Ep 609 ｜ Tim Keller’s Terrible Abortion Take
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Summary
Is Tim Keller okay? Is he a bad teacher? Does he have nothing good to contribute to the conversation about abortion? We talk about this and more in this week's Relatable Monday episode of Relatable. Thanks for listening and Happy Monday!
Transcript
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This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for a discount.
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Okay, y'all, I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.
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I hope that you are starting to ring in the summer wherever you are,
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or if you're up north, maybe you're just now ringing in the spring,
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which is always exciting when things get a little bit warmer.
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We celebrated a one-year-old birthday party in my family this weekend.
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I can't believe it's been one year since I gave birth to my last child.
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The time really does go by so quickly, and I know that's cliche.
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And so we made some precious memories this weekend,
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Oh yeah, I was also going to tell you guys that I've kind of failed a little bit
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on my whole healthy eating, working out endeavor that I committed to do with you
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I got a stomach bug, and that kind of derailed me because when you're recovering from a stomach
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bug, you don't really want to eat just meat and vegetables.
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You really need some carbs to refuel yourself, and that's what I did, and that kind of just
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got me off track, and I also didn't want to work out.
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I didn't want to expend that kind of energy when I was recovering from a stomach bug,
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and then I was traveling, and so I've gotten off rails, but I'm back on, baby.
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We're back on today, so if you've stayed committed for the past couple of weeks, good job.
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I was at first, then some things happened, but now I'm back on track.
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So for the month of May, we're getting on track.
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We're working out for at least 10 minutes every day, and we're going to cut out the junk food.
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That's my commitment, and it's not about, I saw some comments when I was talking about
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this a couple of weeks ago, resisting the Easter candy.
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It's not about just like losing weight or being super strict about everything you eat.
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That's something I need in this area of my life, and so I am trying to re-implement that.
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So if you want to start today or if you want to restart today, here we are.
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Just wanted to get some personal stuff at the beginning before we get into our more serious
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It's going to be a fun episode, but it's also going to be serious because we're talking
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about Tim Keller and asking the question, is Tim Keller okay?
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Based on this Twitter thread that he tweeted last week and then doubled down on and then
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tripled down on over the weekend, we are going to try to answer this question.
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Is Tim Keller, who I think is a brilliant theologian in a lot of ways, is he okay?
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He tweeted this thread talking about his views on abortion and really tried to strike this,
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what he would probably call a balance, what I would call moral relativism and a false equivalency
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between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to abortion.
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His argument was so terrible and that breaks my heart and breaks my brain as someone who
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Let me back up a little bit before we go through this thread and before I respond to this thread,
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let me say that I really appreciate Tim Keller in a lot of ways.
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Now, a lot of you out there, I know I can see the comments on YouTube now.
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You're going to be saying, oh, Tim Keller, he has been a wolf in sheep's clothing for a long time.
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He has nothing good to contribute to the Christian conversation.
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There are definitely going to be people listening and watching you think that.
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There's also going to be people listening and watching who are thinking, what?
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Maybe that's what you're thinking or you're thinking he is the best contribution to modern
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And there's nothing that he's ever said is wrong.
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And if Tim Keller says it, then it must be right because he is so perfectly wise.
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I probably am closer to the latter description, actually,
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because I have probably read more books from Tim Keller than I have from any other single author.
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He has helped me a lot from the time that I really became a Christian in high school
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His books, let's see, The Reason for God, Making Sense of God, The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness.
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The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness was actually one inspiration for the book that I wrote a couple
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And I'm sure that there are other books, there are, there are many other books that he's
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written that I've read that I just can't think of.
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Oh, The Meaning of Marriage was very instrumental for us.
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That's what we read, my husband and I read when we were engaged.
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I do think he is really wise that he has had incredible contributions to the faith.
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Just in my own thinking, in my apologetics, in my basic understanding of the Bible, I
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will still recommend to you The Reason for God and Meaning of Marriage and Every Good
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Those are probably the three that I would recommend most.
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But over the past couple years, I've been really disappointed in what I see as not just
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Yes, we can be free as Christians to disagree about some tertiary or even secondary things
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when it comes to how we see these cultural and political issues.
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But really, it seems to me a lack of critical thinking from Tim Keller when it comes to some
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of these issues like abortion and abortion policy.
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That's troubling to me because I know that he doesn't lack the capacity to think hard about
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And yet this tweet that we're about or this tweet thread that we're about to get into
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shows exactly that or worse, it shows that he has thought about it and he doesn't want
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to share his opinions publicly because he knows that conservatives will pounce on the fact
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that he's probably a progressive when it comes to things like abortion.
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All right, let's talk about our friend Tim Keller.
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So he tweeted a few days ago, churches must not maintain unity at the expense of the gospel.
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Churches should not destroy unity or fellowship over political differences.
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So I always find that vague tweets like this aren't particularly helpful because they leave
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the reader wondering, well, what are you talking about?
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Let's define our terms, which we have learned, especially over the past few years, how important
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defining your terms is because as Christians or just as people in general, when one person
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uses the word equity, they could mean something totally different than what someone on the
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other side of the aisle means when they say equity or equality or justice or love or empathy.
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And so it's always really important to define our terms.
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And as Christians, we always ask the question, where are you getting that definition from?
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Are you getting the definition of, for example, love from the Bible, or are you getting the
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If your definition of love means unconditional tolerance of someone's identity, self-stated
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identity or someone's sin, well, then that's not biblical love because God is love and he is
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So anything that God says is wrong, we from love would also say is wrong.
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And so as Christians, we not only define our terms, we use our critical thinking skills
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to do that, to try to get on the same page as someone, but we also make sure that we
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are going to scripture to define the terms that we're using.
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So when Tim Keller says that we should not destroy unity or fellowship over political differences,
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But it depends on what you mean by political differences.
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If what you mean by political differences is that maybe we disagree on some welfare policy,
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we disagree on how exactly to fix the immigration issue in our country or what kind of or whether
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or not bail reform is a good change for so-called criminal justice or dealing with crime and
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Yeah, those are some political differences that should not divide us as a church, even though
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I might think that you are completely wrong on all of those things and we can have strong
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But at the end of the day, we don't have to leave the church over those things.
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The Bible does, I think, speak to those issues, but perhaps not explicitly and in a way that
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indicates someone's salvation, if that makes sense.
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However, if by political differences, you are talking about something like abortion, you're
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talking about something like, can a man change into a woman and become a woman and then be
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If you're talking about sexuality and the definition of marriage, if that's what you mean by political
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differences, then yes, those things can and actually should divide a church.
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Because for the Christian, those are not political differences.
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Those are theological differences, deep foundational theological differences.
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They actually go all the way back to Genesis 1.
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And if you believe, for example, that abortion is okay, that it's something, maybe you think
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of it as a necessary evil that you just have to keep legal, or maybe you think that it's
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something that's fine, because the baby inside the womb is a potential human, as that side
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And you just think it's a matter of bodily autonomy, that a woman should be able to make
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Or if you believe that a man can become a woman, or that gender fluid or non-binary is a real
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thing, or that a man should be able to, or that it's perfectly acceptable and not sinful
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at all for a man to be able to marry another man, well, that goes back to what you actually
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That goes back to whether you think God created the heavens and the earth.
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If you believe that God created the heavens and the earth, which is the most controversial
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statement in the entire Bible, then you also believe that God is the authority over
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the heavens and the earth, and you define things as he defines them.
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Yes, those things have become political and cultural issues, but for the Christian, they're
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They are fundamentally theological, and they are theologically fundamental.
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So if as a church you find yourself disagreeing on those things, really what it means to be
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human and what it means to be made by God and what it means to submit to God's authority,
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Now, Tim Keller then expounds upon it in a way that I think always comes across as very
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So you see this a lot from—and I would classify Tim Keller in a lot of ways as woke, so I'm
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That you see this a lot from woke kind of social justice types.
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And by the way, they always claim to be politically neutral, and they never actually are.
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They just think that their progressive perspective on things is not political.
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They throw a vague thing out there, and then they're so mad when the rubes don't understand
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and ask for clarity and ask to define terms as if you should just read Tim Keller's brilliant
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I recently wrote about how churches should not destroy unity or fellowship over political
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The replies show that many American evangelicals have no coherent understanding of how to relate
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Here's the original tweet, and then he quote tweets the tweet that I read to you.
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It's not that he sent out a vague tweet without any explanation at first of what the heck he was
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talking about, what political differences he was referring to.
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It's the evangelical American's fault that you don't have any understanding.
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One, it is a sin to worship idols or any other, or any God other than the true God.
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If you ask evangelicals if we should be forbidden by law to worship any other God than the God
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We allow that terrible sin to be legal, but if you ask them if Americans can be forbidden
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Now, why make the first sin legal and never talk about it, and the second sin illegal at
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At the very least, it shows a lack of knowing how to apply the Bible to politics.
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Since we can't simply say if the Bible says it's sin, it should be illegal, how do we choose
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Please don't say, I just want to see the Ten Commandments made law in society that's too
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The Bible tells us that idolatry, abortion, and ignoring the poor are all grievous sins,
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but it doesn't tell us exactly how we are to apply these norms to a pluralistic society.
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We are to help the poor, but the Bible doesn't tell us which political strategy, high taxes
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and government services versus low taxes and private charity to use.
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The Bible binds my conscience to love the immigrant, but it doesn't tell me how many legal immigrants
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I know abortion is a sin, but the Bible doesn't tell me the best political policy to decrease
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or end abortion in this country, nor which political or legal policies are most effective
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The current political parties will say that their policy most aligns morally with the Bible,
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And so our churches should not have disunity over debatable political differences.
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It is also why I've never publicly or privately told Christians who they should vote for.
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I have also never told anyone they should vote for Democrat or Republican, depending on
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We can more or less find alignment with biblical morals.
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I believe all Christians should be active in politics, but it is unwise to identify Christianity
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Once again, the exasperation with you idiot plebeians.
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People are focusing on the example abortion is physical harm and not the principle.
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You can do the same object lesson about gay marriage.
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All right, let me respond to a little bit of this.
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And I think what we find is that he has actually thought about it, but I still think that he
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I still think that this shows very superficial thinking about what a political difference
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It also, to me, shows a misunderstanding of what the parties actually represent.
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Like, what is the stance that they actually represent?
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So the state is not going to establish a religion.
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So that is why we do not prohibit idolatry in this country.
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That is why we do allow people to worship whatever god they want to worship.
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We do, however, believe in outlawing murder because we don't believe in anarchy.
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So, of course, there was some thought by the founders when they enshrined our Bill of Rights
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into thinking what is going to be made illegal and what is not.
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When they said in the Declaration of Independence that we are entitled to life, liberty, and the
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What we see there, in principle, is that the most fundamental, the most basic responsibility of
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even the smallest and most limited government is to protect the taking of innocent life.
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And so it's not really hard to understand, okay, well, why don't we force people to only worship
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the god of the Bible and not other gods, but then we don't apply the same principle to murder?
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Because we don't live in a theocracy, but we also don't live in anarchy.
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And so because of that, we believe that the government has a responsibility to protecting
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Now, of course, we look forward to the day when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that
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Jesus Christ is Lord and that everyone will worship, that we all will worship the one true God.
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And so we do, we absolutely do look forward to that day.
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But because we do live in a non-theocracy, because we do live in a pluralistic society,
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we do have to decide how we care for the most vulnerable while also allowing the freedom of religion.
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And so it's not really that complicated or that complex about why we should restrict murder the
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way that we should and why we don't ban idolatry.
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If you don't believe that the government should restrict murder, then you are pro-anarchy.
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Christians understand that not every sin is going to be forbidden by law.
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I don't think that's the argument that pro-lifers make.
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I think that some sins should, obviously, like murder, like theft.
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There are plenty of things that were sins first that are outlawed by law, and that's a good thing.
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I just, I happen to believe that murder, including murder of a child inside the womb, should be outlawed.
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But we understand not every single sin that the Bible calls sin is going to be outlawed by the state.
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The argument is not for pro-lifers that every single thing that the Bible calls sin is going
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to be or even should be a matter of state restriction.
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Like abortion should be a matter of state protection and state restriction.
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Because we are talking, again, about the most fundamental and basic responsibility of the
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government, which is to protect the right of an innocent person not to be murdered.
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I'm going to get into what I think is his gross misunderstanding of the positions of the
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political parties on abortion in just one second.
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All right, so Tim Keller says that we should debate.
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We are debating between Republicans and Democrats how best to end abortion or how best to decrease
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He says that the Bible doesn't really talk about what is the policy to decrease or end abortion.
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First of all, the Bible actually does speak to, like, if you're going to use that argument,
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the Bible actually does say the best policy for murder, the best punishment for murder.
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Here, Genesis 9-6 tells us this, before the creation of Israel, before civilization, before
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he gives the law to Israel, and that is the death penalty.
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So you can't say that the Bible doesn't speak to it.
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You could say that you don't believe that that applies to our society today because of
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But you can't say the Bible doesn't speak to it.
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The Bible actually does speak exactly to the punishment that God sees fit for murder,
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Genesis 9-6, because it precedes and transcends the creation of Israel and all civilization,
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it is still applicable even, well, I believe it's still applicable as a possible, as a just
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punishment for murder, whether you live in Israel or not.
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It's because the reason that God gives for the death penalty, not just for suggesting
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it, for demanding the death penalty in the case of murder, is because we are made in
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He doesn't say that, you know, I demand the death penalty in this time, in this place,
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He says, I demand the death penalty for murder because man is made in my image.
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So because He values human life so much, because He loves us so much, because we are of incredible
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worth and value as people made in His image, the only punishment severe enough to make a
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And so, again, you can make your argument that that shouldn't apply here in America,
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that we don't have the right system for that, that you don't want that to apply for abortion
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here in the United States for whatever your reason is.
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He says the Bible doesn't speak to the particular policy of how we should deal with abortion.
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And here's how I know that he doesn't understand the debate, really, about abortion and
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He says that we don't know what particular policy, like the Bible doesn't tell us the
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best political policy to decrease or end abortion in this country.
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See, this is an argument that I hear from the left a lot.
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And again, this kind of shows his particular bias, whether he realizes it or not, that restricting
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Restricting abortion is just going to make abortion more dangerous.
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People are still going, women are still going to be getting abortion at the same rate.
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They're just going to travel to a different state or they're going to try to do like some
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Just take care of women and provide them with all this free stuff.
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And then, as we've debunked many times before, they'll show these erroneous charts that are
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the perfect, perfect example of the correlation causation fallacy.
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And they'll show, look, when Democrats are president, the abortion rate goes down.
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But as even the Guttmacher Institute will tell you, which is a pro-abortion research institute,
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there really is no causal relationship between who the president is, Republican or Democrat,
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You have to look at the policies passed by state legislatures.
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For example, when Obama was president, you saw the abortion rate lower than when some
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other people were president, including Republican presidents.
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And people conclude, oh, because Obama was president, women were having fewer abortions
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You know who dominated state legislatures who were in charge of abortion policy while Obama
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was president, Republicans, Republicans passed more pro-life legislation when Obama was president
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during his eight years than in any other time in history.
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And Republicans dominated more state legislatures when Obama was president than I think any other
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And so if you want to try to say that there is a correlation between who is in power or causal
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relationship between who is in power and the abortion rate, then you would have to look
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at not who's president, but who is running the state legislatures.
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Those are the people who are making the laws that actually impact abortion.
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So that chart has always been dumb, and it's never actually corresponded to any kind of good
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There's no evidence whatsoever that Democrat policies are decreasing abortion.
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And yet you will continue to hear that from the left, that it should be about decreasing
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Look, that is one goal of the pro-life movement, of the anti-abortion movement.
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Pro-life is kind of, that term has been bastardized to include too many things, have nothing to
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The point of the anti-abortion movement is not just to decrease abortion, although I
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We are committed to loving and taking care of women and their children and families, fathers
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and their children before, during and after pregnancy.
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Like that is the majority of anti-abortion work.
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That whole, you're only pro-birth myth is just that.
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We dedicate so much of our time, our money, our energy into helping women after they give
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birth, making sure that they are well taken care of.
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And so we are all on board with decreasing abortions, decreasing the felt need.
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I don't believe that there's a need, but a felt need for abortion, decreasing that desperation,
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decreasing the loneliness and the destitution that might lead someone to have an abortion
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to changing people's hearts so that they don't think that they need to sacrifice their child
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for something superficial like a career or for travel or for just like autonomy and independence
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But that is not what changing the law is primarily about.
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Changing the law when it comes to abortion is recognizing the child's humanity, recognizing
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that that life inside the womb is a human being and therefore they are entitled to human
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They're a human being and therefore they are entitled to human rights, the most fundamental
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So changing the law is about recognizing the child in the womb as a human and as someone
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It is not just about, even if abortion did not decrease at all because of the change in
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the law, it would still be right to change the law because you recognize a child's right
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Think about if we decided to not outlaw anything unless there was data proving that there's
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I mean, you would you could possibly live in anarchy because there's all different kinds
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of ways that you could use convoluted data to justify making something legal.
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The law is definitely a deterrent, I think, including in abortion.
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But say you couldn't make that argument at all.
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Say that there was no proof that outlawing murder of someone outside of the womb decreased
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But actually, no, you probably couldn't because I think the reason that murder rates are up
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is because of bail reform and criminal justice reform and the lack of applying the law and
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And so anyway, but if you could make the argument, if you could make the argument that outlawing
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murder of people outside of the womb doesn't actually decrease the number of murders, is that
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Is that the argument for not putting people in jail?
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No, of course not, because that's not the only reason.
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Decreasing something is not the only reason that you make it illegal.
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You make it illegal because it's the right thing to do, because it's not just about punishing
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It's not just about punishing the person who perpetrated the crime.
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It is about recognizing the legal right of the victim, the legal right of someone to not
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be murdered, the legal right of someone to not be stolen from, the legal right of someone
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And Tim Keller, in all of his thoughtfulness, in all of his brilliance, doesn't seem to understand
00:28:36.980
He thinks we're having a debate about how to decrease abortion.
00:28:39.980
That is not primarily the goal of the anti-abortion movement.
00:28:45.700
Now, no one on the Democratic side is talking about how to decrease abortion, okay?
00:28:53.200
This is not a debate in the United States, between the right and the left, about how to
00:28:58.180
The debate is about whether or not abortion is evil.
00:29:01.540
The left does not believe that abortion is something that needs to be decreased.
00:29:05.140
I'm sure there are some well-meaning people who profess to be Christians and Democrats who
00:29:09.780
would admit in hushed tones that abortion is something that is bad, that we shouldn't
00:29:20.860
Have you spent a little time on the interwebs, my friend?
00:29:24.420
Have you spent any time on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter?
00:29:28.540
There are thousands, if not millions, of people who identify as Democrats, certainly who identify
00:29:39.700
Shout Your Abortion, an organization that was touted by Oprah that I wrote about in my book,
00:29:45.680
they are absolutely committed to, quote, destigmatizing abortion.
00:29:52.060
And there is an entire movement, a large movement of people on the left.
00:29:55.760
I mean, you can read in the New Yorker, which is a very mainstream left-wing outlet, an article
00:30:04.160
You will not get a Democrat to say, or any kind of mainstream left-wing journalist, you
00:30:10.320
will not be able to get them to say that we should decrease abortion.
00:30:13.040
You will not be able to get them to say that abortion is not a good thing.
00:30:18.240
Abortion is a sacrament to the Democratic Party.
00:30:21.420
You have to be pro-abortion, basically without limits, in order to run and to win any statewide
00:30:31.920
There is no chance in heck that a Democrat would be able to run for senator, be able to
00:30:38.700
run for president, certainly no nationwide office.
00:30:44.220
You wouldn't be able to run for anything statewide or nationwide as a Democrat if you are anti-abortion
00:30:52.140
in any way, even just personally anti-abortion.
00:30:56.260
You have to be pro-choice, pro-abortion through all nine months of pregnancy in order to be
00:31:05.940
Just a few years ago, the head of the DNC was saying there is no place for a pro-life
00:31:13.220
Do you don't see the legislation that's coming out of Maryland, that's coming out of New
00:31:16.620
Jersey, that's coming out of Colorado and California that is allowing the decriminalization
00:31:21.700
of perinatal deaths of infants, perinatal is up to 28 days after birth.
00:31:29.460
And they are taking away the criminalization of a baby's death at any point in that perinatal
00:31:40.960
So we're talking about not just abortion, which I think is a form of infanticide, but a post-birth
00:31:47.980
And Tim Keller, you think the debate is actually between whether Republican policies or Democrat
00:32:03.220
Tim Keller is the perfect example of someone who does not understand what time it is, who
00:32:08.380
does not understand the battle that is being waged, which I agree is not primarily between
00:32:13.760
Republicans or Democrats, is not primarily between the right and the left.
00:32:19.600
There are a lot of immoral people on the right.
00:32:21.960
It is ultimately always for the Christian, no matter where you live, no matter what time
00:32:26.060
in history that you're in, between good and evil, darkness and light.
00:32:30.940
And I am not saying that that perfectly falls along left and right lines.
00:32:36.200
Because like I said, there's a lot of darkness on the right too.
00:32:43.680
Everything that they promote, personally and policy-wise, is wicked.
00:32:48.180
Whether it's how they want to treat the poor through programs that say that they care for
00:32:54.160
the least of these, but actually just chain people to government dependence, take away
00:33:02.720
Whether it is the catastrophic immigration policy that is actually incentivizing the deadly track
00:33:09.840
of migrants to our border, and then they're infiltrating the United States in a way that
00:33:18.020
Whether it's their pro-abortion policy, in which they believe that abortion should be allowed
00:33:23.940
through nine months, should be subsidized, should be celebrated, should be destigmatized.
00:33:30.420
Whether it is the gender indoctrination and the body mutilation that they are promoting
00:33:39.620
It doesn't matter what policy or what issue you look at when it comes to the left.
00:33:44.540
It is marked by this wicked, this dark ideology of progressivism.
00:33:51.700
That doesn't mean that everyone who is on the left is a bad person.
00:34:00.140
That doesn't mean that everyone on the left, that their intentions are wrong, even though
00:34:09.640
Although I do think that their heart is misleading them.
00:34:14.640
I'm not trying to characterize everyone on the left as lost or bad, but the ideology that
00:34:25.440
And that doesn't mean that everyone or everything or every issue or every perspective on the
00:34:32.340
I'm seeing that there's more of a chance, though, and there's more of an alignment there
00:34:36.920
when it comes to conservative policies and conservative ideas about immigration, about abortion,
00:34:42.720
about how to actually help the poor and allow them the dignity that comes through work that
00:34:49.820
Yeah, I think that there is more of an alignment there, absolutely, between what the Bible does
00:34:55.920
say about human beings and human rights and righteous and just policy and conservatism.
00:35:03.660
I wouldn't believe the things that I do about politics if I didn't believe that.
00:35:10.020
And apparently Tim Keller simply doesn't see leftism and the current, the current agenda
00:35:18.700
and platform of the Democratic Party does not see it for what it is, especially when
00:35:24.940
Just to reiterate, it is not a debate between the left and the right about how to decrease
00:35:30.020
It is a debate over whether or not abortion is even wrong.
00:35:33.260
Most people on the right would say, yeah, it is.
00:35:36.000
Christians on the right especially would say, yeah, we need to do away with it.
00:35:38.860
Democrats would say it's not even wrong or they would at least say maybe the most like
00:35:45.960
tepid Democrat would say, well, it's at least necessary.
00:35:52.040
And at the end of the day, they would probably admit that they just think that it's a matter
00:36:05.920
He's too scared to say that because at the end of the day, I think Tim Keller is a
00:36:08.820
progressive and he's not going to give any points to the conservative side about that.
00:36:15.920
Now, I agree with Mr. Keller that God is not Republican or Democrat.
00:36:25.880
I'm very thankful that God is not in the Republican Party, that he is not our political
00:36:31.820
Unlike people on the left who tried to paint Jesus as some kind of transgender, queer,
00:36:36.360
communist, feminist, Palestinian, BLM freedom fighter, I don't believe that Jesus is any
00:36:49.420
I simply believe that that reality, that he is king of kings, should shape how we think
00:36:56.380
I don't believe our worldview should be fragmented.
00:36:58.400
I believe that Christianity is going to inform what I think about justice and what I think
00:37:06.480
And I believe that scripture is going to and should inform what the Christian thinks about
00:37:11.080
And for anyone who says separation of church and state, that's not what separation of church
00:37:15.520
Separation of church and state is not the same thing as separation of worldview and how one
00:37:21.800
Separation of church and state simply means that the state should not be interfering in the
00:37:25.020
church's affairs and the church and the state also can't establish any kind of church religion
00:37:34.260
And so people think that separation of church and state means that Christians and only Christians
00:37:38.980
should have to check our worldview at the door and that we can't bring it into the public
00:37:43.140
square, even though progressives, with their pseudo-religion of progressivism, they get
00:37:48.060
to allow their worldview to color and influence everything they think about policy.
00:37:54.160
Apparently, Christians are the only ones who are not allowed to.
00:38:04.160
Everyone is informed by their worldview, Christians included.
00:38:08.120
And we should because, by the way, the God that Christians serve created justice.
00:38:11.560
And his definition of justice did lay the foundation for the basic principles of the Bill of Rights.
00:38:18.740
And so it is good that we allow our worldview to influence what we think about the law and
00:38:25.540
what we think about these so-called political and cultural issues, especially the ones that
00:38:28.860
are pre-political and are actually theological, such as abortion.
00:38:32.640
So Tim Keller, he goes on, he goes on to double and triple down.
00:38:37.940
He says, healthy disagreement, not about biblical morals, but about how these morals are applied
00:38:44.460
to political policies is good, but not something to divide over.
00:38:48.580
No matter how much we yell at each other, Christians can disagree about political applications
00:38:55.580
Okay, so I agree that if you, my sister in Christ, you believe in, I don't know, some kind
00:39:07.220
of disagreements over, I'm trying to even think like what that agreement would actually look
00:39:14.060
Maybe if there's a disagreement in incrementalism versus abolishing abortion altogether.
00:39:19.960
For example, some pro-lifers, they're okay with the restrictions.
00:39:32.220
Okay, let's go all the way back to zero-week restriction.
00:39:35.760
And so they believe that incrementally, a state could get more pro-life.
00:39:43.680
And then you've got the abolish abortion side, which says no incrementalism whatsoever.
00:39:49.160
The only just law, the only kind of law worth celebrating would be abolishing abortion from
00:39:56.620
And so there could be some disagreement there, definitely, between Christians about, you know,
00:40:02.900
what should be celebrated and what should be advocated for, or at least what is worth
00:40:08.120
our, like, our praise that at least more babies are going to be saved, even through
00:40:17.100
But I do not think believers can, in good faith, disagree about whether or not abortion is wrong
00:40:27.580
If you are a Christian and you don't believe that the law should restrict murder, then I
00:40:34.460
have to wonder if you believe that human beings are made in the image of God.
00:40:37.700
What do you believe about babies inside the womb?
00:40:39.380
Why do you think that murder should be restricted of people outside of the womb and not babies
00:40:44.560
Like, what do you see in Scripture that supports that kind of separation of dignity, that people
00:40:57.240
Like, why do you think the baby in the womb is worth less than the person outside of the
00:41:01.220
And therefore, it should be okay to murder them legally, but it shouldn't be okay to
00:41:05.940
I'm not really sure that we can disagree on that and find unity.
00:41:09.360
That doesn't mean that that person's not a Christian necessarily, because we have all
00:41:13.400
believed wrong things, I think, at some point in our Christian faith.
00:41:24.460
There are plenty of things I believed when I started out as a Christian that are just
00:41:29.440
not true theologically, politically, culturally, and it just took time and the wisdom of other
00:41:34.560
people and reading and thinking to come to what I think are biblical conclusions.
00:41:39.020
There are plenty of things now that I probably think that I don't realize are erroneous that
00:41:42.800
I will grow and read and learn over time, and I will change my mind on those things, hopefully,
00:41:50.480
So that doesn't mean that someone isn't a Christian, but I don't think I can maintain
00:41:56.140
If I were in a church and half of the church believed that abortion should be legal and
00:42:00.180
abortion should be okay and my pastor was split on that, I do not believe that I should
00:42:07.140
And if we as a church disagree on Genesis 1 and a pastor isn't able to say so clearly
00:42:12.020
what Genesis 1 means and the implications of that, yes, even policy-wise, then I'm not
00:42:19.380
I believe that you have a divided flock that is actually being led in chaos.
00:42:26.960
And I think that a pastor should reflect that peace and that clarity.
00:42:30.620
There are some secondary tertiary issues that I think we will disagree on as Christians.
00:42:35.000
I mentioned some of those earlier, and that we can maintain a lot of unity when it comes
00:42:42.460
Like, I think it's good to argue and still maintain unity.
00:42:45.000
But on some things, on those Genesis 1 things, I don't think that we can agree.
00:42:49.520
We're going to have some disunity as a church if we disagree on those very, very fundamental
00:42:57.600
This, of course, is not the first time that Tim Keller has said some of the things that
00:43:02.840
He's talked about Christians and the freedom of conscience.
00:43:08.480
And so he's kind of been big on this, even as he has supported the idea of left-wing racial
00:43:18.260
I think he would probably consider himself a moderate.
00:43:21.000
And, you know, I've heard him say something to this effect.
00:43:23.940
And I've also heard, you know, people like the Anne campaign say, as Christians, we really
00:43:30.040
should have some positions that are left and some positions that are right.
00:43:33.480
We should have some positions that are more in alignment with the Democratic Party and
00:43:38.340
some positions that are more in alignment with the Republican Party.
00:43:42.760
No, I think that the Christian, if we look at the Bible and we apply the Bible, we are
00:43:48.200
going to be far more conservative, at least on the what are considered the culture war issues
00:43:56.640
It's not being nonpartisan as a Christian doesn't mean that you're in the middle.
00:44:01.840
It doesn't mean that you're a liberal on some things.
00:44:03.860
It is going to put you in a place where you are far more conservative than the average Republican
00:44:08.740
That means because you're going to be very clear on what marriage is.
00:44:12.220
You're going to be very clear on what gender is.
00:44:14.180
And look, we've got the biggest conservative network, Fox News, that just hired someone who now
00:44:22.220
And so as a Christian, you're going to be a lot more conservative than Fox News on these
00:44:27.740
You're going to be a lot more conservative when it comes to abortion.
00:44:29.960
You're going to be a lot more conservative when it comes to marriage.
00:44:32.660
Yes, even if we disagree in some ways, in some ways on how this looks politically, when
00:44:38.620
it comes to what we believe, we're going to be far more conservative than either policy.
00:44:42.640
We're probably going to be far more conservative when it comes to even welfare policy, because
00:44:46.440
unlike a lot of people in the most people, if not all in the Democratic Party, and unlike
00:44:51.200
unfortunately, even a lot of people in the Republican Party, or some people in the Republican
00:44:54.960
Party, we believe that work is absolutely necessary to human dignity, that you must have it, that
00:45:01.800
you must incentivize it, that it is absolutely ungodly to create a society in which people
00:45:07.680
are dependent on the government rather than on themselves and their own families and own
00:45:15.320
And so being a Christian and being nonpartisan as a Christian, which I do think is important
00:45:21.480
in a lot of ways, is not going to put you in the middle.
00:45:24.180
There's going to be very few things that you agree with the Democratic Party on.
00:45:27.520
I'm not saying nothing, but there's going to be very few things if you apply scripture
00:45:33.860
There are plenty, however, of Christians who disagree with this.
00:45:37.080
Jackie Hill Perry also sent kind of a vague tweet over the weekend that people were talking
00:45:48.620
about, and this is something that kind of happens a lot.
00:45:52.000
She tweeted in response to President Biden and one of the comments that he made at the
00:46:03.780
White House Correspondents' Dinner, which is just a ridiculous affair where people who are
00:46:13.500
unnecessarily self-important come together to feel even more important and to pat each
00:46:20.520
other on the back for, I'm not really sure what, I don't know, supporting the regime without
00:46:34.180
I actually thought Trevor Noah, he had some good zingers.
00:46:37.520
He kind of picked at both sides, which I think if all reporters and all comedians did
00:46:46.120
that more, picked at both sides, I think we'd actually be a lot healthier as a country.
00:46:50.140
So President Biden said, if you're at home watching this and are wondering how to get
00:46:53.980
vaccinated, just contact your favorite Fox News reporter.
00:46:56.580
They're all here, vaccinated and boosted, you know, basically saying that he is, um,
00:47:01.960
that Fox News is hypocritical for being sane, I guess, I guess he's saying that they say
00:47:08.060
that they're against the vaccine, but they're all vaccinated themselves, which is not true.
00:47:10.880
I know that not all Fox News employees are vaccinated.
00:47:14.440
Tucker Carlson has said that he is not vaccinated, even though the media has tried to say that
00:47:19.400
And so Joe Biden is kind of picking on them, which whatever, good for Joe Biden for being
00:47:25.000
able to finish a complete paragraph without forgetting where he was.
00:47:28.460
Jackie Hope Perry quote tweeted that and said, the shade of it all, laughing face, crying face,
00:47:35.440
And I think at this point, people are used to her kind of showing in vague ways, which
00:47:45.700
I'm not saying that this was some kind of awful, tragic tweet that she sent.
00:47:51.920
But I think people have noticed how slanted these kinds of reactions are when it comes
00:47:57.840
And then she will say that she's not political, that she's apolitical, that both sides are
00:48:02.620
She did the same thing about Ketanji Brown Jackson when she commented on a picture of
00:48:07.100
her daughter looking at Ketanji Brown Jackson and said, mood.
00:48:10.360
And then she got mad at all of these so-called white evangelicals in her DMs who were pointing
00:48:15.040
out that Ketanji Brown Jackson has a really terrible, terrible record, especially from the Christian
00:48:21.040
And she, of course, offended herself and said, you know, it didn't have anything to do with
00:48:24.180
It just had to do with this cool picture of a mother and daughter, which I don't really
00:48:33.880
But if I am going to infer some kind of support for someone, I'm going to make sure that they
00:48:39.460
don't have a background that is absolutely reprehensible, especially from my Christian
00:48:46.120
And so this has kind of been typical for the past few years from Jackie Hill Perry.
00:48:53.240
She, of course, is all on board, at least from what I can see and from what I have heard
00:48:57.660
with progressivism when it comes to the subjects of social and racial justice.
00:49:01.640
Those are the narratives that she is going to perpetuate.
00:49:04.540
She has also criticized the right for saying that they are pro-life but not acting in other
00:49:11.700
kinds of what she would consider pro-life ways, you know, recognizing what she might call something
00:49:23.220
Unfortunately, people send me these screenshots.
00:49:25.420
I can't follow myself because even though I've never had any kind of interaction with Jackie
00:49:29.180
Hill Perry, except for the one time that I asked her to come on my show, she blocked
00:49:32.640
me on all social media, which is just kind of sad.
00:49:36.160
And I do think that she has a lot of wonderful things to say.
00:49:40.060
I really appreciate her testimony, but it's the same kind of deal.
00:49:46.920
Let me put this like vague tweet out there, leave people guessing.
00:49:50.260
Then when people criticize me for it, I'll call them bullies and say that it's really
00:49:54.720
their problem for not understanding exactly what I was saying.
00:50:00.160
Be discerning with all people, of course, including me.
00:50:02.860
Um, but also don't be afraid to ask people to like, what do you mean?
00:50:10.660
Let me tell, let me hear what shapes your perspective.
00:50:13.320
What are you actually trying to say with this particular statement or this particular tweet?
00:50:17.920
I think that's important, especially when it comes to the people who say that they're
00:50:21.160
apolitical, but clearly are leaning progressive.
00:50:28.280
So I just want to react to one more, one more piece of, um, woke Christian commentary that
00:50:35.440
I thought was not surprising at this point because it's coming from Jen Hatmaker.
00:50:39.960
And I think Jen Hatmaker is a completely, in a completely different category, um, than
00:50:49.140
In my opinion, someone who continually in all different ways, just spouts nonsense, including
00:50:58.100
And so she had, um, an interesting clip with some kind of, I don't know, author or something,
00:51:05.580
um, on her show that I want to play you a little bit of.
00:51:09.800
Obviously I don't need everyone to go on a 400 mile walking pilgrimage to the black Madonnas,
00:51:13.800
but I need people to go on a journey for themselves to find their own sacredness that we can all
00:51:19.220
start to actually treat each other as if we're sacred.
00:51:24.620
The tendrils of that effect would change everything.
00:51:31.100
And if we had a world where like all women and all black people were truly sacred,
00:51:38.580
That would dismantle literally every system that harmed us.
00:51:42.640
That would, that would mean the whole earth would flourish.
00:51:47.740
So, um, it always feels so self-defeating that patriarchy and racism and all the isms are
00:51:59.560
so stubborn and want, because it's, it would truly be the liberation of earth.
00:52:04.980
If everybody was valued as divine, it would, it would, it'd be the liberation of the whole
00:52:12.060
earth, even the men, even the white men, like it would be for their flourishing too.
00:52:20.980
Um, so this is a form of, well, it's a form of liberation theology that comes all the way
00:52:28.880
And even before that, now James Cone is someone who is cited very often, even by people who
00:52:33.520
consider themselves conservative, even evangelicals, um, who himself was not a Christian, even though
00:52:41.120
How do I know that it's not just because I disagreed at some points in his theology, but
00:52:44.880
he actually said that he accepted any religion as legitimate, who believes in liberation.
00:52:53.280
He didn't believe in the exclusivity of Christianity.
00:52:55.960
He didn't believe that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life.
00:52:58.140
He believed in Christianity as a vehicle for liberation from political and earthly oppression
00:53:07.260
He was not really interested in like the salvation and the regeneration of someone's heart.
00:53:11.860
And that is why he would accept, you know, Malcolm X's faith or, um, any other kind of
00:53:17.720
racial activist faith, as long as he agreed with them politically about the so-called liberation
00:53:25.060
And it always had to do with the growth of the government, um, to accomplish their purposes.
00:53:30.400
And so that's part of what they're talking about here.
00:53:32.060
Part of also of what they're talking about is some kind of new age self goddess stuff in
00:53:41.800
That's different than made in the image of a God.
00:53:50.940
We are made in his image and we have, um, that spark and that reflection, which does give
00:53:56.720
us amazing value far beyond any plant or animal or any other organism on earth.
00:54:08.620
That is different because we are not worthy of worship ourselves.
00:54:14.280
And that is, um, a very typical new age idea that if we all just worshiped ourselves and
00:54:20.920
each other as a part of the divine, whatever, again, defining our terms, what does that even
00:54:26.540
Then we would all be liberated from these so-called systems that are apparently all weighing us
00:54:33.300
Now, maybe you go listen to that episode with Jen Hatmaker.
00:54:43.780
We didn't, we didn't have time to play the whole thing.
00:54:45.900
You should go listen to it or watch it if you want to.
00:54:50.520
This kind of theology is so intangible and is so, um, I don't even want to say academic
00:54:57.900
because that almost has like positive connotations, but is so ethereal and beyond the reach or the
00:55:07.160
comprehension of like any kind of common sense or any kind of basic understanding that human
00:55:17.620
Because if you continue to say that what I believe or really what's going to liberate
00:55:25.120
the world and what is going to heal us of all this earthly oppression is so beyond reach
00:55:32.340
You really need me, this expert, this very smart person, this person that has special
00:55:37.320
access to this liberating knowledge, um, in order to attain it.
00:55:41.340
Well, then that person stays in a position of power.
00:55:43.600
That person continues to get money, continues to get attention.
00:55:46.500
You continue to get people to need you because you have access to this special power of the
00:55:54.100
Those people don't really want to relieve the earth of any kind of oppression, um, because
00:56:01.720
I mean, that's true of race hustlers and all of this.
00:56:04.420
Um, they'd be out of the job if oppression was actually relieved.
00:56:08.380
And of course, we know that they don't actually care about real oppression because the only
00:56:11.800
true reliever of oppression is the gospel, is through the changing of hearts, which does,
00:56:17.820
yes, affect our politics, but it's not primarily political.
00:56:22.180
And that's kind of, I guess, the theme of this episode.
00:56:24.480
It's just a bad understanding of how the Bible applies to politics in a bunch of different ways.