Ep 625 ｜ The Church of England, Academia, & Meghan Markle： The UK's Progressive Problem ｜ Guest： Calvin Robinson
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Summary
Calvin Robinson is a British political commentator, a journalist, a policy advisor, and a senior fellow at the Research Institute Policy Exchange. He was rejected for a position within the Church of England because of his conservative views on institutional racism in the UK.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode is brought to you by Good Ranchers.
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Go to GoodRanchers.com slash Allie for American meat delivered right to your front door. That's
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GoodRanchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I am super excited for you to hear this interview
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today with our new friend Calvin Robinson. He is a British political commentator. He's a
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journalist. He's a policy advisor. And he is also the senior fellow at the Research Institute
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Policy Exchange. The reason I wanted to talk to him today is because he was rejected for a position
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within the Church of England because of his politics, specifically because of something
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that he said about institutional racism in the UK and really denying its existence. And so I thought
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it would be interesting just to hear his story, why he is a conservative both politically and
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theologically. We ended up getting into a lot of stuff that I didn't realize we were going to get
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into. COVID policy. We talked a little bit about the difference in gun policy in the United States
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versus the UK. We talked about what the Bible says about marriage, about women being ordained,
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why he does not believe in his words that racism is lurking around every corner in the UK. He's a
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fascinating person. So insightful. Of course, he's got that wonderful British accent. And so he just
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sounds more sophisticated just because of that. We are also going to end the conversation with a
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little fun bit. We're going to talk about the Platinum Jubilee, of course, that's celebrating the
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Queen and her 70-year reign. And I'm going to ask him what he thinks about Meghan Markle and Harry.
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You might be able to predict a little bit about his opinion, but it's really fun. So you're just
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going to love this conversation. You're going to learn a lot. And I enjoyed so much talking to him.
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I really hope that we get to have him back. Mr. Robinson, thank you so much for taking the time
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to join us today. For those who may be unfamiliar, can you tell us who you are and what you do?
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I love that question because I never know how to answer it, but thank you for inviting me.
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I have just finished studying theology in Oxford, so I was an ordinand. Before that,
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I was a teacher and a deputy headteacher and a school governor. I come from an educational
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background, but I also do political commentating. I'm a TV presenter on GB News. I talk about faith,
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So before we get into what happened with you and the Church of England, which is primarily
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why I wanted to have you on today, you said that you come from the world of education,
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and yet you describe yourself as a conservative, correct?
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Yes. How did that happen? Tell us a little bit about that.
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Well, I got into education by accident. I was actually in industry, making money and living
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the high life before. And I got to a point in my life where I wanted to do something more rewarding,
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more fulfilling. I wanted to give something back. And I got into teaching because I was a computer
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programmer, a computer scientist, and I thought this is an area that we need more teachers in.
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I could make a difference to it. And I did for a while. I loved it. But I did soon find out that
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it's no place for conservatives. And this was, you know, this was bewildering to me coming from
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industry where you're sitting next to lefties, righties, centrists, like it doesn't matter your
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politics, you just get along and you know, you work together, you drink together. But in education,
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it was very much an echo chamber. It was a hive mind of groupthink mentality. It was quite actually
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disturbing. In fact, this is how I became a conservative commentator, because I started
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writing about the left wing indoctrination that I was seeing in schools. And I stuck my name to it
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because there are a lot of people that call themselves the secret teacher and the secret
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blogger. And I was like, no, I own this opinion, because what I'm seeing is wicked. And parents need
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No, I suppose I started out more liberal, at least libertarian, the classical liberal,
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not the new modern liberal that are actually illiberal and intolerant. But I think the older
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I get, the more conservative I get. I suppose that's the case in many people's lives, when
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you actually when you're invested in your community, when you're invested in whether it's property
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or paying taxes, or you know, when when money comes into it, people tend to lean more rights.
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But also socially, I think, as we're seeing our way of life, the Western way of life be
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rapidly destroyed, it feels like the fall of Rome. I think people are leaning more rights
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because they want to protect what's important to us.
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I know that we here in the States are very familiar with the liberal indoctrination and
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the groupthink and really the witch hunts that you kind of described is happening there. It's
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also happening, of course, here in academia. Could you talk a little bit more about that,
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about that experience, what you started writing about, what you recorded seeing in academia
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there? And what was the response to your observations?
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Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, first of all, it started during a general election that we had
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over here, voting for our government of power. And in the staff room, in the common room,
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teachers will say, so who are you voting for? And I honestly didn't realize that this was a
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rhetorical question that you're supposed to say the Labour Party, which is, of course,
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the left-wing party. And when was this? When was this?
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This would have been 2015. So this was before the Brexit referendum, before Donald Trump,
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before all of that, before politics went absolutely crazy. But I said, you know,
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I'm voting for the Conservatives. And draws literally dropped. People were astounded by this.
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They couldn't believe it. But you don't hate children. Well, how would you vote for the
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Yes. But from then on, any time the Conservative government implemented any policy that they didn't
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like, it was my personal fault. You know, they come up to me and blame me for the situation. I don't
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believe in all the policies that the Conservatives are putting forward, mostly because they're not
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conservative enough. But, you know, I'm not in government. It's not my fault.
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Right. And so that's kind of how this, that's how it all started. It was, were you surprised by
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their surprised reaction to you? Oh, absolutely. Because as I say, working in industry, I'm
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surrounded by true diversity, diversity of thoughts and opinion of, and of politics. In
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education, that's not the case. You know, we've seen from the polls that between 70 to 80% of
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teachers vote for left-leaning parties, and a similar number of teachers voted for a main in
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the Brexit referendum. And this, this is another thing that I saw, you know, after the referendum,
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the day actually, that the results came out of the referendum, I was pulled aside in my school,
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because I was still teaching, pulled aside, and the executive headmaster, you know, the
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principal of the school said to me, Calvin, we're aware about your thoughts on Brexit, but
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please don't mention them in school. And my initial response is, well, of course not, because
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I'm here to teach kids programming. I'm not, I don't see how Brexit would come up. But fair
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enough, I won't mention it. But going around the school the rest of that day, I understood
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very quickly that I was the only person that said that to, because all the Ramona teachers,
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all the remain voting teachers were saying, oh, it's so awful. Oh, it's,
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you know, and we love our European friends and, and thinking it's an anti European thing,
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when of course, it was an anti federalist thing. But also saying, oh, I know, we're going to see
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the same situation in America. We're seeing the same thing with Donald Trump. It's like this
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natural assumption that Brexit is bad. Donald Trump is bad. Anything slightly right or centre
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is not just wrong, but bad. But they were allowed to say it. They were allowed to express those thoughts
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and opinions to the young kids, to the children. And this is why we have a whole generation
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Hmm. Yes. And I'm finding myself having more questions than I thought that I would about
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this segment of your story. So I do want to get into everything that happened with the Church of
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England. But I'm just curious, as a conservative in the UK, I mean, I, I remember when Boris Johnson
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was elected, and it was kind of seeing that, oh, what's happening in America with Trump is also
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happening in the UK. But from my understanding and observation of commentators like you, Boris Johnson has
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kind of been a disappointment to the Conservatives, correct?
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Well, yeah, somewhat. I mean, we mostly voted him to get Brexit done. And he did get Brexit done.
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But since then, I think his response to COVID was atrocious. But his, in his gut reaction was spot
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on. You know, he is, well, I thought he was a libertarian. So I thought he'd be protecting our
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civil liberties. And he'd let us get on with our lives and give us advice as a government, but not
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dictate our lives. Unfortunately, he capitulated and went down the same route as all other Western
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governments and took away our civil liberties. You know, in this country, an Englishman's home
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is his castle. No one in the law or otherwise should have any right to say who you invite into
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your own home. But we did get to that stage where you were dictated to on how many people were allowed
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in your house, who they were, whether you were allowed to touch them, whether you could hug a loved
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one or not. These were all in government guidance and regulations, way overstepping the mark. So he's
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disappointed me on that regard. But we found out through leaks that his initial response was to be
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the mayor from Jaws, you know, just open up a beach and let people get on with it. I think that might
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have been a better situation because locking down the country has actually resulted in more deaths
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through undiagnosed cancer, through mental health crises and suicide rates. But also, of course,
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So why do you think that he denied his own instincts on that? Do you think it was because
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he was just afraid of the constituency? Does it have anything to do with I know some people have
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talked about him being buddy buddy with the World Economic Forum, like a lot of our leaders here and
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just being afraid of what the WHO would say? Or do you just think it's just, you know, sheer politics?
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He just thought it politically would be more advantageous for him to be a little bit more restrictive.
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I think at first it was a scary situation. He didn't know what to do. And he is a politician
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that takes advice on board. Unfortunately, quite, you know, too often, we often hear that Boris Johnson
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goes with whoever's the last person to speak to him. But, you know, the problem here is that after
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he did that initial lockdown, he doubled down on it because then it became political. He didn't want
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to be seen to have made a mistake. So, of course, we had more lockdowns. And then we had the same
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situation with the vaccines like this was seen as our way out, whether they worked or not,
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whether they were good for kids or not. We've seen them being pushed down our throats because
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this is the political answer rather than the right answer.
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Do you think that the same phenomenon happened in the UK as it did in the US and that some
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more moderate and even liberal people realized because of the restrictions that came with the
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lockdowns that came with COVID, that the government really isn't your friend and that maybe giving
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over all of your rights to the government isn't a great idea? Like, did you see that kind of shift
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happening in people who don't necessarily consider themselves conservative?
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I wish. I saw the opposite. It goes along with the old saying, doesn't it? You know,
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the scariest words to ever hear are, we are the government and we're here to help you. But actually,
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I thought this was a country built on freedom, built on liberty, much like America. But I found
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out that it's not. And most people care more about safetyism than they do their own liberties. And
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people would happily give away more freedoms in order to feel safe, whether it was truly making
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them safe or not. They were happy for that feeling. And part of this is down to project fear. You know,
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our government enforced a lot of poor draconian regulations, but also it's the propaganda that
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went along with them. You know, we had official government slogans saying, don't kill granny,
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for example. How horrible is that? To tell a young child that by hugging their grandparents,
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by showing love and compassion to their family, that they are potentially going to kill them.
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And the problem with all of this is that the propaganda worked and it's so difficult to reverse.
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You know, people know now, well, they knew then, I suppose, that mosques don't really work. They
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don't really do anything for aerosol virus. However, we still see people walking around
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with them on because they're afraid. People are terrified for their lives.
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People are terrified. And also, as you said, it's propaganda and it's moral extortion
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in the form of propaganda, because if you believe and have been told and just have it ingrained in
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your mind that you are a good, caring person, a good Christian, even, we saw a lot of that
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propaganda here that you're really loving your neighbor if you wear a cloth mask or if you don't go
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see your grandmother who has been isolated in the nursing home for the past six months,
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that's you being a good person. People are still attached to that outward signal of virtue. And if
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that becomes a form of your identity or that becomes a form of what you think is morality and
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expression of virtue, that is very hard to let go of. It's very hard to let go of such a deeply
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ingrained idea. But even more than that, it's hard to let go of an identity that you have put on of
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being the good America, the good American, the responsible and scientific citizen. I think
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that's part of it, too, that people have just gotten so wrapped up in what they think the
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COVID restrictions represent as far as someone's morality goes.
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A hundred percent. But it's not about being a good person, really, is it? It's about being seen
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to be a good person. It's much harder to actually do good. This is why virtue signaling is so
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popular, because it's far easier to look like a good person than it is to be a good person.
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And I think you're right in that the Christian angle of this was really used and abused,
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actually. We have the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is, of course, the primate of the Anglican
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communion, saying that, well, effectively moralizing the vaccine, suggesting that to be a good Christian,
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you have to love your neighbor. And therefore, in order to love your neighbor, you have to take
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a vaccine that doesn't actually protect your neighbor. You know, the whole purpose of it was
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apparently to protect you, even though it doesn't actually do that either. But just using the faith
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as a political weapon, that is wicked. You know, we saw churches and cathedrals say you could only
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enter if you could prove your vaccine status. Jesus Christ mingled with the lepers. And people
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with COVID are just people carrying a cold or a flu, for goodness sake. They're not even as bad as
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lepers. So, of course, Jesus wouldn't close God's house to people. But the church did. And it went
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further than that. You know, the government suggested that non-essential businesses had
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to close for the lockdowns. The churches went above and beyond and closed the churches too,
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even though the government didn't recommend that at first. And not only did they close the churches
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to the people, the faithful masses, the congregations, they closed the churches to the
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priests. They said, you can no longer go in your parish church and pray for your parishioners.
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Wow, that is wicked. And that's a perfect transition into what I originally wanted to
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talk to you about today, because you have seen the consequences. You have experienced the
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consequences of the politicization of the Church of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury,
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if I am understanding correctly. Now, here in the United States, especially we Protestants here
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in the United States, we don't totally understand kind of the governing structure of the church in
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England. So if you could just take us kind of from the beginning, I know that you just said that you
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studied theology at the University of Oxford. And from what I understand, you were looking for a
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particular position in the Church of England, and you were denied that because of your politics,
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because of specifically, I think, things that you have said about institutional racism
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in the UK. So can you just start us from the beginning? Talk to us in layman's terms as
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Protestants in the United States, you don't know anything about the structure of the Church of
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I'll try. This is the greatest shame about the formational training that I've received in that
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they don't just teach you theology, they teach you a whole new language, and then you get wrapped up
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in it, and you get caught in a churchy bubble, and you say a load of words that don't actually mean
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anything. So I'll try and break it down to normal language.
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So towards the end of your church, so I was doing two years at Oxford. And at the end of
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your first year, you tend to be assigned a parish, a church that you will work in as
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an assistant priest, we call it a curate, once you leave. So you have to have it kind of lined
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up before you start your second year or your final year. And I did. So I was assigned by my
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bishop a parish, I met the priest there, we built a good relationship, I've been to services
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there and met some of the people. And we were looking forward to working together. I was looking
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forward to my curacy. And things went quiet for a while between my bishop and I. And I saw,
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I understood, so there's a hierarchy of bishops, and my bishop doesn't really have any jurisdictional
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power. Because my bishop is what's called a flying bishop. He's responsible for traditionalists
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within the Church of England. So people like myself who don't believe in the ordination of
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women, don't believe in that the church should head towards homosexual marriage, people who believe
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in Christian teaching, essentially, and believe in the faith that was handed down to us from Christ
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through the apostles in the Bible. But there is provision available for traditionalists within
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the Church of England. And my bishop, although he is responsible for me, has no direct power.
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His boss is the Bishop of London, who is a lady bishop. And she took issue with my politics. And I knew
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this because obviously, you know, I'm a political commentator, I'm quite outspoken. But I try to at
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least centre all of my positions around my faith. So I try to be a good Christian. And of course,
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being a good Christian means that we understand that we're all fallen, none of us are perfect. So
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we do make mistakes every now and then. So I would have appreciated some charity. But what I quickly
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came to learn is that the Bishop of London did not want me in her diocese in her area in London,
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she didn't want me ordained in London, even if it wasn't by her. And I had a chat with my bishop,
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the Bishop of Fulham. And I said, you know, what's happening with my curacy? You know, I thought it
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would have been announced by now. And he said, no, we've had to delay the announcement. And I
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eventually got out of him. He said, the Bishop of London does not want you ordained in her diocese,
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but I'm going to tell her the next time I see her that if she wants to, I'm not going to do her dirty
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work. If she wants you gone, she's going to have to do it herself. And then I heard nothing for weeks.
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And then it became months. And I chased up my bishop again and said, can we have a chat? And we had a chat.
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And he said, look, it's not going to work. It's going to be too turbulent. Too many people will
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complain about you and what you say in public. And I was taken aback, but I was willing to work
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through it. I said, okay, so if people are complaining about me, if it's too turbulent,
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show me the complaints. I'll pray on them. I'll discern on them. And I improve. I'm not trying
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to cause offense. I'm trying to proclaim the truth. And that can be divisive at times. I get that.
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Um, but he said, no, we can't share the complaints with you. So I'm stuck in a rut here. I'm like,
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you know, my curacy has been canceled or taken away or indefinitely postponed because of complaints,
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but I'm not allowed to see them. So I don't know what to do. So I sent a subject access request. So
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this is like freedom of information requests, but for personal information. And by UK law,
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any organization that holds your personal data, now that could just be your name,
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your date of birth, your telephone number, it doesn't have to be really intimate, but anyone
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who processes or holds your data has to share it with you if you request it.
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So I put one of these into the church and then it was like Watergate, because I found out that
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actually there'd only been less than a handful of complaints about me. And for someone with,
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you know, I've got quite a significant following on social media and I'm on national broadcasts.
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I expected quite a lot more, to be honest. I was a little bit disappointed,
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but I had less than a handful and they were silly. You know, Calvin Robinson went on TV
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last week and said that men need to be more masculine. Yes. Yes, I did. Men do need to be
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more masculine. We have a massive issue with fatherlessness. We have a massive issue with
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men not taking responsibility. And this is why we have such high abortion rates. And this is why we
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have such high single parenthood rates. And this is why also we have so much crime and homelessness
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and mental health. And all of these, a lot of this revolves around men need to be more masculine and
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forget this whole toxic masculine argument because it's just making us more effeminate
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and it's the downfall of our society. But anyway, that's one of the complaints.
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But what I found actually, Ali, was that there were more complaints about me from within the church.
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And I noticed that there's one bishop who had been complaining about me consistently
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from before I started my training to the Bishop of London, but also to the Archbishop of Canterbury.
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So all the way up the top of the hierarchy, he'd been sending complaints saying, look at Calvin
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Robinson's tweet. And the issue that he had against me was that Calvin Robinson does not believe in
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institutional racism. And I did further. He said, Calvin Robinson does not think this country is
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institutionally racist. Therefore, we should keep a close eye on his ordination, i.e. we should not
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ordain this man because he doesn't fall in line with our politics. And you know, I don't think this
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country is institutionally racist. I think the United Kingdom is one of the best places in the world to
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live. I think we have equality of opportunity. We have equality under the law. If you work hard
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enough, you can achieve anything and you can reach the highest office just as you can in America.
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And I think that's something to celebrate and promote. And I'm sick and tired of people taking
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on board critical race theory and dividing us based on the color of our skin. And it's,
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you know, people like this Bishop are always, it's always the metropolitan liberal elite. It's always
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the white middle class with their guilt that are actually the racists first and foremost. And they
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accuse everyone else of being racist. They're projecting because it's that we want you to be a good
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little black man and take on board the opinions that we think good little black men should have. We don't
00:22:02.380
want you to form your own opinions. We don't want you to have your own politics. You should do as
00:22:05.420
you're saying. We'll pat you on the back and we'll give you, maybe we'll give you a little bit
00:22:08.620
of a promotion every now and then, but you know, and when the time's right and we don't want to
00:22:12.460
replace ourselves. And I was, I was outraged. So I spoke to, uh, I spoke to the Bishop of London
00:22:18.620
and I said, you know, I think it's quite divisive when you say that, uh, the church is institutionally
00:22:24.220
racist. Um, and she put her arm on me and she said, her hand on me, she said, but Calvin,
00:22:29.180
I can tell you as a white woman, the church is institutionally racist. And I realize she's
00:22:33.340
white for people, for people who are just listening to this, you are not white. She is white. And she
00:22:37.740
is correcting you, telling you that the church is institutionally racist. And I guess she has
00:22:42.620
some authority to do so. And you asked the question in an op ed, basically, why is it a problem? I'm
00:22:48.300
paraphrasing that you don't believe that racism is lurking around every corner. Why is that a problem?
00:22:55.500
Of all the things that you believe, like, I would actually think that your views on LGBTQ,
00:23:00.460
your views on women being ordained. Of course, I agree with you on both of those things. That's
00:23:05.980
considered very controversial, even here in the United States. So I imagine in the UK,
00:23:10.460
that I think is probably even more liberal, that that's very controversial. But it was this,
00:23:14.700
it was this, that as a black man, you are not allowed to argue with the existence of institutional
00:23:20.940
racism. Why do you think this was the sticking point? Because we're stuck in critical race
00:23:26.620
theory. It's everywhere. So the church put out a report called Lament to Action that claims that
00:23:31.740
the church is institutionally racist. It said it's deeply institutionally racist, and we should
00:23:36.940
apologize for our horrible past. And I tried to find evidence for this claim, but there was none.
00:23:43.500
The only evidence was the Archbishop of Canterbury claiming this. And then the church put out another
00:23:47.900
report claiming that the country is institutionally racist. So I tried to find evidence of that. And
00:23:52.940
it just pointed back to the previous report, which pointed back to the Archbishop of Canterbury
00:23:57.020
making a statement. You know, there is no first principles involved here. There's no actually
00:24:02.140
looking at the issues in order to find the problems so we can solve them. It's just this
00:24:07.180
self-flagellation. It's all built on white guilt. It's all from a very patronizing,
00:24:12.460
old-fashioned form of racism, actually. And the church put forward, you know, affirmative action.
00:24:17.900
It put forward what they call positive discrimination. Now, I don't think that any
00:24:21.260
discrimination is positive. But they've put measures in place now that every leadership
00:24:25.980
position in the church must have a shortlist, when it's advertised, of 30% what they call UK
00:24:34.380
minority ethnics, what you guys would know as BIPOC. Or over here, we usually use the term BAME.
00:24:40.220
All of these terms I find offensive because it just homogenizes all non-white people under one
00:24:46.220
bracket, as if we all think alike, vote alike, talk alike, and pray alike, which is, of course,
00:24:50.700
nonsense. That in itself is racist. But to suggest that 30% of all leadership positions must have a
00:24:57.100
shortlist of ethnic minorities. In a country that only has between 12 and 14% ethnic minorities,
00:25:04.060
and half of those are Muslims, I don't understand where the church thinks it's going to get these
00:25:11.980
It's just looking good. It's like, yeah, we want 30% of, yeah, we need more of you brown people.
00:25:17.980
It's one kind of diversity. Obviously, they don't want ideological diversity. They don't want theological
00:25:28.140
diversity. They don't want any other kind of diversity. They only want the kind of diversity
00:25:33.420
that you can see, which goes back to our conversation about virtue signaling, that they really only want
00:25:40.460
diversity of melanin. Here in the United States, they definitely, the left wing in this country,
00:25:45.820
certainly believe that there is going to be this coalition of non-white people who are going to
00:25:52.060
raise their fist for communism and overtake capitalism and what they see as the white supremacist
00:25:57.100
majority, whatever it is. But they are also being disappointed by the fact that demographic change
00:26:01.740
isn't necessarily equating to more Democratic voters. I mean, there are a lot of Hispanic voters
00:26:06.940
that are becoming more Republican. And so, as you said, just because you have a certain melanin count
00:26:14.780
or a certain nationality, that does not necessarily mean that you are going to be on the side of the
00:26:19.340
left. So that's going to be an interesting evolution over the next few years. But how is this particular
00:26:25.660
situation for you going to evolve? What's next? Is it done? Are you still trying to take this particular
00:26:33.260
position within the Church of England? Or are you just kind of saying, fine, you don't want me,
00:26:41.300
I'll answer that. But just to address your point a minute ago, we're seeing the same thing over here
00:26:45.000
as well, as you're seeing in the UK. The ethnic minorities are voting for the right wing parties.
00:26:48.960
And it's the white liberals on the left who are saying, no, because we don't want to be seen as
00:26:52.360
racist, we must vote for the left wing parties. They're not listening. Even though they're saying,
00:26:55.800
we need to listen to more ethnic minority voices, they're only listening to the ones that sound like
00:26:59.920
them. It's so sad. But what am I going to do next? I honestly don't think there's a place for me in the
00:27:06.920
Church of England. Even if they turned around to me tomorrow and said, look, okay, we'll take it
00:27:11.180
all back. We'll ordain you. I don't think in good conscience I could. If an organization sees itself
00:27:17.080
as racist institutionally, and the top three most powerful, influential people in that organization
00:27:22.500
happen to be white, middle class, and they're not doing anything about it, either they're complicit
00:27:28.180
in this structural racism, or they're incompetent. And they should step down and by their own ideology,
00:27:34.020
they should be replaced by ethnic minorities. So of course, it's just virtue signaling. Again,
00:27:38.100
they don't want to actually do anything about it. But I couldn't. So I've moved
00:27:42.120
to GAFCON, which I understand is a much bigger organizational
00:27:46.280
movement in the United States than it is here. But I'm hoping to provide
00:27:50.080
some momentum, because GAFCON is a group of Anglicans
00:27:53.900
around the world. You know, Anglicanism is massively
00:27:57.420
orthodox in Africa, on the African continent, for example.
00:28:00.640
It's Anglicans that have seen the way that the church is going, you know, very woke,
00:28:07.280
very liberal, progressive, and trying to essentially rewrite scripture in order to look
00:28:11.700
better by modern day standards. And that's not what the faith is about. So the GAFCON movement
00:28:16.220
says, no, we are adhering to the faith, adhering to the scriptures, and we're going to be orthodox
00:28:23.480
Anglicans. So I'm very happy to be joining that movement. And I'll be ordained in a few weeks,
00:28:31.320
That's great. I heard you say in an interview recently, which I just thought was a great way
00:28:35.100
to put it, that relevance is irrelevant when it comes to
00:28:38.620
theology, when it comes to the direction that the church should go. The people who were interviewing
00:28:42.640
you were kind of taken aback by that. Well, you want the church to
00:28:46.560
go back a thousand years. That's got to be a terrible thing. And you basically
00:28:50.880
said, no, that would be a great thing. We should be
00:28:54.560
staying steady because the scriptures haven't changed, right?
00:28:57.900
Yeah, absolutely. It's this idea that we need to chase social norms and liberal, progressive
00:29:03.420
views. That's counter to what we should be doing. Because I think the way that society
00:29:08.940
is changing is so rapid. People can't keep up. People who are celebrated one moment,
00:29:13.840
like J.K. Rowling, are cancelled the next because you can never be woke enough. And the movement
00:29:18.420
is evolving at a speed that normal people can't keep up with unless you're obsessed with the
00:29:23.080
movement itself. And the church, or the faith, should be a shining light in an ever-darkening
00:29:28.780
world. It should be counter-cultural. It should stand out and say, here is an alternative. If
00:29:33.520
you're sick of being lied to, if you're sick and tired of being told there are 99 genders
00:29:37.640
when you know there are two, if you're sick and tired of being told that you're an oppressor
00:29:41.960
or a racist because you're white, whether overtly or covertly, and you can't escape it because
00:29:47.040
it's the new original sin, or if you're sick and tired of being told that you're a victim
00:29:50.080
because you're black, even though you know you can succeed and you have made a life for
00:29:53.760
yourself, and you're sick and tired of all these lies being pushed down your throat all
00:29:57.100
the time, here is the truth. And the truth is in this book. It is the Bible. The truth
00:30:02.520
is Jesus Christ himself. And he teaches us how to live. He teaches us what's right and what's
00:30:07.040
wrong, what's good and what's bad. And we shouldn't be looking to these woke ideologues to tell us
00:30:12.900
Yep. You described cancel culture so well in that the standard of morality is ever-changing because
00:30:19.520
it doesn't actually have a foundation. It doesn't have anything to stand on. And because it doesn't
00:30:25.000
have a foundation, it has no limiting principles. So of course, it's just going to be dictated by
00:30:29.520
social whims. Of course, it's going to change on a day-to-day basis. But as you articulated so well,
00:30:34.560
Christianity stands firm because Hebrews 13.8, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
00:30:40.340
And if he is what we stand on, then of course, our theology should not be changed by
00:30:45.680
the progressive whim of the moment. And I'm interested to hear you articulate, if you can,
00:30:50.740
just kind of summarize. We've talked about it many times on this podcast, why we believe in
00:30:55.720
the importance of the definition of marriage as we see in Genesis, as we see reflected in
00:31:01.180
Revelation, as we see reiterated throughout Scripture as between one man and one woman.
00:31:05.640
But I'm interested for you to hear you summarize your perspective on that or your view on that
00:31:12.740
and why you are against the sanctioning of homosexual marriage within the church,
00:31:16.760
as well as your view on women being ordained. These are two of the most controversial stances
00:31:21.600
that you can take, even in the States, even in evangelicalism in the States. So I'm just
00:31:28.920
Well, for me, it comes down to the family, first and foremost. The family is the cornerstone
00:31:32.980
of Western democracy. It's the cornerstone of our way of life. And this is why the communists,
00:31:38.960
the neo-Marxists, always want to destroy it. This is why they say that a child belongs to the
00:31:45.080
state. It's the state's role to bring children up rather than the parent, because we know
00:31:48.600
fundamentally that it's a parent's role to educate their children. It's a parent's role
00:31:51.920
to pass on values to their children. And it's a parent's role to make sure that they are producing
00:31:55.380
a good, positive, I would say, good Christian. But if you're not faithful, you could say just
00:32:00.480
helping produce a good character to send out to be a contributor to society. Now, if we want
00:32:06.680
to have a community, if we want to have a sense of belonging and love and live in a good place,
00:32:13.560
live in a good society, family is where that starts. It's the first community that we're
00:32:17.740
involved in. And then we have the wider, we have the parish, we have the wider social community,
00:32:21.760
we have our school or our workplace, and then we have our nation. And this is why nationhood is also
00:32:25.420
very important. And this is why, if you look at what the Marxists are doing, or the neo-Marxists,
00:32:29.560
whatever you want to call them, they're breaking down the family unit. They're saying, actually,
00:32:32.560
we want to destroy heteronormative families, because that's going to fundamentally take
00:32:38.500
children away from their parents. But also, it's going to stop our reproductive cycles,
00:32:43.020
because the whole purpose of having family being, or marriage being one man, one woman,
00:32:48.040
is for procreation. And if you say that heteronormativity is bad, and one man and one woman
00:32:54.600
marrying each other is an old-fashioned idea, then you're going to go down a different route that
00:32:59.140
actually takes away the procreation and the spreading of the seed and the multiplying and
00:33:05.620
creating nations and creating disciples. So that's on the family side of things. But also on a wider
00:33:12.760
structural situation, what we're seeing is that all these movements that say they are anti-capitalist
00:33:19.840
are actually anti-democracy, because the opposite of communism isn't capitalism. Capitalism isn't an
00:33:26.300
ideology. Capitalism is a mechanism. It's a tool set that we use to get by. The opposite of
00:33:31.400
communism is liberal democracy. And that's what we have in the West. And that's essentially what
00:33:35.980
they're trying to destroy by destroying the family. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think
00:33:39.720
that's a really good way to look at it. We typically use an alliteration when we're talking about
00:33:44.060
biblically why we believe in the definition of marriage. It's rooted in creation. It's reiterated
00:33:48.620
throughout Scripture. It's repeated by Jesus in Matthew 19. It is representative of Christ in the
00:33:53.460
church in Ephesians 5. And therefore, it is reflective of the gospel.
00:33:58.980
This is what I forget. I'm on an American show right now. We can actually talk about the faith
00:34:04.640
So I'll answer the second part of your question on why I don't believe in the ordination of women.
00:34:08.500
And it is for several reasons. But first of all, the priest is in persona Christi. The priest
00:34:14.240
at the altar during the sacrifice is representing Christ himself. And when Christ became a man,
00:34:23.460
when God became man incarnate, he chose a man. Christ chose when he was going to be born. He chose
00:34:30.420
where, and he chose in what setting, on purpose. He doesn't do anything by accident. God does not do
00:34:36.440
accidents. So first and foremost, in persona Christi is a man. Secondly, it's not in the Bible for
00:34:43.480
female ordination, whether it be presbyter or episcopate, so whether it be priest or a bishop,
00:34:50.600
there was no such thing. And again, that wasn't by accident. Christ chose his 12 apostles to be men
00:34:56.140
for a reason. And that's not, you know, people will say, what about equal rights? It's nothing
00:35:00.020
to do with rights. It's nothing to do with equality. You know, the Bible clearly shows that men and
00:35:04.280
women are equal, but different. Equal does not mean the same. That's another misnomer we have going on
00:35:11.700
at the moment, that equal seems to mean that there is no difference between us. There are very clear
00:35:17.420
biological differences between men and women. Men tend to be physically stronger, which is why
00:35:22.100
now that we're allowing men into women's sports, we're seeing women get demolished. It's just,
00:35:26.860
it's natural. It's not a good thing. But the whole point of complementarianism is that women are better
00:35:32.960
at other things, such as being more maternal. And even saying that, I know that people are going to
00:35:38.380
frown upon it, suggesting that women are more caring and empathetic than men. But it is, you know,
00:35:42.920
it's a biological truth. And when Christ talks about situations of mothering, as he does, he says,
00:35:49.760
you know, in times God mothers all of us as his children. That's the wording he uses, because that's
00:35:55.780
what it means to be maternal. However, when he tells us to talk to God, the Father, he does use that
00:36:01.400
word Father. He uses that word Abba. And so all of these progressive movements that are saying, you know,
00:36:06.460
maybe God's a woman, maybe we should call God she, or how do you know God's gender? Actually,
00:36:11.240
God told you his gender pronouns. And if you want to disregard them, that's on you. That's your
00:36:15.700
blasphemy. Yep, exactly. It reminds me of Genesis 1, when God creates man and says, let us make man in
00:36:22.480
our image. It seems like that's what human beings are doing today. Let us make God in our image,
00:36:28.740
trying to turn God. There's two things from Genesis. God made them male and female, and God made them
00:36:33.440
in his image. So those two things suggest that, first of all, God designed you the way you are,
00:36:38.700
either man or woman. And because he designed you the way you are, you are your body, and he loves you
00:36:43.440
and your body, because you are your body. He loves you for who you are. Therefore, you should love
00:36:47.860
yourself for who you are. And this idea that we can change our body and change our gender,
00:36:54.080
whether it's surgery or whatever you want to call it, mutilation, that is an affront to God.
00:37:01.400
Yes, I read this book. I don't know if you've read it. It's called Love Thy Body
00:37:05.260
by Nancy Piercy. And she does a wonderful job of talking from both a theological and also
00:37:13.060
philosophical perspective of why Christianity regards the body the way that it does. I think
00:37:19.600
a lot of people have this idea that Christianity is just about denying the body and denying bodily
00:37:25.080
passions. And it's not. It's about putting bodily passions in the right context and using our bodies,
00:37:29.900
stewarding our bodies, how God created them, that we actually have a telos, a purpose, that we were
00:37:36.020
made teleologically in the sense that our bodies have a purpose that we cannot decide, that we cannot
00:37:41.860
declare, that we cannot choose. Because God created us, he not only tells us what our bodies are, but
00:37:47.440
tells us that our bodies tell us who we are. And those two things cannot be detached. But you can kind of
00:37:53.120
see in this whole progressive postmodern world, where you think that you are self-creating,
00:37:57.900
self-declaring, self-identifying, that you do detach the body from the mind to say that the mind
00:38:06.380
can dictate what the body is. Christianity, as you mentioned earlier, has to be a refuge against not
00:38:12.760
just what is confusion, but also is moral chaos and anarchy. And as we have seen so many times,
00:38:18.600
ends in destruction, not just for society at large, but also for the individual.
00:38:23.840
Ali, I need to get you to come and preach in my church, honestly. You're fantastic. But you're spot
00:38:28.000
on, you know. And a lot of it is our own side. I'm assuming you're on the right of politics here with
00:38:32.720
this. Because the left are massive collectivists, and they want to put us in these big boxes,
00:38:37.860
whether, you know, we talked about BIPOC, BAME, UKME, whatever. But they label us by our immutable
00:38:43.280
characteristics so that they can own us, they can control us. And they can say, you know,
00:38:46.800
as Joe Biden has said, you know, if you don't vote Democrat, you ain't black. Like, it's this
00:38:51.680
assumption that by your immutable characteristics, you owe them your vote. But our response on the
00:38:57.380
right is hyper-individualism. It's actually that each person owns their label and owns their
00:39:04.820
immutable characteristics to the point of you're still identifying as Afro-American or African-American
00:39:10.180
or Black-British or whatever. And you're putting your own personal identity in front of everything.
00:39:15.480
And this is why we have black theology and queer theology and all of these things, because we are
00:39:19.620
creating ourselves as individual gods. And the Christian answer is somewhere in between, as if
00:39:24.880
we are individuals and we are unique and special and loved by God. But we're also, we have that
00:39:30.580
collective element too, in that we have a sense of obligation and duty to our community, to our
00:39:34.620
family, and we can't get by on our own. But more importantly, there's something bigger than us.
00:39:39.780
There's something bigger than us as individuals, and that is God. And that's the whole point of the
00:39:44.840
Christian faith, teaching us how to enter that relationship, that ever-evolving, that loving
00:39:48.760
relationship of God, which is why he is a trinity, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
00:39:53.920
because it's an everlasting relationship of love. And we are invited to join that. And the moment we
00:39:59.960
step away from it and create ourselves as gods, we are turning our back on him, turning our back on love,
00:40:05.880
Yep. And that also reminds me of what you said of God being in perpetual community with himself,
00:40:11.960
perpetual fellowship with himself, and we are made in his image, which means that we also need
00:40:17.780
community and fellowship, not just to thrive, but also to survive. That also goes back to why
00:40:22.100
COVID lockdowns didn't work, because it goes against human nature. It is cruel. That's why something like
00:40:28.180
solitary confinement is even sometimes seen as cruel and unusual punishment. It's the worst thing that you
00:40:32.960
can put someone through because we are made in God's image, who, as you said, is in perpetual
00:40:43.080
I want to get your perspective on something that is not necessarily theological, although I guess you
00:40:47.420
could argue that everything is essentially theological. But-
00:40:50.720
Can I just put a quick challenge out based on what you just said?
00:40:53.820
Because I want to challenge the Christians, because a lot of Christians, especially who are on our side,
00:40:57.760
have said to me, well, what's happened to you is all for Calvin. I don't need a church.
00:41:01.420
I'm a Christian. I'm at home. I do my own prayers. I say my own prayers. I don't need to go to a
00:41:06.400
church. I just want to put a challenge out there because it's so important, because our faith is
00:41:09.860
not something you can do on your own. It's not an individualistic faith. The scriptures say is that
00:41:14.040
when two or three are gathered in his name, he is with us. We have to be in a community. And of course,
00:41:18.960
it's difficult because we're all fallen. Therefore, institutions that are made up of people
00:41:23.620
are also fallen. But our challenge is to be a part of that community for the reasons you just
00:41:28.940
articulated. Yes. And I think that they can also take cues from you in seeking a church and seeking
00:41:35.400
a community that is based on the scriptures and is not being dictated by the latest demands of
00:41:41.180
the social justice elite and making sure that they are orthodox in their theology.
00:41:47.660
All right. The next question that I have, there's not really like a smooth transition into it. I'm just
00:41:51.940
curious and was curious as you were speaking about this from your British perspective. I know that
00:41:55.780
you're conservative. That doesn't mean we necessarily see everything the same, just because
00:42:01.280
culture is different. So I'm curious about your answer to the question. If someone were to ask you,
00:42:07.220
what is the difference in Britain and the United States when it comes to guns and crime? Because
00:42:15.740
of course, there's crime and murder there in the UK. But one question that a lot of conservatives are
00:42:21.900
asked because we have so many guns here in the United States and we have a second amendment
00:42:25.500
is why do the kind of mass shootings that we see in the US not happen in somewhere like the UK? Is
00:42:34.040
it just because of the gun laws? I had a follower who lives in the UK say, well, actually, she believes
00:42:40.100
that it is because in the UK, people are generally less vitriolic. They're less angry online. They're less
00:42:45.700
kind of impassioned in the debates and the conversations that they have. So there's not as much anger.
00:42:50.240
I have no idea if that's true. I'm just kind of curious what you think about that.
00:42:55.140
Yeah, I don't think I'd subscribe to that generalization. I think people in general are
00:43:00.060
roughly the same, especially in Western nations. We're becoming more tribal, more polarized,
00:43:05.480
and actually more vitriolic. And I think the internet is the devil's playground. The internet
00:43:09.320
has a lot to answer for in that regard, because we're all finding our own individual silos with people
00:43:14.160
that think like us and agree with us. And we're living in our own echo chambers. So the moment we see
00:43:18.700
or hear something we disagree with, we don't know how to handle it anymore. And I think the church
00:43:22.720
used to be a good answer for this, because the church is the true home of diversity, because you
00:43:26.460
have young and old, white and black, male and female, everyone coming together from a place,
00:43:31.720
rooted in a place. And we don't have place anymore. People live together, don't even know their next
00:43:36.640
door neighbours anymore, never mind people from their local church. So I think that's part of it.
00:43:41.100
But back to the guns, we did have, so we have stricter gun controls, obviously. We used to have
00:43:48.280
the right to bear arms in this country. That was taken away a long time ago. But I think it was
00:43:52.660
taken away at a time when it was possible. Obviously, with America now having more guns
00:43:56.840
than people, by a big count, it's not possible. But also, I struggle with it, because biblically,
00:44:02.000
Christ says we should all own swords. And if you don't own one, sell your clothes, you know,
00:44:06.300
sell your cloak and buy a sword. And I think there's something in that, having the ability
00:44:10.940
to protect yourself, not just from other people, but from the government. I really do truly believe
00:44:16.080
in your Second Amendment. I think it's fantastic. Well, sorry, is it first?
00:44:21.200
Oh, it is second. First. No, I think it's fantastic.
00:44:26.760
Right. But it is an issue. And I think if we look at other countries for comparison,
00:44:32.680
we have to look at other countries with guns. And Israel is a good example.
00:44:35.180
They don't seem to have as many school shootings, because the teachers have guns. And I know that's
00:44:39.900
a controversial thing to say. And I know Trump said something similar. But perhaps there's
00:44:44.240
something in that. I don't know. It's too difficult to judge at the moment.
00:44:48.680
Yeah, I do think I do think it's difficult to judge. I mean, of course, the easy thing to say is
00:44:53.720
because we have more guns, we have less restrictive gun laws. But as you kind of mentioned with Israel,
00:44:59.260
it's a little bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Actually, I do think it goes a lot deeper
00:45:03.520
than simply the ownership of guns. America has always had guns. We've always had millions of
00:45:09.260
guns. We've always had a very strong gun culture. And we haven't had the same problems that we are
00:45:13.220
having today. So I just want to throw that out there. But I appreciate your perspective on that.
00:45:17.140
Last question I want to ask you, and this one is kind of fun. Tell me about the significance of
00:45:22.620
the Platinum Jubilee. I think most people know what it is. But as someone who lives in the UK,
00:45:26.860
is this something that you really care about, that you're excited about? And just in general,
00:45:31.900
I know that we could probably talk about this for a long time. But what are your feelings about the
00:45:36.600
royal family and about Meghan and Harry? We have our own feelings here about Meghan and Harry. But
00:45:40.940
just tell me in general, kind of what you think about it all.
00:45:44.220
I think Her Majesty the Queen is fantastic. She's been serving this country for 70 years.
00:45:49.500
And, you know, I'm a big fan of America for a lot of reasons. But one of the things I don't like
00:45:52.760
about America is that the president is the head of state. Because we're seeing America get more
00:45:57.500
divided. You know, the left are getting more left wing, the right is getting more right wing.
00:46:01.020
And this has been going on for years and years. There's very little common ground between the
00:46:04.800
two parties now. And, you know, even when, for example, Trump put a really good executive order
00:46:09.640
in against discrimination and against critical race theory and all that stuff, the left,
00:46:15.020
Tory top as soon as they got in, because not because they are pro-discrimination, but because it was
00:46:18.760
something that he put in. So it's all getting very polarised. But Her Majesty the Queen is
00:46:24.740
apolitical. And having an apolitical figure, head of state is fantastic, because first of all,
00:46:31.520
she can hold our prime ministers to account. So she has weekly meetings with our prime ministers.
00:46:36.000
But also, she's above the political system. So we've had, what, 14 prime ministers under her rule.
00:46:43.600
And she's been the consistency there all the time. But she's also a figurehead that brings
00:46:49.020
us together. And I know there are a grand number of Republicans in this country, but they are still
00:46:53.080
a minority. Most people do support the royal family because it's the epitome of Britishness. It is a
00:46:58.220
symbol. Much like you guys have your flag, you unite under your flag. Well, we have a living embodiment
00:47:03.280
of Britishness. I think that's quite special, because not a lot of places still have that. And
00:47:07.640
celebrating the Jubilee, for me, has been the highlight of my year so far, just because
00:47:13.600
we're so divided post-Brexit, post-COVID, post all of these issues that are going on. And it's
00:47:19.320
something that brings us back together, reminds us that we are stronger together as a British people.
00:47:24.440
And we're British first and foremost, before being black, gay, straight, whatever. You know,
00:47:29.740
the left of the woke lot keep telling us that we have to be divided based on our immutable
00:47:33.920
characteristics. Things like the Jubilee are what unite us. And the last time we had that was London
00:47:39.080
2012 with the Olympics. Of course, that was before all of the Brexit and all of the politics
00:47:43.420
took off. So it's a reminder of a better time, I think.
00:47:47.340
Yeah, we have nothing like that in the United States. Unfortunately, we really don't have
00:47:51.500
anything that I could even see possibly bringing us together. So I certainly can see how, at least
00:47:57.220
from a symbolic standpoint, that that is a unifying force. Do you have any comments about, speaking
00:48:04.120
of unifying, the people who seem the opposite of unifying and very divisive are Meghan and Harry,
00:48:08.860
at least from my vantage point? What is it? What is your perspective on that? I can guess,
00:48:15.240
Yeah, I knew you weren't going to let me get away with that. I don't like Meghan. I really,
00:48:20.200
really don't like Meghan. And what I don't like about the situation of Meghan is that anyone that
00:48:25.580
says they don't like her, at least in this country. Well, yeah, but anyone in this country that says they
00:48:30.060
don't like her is accused of being racist just because she happens to be brown. It's almost as if
00:48:35.020
she can do or say anything, and she's above reproach because she's brown-skinned. I find
00:48:39.380
that repulsive. If we want to live in an equitable society, and I'm not saying we do, but if we want
00:48:43.580
to live in a society that's more equal, at least, everyone should be able to hold opinions about
00:48:48.960
anything, whatever their skin colour. And for her to come over here and, you know, I know you don't
00:48:55.540
have a royal family in America, but you have a very high celebrity culture. And she's brought that
00:48:59.900
over here and assumed somehow that that's what the royal family is. But no, they're a family
00:49:03.680
rooted in duty, service, obligation, Christian values. And I don't know if she knows what any of
00:49:09.760
those words mean, but she's wanted the fame and the glamour and the glory, but without all of the
00:49:14.800
work that comes along with it. And I don't think she liked what she saw. And she sulked and obviously
00:49:20.200
took Harry off to America with her. And not only did she do that, but she belittled the royal family
00:49:26.720
and the monarchy. And that is a British institution. You know, the queen isn't just a person, she is an
00:49:30.700
institution. So when Meghan attacks the royal family by throwing out these random allegations
00:49:35.980
of racism without anything to back them up, she's tearing down a British institution. I think
00:49:40.780
that's subordinate. And I dislike her for that, as well as many other things. You know, she's lied
00:49:44.700
plenty of times in the Oprah Winfrey interview that, you know, proven lies. She's just a despicable
00:49:50.660
person. It's a great shame that Harry has fallen for her. But, you know, hopefully he'll come around
00:49:55.840
and hopefully he'll bring her with him because obviously I don't believe in divorce as a Christian.
00:50:00.260
So I'm hoping that he can show her the truth, show her the light. He looks very sad. He looks
00:50:05.940
very regretful on his recent visit for the Jubilee. It looked like he was missing his old life. And it's
00:50:11.760
understandable. Yeah, I think that that's one thing that we do observe, that he does kind of seem like
00:50:16.680
a sad and sullen person that's just kind of being dragged around now. I think the important thing to
00:50:21.460
remember, though, is that they want privacy. They did the Oprah Winfrey interview to ensure that
00:50:27.540
they got privacy. They had the Spotify podcast to ensure that everyone knew that they wanted to
00:50:31.520
remain private. They've talked about their mansion and released pictures of their kids just so everyone
00:50:36.160
knows that they want to remain private. It has nothing to do with celebrity at all. So at least
00:50:39.760
they're humble if there's one good thing that we can say about them. Well, thank you so much. I have
00:50:44.480
so, so enjoyed this. We had some cheers actually over behind the camera when you said that you
00:50:50.400
didn't like Meghan Markle. So I think, I think that, yes, I think that we are in agreement over
00:50:57.340
here. But I really, really appreciate you taking the time to come on, give us your insight on all
00:51:01.760
of these issues and to tell us the story of what happened with the Church of England. Extremely
00:51:06.280
insightful. So I just appreciate you sharing all of that with us today.
00:51:11.320
Ali, anytime. And like I said, I would love for you to come and preach at my church once I'm ordained.
00:51:14.540
I think you're a fantastic preacher. Keep preaching a good word.
00:51:17.180
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that so much. I hope you have a great rest of your day.