Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 607 ｜ John MacArthur, Hillsong Documentary & SBC Drama ｜ Guest： Megan Basham

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:01.640 Happy Wednesday.

00:00:03.180 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:05.820 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for a discount.

00:00:08.360 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:19.640 Okay guys, today we are finally talking about this story that came out a few weeks ago about

00:00:25.820 John MacArthur's church and their excommunication of a woman who ended up being a victim of abuse.

00:00:32.400 What really went on there?

00:00:33.820 Is this reporter, Julie Royce, who first came out with this expose,

00:00:37.980 is she just unfairly targeting Grace Community Church?

00:00:41.380 Or is there some truth there that we really need to discuss and understand?

00:00:46.300 And then we are also going to talk about the Hillsong documentary.

00:00:50.540 We are going to talk with my friend Megan Basham from The Daily Wire.

00:00:54.980 This is really her beat.

00:00:56.560 She kind of talks about the cross-section of culture and politics and the evangelical church.

00:01:02.160 And then we're going to talk about some things happening within the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:01:06.120 And really the theme is abuse and allegations of abuse and how it's kind of unfairly used

00:01:12.840 as a talking point to try to defeat your political enemies within the church, which is really ugly.

00:01:19.580 So she is going to give us, as a journalist, some insight into these things.

00:01:23.500 So first, I want to talk about myself, this John MacArthur story, because I just want to tell you my reaction to it.

00:01:32.140 And part of the reason why I haven't talked about it quite yet.

00:01:35.160 Julie Royce, she is a journalist.

00:01:37.620 She's had some really good reporting over the years.

00:01:40.960 She's had some reporting that people would probably call petty because she seems to have had it out for John MacArthur for a long time.

00:01:48.460 She's accused him of being a prosperity preacher, which if you know anything about John MacArthur, he is not at all a prosperity preacher.

00:01:56.140 And it just kind of seems like she's a little bit on the progressive end.

00:01:59.220 I wouldn't call her like a full-on liberal, but she definitely seems to be against a lot of the more conservative Baptists within evangelicalism.

00:02:10.380 And like I said, some of her reporting has been legitimate against some church leaders, but a lot of it has been more just kind of like petty and superficial and personal.

00:02:20.740 And because she seems to have some personal beef or a personal thing against John MacArthur, a lot of people are quick to discredit her if she says anything negative about him.

00:02:37.220 So a few weeks ago, she published an article titled Exclusive John MacArthur Shamed Excommunicated Mother for Refusing to Take Back Child Abuser.

00:02:49.740 And I saw this and I was immediately disturbed.

00:02:54.360 I thought, well, this can't be true.

00:02:57.160 There's no way that this can be true.

00:02:58.760 This has to be.

00:02:59.400 I didn't even know who Julie Royce was when I first came across this article.

00:03:02.700 I think one of you maybe sent it to me in my Instagram DMs.

00:03:06.120 But then I read it and I was really disturbed because there's a lot of detail.

00:03:11.760 There's a lot of seeming corroboration in this particular story.

00:03:15.920 And then I went to Twitter and I wanted to see if the people that I respect and even the people I disagree with were talking about this or if this really just was, you know, some propaganda from some rag that just needed to be dismissed and was completely fabricated.

00:03:28.960 And I was actually disturbed, not first by what people on the other side of the political aisle or theological aisle were saying about this, but what some people on my side of the political and theological were saying about this.

00:03:45.140 Really kind of just like making fun of this person, Julie Royce, dismissing this, kind of proverbially rolling their eyes or almost laughing at this and just basically calling it gossip and calling her gossip.

00:03:58.700 And I was really disturbed by that because of some of the details that I'm going to talk to you about because they're serious allegations.

00:04:07.940 They're serious allegations and I was looking for someone to be able to fact check what was said in this article and it really seemed like people who, like me, are fans of John MacArthur were kind of just dismissing this out of hands without even addressing what the allegations were.

00:04:26.700 So the allegation is that John MacArthur, that he took time during a service to call out a woman in his church named Eileen Gray for being unwilling to repent.

00:04:38.060 That's on August 18th, 2002.

00:04:41.000 That's when that occurred.

00:04:42.520 And there's actually a video of this happening.

00:04:44.280 So there's no question about whether or not that happened.

00:04:47.260 The questions are what actually happened leading up to this?

00:04:52.260 Why did he call this woman publicly to repentance, which is something that he has done several times?

00:04:58.520 This is something that has biblical precedent that if a church member is unwilling to repent from a sin, this is a professing Christian, a member of the church is unwilling to repent from a sin.

00:05:09.780 There have been steps taken to try to call this person out of sin to repentance.

00:05:13.420 There is biblical precedent for a pastor of a church publicly basically saying, you know, treat this person as an unbeliever.

00:05:22.260 This person needs to call to repentance in the in the hopes that that person will be eventually brought back to Christ and to restoration.

00:05:32.160 The question was, and I think Julie Roys would say the answer to this question is no.

00:05:38.280 The question was, was there reason?

00:05:41.200 Was there reason for this?

00:05:43.020 Because the allegations are that the church was calling this woman, Eileen Gray, to repentance for the sin of not reuniting with her husband who was physically abusing her and was physically and sexually abusing her children.

00:06:01.500 Like that's what the title of this article says, that John MacArthur excommunicated a mother for refusing to take back a child abuser.

00:06:11.400 And we see that there are kind of several receipts of this, that they had been in counseling.

00:06:18.140 There are even some recorded conversations between church counselors and between the couple and between Eileen Gray about this.

00:06:26.400 And she claims that she was basically shamed for separating from her husband and that she was pressured to reunite with her husband even after she said that he was abusive.

00:06:38.300 But the church is claiming that they did not know that there was physical abuse going on, that they did not know that there was any physical abuse of the children going on.

00:06:47.420 And actually, that is verified by the timeline that we did not know that Eileen Gray herself did not know that her husband, David Gray, had been abusing her children, sexually abusing her children until much later.

00:07:01.680 And he actually is now serving in prison for sexually abusing his children for being an abusive person, father, husband.

00:07:09.260 But the question is, how much did the church know when they were counseling her to reunite with her husband?

00:07:18.180 I think they would contend that they did not know everything that was going on at the time when they wanted that kind of restoration and reconciliation.

00:07:28.260 And they did provide her with a safe place to live when they found out that she was in danger.

00:07:35.100 But they would contend that they did not know what was happening with the children, everything that was happening with her.

00:07:41.080 And the other contention is also possibly that John MacArthur did not know everything that was going on at the time of August 18th, 2002, when he publicly called her to repentance.

00:07:54.540 Now, here's the deal.

00:07:56.580 The allegations of abuse here are very serious.

00:08:00.380 What later came out, because he wasn't convicted until 2005,

00:08:04.420 what later came out was heinous stories of abuse.

00:08:09.260 They were heinous stories of abuse, very serious allegations.

00:08:13.180 Eileen was in danger.

00:08:14.460 Her children were in danger.

00:08:17.620 And so I don't think this story needs to be dismissed out of hand.

00:08:21.140 But I do think that we need to be really careful saying automatically that we know that the church, that Grace Community Church and John MacArthur knew everything that they needed to know in order to recognize that Eileen wasn't actually acting in sin by trying to separate from her husband, but was actually trying to protect herself and her family.

00:08:43.360 Right. That's that's that's the question.

00:08:44.920 And I think that the headline is actually very misleading.

00:08:47.600 We know for a fact that at the time that John MacArthur called her out publicly, that it was not known that this man who was a leader in the church, John Gray, her husband, it was not known that he was abusing children.

00:09:03.540 And yet the headline says that John MacArthur called out a woman and excommunicated or excommunicated a woman who was trying to get away from a child abuser.

00:09:11.900 Well, they didn't know at the time that he was a child abuser.

00:09:14.780 So that in itself, that that part of the headline is misleading, which I do think calls into question.

00:09:20.500 OK, are you leaving out any pertinent details here about the timeline, about what else the counselors at the church said, what what other kind of protection and help was provided to her?

00:09:31.060 So all around, I just think Christians have to be very careful. 1.00

00:09:35.100 I think we have to ask really good questions, whether it comes to, you know, any side of the aisle.

00:09:41.960 We don't want to just come to conclusions that confirm our priors because it helps us feel better about our preconceived narratives.

00:09:48.560 You guys know I'm a huge fan of John MacArthur.

00:09:51.860 I think that his ministry, I mean, the impact that he has had just by his faithful exegesis of God's word.

00:10:00.340 I mean, it's hard to even put a number on that or quantify that because he has so drastically not just edified his church,

00:10:09.020 but has been a faithful minister that has then had an impact on the world simply by boldly and clearly preaching the gospel.

00:10:19.300 So, I mean, and theologically on most things, I agree with with John MacArthur and I just really I appreciate his ministry.

00:10:26.380 So you guys know where I'm coming from.

00:10:28.620 Again, what I was uncomfortable with was the immediate and outright dismissal of this story by people who, like me, are fans of John MacArthur because, oh, well, it must just not be true.

00:10:38.740 Look, we're dealing we're talking about a child abuser here. 0.75

00:10:41.400 We're talking about someone who sexually abused children. 0.99

00:10:43.580 We're talking about a pedophile. 0.81

00:10:44.640 Like who was in this church who we don't we don't know whether or not like what happened in trying to protect it.

00:10:54.320 We just don't know.

00:10:55.380 We don't know.

00:10:56.440 So I don't think this story should be dismissed out of hand.

00:10:59.520 I do think that we should take any story like this seriously.

00:11:02.340 I am sure that Grace Community Church takes this seriously.

00:11:05.400 This was 20 years ago now.

00:11:07.480 I don't know how many people are still there who were there then.

00:11:10.060 Again, we don't know everything that was known at the time.

00:11:12.520 I want you guys to know that I'm not ignoring this story.

00:11:15.780 I have tried and really had a hard time finding more details that can fill in and kind of iron out a lot of the confusion surrounding this.

00:11:25.200 But as you will hear us talk about today, the church, just like any institution, is filled with, you know, imperfection.

00:11:34.600 I will say that it is sadder when the church fails, as we will talk about today on this.

00:11:41.760 It's more impactful.

00:11:44.380 It's harder.

00:11:44.860 It's more tragic when the church, who is supposed to be the light of Christ, fails.

00:11:48.640 But the fact of the matter is, is that every church is filled with different kinds of sin.

00:11:52.860 And what we have to do is in the pursuit of holiness and in the pursuit of compassion and obedience to God,

00:11:58.100 we just have to make sure that we are seeking the truth and speaking the truth in love.

00:12:02.420 And so I don't have some grand conclusion, some like grand clarity to offer you here.

00:12:07.300 There's so much, again, that we don't know.

00:12:09.020 I don't want you to think I'm ignoring this, but it's hard for me to talk about a conversation if I don't feel like I can add clarity to it.

00:12:16.420 And because this is so confusing, because it's muddled with different kinds of history of pettiness and dislike and all of that,

00:12:23.200 and even politics, it's hard to bring anything edifying to the conversation.

00:12:28.080 So I just wanted you to know I'm not ignoring it.

00:12:29.920 I take these kind of allegations of abuse very seriously while still believing that the ministry and the church of John MacArthur has had an amazing impact for the gospel.

00:12:38.400 So I guess we just we pray.

00:12:41.040 We pray for truth.

00:12:42.020 We pray for the protection and the help of victims to be the light and the holiness and the love and compassion of Christ in all these different kinds of scenarios

00:12:49.540 and to take the truth and critical thinking whenever it comes to these kinds of conversations and stories really seriously.

00:12:56.260 So I at least hope that helps.

00:12:58.360 I hope that helps some.

00:12:59.980 Now we're going to talk about some other stories.

00:13:02.260 We're going to talk about this Hillsong documentary, as I said, and then this other story within the SBC.

00:13:10.960 OK, let's talk about this Hillsong documentary.

00:13:13.800 Have you seen it?

00:13:14.420 So I've seen about half of it, and it was pretty fascinating, but I'm dying to hear your thoughts first.

00:13:22.340 Well, I really I want to hear your thoughts.

00:13:24.840 So Hillsong on the other end is not is not a church that I traditionally support.

00:13:31.380 And I'm actually pretty quick if I hear criticisms of Hillsong to I mean, because we all have our own biases.

00:13:37.700 It just kind of confirms my priors.

00:13:39.580 Like when we heard the everything about Carl Lentz, about his unfortunate and very tragic affair that he was a part of.

00:13:48.980 It's I was very sad about that.

00:13:50.840 It's devastating.

00:13:51.680 Of course, there was no part of me that was satisfied or happy to hear any of that.

00:13:55.540 But I did think that doesn't really surprise me that much, just kind of based on what I knew about his career and also just the ridiculous and unfactual activism that he had been putting forth on social media.

00:14:10.540 I'm like, oh, this kind of seems to like fit in with that.

00:14:14.200 But I also have been that's also why I have been slow to talk about the Hillsong documentary, because I don't want to talk about it in a way that is just well, this is someone who has never really liked Hillsong talking about how terrible Hillsong is.

00:14:28.460 And documentaries infamously, infamously can leave out information, pertinent information and make people look a certain way or make institutions look a certain way that maybe they're really not.

00:14:40.320 And so some of the, you know, some of the documentary was, yes, I agree with it.

00:14:47.700 And I'm like, yeah, that's obvious.

00:14:49.200 This was obviously kind of like a celebrity church.

00:14:51.640 There were some superficial and not so great things happening there.

00:14:54.980 And then also I realized that it was probably created by people who just don't like evangelical Christianity.

00:15:00.900 And so maybe some of the portrayals weren't quite so accurate.

00:15:03.440 But what did you think?

00:15:05.120 Yeah, so it's funny because one, I also went there.

00:15:08.160 There's picking up on a trend.

00:15:09.480 I think that, you know, the makers of this documentary at Discovery were pretty well aware of how well that Mars Hill podcast did.

00:15:17.840 It was the number one podcast for just months.

00:15:20.160 I mean, and that's pretty astounding to go.

00:15:21.620 A Christianity Today podcast that was very focused on a specific subculture of evangelicalism was so huge.

00:15:28.680 And so I think there was an effort in this documentary to dramatize it.

00:15:33.040 But what's funny to me is coming to it as somebody who, like you, my priors are to be somewhat critical of Hillsong doctrinally, how they practice their faith, how they, you know, even things like watching Carl Lentz go on.

00:15:47.340 And I can't remember if it was The View, but one of those shows.

00:15:49.500 And, you know, when they tried to ask him about abortion or things that have been should have been very easy to answer, he would demure.

00:15:56.160 He would not be direct about what the Bible says about life, what the Bible says about sexuality.

00:16:03.160 So he would just kind of shy away from those controversial topics to be very appealing to the world.

00:16:09.720 And so, yeah, there's a certain irony now that, you know, probably the trendiest new movement in film and podcasting, which is to take down some evangelical movement, has come for Carl Lentz and Hillsong.

00:16:24.340 But at the same time, as I was watching the documentary, I went, the parts of the criticism that resonated most to me were the parts that we've all been talking about for years now.

00:16:35.580 You know, some of the things like as far as being a prosperity gospel.

00:16:39.620 Now, there is a real somewhat prosperity preacher right there.

00:16:42.940 As someone who's rolling up in a limo, someone who's wearing tennis shoes that are thousands of dollars and hobnomming with celebrities.

00:16:49.940 And, you know, so that stuff was very fair to me.

00:16:54.500 And you heard it voiced by some pretty doctrinally sound people, I thought.

00:17:00.440 I don't know the backgrounds of everyone in this documentary, but like the guy behind the Preachers and Sneakers account on Instagram, I went, he sounds really sound.

00:17:08.860 I really appreciated his takes about, you know, where would they put Jesus in this VIP section that they have in their church?

00:17:16.480 Why is there a VIP section in their church?

00:17:18.880 Right.

00:17:19.460 So those things struck me as pretty fair.

00:17:21.860 But then you had other things that you went, it sounds like you're just criticizing church.

00:17:26.320 Yeah.

00:17:26.540 You know, the idea that, well, they try to get other people to come to this church.

00:17:31.860 Well, yeah, that's what you do at church.

00:17:34.040 Right.

00:17:34.380 Or they asked people to serve and didn't pay them.

00:17:38.780 And I'm like, okay, so you don't have a lot of background experience at church.

00:17:43.160 Like that, you know, some of these things were made to sound much more nefarious when I thought that is normal.

00:17:48.060 That, you know, if you've ever been to church, these things are pretty normal.

00:17:52.200 So in that sense, I feel like it didn't do itself many favors.

00:17:56.960 And it was funny to come into it as somebody who was preemptively critical of Hillsong and go, okay, now I'm feeling like I need to defend them a little bit because you guys are attacking in some degree just evangelicalism.

00:18:11.060 Yeah, what church is.

00:18:13.980 I do think that it's a fair criticism when people kind of hold churches who at least allegedly cover up sexual abuse or who are secretly immoral when they hold churches to a higher standard than they do a secular institution.

00:18:31.060 Like, yes, there are a lot of problems within our public education system with child abuse and covering up child abuse.

00:18:37.340 There are lots of different problems in all kinds of secular institutions of this kind of abuse and predation and covering up a bureaucracy and all of that.

00:18:45.980 And but I don't think it really helps Christians to say, well, this is happening in other entities, too, because we should actually be held to a higher standard.

00:18:53.140 I do think it's grosser.

00:18:55.020 I do think it's more hurtful.

00:18:56.860 I do think that it has a worse and larger impact when a church who doesn't purport to be perfect.

00:19:03.320 No, no one has ever said that the church is supposed to be perfect, but we are supposed to be a city on a hill.

00:19:09.520 We are supposed to be salt and light.

00:19:11.280 We are supposed to be representing Jesus, who is perfect.

00:19:14.420 We are supposed to be imitating Christ, who is perfect.

00:19:17.840 And so when we are calling other people to repent from sin, when we are calling other people to get out of the shadows, to get out of darkness, to walk into light, to be ambassadors of light in all of these holy high callings that, of course, is made possible by grace, but is still a holy and high calling.

00:19:35.460 When we're calling other people to that and calling out other people in the world for their sin, and then behind the scenes, this kind of nefarious activity is allegedly happening or is happening in some cases, no matter what kind of church we're talking about, I actually do think it's fair for the world and for Christians to say, that's even grosser. 0.82

00:19:57.800 That's grosser, and that is worse than a secular entity doing the same thing. 1.00

00:20:04.420 Not that the criticism should be hypocritical or that the world should be criticizing things they shouldn't, but I actually do kind of understand the even greater reaction to allegations of this kind of immorality when it's in the church rather than other institutions, if that makes sense.

00:20:24.920 Yeah, and you know, I think that was probably the part that was most effective, and sadly, you know, maybe it wasn't as emphasized as some other elements because you went, it's an old story, right?

00:20:35.800 It's an old story, people using Jesus to try to get rich, people using the gospel to try to build an earthly ministry, and I thought that actually, to me, the most effective, so I haven't finished watching it.

00:20:46.080 I'm about halfway through the third episode, but I felt like that early part where they sort of showed how this fit into the 80s prosperity movement and the 90s and how Brian Houston, the founder of Hillsong, was really following a map and a formula that he saw built up in the United States.

00:21:04.140 And he looked at that and went, okay, I can do that, and so the first thing you do is you tell people that, you know, God's here to fulfill all your dreams, that, you know, you're here to be served by God and not serve God.

00:21:17.560 And that was something that, you know, really stuck out to you in a lot of those early moments of the church that you went, this thing was built on sand from the beginning.

00:21:26.340 And so there was a sense of maybe inevitability that it was eventually going to come to that.

00:21:31.120 And, you know, I mean, as far as Carl Lentz, I think I'm with you that you go when those revelations came out that he was having an affair, that, you know, he had been inappropriate with women on staff.

00:21:44.580 I went, I'm not particularly surprised by that.

00:21:47.320 It seemed like he was pursuing worldly pleasure in a lot of fields from the get-go.

00:21:56.340 And it's really unfortunate, and it's really sad.

00:22:00.080 And I do think that, just like with the rise and fall of Mars Hill, how they seem to do this too, although they would probably say that they're not.

00:22:07.440 But in the Hillsong documentary and any accusations of the church that is then used, even though, as I said, I do think criticisms can be fair, and even more intense criticisms of the church can be fair when it comes to this.

00:22:18.860 When it's then used, as you said, to try to attack the foundations of what church is or attack Christianity as a whole or attack the Bible in general, it really reminds me of kind of the people on the left who say that because we've had slavery, because we've had different forms of discrimination, that the Constitution and that America's foundation is inherently bad.

00:22:39.740 When actually, it was like our founding documents that gave us the ability to fight against institutionalized discrimination and slavery and things like that.

00:22:49.620 The founding documents were good.

00:22:51.500 Slavery is an example of us diverting away from our founding principles, not because of our founding principles.

00:22:57.300 And in the same way, a lot of the ugliness that we see in the church today, and I'm talking about not just alleged abuse, but when we see real abuse and immoral activity within the church, it's not because of the Bible and it's not because of solid theology, it's in spite of it.

00:23:19.000 I mean, the Bible is radical in its affirmation of the worth and the dignity of people.

00:23:27.840 We've talked about many times as much as feminists might hate the portion of Ephesians 5 that talks about wives submitting to their husbands as they submit to the Lord. 0.96

00:23:37.260 The radical part of that when Ephesians was written was not wives submitting to their husbands, but telling husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

00:23:47.000 The adult free male at the time in the secular and the pagan world then had no obligation to care for his wife, to love his wife, to sacrifice himself for his wife.

00:23:58.200 What? That was not something that was expected of the adult free male at the time.

00:24:04.020 And so the church has always been a radical refuge for the most vulnerable, for women and for children.

00:24:10.740 And it is because of the basis of Christianity, is because of what the scriptures tell us about women and children, that we are supposed to be that refuge.

00:24:18.900 So when we do actually see cases of abuse or immorality that is victimizing people, that is a step away from what Christianity is supposed to be.

00:24:28.160 That's not because of the tenets of Christianity.

00:24:30.420 That is sin, unfortunately, which does exist everywhere.

00:24:34.080 Well, and what I really, I will say that I did like about the documentary, and I actually would tell people, you know what, yeah, watch it.

00:24:40.480 I think it's worth watching.

00:24:41.760 You know, like I said, there were parts of it that where I felt a little defensive of some of the things they were going after.

00:24:46.880 But what was really kind of cool was how the sound doctrinal criticism stood out compared to, oh, you know, underneath, they really don't affirm LGBT people.

00:24:58.380 So you looked at those two things and you went, one of these things is not like the other.

00:25:02.220 And it felt like to me, as you were watching the series, that the people who brought sound biblical criticism just stood out compared to the, you know, kind of the typical what you would expect about me.

00:25:15.420 Underneath, they're not really affirming.

00:25:17.420 You're like, well, yeah, because, you know, that was actually one of those.

00:25:20.440 Yeah, they try to conflate those two things to say, oh, they're not affirming of gay people.

00:25:25.040 It's because they, you know, they covered up abuse or whatever it is.

00:25:29.220 And to say that those two things are connected together when obviously that is false.

00:25:33.880 That was one of the few things that, you know, I kind of I've always gone, well, you know, give Hillsong this.

00:25:39.500 They have stood strong on that issue.

00:25:41.660 And, you know, I wondered how if that would last, to be honest with you, because they felt like they compromised in so many other areas.

00:25:47.600 I wondered if they would compromise in that area.

00:25:49.720 So, you know, it was interesting when they brought that up.

00:25:52.640 I went, that was one of the few things that actually, when I would look at Hillsong, that I went, well, they're standing by biblical principle on that topic, at least.

00:26:01.860 Right, right.

00:26:02.700 And, you know, the documentary alleges a lot of things about Brian Houston covering up child abuse, embezzling church funds.

00:26:12.940 I'm sure there are a lot of details in that investigation that people are still digging through and uncovering.

00:26:18.720 And there are people that I know, just like, I mean, just like anyone, there are people that are going to continue to go to bat for him who claimed that these allegations are false, that they're not true, that he has been a leader of integrity.

00:26:33.380 And there are people that I respect, that I really like, who are solid theologically, who defend Brian Houston and say that these allegations are false.

00:26:41.480 And so there's always going to be a lot of that, though, within the church, which does kind of make it complicated.

00:26:49.060 It's really not always like a clear cut.

00:26:52.120 Well, if you're theologically this bent, you're going to think this way.

00:26:55.240 And if you're in this camp, you're going to think this way.

00:26:57.560 I think this way these matters can be complicated because sin and allegations of sin is really complicated.

00:27:04.200 I mean, they just make things really messy, which is one reason why the grace that God gives us is so clarifying and such a gift.

00:27:11.920 Well, and you kind of go, I don't know why we're always sort of shocked about some of these things.

00:27:18.100 We definitely want to be held to a higher standard.

00:27:19.960 But look, we don't have a Bible that gives us heroes, really.

00:27:23.300 I mean, we have heroes of the faith that we follow, but all of them have these very that that's so much of what tells me that the Bible is a document I can trust because you have these stories that are super unflattering.

00:27:35.900 And it would not give us these records of David's sin, of Moses's cowardice, of his temper, of the bizarre drunkenness of Noah, of all of these things.

00:27:46.100 Or even, you know, in the New Testament, you go, Paul's having to write these letters going, tell those two women to quit bickering and fighting. 0.92

00:27:52.680 And you go, look, we're still in the flesh and we need that.

00:27:56.820 And that is why there needs to sort of be these systems of accountability.

00:28:00.840 And maybe that's the theme of today is you go, there seems to be breakdowns of systems of accountability.

00:28:05.900 That are there to protect us against the influence of the flesh, which is going to come.

00:28:11.120 Yeah. And I'm not sure.

00:28:12.260 I mean, in some ways, maybe social media has helped because it is almost like a form of accountability.

00:28:17.340 But at the same time, it just creates also these echo chambers and presumptuous people who their assumptions about a certain person and about a certain story are just confirmed.

00:28:29.540 And the narratives are pushed that aren't necessarily true because people believe what they want to believe.

00:28:34.800 And so there are some goods to the technology that we're seeing that is, you know, revealing stories in the church.

00:28:40.200 But there's also just like a lot of bads.

00:28:42.100 And I think all of us need to just check ourselves and check our hearts and check our motivations and check our words and the questions that we're asking when it comes to any kind of troubling story in the church to make sure that we are still seeking truth.

00:28:54.020 And we're not seeking either to, like, dismiss stories that make us uncomfortable or to accept stories that make us comfortable in our biases.

00:29:01.820 I think that we're probably called to that as Christians.

00:29:03.840 I want to talk just briefly because some people were asking me about this and you kind of gave me some information a little bit.

00:29:16.060 But yesterday, there was, in the sub-Twitter world of evangelicalism, which I think you are probably more familiar with and inundated with than I am, there was some drama between, and I don't want, this is not just gossiping.

00:29:32.540 This actually is a story that really matters and, you know, is significant.

00:29:36.200 There was some back and forth between members of the SBC, Tom and Jennifer Bach, they're a married couple, they're conservative Christians.

00:29:46.020 He's taken some heat for some conservative things that he has said on Twitter several times within the SBC.

00:29:52.420 And Karen Swallow Pryor, who I would call a progressive, she might not call herself full-on progressive, but she's progressive in a lot of ways.

00:30:00.080 Tell us kind of what you know, just what's public information about what happened, why there were these like weird cryptic tweets between these people and like, why does it matter?

00:30:13.440 Well, you know, it's funny that you bring that up as we're talking about both of these other topics, because once again, we're getting back to the subject of abuse in the church.

00:30:21.560 So when I look at this story, that is still very much unfolding, you go, what we're taking away from it is part of what's really ugly, like, for example, with the John MacArthur, is this urge to take these messy stories and use them as some sort of political weapon.

00:30:39.000 And as that's unfolding, I will say at this point, my perception is that is what has been happening with the Bucks.

00:30:46.100 So I've spoken to Tom Buck and Jennifer Buck at length about what happened with them.

00:30:50.340 So he is a pastor, as you said, in Texas.

00:30:52.580 He is known for being a stalwart conservative, doctrinally conservative, and not shy about it.

00:30:57.980 He's got some sharp elbows, you might say.

00:31:00.440 And his wife, who is also very lovely, very conservative.

00:31:04.080 Well, part of their story for years within their church, they have been really forthcoming.

00:31:10.940 And, you know, I talked to a couple people who were like, look, this is not a new story.

00:31:13.860 Everyone sort of knew that this is part of their testimony, that when they got married, and Tom Buck freely told me about this, look, I was very critical.

00:31:24.140 I did not know how to be loving to my wife.

00:31:27.560 And that was very hard for her.

00:31:29.180 And she sought mentoring by another Christian woman who really encouraged her in that biblical model of being submissive and being quiet in her spirit and in that way winning him over.

00:31:41.860 And their testimony is that, look, this actually worked.

00:31:45.800 Because of that, Tom also got mentoring from the husband of that woman who was mentoring Jennifer Buck.

00:31:52.040 And it transformed their marriage.

00:31:54.540 And, you know, they both said this was 25 years ago.

00:31:57.860 And one of the sort of gossipy elements of the story that was going around was that, you know, he knew it was an issue when she went to put a cold Coke can on his neck.

00:32:07.480 And he reacted with a smack at her hand.

00:32:09.880 And she was jarred by that.

00:32:11.760 He was jarred by that.

00:32:12.860 They both felt like that was a moment for whatever reason for them that they went, we have a problem here.

00:32:17.660 And so their testimony is that God healed him of that kind of, you know, there's been a question, is this abuse?

00:32:25.580 And they themselves said, you know, we might characterize his language, his maybe you might say cruelty in those early years of their marriage as somewhat abusive.

00:32:36.520 And I'm actually, it's funny, they were not shy to use that word.

00:32:39.540 I'm a little shy to use that word because, you know, I think these days we want to put everybody in the camps of abused and abuser.

00:32:47.380 And sometimes, you know, things develop and I go, I don't know.

00:32:50.520 But this is their testimony.

00:32:52.100 So at some point, Jennifer Buck wrote a lot of her experience, some of what happened in her life.

00:33:02.340 And I don't want to give I'm hedging here because I don't want to reveal something that I shouldn't reveal.

00:33:06.880 Of course, of course.

00:33:08.260 But she had some experiences in her childhood long before she met Tom Buck that were very difficult for her as a child.

00:33:17.560 And she wrote about all of these things in a rough draft of her testimony that included this time in their marriage that they have been very open about.

00:33:26.960 But these things she did not know that she was going to publish them.

00:33:30.860 She didn't quite know, you know, if you've ever written a rough draft of anything, you know, you just sort of spill it all out on the page.

00:33:35.620 And then you come back to it and go, OK, what how do I want to frame this?

00:33:39.760 How do I want to edit it?

00:33:41.080 So they were friendly with Karen Swallow Pryor at the time.

00:33:44.580 And this was several years ago.

00:33:46.520 And and I will say I have exchanged a few emails with Karen Swallow Pryor.

00:33:51.360 So Jennifer Buck says as a friend who, you know, obviously, if you know, Karen Swallow Pryor, she is someone with some pretty strong literary bona fides.

00:34:00.560 She is a literature professor.

00:34:02.900 She has written many books.

00:34:04.420 She is well known for being a very good writer.

00:34:07.600 She's a very good writer.

00:34:09.180 Yes.

00:34:09.680 So Jennifer Buck gave her this rough draft.

00:34:11.880 She says, I was looking just for feedback and a critique.

00:34:15.320 And, you know, what could I do with this?

00:34:19.000 Well, it's funny because this gets very deep in the weeds of Southern Baptist Convention politics.

00:34:23.940 And it's sad that we have to say Southern Baptist Convention politics, but that is a factor here.

00:34:30.760 So as we're coming up on the SBC and the conservative wing of the Southern Baptist Convention is looking to they're seeking the presidency through Tom Askell.

00:34:42.000 And he's sort of on a you might call it a joint ticket with Votie Bauckham to be president of the speakers conference.

00:34:48.600 I think it is so as this is going on great because I love both of them.

00:34:53.980 I do, too.

00:34:55.440 So and Tom Buck is sort of well known as one of their supporters, you might say.

00:35:00.760 Well, basically, a fairly disreputable and I feel very comfortable saying that a disreputable left wing religious site called the Baptist Global Network. 0.75

00:35:11.900 And released a a story about Jennifer's draft that should no one should have seen or had as far as she is contending, except Karen Swallow Pryor.

00:35:25.420 And to sort of truncate this, they start doing some digging and come to find out that apparently this draft has been passed around the SBC for a couple of years, going from hand to hand of people in rather elite circles.

00:35:39.060 Now, Karen Swallow Pryor may disagree with some of this, so I'm going to put that in there.

00:35:46.020 And they said no one else had it but Karen Swallow Pryor and that when this moment came for Tom Askell and Votie Bauckham, who are seeking these positions of leadership at the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:35:56.920 Tom Buck had gone to Willie Rice and brought up some issues in his church that led to really Willie Rice stepping down.

00:36:06.380 And afterward, this document was released.

00:36:09.340 So the Bucks contend that this draft of Jennifer's testimony that she had not given anyone permission to publish and certainly not share was now circulating and was published in some version as a means to harm them and to frame them as abusers.

00:36:27.740 And so for me, looking at this story as it is still unfolding, I go, what's really distasteful is this is the second year in a row that we have seen something like this within the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:36:39.300 People who paid attention last year may remember that this question of how the SBC handles abuse was used, as you might say, a political weapon against the more conservative side.

00:36:52.780 Alleged victims were sort of drunk, drug up to the podiums in to me as a spectator, what was really distasteful and circus like ways.

00:37:01.840 And so now you have this happening.

00:37:04.300 And part of what's difficult for Jennifer Buck is she says, you know, there are things in there that I would not have shared and that make me someone who is an abuse survivor.

00:37:14.420 So while the SBC leadership is on one hand talking about caring for abuse survivors, her allegation is that they have been passing this around and certainly not caring well for her as someone who has an abuse survivor story.

00:37:29.780 Um, so, you know, and that is very deep in the weeds and it's very complicated, but when you step back and look at the sort of macro lesson we need to be taking from this, it's that, um, there's something really kind of gross happening.

00:37:43.160 And that is this tendency to use this subject of abuse in very stark black and white ways to beat someone over the head as an enemy.

00:37:52.640 And I think that is what we're seeing.

00:37:55.800 And, um, so that is the concern that I have, um, that, you know, a lot of these things are very messy.

00:38:01.200 And I also think there's a tendency to cast men who like Tom Buck is very willing to say, look, I, I was very critical and harsh with my wife in our early years and say, nope, that's an abuser.

00:38:12.860 So we're done listening to you and we don't believe in the power of the gospel to redeem.

00:38:17.880 And we're not going to hear that testimony.

00:38:19.600 Instead, we're just going to use it as a story of, um, oh, look, here's an abuser in the SBC where as his own wife is going, this was 25 years ago.

00:38:27.980 And our story is a story of hope and overcoming and redemption.

00:38:31.900 So she's very upset that it's being used in that way against her husband.

00:38:36.500 Right.

00:38:37.320 Because people who are seeing this, who should have never seen it are not seeing the whole context in the whole story.

00:38:42.420 And I just imagine it's very anxiety inducing for her.

00:38:44.920 Gosh, I mean, that's like having your diary almost like released to the public and passed around without any regard to how you might feel.

00:38:52.460 And if she is a victim of, in her words, a form of abuse, then, wow, you're kind of just like reliving that trauma, which is something that I thought that we cared about.

00:39:02.300 And especially those who consider themselves kind of like the egalitarian, almost like feminist portion of the SBC.

00:39:10.100 They say that they care about a lot.

00:39:12.420 I think you're absolutely right that almost the theme is like allegations of abuse rather than just being taken seriously.

00:39:24.700 And in like a somber way, they're almost used as a cudgel, like against your political enemies, which is not actually taking allegations of abuse seriously.

00:39:32.920 That is using people who are victimized by abuse or allegedly victimized by abuse in the church.

00:39:43.260 That's almost like using them as a tool to advance your particular agenda or your vendetta against a person, which is not right.

00:39:50.980 Like there is absolutely a need and a right and biblical way to talk about accusations of abuse and real abuse and what the church does right and what the church does wrong.

00:40:01.840 100%.

00:40:02.200 I don't think those should ever be dismissed.

00:40:04.280 I don't think that they should be laughed at.

00:40:06.200 I don't think that they should be pushed to the side or belittled at all.

00:40:09.000 And maybe we can say that the church traditionally hasn't done a good enough job in reporting on that and being transparent about that.

00:40:17.920 Maybe we can go to that length and say that.

00:40:20.600 Absolutely.

00:40:21.040 But I just think that we need to be sure that our motivations are pure and how we are going about this is in an actual biblical way.

00:40:30.840 And I think maybe the theme of this episode is that at least in the conversations around this subject, I'm not sure that we are, that the church in general, at least our portion of evangelicalism is, not everyone seems to be handling these conversations, which is with as much grace and the pursuit of truth as we possibly can.

00:40:51.840 Well, and let me add one more thing that I should have said as I was first laying all this out in the pursuit of truth is that I did speak to Karen Swallow Pryor.

00:40:59.360 And, you know, we've only had like one very quick email exchange and then I have just been busy.

00:41:04.200 But she says her contention is that she understood that she was given this document in order to help Jennifer get it published.

00:41:14.220 So I just want to be very clear that she said she was not spreading it around in a gossipy way.

00:41:20.580 So, you know, and as I said, this is still important.

00:41:23.500 But she did share it?

00:41:23.740 Yeah, but I believe her contention is that she thought Jennifer wanted her to share it with potential publications.

00:41:32.580 So that is her contention.

00:41:35.180 And again, you know, it's very sort of premature at this point.

00:41:38.520 I mean, as you said, Allie, this story has been just sort of starting to make the rounds and there's been a lot of backbiting trying to sift through details.

00:41:46.880 So that's kind of the point I'm still at in the process.

00:41:50.120 So, you know, I would say even take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

00:41:53.520 So this is my perception after having spoken to the principals over the last few days of what's happening with that.

00:41:58.860 But, you know, my my analysis, like you said, so far at this point is, yes, I do not like this tendency to use this question of abuse as a cudgel, as something to score political points.

00:42:10.200 And definitely as, you know, last year, watching what happened, you know, there were leaked documents, there were leaked audios or recordings.

00:42:18.120 It felt like you were going into a presidential election and they were October surprises.

00:42:23.800 It was very political.

00:42:25.780 And I went.

00:42:26.200 You're talking about within the SBC.

00:42:27.840 Yes, within the SBC and their convention.

00:42:30.220 I went, nothing about this feels Christian, loving, biblical.

00:42:36.560 It doesn't really feel like there's pursuit of truth here.

00:42:39.100 That was part of what really bothered me about what happened last year.

00:42:42.460 And to sort of watch the same kind of things happening this year, this year in a pursuit of control over an institution that heads up the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S.

00:42:55.320 One other little wrinkle about this abuse thing that, you know, I've watched it as a trend unfolding as the thing that we're all using to beat each other up is it's even sort of coloring how we talk about scripture.

00:43:07.120 And that has surprised me.

00:43:08.160 You know, I feel like some of this tendency to want to say David raped Bathsheba.

00:43:13.080 I've heard a few pastors that I really respect, like John Piper, say things like that.

00:43:17.760 And I go to the text and I go, I don't think you have a defense for making that argument other than right now.

00:43:24.360 Abuse is kind of a very hot topic.

00:43:26.400 And so we're looking for ways to pull that in.

00:43:28.680 So I don't know if you've heard that.

00:43:29.760 But, you know, I had heard.

00:43:30.940 I have.

00:43:31.180 I've heard that from progressives.

00:43:32.260 I hadn't heard that from John Piper.

00:43:33.800 But I do think that that is using kind of like our current cultural moment and imposing that on to scripture.

00:43:42.560 Maybe there's like a debate and discussion to be had about that.

00:43:46.600 I mean, the Bible is what it is.

00:43:48.460 And God used David how he did.

00:43:51.040 And so it almost like, I mean, either way, God still redeemed and forgave and used David.

00:43:59.820 But, yeah, it is a little strange.

00:44:01.800 It seems like it's trying to use that story to then color our cultural moment right now.

00:44:07.120 Right.

00:44:07.400 I go, maybe it's a discussion we can have.

00:44:09.240 But to sort of boldly proclaim that the Bible says David raped Bathsheba.

00:44:13.580 I go, that's a bridge too far for me.

00:44:16.100 I just don't see that in the text.

00:44:18.020 Right.

00:44:18.360 Right.

00:44:18.600 Yeah.

00:44:19.420 Yeah.

00:44:19.620 There's a lot of things going on.

00:44:21.000 And I think it's interesting for us to just talk about it.

00:44:23.180 I think that we both realize like we don't have a whole lot of conclusions to be able to say this is, you know, exactly what happened in every scenario.

00:44:31.500 But I do think it's important that people understand that, you know, I, we are not ignoring conversations like this.

00:44:38.720 And really, we've already established the theme.

00:44:41.500 But the conclusion to all of it is that thankfully, like we, as imperfect as all of us are, as many disagreements as we have, not just within the church, we're talking about like a subset of Protestantism, a subset of conservatism, and then like a subset of like Baptist Christians.

00:44:59.500 And so we're talking about like a very specific and small portion.

00:45:03.780 But even with that, within that, we have so many disagreements and imperfections and sin and allegations and all of that.

00:45:10.600 But the good news is, is that we do serve a perfect God whose way is perfect, whose gospel is perfect, who promises that he is going to put an end to all disagreements and dissent and division, both within and without the church, and that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

00:45:34.620 And of course, we are to be the best witnesses, the best ambassadors that we possibly can for that gospel, that at the end of the day, thank the Lord that we don't worship pastors, that we don't worship any people, we don't worship any institutions, and that our disagreements on Twitter are not the end-all be-all.

00:45:52.060 But Jesus is, and the gospel is, and his way is perfect.

00:45:55.100 So if anyone is listening to this and thinking, wow, y'all got problems.

00:45:58.220 Yeah, every family does.

00:45:59.680 Families do have problems.

00:46:00.820 Sometimes we're still sinful people, and these things aren't taken lightly, but your salvation comes from the Lord, and he is perfect, and he will never fail you, and his compassions never fail.

00:46:12.600 His mercies renew every morning, and so even as we are imperfect, God is not.

00:46:17.660 And so that is our hope, and he knows the truth, and one day all things hidden will be revealed, and that is also what we can take heart knowing.

00:46:25.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:26.160 And, you know, and I take heart in the New Testament sometimes when you read of the backbiting, and Paul and Barnabas had their issues, and, you know, the ladies that Paul had to write letters to saying, okay, get those two to quit bickering.

00:46:38.380 I'm like, look, this is not new.

00:46:40.480 You know, we're this side of heaven.

00:46:42.800 We're still flesh.

00:46:43.860 We still have sinful natures.

00:46:45.320 It doesn't mean we ignore it or sweep it under the rug, but these things are going to come up in the church, too.

00:46:50.220 And that is why I love our gospel, because it doesn't hide those things from the world and doesn't try to pretend that we're going to be perfectly holy from then on out.

00:46:59.460 Yeah.

00:46:59.800 Yes and amen.

00:47:00.560 Well, thank you so much, Megan, for taking the time to come on.

00:47:03.020 I really appreciate it for you getting in the weeds and all of our SBC stuff that's going on, and I'm sure people will enjoy your insight.

00:47:09.620 So thank you so much.

00:47:11.340 Absolutely.

00:47:11.900 Thanks for having me.

00:47:12.760 Thanks.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - April 27, 2022

Ep 607 ｜ John MacArthur, Hillsong Documentary & SBC Drama ｜ Guest： Megan Basham

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