Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 612 ｜ DEBATE： Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.

00:00:01.400 Happy Thursday.

00:00:02.600 This episode is brought to you by our friends

00:00:03.980 at Good Ranchers, American meat delivered

00:00:05.720 right to your front door.

00:00:06.900 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:08.520 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:19.860 All right, guys, I've got an episode for you today,

00:00:23.640 a fiery episode.

00:00:24.880 I just recorded an interview, a debate

00:00:26.860 with Brandon J. Robertson.

00:00:29.320 He is a progressive.

00:00:30.640 He calls himself a progressive Christian,

00:00:32.540 a pastor of Metanoia Church.

00:00:35.200 He calls himself a public theologian.

00:00:37.820 Now, you might know his name

00:00:39.140 and you might know his face and voice

00:00:40.880 if you listen to this podcast

00:00:42.380 or if you watch some of my videos on Instagram

00:00:45.060 because I have reacted to a previous video

00:00:47.800 that he did saying that Lazarus coming out of the tomb

00:00:50.860 was Jesus calling gay people to come out of the closet.

00:00:55.720 And so that's who we're talking to today.

00:00:58.120 He is pro-choice.

00:00:59.680 And so we are debating abortion.

00:01:02.340 Now, I would call that pro-abortion.

00:01:04.420 He refers to himself as pro-choice.

00:01:06.480 And so we had a very intense...

00:01:07.640 You guys know how passionate I am about this subject.

00:01:10.820 And so it did get very intense at times.

00:01:12.660 But I am very appreciative of Brandon being willing to come on

00:01:17.080 because most people that we ask,

00:01:19.220 that conservative shows in general,

00:01:20.720 ask to debate, especially this subject, say no.

00:01:23.760 He was very respectful.

00:01:25.560 So guys, if you disagree with him, especially on YouTube,

00:01:28.900 please leave respectful comments.

00:01:30.600 There should be absolutely no ad hominem attacks.

00:01:33.980 Be as respectful in your disagreement

00:01:36.340 and your dialogue as possible.

00:01:39.080 That's what we're looking for.

00:01:40.220 We can be very passionate.

00:01:41.380 You will hear in this conversation,

00:01:43.180 I get extremely riled up about the arguments

00:01:45.800 that were being made.

00:01:47.840 And that's fine.

00:01:49.000 That's fine.

00:01:49.580 But we should resist any kind of personal attacks

00:01:53.040 because it's good that we have this kind of dialogue.

00:01:55.920 Before we get into the conversation,

00:01:57.540 I just want to address that a lot of you guys

00:01:59.780 have been sending me messages over the past few days

00:02:02.140 just with the ridiculous posts

00:02:04.260 that your friends are sharing

00:02:05.340 that you didn't even realize

00:02:06.680 that your friends were pro-choice.

00:02:08.440 You didn't realize that they supported abortion

00:02:10.160 and the legal right to abortion.

00:02:12.400 And they have been posting about women's rights

00:02:14.760 and how scary this is

00:02:15.880 and how terrible this is over the past few days.

00:02:18.440 And you have asked me several times

00:02:20.740 to respond to the popular post

00:02:23.840 that you are seeing circulated by Brene Brown,

00:02:26.340 by Glennon Doyle,

00:02:27.460 by several other even professing Christian influencers.

00:02:31.480 Or you have pointed out

00:02:32.620 that a lot of your favorite female Christian influencers

00:02:36.620 who are so quick to talk about social justice

00:02:39.180 or police brutality,

00:02:40.800 even alleged police brutality,

00:02:42.460 or what's happening at the border

00:02:44.280 have nothing to say about abortion,

00:02:46.360 even though they call themselves pro-life.

00:02:48.440 And unfortunately,

00:02:49.060 I have not been able to respond

00:02:50.880 to every single argument out there,

00:02:53.080 every single post that you guys have sent me

00:02:54.640 and every single message over the past few days.

00:02:57.040 This reminds me a lot of June of 2020,

00:03:00.860 when a lot of your friends were posting things

00:03:03.040 about race and police and social justice

00:03:05.340 that were simply not backed up,

00:03:07.160 either by biblical theology or by facts and data.

00:03:11.020 And you guys were just asking me for help,

00:03:14.240 for arguments, for clarity and insanity,

00:03:16.780 because it kind of can feel like we're just going crazy

00:03:20.060 when it feels like we are in the minority.

00:03:22.520 I just want to encourage you guys with a few things.

00:03:25.220 And I posted this on Instagram,

00:03:26.660 and I'll say it again here.

00:03:27.900 In every conversation that you have with someone,

00:03:30.960 what you can do if you don't know what to say,

00:03:33.120 if you've never heard that argument before,

00:03:34.780 just bring it back to the baby.

00:03:37.180 Bring it back to what an abortion is.

00:03:39.720 Every story that you hear,

00:03:41.380 every anecdote that you're offered,

00:03:43.140 every argument, however nuanced and complex it is,

00:03:46.860 bring it back to,

00:03:47.780 but why is that a justification for killing a human being?

00:03:51.280 Now, what you will often hear,

00:03:53.580 and you'll hear that,

00:03:54.480 I don't want to give too much away,

00:03:55.540 but you'll hear a lot of this conversation

00:03:57.380 in today's discussion.

00:03:59.160 What is a human?

00:04:00.440 When does life begin?

00:04:01.660 And look, science says conception.

00:04:04.920 And so the question is,

00:04:06.340 when does someone get rights?

00:04:08.880 And if it's any time after conception,

00:04:11.140 it becomes arbitrary, right?

00:04:13.740 And arbitrary assignment of rights

00:04:17.100 to certain groups of people

00:04:19.320 based on the whims and desires of people in power

00:04:23.160 have been the mark of every human rights atrocity

00:04:27.040 from slavery to genocide for all of history.

00:04:29.600 And so just go back to the baby.

00:04:32.420 Go back to this innocent human life

00:04:34.320 that is being victimized.

00:04:35.420 Go back to what the abortion procedure entails,

00:04:38.380 which we have discussed so much.

00:04:40.380 I will link some of my most popular abortion episodes

00:04:44.200 in the description of this show.

00:04:47.440 We've done so many, so many.

00:04:50.060 So you can just look up Relatable Abortion

00:04:52.820 wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube.

00:04:55.380 They will all come up.

00:04:56.400 We have addressed pretty much every argument under the sun

00:04:59.180 when it comes to abortion.

00:05:01.160 And the second thing that I want to say

00:05:03.340 for all of you who are dealing with these conversations

00:05:06.660 and dialogue and debates and just anger,

00:05:08.640 maybe from some of your friends or family members

00:05:11.140 who are on the other side of this,

00:05:12.480 I just want to encourage you that you're doing a good job.

00:05:15.420 I have gotten so many messages saying,

00:05:18.680 you know, because you listen to a relatable podcast

00:05:22.380 or because we've talked about this so much,

00:05:24.420 or maybe you've listened to other pro-life advocates

00:05:27.040 for a long time, you have felt the courage

00:05:29.640 in a lot of cases for the first time

00:05:32.160 to speak up on behalf of unborn children,

00:05:35.620 to speak up on behalf of this vulnerable class of people.

00:05:39.820 And I just want to commend you for your courage.

00:05:42.700 I just want to commend you for your boldness.

00:05:44.800 And I want to tell you that even if the person's mind

00:05:47.660 didn't change who you messaged,

00:05:49.560 who you talked to, who you texted with,

00:05:51.980 that does not negate the significance of your obedience.

00:05:55.320 All right, that does not negate or minimize in any way

00:05:59.140 the significance of your obedience.

00:06:01.320 You have no idea what seed that you have planted.

00:06:03.820 You have no idea what God is going to do

00:06:05.760 with that conversation.

00:06:06.820 You have no idea what other conversations

00:06:08.560 that person is having,

00:06:09.760 how God is working in their heart and their mind.

00:06:12.720 I mean, think about all of us

00:06:13.940 and the different ways that we have changed our minds

00:06:15.960 on theological or moral things since we became a Christian.

00:06:19.620 Like there are probably some faulty things

00:06:21.280 that all of us believed a few years ago

00:06:23.160 that we no longer believe.

00:06:24.840 And it was a process.

00:06:26.100 It was because of conversations.

00:06:27.180 It was because of things we read.

00:06:28.680 It was because of God working on our hearts.

00:06:30.600 So understand that when you're having the conversations

00:06:33.440 and the arguments that you're having,

00:06:36.080 that your job is to be obedient.

00:06:38.700 Your job is to say what is true.

00:06:40.460 Your job is to speak the truth in love

00:06:42.840 about what abortion is.

00:06:44.560 And God is sovereign over that person.

00:06:46.500 Like God is in charge of changing

00:06:48.840 that person's heart and mind.

00:06:50.720 Ultimately, you are just playing a role.

00:06:53.240 Your job is to be obedient.

00:06:55.000 Your job is to be clear.

00:06:56.640 Your job is to be courageous.

00:06:58.100 Your job is to speak up for the person

00:06:59.740 that is completely forgotten

00:07:01.100 when it comes to pro-abortion arguments.

00:07:03.220 And that is the child that is being victimized,

00:07:05.680 killed, slaughtered, dismembered because of abortion.

00:07:08.840 If the church cannot stand up for this,

00:07:11.920 if this is not an issue that the church can care about

00:07:14.980 that we can't be clear on,

00:07:16.340 then we have completely dropped the ball.

00:07:18.260 Because as we've talked about

00:07:19.380 since the inception of Christianity,

00:07:21.360 we have been a refuge for the most vulnerable,

00:07:24.320 namely children who have in a million different ways

00:07:28.340 been victims of child sacrifice and exploitation

00:07:31.580 almost since the beginning of human history.

00:07:34.340 The church has to stand against that,

00:07:36.540 including abortion.

00:07:37.700 This is a biblical issue.

00:07:40.240 This is a Genesis 1 issue

00:07:42.320 that we are made in his image.

00:07:45.080 As R.C. Sproul has said,

00:07:47.160 and I've said many times,

00:07:48.460 if he knows anything about God,

00:07:49.760 it's that God hates abortion.

00:07:51.360 And let me just say,

00:07:52.140 before we get into the conversation,

00:07:53.580 I always want to reiterate this.

00:07:55.160 When I talk about just the wickedness

00:07:57.020 and brutality of abortion,

00:07:59.440 I just want to tell you

00:08:01.080 that if you have had an abortion,

00:08:03.480 if you are thinking about an abortion right now,

00:08:06.000 don't do this alone.

00:08:07.980 I know it might feel lonely.

00:08:09.460 You feel like your shame is crushing you,

00:08:11.180 your fear,

00:08:12.280 your anxiety,

00:08:13.600 whatever,

00:08:14.060 your guilt that is just tearing you apart on the inside

00:08:17.740 because you're thinking about this

00:08:19.220 or have already done this.

00:08:20.620 Listen,

00:08:21.320 you are no worse than any other sinner on earth.

00:08:25.180 All right?

00:08:25.720 You are no less of a candidate

00:08:29.040 for God's grace and forgiveness

00:08:31.000 and mercy and compassion than anyone else.

00:08:33.940 Ephesians 2 says,

00:08:34.720 we are all dead in sin apart from Christ.

00:08:37.440 There are not different levels of dead.

00:08:39.800 We are all dead in sin apart from Christ.

00:08:41.840 If you have had an abortion

00:08:43.120 and it is a secret

00:08:44.640 that has been weighing on your heart,

00:08:46.860 you need to go to a pro-life pregnancy sinner.

00:08:49.240 You need to go to someone within your church.

00:08:51.460 You need to go to a trusted Christian friend

00:08:54.000 and tell them,

00:08:55.740 bring that to light.

00:08:57.140 Let God heal you.

00:08:58.460 Let God show you how good he is,

00:09:00.880 how much he loves you,

00:09:02.140 that he sent his son to die for that sin,

00:09:04.720 to cover it up,

00:09:05.600 to pay every single debt that we have,

00:09:07.840 every single sin that we have committed.

00:09:09.500 There is no sin too big,

00:09:11.680 too secret,

00:09:12.660 too dark,

00:09:13.500 too grave

00:09:14.060 that God cannot forgive,

00:09:15.960 that Jesus' blood does not cover.

00:09:18.200 There is hope for you

00:09:19.140 and God can use your testimony,

00:09:21.920 your life

00:09:22.820 as a testament to his grace

00:09:25.660 and to help people

00:09:26.980 and to show people who he is,

00:09:29.700 what he's done for you

00:09:30.900 and to save the lives of other unborn children

00:09:33.360 and to help women

00:09:34.080 who are considering the same thing

00:09:35.480 that you have done.

00:09:36.520 And if you are a woman who is pregnant,

00:09:38.060 you don't know how you're going to do it.

00:09:39.760 Maybe you're considering an abortion.

00:09:41.540 There are people to help you.

00:09:43.500 I want you to go to your local

00:09:45.220 pro-life pregnancy center.

00:09:46.620 You can look up

00:09:47.260 pregnancy resource center in your area.

00:09:49.240 I'll try to find a link

00:09:50.100 that shows

00:09:50.740 where these pregnancy resource centers exist.

00:09:54.700 Message me if you can.

00:09:56.580 I pray to God that I will see it

00:09:58.100 and I will connect you

00:09:59.200 to the right people

00:10:00.420 that would not be the first time

00:10:01.980 that that has happened

00:10:03.260 behind the scenes.

00:10:04.640 There will be no shame

00:10:05.540 or judgment in our conversation.

00:10:07.580 I just want you to know

00:10:08.560 that you are not alone.

00:10:10.160 You are not alone

00:10:11.680 and there are options for you

00:10:13.720 and we will help you

00:10:16.240 however we can.

00:10:19.860 And so I just want to make sure

00:10:21.140 that we have that.

00:10:22.220 And look,

00:10:22.560 if you are someone

00:10:23.200 who is pro-choice

00:10:24.180 or you are someone

00:10:25.000 who considers yourself pro-abortion

00:10:27.100 or maybe personally pro-life

00:10:29.100 or politically pro-abortion,

00:10:31.480 I hope that you will go back

00:10:34.280 and listen to some abortion episodes

00:10:35.760 that we've had

00:10:36.420 or some of the conversation

00:10:37.920 that we're about to have today

00:10:39.240 and that you would reconsider

00:10:40.280 your position.

00:10:41.480 And remember that

00:10:42.160 these are people

00:10:42.780 made in the image of God

00:10:43.760 that we're talking about

00:10:44.560 and we're talking about

00:10:45.800 legally murdering them.

00:10:46.840 This is a matter of life and death

00:10:48.200 and there's not really a question

00:10:50.060 of which side Christians should be on.

00:10:52.300 Of course, my guest today,

00:10:53.480 he disagrees

00:10:54.380 and we will get into that

00:10:55.740 fiery disagreement in a second,

00:10:57.800 but I just kind of wanted

00:10:58.500 to give some context

00:10:59.380 and a precursor

00:11:00.240 for all of that

00:11:01.820 before we get into the conversation.

00:11:05.620 Brayden, thank you so much

00:11:07.060 for joining us

00:11:07.860 and like I said

00:11:08.580 before the camera started rolling

00:11:09.820 for being willing

00:11:11.160 to dialogue across the aisle

00:11:13.160 about this important subject.

00:11:14.880 So first,

00:11:15.340 I'm just going to open it up to you.

00:11:16.900 If you could just briefly

00:11:18.040 kind of summarize

00:11:18.820 why you consider yourself pro-choice,

00:11:21.920 why you believe

00:11:22.760 that abortion

00:11:23.580 should be a legal option

00:11:25.860 for women?

00:11:27.340 Yeah, I think abortion

00:11:28.680 is a morally complex issue

00:11:30.320 and one thing

00:11:31.120 that I always have said

00:11:32.180 about abortion

00:11:32.720 is that I don't know

00:11:33.800 any progressive person

00:11:35.160 that wants to see

00:11:35.800 abortion increased.

00:11:37.060 We all want to see it decreased.

00:11:38.620 I think the question

00:11:39.680 is about how we do that

00:11:41.280 and so I believe

00:11:42.600 that there are many instances

00:11:43.660 in which women

00:11:44.260 should have the right

00:11:45.140 to access abortion care.

00:11:46.580 There are many instances,

00:11:48.300 both from a faith perspective,

00:11:49.740 historically,

00:11:50.380 and from modern

00:11:51.520 scientific perspective,

00:11:52.500 about why women

00:11:54.840 should have access

00:11:55.420 to abortions.

00:11:56.320 And so I think

00:11:57.420 overturning Roe v. Wade

00:11:58.620 is an attempt

00:12:00.360 to completely ban abortion

00:12:02.320 in many states

00:12:03.120 across this country

00:12:03.960 and that's a net negative

00:12:05.980 that results in,

00:12:07.660 we know statistically,

00:12:09.920 women doing harm

00:12:12.260 to themselves

00:12:12.820 because they can't access

00:12:14.000 healthy abortions.

00:12:15.140 You can't ban

00:12:16.160 legal abortion

00:12:17.040 or you can't ban abortion,

00:12:18.160 you can only ban

00:12:18.680 legal abortions.

00:12:19.520 And so my whole point

00:12:20.880 is I want to see

00:12:21.880 abortions made available

00:12:23.800 and then through

00:12:25.760 comprehensive sex education,

00:12:27.280 through contraception,

00:12:28.600 through other means,

00:12:29.560 we can work on

00:12:30.580 reducing abortions together.

00:12:31.940 But I think

00:12:32.500 overturning Roe v. Wade

00:12:33.540 and banning abortion

00:12:34.280 altogether

00:12:34.700 is just not an effective way

00:12:36.540 to deal with this issue.

00:12:38.020 Okay, so there's a lot

00:12:39.260 in there

00:12:39.660 that I want to address.

00:12:41.060 First, I do think

00:12:42.040 that it is incorrect

00:12:42.860 to say that there is

00:12:43.960 no one on the progressive side

00:12:45.900 that believes

00:12:47.080 that abortion is good.

00:12:49.480 There was an article,

00:12:50.720 kind of infamous article,

00:12:52.060 at least from my perspective,

00:12:53.340 in New York Magazine,

00:12:54.380 which is a very mainstream outlet

00:12:55.780 in 2019,

00:12:57.000 titled Abortion is a Moral Good.

00:12:59.340 I've testified before Congress

00:13:00.720 and I heard the women next to me

00:13:02.360 who consider themselves

00:13:03.400 reproductive justice advocates

00:13:06.100 who talk about

00:13:07.220 not just that abortion

00:13:08.320 is a necessary evil,

00:13:09.940 but that it is actually

00:13:10.740 good for society.

00:13:12.380 It is good for women,

00:13:13.760 especially economically.

00:13:15.260 There's an organization

00:13:16.000 called Shout Your Abortion,

00:13:17.560 which has been touted

00:13:18.300 by people like Oprah

00:13:19.440 that is trying to

00:13:20.680 de-stigmatize abortion.

00:13:22.560 So yes,

00:13:23.180 there are many people

00:13:24.100 on the progressive side

00:13:25.200 that are not actually interested

00:13:26.600 in reducing abortion.

00:13:27.740 This whole trope

00:13:28.560 of safe, legal, and rare,

00:13:29.860 it might have been something

00:13:30.980 that was popular

00:13:31.660 in the Democratic Party

00:13:32.840 10, 15 years ago,

00:13:34.800 even by the current president

00:13:36.080 of the United States.

00:13:37.020 That is not

00:13:38.180 the current mission

00:13:39.280 or the platform

00:13:40.060 or the idea

00:13:41.160 that is predominantly

00:13:42.840 perpetuated on the left side.

00:13:45.980 It is that abortion

00:13:46.580 should be accessible

00:13:47.520 without apology

00:13:49.480 for any reason

00:13:50.580 through nine months

00:13:51.840 and subsidized

00:13:52.760 by the taxpayer.

00:13:54.180 So let's start there.

00:13:55.660 That is the current position

00:13:56.760 of the Democratic Party,

00:13:58.020 that abortion is not evil,

00:13:59.700 that it doesn't necessarily

00:14:00.860 need to be reduced,

00:14:01.980 but that it just needs

00:14:03.160 to be accessed

00:14:03.840 and even free.

00:14:04.700 So I disagree.

00:14:07.240 I think that what,

00:14:08.580 I think there are definitely

00:14:09.500 extremes on both sides.

00:14:10.800 I think there are extreme

00:14:11.400 pro-life and pro-choice people

00:14:12.880 that I as a Christian minister

00:14:14.600 would disagree with.

00:14:15.660 However, I do think

00:14:16.620 the vast majority

00:14:17.500 of Americans,

00:14:18.160 the 70% that support

00:14:20.080 the right to access abortion,

00:14:21.720 want to see abortions

00:14:23.060 decreased through

00:14:24.400 these other means

00:14:25.120 that I've named

00:14:25.820 and that Democrats

00:14:26.440 and progressives

00:14:26.980 have been naming

00:14:27.400 for many years.

00:14:29.000 And I do think,

00:14:30.140 yeah, you're right,

00:14:30.760 sure, there are people

00:14:31.500 on the extremes

00:14:32.240 who want to just say

00:14:33.300 abortions for everyone

00:14:35.420 up to nine months.

00:14:36.460 I think that is

00:14:37.060 a minority position

00:14:37.980 and I don't think

00:14:39.320 you could find

00:14:40.020 in the Democratic platform

00:14:40.980 where that would be

00:14:42.200 explicitly endorsed

00:14:43.560 by any mainstream

00:14:45.020 Democratic Party platform.

00:14:46.880 I actually think

00:14:47.540 it would be very different

00:14:48.540 or it would be very difficult

00:14:49.740 to find a mainstream Democrat

00:14:51.180 who today would say,

00:14:53.940 here's what I believe

00:14:54.840 should be the limit

00:14:56.000 on abortion.

00:14:56.880 Really what you hear

00:14:57.840 is that, well,

00:14:58.760 it should just be a choice.

00:14:59.800 I mean, this is the legislation

00:15:00.880 that we're seeing

00:15:01.480 in California

00:15:02.080 that we're seeing

00:15:02.740 in New Jersey

00:15:03.280 that we're seeing

00:15:03.820 in Maryland.

00:15:04.800 We are actually seeing

00:15:05.620 the decriminalization

00:15:06.860 of fatal negligence

00:15:08.480 of babies

00:15:09.220 even after they're born

00:15:10.380 and if they survive

00:15:11.640 an abortion.

00:15:12.940 I mean, you saw

00:15:13.640 the Born Alive Survivors Act

00:15:15.800 that Republicans

00:15:17.080 in the Senate

00:15:17.800 tried to pass

00:15:19.120 a couple years ago

00:15:20.240 and no Democrats

00:15:21.360 voted yes on it.

00:15:22.500 This was simply saying

00:15:23.500 that doctors

00:15:24.080 should be required

00:15:25.180 to provide

00:15:26.200 life-saving care

00:15:27.320 to babies

00:15:27.900 who survived

00:15:28.700 an abortion, okay?

00:15:29.720 So that's not even

00:15:30.420 limiting an abortion.

00:15:31.300 No Democrat

00:15:32.460 voted yes on that.

00:15:33.800 So it is a mainstream

00:15:34.960 extremist position

00:15:36.340 on the left.

00:15:37.220 I'm not saying

00:15:37.680 you represent it,

00:15:38.800 but it is a mainstream

00:15:39.600 position on the left

00:15:40.760 that there should be

00:15:41.640 absolutely no limits

00:15:42.980 to abortion.

00:15:43.800 So I just think

00:15:44.540 that you're wrong

00:15:45.120 that no progressives

00:15:46.120 think that there

00:15:47.420 should be,

00:15:48.540 you know,

00:15:49.300 no limits to abortion.

00:15:50.460 That is the mainstream

00:15:51.120 position today.

00:15:51.820 I didn't say no progressives,

00:15:53.280 and of course,

00:15:53.760 I'm not saying no progressives.

00:15:54.900 I say by and large,

00:15:55.760 most progressives

00:15:56.400 that I know of

00:15:57.300 would say that

00:15:58.280 about 20 weeks

00:15:59.240 is the general limit

00:16:01.000 on when we would

00:16:01.640 talk about

00:16:02.200 when an abortion

00:16:02.940 can take place,

00:16:04.220 and that's based

00:16:05.180 on viability.

00:16:06.880 That's based on

00:16:07.400 what we know

00:16:07.860 scientifically,

00:16:08.660 viability of the fetus

00:16:10.340 to be able to actually

00:16:11.200 grow into a full-born baby.

00:16:13.020 Okay, well, let's wait.

00:16:13.880 I want to hear more

00:16:14.640 about that,

00:16:15.180 because 24 weeks

00:16:16.100 is viability.

00:16:17.340 Babies as young

00:16:17.900 as 21 weeks

00:16:18.660 have survived

00:16:19.280 outside the womb.

00:16:20.320 24 weeks

00:16:21.140 is actually viability

00:16:22.240 where they have

00:16:23.080 more than a 50% chance

00:16:24.620 to survive outside the womb.

00:16:25.880 So let's hear a little bit

00:16:26.880 more about your reasoning.

00:16:28.100 Why should abortion

00:16:28.760 be allowed

00:16:29.260 before 20 weeks

00:16:30.080 but not after?

00:16:31.820 Well, simply because

00:16:32.800 of viability,

00:16:33.880 simply because...

00:16:34.520 They're not viable

00:16:35.000 at 20 weeks.

00:16:36.600 No, exactly.

00:16:37.280 So the moral question here

00:16:38.480 for me as a pastor

00:16:39.540 is when does life begin?

00:16:41.260 And this is the question

00:16:42.340 that Christians

00:16:43.000 and people of all faith

00:16:44.060 have been debating

00:16:44.840 for thousands of years.

00:16:46.820 In different traditions,

00:16:47.660 there are different answers

00:16:48.600 to this question.

00:16:49.760 I think scientifically,

00:16:50.840 we can say today

00:16:51.720 up to 24 weeks

00:16:53.000 is when a fetus

00:16:53.680 becomes viable.

00:16:54.460 So I think

00:16:54.880 that time frame

00:16:55.920 between 20 to 24 weeks

00:16:57.580 is the time that

00:16:58.340 we then can start

00:16:59.640 talking about

00:17:00.240 restrictions on abortion.

00:17:01.420 I do think there are

00:17:02.240 instances when

00:17:02.900 the mother's life

00:17:03.540 is at risk

00:17:06.120 that we have to talk

00:17:07.520 more broadly about this.

00:17:08.660 This is where

00:17:08.980 it gets morally complex.

00:17:10.500 But I think abortion,

00:17:11.760 like so many moral issues,

00:17:13.340 we want to make this

00:17:14.200 just black and white.

00:17:15.320 It either is completely

00:17:16.600 legal for everyone

00:17:17.940 or it's completely

00:17:18.780 banned for everyone.

00:17:19.820 And I think

00:17:20.260 these are highly

00:17:21.160 individualized situations

00:17:22.460 and it doesn't do good

00:17:23.720 for our polarization.

00:17:25.480 It doesn't do good

00:17:26.020 for the health

00:17:26.480 of anyone in our country

00:17:27.620 when we simply

00:17:28.380 make this black and white

00:17:29.460 in or out,

00:17:30.220 good or bad,

00:17:30.800 because it's not

00:17:31.640 that simple.

00:17:33.500 So human beings,

00:17:34.500 we become human beings

00:17:35.840 technically,

00:17:36.580 scientifically

00:17:37.140 at the moment

00:17:38.420 of conception.

00:17:39.100 That's when we have

00:17:40.040 our unique DNA.

00:17:41.160 Now listen,

00:17:41.860 what you are arguing

00:17:42.880 is,

00:17:43.740 and a lot of people

00:17:44.500 have argued it,

00:17:45.080 you're right,

00:17:45.520 different traditions

00:17:46.080 say different things.

00:17:46.920 The argument is not

00:17:47.860 whether a person

00:17:49.700 is a human

00:17:50.580 is a human

00:17:51.180 at conception.

00:17:52.040 We have everything

00:17:53.000 that we need

00:17:53.860 and just need time

00:17:55.440 in order to develop

00:17:57.340 into a baby

00:17:58.140 that is able

00:17:58.660 to survive outside the womb.

00:17:59.740 We are all human beings

00:18:01.280 at conception.

00:18:02.140 The question is

00:18:03.200 that you are bringing up

00:18:04.160 is when does a human being

00:18:05.580 become a person?

00:18:07.140 When does a human being

00:18:09.140 get rights?

00:18:10.160 That is really

00:18:11.020 the debate

00:18:11.660 that you are raising.

00:18:12.300 There is no question

00:18:13.320 in embryology

00:18:14.260 or biology

00:18:15.040 when a human being

00:18:16.580 is a human being.

00:18:18.100 I mean,

00:18:18.300 if you have ever seen

00:18:19.640 a baby

00:18:20.560 in a first trimester

00:18:22.640 sonogram,

00:18:24.060 that's a baby.

00:18:24.940 That is a baby.

00:18:25.880 That's not just a blob.

00:18:27.400 That is a baby

00:18:28.320 with not just a heart

00:18:29.820 and a brain

00:18:30.460 and ribs

00:18:31.040 and lungs

00:18:31.580 and fingers

00:18:32.140 and toes

00:18:32.740 moving and kicking

00:18:33.720 and teeth

00:18:34.680 that you can see

00:18:35.560 and lungs

00:18:36.400 that are developing.

00:18:37.560 I mean,

00:18:37.760 you see a fully formed

00:18:39.300 human being

00:18:40.340 at just 10 weeks

00:18:41.740 gestation

00:18:42.500 inside the womb.

00:18:44.280 And so why?

00:18:45.380 Why do you say

00:18:46.500 that that clearly

00:18:47.680 human being

00:18:48.460 that we can see

00:18:49.320 why is that

00:18:50.380 not a human?

00:18:51.040 Who decided that?

00:18:52.120 Why all the sudden

00:18:53.420 at 20 weeks gestation

00:18:55.180 does that person

00:18:56.000 become a human?

00:18:56.740 Like,

00:18:57.080 when did that happen

00:18:58.180 and why do you

00:19:00.080 have the authority

00:19:00.820 to say that they're

00:19:01.560 not a human

00:19:02.040 before that?

00:19:03.520 I've never claimed

00:19:04.380 to have any authority

00:19:05.000 on this issue.

00:19:06.020 I'm speaking for myself.

00:19:06.880 Apparently you do

00:19:07.360 because you believe

00:19:08.220 that people should be able

00:19:09.060 to kill that human being

00:19:10.120 before that.

00:19:10.780 So why?

00:19:11.900 Because it's not

00:19:12.520 a human being.

00:19:13.180 I don't think

00:19:13.500 any modern science

00:19:16.340 would say that

00:19:17.320 just when a baby

00:19:19.180 is conceived

00:19:19.760 that that is now

00:19:20.440 a human being

00:19:20.880 that is a potential life.

00:19:22.320 I will give you that.

00:19:23.200 It's alive.

00:19:23.800 If it's not alive

00:19:24.640 then the woman

00:19:25.060 isn't pregnant.

00:19:25.800 Then the woman

00:19:26.200 has had,

00:19:26.640 what happens in a miscarriage

00:19:27.780 if that human being

00:19:28.640 is not alive

00:19:29.220 in the womb?

00:19:30.300 Viability is the standard

00:19:31.680 by which we know

00:19:32.560 a fetus

00:19:33.900 can become

00:19:34.620 a fully alive

00:19:35.460 human being.

00:19:36.300 They are fully alive.

00:19:38.020 I know that you've

00:19:38.920 never been pregnant.

00:19:39.620 I know that the left

00:19:40.360 is confused

00:19:40.880 about whether men

00:19:41.660 or women

00:19:42.060 can actually carry a child

00:19:43.420 but that human being

00:19:45.000 is alive.

00:19:45.520 You can feel that baby

00:19:46.380 kicking at 16 weeks.

00:19:48.220 You can see the baby

00:19:49.040 in the sonogram

00:19:49.720 moving and kicking around.

00:19:51.220 They can recognize

00:19:52.020 their mother's voice

00:19:52.920 before the time you say

00:19:54.220 that they are

00:19:55.240 an actual human being.

00:19:56.540 Science does tell us

00:19:57.540 they're a human being.

00:19:58.280 You are saying

00:19:58.840 that some human beings

00:19:59.840 don't have rights.

00:20:01.220 That is what

00:20:01.740 modern science says.

00:20:02.960 Yours is a superstitious

00:20:04.080 philosophical position

00:20:05.440 not a scientific one.

00:20:07.160 Well I am primarily

00:20:08.120 a pastor and theologian

00:20:09.300 so yes I'm going to

00:20:10.040 talk from a theological

00:20:10.860 and philosophical perspective

00:20:12.120 primarily.

00:20:13.280 Okay give me

00:20:13.780 the theological support

00:20:14.800 for a baby

00:20:16.300 all of a sudden

00:20:16.920 becoming a human

00:20:17.560 at 20 weeks.

00:20:19.020 The earliest Jewish

00:20:19.780 tradition in the

00:20:20.500 Hebrew Bible

00:20:21.060 says that a person

00:20:22.420 doesn't become a person

00:20:23.080 until first breath.

00:20:24.040 Now I reject that

00:20:24.940 but here's the thing

00:20:26.140 there is ancient tradition

00:20:27.520 there is ancient

00:20:28.040 religious tradition

00:20:28.680 we would even say

00:20:29.280 there's ancient

00:20:29.700 Judeo-Christian tradition

00:20:30.980 that has disagreed

00:20:32.320 about when exactly

00:20:33.200 life begins

00:20:33.800 and that is the

00:20:34.500 complex moral question.

00:20:36.120 So I think

00:20:37.060 it's important to go

00:20:37.940 with what the science

00:20:38.700 actually says.

00:20:39.700 I've never read

00:20:40.520 any scientific report

00:20:41.520 in all my studies

00:20:42.240 of abortion

00:20:42.700 over the past

00:20:43.320 8 to 10 years

00:20:44.100 that I've been talking

00:20:44.720 about this topic

00:20:45.420 that says

00:20:45.900 when a baby

00:20:47.480 is conceived

00:20:48.080 that that is a human being.

00:20:49.500 I don't think

00:20:49.840 any science...

00:20:50.520 What else is it?

00:20:51.220 Okay here

00:20:51.880 what else is it

00:20:52.960 if it's not a human being?

00:20:54.000 Is it a summer squash?

00:20:55.280 Is it a turvus tumbler?

00:20:57.320 But that doesn't

00:20:58.260 actually exist.

00:20:59.400 We're not potential.

00:21:00.940 We're not potential.

00:21:02.160 That doesn't even

00:21:02.720 make sense.

00:21:03.460 Okay tell me then

00:21:04.100 what happens

00:21:04.520 is it a miscarriage?

00:21:06.560 That's a potential

00:21:07.540 human life

00:21:08.180 that was ended.

00:21:09.100 That's a horrible...

00:21:09.880 A potential human life

00:21:10.760 that was ended.

00:21:11.200 Do you not hear

00:21:11.800 that that doesn't

00:21:12.380 make any sense?

00:21:13.140 A potential human life

00:21:14.320 can't exist

00:21:15.100 because potential

00:21:15.780 means it doesn't

00:21:16.380 exist yet.

00:21:17.680 Potential by definition

00:21:18.960 means that it

00:21:19.540 does not exist yet.

00:21:21.080 So a potential

00:21:21.600 something cannot end.

00:21:23.400 It has to exist

00:21:24.240 for it to end.

00:21:25.080 It has to live

00:21:25.640 for it to die.

00:21:27.280 That's a completely

00:21:27.880 illogical argument.

00:21:28.780 Okay let's break it down.

00:21:35.160 Let's break it down.

00:21:35.940 Tell me how something

00:21:36.860 that does not exist

00:21:38.420 ceases to exist.

00:21:40.220 I didn't say

00:21:40.600 it doesn't exist.

00:21:41.200 I said it has

00:21:41.540 the potential to exist

00:21:42.420 and you can stop

00:21:43.100 the potential

00:21:43.680 of that life

00:21:44.360 from becoming real.

00:21:45.120 But it does exist

00:21:46.480 or else it can't die.

00:21:48.920 It's the potential

00:21:50.000 ends.

00:21:50.580 The potential

00:21:50.940 for that fetus

00:21:52.240 to become a fully

00:21:53.020 So when a woman

00:21:53.660 is pregnant

00:21:54.260 she's not actually

00:21:55.140 pregnant with anything

00:21:55.940 when she sees

00:21:56.660 in the ultrasound

00:21:57.420 at eight weeks

00:21:58.720 that beating heart

00:21:59.660 that's a potential

00:22:00.700 Potential what?

00:22:02.280 A potential what?

00:22:03.900 Potential human life.

00:22:04.760 Then what is it

00:22:05.840 at the time

00:22:06.340 you can't

00:22:06.780 if you see something

00:22:07.880 if something tangibly exists

00:22:09.240 this is not a potential

00:22:10.680 this is not a potential

00:22:12.420 microphone

00:22:12.940 this is an actual microphone.

00:22:14.880 When you put a seed

00:22:15.540 in the ground

00:22:16.180 is it a tree

00:22:17.020 or is it a potential tree?

00:22:18.540 It is a potential tree.

00:22:19.580 But listen

00:22:20.500 it's not just a seed

00:22:21.760 it's not just a seed

00:22:22.940 that we're talking about

00:22:23.760 we are talking

00:22:24.440 about all of the cells

00:22:26.180 all of the cells

00:22:27.400 that are necessary

00:22:28.240 to grow

00:22:29.560 into a fully formed baby

00:22:31.820 but it is a human being

00:22:33.440 at conception

00:22:34.080 you simply believe

00:22:35.480 that it is okay

00:22:36.360 to kill certain human beings

00:22:37.980 because they're not

00:22:38.660 big enough yet.

00:22:39.760 That is the debate.

00:22:40.780 There's no scientific debate

00:22:42.160 about whether or not

00:22:43.120 a human is a human

00:22:43.960 at conception.

00:22:44.640 The whole debate

00:22:45.240 is whether or not

00:22:46.160 that human being

00:22:46.860 has rights

00:22:47.460 and you believe

00:22:48.740 that some human beings

00:22:50.660 don't have rights.

00:22:51.900 That's what you believe.

00:22:52.740 But as a Christian

00:22:54.740 I think that what you're doing

00:22:55.780 is unethical

00:22:56.580 by jumping the gun

00:22:57.680 and taking words

00:22:58.440 that I'm not saying

00:22:59.180 and making the words

00:23:00.160 that sound good

00:23:01.200 to your audience.

00:23:02.260 A potential human life

00:23:03.220 is a potential human life.

00:23:04.700 I think scientifically

00:23:05.700 I stand with

00:23:06.740 the majority

00:23:07.440 of the science today.

00:23:08.460 I'm very confident

00:23:09.160 in that.

00:23:10.200 And again

00:23:11.480 I'm not

00:23:11.940 my primary objective

00:23:13.820 is to simply say

00:23:15.120 we want to see

00:23:15.840 abortions reduced

00:23:16.680 and the way we're going

00:23:17.260 to do that

00:23:17.560 is not by banning abortions.

00:23:18.800 We can get into

00:23:19.480 the technical conversation

00:23:20.600 but it's a complex

00:23:21.320 moral conversation

00:23:22.140 that's been going on

00:23:22.940 in our country

00:23:23.960 for a very long time

00:23:25.360 and there are not

00:23:26.060 clear answers.

00:23:26.920 I want to talk about

00:23:27.780 what is the best way

00:23:28.920 to ensure that women

00:23:30.120 stay healthy

00:23:30.700 to ensure that

00:23:32.120 our country continues

00:23:33.280 to move forward

00:23:34.040 in a way that protects

00:23:34.900 everyone

00:23:35.360 including the least vulnerable

00:23:36.500 and I don't think

00:23:37.320 that is through

00:23:38.160 banning and criminalizing

00:23:40.120 abortion

00:23:40.520 which is what a number

00:23:41.660 of these Republican states

00:23:42.700 want to do

00:23:43.380 if Roe v. Wade

00:23:44.100 is overturned

00:23:44.880 and that will

00:23:45.640 we know statistically

00:23:47.300 that that will

00:23:48.340 cause great

00:23:49.480 harm to women

00:23:50.200 and that will

00:23:50.980 cause great harm

00:23:51.600 to many people

00:23:52.200 across the country

00:23:52.860 disproportionately affecting

00:23:54.000 communities of color

00:23:54.980 and communities

00:23:56.280 that are already

00:23:57.480 disadvantaged in our society.

00:23:59.560 Well unfortunately

00:24:00.060 people of color

00:24:01.020 are already

00:24:01.760 disproportionately

00:24:02.420 affected by abortion

00:24:04.180 in New York City

00:24:05.200 several years in a row

00:24:06.300 more black babies

00:24:07.760 were aborted

00:24:08.840 than born

00:24:09.960 a highly disproportionate

00:24:11.420 number of black babies

00:24:12.360 are aborted every year

00:24:13.340 and of course

00:24:14.200 that goes back

00:24:14.760 to the history

00:24:15.300 and the origins

00:24:15.840 of Planned Parenthood

00:24:16.560 which was started

00:24:17.680 by a white supremacist

00:24:18.800 eugenicist

00:24:19.420 it's carrying on

00:24:20.300 that legacy today

00:24:21.160 by disproportionately

00:24:22.040 killing unborn children

00:24:24.500 and so if you want

00:24:25.340 to talk about harm

00:24:26.200 from our perspective

00:24:27.480 if you want to talk

00:24:28.240 about harm

00:24:28.740 if you want to talk

00:24:29.360 about danger

00:24:30.040 like we can talk

00:24:31.500 about poisoning

00:24:32.240 and dismembering

00:24:33.580 and purposely

00:24:34.500 start stopping

00:24:35.680 the heartbeat

00:24:36.480 of living human beings

00:24:38.600 while they are

00:24:39.860 in the womb

00:24:40.280 and if you just want

00:24:41.240 to focus on

00:24:42.240 post viability

00:24:44.100 abortions

00:24:44.800 unfortunately

00:24:45.200 that happens

00:24:45.940 at least

00:24:46.580 10,000 times

00:24:47.660 a year

00:24:48.060 these are brutal

00:24:49.160 procedures

00:24:49.680 really

00:24:50.060 from conception

00:24:50.940 onward

00:24:51.560 abortion

00:24:51.980 is a brutal

00:24:52.880 violent

00:24:53.980 procedure

00:24:54.680 of human beings

00:24:56.080 that are made

00:24:57.140 in the image

00:24:57.880 of God

00:24:58.240 so if you want

00:24:58.660 to talk about

00:24:59.060 danger

00:24:59.500 if you want

00:25:00.100 to talk about

00:25:00.520 violence

00:25:01.120 if you want

00:25:01.820 to talk about

00:25:02.460 things that are

00:25:03.000 harming

00:25:03.580 like let's talk

00:25:04.600 about the abortion

00:25:05.680 procedure

00:25:06.300 which is killing

00:25:07.360 people

00:25:07.780 which I just

00:25:08.760 can't find

00:25:09.420 in all of my

00:25:10.160 study of scripture

00:25:10.940 that the God

00:25:11.980 who made us

00:25:13.360 in our mother's womb

00:25:14.700 fearfully

00:25:15.240 and wonderfully

00:25:15.980 and purposely

00:25:16.800 with specificity

00:25:18.420 that the Jesus

00:25:19.280 who invited

00:25:19.980 the children

00:25:20.740 to come to him

00:25:21.640 that the God

00:25:22.340 who says

00:25:22.880 in Jeremiah 1

00:25:23.860 that before he

00:25:24.700 formed us

00:25:25.880 in our womb

00:25:26.860 that he knew us

00:25:27.760 I cannot find

00:25:29.120 anywhere in Leviticus

00:25:30.560 when God calls

00:25:32.080 for the death penalty

00:25:32.980 of the Israelites

00:25:34.020 who were sacrificing

00:25:35.060 their children

00:25:35.680 to Molech

00:25:36.560 I cannot find

00:25:37.740 anywhere in scripture

00:25:38.640 that that God

00:25:39.500 who purposely

00:25:40.800 creates us

00:25:41.540 who made us

00:25:42.320 all in his image

00:25:43.400 who hates

00:25:44.160 the shedding

00:25:44.640 of innocent blood

00:25:45.840 I cannot find

00:25:46.900 anywhere in scripture

00:25:48.120 that there would be

00:25:48.720 any justification

00:25:49.620 for killing

00:25:50.700 for example

00:25:51.340 a 19 and a half

00:25:52.900 week baby

00:25:53.620 but not

00:25:54.500 a 20 week baby

00:25:55.800 that's arbitrary

00:25:56.820 and it has been

00:25:58.180 that arbitrary

00:25:58.880 assignment

00:25:59.700 of personhood

00:26:00.500 and rights

00:26:00.920 has been

00:26:01.880 the logical

00:26:02.940 justification

00:26:03.700 for every

00:26:04.980 single

00:26:05.460 dehumanization

00:26:06.540 and genocide

00:26:08.020 throughout history

00:26:09.340 there is nowhere

00:26:10.280 in scripture

00:26:10.820 that would do

00:26:11.740 anything

00:26:12.160 but condemn it

00:26:13.100 you're simply

00:26:14.780 incorrect

00:26:15.240 scientifically

00:26:15.780 we know

00:26:16.280 up to the moment

00:26:16.780 of viability

00:26:17.480 that thing

00:26:18.120 that you're

00:26:18.400 calling a baby

00:26:18.980 is not yet a baby

00:26:19.860 I fundamentally

00:26:20.520 disagree

00:26:20.880 it is a baby

00:26:21.380 it is a baby

00:26:22.620 you have never

00:26:23.860 maybe one day

00:26:25.120 when there is

00:26:25.620 a scientific development

00:26:26.780 where you can

00:26:27.640 carry a child

00:26:28.400 and you look

00:26:29.220 at the sonogram

00:26:29.900 and you see

00:26:31.020 that child

00:26:31.700 inside of you

00:26:32.800 there's no difference

00:26:34.340 there's no difference

00:26:34.980 between a 19 and a half

00:26:36.280 week baby

00:26:36.840 and a 20 week baby

00:26:37.920 that is a human being

00:26:39.080 that has been

00:26:39.620 kicking the walls

00:26:40.760 of your uterus

00:26:41.540 for several weeks

00:26:42.560 at that point

00:26:43.300 they don't suddenly

00:26:44.360 become a baby

00:26:45.040 that is a superstitious

00:26:46.720 unscientific view

00:26:48.320 that is not backed

00:26:49.500 by embryology

00:26:50.380 or any biological

00:26:51.600 knowledge of fetal

00:26:52.480 development at all

00:26:53.340 you have given in

00:26:54.620 to a dogmatic

00:26:56.280 superstitious view

00:26:57.940 of human life

00:26:59.300 it is arbitrary

00:27:00.400 your view is arbitrary

00:27:01.720 the leading

00:27:03.000 organizations in our country

00:27:04.960 like the CDC

00:27:05.680 and with us

00:27:07.960 I have

00:27:08.960 I can cite things

00:27:09.960 for you

00:27:10.340 we have

00:27:11.220 let me pull up

00:27:12.480 up to 23 weeks

00:27:15.060 the CDC says

00:27:16.980 that is when

00:27:17.440 the moment of

00:27:17.860 viability is

00:27:18.560 viability

00:27:19.180 yes viability

00:27:20.320 is not the same

00:27:20.920 thing as humanity

00:27:21.680 and you just said

00:27:22.740 that you are

00:27:23.220 for abortion

00:27:24.200 only until 20 weeks

00:27:25.780 20 weeks

00:27:26.220 isn't viability

00:27:26.920 so why

00:27:27.540 because up to that

00:27:29.920 point it is just

00:27:30.640 a potential human life

00:27:31.800 why 20 weeks

00:27:33.080 why 20 weeks

00:27:33.940 20 weeks

00:27:34.340 is not viability

00:27:35.160 so why

00:27:35.800 the CDC says

00:27:36.760 23 weeks

00:27:37.620 biologically

00:27:38.440 that is when

00:27:39.000 it becomes

00:27:39.480 fully able

00:27:40.620 to live outside

00:27:41.760 not 20 weeks

00:27:42.740 babies at 20 weeks

00:27:43.760 cannot live

00:27:44.340 outside the womb

00:27:44.920 so why are you

00:27:45.700 saying that

00:27:46.340 why are you

00:27:47.060 saying

00:27:47.340 23 weeks

00:27:48.540 I just put it

00:27:49.040 23 weeks

00:27:49.940 from the CDC

00:27:50.860 earlier you said

00:27:51.880 20 so now

00:27:52.880 we are getting

00:27:53.560 a little bit

00:27:54.080 more radical

00:27:54.700 ok so now

00:27:55.900 23 weeks

00:27:56.880 only when a baby

00:27:57.700 can survive

00:27:58.500 outside the womb

00:27:59.240 and so

00:28:00.400 people who

00:28:01.300 for example

00:28:01.960 outside of the womb

00:28:02.840 who are entirely

00:28:03.720 dependent on a

00:28:04.820 machine to live

00:28:05.880 who are not

00:28:07.440 able to survive

00:28:08.700 without the help

00:28:09.400 of other people

00:28:10.140 are those people

00:28:11.140 should we be able

00:28:11.900 to legally murder

00:28:12.700 them too

00:28:13.100 I'm just trying

00:28:13.780 to figure out

00:28:14.740 your definition

00:28:15.340 or your standard

00:28:16.040 of what humanity

00:28:16.960 is because

00:28:17.660 you haven't been

00:28:18.480 able to cite

00:28:19.180 the science on it

00:28:20.160 I have actually

00:28:21.460 you're bringing

00:28:21.820 in external

00:28:22.260 arguments to

00:28:22.860 emotionalize this

00:28:23.660 which is the

00:28:24.060 problem with

00:28:24.520 this entire debate

00:28:25.260 it's called logic

00:28:26.260 and you haven't

00:28:27.000 been able to

00:28:27.500 support it

00:28:27.860 the CDC says

00:28:28.680 that viability

00:28:29.260 starts at 23 weeks

00:28:30.420 not humanity

00:28:31.180 tell me

00:28:32.060 cite the

00:28:32.740 scientific literature

00:28:33.540 that says

00:28:33.960 humanity

00:28:34.520 starts at 23 weeks

00:28:35.780 both extremes

00:28:37.140 want to make this

00:28:37.880 a hyper emotional

00:28:38.680 argument

00:28:39.060 I'm not willing

00:28:39.680 to do that

00:28:40.140 I believe

00:28:40.580 this is a

00:28:40.980 complex moral

00:28:41.540 issue

00:28:41.900 I'm going

00:28:42.620 to continue

00:28:43.080 to stand

00:28:43.700 with the

00:28:44.700 millions

00:28:45.100 of people

00:28:46.240 the majority

00:28:46.920 of people

00:28:47.300 in our country

00:28:47.820 who believe

00:28:48.480 that abortion

00:28:49.040 should be able

00:28:49.760 to be accessed

00:28:50.300 in order to

00:28:50.860 protect both

00:28:51.800 the health

00:28:52.800 of the mother

00:28:53.260 and a lot

00:28:54.380 of these

00:28:54.880 a lot of

00:28:55.560 abortions

00:28:55.960 are taking

00:28:56.380 place

00:28:56.800 their general

00:28:58.000 health practices

00:28:58.740 this is to

00:28:59.400 be for the

00:29:00.300 well-being

00:29:00.740 of the mother

00:29:01.620 for people

00:29:03.120 the point is

00:29:05.360 I think the

00:29:06.700 emotionalization

00:29:07.480 of this argument

00:29:08.320 is not helping

00:29:09.180 us in this

00:29:10.100 country move

00:29:10.560 forward in any

00:29:11.060 way

00:29:11.240 I think if we

00:29:12.180 overturn Roe

00:29:13.280 versus Wade

00:29:13.800 I think we are

00:29:14.840 going to see

00:29:15.300 drastically negative

00:29:16.440 consequences

00:29:17.060 we're going to

00:29:17.680 see not abortion

00:29:18.880 end

00:29:19.400 we're going to

00:29:20.000 see legal

00:29:20.580 abortion end

00:29:21.440 and that's going

00:29:21.860 to result in

00:29:22.440 people doing

00:29:23.020 things that are

00:29:23.620 going to harm

00:29:24.040 themselves

00:29:24.440 and be very

00:29:26.360 unhealthy for them

00:29:27.660 because they're

00:29:28.280 going to find

00:29:28.640 alternative means

00:29:29.640 to get access

00:29:30.280 to abortion

00:29:30.800 the way we

00:29:31.780 decrease abortion

00:29:32.620 is through

00:29:33.440 increased sexual

00:29:34.220 education

00:29:34.660 increased contraceptive

00:29:35.940 increased women's

00:29:37.400 health

00:29:37.760 that is what we

00:29:38.700 need to do

00:29:39.080 we've seen that

00:29:39.840 over the past

00:29:40.620 decade we've seen

00:29:41.620 abortions decrease

00:29:42.500 under such policies

00:29:43.640 if we overturn Roe

00:29:44.900 versus Wade

00:29:45.240 we can only expect

00:29:46.240 that that abortion

00:29:47.220 numbers are actually

00:29:48.020 going to increase

00:29:48.800 just not in the

00:29:50.220 legal ways

00:29:50.820 and it's going to

00:29:51.560 put undue burden

00:29:52.260 on women

00:29:52.780 this is not the

00:29:54.000 best for our

00:29:54.540 country

00:29:54.860 this is not the

00:29:55.960 direction we should

00:29:56.640 beheading and

00:29:57.660 that's why I'm

00:29:59.680 opposing this

00:30:00.420 action this

00:30:01.120 potential draft

00:30:01.860 opinion by

00:30:02.340 Justice Aligo

00:30:03.320 okay let me

00:30:04.160 pause for a second

00:30:04.820 because they're

00:30:05.360 telling me two

00:30:05.900 things that one

00:30:06.640 your phone is

00:30:07.340 shaking or your

00:30:08.180 tape you might

00:30:09.080 have like your

00:30:09.680 hands on your

00:30:10.120 table so it

00:30:10.600 might be shaking

00:30:11.060 two Skype

00:30:12.300 because it does

00:30:13.660 this it is

00:30:14.260 blocking like I

00:30:15.360 can't hear you if

00:30:16.200 you're interjecting

00:30:17.000 on what I'm

00:30:17.360 saying it's

00:30:18.020 blocking it so

00:30:18.600 do you have

00:30:19.020 headphones just

00:30:20.100 so it doesn't

00:30:21.620 seem like we're

00:30:22.260 trying to silence

00:30:24.020 you

00:30:24.400 it's okay

00:30:26.180 yep

00:30:26.460 give me 10

00:30:28.920 seconds

00:30:29.320 that's fine

00:30:30.220 pulling in the

00:30:32.660 old-fashioned

00:30:33.200 iPhone headphones

00:30:34.380 let's see

00:30:35.060 those are the

00:30:36.000 best ones so

00:30:37.060 that's totally

00:30:37.660 fine

00:30:38.040 according to

00:30:43.500 the Guttmacher

00:30:44.260 Institute which

00:30:45.060 you probably know

00:30:45.960 is a pro-choice

00:30:47.980 pro-abortion

00:30:48.900 research institute

00:30:50.040 they actually say

00:30:51.020 that they cannot

00:30:51.940 find a causal

00:30:52.880 relationship between

00:30:54.320 some of the

00:30:54.840 progressive policies

00:30:55.720 that you're talking

00:30:56.500 about and a

00:30:57.120 reduction in

00:30:57.680 abortion now to

00:30:58.600 be fair they

00:30:59.520 also say that

00:31:00.720 they can't find a

00:31:01.540 causal relationship

00:31:02.320 between restrictions

00:31:03.520 on abortion and

00:31:04.800 reducing abortion

00:31:06.060 however a lot of

00:31:07.660 the time the

00:31:08.200 argument is made

00:31:08.980 that okay when

00:31:09.820 Democrats are

00:31:10.380 president then you

00:31:11.120 see abortion rates

00:31:11.980 lower so that

00:31:12.580 must mean that

00:31:13.140 democratic policies

00:31:14.260 are reducing

00:31:15.400 abortions for

00:31:16.060 example when

00:31:16.800 Barack Obama

00:31:17.340 was president

00:31:18.000 the abortion rate

00:31:18.900 was lower than

00:31:19.780 I believe when

00:31:20.980 George W.

00:31:21.640 Bush was

00:31:21.940 president however

00:31:23.080 if you look a

00:31:23.960 little bit more

00:31:24.380 closely at that

00:31:25.960 presidents are

00:31:28.200 not the ones

00:31:28.680 that are making

00:31:29.180 abortion policy

00:31:30.640 the state

00:31:31.100 legislatures are

00:31:32.520 making abortion

00:31:33.100 policy and when

00:31:34.000 Barack Obama

00:31:34.720 was president

00:31:35.480 Republicans

00:31:35.980 dominated state

00:31:36.920 legislatures and

00:31:38.040 passed more

00:31:38.640 anti-abortion

00:31:39.440 bills than they

00:31:40.000 had in all of

00:31:41.100 history and so

00:31:42.340 like if you want

00:31:43.240 to surmise that

00:31:44.060 maybe there's a

00:31:44.620 causal relationship

00:31:45.440 between one thing

00:31:46.660 and the abortion

00:31:48.020 rate you would

00:31:48.800 have to look at

00:31:49.320 the fact that the

00:31:50.160 actual people who

00:31:51.700 are making abortion

00:31:52.460 policy which is

00:31:53.220 not the president

00:31:53.940 which is typically

00:31:55.080 not the federal

00:31:55.740 government their

00:31:56.380 state governments

00:31:57.180 they were passing

00:31:58.340 anti-abortion

00:31:59.280 pro-life legislation

00:32:00.320 while Barack Obama

00:32:01.160 was president

00:32:01.660 so I just find

00:32:03.000 this idea that

00:32:04.480 oh we need all

00:32:05.320 these progressive

00:32:05.960 policies and then

00:32:06.920 we'll reduce

00:32:07.460 abortion I

00:32:08.480 understand the

00:32:09.760 assumption that

00:32:10.940 that would be the

00:32:11.680 case but I don't

00:32:12.700 think there's very

00:32:13.320 much much research

00:32:14.520 that is supporting

00:32:15.280 that in addition

00:32:16.200 even if we did

00:32:17.180 have discussions

00:32:18.080 about okay what

00:32:19.680 policies can we put

00:32:20.740 in place that

00:32:21.180 will help women

00:32:21.840 that will help

00:32:22.360 children that will

00:32:23.060 kind of take away

00:32:24.160 the felt need of

00:32:25.260 abortion I still

00:32:26.300 don't think that is

00:32:27.140 a justification for

00:32:28.820 taking away the

00:32:29.820 rights of pre-born

00:32:30.840 children simply

00:32:31.600 because they're

00:32:32.280 defenseless simply

00:32:33.120 because they're not

00:32:33.780 politically useful

00:32:34.600 simply because they're

00:32:35.740 young or smaller

00:32:36.620 exist inside the

00:32:37.800 womb that's not a

00:32:39.180 legal justification

00:32:40.040 for killing anyone

00:32:41.700 including babies

00:32:42.960 inside the womb

00:32:43.660 but you know that's

00:32:45.100 a straw man nobody

00:32:45.940 is saying that we're

00:32:46.800 people don't support

00:32:48.080 abortion because we

00:32:48.860 don't think these

00:32:49.520 potential lives are

00:32:50.800 politically useful

00:32:51.700 my question for you

00:32:52.840 is are do you

00:32:53.620 support Roe v Wade

00:32:55.060 completely being

00:32:55.760 overturned and

00:32:56.380 abortion being banned

00:32:57.160 made illegal across

00:32:58.000 the country in any

00:32:58.940 in any form so you

00:33:00.360 don't oh okay so

00:33:02.240 that is not what

00:33:03.500 happens when Roe v

00:33:04.460 Wade is overturned

00:33:05.620 so no but it is

00:33:06.620 what's happening in a

00:33:07.180 lot of these states

00:33:07.760 that have trigger

00:33:08.300 laws you just asked

00:33:09.260 if I you just asked

00:33:11.080 if Roe v Wade is

00:33:12.840 overturned and abortion

00:33:14.340 is banned across the

00:33:15.360 board but that's not

00:33:16.240 going to happen that's

00:33:17.100 not what overturning

00:33:17.760 Roe v Wade does

00:33:18.500 I'm asking you what

00:33:18.860 you believe I'm

00:33:19.700 asking you what you

00:33:20.440 want to see I

00:33:21.360 definitely want to

00:33:22.060 see Roe v Wade

00:33:22.640 overturned 100%

00:33:23.920 do you want to see

00:33:25.280 abortion banned across

00:33:26.200 the country yes or

00:33:26.980 no yes I believe that

00:33:28.400 we should be able to

00:33:29.180 legally recognize the

00:33:30.940 rights of unborn

00:33:32.020 children because they're

00:33:32.940 people just like

00:33:33.920 anyone else you're not

00:33:34.820 answering the question

00:33:35.620 should abortion be

00:33:36.540 illegal across the

00:33:37.340 country under all

00:33:38.100 circumstances yes I've

00:33:39.160 already said that

00:33:39.940 yeah abortion should be

00:33:42.140 illegal because these

00:33:43.200 are human beings

00:33:44.040 they're human beings

00:33:44.960 I think that's an

00:33:46.140 insane policy I think

00:33:47.300 it's out of sync with

00:33:48.320 almost all Christian

00:33:49.260 theology insane to

00:33:51.100 kill children simply

00:33:52.280 because you have

00:33:53.200 decided that at one

00:33:54.700 week in gestation

00:33:55.760 completely arbitrarily

00:33:57.280 that they all of a

00:33:58.400 sudden become human

00:33:59.280 beings and all of a

00:34:00.260 sudden become people

00:34:01.560 with rights just

00:34:02.520 because we say so

00:34:04.100 yes absolutely

00:34:05.380 now listen I know a

00:34:11.480 lot of people are

00:34:12.220 saying oh well this

00:34:13.420 is going to ban the

00:34:14.200 treatment of

00:34:14.600 miscarriages this is

00:34:15.540 going to ban the

00:34:16.100 treatment of ectopic

00:34:17.060 pregnancies this is

00:34:18.220 going to stop women

00:34:19.180 whose lives are at risk

00:34:20.340 from receiving care

00:34:21.320 that's not true in all

00:34:22.940 of those situations I

00:34:24.120 understand a baby has to

00:34:25.300 be removed that is

00:34:26.480 different than

00:34:27.060 purposely stopping the

00:34:28.380 heartbeat of and

00:34:29.720 poisoning a child I do

00:34:31.580 understand that there

00:34:32.360 are some complex

00:34:33.040 questions and some hard

00:34:34.020 decisions that have to

00:34:34.780 be made if the

00:34:35.740 physical life of a

00:34:36.880 woman is truly at risk

00:34:38.320 with the continuation of

00:34:39.500 their pregnancy now

00:34:40.540 anytime after

00:34:41.640 viability as we've

00:34:42.680 already talked about

00:34:43.360 is 23 weeks that

00:34:44.660 baby has to be

00:34:45.380 removed anyway so

00:34:46.280 that baby should be

00:34:46.900 delivered not

00:34:47.700 purposely killed the

00:34:48.960 baby's coming out

00:34:49.680 anyway now before

00:34:51.140 that I do believe

00:34:52.320 everything should be

00:34:53.840 done to try to

00:34:54.760 protect the life of

00:34:55.800 both the mother and

00:34:57.000 the child if the

00:34:58.100 baby sadly tragically

00:34:59.320 has to be removed

00:35:00.220 that's what has to

00:35:01.300 happen but we're

00:35:02.040 talking about the

00:35:02.700 intentional killing of

00:35:04.580 a child and I always

00:35:06.240 think that that is

00:35:07.020 wrong I always think

00:35:08.240 that that should be

00:35:08.840 illegal yes I've

00:35:10.500 said that many times

00:35:11.300 so I'm certainly not

00:35:12.080 afraid to say that

00:35:12.740 and our and our

00:35:13.780 fundamental disagreement

00:35:14.660 and the fundamental

00:35:15.300 disagreement with my

00:35:16.560 side of the aisle on

00:35:17.460 this argument is that

00:35:18.480 potential life is not

00:35:19.720 life and I think you're

00:35:20.580 going to keep pushing

00:35:21.100 back on that and I

00:35:22.740 think we fundamentally

00:35:23.420 disagree and I think

00:35:24.380 we stand on the side

00:35:25.500 of the science and

00:35:26.820 that's where this

00:35:27.720 disagreement comes down

00:35:28.500 to I just really want

00:35:29.040 you to cite the

00:35:29.900 science that says a

00:35:30.800 human is not a human

00:35:31.660 until 20 weeks

00:35:32.720 because and cite the

00:35:34.100 science that says

00:35:34.680 viability is the

00:35:35.820 science viability is

00:35:37.060 not humanity viability

00:35:38.580 is not the same thing

00:35:39.380 no it's not no it

00:35:40.780 is not because then

00:35:41.680 again you could apply

00:35:42.680 that outside of the

00:35:43.680 womb viability means

00:35:44.800 that they can survive

00:35:45.740 without the help of

00:35:47.280 the mother outside of

00:35:48.740 the womb there are

00:35:49.580 plenty of people who

00:35:51.320 cannot survive without

00:35:52.960 the help of for

00:35:54.060 example a machine and

00:35:55.780 so your standard is

00:35:57.640 arbitrary your standard

00:35:58.860 is arbitrary those are

00:35:59.940 two very different

00:36:00.800 things those are two

00:36:01.600 very different tell

00:36:02.300 me tell me how people

00:36:03.460 that need to survive

00:36:04.260 with the machine is

00:36:05.000 very different than an

00:36:06.160 infant we know the

00:36:07.400 skin the skin of a

00:36:09.980 fetus before viability

00:36:11.240 can barely survive

00:36:13.020 being touched outside

00:36:14.060 of the womb okay it

00:36:15.140 takes the chances of

00:36:17.580 that potential life

00:36:18.800 becoming an actual

00:36:19.620 life are almost none

00:36:21.020 we know that to be

00:36:22.340 true they're alive in

00:36:24.160 the womb what does

00:36:25.360 it mean it's not

00:36:26.040 they're what is life

00:36:27.300 what does alive mean

00:36:28.480 what does alive mean

00:36:29.520 they're alive from the

00:36:30.760 point of conception

00:36:31.560 because again

00:36:32.180 otherwise a miscarriage

00:36:33.440 or an abortion

00:36:33.980 wouldn't do anything

00:36:35.340 no you cannot logically

00:36:37.180 explain how a potential

00:36:39.360 thing no you can't

00:36:40.320 you haven't been able

00:36:40.980 to do it how something

00:36:41.960 that potentially exists

00:36:43.520 can then stop existing

00:36:44.980 if it potentially exists

00:36:46.260 potential existence

00:36:47.200 is not existence

00:36:48.040 that it exactly

00:36:49.100 so it can't cease to

00:36:50.440 exist so a miscarriage

00:36:51.400 and abortion is nothing

00:36:51.840 this is how biology

00:36:52.660 works no I'm sorry

00:36:53.980 that you're denying

00:36:54.620 biology yes when growth

00:36:56.040 when anything grows

00:36:57.120 biologically it is a

00:36:58.540 potential until it

00:36:59.540 becomes the full thing

00:37:00.820 we can use an argument

00:37:02.100 that as we did earlier

00:37:03.220 that is not quite as

00:37:04.160 charged take any

00:37:05.500 biological plant

00:37:06.640 that is growing

00:37:07.380 as it's growing

00:37:08.280 it is not the full

00:37:09.300 thing a tree is not

00:37:10.300 a tree until it's

00:37:11.080 fully grown into a

00:37:12.080 tree it is a potential

00:37:13.420 for that there's a

00:37:14.560 seed there's a

00:37:15.580 sapling there are

00:37:16.640 different stages of

00:37:18.340 being a tree they

00:37:19.200 don't it's never less

00:37:20.920 of a tree there are

00:37:22.000 different stages of

00:37:22.960 human life there are

00:37:23.880 different stages of

00:37:25.240 an organism's development

00:37:26.980 in the same way that

00:37:28.860 an infant is not an

00:37:31.640 adult it's still a

00:37:32.520 human being but we

00:37:33.560 call an infant a

00:37:34.480 child in the same

00:37:35.320 way that we call a

00:37:36.220 fetus a baby it's

00:37:37.420 just a different stage

00:37:38.740 of human development

00:37:39.960 just so the ambiguity

00:37:41.320 that's being highlighted

00:37:42.220 just because a person

00:37:43.520 is less developed does

00:37:45.340 not mean that they are

00:37:46.600 not as much of a human

00:37:47.800 as someone who is more

00:37:49.320 developed that's

00:37:49.980 basically your argument

00:37:51.120 and again my argument

00:37:52.340 is that it's not a

00:37:53.140 human at all it's not

00:37:54.940 there's no science

00:37:55.900 backing that I'm telling

00:37:56.940 you dude there's no

00:37:57.800 there is no science

00:37:58.540 backing your perspective

00:37:59.600 either this is no

00:38:00.860 there isn't there is

00:38:01.940 cite it cite it man

00:38:03.480 cite your science man

00:38:05.020 cite it because every

00:38:07.080 piece of embryology

00:38:08.360 no question is not

00:38:09.620 you can't just say

00:38:10.200 every piece of

00:38:11.040 embryology you don't

00:38:12.260 have any science to

00:38:13.340 back your perspective

00:38:14.020 the question is not

00:38:15.680 when human life begins

00:38:18.400 that is yes it is

00:38:19.800 that is the precise

00:38:20.860 question personhood

00:38:22.160 for pastors for

00:38:23.100 theologians it is about

00:38:24.460 when life begins that

00:38:25.640 is the question I'm

00:38:26.560 interested in you're

00:38:27.280 avoiding that because

00:38:28.640 you want to be pro

00:38:30.400 choice because you

00:38:31.540 want to be I don't

00:38:32.440 want to be pro

00:38:33.400 choice I didn't start

00:38:34.460 off saying I want to

00:38:35.280 be pro choice I

00:38:36.300 started off studying

00:38:37.080 my tradition studying

00:38:37.920 scripture talking to

00:38:38.900 women in my

00:38:39.320 congregation and I

00:38:40.440 arrived at this

00:38:41.400 conclusion because of

00:38:42.320 the science because of

00:38:43.200 my own philosophical

00:38:43.940 reasoning and

00:38:44.580 theological reasoning

00:38:45.380 this is what I

00:38:46.320 believe is the right

00:38:47.060 thing for our

00:38:47.600 country this is what I

00:38:48.620 believe based on all

00:38:49.480 the evidence I've

00:38:50.280 seen and read this is

00:38:51.520 the perspective I

00:38:52.360 believe most helps the

00:38:53.540 most people in our

00:38:54.420 country that protects

00:38:55.540 the rights of women

00:38:56.380 and that's where I'm

00:38:58.140 going to stand okay

00:38:59.980 well I don't know if

00:39:01.700 I'm going to be able

00:39:02.380 to change your

00:39:03.060 position I still think

00:39:04.120 that your position is

00:39:04.980 extremely is extremely

00:39:07.640 arbitrary especially

00:39:08.880 like I believe that

00:39:09.800 it's conception but of

00:39:11.020 course there are people

00:39:11.740 who believe okay well

00:39:12.700 it's when the heart

00:39:13.400 beats and that's about

00:39:14.280 18 days after

00:39:15.360 conception there are

00:39:16.540 some people believe

00:39:17.260 that there it's when

00:39:18.360 there's brain waves

00:39:19.340 which is about six

00:39:20.060 weeks and two days

00:39:20.840 after conception

00:39:21.540 there's independent

00:39:22.220 all arbitrary

00:39:23.020 eight to ten yes

00:39:24.300 exactly exactly

00:39:25.740 oh you make such a

00:39:26.740 good point it is all

00:39:28.300 completely arbitrary

00:39:29.480 unless you start when

00:39:31.540 life actually begins

00:39:32.580 with viability

00:39:32.780 no unless you start

00:39:34.040 at conception but not

00:39:34.920 all babies are viable

00:39:35.820 at 24 weeks

00:39:36.800 see so it's arbitrary

00:39:38.340 unless you start when

00:39:39.720 life actually begins

00:39:40.920 which is conception

00:39:42.100 that's when we have

00:39:42.660 separate DNA

00:39:43.580 distinct DNA

00:39:45.020 that is when by the

00:39:46.300 way gender is decided

00:39:47.840 xx or xy at the

00:39:49.960 moment of

00:39:50.740 that's sex not gender

00:39:51.460 but we can have another

00:39:52.360 conversation about that

00:39:53.240 can i just say one

00:39:55.940 thing before before

00:39:57.100 this comes to an end

00:39:57.840 i think the one thing

00:39:59.240 that i am most

00:39:59.840 passionate about as a

00:40:00.760 follower of jesus christ

00:40:01.700 is that we need to be

00:40:02.640 able to have the ability

00:40:03.640 to have these

00:40:04.140 conversations without

00:40:05.100 demonizing the other

00:40:06.080 side and since posting

00:40:08.020 my tiktok video on your

00:40:09.300 feed asking for

00:40:09.980 interviews yesterday

00:40:10.760 the vitriol from your

00:40:13.340 side and i acknowledge

00:40:14.240 there's vitriol on my

00:40:15.120 side has been non-stop

00:40:16.760 this is not the way we're

00:40:18.300 going to move forward on

00:40:19.040 this conversation

00:40:19.740 demonizing each other is

00:40:21.000 not the way we're going

00:40:21.640 to move forward on this

00:40:22.360 conversation people on

00:40:23.860 my side aren't supporting

00:40:25.060 uh being pro-choice

00:40:26.380 because we hate babies

00:40:27.760 and we that's all that's

00:40:29.880 demonizing that's untrue

00:40:31.080 and we need to be able to

00:40:32.940 have reasonable rational

00:40:34.040 conversations not emotional

00:40:35.600 conversations about this

00:40:37.000 and then perhaps we can

00:40:38.440 change each other's hearts

00:40:39.280 and minds then perhaps we

00:40:40.320 can actually make progress

00:40:41.240 in this country and i think

00:40:42.740 the demonization that takes

00:40:43.760 place again on both sides

00:40:45.480 is completely unhelpful and

00:40:47.120 is preventing our nation

00:40:48.600 from leaning in to the best

00:40:50.780 values that we have and

00:40:52.340 actually making progress

00:40:53.540 in whatever direction on

00:40:55.000 these policies now i would

00:40:56.740 agree with you there and i

00:40:57.860 do and i just want to tell

00:40:59.180 anyone who is listening to

00:41:00.120 this watching this i'm

00:41:01.040 looking at you youtube

00:41:01.980 commenters because youtube

00:41:03.420 is a totally different

00:41:04.580 field it seems like that

00:41:06.760 there should absolutely be

00:41:08.080 no hate there can be

00:41:09.100 passionate disagreement

00:41:10.020 which i think is a great

00:41:11.060 thing but any kind of

00:41:12.160 personal attacks is wrong

00:41:13.460 and never something that i

00:41:14.940 would support yes i do see

00:41:17.720 a lot and i know we have

00:41:18.600 our own perspectives and

00:41:19.520 bias of course from my

00:41:20.960 perspective i see like the

00:41:23.000 vitriol and just threats to

00:41:24.520 people's lives coming from

00:41:26.180 the pro-choice side when i

00:41:27.680 posted the other day that

00:41:29.000 the person who leaked the

00:41:30.320 roe v wade decision that

00:41:32.260 they want to see the lives of

00:41:35.260 conservative justices being

00:41:37.040 threatened and their

00:41:37.660 children because that's

00:41:38.320 what's going to happen what

00:41:39.500 i got from blue checkmark

00:41:40.740 journalists journalists

00:41:42.340 were saying good they

00:41:43.960 shouldn't have made this

00:41:44.560 decision then they

00:41:45.240 shouldn't have done it

00:41:45.800 good i'm not saying

00:41:46.920 there's no vitriol on the

00:41:48.200 anti-abortion side but

00:41:49.540 man like you're talking

00:41:51.540 about demonization i am

00:41:52.760 talking i am looking at

00:41:53.680 threats to people's lives

00:41:54.980 because they are pro-life

00:41:56.340 that i agree with you

00:41:57.500 that's a problem that's

00:41:58.480 indefensible and i've got

00:41:59.760 many tweets over the past

00:42:00.740 day that says my mom

00:42:01.620 should have aborted me

00:42:02.420 because of my perspective

00:42:03.460 it's terrible yes so it's

00:42:05.300 we need to stop that we

00:42:06.420 need to be able to have a

00:42:07.320 reasonable conversation and

00:42:08.680 i do appreciate you

00:42:10.240 willing to dialogue across

00:42:11.400 the divide about this so

00:42:12.800 thank you well for the

00:42:13.700 record i am glad that you

00:42:15.200 are here and i'm glad

00:42:16.940 that your mom um chose

00:42:19.500 life i am glad that you

00:42:21.460 are a person made in the

00:42:22.380 image of god who i believe

00:42:24.380 and as much as we disagree

00:42:25.660 on theology and on the

00:42:27.540 gospel um you know i

00:42:29.360 believe that jesus died

00:42:31.940 for our sins and by grace

00:42:33.640 through faith we can be

00:42:34.620 made alive through him

00:42:35.980 and um gosh i really do

00:42:38.300 hope and pray that he

00:42:39.060 changes your heart and

00:42:40.120 your mind on this maybe

00:42:42.020 not but maybe we can have

00:42:43.180 another conversation in the

00:42:44.300 future about some more

00:42:45.260 fundamental disagreements

00:42:46.300 that we have because i

00:42:47.560 enjoyed it well likewise

00:42:49.360 again thank you thank you

00:42:50.680 and i'm grateful for the

00:42:51.800 opportunity thanks very

00:42:53.100 much have a good day you

00:42:54.780 too peace

00:42:55.440 all right guys i told you

00:43:01.600 it was going to be a fiery

00:43:03.120 a fiery conversation um

00:43:05.880 again i appreciate him

00:43:07.220 coming on and i hope that

00:43:08.380 you appreciated that

00:43:09.040 conversation maybe i'll have

00:43:10.220 him back we've got some

00:43:11.120 very fundamental disagreements

00:43:12.640 about the bible for example

00:43:14.340 he doesn't believe that the

00:43:15.260 bible is the word of god i

00:43:17.300 would say that that is a

00:43:18.080 very fundamental disagreement

00:43:19.620 that we have um and so it

00:43:22.480 would be really interesting

00:43:23.120 to have him back on as i said

00:43:25.160 in the beginning it's rare to

00:43:26.200 have a progressive willing to

00:43:27.840 debate these issues uh with a

00:43:29.640 conservative and so maybe this

00:43:31.440 can be some kind of series that

00:43:32.920 we have um and i appreciate you

00:43:35.180 guys listening as well um i just

00:43:38.000 kind of want to reiterate

00:43:38.900 because you know i wasn't

00:43:40.140 expecting that we would kind

00:43:41.200 of get stuck on the when

00:43:42.660 life begins i kind of just

00:43:44.340 he has made the argument in

00:43:45.860 the past that god has given

00:43:48.040 people autonomy women autonomy

00:43:50.340 over their bodies and that that

00:43:51.880 is sacred and they get to

00:43:53.000 decide what to do with their

00:43:54.580 bodies and so i kind of thought

00:43:55.800 we would get more into that and

00:43:57.320 we didn't what i would say to

00:43:59.040 that argument is that your

00:44:00.260 autonomy your liberty your

00:44:02.200 rights your choices end where

00:44:04.440 another person's right to life

00:44:06.700 begins and so there are a lot of

00:44:08.460 things that you have autonomy

00:44:09.500 over as a human being there are

00:44:11.080 a lot of things that you can

00:44:11.960 do with your body you can do

00:44:13.160 anything with your body but you

00:44:14.220 can't use your body to punch me

00:44:15.440 that's assault and you will get

00:44:16.940 in trouble because of that and

00:44:18.000 so we understand this principle

00:44:19.420 that your autonomy has limits

00:44:22.280 depending on how it infringes

00:44:24.400 upon the rights not just the

00:44:25.660 desires but the rights of

00:44:28.200 someone else um and so we

00:44:30.680 didn't get into that argument

00:44:31.720 but that's what i would say to

00:44:34.020 that again once again it's that

00:44:35.400 principle of bringing it back to

00:44:37.100 the humanity of the life of the

00:44:38.720 child and reminding people what

00:44:40.720 abortion actually is and by the

00:44:43.620 way again open an embryology

00:44:46.100 textbook you will find when human

00:44:49.220 life begins i personally still

00:44:51.200 think he is confused about what the

00:44:52.740 debate is actually over the debate

00:44:54.420 is over personhood um that's a

00:44:57.640 philosophical debate not a

00:44:59.580 scientific debate over when

00:45:01.380 humanity begins and as you saw he

00:45:03.320 was unable or unwilling to answer

00:45:05.580 that um as appreciative as i am

00:45:09.140 of his uh willingness to at least

00:45:12.100 try and talk to me about it um i do

00:45:14.940 just want to end i thought john

00:45:16.200 piper has given really good just a

00:45:19.520 ten solid reasons why abortion is

00:45:22.160 wrong and um i appreciate his insight

00:45:25.240 into a lot of these subjects in

00:45:27.120 particular um abortion um so ten

00:45:30.460 reasons why it is wrong to take the

00:45:31.840 life of unborn children number one

00:45:33.480 god commanded thou shalt not murder

00:45:35.160 exodus 2013 to the destruction of

00:45:37.740 conceived human life whether

00:45:38.920 embryonic fetal or viable is an

00:45:40.720 assault on the unique person forming

00:45:42.360 work of god three aborting unborn

00:45:44.780 humans falls under the repeated

00:45:46.600 biblical ban against shedding

00:45:48.060 innocent blood and i didn't see a

00:45:50.380 reference there but i did write it

00:45:52.260 down um and the command that he is

00:45:55.840 talking about there is jeremiah

00:45:57.420 22 16 through 17 but you have eyes

00:46:01.160 and heart only for your dishonest

00:46:03.040 gain god is judging judah here for

00:46:05.360 shedding innocent blood and for

00:46:06.980 practicing oppression and violence and

00:46:10.360 so this absolutely goes under the

00:46:12.200 category of oppression and violence

00:46:13.760 the bible frequently expresses the high

00:46:17.240 priority number four god puts on the

00:46:19.640 protection and provision and

00:46:20.680 vindication of the weakest and most

00:46:22.080 helpless and most victimized members of

00:46:24.180 the community certainly the most

00:46:26.080 helpless members of our community are

00:46:28.640 these babies inside the womb and i also

00:46:30.860 wanted to get into with brandon what an

00:46:33.140 abortion procedure at 20 weeks 21 weeks

00:46:36.240 pre-viability 22 weeks um what that

00:46:39.360 entails and how violent it is and how

00:46:41.300 that squirming moving baby is brutally

00:46:44.940 killed at that point in gestation i mean

00:46:47.320 there's just no question of whether or not

00:46:50.920 this is evil um number five john piper says

00:46:55.200 by judging difficult and even tragic

00:46:56.900 human life as a worse evil than taking

00:46:59.400 life abortion is contradict the

00:47:01.720 widespread biblical teaching that god

00:47:03.380 loves to show his gracious power through

00:47:05.680 suffering and not just by helping people

00:47:08.620 avoid suffering so he is speaking to that

00:47:10.900 point that you often hear on the pro-choice

00:47:13.260 sidewall that their life might be hard or

00:47:15.300 that they might be unwanted or they might

00:47:17.000 end up in foster care or they might be poor

00:47:19.560 or whatever justification that they give

00:47:22.200 and he is saying that avoiding suffering in

00:47:24.820 life is um is not the goal it's not the

00:47:29.120 goal and it's not a justification for

00:47:30.520 killing someone and he points out that

00:47:32.420 god's mercy can work through a person's

00:47:35.100 hardship and suffering it's not an excuse

00:47:36.900 to kill someone number six this goes along

00:47:39.920 with that it is a sin of presumption john

00:47:42.300 piper says to justify abortion by taking

00:47:44.240 comfort in the fact that all these little

00:47:46.480 children will go to heaven or even be given

00:47:48.500 full adult life in the resurrection that's

00:47:50.440 also what you hear that these souls are

00:47:52.180 just going back to god so what's the

00:47:53.600 problem with it well you could argue then

00:47:55.520 then why don't you just murder everyone

00:47:58.020 who is um that would be the justification

00:48:01.320 for murdering anyone who you believe is

00:48:03.780 going to heaven outside of the womb too so

00:48:05.840 that doesn't really hold up number seven

00:48:07.700 john piper says the bible commands us to

00:48:09.500 rescue our neighbor who is being uh unjustly

00:48:12.820 led away to death number eight aborning

00:48:15.200 unborn children falls under jesus's rebuke of

00:48:17.420 those who spurn children is inconvenient and

00:48:19.380 unworthy of the savior's attention he is

00:48:21.400 referring to matthew 19 there and i can

00:48:24.740 and i can read that passage um then children

00:48:28.880 were brought to him jesus that he might lay

00:48:31.000 his hands on them and pray the disciples

00:48:32.720 rebuked the people but jesus said let the

00:48:34.860 little children come to me and do not

00:48:36.880 hinder them for to such belongs the kingdom

00:48:39.400 of heaven and he laid his hands on them

00:48:41.600 and went away um number nine it is the right

00:48:46.200 of god the maker to give and to take human

00:48:48.640 life it is not our individual right to make

00:48:51.260 this choice now i would say that there's a

00:48:54.440 caveat here for the justification of the

00:48:56.820 death penalty in cases of murder but i am

00:48:59.020 supposing probably the john piper is talking

00:49:01.500 about innocent life here number 10 finally

00:49:04.540 saving faith in jesus christ brings forgiveness

00:49:06.740 of sins and cleansing of conscience and help

00:49:08.760 through life and hope for eternity surrounded by

00:49:11.140 such omnipotent love every follower of jesus

00:49:13.260 is free from the greed and fear that might

00:49:15.220 lure a person to forsake these truths in

00:49:17.400 order to gain money or avoid reproach so i

00:49:20.620 think those are 10 really good reasons

00:49:22.160 there's probably a hundred more but it all

00:49:24.520 comes down to the fact that human beings

00:49:26.420 from conception onward are made in the image

00:49:28.440 of god and therefore it is murder and

00:49:30.620 therefore a sin to murder them and if there

00:49:34.280 is anything if there is anything that a

00:49:37.300 government should do if there is any job that

00:49:39.560 a government has even the most limited

00:49:41.360 libertarian government it is to protect the

00:49:45.160 the innocent person it is to protect the

00:49:48.560 innocent human being it is to protect their

00:49:50.760 right the most fundamental right not to be

00:49:53.440 murdered inside the womb so i'm proud of

00:49:56.500 you guys again i just want to reiterate that

00:49:58.300 keep on being bold courage begets courage

00:50:01.260 politics matter because people matter

00:50:03.360 raise a respectful ruckus this is your this

00:50:06.960 is the hill like if you want one hill of

00:50:09.420 course in addition to the hill the gospel if

00:50:12.320 you want one hill to fight on let this be

00:50:14.600 it's a matter of life and death you're doing

00:50:16.640 good work keep being bold keep being

00:50:18.760 courageous keep being obedient um we will be

00:50:22.620 back here on on monday who the heck knows what

00:50:25.140 we're going to end up talking about we have

00:50:26.760 rearranged a lot of stuff this week to

00:50:28.280 continue talking about this important subject

00:50:30.100 and i truly thank god for the opportunities

00:50:32.340 that i've had over the past couple of weeks

00:50:34.780 to talk about um to talk about this i have

00:50:38.100 thankfully i've had three media interviews and

00:50:40.440 i had a speech that i gave just yesterday and i

00:50:42.960 got to talk about this in every single

00:50:44.760 situation and i'm just and on here of course

00:50:47.420 and i'm just thankful for the platform i'm

00:50:49.240 thankful for the ability to talk about it and

00:50:52.320 i just praise the lord for not just giving me a

00:50:55.740 voice but giving all of you a voice too we're in

00:50:58.160 together and i am so glad to partner with you

00:51:01.080 in trying to protect the most vulnerable our

00:51:03.140 fight is worth it and expect pushback but the

00:51:06.700 pushback is worth it too so thank you guys so

00:51:08.800 much for listening for being here we will be

00:51:11.080 back here on monday

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - May 05, 2022

Ep 612 ｜ DEBATE： Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice Christian ｜ Guest： Brandan Robertson

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