Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 08, 2022


Ep 626 ｜ Can Southern Baptists Be Saved？ ｜ Guest： Pastor Tom Ascol


Episode Stats


Length

55 minutes

Words per minute

166.34569

Word count

9,271

Sentence count

506

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

10

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The Southern Baptist Convention released a report a couple weeks ago about sexual abuse allegations within the denomination. In this episode, Allie talks with Pastor Tom Askell about the report and what it means for the future of the denomination and what he hopes to bring to it.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable.
00:00:01.780 Happy Wednesday.
00:00:03.480 This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
00:00:07.280 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie.
00:00:09.900 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.
00:00:21.380 All right, guys, today we are going to talk about a little bit of a niche subject, and
00:00:26.660 that is the Southern Baptist Convention.
00:00:29.420 Why are we talking about this?
00:00:31.760 Well, a couple weeks ago, was it?
00:00:34.200 Yeah, a couple weeks ago now, the SBC released a report about sexual abuse allegations within
00:00:42.900 the denomination that have occurred over the past 20 plus years.
00:00:49.620 Guidepost was the organization that did the investigation, put together the report, and
00:00:55.160 this matters because the SBC is the largest Protestant denomination in the country.
00:01:01.200 It is a very influential denomination within Protestantism in general.
00:01:05.820 It's a pretty politically active denomination as well, pretty conservative.
00:01:11.720 And yet, over the past several years, there have been debates.
00:01:16.400 There have been divisions about things like critical race theory, social and so-called
00:01:23.080 racial justice, how to deal with the issue of sexual abuse and sexual abuse allegations
00:01:29.720 within the church, especially in light of the bigger cultural conversation about Me Too.
00:01:35.500 So there have been fault lines.
00:01:37.680 There have been fissures within the SBC about how to approach these things biblically.
00:01:44.900 And now the SBC is holding its annual meeting in Anaheim, California next week, where they
00:01:51.980 will be voting on leadership positions.
00:01:54.280 In particular, they will be voting on the president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
00:01:59.680 And there is a candidate for that position named Pastor Tom Askell.
00:02:04.140 He is the president of Founders Ministries.
00:02:06.860 He's been on the show before.
00:02:08.160 I have been on his podcast before.
00:02:10.580 He is the senior pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Florida.
00:02:14.160 He has been the pastor for 36 years.
00:02:17.660 And a few years ago, he spearheaded resolution number six on regenerate church membership and
00:02:23.420 church member restoration.
00:02:24.520 We are going to be talking to him at the end of this episode about that, about the need
00:02:31.060 for repentance within the Southern Baptist Convention, what he hopes would come of his
00:02:36.580 leadership, what he hopes for the direction of the Southern Baptist Convention, whether
00:02:41.900 or not he is at the head of it.
00:02:45.160 He is also the primary drafter of the 2018 Dallas Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel.
00:02:51.160 That is a statement that was a response to the evangelical drift away from the gospel and
00:02:56.260 towards the emphasis on social justice.
00:02:58.620 I signed to that resolution.
00:03:00.040 John MacArthur, Votie Bauckham signed that resolution, several others.
00:03:07.020 And so Tom Askell will be, would be leading the convention in, I wouldn't call it a conservative
00:03:13.740 direction in the sense that it's not politically conservative per se.
00:03:19.620 I would call it a biblical direction.
00:03:22.920 And that's what you're going to hear him talk about, getting back to the Word of God, ensuring
00:03:28.760 that how we are handling these very complex cultural, social, political issues, and just
00:03:33.620 issues within the church, of course, theological gospel issues, ensuring that we are handling
00:03:38.160 and approaching all of these things biblically and not adopting a secular ideology or taking
00:03:45.200 cues from the world in how we approach these various serious subjects.
00:03:49.080 But before we talk to him about all of that, I'm also going to get his response to this
00:03:53.700 sexual abuse allegation guidepost report.
00:03:56.620 I do want to talk about the report a little bit.
00:03:59.320 We haven't yet because I knew I'd be having this interview with Pastor Tom Askell.
00:04:03.680 And so I just wanted to put it all in the same episode.
00:04:06.260 But I've been wanting to talk about it since the report came out.
00:04:10.480 Now, when it came out on May 15th, I was actually on a break.
00:04:13.020 And so I didn't even have the opportunity to talk about it on my show.
00:04:18.480 And then I wanted to wait until we had all the information and had the opportunity to
00:04:24.080 talk to Pastor Askell and to put it all together.
00:04:28.160 And so that's why we are talking about it today.
00:04:30.920 And so let me just tell you a little bit about what this report says.
00:04:34.360 I'm just going to give you an overview.
00:04:36.340 You can go read it online.
00:04:37.620 We will include the link to it in the description of this podcast.
00:04:42.680 And the reason, again, why this is important, it's not just because the Southern Baptist
00:04:46.280 Convention is a large denomination, a very influential denomination within American Christianity,
00:04:51.040 but also because of that fact, because of the influence that the SBC has, the mainstream
00:04:57.240 media reports on the SBC a lot.
00:04:59.580 And you will see if you look this up on your search engine, you will see a lot of giddy
00:05:04.360 reporting and a lot of giddy headlines about the divisions and about the hypocrisy of the
00:05:11.640 SBC because of these sexual abuse allegations.
00:05:15.140 And it's unfortunate when any reporter, when any journalist takes delight in this kind of
00:05:23.600 thing because they see Christianity kind of as an enemy.
00:05:28.020 And so they're clamoring for any opportunity to try to highlight its hypocrisy or its sin.
00:05:35.820 However, we can acknowledge that fact and not discredit the truthful reporting about the
00:05:43.340 sexual abuse allegations.
00:05:45.020 And we can acknowledge that there may be some nefarious motivations behind people who have
00:05:51.480 always hated the SBC, who have always hated Protestantism or Christianity, and they want to 1.00
00:05:56.460 see the SBC crash and burn.
00:05:58.480 We can acknowledge that without dismissing the reality of the grotesqueness and the depravity
00:06:05.440 that we see reported on in this guidepost summary.
00:06:10.300 I do think that this is something that we have to take seriously.
00:06:13.060 We can't just dismiss it as the secular world or the mainstream media or haters of the church
00:06:19.280 wanting to destroy the church.
00:06:21.580 That may all be true, and yet we should be heartbroken by some of the things that we see
00:06:27.660 in this particular report.
00:06:29.240 So I'm going to talk about some of the points in it and what I think is the biblical point
00:06:36.560 of it all and the biblical response to it all before we get into the interview with Pastor
00:06:42.240 Tom Askell.
00:06:43.020 So the SBC guidepost report is titled the Southern Baptist Convention Executive Committee's
00:06:49.780 Response to Sexual Abuse Allegations and an Audit of the Procedures and Actions of the
00:06:54.180 Credentials Committee.
00:06:56.280 So this is conducted in response to a number of allegations of sexual abuse by SBC-affiliated
00:07:00.800 pastors and a lack of response to these.
00:07:04.860 Here's a quote from it.
00:07:05.680 At the 2021 Nashville Convention, calls for reform reached a crescendo.
00:07:10.500 The messengers overwhelmingly voted to approve a task force to supervise an independent
00:07:14.360 investigation into the executive committee's handling of sexual abuse allegations.
00:07:18.540 The motion called for an inquiry into the actions and decisions of EC staff and members
00:07:23.640 from January 1st, 2000 to June 13th, 2021.
00:07:28.780 So some of the results are this.
00:07:30.540 It revealed that for many years, this is a quote, for many years, a few senior executive
00:07:35.020 committee leaders, along with outside counsel, largely controlled the EC's response to reports
00:07:40.080 of abuse.
00:07:40.580 They closely guarded information about abuse allegations and lawsuits, which were not shared
00:07:45.980 with EC trustees and were singularly focused on avoiding liability for the SBC to the exclusion
00:07:53.700 of other considerations.
00:07:55.580 In service to this goal, survivors and others who reported abuse were ignored, disbelieved,
00:08:00.840 or met with the constant refrain that the SBC could take no action due to its polity
00:08:06.200 regarding church autonomy, even if it meant that convicted molesters continued in ministry
00:08:11.400 with no notice or warning to their current church or congregation.
00:08:15.580 Now, that part might be a little bit confusing for a lot of you who are not in the SBC or especially
00:08:22.040 those of you who are not Protestants.
00:08:24.300 So Protestantism, especially the SBC, is not like the Catholic Church in that there is not 0.95
00:08:30.080 a uniform hierarchy.
00:08:31.320 So the president of the SBC doesn't go around to all the SBC churches and tell them what
00:08:37.880 to do or how to preach.
00:08:40.000 There really isn't a leadership structure like that.
00:08:44.280 There isn't a cohesive hierarchy within the SBC.
00:08:48.100 All of the churches are part of the SBC voluntarily, and some of the tithing goes to some SBC causes,
00:08:56.180 but they are not told, you know, what exactly they have to preach or what they have to say
00:09:01.960 or that they can and can't say certain things exactly.
00:09:06.060 The local churches are autonomous.
00:09:08.520 And so the head of the SBC, the executive committee, does not necessarily have the authority
00:09:14.120 to go to some, you know, random SBC church in Kentucky and to tell it how to handle its business.
00:09:20.780 Now, that does not mean that there were not failures, though, according to this report
00:09:25.680 of the executive committee.
00:09:28.240 There is an allegation included in the report that a former president of the SBC, President
00:09:35.320 Johnny Hunt, had sexually assaulted a woman back in 2010.
00:09:41.660 And there were other allegations of the mishandling of abuse accusations and the mistreatment of victims
00:09:48.980 that was chronicled in this report.
00:09:51.500 The report says that the executive committee's response to some accusations of sexual abuse
00:09:56.580 was largely driven by senior executive committee staff members, particularly Augie Boto,
00:10:04.760 and then the EC general counsel and later interim EC president and outside counsel James Gunther,
00:10:11.520 James Jordan, and the firm of Gunther, Jordan, and Price.
00:10:14.420 Those who reported abuse, according to this report, were largely ignored or they were told
00:10:20.540 that the SBC had no power to take action.
00:10:24.300 That is what the report says.
00:10:26.140 And then staff working for Mr. Boto were maintaining a list of accused ministers in Baptist churches,
00:10:32.020 but there is no indication that anyone took action.
00:10:36.180 The list has over 700 alleged abusers, with 409 believed to be SBC-affiliated at some point.
00:10:45.240 The report also says that there is intimidation of victims or advocates.
00:10:51.580 So the executive committee leaders allegedly denigrated the people who spoke out as opportunistic,
00:10:57.560 having a hidden agenda of lawsuits, wanting to burn things to the ground, acting as a professional victim.
00:11:03.520 The Baptist Press, which is the EC's communication arm, was used to portray survivors in an unflattering light
00:11:10.420 and mischaracterized allegations.
00:11:13.060 In March of 2019, Jennifer Lyle was asked to disclose her sexual abuse at the hands of a former seminary professor
00:11:18.960 through a first-person account to be published in the Baptist Press.
00:11:22.860 But the Baptist Press editors allegedly changed the account to read,
00:11:26.680 as if Ms. Lyle was consensually involved with her alleged abuser,
00:11:31.280 and that she had a, quote, morally inappropriate relationship with him.
00:11:35.580 And then the Baptist Press actually retracted the story in October of 2019.
00:11:41.040 There is a list of key recommendations.
00:11:43.320 There was a lot more.
00:11:44.160 There were a lot more accusations and a lot more details in there of what this report says
00:11:48.920 has happened in the SBC over the past 20-plus years.
00:11:52.940 And then, at the end of their report, they give some recommendations.
00:11:56.960 They say that the SBC should form an independent commission
00:11:59.620 and later establish a permanent administrative entity to oversee comprehensive long-term reforms
00:12:04.380 concerning sexual abuse and related misconduct within the SBC,
00:12:07.960 restrict the use of NDAs in civil settlements related to sexual abuse matters
00:12:12.240 unless requested by the survivor,
00:12:14.500 adopt a declaration of principle setting out standards regarding sexual abuse allegations and handling,
00:12:19.580 acknowledge those who have been affected by SBC clergy sexual abuse through apology and a tangible gesture,
00:12:26.420 and prioritize the provision of compassionate care to survivors
00:12:29.120 through providing dedicated survivor advocacy support and survivor compensation fund.
00:12:37.640 Now, the response to this has been, I think, from people within the SBC,
00:12:42.020 it's been a lot of sadness, including me.
00:12:44.060 Um, I have gone to SBC churches my whole life.
00:12:48.760 We've always gone to Southern Baptist churches.
00:12:50.620 My experience, of course, has been a good experience,
00:12:53.500 but I understand that that is not true of everyone.
00:12:57.360 Some people have had a harsher experience with what they might call purity culture,
00:13:03.500 and I've talked about the goods, the bads, and the uglies of purity culture
00:13:07.660 and how I think the church can approach the subject of sexual purity with young people a lot better
00:13:12.920 with a focus on holistic holiness rather than upholding, like, marriage and sex as this idol.
00:13:20.000 Um, and so we can link that past episode.
00:13:22.600 I've talked about that before.
00:13:24.460 Um, but just because I had a positive experience,
00:13:27.780 that does not mean that I am negating at all the negative experiences that some people have had
00:13:32.700 with the church or the denomination in general
00:13:36.200 or with a particular leader that sexually abused them,
00:13:39.060 and then to take your complaints to the people in charge who you are told,
00:13:42.800 especially if you take your complaints to a pastor.
00:13:45.140 I mean, you're told that this person is supposed to be your shepherd.
00:13:47.380 This person, in a way, is supposed to be your protector
00:13:50.280 because they are a shepherd of a flock, and that is what a shepherd does.
00:13:53.440 It protects its sheep.
00:13:55.380 And for that pastor to then turn around and to chastise the sheep for getting abused
00:14:00.200 and to coddle the wolf.
00:14:03.640 I mean, that's about as wicked as it could possibly get.
00:14:08.140 So I am thankful for this report.
00:14:10.320 And yes, again, I know it's going to be used by people who have nefarious motivations,
00:14:15.020 who don't like the SBC simply because they don't like the politics that the SBC represents,
00:14:21.200 that SBC is mostly conservative, and they just have it out against the church.
00:14:25.020 They think that the church and Christianity is bad in general.
00:14:28.060 Yes, there are going to be people with those kinds of negative motivations, absolutely.
00:14:34.040 But look, if we believe that God is true, and we believe that God is just,
00:14:41.260 and we believe that God is love, if we believe everything that the Bible says about God,
00:14:49.440 and if we believe Jesus' promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against the church,
00:14:55.080 then we certainly should not be afraid of honesty and transparency and accountability.
00:15:00.460 Yes, we should use discernment.
00:15:02.240 We should be asking ourselves questions about anyone who would launch accusations at the church
00:15:07.180 out of not love and hope for victims, but out of hatred and malice.
00:15:12.280 Yes, we can use discernment and distinguish between legitimate criticisms and legitimate accusations
00:15:18.760 and those that start with false pretenses.
00:15:22.860 And we can ignore the outside noise and look inward and say,
00:15:27.480 what is our local church doing to ensure that there is accountability,
00:15:32.440 that there is transparency, that there is protection,
00:15:35.520 and that there is always a listening ear for those who have suffered abuse?
00:15:39.640 And what guide reels are we putting in place?
00:15:46.480 What protections are we putting in place to ensure that this kind of thing does not happen,
00:15:51.240 especially to children?
00:15:52.940 You know, we talk about a lot that children are always the unconsenting subjects
00:15:57.680 of progressive social experiments.
00:15:59.420 We talk a lot about how progressive society tends to put children on the altar first,
00:16:04.400 whether it's through literal child sacrifice, like abortion,
00:16:08.680 whether it's through destructive gender ideology and the mutilation of not just their innocence,
00:16:13.560 but also their bodies, whether it is draconian and unscientific COVID restrictions
00:16:20.040 that force kids into isolation and remote learning and driving them into depression
00:16:25.320 and isolation-induced suicide.
00:16:28.840 So we see that a lot from progressivism,
00:16:31.000 but that does not mean that progressivism is exclusively or solely responsible
00:16:35.620 for the sacrifice and the victimization of children.
00:16:38.880 It's one form, I believe, of wickedness,
00:16:42.040 but any kind of predation is first going to seek out the most vulnerable.
00:16:48.240 And children are always the most vulnerable and the most marginalized group in the world
00:16:53.780 because of their inability to protect themselves.
00:16:57.280 And it is beyond evil.
00:16:59.160 It is beyond corrupt for someone who leads not just a denomination,
00:17:06.000 but particularly a local church to brush that kind of abuse under the rug. 0.99
00:17:12.060 Look, we are used to the secular world sacrificing children.
00:17:15.520 We are used to hearing about secular entities,
00:17:18.220 very often the public education system, sexually abusing children.
00:17:22.760 Like, we understand that even in the foster care system,
00:17:26.220 unfortunately, there is a lot of sexual abuse, physical abuse of children.
00:17:30.800 We understand that that happens in the secular world in a variety of ways.
00:17:35.440 The church has always been called to something different,
00:17:38.440 as we've talked about so many times since the beginning of the church.
00:17:41.700 The church, one of the things that has set the church apart
00:17:44.720 is its protection and preservation of children,
00:17:49.040 who in secular society are always seen as less than.
00:17:52.500 They're always pushed to the side.
00:17:53.840 They're always subjugated in some way.
00:17:55.600 Christianity comes on the scene and follows Jesus who says,
00:18:00.120 let the little children come to me and do not hinder them for to such as these belongs the kingdom of heaven.
00:18:09.920 And so there was a radical difference in how Christianity approached children
00:18:15.540 and the marginalized and the most vulnerable and the abused and the victim from its inception.
00:18:20.800 And we are still to be carrying that torch today.
00:18:23.560 And any pastor who is in a position of authority,
00:18:26.460 who is in a position of protection to fail to protect the most vulnerable
00:18:33.880 and to hold to account those who victimize the most vulnerable in their church,
00:18:38.380 I mean, it's just beyond egregious.
00:18:40.380 So I'm thankful that we are seeing this.
00:18:43.140 I'm thankful that we are seeing this kind of report and transparency,
00:18:47.360 if only so that local churches will ensure that they have the systems that are set up
00:18:54.920 to prevent and to deal with this kind of issue in a way that is biblical.
00:19:03.600 And rather than just trying to, and Pastor Tom Askell will talk about this,
00:19:08.180 about the importance of involving civil authorities when it is called for,
00:19:12.200 rather than just trying to hide this sin,
00:19:15.320 ensure that the sinners who actually commit crimes are dealt with
00:19:19.580 in a way that is proportionate to their crime and also honors the experience of the victims.
00:19:27.660 Now, that does not mean that we follow suit with the world who just says that you believe all women
00:19:33.480 because that's the cultural moment that we're in.
00:19:35.980 And by the way, even the secular world doesn't actually believe that
00:19:39.960 because they pick and choose which women they want to believe
00:19:42.500 based on how politically convenient or expedient it is for them.
00:19:47.000 In the Old Testament, we see that God cares about the rights of both the accused and the accuser.
00:19:53.620 There is a punishment for false allegations in God's law giving to ancient Israel.
00:19:59.320 If someone made a false allegation, they had to bear the punishment
00:20:02.660 that would have been given to the person that they falsely accused
00:20:06.320 had that person been proven guilty.
00:20:09.040 And so false allegations are serious.
00:20:10.720 I think every leader of a local church has the responsibility to weigh accusations,
00:20:16.940 to look at the facts, to be discerning, of course.
00:20:20.720 But that never means brushing them under the rug.
00:20:23.540 That never means that we assume nefarious motivations
00:20:28.760 from the people who are making the accusations.
00:20:30.880 I think that is a sin.
00:20:32.180 And here's why, biblically, I think that it's okay that this matters
00:20:39.920 and that this is a bigger deal to both us and the world
00:20:43.840 than, say, a secular institution being guilty of the things that we see.
00:20:48.680 And yes, of course, we know that the Catholic Church is rife with sexual abuse of children.
00:20:54.080 There have been many reports that have come out about that.
00:20:57.740 But I don't think that we should use this opportunity to say,
00:21:00.700 well, this isn't as bad as that or this isn't as bad as that.
00:21:04.120 The fact of the matter is, is that this is happening within our denomination.
00:21:07.280 This is happening within a major Protestant denomination.
00:21:12.160 And here's what I think Scripture says about it.
00:21:15.160 Scripture has a lot to say about this.
00:21:16.660 But actually, my pastor a couple weeks ago talked about this passage,
00:21:20.060 Matthew 18, 5 through 6, that I just kind of alluded to a few minutes ago.
00:21:27.740 Whoever receives one such child in my name, Jesus says, receives me.
00:21:31.700 But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,
00:21:36.840 it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck
00:21:40.900 and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
00:21:43.860 Woe to the world for temptations to sin, for it is necessary that temptations come.
00:21:48.540 But woe to the one by whom the temptation comes.
00:21:52.960 Now, Jesus is surrounded by children in this moment.
00:21:56.600 But when he references one of these little ones, he is not specifically talking about children,
00:22:02.400 although it can include children.
00:22:04.000 He is actually talking about his followers.
00:22:07.260 He is talking about people who believe in Christ.
00:22:10.420 And he is saying, anyone who puts a stumbling block in front of anyone who believes in me,
00:22:17.560 it is better for him that he would have a heavy stone tied around his neck.
00:22:21.480 Think about how awful this would be.
00:22:22.860 And thrown into the depths of the sea than to bear the consequence of bringing temptation to a person.
00:22:31.860 And my pastor pointed out that this word stumbling block or causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin.
00:22:43.220 And some versions say to stumble.
00:22:45.680 That's what the NIV says.
00:22:47.640 That that word there is skandalizo.
00:22:50.700 The Greek word is skandalizo.
00:22:52.720 And that means to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way upon which another may trip and fall.
00:22:59.360 Or it could also mean to offend.
00:23:01.360 So it could mean to entice to sin.
00:23:03.420 It could mean to cause someone to distrust or desert the person that they were supposed to be following and trusting and obeying.
00:23:10.580 It could mean to cause someone to fall away.
00:23:13.260 And you can hear in that Greek word skandalizo, scandal.
00:23:16.620 When a scandal happens, that causes someone to distrust the institution in which that scandal happened or the person that was involved in that scandal.
00:23:25.440 If you think about a scandal, you kind of think about this revelation about someone that you thought you knew.
00:23:30.340 Maybe you thought was a good person.
00:23:33.160 Maybe not always.
00:23:34.040 But you had kind of an assumption about who that person was.
00:23:36.620 And then they're entrapped in some scandal and you realize they are not who they said that they were.
00:23:42.920 And that causes distrust that may cause detachment from that person or institution.
00:23:48.300 That's really what that word skandalizo means.
00:23:51.220 And I wanted to see where it shows up in the rest of Scripture to kind of show us what exactly does Jesus mean by this.
00:23:57.640 If you cause one of these little ones who believes in me to stumble or to sin or to fall away, what does Jesus mean by that?
00:24:04.940 And I think the rest of Scripture illuminates that.
00:24:07.780 In 1 Corinthians 8, 12 through 13, God through Paul says,
00:24:12.320 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
00:24:17.260 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat lest I make my brother stumble.
00:24:22.060 Now, in this context, he is talking about meat sacrifice to idols.
00:24:26.000 Paul is saying, look, some of you, you're convicted when you eat meat that sacrifice to idols.
00:24:31.680 You think that you shouldn't do it.
00:24:34.680 And some of you have no problem with doing it.
00:24:36.720 And look, this is not what righteousness is about.
00:24:38.560 Righteousness is not about the kind of food that you put in your body.
00:24:42.320 It's fine either way.
00:24:43.820 The only time he is saying that it is sinful to eat meat sacrifice to idols, if in doing so, you are offending your brother or sister in Christ who thinks that it is sinful for meat to be sacrificed to idols.
00:24:59.900 And in this case, he is saying that it is someone with a weaker conscience or with a weaker faith who could not handle eating meat sacrifice to idols.
00:25:08.540 And out of the spirit of humility, out of the spirit of love, out of the spirit of respect, and not wanting to cause your brother to be tempted to sin against what he sinned against or oppose his own conscience, you would abstain from eating meat.
00:25:27.120 So it really is all about self-service to your brother or sister in Christ.
00:25:32.520 And then Romans 14, 15 through 19, it says something similar.
00:25:37.840 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and mutual upbuilding.
00:26:07.840 That's what it's about.
00:26:08.720 It's not really about what you are eating.
00:26:10.760 It is about the conscience of your brother or sister in Christ.
00:26:14.100 It is about ensuring that they are built up in love and that whatever you are doing, whatever they are seeing you doing, is pushing them toward the Lord and pushing them toward truth and in love.
00:26:26.880 And so when you look at something that is happening in the SBC like this, why I think that it matters more than some secular entity doing what they do, abusing and sacrificing children, is because the church is supposed to be the light of the world.
00:26:40.660 The church is Christ's bride. 0.90
00:26:42.360 It's still full of fallen people.
00:26:44.880 It's full of people who sin.
00:26:46.100 So unfortunately, you are going to see different kinds of sin, including sexual abuse.
00:26:51.920 Tragically, it shouldn't be so.
00:26:53.560 But unfortunately, because you don't even know if everyone within a church is even a Christian, but because people fall and because people sin, unfortunately, things like this are going to happen.
00:27:04.860 And it's always sadder when it happens within the church than when it happens outside of the church, because we are supposed to be an example of love.
00:27:11.880 We are supposed to be the refuge for the children.
00:27:14.800 We are supposed to be led by a shepherd who protects the sheep.
00:27:18.040 There aren't supposed to be wolves among us.
00:27:20.040 There aren't supposed to be wolves among the flocks.
00:27:22.580 And unfortunately, not only are there wolves among the flocks, but also sometimes those wolves, again, are protected by the people who are supposed to be their shepherd.
00:27:30.420 And I do think that that is even worse than what happens in the outside world, because it causes a stumbling block.
00:27:39.460 It causes a scandalizo.
00:27:41.740 It causes a scandal that can cause people to distrust God.
00:27:45.680 Now, we understand that God is sovereign over people's salvation.
00:27:49.060 Of course, we believe that God is going to preserve his saints.
00:27:53.860 And we believe that it is the gospel that is good, that is Jesus who is perfect, that no entity, no denomination, no pastor, no leader is the centerpiece of or the keystone of our faith.
00:28:09.260 Christ alone holds that.
00:28:11.740 And yet, these leaders in the church, they are supposed to be representatives of Christ.
00:28:16.660 And when we fail in this way, not just when there's abuse, but when there's abuse cover-up, I mean, we really fail at the core mission of the church, which is to be a light of the gospel and also be a refuge, a safety for the most vulnerable.
00:28:31.740 And when we fail to do that, again, we cause a scandal.
00:28:34.440 We cause a stumbling block for that.
00:28:37.120 And so I just pray, by the grace of God, that God would use this report, that God would use this moment to help those within the SBC who need to repent, to repent, to ensure that there are systems and guardrails in place to protect victims, to prevent future victims, to listen to victims, and that people would have the courage to come forward.
00:29:03.380 And that we would stay rooted and grounded in the love of Christ and the truth of his scripture, which is sufficient in dealing with all of these things that we are talking about today.
00:29:17.960 It is sufficient in guiding us in the right direction toward accountability and justice for these egregious sins and crimes.
00:29:27.440 Now, one thing I will say before we get into the conversation with Tom Askell, and I just think it's worth noting, and I wasn't sure exactly where to put it in, but because some people are talking about it, I wanted to point it out.
00:29:39.880 Now, Guidepost Solutions, this is the organization that did the independent report on the sexual abuse allegations and the alleged cover-up.
00:29:49.340 And they did tweet just the other day on June 6th, a picture of the pride flag with the black and brown and then the rainbow, and tweeted,
00:30:00.100 Guidepost is committing to strengthening diversity, equity, and inclusion and strives to be an organization where a team can bring their authentic selves to work.
00:30:06.600 We celebrate our collective progress toward equality for all and are proud to be an ally to our LGBTQ plus community.
00:30:12.980 Now, I'm a little confused about this because you might not know this, but the SBC's tithing dollars, like tithing dollars from the SBC churches, went to the creation of this report, which was led by Guidepost Solutions.
00:30:27.840 And I was under the impression that Guidepost Solutions was a Christian organization.
00:30:33.020 I guess they're not.
00:30:34.680 And so I do think it's a little bit confusing that the SBC would hire this kind of independent organization that holds values that are completely opposed to the gospel,
00:30:44.140 that are completely opposed to everything that Christianity says is good and right and true, 0.94
00:30:48.300 and that our tithing dollars would be funding an organization like this.
00:30:54.680 So I do want to note that I understand people's complaint about that.
00:30:58.360 I have a complaint about that.
00:30:59.700 There seems like there could have been better options out there.
00:31:03.340 However, I don't think that this is a reason.
00:31:05.960 I'm not saying anyone is doing this, but just to note, I don't think this is a reason to discredit the findings that we see in the report.
00:31:14.280 I think it's a shame that this is the organization that was chosen and that they tweeted something that is opposed to what we know about biblical marriage and Christianity.
00:31:23.000 However, I don't think that this would be an excuse for us to look the other way and to say, well, this report is no longer credible.
00:31:30.780 Let us use discernment.
00:31:31.780 Let us use wisdom.
00:31:32.500 Let us ask for humility and grace for God to guide us in the right direction.
00:31:36.340 And let us pray for these victims and the victims' families who have had to deal with not just the pain of the experience,
00:31:43.240 but also the secrecy and the shame that has been placed on them, unfortunately.
00:31:46.400 And let us mature into Christ that reminded me of a passage that I just want to read before we get into the conversation with Pastor Askell.
00:32:01.740 And I think that this is what we should all be striving toward.
00:32:06.580 This is from Ephesians 4.
00:32:09.360 That's a big and high calling so that we may no longer be children.
00:32:33.980 That is the goal and the calling of the church.
00:33:01.160 Therefore, that is the goal and the calling of the SBC.
00:33:04.120 And may we pray for the manifestation of this as we go into the convention, the conference next week in which leadership will be chosen.
00:33:11.540 Let us pray for the direction of the largest Protestant denomination in the country that has an effect on the entirety of the world with its mission organizations.
00:33:21.000 We want people leading this denomination who are committed to making sure that the body of Christ grows so that it is building itself up in love.
00:33:35.340 Pastor, thank you so much for joining us.
00:33:37.960 Second time that you're joining us.
00:33:39.220 And today we are talking about the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention, your candidacy for the president of the Southern Baptist Convention.
00:33:49.180 First, tell us what is going on right now in the next few days in Anaheim, California, and why does it matter?
00:33:56.080 Well, in the Southern Baptist Convention, we're going to meet next week in Anaheim on the third.
00:34:01.860 Okay, got it.
00:34:03.160 Yeah, that's right.
00:34:04.480 So we're meeting next week in Anaheim, California.
00:34:06.280 We'll elect a new president and vice president and a new recording secretary and the new president of the Pastors Conference.
00:34:13.860 My friend Bodie Balkan is running for the Pastors Conference presidency.
00:34:17.200 And my friend Javier Chavez is running for the recording secretary position, which is a very important position in the SBC.
00:34:24.540 And as you probably are well aware of, Ali, you've talked about it.
00:34:27.860 I know you are.
00:34:28.520 The SBC has had a lot of problems over the last several years with these kind of cultural winds that have blown through all of the institutions of our nation and really Western civilization.
00:34:41.120 And churches have not been immune, and that's certainly true of Southern Baptist churches and more significantly of the institutions and agencies that the 47,000 Southern Baptist churches own and operate.
00:34:54.720 And so we've had lots of difficulties for years that have been building.
00:34:58.000 And then most recently with the Sex Abuse Task Force report that has come out over the last couple of weeks, it's just more difficulties have been uncovered.
00:35:08.520 And we are having a time of reckoning in the convention, and we are certainly being faced with the reality that we need to repent and return to a fear of the living God.
00:35:19.080 And that's my hope.
00:35:19.900 If God gives me opportunity to do so, I want to herald that message far and wide.
00:35:25.260 A lot of people think that this breaks down in the SBC as a fight between the liberal wing and the conservative wing.
00:35:32.760 Would you say that that's a correct assessment, or is it a little bit more complex than that?
00:35:38.520 Well, it's a complex issue because there's lots of things involved.
00:35:43.900 And as I've mentioned, these cultural winds and the ideologies from the world have crept in.
00:35:48.560 But beyond that, we have forsaken our own ecclesiology, that is, our own understanding of what the Bible calls a church to be and really what the Bible calls a Christian to be.
00:35:59.480 And so we need to do deep spiritual work and deep theological work as well as deep structural work in how we handle our institutions.
00:36:10.600 Like we have six seminaries, and those seminaries educate one-third of all the evangelical seminary students in North America.
00:36:18.000 We have two mission boards, and those mission boards constitute the largest missionary sending force in the world right now.
00:36:24.200 And so we have multiple layers to the Southern Mavs Convention.
00:36:27.560 Again, 14 million members in those 47,000-plus churches.
00:36:31.620 So you can imagine there's all kinds of complexities involved with the problems we face, assessing those problems honestly,
00:36:39.080 and then charting a course forward to address them that is faithful to the Word of God.
00:36:43.920 One of the biggest arguments or debates in the SBC over the past couple of years has been over social justice and what some people refer to as racial justice.
00:36:54.580 There are people within the SBC who say that there is a problem of certain leaders and pastors, churches embracing the tenets of critical race theory and intersectionality without, of course, using those terms.
00:37:08.700 And many of them deny that they are employing the tactics of CRT.
00:37:14.000 And then there's a wing of the SBC that, like I said, who either they deny the existence of CRT or they say, well, it is actually a useful tool.
00:37:25.160 It's a useful tool for studying the Bible.
00:37:27.360 There is actually some redemptive and legitimate aspects of CRT that do need to be employed in preaching and teaching the Word.
00:37:37.660 Just I know that we could talk about that alone for an hour, but just give me an assessment of where we are there.
00:37:45.380 Is that still a hot topic of debate within the SBC?
00:37:49.700 Well, there have been many people that have tried to sublimate it and keep it from being a debated topic.
00:37:55.900 As you know, in 2019, we had this resolution, infamously remembered as Resolution 9, that came to the floor of the convention.
00:38:05.000 That resolution was on critical race theory and intersectionality.
00:38:08.940 The original author of the resolution, a member of a church, actually a pastor in California, wrote it in order to renounce critical race theory and intersectionality.
00:38:18.980 The resolutions committee that J.D. Greer had appointed that year took that resolution, completely rewrote it to say 180 degrees opposite of what the author intended.
00:38:29.420 And then they presented it to the convention. I and others tried to fight against it.
00:38:34.040 I wanted to see it amended significantly. We were defeated on the floor by the platform and that resolution passed.
00:38:41.540 It's grievous that it passed. And it was called in the critical race theory was called, along with intersectionality, as helpful analytical tools.
00:38:49.440 Well, I've attempted since then to try to get that resolution rescinded or to have a vote on the floor of the convention to renounce it or to have another resolution.
00:39:01.500 We had 1300 Southern Baptists sign a resolution last year, submitted it to the committee.
00:39:06.820 The committee refused to bring it out. And so the problem about critical race theory and intersectionality, yeah, it still is an issue.
00:39:14.180 We're just we're not being allowed to talk about it. And so it's kind of been sublimated.
00:39:18.540 And what's happening, I fear, is that people are no longer willing to use the language because they recognize that doing so marks them out pretty significantly today.
00:39:28.040 But they're still imbibing the concepts and the principles and they're advocating those things.
00:39:33.260 And our establishment leaders in the SBC, those on the platform every annual meeting, they refuse to let us have an honest conversation about it.
00:39:42.240 So that's part of the reason that I allowed myself to be nominated for president this year.
00:39:47.600 So hopefully we can begin to at least talk about these things openly and honestly.
00:39:51.680 Yes. And you and I have both talked about this. You've talked about this very thoroughly.
00:39:55.680 What CRT and intersectionality looks like within Christianity from the pulpit, even if they are not using explicitly academic or Marxist language.
00:40:07.460 Can you talk about how that may show up for people who say, well, you know, I think that my pastor may peddle in this stuff, but I'm not totally sure because he's not outwardly quoting or explicitly quoting Ibram X.
00:40:22.660 Kendi or, you know, one of those authors or Karl Marx.
00:40:26.260 So what does that look like? And why is CRT not a tool that should be employed when trying to read and understand scripture?
00:40:37.660 Yeah, well, let me just cite Kevin DeYoung in a recent sermon he preached at the T4G conference.
00:40:42.280 He talked about people that came to his church and said that their pastor had said, you need to repent of your whiteness, that whiteness is a real problem.
00:40:49.700 And they're just they're shocked by that. Well, that kind of language is born out of the ideology that that is embedded in critical race theory and along with intersectionality.
00:41:01.180 So this idea that because of the color of your skin or because of your gender or because of your religion or your able bodiedness or whatever it might be,
00:41:11.120 you are either in an oppressed class or the oppressor class.
00:41:16.620 And so when you begin to hear things like this is, look, we need to acknowledge this majority culture.
00:41:21.980 We have been abusing the minority culture inevitably for generations. 1.00
00:41:26.120 This whole system has been rigged to benefit us, not them, to oppress them.
00:41:30.840 And we need to listen to these voices.
00:41:33.220 We need to recognize that the disparity in outcomes in our society are exclusively the fault of the oppressiveness of whiteness or the oppressiveness of the powers that be in majority culture. 0.89
00:41:48.180 This is what CRT says.
00:41:50.280 Absolutely.
00:41:51.320 Absolutely.
00:41:52.680 And particularly, I mean, CRT deals primarily or exclusively really with race issues, racial issues.
00:41:58.020 But it bleeds over into everything, to men-women issues, to adult-children issues, to issues of employers and employees.
00:42:05.900 I mean, there's no thing that is left untouched by it because it is a worldview.
00:42:11.600 And it's a worldview that doesn't just assess what is.
00:42:14.420 It's activistic.
00:42:15.800 Those who promote critical race theory, those who call themselves critical race theorists,
00:42:19.920 they tell you up front that we are seeking to deconstruct the hierarchies that are present in society because we think there is a more just way forward only as we do that.
00:42:33.040 And, again, it's the cultural winds of today.
00:42:35.800 It's the air we breathe.
00:42:37.140 And if you're not consciously standing against it, you're probably imbibing in it in ways that you may not even be aware of.
00:42:44.040 Yes, and there are conservative Christians, I would say otherwise conservative Christians, who I really like.
00:42:49.720 I have a lot of friends and probably a lot of listeners to this podcast who like them and listen to them,
00:42:55.100 who will say that they believe that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to CRT.
00:43:01.560 I mean, these are not people who are ignorant.
00:43:04.720 They are very smart people who love God.
00:43:07.120 And yet they will say, well, because CRT says some things that are true, we should try to redeem it.
00:43:14.060 We should try to, you know, spit out the bones, keep the meat, all that stuff.
00:43:18.720 But the reason why really that doesn't work is because of exactly what you just said.
00:43:23.100 It really is a holistic worldview.
00:43:25.600 And just because a worldview might say something that is true doesn't actually mean that we need to adopt some of it.
00:43:32.960 I'm sure that there are things that Buddhists believe, that Hindus believe that are true, 1.00
00:43:38.700 but they are only true insofar as they happen to echo scripture.
00:43:44.080 They happen to echo what God says is true.
00:43:47.160 So if that's the case, if CRT just happens coincidentally to echo something that God says is true,
00:43:52.780 which, for example, you could just say CRT says prejudice is real.
00:43:55.780 Okay, sure.
00:43:56.340 We agree that hate can happen, that injustice can happen, that laws can be unjust.
00:44:02.260 That doesn't make CRT something that needs to be redeemed.
00:44:05.880 That just means the Bible said it first.
00:44:08.180 That just means that scripture said it first, that the creator of truth and justice said it first.
00:44:11.900 So we don't need, we don't need the meat that comes with CRT if scripture has already spoken to the things that we are saying CRT speaks to, correct?
00:44:20.920 That's exactly right.
00:44:23.360 And when people do that and they say, well, we believe this part of CRT, not that part of CRT,
00:44:28.300 what I usually respond with within what you believe is not CRT because they don't let you chop it up that way.
00:44:34.160 And you need to think more carefully about those issues.
00:44:37.360 And to your question about why is this incompatible with the gospel or with the word of God?
00:44:41.800 Well, the Bible teaches that we have real unity as the human race.
00:44:46.400 First of all, every person is made in the image of God.
00:44:49.800 It doesn't matter what your ethnicity, doesn't matter what your sex is or your age or anything else.
00:44:54.700 All of us are God's image bearers.
00:44:57.180 And therefore, we are worthy of dignity and respect because we've been created in God's image.
00:45:02.720 But we're also unified in sin.
00:45:05.000 And all of us have sinned in our first father, Adam.
00:45:08.040 And so sin is the universal condition of every person.
00:45:11.360 Those that might be classified as oppressors or oppressed or whatever.
00:45:14.420 For what is fundamentally important about us is that we are all one in sin.
00:45:18.640 And then by God's grace, because of what he did for us in sending his son, the Lord Jesus,
00:45:23.200 to take sin upon himself and to suffer in behalf of sinners so that all who trust in him can be reconciled to God and have sin forgiven.
00:45:31.160 By grace, all Christians are one.
00:45:34.100 We're unified.
00:45:34.840 There's not male or female or Greek or Jew or slave or free. 0.63
00:45:38.500 We're one in Christ.
00:45:40.420 And that unity, those unities are completely destroyed whenever you start talking in terms of critical race theory and intersectionality,
00:45:49.680 which are inherently divisive and inherently designed to set different people against each other when we should see the unity that we have because of God and the Lord Jesus.
00:46:01.080 CRT gets human nature wrong.
00:46:04.260 It gets the definition of sin wrong.
00:46:06.200 And we could go into everything that it believes that is contrary to Scripture.
00:46:10.600 It has really its own eschatology.
00:46:12.840 It has its own soteriology.
00:46:14.940 I mean, all of it.
00:46:15.960 It really is a religion and a worldview, as you said.
00:46:18.540 I do want to get your response, which I'm sure you have already put out there.
00:46:26.640 You have already put out there your response to the guidepost report about sexual abuse within the SBC over the past several decades.
00:46:36.980 How should we be thinking of this as Southern Baptists, as people who hate sexual abuse, as people who believe, as you said, that everyone is made in the image of God and any kind of deceit or dishonesty or abuse is something that grieves us.
00:46:49.920 So how do we look at this honestly with repentant hearts and make a way forward from this?
00:46:56.700 What are your thoughts?
00:46:57.660 Yeah, well, again, this is a very complex issue, but fundamentally, any situation, any occasion where somebody has been mistreated, sexually abused, that is reprehensible.
00:47:11.920 We ought to hate it.
00:47:13.020 We ought to do whatever we can to keep that from happening.
00:47:15.060 When it's discovered, we need to deal with it the way God has called us to deal with it.
00:47:19.300 So I want to say that from the outset.
00:47:20.740 The guidepost report has revealed hundreds of cases that they discovered or they say they discovered, but they're most of them public and most of them have already been adjudicated in the court system.
00:47:31.700 So most of the people that they name in their list are serving time or they've already been dealt with by the judicial system, which is right.
00:47:40.580 However, they did uncover some things that none of us knew about, and they showed some ways that perhaps these issues were not dealt with the way they should have been dealt with by Christians and want to honor God.
00:47:50.740 And so the way forward for me and for all Christians, I would hope, is that we must come back to what does the word say?
00:47:58.020 God has instituted authority in this world.
00:48:01.440 He's given the keys of the kingdom to the church so that we might deal with sin and righteousness in the church.
00:48:07.680 Whenever there's unrepentant sin in the church, he's told us what to do.
00:48:11.440 Churches are to carry out the Lord Jesus's admonitions in Matthew chapter 18, where he tells us what to do with those who call themselves Christians, members of our churches who refuse to repent. 1.00
00:48:23.740 We are to do what Jesus says to do with them there, exercise the keys.
00:48:27.700 The state is God's authority to deal with crimes.
00:48:31.240 And Romans 13 very clearly tells us that the state is to punish wrongdoers.
00:48:35.440 They are wrongdoers.
00:48:36.160 They are God's avenger.
00:48:37.900 They carry out the wrath of God in meeting out justice in this fallen world.
00:48:43.920 They don't do it perfectly.
00:48:44.880 The church doesn't do it perfectly.
00:48:46.600 But both of us, church and state, have responsibilities.
00:48:49.680 We have lanes.
00:48:50.700 The church is to deal with sins, and the state is to deal with crimes.
00:48:54.740 And the church can't adjudicate crimes, and the state can't adjudicate sins.
00:49:00.800 And I think what's happened is sometimes in our Southern Baptist life together, as this report did make known, that I think sometimes there were some Southern Baptist leaders who tried to adjudicate crimes when they should have called the state and said, we've got a crime here.
00:49:17.540 You investigate it.
00:49:18.800 And that needs to be done.
00:49:20.060 And so the way forward, in my hope, is that Southern Baptists will recognize how badly we have handled these things, not just in sexual abuse issues, but across the board, that we'll humble ourselves and say, oh, God, we call ourselves a people of the book.
00:49:35.360 But in reality, we have neglected your book.
00:49:37.720 We have not lived simply under the authority of Scripture.
00:49:40.580 And we repent, and we ask you to have mercy on us, and we will start treating sin the way the Bible tells us to treat sin.
00:49:47.240 We'll start treating crimes the way the Bible tells us to deal with crimes, and we will care for people who've been sinned against and who have been abused.
00:49:55.620 And we will do that according to the grace that is in Jesus Christ, counseling, helping them to find the healing, the wholeness that is available in our crucified and risen Savior.
00:50:05.300 We have a book.
00:50:06.800 It's not complicated.
00:50:09.700 It's just going to be really hard, and it's going to require repentance and faith.
00:50:13.740 But I am very confident that, by God's grace, we can go forward on that pathway.
00:50:18.880 And practically, what does that look like in your day-to-day if you were president of the SBC?
00:50:25.320 How exactly do you lead the convention in that direction?
00:50:29.440 What are some action items that you have on your list that you would want to check off?
00:50:35.200 Sure.
00:50:35.880 Well, the presidency of the SBC is a voluntary responsibility.
00:50:41.120 There's only a few specific tasks that are given to the president.
00:50:45.380 So there's not widespread actions that a president of the SBC can take.
00:50:49.920 Beyond that, though, it is a bully pulpit.
00:50:52.200 It is a place from which you can speak and be heard as the president of the SBC.
00:50:56.660 So the kind of conversation you and I are having, I would want to have that amplified.
00:51:00.620 Time's over.
00:51:01.220 I would want to speak as a pastor to the more than 47,000 pastors of our churches and say,
00:51:06.120 Brothers, we need to repent.
00:51:08.100 We need to look at this together.
00:51:09.480 Let's get honest before God and realize Hebrews 13, 17 tells us we're going to give an account before God on the day of judgment for how we shepherded this flock that he's entrusted to our care and leadership.
00:51:19.680 And that would be, I think, as significant as anything.
00:51:23.020 There will most likely be next week in Anaheim some proposals adopted by the messengers.
00:51:29.320 And if so, those might include something that would instruct the president on things to do in terms of appointing a new task force or appointing those that would guide us and bring recommendations next year for specific proposals.
00:51:42.360 So a lot of that, we don't know.
00:51:44.700 We'll just have to wait and see.
00:51:46.180 But without a doubt, I think if God would be pleased to use me and others who believe this as well, to begin to sound this note that we need to repent.
00:51:56.660 We need to come face to face with the reality that we wouldn't be living this way.
00:52:01.280 These kinds of things would not be going on and treated so lightly if we genuinely feared God.
00:52:07.000 And we need to repent and come back to that.
00:52:09.180 I don't believe we have one problem in the SBC that could not be solved by a genuine return to the fear of the living God.
00:52:17.460 And if the Lord would do that, then we'll work out the details on these specifics in that spirit.
00:52:23.720 And tell us a little bit more just about the mechanics of how this works for people who are listening, who go to SBC churches.
00:52:31.400 Most of us, I mean, we know how it's set up.
00:52:34.960 It's not like the Catholic church to where it is all uniform hierarchy.
00:52:39.080 And so a lot of people who go to SBC churches, they don't know anything about the convention.
00:52:43.920 They don't know anything about the SBC president.
00:52:46.240 That's kind of how it's set up.
00:52:47.760 But they're listening to this and they're realizing, OK, this is important for the direction of my denomination.
00:52:53.020 How do they figure out how this works?
00:52:55.140 What's involved?
00:52:56.000 Who the messengers from their churches?
00:52:58.260 How does that work?
00:53:00.060 Yeah, well, I would say, first of all, talk to the leadership of your church, you know, talk to your pastor and say, hey, help me understand this.
00:53:05.860 Are we sending messengers?
00:53:07.120 One of the sad realities is that though we have 47,000 churches in the SBC on any given year for our two day business meeting that's held each June around the nation, it moves around the nation.
00:53:20.400 We never have more than eight or nine thousand churches represented.
00:53:23.360 Every Southern Baptist church is eligible to send two messengers, voting messengers, and you can send more up to 12, depending on how much money you have contributed to joint Southern Baptist causes.
00:53:34.480 The churches own our seminaries.
00:53:36.560 We have six of them.
00:53:37.340 They own the institutions and agencies like the North American Mission Board and the International Mission Board.
00:53:43.020 And we elect trustees every year on a rotating basis to hold those institutions and agencies accountable to the churches.
00:53:50.120 But another problem that we have that we've got to address in the SBC right now is that those trustees very often have not been doing their jobs.
00:53:58.260 Sometimes the trustees come across like they're unpaid public relations departments for the institutions and agencies so that when, as I've done recently, trying to address trustees, you get a response of kind of circle the wagons.
00:54:12.040 The institution's fine.
00:54:13.160 You need to be quiet and go back to your place.
00:54:15.340 And that's not the way it's supposed to be done.
00:54:17.000 So one of my proposals is we need to completely restructure how we train trustees so that they understand their fiduciary responsibilities and holding the entities in trust for the churches that bought them and paid for them.
00:54:29.780 We have a website that we've established called wehaveabook.com.
00:54:33.520 Wehaveabook.com.
00:54:34.740 And on that website, it will walk you through how you can become a messenger from your Southern Baptist church.
00:54:40.260 And I know it's late.
00:54:41.120 I know Anaheim's far for most of us and it's expensive, but it matters.
00:54:45.400 It matters.
00:54:46.060 What happens to the SBC matters far beyond the SBC.
00:54:50.140 It will impact our culture.
00:54:51.860 It will impact the nations because we export our Christianity through missions. 1.00
00:54:57.280 And it's only as we are healthy that we can have great hope of seeing the gospel run through healthy channels around the world.
00:55:04.180 So I would plead with all Southern Baptist churches and pastors, even if you've never been to a convention, go to wehaveabook.com and figure out how to sign up as a messenger.
00:55:14.020 Because it has to be a process followed.
00:55:15.680 It's not complicated.
00:55:16.680 It's pretty simple.
00:55:17.720 And then bite the bullet and get out to Anaheim, California.
00:55:21.440 And let's vote to change the direction of the SBC for the welfare of the work of the gospel throughout the world.
00:55:26.980 Well, thank you, Pastor, so much.
00:55:29.000 Thanks for taking the time to come on and explain all of that to us and explain your heart behind your candidacy.
00:55:34.440 I'm excited to see what comes of this next week.
00:55:36.680 I will be paying attention and I know my listeners will, too.
00:55:39.260 Thank you so much.
00:55:41.080 Thank you, Allie.
00:55:41.940 Appreciate all that you do.
00:55:42.940 Thanks.
00:55:43.560 God bless.