Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 609 ｜ Tim Keller’s Terrible Abortion Take

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:01.840 Happy Monday.

00:00:03.380 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:06.460 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for a discount.

00:00:09.380 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:21.000 Okay, y'all, I hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

00:00:25.320 I hope that you are starting to ring in the summer wherever you are,

00:00:28.320 or if you're up north, maybe you're just now ringing in the spring,

00:00:32.620 which is always exciting when things get a little bit warmer.

00:00:35.720 We celebrated a one-year-old birthday party in my family this weekend.

00:00:40.860 I can't believe it's been one year since I gave birth to my last child.

00:00:44.920 It's just crazy.

00:00:46.080 The time really does go by so quickly, and I know that's cliche.

00:00:50.620 Everyone tells you that, but it's true. 1.00

00:00:53.040 It's true.

00:00:53.580 And so we made some precious memories this weekend,

00:00:56.720 and what else was I going to say?

00:01:01.020 Oh yeah, I was also going to tell you guys that I've kind of failed a little bit

00:01:04.920 on my whole healthy eating, working out endeavor that I committed to do with you

00:01:10.560 for 30 days a couple weeks ago.

00:01:13.560 Here's what happened.

00:01:14.580 I got a stomach bug, and that kind of derailed me because when you're recovering from a stomach

00:01:22.480 bug, you don't really want to eat just meat and vegetables.

00:01:25.400 You really need some carbs to refuel yourself, and that's what I did, and that kind of just

00:01:30.600 got me off track, and I also didn't want to work out.

00:01:33.040 I didn't want to expend that kind of energy when I was recovering from a stomach bug,

00:01:36.880 and then I was traveling, and so I've gotten off rails, but I'm back on, baby.

00:01:41.820 We're back on today, so if you've stayed committed for the past couple of weeks, good job.

00:01:47.560 I was not right there with you.

00:01:49.160 I was at first, then some things happened, but now I'm back on track.

00:01:52.700 So for the month of May, we're getting on track.

00:01:55.080 We're working out for at least 10 minutes every day, and we're going to cut out the junk food.

00:01:59.080 That's my commitment, and it's not about, I saw some comments when I was talking about

00:02:03.680 this a couple of weeks ago, resisting the Easter candy.

00:02:06.560 It's not about just like losing weight or being super strict about everything you eat.

00:02:12.540 It's not about that.

00:02:13.820 It is about discipline.

00:02:14.980 That's something I need in this area of my life, and so I am trying to re-implement that.

00:02:20.260 So if you want to start today or if you want to restart today, here we are.

00:02:24.360 We're going to restart.

00:02:25.460 All right.

00:02:26.220 Just wanted to get some personal stuff at the beginning before we get into our more serious

00:02:32.700 episode.

00:02:33.080 It's going to be a fun episode, but it's also going to be serious because we're talking

00:02:37.520 about Tim Keller and asking the question, is Tim Keller okay?

00:02:43.860 Is Tim Keller okay?

00:02:45.160 I'm not sure.

00:02:46.640 Based on this Twitter thread that he tweeted last week and then doubled down on and then

00:02:51.440 tripled down on over the weekend, we are going to try to answer this question.

00:02:55.700 Is Tim Keller, who I think is a brilliant theologian in a lot of ways, is he okay?

00:03:01.760 He tweeted this thread talking about his views on abortion and really tried to strike this,

00:03:10.480 what he would probably call a balance, what I would call moral relativism and a false equivalency

00:03:16.940 between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to abortion.

00:03:20.320 His argument was so terrible and that breaks my heart and breaks my brain as someone who

00:03:27.480 knows that Tim Keller is a very smart person.

00:03:30.920 Let me back up a little bit before we go through this thread and before I respond to this thread,

00:03:36.920 let me say that I really appreciate Tim Keller in a lot of ways.

00:03:41.540 Now, a lot of you out there, I know I can see the comments on YouTube now.

00:03:45.340 You're going to be saying, oh, Tim Keller, he has been a wolf in sheep's clothing for a long time.

00:03:50.240 He's been a communist Marxist for a long time.

00:03:52.780 We should never be reading Tim Keller.

00:03:54.320 We should have never read Tim Keller.

00:03:56.260 He is a false teacher.

00:03:57.500 He has nothing good to contribute to the Christian conversation.

00:03:59.760 There are definitely going to be people listening and watching you think that.

00:04:02.920 There's also going to be people listening and watching who are thinking, what?

00:04:06.820 Tim Keller is completely untouchable.

00:04:08.480 He is the modern day C.S. Lewis.

00:04:11.160 Maybe that's what you're thinking or you're thinking he is the best contribution to modern

00:04:16.200 Christianity that exists.

00:04:18.520 And there's nothing that he's ever said is wrong.

00:04:21.180 And if Tim Keller says it, then it must be right because he is so perfectly wise.

00:04:27.640 So I land in between, in between there.

00:04:31.700 I probably am closer to the latter description, actually,

00:04:35.380 because I have probably read more books from Tim Keller than I have from any other single author.

00:04:45.460 He has helped me a lot from the time that I really became a Christian in high school

00:04:50.480 to up until, I would say, a couple years ago.

00:04:54.980 His books, let's see, The Reason for God, Making Sense of God, The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness.

00:05:04.420 The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness was actually one inspiration for the book that I wrote a couple

00:05:09.020 years ago, You're Not Enough and That's Okay.

00:05:11.820 Every Good, Endeavor, Prodigal God.

00:05:15.680 I could go on.

00:05:16.520 And I'm sure that there are other books, there are, there are many other books that he's

00:05:20.020 written that I've read that I just can't think of.

00:05:21.860 Oh, The Meaning of Marriage was very instrumental for us.

00:05:24.920 That's what we read, my husband and I read when we were engaged.

00:05:28.280 And so I am not some Tim Keller hater.

00:05:31.820 I do think he's brilliant.

00:05:33.080 I do think he is really wise that he has had incredible contributions to the faith.

00:05:38.680 Just in my own thinking, in my apologetics, in my basic understanding of the Bible, I

00:05:44.120 will still recommend to you The Reason for God and Meaning of Marriage and Every Good

00:05:47.960 Endeavor.

00:05:48.700 Those are probably the three that I would recommend most.

00:05:52.220 I would still.

00:05:53.160 But over the past couple years, I've been really disappointed in what I see as not just

00:05:59.920 incorrect opinions about politics.

00:06:02.020 Yes, we can be free as Christians to disagree about some tertiary or even secondary things

00:06:07.780 when it comes to how we see these cultural and political issues.

00:06:12.360 But really, it seems to me a lack of critical thinking from Tim Keller when it comes to some

00:06:17.740 of these issues like abortion and abortion policy.

00:06:20.660 That's troubling to me because I know that he doesn't lack the capacity to think hard about

00:06:27.320 things and to think thoroughly about things.

00:06:29.320 And yet this tweet that we're about or this tweet thread that we're about to get into

00:06:33.040 shows exactly that or worse, it shows that he has thought about it and he doesn't want

00:06:39.920 to share his opinions publicly because he knows that conservatives will pounce on the fact

00:06:45.280 that he's probably a progressive when it comes to things like abortion.

00:06:50.440 All right, let's talk about our friend Tim Keller.

00:06:56.340 So he tweeted a few days ago, churches must not maintain unity at the expense of the gospel.

00:07:05.140 Churches should not destroy unity or fellowship over political differences.

00:07:10.880 So I always find that vague tweets like this aren't particularly helpful because they leave

00:07:16.380 the reader wondering, well, what are you talking about?

00:07:19.020 What kind of political differences?

00:07:21.060 Let's define our terms, which we have learned, especially over the past few years, how important

00:07:26.280 defining your terms is because as Christians or just as people in general, when one person

00:07:32.520 uses the word equity, they could mean something totally different than what someone on the

00:07:36.800 other side of the aisle means when they say equity or equality or justice or love or empathy.

00:07:44.980 And so it's always really important to define our terms.

00:07:47.700 And as Christians, we always ask the question, where are you getting that definition from?

00:07:52.640 Are you getting the definition of, for example, love from the Bible, or are you getting the

00:07:57.840 definition of love from the world?

00:07:59.720 If your definition of love means unconditional tolerance of someone's identity, self-stated

00:08:07.700 identity or someone's sin, well, then that's not biblical love because God is love and he is

00:08:14.640 also holy and intolerant of sin.

00:08:16.840 So anything that God says is wrong, we from love would also say is wrong.

00:08:22.040 And so as Christians, we not only define our terms, we use our critical thinking skills

00:08:26.340 to do that, to try to get on the same page as someone, but we also make sure that we

00:08:30.160 are going to scripture to define the terms that we're using.

00:08:33.200 So when Tim Keller says that we should not destroy unity or fellowship over political differences,

00:08:39.200 I tend to agree.

00:08:41.000 But it depends on what you mean by political differences.

00:08:45.540 If what you mean by political differences is that maybe we disagree on some welfare policy,

00:08:50.580 we disagree on how exactly to fix the immigration issue in our country or what kind of or whether

00:08:58.320 or not bail reform is a good change for so-called criminal justice or dealing with crime and

00:09:09.540 incarceration.

00:09:10.780 Yeah, those are some political differences that should not divide us as a church, even though

00:09:16.420 I might think that you are completely wrong on all of those things and we can have strong

00:09:21.180 opinions on them.

00:09:21.940 We can try to change each other's mind.

00:09:23.520 But at the end of the day, we don't have to leave the church over those things.

00:09:27.760 The Bible does, I think, speak to those issues, but perhaps not explicitly and in a way that

00:09:35.420 indicates someone's salvation, if that makes sense.

00:09:39.600 However, if by political differences, you are talking about something like abortion, you're

00:09:45.960 talking about something like, can a man change into a woman and become a woman and then be

00:09:52.720 accepted by people as a woman?

00:09:55.940 If you're talking about sexuality and the definition of marriage, if that's what you mean by political

00:10:01.880 differences, then yes, those things can and actually should divide a church.

00:10:07.180 Why?

00:10:08.100 Because for the Christian, those are not political differences.

00:10:12.360 Those are theological differences, deep foundational theological differences.

00:10:16.980 They actually go all the way back to Genesis 1.

00:10:19.940 And if you believe, for example, that abortion is okay, that it's something, maybe you think

00:10:26.960 of it as a necessary evil that you just have to keep legal, or maybe you think that it's

00:10:31.720 something that's fine, because the baby inside the womb is a potential human, as that side

00:10:38.060 says, which is so unscientific and ridiculous.

00:10:40.660 And you just think it's a matter of bodily autonomy, that a woman should be able to make 0.96

00:10:45.320 that choice.

00:10:45.820 Or if you believe that a man can become a woman, or that gender fluid or non-binary is a real

00:10:54.300 thing, or that a man should be able to, or that it's perfectly acceptable and not sinful

00:10:59.960 at all for a man to be able to marry another man, well, that goes back to what you actually

00:11:06.360 think about Genesis 1.1.

00:11:09.120 That goes back to whether you think God created the heavens and the earth.

00:11:12.520 If you believe that God created the heavens and the earth, which is the most controversial

00:11:16.100 statement in the entire Bible, then you also believe that God is the authority over

00:11:20.960 the heavens and the earth, and you define things as he defines them.

00:11:25.640 And God defines us as made in his image.

00:11:28.480 That covers whether or not abortion is wrong.

00:11:30.620 It is.

00:11:31.200 We're made from conception in his image.

00:11:34.240 He defines us male and female.

00:11:35.840 That covers the gender thing. 0.93

00:11:37.300 And then he defines marriage.

00:11:38.580 It's between one man and one woman.

00:11:40.960 So it really all goes back to Genesis 1.

00:11:43.500 Yes, those things have become political and cultural issues, but for the Christian, they're

00:11:48.280 pre-political.

00:11:49.280 They're pre-cultural.

00:11:50.220 They're pre-civilizational.

00:11:52.580 They are fundamentally theological, and they are theologically fundamental.

00:11:58.300 So if as a church you find yourself disagreeing on those things, really what it means to be

00:12:02.940 human and what it means to be made by God and what it means to submit to God's authority,

00:12:07.780 then yes, that should divide the church.

00:12:11.000 Now, Tim Keller then expounds upon it in a way that I think always comes across as very

00:12:15.580 exasperated.

00:12:16.460 So you see this a lot from—and I would classify Tim Keller in a lot of ways as woke, so I'm

00:12:23.120 just going to say that.

00:12:24.600 That you see this a lot from woke kind of social justice types.

00:12:29.240 And by the way, they always claim to be politically neutral, and they never actually are.

00:12:34.420 They just think that their progressive perspective on things is not political.

00:12:38.700 So he throws this vague thing out here.

00:12:43.220 This is what you see from people like him.

00:12:45.720 They throw a vague thing out there, and then they're so mad when the rubes don't understand 0.97

00:12:50.580 and ask for clarity and ask to define terms as if you should just read Tim Keller's brilliant

00:12:55.420 mind and know exactly what he's talking about.

00:12:57.420 So he does this thread, expounding upon this.

00:13:00.620 He says,

00:13:01.000 I recently wrote about how churches should not destroy unity or fellowship over political

00:13:04.880 differences.

00:13:05.480 The replies show that many American evangelicals have no coherent understanding of how to relate

00:13:10.060 to the Bible and politics.

00:13:11.700 Here's the original tweet, and then he quote tweets the tweet that I read to you.

00:13:14.780 So you see, it's your fault.

00:13:16.840 It's not that he sent out a vague tweet without any explanation at first of what the heck he was

00:13:20.820 talking about, what political differences he was referring to.

00:13:24.740 It's your fault.

00:13:26.660 It's the evangelical American's fault that you don't have any understanding. 0.98

00:13:30.440 So he says, here are two biblical moral norms.

00:13:33.020 One, it is a sin to worship idols or any other, or any God other than the true God.

00:13:39.300 True.

00:13:40.340 And two, do not murder.

00:13:41.540 If you ask evangelicals if we should be forbidden by law to worship any other God than the God

00:13:47.520 of the Bible, they'd say no.

00:13:48.820 We allow that terrible sin to be legal, but if you ask them if Americans can be forbidden 1.00

00:13:53.500 by law to abort a baby, they'd say yes. 0.57

00:13:56.300 Now, why make the first sin legal and never talk about it, and the second sin illegal at

00:14:02.320 a main moral political talking point?

00:14:05.080 At the very least, it shows a lack of knowing how to apply the Bible to politics.

00:14:09.340 Since we can't simply say if the Bible says it's sin, it should be illegal, how do we choose

00:14:14.660 which morals to politically champion?

00:14:16.520 Please don't say, I just want to see the Ten Commandments made law in society that's too

00:14:21.420 simplistic, and we don't do this already.

00:14:23.980 The Bible tells us that idolatry, abortion, and ignoring the poor are all grievous sins,

00:14:28.580 but it doesn't tell us exactly how we are to apply these norms to a pluralistic society.

00:14:35.540 We are to help the poor, but the Bible doesn't tell us which political strategy, high taxes

00:14:39.760 and government services versus low taxes and private charity to use.

00:14:42.420 The Bible binds my conscience to love the immigrant, but it doesn't tell me how many legal immigrants

00:14:46.340 to admit to the U.S. every year.

00:14:48.060 I know abortion is a sin, but the Bible doesn't tell me the best political policy to decrease 0.99

00:14:53.440 or end abortion in this country, nor which political or legal policies are most effective

00:14:59.800 to that end.

00:15:00.940 The current political parties will say that their policy most aligns morally with the Bible,

00:15:04.980 but we are allowed to debate that.

00:15:06.420 And so our churches should not have disunity over debatable political differences.

00:15:09.540 It is also why I've never publicly or privately told Christians who they should vote for.

00:15:15.840 I have also never told anyone they should vote for Democrat or Republican, depending on

00:15:20.160 the policy.

00:15:20.680 We can more or less find alignment with biblical morals.

00:15:22.980 I believe all Christians should be active in politics, but it is unwise to identify Christianity 1.00

00:15:26.440 with any particular party.

00:15:28.540 Sigh.

00:15:29.480 Sigh.

00:15:30.160 Once again, the exasperation with you idiot plebeians. 1.00

00:15:34.100 People are focusing on the example abortion is physical harm and not the principle.

00:15:38.060 You can do the same object lesson about gay marriage. 0.58

00:15:40.880 Why codify that moral in law and not others?

00:15:47.080 All right, let me respond to a little bit of this.

00:15:50.980 It's a long, it's a long thread.

00:15:52.960 And I think what we find is that he has actually thought about it, but I still think that he

00:15:57.440 is thinking about it wrongly.

00:15:58.720 I still think that this shows very superficial thinking about what a political difference

00:16:03.960 is versus what a theological difference is.

00:16:06.380 It also, to me, shows a misunderstanding of what the parties actually represent.

00:16:11.040 Like, what is the stance that they actually represent?

00:16:13.700 We do live in a pluralistic society.

00:16:15.900 We have a First Amendment.

00:16:17.020 So the state is not going to establish a religion.

00:16:19.320 So that is why we do not prohibit idolatry in this country.

00:16:25.320 That is why we do allow people to worship whatever god they want to worship.

00:16:30.020 We do, however, believe in outlawing murder because we don't believe in anarchy.

00:16:37.200 So, of course, there was some thought by the founders when they enshrined our Bill of Rights

00:16:41.740 into thinking what is going to be made illegal and what is not.

00:16:44.920 When they said in the Declaration of Independence that we are entitled to life, liberty, and the

00:16:51.620 pursuit of happiness.

00:16:52.860 What we see there, in principle, is that the most fundamental, the most basic responsibility of

00:16:59.120 even the smallest and most limited government is to protect the taking of innocent life.

00:17:04.980 And so it's not really hard to understand, okay, well, why don't we force people to only worship 0.96

00:17:11.840 the god of the Bible and not other gods, but then we don't apply the same principle to murder?

00:17:21.420 Because we don't live in a theocracy, but we also don't live in anarchy.

00:17:28.400 And so because of that, we believe that the government has a responsibility to protecting

00:17:32.660 the most vulnerable.

00:17:35.680 Now, of course, we look forward to the day when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that

00:17:41.760 Jesus Christ is Lord and that everyone will worship, that we all will worship the one true God.

00:17:49.920 And so we do, we absolutely do look forward to that day.

00:17:55.520 And that is the ideal.

00:17:57.760 But because we do live in a non-theocracy, because we do live in a pluralistic society,

00:18:03.160 we do have to decide how we care for the most vulnerable while also allowing the freedom of religion.

00:18:11.760 And so it's not really that complicated or that complex about why we should restrict murder the

00:18:18.400 way that we should and why we don't ban idolatry.

00:18:21.860 It's really not that complicated.

00:18:23.620 If you don't believe that the government should restrict murder, then you are pro-anarchy.

00:18:29.120 Christians understand that not every sin is going to be forbidden by law.

00:18:34.120 I don't think that's the argument that pro-lifers make.

00:18:37.000 I think that some sins should, obviously, like murder, like theft.

00:18:41.580 There are plenty of things that were sins first that are outlawed by law, and that's a good thing.

00:18:46.260 I just, I happen to believe that murder, including murder of a child inside the womb, should be outlawed.

00:18:52.740 But we understand not every single sin that the Bible calls sin is going to be outlawed by the state.

00:18:59.380 And we are okay with that.

00:19:00.660 The argument is not for pro-lifers that every single thing that the Bible calls sin is going

00:19:06.040 to be or even should be a matter of state restriction.

00:19:11.220 The argument is that this should.

00:19:13.760 This should.

00:19:14.840 Like abortion should be a matter of state protection and state restriction. 0.57

00:19:19.280 The argument isn't that everything should.

00:19:21.840 The argument is that this should.

00:19:23.440 Because we are talking, again, about the most fundamental and basic responsibility of the

00:19:28.360 government, which is to protect the right of an innocent person not to be murdered.

00:19:33.200 It's very simple.

00:19:35.120 I'm going to get into what I think is his gross misunderstanding of the positions of the

00:19:40.660 political parties on abortion in just one second.

00:19:43.060 All right, so Tim Keller says that we should debate.

00:19:50.480 We are debating between Republicans and Democrats how best to end abortion or how best to decrease 0.76

00:19:55.580 abortion.

00:19:56.140 He says that the Bible doesn't really talk about what is the policy to decrease or end abortion.

00:20:02.160 First of all, the Bible actually does speak to, like, if you're going to use that argument,

00:20:06.040 the Bible actually does say the best policy for murder, the best punishment for murder.

00:20:10.960 Here, Genesis 9-6 tells us this, before the creation of Israel, before civilization, before

00:20:16.800 he gives the law to Israel, and that is the death penalty. 0.87

00:20:19.700 So you can't say that the Bible doesn't speak to it.

00:20:21.940 You could say that you don't believe that that applies to our society today because of

00:20:26.580 kind of what we were talking about before.

00:20:28.080 We don't live in a theocracy.

00:20:29.300 You can make your argument for that.

00:20:30.640 But you can't say the Bible doesn't speak to it.

00:20:32.540 The Bible actually does speak exactly to the punishment that God sees fit for murder,

00:20:38.540 and that is the death penalty.

00:20:39.640 We've talked about this many times before.

00:20:42.340 Genesis 9-6, because it precedes and transcends the creation of Israel and all civilization,

00:20:48.780 it is still applicable even, well, I believe it's still applicable as a possible, as a just

00:20:57.100 punishment for murder, whether you live in Israel or not.

00:21:00.940 It's because the reason that God gives for the death penalty, not just for suggesting

00:21:05.040 it, for demanding the death penalty in the case of murder, is because we are made in 0.83

00:21:11.420 His image.

00:21:12.360 And we are still made in His image.

00:21:13.960 He doesn't say that, you know, I demand the death penalty in this time, in this place,

00:21:18.200 in this particular cultural moment.

00:21:19.680 He says, I demand the death penalty for murder because man is made in my image.

00:21:26.300 So because He values human life so much, because He loves us so much, because we are of incredible

00:21:35.380 worth and value as people made in His image, the only punishment severe enough to make a

00:21:44.820 payment for murder is the death penalty.

00:21:47.900 That's what Genesis 9-6 tells us.

00:21:49.840 And so, again, you can make your argument that that shouldn't apply here in America,

00:21:53.640 that we don't have the right system for that, that you don't want that to apply for abortion

00:21:56.860 here in the United States for whatever your reason is.

00:22:00.500 But that's not what Tim Keller says.

00:22:02.040 He says the Bible doesn't speak to the particular policy of how we should deal with abortion.

00:22:06.680 And that's not true.

00:22:07.840 That's simply not true.

00:22:09.140 And here's how I know that he doesn't understand the debate, really, about abortion and

00:22:14.700 abortion policy in the United States.

00:22:16.960 He says that we don't know what particular policy, like the Bible doesn't tell us the

00:22:24.360 best political policy to decrease or end abortion in this country.

00:22:29.760 See, this is an argument that I hear from the left a lot.

00:22:33.220 And again, this kind of shows his particular bias, whether he realizes it or not, that restricting

00:22:41.100 abortion isn't going to decrease abortion. 1.00

00:22:43.480 Restricting abortion is just going to make abortion more dangerous.

00:22:47.400 People are still going, women are still going to be getting abortion at the same rate.

00:22:50.780 They're just going to travel to a different state or they're going to try to do like some

00:22:55.260 sort of self-managed abortion. 1.00

00:22:57.880 And so don't restrict abortion.

00:22:59.960 Just take care of women and provide them with all this free stuff. 1.00

00:23:04.680 And then they won't get abortions. 1.00

00:23:06.460 And that will decrease abortion. 1.00

00:23:07.800 And then, as we've debunked many times before, they'll show these erroneous charts that are

00:23:13.260 the perfect, perfect example of the correlation causation fallacy.

00:23:18.840 And they'll show, look, when Democrats are president, the abortion rate goes down.

00:23:23.280 But as even the Guttmacher Institute will tell you, which is a pro-abortion research institute,

00:23:28.540 there really is no causal relationship between who the president is, Republican or Democrat,

00:23:34.560 and the abortion rate.

00:23:36.700 You have to look at the policies passed by state legislatures.

00:23:40.600 For example, when Obama was president, you saw the abortion rate lower than when some

00:23:46.600 other people were president, including Republican presidents.

00:23:49.780 And people conclude, oh, because Obama was president, women were having fewer abortions 0.99

00:23:53.700 because they had more resources.

00:23:54.940 But that's not true.

00:23:56.300 You know who dominated state legislatures who were in charge of abortion policy while Obama

00:24:01.260 was president, Republicans, Republicans passed more pro-life legislation when Obama was president

00:24:07.900 during his eight years than in any other time in history.

00:24:12.020 And Republicans dominated more state legislatures when Obama was president than I think any other

00:24:16.760 time since FDR.

00:24:18.200 And so if you want to try to say that there is a correlation between who is in power or causal

00:24:24.240 relationship between who is in power and the abortion rate, then you would have to look

00:24:28.380 at not who's president, but who is running the state legislatures.

00:24:31.640 Those are the people who are making the laws that actually impact abortion.

00:24:36.620 So that chart has always been dumb, and it's never actually corresponded to any kind of good

00:24:42.580 argument for Democrat policies.

00:24:44.560 There's no evidence whatsoever that Democrat policies are decreasing abortion.

00:24:49.220 And yet you will continue to hear that from the left, that it should be about decreasing

00:24:52.880 abortion.

00:24:53.860 Look, that is one goal of the pro-life movement, of the anti-abortion movement.

00:24:57.500 I'm fine with that too.

00:24:58.660 Pro-life is kind of, that term has been bastardized to include too many things, have nothing to

00:25:02.900 do with abortion. 0.56

00:25:03.720 The point of the anti-abortion movement is not just to decrease abortion, although I

00:25:08.800 think that that's a good goal.

00:25:10.600 We are committed to loving and taking care of women and their children and families, fathers

00:25:16.020 and their children before, during and after pregnancy.

00:25:21.960 Like that is the majority of anti-abortion work.

00:25:24.480 That whole, you're only pro-birth myth is just that.

00:25:28.980 It is a myth.

00:25:29.820 We dedicate so much of our time, our money, our energy into helping women after they give

00:25:36.560 birth, making sure that they are well taken care of.

00:25:39.660 And so we are all on board with decreasing abortions, decreasing the felt need.

00:25:46.380 I don't believe that there's a need, but a felt need for abortion, decreasing that desperation,

00:25:50.380 decreasing the loneliness and the destitution that might lead someone to have an abortion

00:25:55.380 to changing people's hearts so that they don't think that they need to sacrifice their child

00:26:00.160 for something superficial like a career or for travel or for just like autonomy and independence

00:26:06.180 of we are committed to all that.

00:26:07.800 But that is not what changing the law is primarily about.

00:26:11.200 Changing the law when it comes to abortion is recognizing the child's humanity, recognizing

00:26:19.540 that that life inside the womb is a human being and therefore they are entitled to human

00:26:23.740 rights.

00:26:25.200 They're a human being and therefore they are entitled to human rights, the most fundamental

00:26:30.260 being the right to not be murdered.

00:26:33.220 So changing the law is about recognizing the child in the womb as a human and as someone

00:26:42.040 who is entitled to the right to life.

00:26:45.200 It is not just about, even if abortion did not decrease at all because of the change in

00:26:49.240 the law, it would still be right to change the law because you recognize a child's right

00:26:55.740 to life.

00:26:56.020 Think about if we decided to not outlaw anything unless there was data proving that there's

00:27:03.220 that it decreased that thing.

00:27:05.260 I mean, you would you could possibly live in anarchy because there's all different kinds

00:27:09.980 of ways that you could use convoluted data to justify making something legal.

00:27:15.180 The law is definitely a deterrent, I think, including in abortion.

00:27:19.680 But say you couldn't make that argument at all.

00:27:22.320 Say that there was no proof that outlawing murder of someone outside of the womb decreased

00:27:28.780 the murder rate.

00:27:30.080 You could actually possibly prove that.

00:27:33.720 Especially right now.

00:27:35.320 But actually, no, you probably couldn't because I think the reason that murder rates are up

00:27:38.680 is because of bail reform and criminal justice reform and the lack of applying the law and

00:27:44.300 doling out just punishments.

00:27:46.280 And so anyway, but if you could make the argument, if you could make the argument that outlawing

00:27:52.360 murder of people outside of the womb doesn't actually decrease the number of murders, is that

00:27:57.280 the argument for not outlawing it?

00:27:59.380 Is that the argument for not putting people in jail?

00:28:02.840 No, of course not, because that's not the only reason.

00:28:06.960 Decreasing something is not the only reason that you make it illegal.

00:28:09.920 You make it illegal because it's the right thing to do, because it's not just about punishing

00:28:13.660 the criminal.

00:28:14.640 It's not just about punishing the person who perpetrated the crime.

00:28:17.880 It is about recognizing the legal right of the victim, the legal right of someone to not

00:28:23.800 be murdered, the legal right of someone to not be stolen from, the legal right of someone

00:28:27.640 not to be assaulted.

00:28:29.860 That is also what the law is about.

00:28:32.640 And Tim Keller, in all of his thoughtfulness, in all of his brilliance, doesn't seem to understand

00:28:36.640 that.

00:28:36.980 He thinks we're having a debate about how to decrease abortion.

00:28:39.980 That is not primarily the goal of the anti-abortion movement.

00:28:43.180 And newsflash, Tim Keller.

00:28:44.540 Here's the important part.

00:28:45.700 Now, no one on the Democratic side is talking about how to decrease abortion, okay?

00:28:53.200 This is not a debate in the United States, between the right and the left, about how to

00:28:57.260 decrease abortion.

00:28:58.180 The debate is about whether or not abortion is evil.

00:29:01.540 The left does not believe that abortion is something that needs to be decreased.

00:29:05.140 I'm sure there are some well-meaning people who profess to be Christians and Democrats who

00:29:09.780 would admit in hushed tones that abortion is something that is bad, that we shouldn't

00:29:15.680 celebrate, at least.

00:29:16.800 They might say, oh, no one is pro-abortion.

00:29:19.680 Oh, yes, they are.

00:29:20.860 Have you spent a little time on the interwebs, my friend?

00:29:24.420 Have you spent any time on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter?

00:29:28.540 There are thousands, if not millions, of people who identify as Democrats, certainly who identify

00:29:35.080 as people on the left, who are pro-abortion.

00:29:39.700 Shout Your Abortion, an organization that was touted by Oprah that I wrote about in my book,

00:29:45.680 they are absolutely committed to, quote, destigmatizing abortion.

00:29:52.060 And there is an entire movement, a large movement of people on the left.

00:29:55.760 I mean, you can read in the New Yorker, which is a very mainstream left-wing outlet, an article

00:30:01.500 titled, Abortion is a Moral Good.

00:30:04.160 You will not get a Democrat to say, or any kind of mainstream left-wing journalist, you

00:30:10.320 will not be able to get them to say that we should decrease abortion.

00:30:13.040 You will not be able to get them to say that abortion is not a good thing.

00:30:16.900 They celebrate abortion. 0.94

00:30:18.240 Abortion is a sacrament to the Democratic Party.

00:30:21.420 You have to be pro-abortion, basically without limits, in order to run and to win any statewide 0.92

00:30:29.840 office as a Democrat today.

00:30:31.920 There is no chance in heck that a Democrat would be able to run for senator, be able to

00:30:38.700 run for president, certainly no nationwide office.

00:30:44.220 You wouldn't be able to run for anything statewide or nationwide as a Democrat if you are anti-abortion

00:30:52.140 in any way, even just personally anti-abortion.

00:30:54.860 You wouldn't be able to do it.

00:30:56.260 You have to be pro-choice, pro-abortion through all nine months of pregnancy in order to be 0.70

00:31:04.220 an accepted Democrat.

00:31:05.940 Just a few years ago, the head of the DNC was saying there is no place for a pro-life

00:31:10.140 Democrat in the party.

00:31:11.760 That's who they are.

00:31:13.220 Do you don't see the legislation that's coming out of Maryland, that's coming out of New

00:31:16.620 Jersey, that's coming out of Colorado and California that is allowing the decriminalization

00:31:21.700 of perinatal deaths of infants, perinatal is up to 28 days after birth.

00:31:29.460 And they are taking away the criminalization of a baby's death at any point in that perinatal

00:31:37.840 period due to neglect.

00:31:40.960 So we're talking about not just abortion, which I think is a form of infanticide, but a post-birth

00:31:46.940 infanticide too.

00:31:47.980 And Tim Keller, you think the debate is actually between whether Republican policies or Democrat

00:31:55.320 policies decrease abortion?

00:31:56.820 That is not the argument that's being had.

00:31:59.260 That's not the debate.

00:32:00.480 That's not the topic of discussion.

00:32:03.220 Tim Keller is the perfect example of someone who does not understand what time it is, who

00:32:08.380 does not understand the battle that is being waged, which I agree is not primarily between

00:32:13.760 Republicans or Democrats, is not primarily between the right and the left.

00:32:17.300 There are a lot of lost people on the right.

00:32:19.600 There are a lot of immoral people on the right.

00:32:21.960 It is ultimately always for the Christian, no matter where you live, no matter what time 1.00

00:32:26.060 in history that you're in, between good and evil, darkness and light.

00:32:29.740 That is absolutely true.

00:32:30.940 And I am not saying that that perfectly falls along left and right lines.

00:32:35.600 I'm not.

00:32:36.200 Because like I said, there's a lot of darkness on the right too.

00:32:39.200 But leftism is exclusively dark.

00:32:42.060 Okay?

00:32:42.480 They're exclusively dark.

00:32:43.680 Everything that they promote, personally and policy-wise, is wicked.

00:32:48.180 Whether it's how they want to treat the poor through programs that say that they care for

00:32:54.160 the least of these, but actually just chain people to government dependence, take away

00:33:00.100 people's dignity by disincentivizing work.

00:33:02.720 Whether it is the catastrophic immigration policy that is actually incentivizing the deadly track 0.98

00:33:09.840 of migrants to our border, and then they're infiltrating the United States in a way that 0.98

00:33:14.760 harms both immigrants and citizens.

00:33:18.020 Whether it's their pro-abortion policy, in which they believe that abortion should be allowed 0.87

00:33:23.940 through nine months, should be subsidized, should be celebrated, should be destigmatized.

00:33:30.420 Whether it is the gender indoctrination and the body mutilation that they are promoting 0.95

00:33:37.720 toward children.

00:33:39.620 It doesn't matter what policy or what issue you look at when it comes to the left.

00:33:44.540 It is marked by this wicked, this dark ideology of progressivism.

00:33:51.700 That doesn't mean that everyone who is on the left is a bad person.

00:33:57.100 I don't believe that.

00:33:58.080 I think that they're misled in a lot of ways.

00:34:00.140 That doesn't mean that everyone on the left, that their intentions are wrong, even though

00:34:03.480 I think that they are wrong in general.

00:34:05.920 It doesn't mean that they have a bad heart.

00:34:09.640 Although I do think that their heart is misleading them.

00:34:14.640 I'm not trying to characterize everyone on the left as lost or bad, but the ideology that

00:34:20.560 drives that side is destructive and deadly.

00:34:22.560 That's the debate that we're having.

00:34:25.440 And that doesn't mean that everyone or everything or every issue or every perspective on the

00:34:29.760 right is right and full of light.

00:34:32.340 I'm seeing that there's more of a chance, though, and there's more of an alignment there

00:34:36.920 when it comes to conservative policies and conservative ideas about immigration, about abortion,

00:34:42.720 about how to actually help the poor and allow them the dignity that comes through work that

00:34:47.980 we see reflected in scripture.

00:34:49.820 Yeah, I think that there is more of an alignment there, absolutely, between what the Bible does

00:34:55.920 say about human beings and human rights and righteous and just policy and conservatism.

00:35:02.500 Of course, I believe that.

00:35:03.660 I wouldn't believe the things that I do about politics if I didn't believe that.

00:35:06.820 I don't see any alignment on the left.

00:35:09.200 I just don't.

00:35:10.020 And apparently Tim Keller simply doesn't see leftism and the current, the current agenda

00:35:18.700 and platform of the Democratic Party does not see it for what it is, especially when

00:35:23.560 it comes to abortion.

00:35:24.940 Just to reiterate, it is not a debate between the left and the right about how to decrease

00:35:29.480 abortion.

00:35:30.020 It is a debate over whether or not abortion is even wrong.

00:35:33.260 Most people on the right would say, yeah, it is.

00:35:36.000 Christians on the right especially would say, yeah, we need to do away with it. 1.00

00:35:38.860 Democrats would say it's not even wrong or they would at least say maybe the most like

00:35:45.960 tepid Democrat would say, well, it's at least necessary.

00:35:49.080 It's just necessary.

00:35:50.280 It's just something that we have to do.

00:35:52.040 And at the end of the day, they would probably admit that they just think that it's a matter

00:35:55.460 of bodily autonomy.

00:35:57.080 That's the debate that we're having.

00:35:58.800 It's not about right and left.

00:36:00.380 It's about right and wrong.

00:36:02.220 That's what it is.

00:36:03.800 And Tim Keller is too scared to admit that.

00:36:05.920 He's too scared to say that because at the end of the day, I think Tim Keller is a

00:36:08.820 progressive and he's not going to give any points to the conservative side about that.

00:36:12.500 That's the issue.

00:36:15.920 Now, I agree with Mr. Keller that God is not Republican or Democrat.

00:36:20.240 He's not.

00:36:21.200 He transcends America.

00:36:23.300 He transcends our politics.

00:36:24.600 He transcends our partisanship.

00:36:25.880 I'm very thankful that God is not in the Republican Party, that he is not our political

00:36:31.300 mascot.

00:36:31.820 Unlike people on the left who tried to paint Jesus as some kind of transgender, queer,

00:36:36.360 communist, feminist, Palestinian, BLM freedom fighter, I don't believe that Jesus is any 0.71

00:36:43.620 kind of political mascot.

00:36:45.720 He's not.

00:36:46.320 He transcends all of that.

00:36:47.740 He is king of kings.

00:36:49.420 I simply believe that that reality, that he is king of kings, should shape how we think

00:36:54.320 of policy.

00:36:54.980 It should shape our worldview.

00:36:56.380 I don't believe our worldview should be fragmented.

00:36:58.400 I believe that Christianity is going to inform what I think about justice and what I think

00:37:04.740 about policies.

00:37:06.480 And I believe that scripture is going to and should inform what the Christian thinks about

00:37:10.560 this.

00:37:11.080 And for anyone who says separation of church and state, that's not what separation of church

00:37:14.340 and state means.

00:37:15.520 Separation of church and state is not the same thing as separation of worldview and how one

00:37:19.020 sees policy or the separation of God and law.

00:37:21.800 Separation of church and state simply means that the state should not be interfering in the

00:37:25.020 church's affairs and the church and the state also can't establish any kind of church religion

00:37:31.100 or any kind of state religion, rather.

00:37:34.260 And so people think that separation of church and state means that Christians and only Christians

00:37:38.980 should have to check our worldview at the door and that we can't bring it into the public

00:37:43.140 square, even though progressives, with their pseudo-religion of progressivism, they get

00:37:48.060 to allow their worldview to color and influence everything they think about policy.

00:37:54.160 Apparently, Christians are the only ones who are not allowed to.

00:37:57.140 And I just call just junk on that.

00:38:01.380 That's a bad argument.

00:38:02.600 Everyone has a worldview.

00:38:04.160 Everyone is informed by their worldview, Christians included.

00:38:08.120 And we should because, by the way, the God that Christians serve created justice.

00:38:11.560 And his definition of justice did lay the foundation for the basic principles of the Bill of Rights.

00:38:18.740 And so it is good that we allow our worldview to influence what we think about the law and

00:38:25.540 what we think about these so-called political and cultural issues, especially the ones that

00:38:28.860 are pre-political and are actually theological, such as abortion.

00:38:32.640 So Tim Keller, he goes on, he goes on to double and triple down.

00:38:37.940 He says, healthy disagreement, not about biblical morals, but about how these morals are applied

00:38:44.460 to political policies is good, but not something to divide over.

00:38:48.580 No matter how much we yell at each other, Christians can disagree about political applications

00:38:52.220 of biblical morals, not the same.

00:38:55.580 Okay, so I agree that if you, my sister in Christ, you believe in, I don't know, some kind

00:39:07.220 of disagreements over, I'm trying to even think like what that agreement would actually look

00:39:13.760 like.

00:39:14.060 Maybe if there's a disagreement in incrementalism versus abolishing abortion altogether.

00:39:19.960 For example, some pro-lifers, they're okay with the restrictions.

00:39:24.580 So like, okay, there's a 20-week restriction.

00:39:26.980 That's good.

00:39:27.740 There's a 15-week restriction.

00:39:29.280 That's good.

00:39:29.820 Let's keep pushing it back.

00:39:30.700 There's a six-week restriction.

00:39:31.720 That's good.

00:39:32.220 Okay, let's go all the way back to zero-week restriction.

00:39:35.760 And so they believe that incrementally, a state could get more pro-life.

00:39:41.140 And so some pro-life advocates are for that.

00:39:43.680 And then you've got the abolish abortion side, which says no incrementalism whatsoever.

00:39:49.160 The only just law, the only kind of law worth celebrating would be abolishing abortion from 0.93

00:39:54.220 the point of conception.

00:39:56.620 And so there could be some disagreement there, definitely, between Christians about, you know,

00:40:02.900 what should be celebrated and what should be advocated for, or at least what is worth

00:40:08.120 our, like, our praise that at least more babies are going to be saved, even through

00:40:15.580 incrementalism.

00:40:17.100 But I do not think believers can, in good faith, disagree about whether or not abortion is wrong 0.67

00:40:23.520 and whether or not it should be legal, period.

00:40:26.380 I just don't.

00:40:27.580 If you are a Christian and you don't believe that the law should restrict murder, then I 0.99

00:40:34.460 have to wonder if you believe that human beings are made in the image of God.

00:40:37.700 What do you believe about babies inside the womb?

00:40:39.380 Why do you think that murder should be restricted of people outside of the womb and not babies

00:40:43.220 inside the womb?

00:40:44.560 Like, what do you see in Scripture that supports that kind of separation of dignity, that people

00:40:50.000 inside the womb have less dignity? 0.87

00:40:51.540 Why?

00:40:51.860 Because they're smaller?

00:40:52.900 Because they're more dependent?

00:40:53.860 Because of the location?

00:40:55.780 They're inside a woman's womb? 1.00

00:40:57.240 Like, why do you think the baby in the womb is worth less than the person outside of the

00:41:01.020 womb?

00:41:01.220 And therefore, it should be okay to murder them legally, but it shouldn't be okay to

00:41:04.720 murder the person outside of the womb?

00:41:05.940 I'm not really sure that we can disagree on that and find unity.

00:41:09.360 That doesn't mean that that person's not a Christian necessarily, because we have all

00:41:13.400 believed wrong things, I think, at some point in our Christian faith.

00:41:17.460 Sanctification doesn't happen overnight.

00:41:19.220 I think it takes time.

00:41:20.280 It takes wisdom.

00:41:21.300 It takes correction.

00:41:22.180 It takes admonition.

00:41:23.320 It takes rebuking.

00:41:24.460 There are plenty of things I believed when I started out as a Christian that are just 0.94

00:41:29.440 not true theologically, politically, culturally, and it just took time and the wisdom of other

00:41:34.560 people and reading and thinking to come to what I think are biblical conclusions.

00:41:39.020 There are plenty of things now that I probably think that I don't realize are erroneous that

00:41:42.800 I will grow and read and learn over time, and I will change my mind on those things, hopefully,

00:41:47.720 to conform closer to what scripture says.

00:41:50.480 So that doesn't mean that someone isn't a Christian, but I don't think I can maintain 1.00

00:41:54.740 unity.

00:41:56.140 If I were in a church and half of the church believed that abortion should be legal and

00:42:00.180 abortion should be okay and my pastor was split on that, I do not believe that I should 1.00

00:42:03.820 stay at that church.

00:42:04.860 Because again, we disagree on Genesis 1.

00:42:07.140 And if we as a church disagree on Genesis 1 and a pastor isn't able to say so clearly

00:42:12.020 what Genesis 1 means and the implications of that, yes, even policy-wise, then I'm not

00:42:17.460 so sure you're being shepherded well.

00:42:19.380 I believe that you have a divided flock that is actually being led in chaos.

00:42:23.640 And God is not a God of confusion.

00:42:25.300 He is a God of peace.

00:42:26.960 And I think that a pastor should reflect that peace and that clarity.

00:42:30.620 There are some secondary tertiary issues that I think we will disagree on as Christians.

00:42:35.000 I mentioned some of those earlier, and that we can maintain a lot of unity when it comes

00:42:40.360 to those things, even if we duke it out.

00:42:41.900 That's okay.

00:42:42.460 Like, I think it's good to argue and still maintain unity.

00:42:45.000 But on some things, on those Genesis 1 things, I don't think that we can agree.

00:42:49.520 We're going to have some disunity as a church if we disagree on those very, very fundamental

00:42:56.420 things.

00:42:57.600 This, of course, is not the first time that Tim Keller has said some of the things that

00:43:01.200 he has.

00:43:02.840 He's talked about Christians and the freedom of conscience.

00:43:05.000 And politics back in 2020.

00:43:08.480 And so he's kind of been big on this, even as he has supported the idea of left-wing racial

00:43:14.840 and social justice.

00:43:15.660 He's written about these things before.

00:43:18.260 I think he would probably consider himself a moderate.

00:43:21.000 And, you know, I've heard him say something to this effect.

00:43:23.940 And I've also heard, you know, people like the Anne campaign say, as Christians, we really

00:43:30.040 should have some positions that are left and some positions that are right.

00:43:33.480 We should have some positions that are more in alignment with the Democratic Party and

00:43:38.340 some positions that are more in alignment with the Republican Party.

00:43:40.820 We shouldn't be partisan.

00:43:42.760 No, I think that the Christian, if we look at the Bible and we apply the Bible, we are

00:43:48.200 going to be far more conservative, at least on the what are considered the culture war issues

00:43:54.740 than any than most Republicans.

00:43:56.640 It's not being nonpartisan as a Christian doesn't mean that you're in the middle.

00:44:01.840 It doesn't mean that you're a liberal on some things.

00:44:03.860 It is going to put you in a place where you are far more conservative than the average Republican

00:44:07.880 today.

00:44:08.740 That means because you're going to be very clear on what marriage is.

00:44:12.220 You're going to be very clear on what gender is.

00:44:14.180 And look, we've got the biggest conservative network, Fox News, that just hired someone who now

00:44:19.860 goes by the name of Caitlyn Jenner.

00:44:22.220 And so as a Christian, you're going to be a lot more conservative than Fox News on these

00:44:26.300 fundamental issues.

00:44:27.740 You're going to be a lot more conservative when it comes to abortion.

00:44:29.960 You're going to be a lot more conservative when it comes to marriage.

00:44:32.660 Yes, even if we disagree in some ways, in some ways on how this looks politically, when

00:44:38.620 it comes to what we believe, we're going to be far more conservative than either policy.

00:44:42.640 We're probably going to be far more conservative when it comes to even welfare policy, because

00:44:46.440 unlike a lot of people in the most people, if not all in the Democratic Party, and unlike

00:44:51.200 unfortunately, even a lot of people in the Republican Party, or some people in the Republican

00:44:54.960 Party, we believe that work is absolutely necessary to human dignity, that you must have it, that

00:45:01.800 you must incentivize it, that it is absolutely ungodly to create a society in which people

00:45:07.680 are dependent on the government rather than on themselves and their own families and own

00:45:13.160 communities for provision.

00:45:15.320 And so being a Christian and being nonpartisan as a Christian, which I do think is important

00:45:21.480 in a lot of ways, is not going to put you in the middle.

00:45:23.740 It's not.

00:45:24.180 There's going to be very few things that you agree with the Democratic Party on.

00:45:27.520 I'm not saying nothing, but there's going to be very few things if you apply scripture

00:45:30.840 to how you think about culture and politics.

00:45:33.860 There are plenty, however, of Christians who disagree with this.

00:45:37.080 Jackie Hill Perry also sent kind of a vague tweet over the weekend that people were talking

00:45:48.620 about, and this is something that kind of happens a lot.

00:45:52.000 She tweeted in response to President Biden and one of the comments that he made at the

00:46:03.780 White House Correspondents' Dinner, which is just a ridiculous affair where people who are 1.00

00:46:13.500 unnecessarily self-important come together to feel even more important and to pat each

00:46:20.520 other on the back for, I'm not really sure what, I don't know, supporting the regime without

00:46:27.700 any kind of criticism whatsoever.

00:46:30.140 That's typically what happens.

00:46:31.520 And there were some good zingers.

00:46:34.180 I actually thought Trevor Noah, he had some good zingers.

00:46:37.520 He kind of picked at both sides, which I think if all reporters and all comedians did

00:46:46.120 that more, picked at both sides, I think we'd actually be a lot healthier as a country.

00:46:50.140 So President Biden said, if you're at home watching this and are wondering how to get

00:46:53.980 vaccinated, just contact your favorite Fox News reporter.

00:46:56.580 They're all here, vaccinated and boosted, you know, basically saying that he is, um,

00:47:01.960 that Fox News is hypocritical for being sane, I guess, I guess he's saying that they say

00:47:08.060 that they're against the vaccine, but they're all vaccinated themselves, which is not true.

00:47:10.880 I know that not all Fox News employees are vaccinated.

00:47:14.440 Tucker Carlson has said that he is not vaccinated, even though the media has tried to say that

00:47:17.900 he is vaccinated.

00:47:19.400 And so Joe Biden is kind of picking on them, which whatever, good for Joe Biden for being

00:47:25.000 able to finish a complete paragraph without forgetting where he was.

00:47:28.460 Jackie Hope Perry quote tweeted that and said, the shade of it all, laughing face, crying face,

00:47:34.100 crying face.

00:47:35.440 And I think at this point, people are used to her kind of showing in vague ways, which

00:47:42.960 side politically that she's on. 0.99

00:47:45.700 I'm not saying that this was some kind of awful, tragic tweet that she sent.

00:47:49.760 You're absolutely allowed to laugh at things.

00:47:51.920 But I think people have noticed how slanted these kinds of reactions are when it comes

00:47:56.780 from her.

00:47:57.840 And then she will say that she's not political, that she's apolitical, that both sides are

00:48:02.320 bad.

00:48:02.620 She did the same thing about Ketanji Brown Jackson when she commented on a picture of

00:48:07.100 her daughter looking at Ketanji Brown Jackson and said, mood.

00:48:10.360 And then she got mad at all of these so-called white evangelicals in her DMs who were pointing

00:48:15.040 out that Ketanji Brown Jackson has a really terrible, terrible record, especially from the Christian 1.00

00:48:19.940 perspective.

00:48:21.040 And she, of course, offended herself and said, you know, it didn't have anything to do with

00:48:23.800 politics.

00:48:24.180 It just had to do with this cool picture of a mother and daughter, which I don't really

00:48:31.120 believe that.

00:48:32.000 I thought it was a cute picture, too.

00:48:33.880 But if I am going to infer some kind of support for someone, I'm going to make sure that they

00:48:39.460 don't have a background that is absolutely reprehensible, especially from my Christian

00:48:44.480 perspective.

00:48:46.120 And so this has kind of been typical for the past few years from Jackie Hill Perry.

00:48:51.380 She's been very critical of Donald Trump.

00:48:53.240 She, of course, is all on board, at least from what I can see and from what I have heard

00:48:57.660 with progressivism when it comes to the subjects of social and racial justice.

00:49:01.640 Those are the narratives that she is going to perpetuate.

00:49:04.540 She has also criticized the right for saying that they are pro-life but not acting in other

00:49:11.700 kinds of what she would consider pro-life ways, you know, recognizing what she might call something

00:49:19.220 like black dignity.

00:49:20.620 I obviously have a ton of disagreements there.

00:49:23.220 Unfortunately, people send me these screenshots.

00:49:25.420 I can't follow myself because even though I've never had any kind of interaction with Jackie

00:49:29.180 Hill Perry, except for the one time that I asked her to come on my show, she blocked 0.91

00:49:32.640 me on all social media, which is just kind of sad.

00:49:36.160 And I do think that she has a lot of wonderful things to say.

00:49:40.060 I really appreciate her testimony, but it's the same kind of deal.

00:49:45.400 You see this so much from progressives.

00:49:46.920 Let me put this like vague tweet out there, leave people guessing.

00:49:50.260 Then when people criticize me for it, I'll call them bullies and say that it's really

00:49:54.720 their problem for not understanding exactly what I was saying.

00:49:58.160 So I would say just be discerning there.

00:50:00.160 Be discerning with all people, of course, including me.

00:50:02.860 Um, but also don't be afraid to ask people to like, what do you mean?

00:50:07.720 What do you mean?

00:50:08.200 Can you define that term?

00:50:10.660 Let me tell, let me hear what shapes your perspective.

00:50:13.320 What are you actually trying to say with this particular statement or this particular tweet?

00:50:17.920 I think that's important, especially when it comes to the people who say that they're

00:50:21.160 apolitical, but clearly are leaning progressive.

00:50:24.400 That's important to me.

00:50:25.380 All right.

00:50:28.280 So I just want to react to one more, one more piece of, um, woke Christian commentary that

00:50:35.440 I thought was not surprising at this point because it's coming from Jen Hatmaker. 0.83

00:50:39.960 And I think Jen Hatmaker is a completely, in a completely different category, um, than

00:50:45.000 Tim Keller or even Jackie Ho Perry.

00:50:47.420 I totally different category.

00:50:49.140 In my opinion, someone who continually in all different ways, just spouts nonsense, including

00:50:55.860 about gender and sexuality.

00:50:58.100 And so she had, um, an interesting clip with some kind of, I don't know, author or something,

00:51:05.580 um, on her show that I want to play you a little bit of.

00:51:09.800 Obviously I don't need everyone to go on a 400 mile walking pilgrimage to the black Madonnas,

00:51:13.800 but I need people to go on a journey for themselves to find their own sacredness that we can all

00:51:19.220 start to actually treat each other as if we're sacred.

00:51:22.080 That's beautiful.

00:51:23.700 Yeah.

00:51:24.260 Right.

00:51:24.620 The tendrils of that effect would change everything.

00:51:29.120 It would change everything.

00:51:29.920 Oh yeah.

00:51:30.740 Yeah.

00:51:31.100 And if we had a world where like all women and all black people were truly sacred,

00:51:37.040 right.

00:51:38.580 That would dismantle literally every system that harmed us.

00:51:42.340 That's right.

00:51:42.640 That would, that would mean the whole earth would flourish.

00:51:46.900 Oh yeah.

00:51:47.740 So, um, it always feels so self-defeating that patriarchy and racism and all the isms are

00:51:59.560 so stubborn and want, because it's, it would truly be the liberation of earth.

00:52:04.980 If everybody was valued as divine, it would, it would, it'd be the liberation of the whole

00:52:12.060 earth, even the men, even the white men, like it would be for their flourishing too.

00:52:17.320 And so it.

00:52:19.560 Okay.

00:52:20.320 All right.

00:52:20.980 Um, so this is a form of, well, it's a form of liberation theology that comes all the way

00:52:27.760 from James Cone.

00:52:28.880 And even before that, now James Cone is someone who is cited very often, even by people who

00:52:33.520 consider themselves conservative, even evangelicals, um, who himself was not a Christian, even though

00:52:40.240 he claimed to be a Christian.

00:52:41.120 How do I know that it's not just because I disagreed at some points in his theology, but

00:52:44.880 he actually said that he accepted any religion as legitimate, who believes in liberation.

00:52:49.540 So that included Islam.

00:52:51.100 He was, if anything, he was a universalist.

00:52:53.280 He didn't believe in the exclusivity of Christianity.

00:52:55.960 He didn't believe that Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life.

00:52:58.140 He believed in Christianity as a vehicle for liberation from political and earthly oppression

00:53:06.040 only.

00:53:07.260 He was not really interested in like the salvation and the regeneration of someone's heart.

00:53:11.860 And that is why he would accept, you know, Malcolm X's faith or, um, any other kind of

00:53:17.720 racial activist faith, as long as he agreed with them politically about the so-called liberation

00:53:24.300 of black people.

00:53:25.060 And it always had to do with the growth of the government, um, to accomplish their purposes.

00:53:30.400 And so that's part of what they're talking about here.

00:53:32.060 Part of also of what they're talking about is some kind of new age self goddess stuff in

00:53:39.020 where you see everyone as divine.

00:53:41.800 That's different than made in the image of a God.

00:53:43.780 We are not all divine.

00:53:45.120 We are not all gods.

00:53:46.720 We are not all little G gods or big G gods.

00:53:49.900 There is one God.

00:53:50.940 We are made in his image and we have, um, that spark and that reflection, which does give

00:53:56.720 us amazing value far beyond any plant or animal or any other organism on earth.

00:54:04.360 However, we are not divine.

00:54:07.540 We are not divine.

00:54:08.620 That is different because we are not worthy of worship ourselves.

00:54:11.720 We are not worthy of adoration ourselves.

00:54:14.280 And that is, um, a very typical new age idea that if we all just worshiped ourselves and

00:54:20.920 each other as a part of the divine, whatever, again, defining our terms, what does that even

00:54:26.020 mean?

00:54:26.540 Then we would all be liberated from these so-called systems that are apparently all weighing us

00:54:31.580 down.

00:54:32.140 What does that mean?

00:54:33.300 Now, maybe you go listen to that episode with Jen Hatmaker. 1.00

00:54:36.780 You go watch it and you say, you know what?

00:54:38.520 The context made this so much better.

00:54:40.140 And now I understand what she's saying.

00:54:42.480 You should, you should go listen.

00:54:43.780 We didn't, we didn't have time to play the whole thing.

00:54:45.900 You should go listen to it or watch it if you want to.

00:54:48.720 But what does this even mean?

00:54:50.520 This kind of theology is so intangible and is so, um, I don't even want to say academic

00:54:57.900 because that almost has like positive connotations, but is so ethereal and beyond the reach or the

00:55:07.160 comprehension of like any kind of common sense or any kind of basic understanding that human

00:55:13.300 beings have.

00:55:14.100 And that is why it is perpetuated.

00:55:17.620 Because if you continue to say that what I believe or really what's going to liberate

00:55:25.120 the world and what is going to heal us of all this earthly oppression is so beyond reach

00:55:30.720 that you really need me.

00:55:32.340 You really need me, this expert, this very smart person, this person that has special

00:55:37.320 access to this liberating knowledge, um, in order to attain it.

00:55:41.340 Well, then that person stays in a position of power.

00:55:43.600 That person continues to get money, continues to get attention.

00:55:46.500 You continue to get people to need you because you have access to this special power of the

00:55:51.600 divine that is going to liberate the earth.

00:55:54.100 Those people don't really want to relieve the earth of any kind of oppression, um, because

00:55:59.960 then they would be out of the job.

00:56:01.720 I mean, that's true of race hustlers and all of this. 0.92

00:56:04.420 Um, they'd be out of the job if oppression was actually relieved.

00:56:08.380 And of course, we know that they don't actually care about real oppression because the only

00:56:11.800 true reliever of oppression is the gospel, is through the changing of hearts, which does,

00:56:17.820 yes, affect our politics, but it's not primarily political.

00:56:21.180 It is theological.

00:56:22.180 And that's kind of, I guess, the theme of this episode.

00:56:24.480 It's just a bad understanding of how the Bible applies to politics in a bunch of different ways.

00:56:30.740 All right.

00:56:31.420 I hope you enjoyed all that.

00:56:33.560 We will be back here tomorrow with more.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 02, 2022

Ep 609 ｜ Tim Keller’s Terrible Abortion Take

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