:33.100 and others,

00:35:33.600 I think are questions

00:35:34.260 that we shouldn't be afraid of

00:35:35.460 because it's going to,

00:35:36.920 what we're doing, Ali,

00:35:37.580 is not weakening the system,

00:35:38.700 it's strengthening the system

00:35:39.600 and I believe that

00:35:40.200 with all my heart.

00:35:45.600 I can't get on board

00:35:47.080 with the Innocence Project

00:35:48.040 especially considering

00:35:49.200 that almost every case

00:35:50.240 that they put forward

00:35:50.900 like the Julius Jones case,

00:35:52.220 they just purposely

00:35:53.300 leave out facts,

00:35:54.460 they leave out testimony,

00:35:55.860 they like to talk about,

00:35:57.000 oh,

00:35:57.120 it's just so one-sided.

00:35:58.680 Really,

00:35:59.240 they're an anti-death

00:36:00.340 penalty organization

00:36:01.460 that believes

00:36:02.140 that our criminal justice system

00:36:04.320 is racist

00:36:05.220 and so that's going to color

00:36:06.300 everything they do,

00:36:07.160 they're going to fund

00:36:07.760 the documentaries that they see,

00:36:09.020 they're going to have

00:36:09.540 Kim Kardashian come out

00:36:11.160 and they're going to have

00:36:12.260 all of these talking points

00:36:13.560 but what they're saying

00:36:14.860 simply isn't true

00:36:16.660 most of the time.

00:36:17.480 Now,

00:36:17.820 we can be on board

00:36:18.760 if you believe

00:36:19.400 that someone is innocent

00:36:20.240 or you believe

00:36:20.920 that a case wasn't fair

00:36:21.920 and say that they shouldn't

00:36:22.840 get the death penalty

00:36:23.760 but I don't think

00:36:25.180 it looks good

00:36:25.700 to link arms

00:36:26.360 with an organization

00:36:27.020 that is so extremely dishonest

00:36:29.160 and I think in a lot of ways

00:36:30.200 it's actually anti-justice

00:36:31.760 because they purposely

00:36:33.540 leave out the truth

00:36:34.460 to try to push propaganda

00:36:35.720 about this kind of thing.

00:36:37.040 Well,

00:36:37.180 then you can have

00:36:37.820 the Innocence Project

00:36:38.540 in here and talk to them

00:36:39.500 about that.

00:36:39.960 I'm not here to defend

00:36:40.600 the Innocence Project.

00:36:41.540 I'm here to ensure

00:36:43.500 that a potentially innocent

00:36:45.060 Texas woman

00:36:45.800 is not executed

00:36:46.560 by the state.

00:36:47.120 I wasn't really asking

00:36:47.140 your response on that.

00:36:48.160 I was just kind of

00:36:48.820 giving my thoughts

00:36:50.780 about the Innocence Project

00:36:51.680 and I've talked about it before.

00:36:53.020 There are conservative organizations.

00:36:54.180 There's plenty of,

00:36:55.000 you know,

00:36:55.320 hundreds of faith leaders

00:36:56.280 across the state of Texas

00:36:57.280 who've spoken up on this.

00:36:58.560 There's conservative legislators.

00:37:00.800 There's a number of groups

00:37:02.720 that are not

00:37:03.200 the Innocence Project.

00:37:05.500 Yes,

00:37:05.760 there are conservatives

00:37:06.340 against the death penalty.

00:37:07.880 No, no, no, no.

00:37:08.380 I'm saying conservatives

00:37:09.340 who are for the death penalty.

00:37:10.540 Who are against this particular, yes.

00:37:12.360 Who have said,

00:37:12.720 on this case,

00:37:13.420 we cannot go forward with this.

00:37:14.760 Yes,

00:37:14.980 I'm just saying

00:37:15.660 that the Innocence,

00:37:16.920 it's not just a left-wing position

00:37:18.300 actually just to be

00:37:19.320 against the death penalty.

00:37:20.200 But as you stated,

00:37:21.520 there are also

00:37:22.460 conservative politicians,

00:37:23.860 conservative people

00:37:24.580 who are for the death penalty

00:37:26.000 who have their problems

00:37:26.880 with this case.

00:37:27.420 So give us,

00:37:28.500 again,

00:37:29.060 just your final argument

00:37:31.540 for why you believe

00:37:32.860 she is innocent,

00:37:34.320 why you don't believe

00:37:35.720 that she really got

00:37:36.700 the fair trial.

00:37:37.880 Tell us a little bit

00:37:38.860 about the evidence

00:37:40.260 that you have referenced

00:37:41.300 multiple times

00:37:42.060 that you think contradicts

00:37:43.540 all of the testimony

00:37:44.980 that we heard

00:37:45.700 that really doesn't work

00:37:46.660 in her favor.

00:37:47.260 Well,

00:37:47.700 I've talked about

00:37:48.100 the interrogation

00:37:48.920 and those tactics

00:37:49.840 are now banned

00:37:50.460 in the vast majority

00:37:51.120 of states,

00:37:51.600 including Texas.

00:37:52.680 But do you think,

00:37:53.400 I just want to pause there

00:37:54.660 because I actually agree.

00:37:55.880 I saw some of the things,

00:37:56.960 I mean,

00:37:57.760 it just shouldn't be fair

00:37:58.680 that she is,

00:37:59.580 she was talking

00:38:00.900 without a lawyer.

00:38:01.880 It was late at night.

00:38:02.780 She didn't get food or water.

00:38:03.940 I agree with that.

00:38:05.000 And then they're saying things like,

00:38:06.400 how are you going to prove to us

00:38:07.480 that you're not

00:38:07.900 a cold-blooded killer?

00:38:09.120 Yeah,

00:38:09.520 I agree with that.

00:38:10.560 I think we can agree there.

00:38:11.720 Some of the things

00:38:12.440 that she admitted to,

00:38:13.500 though,

00:38:14.000 without any coercion,

00:38:15.820 without them pushing her

00:38:16.820 to admit,

00:38:17.380 like,

00:38:17.540 why would she make up

00:38:18.840 the fact that she

00:38:19.580 bit her daughter's back

00:38:20.460 or that she pinched

00:38:21.160 her daughter's vagina

00:38:21.980 or that she would

00:38:22.900 hurt her daughter

00:38:25.040 the way that she did,

00:38:25.860 that she would

00:38:26.260 repeatedly spank her daughter.

00:38:27.640 I mean,

00:38:27.820 her daughter had already

00:38:28.880 been taken away

00:38:29.620 from her by CPS

00:38:30.720 for a couple of years

00:38:31.720 because she tested

00:38:32.360 positive for cocaine.

00:38:33.420 So there's a whole thing there.

00:38:34.920 So I can agree with you

00:38:36.160 that maybe the interrogation

00:38:37.500 wasn't that great

00:38:38.240 and I think that it's good

00:38:39.240 that those strategies

00:38:39.980 are,

00:38:40.600 those methods

00:38:41.100 can be outlawed now,

00:38:42.080 but I don't think

00:38:42.820 that negates

00:38:43.440 her entire recorded

00:38:44.720 testimony there.

00:38:45.800 Well,

00:38:46.420 to my knowledge,

00:38:47.960 you know,

00:38:48.840 the bite mark testimonies

00:38:49.820 can have been

00:38:50.180 completely contradicted.

00:38:53.320 Bite mark,

00:38:54.520 bite mark data

00:38:56.020 in all states

00:38:57.220 has been,

00:38:57.880 we don't use that data

00:38:58.720 anymore.

00:38:59.320 And I think even

00:38:59.920 the prosecution

00:39:00.500 now would agree,

00:39:01.220 yeah,

00:39:01.480 that was kind of faulty.

00:39:02.800 In fact,

00:39:03.400 some of the prosecution

00:39:04.280 has said that

00:39:04.940 some of the medical

00:39:05.440 evidence they used,

00:39:07.120 Dr. Farley's initial report

00:39:08.380 was just completely

00:39:09.520 uninformed,

00:39:10.620 misinformed.

00:39:11.200 It all hinged on the fact

00:39:12.240 that they believe

00:39:12.860 Melissa committed this crime

00:39:14.420 and they were going

00:39:15.180 to prove it.

00:39:15.840 They were more interested

00:39:16.760 in Allie,

00:39:17.440 Allie in winning this case

00:39:19.040 than they were justice

00:39:19.900 for Mariah.

00:39:20.800 I believe that with all my heart.

00:39:21.800 I've said that publicly

00:39:22.560 and I'll say it here.

00:39:23.640 I mean,

00:39:23.800 the jury saw the photographs

00:39:25.140 of her.

00:39:25.820 And half of the jury

00:39:26.540 now regrets it.

00:39:27.820 But they saw the photographs

00:39:29.320 of her.

00:39:30.020 They saw,

00:39:30.520 but I'm saying,

00:39:31.640 her bruised body.

00:39:32.720 Yeah,

00:39:32.960 her bruised body.

00:39:34.040 Yeah,

00:39:34.060 but they weren't informed

00:39:36.220 of the fact that she had

00:39:37.020 a very rare blood disorder

00:39:38.480 that created

00:39:39.800 very extensive

00:39:42.620 bruising and bleeding.

00:39:43.620 She had bruising

00:39:44.360 and bleeding her whole life.

00:39:45.960 But it wasn't a result

00:39:46.700 of trauma.

00:39:47.240 It was a result

00:39:47.720 of her blood disorder.

00:39:48.560 So they could see the photos.

00:39:50.040 But when you leave out

00:39:50.760 the part that she has

00:39:51.820 a rare genetic blood disorder,

00:39:53.320 well,

00:39:53.520 that's a pretty important part.

00:39:54.620 Is that true?

00:39:55.160 Is that proven

00:39:56.040 that she had that very rare

00:39:57.240 blood disorder?

00:39:57.340 It absolutely is.

00:39:57.620 It absolutely is.

00:39:58.260 There is evidence

00:39:58.840 that absolutely there is.

00:40:00.440 And that's one

00:40:02.220 of the pieces of evidence

00:40:02.960 that was kept out

00:40:03.720 at the trial level.

00:40:04.520 And the defense attorney

00:40:07.220 would leave that out

00:40:07.840 just because he's bad

00:40:08.700 at his job?

00:40:09.240 He's terrible at his job.

00:40:10.660 He's,

00:40:11.120 yeah,

00:40:12.040 like I said,

00:40:12.740 he should be disbarred.

00:40:13.500 He was terrible.

00:40:14.240 I mean,

00:40:14.500 there's evidence

00:40:15.200 offered by siblings

00:40:17.580 of Mariah's

00:40:18.220 that said,

00:40:18.640 I mean,

00:40:18.780 there's one piece

00:40:20.620 of evidence,

00:40:21.080 one affidavit.

00:40:22.840 One of her sisters

00:40:23.580 pushed her down the stairs.

00:40:25.800 And the defense attorney

00:40:27.240 did not allow that,

00:40:28.400 didn't even call

00:40:29.020 that witness

00:40:29.460 because he was scared

00:40:30.340 of the impact

00:40:31.740 that being called

00:40:32.260 as a witness

00:40:32.620 would have

00:40:33.080 on a young girl.

00:40:34.480 Well,

00:40:34.800 that to me

00:40:35.160 is a pretty important

00:40:35.900 piece of evidence

00:40:36.480 that the jury

00:40:37.120 in a capital murder trial

00:40:38.520 should know

00:40:39.080 eyewitness testimony

00:40:41.120 and someone actually

00:40:42.160 admitting to doing this.

00:40:44.460 Yeah,

00:40:44.900 the court of appeals

00:40:45.580 looked at that

00:40:46.340 and they also didn't think

00:40:47.380 that was legitimate

00:40:48.040 because it didn't sound

00:40:49.060 like that was the testimony

00:40:50.000 that she was actually

00:40:50.800 about to give.

00:40:51.400 There were a few things

00:40:52.160 like that.

00:40:52.840 When they tried

00:40:53.400 to appeal the case,

00:40:54.320 they said,

00:40:54.680 oh,

00:40:54.960 you know,

00:40:55.260 this witness was excluded.

00:40:56.260 This witness was excluded.

00:40:57.240 This piece of evidence

00:40:57.920 was excluded.

00:40:58.720 The court of appeals

00:40:59.420 looked at all of those things

00:41:00.840 and really said,

00:41:01.740 okay,

00:41:01.900 what you're saying

00:41:02.920 those witnesses

00:41:04.600 would have said

00:41:05.620 they wouldn't have actually

00:41:08.060 said that.

00:41:09.340 Like,

00:41:09.480 they were trying

00:41:10.080 to call the defense,

00:41:11.120 thought about calling

00:41:11.760 this one psychologist

00:41:12.760 who said,

00:41:13.240 oh,

00:41:13.380 she had battered woman syndrome.

00:41:15.400 She was just going

00:41:15.940 to blame herself

00:41:16.860 because of that.

00:41:18.080 So she wasn't really

00:41:19.120 telling the truth

00:41:19.800 when she was saying

00:41:20.920 that she was abusing Mariah.

00:41:23.240 But then,

00:41:24.040 when you actually

00:41:24.740 look at the statement

00:41:26.200 that that psychologist

00:41:26.980 made that he was going

00:41:28.220 to give,

00:41:28.700 that's not actually

00:41:29.700 what he was going

00:41:30.400 to say at all.

00:41:31.860 And so,

00:41:32.620 I don't know.

00:41:33.080 I just have a hard time.

00:41:34.020 None of the new evidence,

00:41:35.020 Ali,

00:41:35.180 even by the court

00:41:35.780 of criminal appeals

00:41:36.340 has been reviewed.

00:41:37.320 None of it.

00:41:38.700 None of it.

00:41:39.400 So I understand

00:41:40.280 what you're saying

00:41:40.800 that the court

00:41:41.140 of criminal appeals

00:41:41.720 may have heard

00:41:42.340 about this evidence,

00:41:43.200 heard it.

00:41:43.600 They may have even

00:41:44.320 reviewed on their own

00:41:45.320 a couple of the affidavits

00:41:46.400 and reviewed

00:41:47.120 some of the pleadings,

00:41:47.920 but none of this

00:41:48.500 has been tried

00:41:49.140 in a court of law.

00:41:49.760 None of it.

00:41:50.300 There's been no

00:41:50.840 cross-examination

00:41:51.640 of the prosecution's evidence.

00:41:52.920 There's been very little

00:41:53.660 cross-examination

00:41:54.420 of any new evidence

00:41:56.280 that the defense

00:41:57.540 has found since then.

00:41:59.000 And so,

00:42:00.520 when you put

00:42:00.880 all of this together,

00:42:01.760 all of the new evidence,

00:42:02.600 the statements

00:42:03.040 of the jurors,

00:42:03.920 the interrogation tactics

00:42:05.520 that are now banned,

00:42:06.820 you put the fact

00:42:07.800 that she had

00:42:08.600 severe,

00:42:09.580 severe childhood

00:42:11.180 and sexual abuse.

00:42:12.460 She was a victim

00:42:13.600 of domestic violence.

00:42:14.760 There was another

00:42:15.520 co-conspirator

00:42:16.480 that they convicted.

00:42:18.600 And that was her husband,

00:42:19.480 Alvarez,

00:42:19.840 at the time.

00:42:20.200 He got four years.

00:42:21.760 Yeah,

00:42:22.020 because at the time

00:42:23.200 that she died,

00:42:25.200 Lucio was the primary

00:42:26.400 caregiver,

00:42:27.520 not Alvarez.

00:42:28.520 And she actually said,

00:42:30.460 well,

00:42:30.680 a police officer

00:42:31.460 testified that she said,

00:42:33.500 not only in the

00:42:34.640 recorded statement,

00:42:35.460 but testified that she said

00:42:36.580 on the phone,

00:42:37.480 in the cop car,

00:42:38.740 don't blame Robert,

00:42:39.720 don't blame Robert,

00:42:40.660 it was me.

00:42:41.220 She was a victim

00:42:41.860 of domestic violence,

00:42:42.920 Allie.

00:42:43.360 You know very well

00:42:45.140 that someone being

00:42:46.560 a victim of domestic

00:42:47.940 violence does not mean,

00:42:49.680 one,

00:42:49.900 that they are going

00:42:50.420 to go on to abuse

00:42:51.440 or that they...

00:42:53.200 make up lies like this.

00:42:55.180 but don't you think

00:42:55.880 that the jury should hear

00:42:57.260 when you present evidence

00:42:58.680 of some things

00:42:59.200 that she admitted to,

00:43:00.120 whether it's the interrogation

00:43:01.440 or in her phone calls

00:43:02.480 with police or with friends,

00:43:04.120 don't you think

00:43:04.700 that the jury should hear

00:43:05.740 and understand

00:43:06.400 maybe the motivation

00:43:07.400 for a woman

00:43:08.160 for saying certain things

00:43:10.240 is that she's afraid

00:43:11.980 of the system,

00:43:13.180 she is afraid of men,

00:43:14.800 of law enforcement,

00:43:15.760 she has been abandoned,

00:43:16.860 she's been abused

00:43:17.320 all her life.

00:43:18.340 That is common

00:43:19.400 criminal law procedure

00:43:20.500 for those things

00:43:21.400 to make it

00:43:21.860 in front of a jury.

00:43:22.500 The jury had

00:43:23.600 no evidence whatsoever,

00:43:25.000 none,

00:43:25.540 of her childhood sexual abuse,

00:43:27.480 of her current sexual abuse,

00:43:29.080 of her victimhood

00:43:30.440 as a domestic violence victim.

00:43:32.140 The jury had no knowledge

00:43:33.320 of any of that.

00:43:34.740 And so in a new trial,

00:43:37.120 if Melissa is granted

00:43:38.120 a new trial

00:43:38.680 if we're able

00:43:39.020 to get her execution stayed

00:43:40.280 and get her a new day in court,

00:43:41.960 all of that can come out

00:43:43.040 and all of it should come out.

00:43:44.700 And if it does

00:43:45.540 and a new jury's convened

00:43:46.760 and decides that

00:43:47.560 they want to side

00:43:48.280 with the prosecution

00:43:49.060 and convict her again

00:43:49.960 of capital murder

00:43:50.660 and sentence her to death,

00:43:51.720 then the process

00:43:52.940 will have worked.

00:43:53.720 I just don't believe,

00:43:55.080 based on what I know

00:43:55.720 at this point, Allie,

00:43:56.480 that that would be

00:43:57.080 likely to happen.

00:43:58.100 Yeah.

00:43:58.480 And well,

00:43:59.240 one thing that the appellate

00:44:00.260 court said

00:44:00.780 when this was appealed

00:44:03.720 in 2011

00:44:04.380 is that there was

00:44:05.700 some conflict

00:44:06.220 because she did talk

00:44:07.340 to another psychologist

00:44:08.360 with the last name

00:44:09.420 of Juarez

00:44:09.940 and she told them

00:44:11.420 that she was not

00:44:12.320 sexually abused,

00:44:13.120 that she was never

00:44:13.620 sexually abused.

00:44:14.320 Then she told a psychologist

00:44:15.280 later on

00:44:15.920 that she was sexually abused.

00:44:17.320 They asked the psychologist,

00:44:18.200 is it possible,

00:44:19.260 which I don't know,

00:44:19.820 I'm not saying this is true,

00:44:20.760 is it possible

00:44:21.280 that she would change

00:44:21.960 her story

00:44:22.360 because she thought

00:44:23.120 that it would help her

00:44:23.880 later in trial

00:44:24.960 and that psychologist,

00:44:26.700 which was called

00:44:27.500 by the defense,

00:44:28.180 said yes.

00:44:28.760 So I spent time

00:44:29.440 with Melissa Lucio

00:44:30.100 just a few days ago

00:44:30.940 on death row,

00:44:31.960 okay?

00:44:32.440 I sat closer to her

00:44:33.640 than you and I

00:44:34.100 are sitting right now.

00:44:36.060 Melissa's been there

00:44:36.680 for 15 years

00:44:37.380 in solitary confinement

00:44:38.460 for 23 and a half hours a day.

00:44:40.460 She has had no physical contact

00:44:41.780 in 15 years.

00:44:42.800 Which I think is wrong

00:44:43.700 in general.

00:44:44.260 I think that's cruel

00:44:44.960 and unusual punishment

00:44:45.880 no matter what.

00:44:46.400 That's the way

00:44:47.180 we do things in Texas

00:44:48.160 and there's a reason

00:44:48.840 that death row

00:44:49.360 is not in the middle

00:44:49.940 of Dallas or Frisco

00:44:50.840 or Houston.

00:44:51.520 It's because if people

00:44:52.100 saw this

00:44:52.700 and saw the conditions,

00:44:53.920 they might be

00:44:54.460 a little more eager

00:44:55.640 to ask questions

00:44:57.060 about whether this is

00:44:57.880 the way we want

00:44:58.300 to do things in Texas.

00:44:59.240 That may be another

00:44:59.960 conversation for another day.

00:45:01.660 But I had these

00:45:02.640 same conversations

00:45:03.280 with Melissa

00:45:03.900 and I can tell you

00:45:05.220 right now,

00:45:05.740 Melissa is a victim

00:45:06.580 of severe childhood

00:45:08.640 and adult sexual

00:45:10.120 and physical abuse.

00:45:11.680 We had this conversation

00:45:12.840 on death row

00:45:13.800 just a few days ago

00:45:15.400 and there's no question

00:45:17.480 to me

00:45:18.040 that she ought

00:45:20.640 to get a new trial.

00:45:21.400 That this stuff

00:45:21.860 ought to be in front

00:45:22.520 of a jury.

00:45:23.700 And again,

00:45:24.560 I'm not the judge.

00:45:25.260 I'm not the fact finder here.

00:45:26.480 That's not my role.

00:45:27.400 It's not your role

00:45:28.100 unless you're called

00:45:28.780 on a jury.

00:45:30.280 But I looked at her

00:45:31.680 in the eyes

00:45:32.140 with seven of my other

00:45:33.240 legislative colleagues

00:45:34.080 as well,

00:45:34.580 conservatives and liberals

00:45:35.780 and we believe

00:45:37.060 with all of our heart

00:45:37.780 before we met with her

00:45:38.860 but since we met with her

00:45:39.820 that we cannot execute

00:45:41.200 this woman.

00:45:41.940 We cannot.

00:45:42.560 There's just too much

00:45:43.340 contradictory information

00:45:44.940 out there

00:45:45.260 that the jury

00:45:45.700 needs to hear

00:45:46.280 before we go forward.

00:45:47.680 And there's no harm.

00:45:50.260 What's the harm

00:45:50.980 in us pushing

00:45:51.740 the pause button?

00:45:52.860 What's the harm

00:45:53.500 to the criminal justice system?

00:45:55.580 I would say none at all.

00:45:57.300 There's great harm

00:45:57.920 in us going forward

00:45:58.620 with it,

00:45:59.220 us rushing to it.

00:46:00.720 There's no harm

00:46:01.500 to anybody else.

00:46:02.240 She's going to remain

00:46:02.880 on death row.

00:46:04.340 She's not going to be

00:46:05.140 let free.

00:46:05.880 She's going to remain

00:46:06.660 incarcerated

00:46:07.520 in solitary confinement

00:46:09.380 for nearly 24 hours a day

00:46:10.860 while her case

00:46:11.580 is retried.

00:46:12.220 There's no harm

00:46:13.320 at all

00:46:13.760 in us pushing

00:46:14.640 the pause button

00:46:15.360 and I actually think

00:46:16.420 the benefit

00:46:16.920 to the system

00:46:17.720 is so great.

00:46:19.760 And I'll just say this

00:46:20.880 to kind of wrap up

00:46:21.640 my thoughts on this

00:46:22.520 is what we want

00:46:24.020 more than anything,

00:46:24.800 what we should want

00:46:25.440 more than anything

00:46:26.180 is a government

00:46:27.540 that we can trust,

00:46:29.180 that is fair,

00:46:30.440 that's transparent.

00:46:31.660 We might disagree

00:46:32.520 on some of the issues

00:46:33.600 but I want more

00:46:35.540 than anything

00:46:35.920 a government

00:46:36.340 that's trustworthy

00:46:37.060 even when I disagree

00:46:39.180 with them.

00:46:39.560 And this to me

00:46:40.660 just reeks

00:46:41.340 of a system

00:46:42.000 that is broken

00:46:42.700 and that cannot

00:46:43.720 be trusted

00:46:44.320 in this case

00:46:45.620 and that's why

00:46:46.460 I think she deserves

00:46:47.120 a new trial.

00:46:48.400 Okay, well thank you

00:46:49.160 so much representative.

00:46:50.200 I really appreciate

00:46:51.480 you taking the time

00:46:52.200 to come on.

00:46:52.700 I think people are

00:46:53.220 going to get a lot

00:46:53.840 out of this,

00:46:54.600 a lot to chew on

00:46:55.560 so thank you.

00:46:56.840 Allie, thanks.

00:46:57.420 Thanks for all your work

00:46:58.260 and your voice.

00:46:59.380 You do a great job.

00:47:00.280 Thank you.

00:47:00.720 You know I'm a big fan

00:47:01.180 of yours.

00:47:01.620 Thank you very much.

00:47:02.220 I appreciate it.

00:47:03.220 Thank you.

00:47:03.620 Thanks.

00:47:03.900 Thanks.

00:47:03.940 Thanks.

00:47:03.980 Thanks.

00:47:04.480 Thanks.

00:47:04.980 Thanks.

00:47:05.480 Thanks.

00:47:05.980 Thanks.

00:47:06.480 Thanks.

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Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 14, 2022

Ep 600 ｜ Debate： Is Death Row Inmate Melissa Lucio Innocent？｜ Guest： Rep. Jeff Leach

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