Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 632 ｜ Why This NBA Player Refused to Kneel for BLM ｜ Guest： Jonathan Isaac

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. This episode, as all episodes, is brought to you by our friends

00:00:04.200 at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for American meat delivered. That's 0.95

00:00:09.100 goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I am so excited for you to hear this conversation

00:00:24.220 with our friend Jonathan Isaac. He is a player for the Orlando Magic. This is the second time we're

00:00:31.780 having him on. Today, we are talking about his new book, Why I Stand. It is doing so well. There's a

00:00:38.260 reason for that. He has an incredible story, an incredible testimony. If you heard him on the

00:00:43.340 first time on Relatable last year, you've heard a little bit about how he came to Christ, but this

00:00:49.520 book details that a lot further. We are talking about that some today. I know you're going to

00:00:55.440 walk away from this conversation feeling so encouraged and uplifted and just touched by

00:01:01.380 his vulnerability, his willingness to share his struggles, and also his insistence upon

00:01:09.760 pointing to the power and the faithfulness of God. I'm just really looking forward to you

00:01:17.980 hearing from him again. I will pat Relatable on the back just a little bit because I believe we were

00:01:24.880 the first show to talk to him last year when he was taking a stand against the vaccine mandates.

00:01:31.560 And of course, we also talked about the stand that he took in 2020 when he decided not to kneel in

00:01:39.240 honor of the Black Lives Matter organization on the sideline of his NBA game. So just as a

00:01:47.960 refresher, that's who Jonathan Isaac is. That is why we talked to him last year. And that is

00:01:54.260 part of why we are talking to him today. What was he thinking as he was taking those stands that he knew

00:02:00.440 would be controversial? So as I said, this is going to be awesome. If you're not familiar with him,

00:02:07.080 you're going to love him. So without further ado, here is our friend Jonathan Isaac.

00:02:12.540 Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us in person. This is the second time that you're on the show.

00:02:20.620 And this time we are talking about the book that you told me about the first time you were on the

00:02:25.740 show. So tell us a little bit more about the book now that it's published and out there. What is it

00:02:31.440 about? Why did you write it? Well, first off, thank you so much for having me, Allie. This is a pleasure.

00:02:35.680 Yeah. I mean, the book-wise thing, it's doing fantastic. So it became a national bestseller,

00:02:41.640 I think this week, earlier this week. Number one in basketball biographies on Amazon. Number 20,

00:02:47.540 as of right now, in Christian books and Bibles. Number 23 in politics and government. Number nine

00:02:52.380 on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list. That's all a really big deal. I mean,

00:02:56.220 there's a lot of competition in those categories. And we were even higher earlier in the week. So we got

00:03:00.980 to like one in Christian books, one in politics, one in basketball biographies, and I think like

00:03:05.320 up to 15 on Amazon altogether. So yes, absolutely. But yeah, it's just been great. Like hearing people

00:03:11.180 talk about how well they're enjoying the book and how it's encouraging them and empowering them and

00:03:16.360 all those different things. It's like, it's so surreal for me. But the book is so much more than

00:03:20.980 just about me standing in the bubble or me refusing a vaccine. It really is a story of my journey,

00:03:26.100 how the heck I got there in the first place, the people that have been along the journey with me,

00:03:29.920 how I was able to develop courage and belief through a relationship with Christ that has

00:03:35.020 helped me to battle anxiety, fear, insecurity. And I really think it is a roadmap for people today

00:03:40.180 to stand up for what they believe in and to see that the reason I said that Jesus Christ was the

00:03:44.880 answer for the world is because he's been that answer for me. And so that's why the book is here.

00:03:49.520 Yeah. I don't want to rehash everything that we talked about in the first interview. People can go

00:03:54.620 back and listen to that. But I do want to back up a little bit for those who don't know your story.

00:04:01.400 Tell us how you came to Christ. Were you raised in a Christian home? Have you always been a Christian?

00:04:06.980 What did that look like for you?

00:04:08.500 So I was raised in a Christian home and we were in church. It felt like every single day.

00:04:13.780 My parents split up when I was about 10 years old and I moved from Bronx, New York,

00:04:17.880 which is I was predominantly black community to Naples, Florida, which is predominantly white.

00:04:21.980 Yeah. And I really, really struggled as a kid. And so trying to fit in, trying to get people to like

00:04:27.640 me, I became really self-conscious and, you know, developed a level of anxiety. I picked up a nickname

00:04:33.920 Ethiopia early on and me, you know, being in Naples, Florida, and it just sucked. It was hard for me to

00:04:39.560 make friends. And so I developed that insecurity and fear about getting people to like me.

00:04:44.060 Was it mostly the racial component that made you stand out? Was it because you were from the Bronx and

00:04:49.440 that's just like a totally different culture in place? What was it that made you feel excluded or

00:04:53.900 what was the reason why?

00:04:55.380 I think it was, it was, it was all of it. So it was definitely just a cultural change of like,

00:04:59.860 okay, I need to make the first step in trying to get these people like me. And then there obviously

00:05:04.240 was the racial undertone of being called Ethiopia that kind of kind of moved me, you know, to the

00:05:08.880 side. And then just, just failing at it. So there's a, there's a story earlier in the book where

00:05:13.260 I'm so used to horse playing because I come from the Bronx. That's what we do with it. That's how you make

00:05:17.420 friends, you horseplay. And then you guys are buddies. But when I did it in Naples, Florida,

00:05:21.140 I got in trouble. And so I'm in the principal's office. My mom gets called and the principal is

00:05:25.660 actually like scared for the kid's wellbeing. And that's when I was like, Oh man, I'm not,

00:05:30.820 I'm not what I thought I was, you know? And it just didn't work out. And so that's hard. That's

00:05:35.600 hard for like your self perception too. You go from like roughhousing, cause that's a normal thing that

00:05:40.220 you do to basically being cast as a bad kid or a danger to the community. That's gotta be really

00:05:46.320 hard for a kid and understanding who they are and how they fit in.

00:05:49.780 Exactly. Absolutely. And so, uh, so then I find basketball. So I find basketball and I start to

00:05:57.640 fall in love with basketball, but at the same time, I'm falling in love with everything that

00:06:01.240 basketball is getting me. So the friends that now want to be around me because I've become a,

00:06:05.960 you know, a talented basketball player, the girls are starting to talk to me and like me because of 0.99

00:06:09.680 the game. And so I started to shape my identity around basketball, that that is the,

00:06:14.160 that's the best thing about me. It's the only thing that, that about me, that there's value in.

00:06:18.880 And so I pushed forward 100% and I became the number one player in the state of Florida,

00:06:23.480 but still dealing with those same anxieties and fears behind the scenes to where I would play well

00:06:28.820 and I'm on top of the world. Everybody loves me. And then I would be so nervous about playing well

00:06:32.860 again, because I didn't want to lose that love that I had gained. And so, uh, so it was just,

00:06:37.200 it was just a struggle all through middle school, all through high school. I make it to Florida State,

00:06:40.980 um, you know, as the, you know, most highly touted recruit in some 40 years.

00:06:45.520 And, uh, uh, yeah, I get there and it's the same, it's the same struggle, but now it's like on a

00:06:49.960 bigger stage. And now I have these big anxiety episodes to where like I pass out in class,

00:06:55.200 I pass out during breakfast, like something like that.

00:06:57.760 Cause you were so, you were kind of in this very precarious position that you felt like if you

00:07:04.020 made the wrong move or you did something wrong, not only would you fail professionally, athletically,

00:07:09.160 but you felt like your whole identity and purpose would crumble. That's a huge burden to carry.

00:07:14.440 Yes, absolutely. And it was, it was interesting because it was all like undercurrent to where on

00:07:19.120 the, on the surface, I'm, I'm Jonathan Isaac. I'm, I'm this great basketball player and everybody

00:07:23.040 loves me for that. But underneath is that these things are like kind of trembling, you know,

00:07:27.400 underneath the surface. And then I had those big moments where it kind of just exploded.

00:07:30.880 And all of that is detailed in the book as well. And then I get to, I leave Florida State and then

00:07:35.280 I make it to the NBA. I'm the sixth pick in the NBA draft. And now it's even, it's like you're going

00:07:39.340 from stage to stage. Now it's even, it's an even bigger stage. And, uh, I get injured early on so

00:07:44.980 that that sucks. I'm going through these things behind the scenes. And then the book takes you

00:07:49.280 through the story of ultimately me really coming to Christ because growing up in church, it was just,

00:07:53.880 uh, it was just tradition. It wasn't something that was tangible. I didn't know that a relationship

00:07:57.520 with Jesus could be something that was tangible. Um, and then I meet a gentleman on the elevator

00:08:02.120 who says, I can tell you how to be great. And there's a lot of backstory to this, but if I take

00:08:06.000 you through the whole thing, it's going to take up the whole podcast. But, um, and it was just,

00:08:09.100 it was just kind of like a random person who shared the gospel with you. Yes. He said, I can tell you

00:08:13.300 how to be great. And I said, how? He said, you have to know Jesus. And I'm like, man, I know Jesus, whatever.

00:08:18.340 Um, and then the story just goes on this whirlwind of like, God pretty much orchestrating

00:08:22.880 our steps and me meeting him over and over again. And just the crazy coincidences to where I'm like,

00:08:27.880 you know what? God is real. And the biggest thing that caught my eye was that just not,

00:08:32.780 just not that God was real. It was that he loved me because in order for him to come after me,

00:08:37.640 I wasn't checking for him. I was doing my own thing, but in order for him to, to want to orchestrate

00:08:41.800 my footsteps, he had to care. And that was the first time that I could breathe. Cause I was so used to

00:08:46.580 being high strung and anxious about getting people to like me, but he was this God that loved me for

00:08:51.140 me and I didn't have to perform for it. I didn't have to work for it. And that was the start of

00:08:55.740 me getting to where I am today. Yeah. Tell us how that has changed your, your career and because

00:09:03.060 you're still successful, but would you say that that anxiety to keep up a certain level of success

00:09:10.220 in order to please other people and be accepted and approved of by other people? How has, how has

00:09:15.880 that feeling and that anxiety changed since you've had this realization that God loves you for you?

00:09:21.900 Yeah. And I w I would also say that it's a process. So coming to that understanding is like, Oh yeah,

00:09:27.080 God loves me for me. But then what happens when you, when you fail again and you're like, does God love

00:09:31.100 me for me? Um, but the, a huge part of it was the people that were in my life. So all detail through the

00:09:36.920 book, you have my wife, Takeda, um, you have Dr. Hepburn, which becomes, you know, Bishop Dr.

00:09:41.860 Hepburn, my pastor, the same guy that met me in the elevator and told me that Jesus was going to help

00:09:45.580 me be great. Um, that I had to know Jesus in order to be great. Those people were the ones that were

00:09:49.780 able to walk me through the process of being loved unconditionally and not for what you could do,

00:09:54.600 not for what you could give them, but just for who you were, um, and helping you get to, you know,

00:09:59.000 grow into the person that God created you to be. And so I had, I had people to walk me through it and then,

00:10:05.000 you know, being able to not rely on the thoughts of others and, and, and the feelings of others,

00:10:10.100 but almost, you know, just focusing on that audience of one of being Christ and wanting

00:10:13.460 to please him has ultimately led me to being willing to stand alone in a moment where I had

00:10:18.300 a lot riding against me. Yeah. And you know, that is the thing that is different. That's what sets

00:10:23.540 Christianity apart is that there are many religions that can tell you how to get to God, 1.00

00:10:28.700 how to climb up the mountain, but Christianity stands apart in that it tells us that we are actually 0.97

00:10:34.100 unable to get up the mountain. We're actually unable to make our way to God or to perform a

00:10:39.060 certain way so that God will accept us. But God came down the mountain. He did something for us

00:10:44.520 because we were unable to make ourselves acceptable in and of ourselves. And that really is so liberating

00:10:51.820 and so different, um, than the other religions of performance out there.

00:10:57.500 And that really is the crux of the book. And so when people are reading my story and they're reading

00:11:02.900 about why did this guy stand in the bubble and why is his message about the love of Jesus Christ is

00:11:07.500 really going to be the thing that changes the world. It's because I've experienced that love

00:11:10.900 that you're talking about, that God came down to us and met us where we were at and ultimately helped

00:11:15.860 us work to where we are today. And so that's, that's what I want people to walk away from the

00:11:20.120 book that if we could choose to love people the way that God loves us, which is in spite of our sin,

00:11:26.160 in spite of our, uh, failures and shortcomings that meets us where we're at and loves us through it,

00:11:30.680 then we can really see change in the world. It's not going to be a movement. It's not going to be

00:11:34.440 an organization because the things that we're dealing with are heart issues. And, you know,

00:11:38.720 even standing in the bubble, I couldn't think of a greater message to change the hearts of men

00:11:42.760 other than the gospel for that time. And that's why I decided to, to stand.

00:11:47.580 And really how people first heard about you and heard you share the gospel was because you did stand

00:11:55.140 instead of kneeling, um, a couple of years ago when people were protesting in the name of

00:12:02.020 Black Lives Matter. Um, can you tell us how the gospel that you just described influences how you

00:12:09.860 view Black Lives Matter and why you chose in that instance, not to kneel? You did explain how you

00:12:17.780 experienced racial prejudice growing up. So it's not like you don't believe that that's something 1.00

00:12:22.640 that exists. So why did you, why did you decide to, um, take a stand in that moment?

00:12:29.200 That's a great question. And even to your point about the undertones of being,

00:12:32.580 having experienced that in the past. And so it's like, you know, why is this Black guy standing up 0.96

00:12:37.380 and not kneeling with everybody else that's kneeling and he's Black, obviously, um, and has

00:12:41.700 experienced some of those things in the past. But, um, back to what I was saying about them being heart

00:12:47.280 issues. When you take racism, when you take all the different things that plague the hearts of men,

00:12:50.740 their heart issues and their spiritual issues. And our world in times of tragedy, like George Floyd

00:12:56.460 needs healing. And when you think about healing, healing is not for, for me, understanding that

00:13:01.180 healing is not going to come through a movement unless the movement is centered around Christ.

00:13:05.100 Because again, those are heart issues that only the gospel can heal. And so, um, when our world needs

00:13:09.820 healings, I'm thinking about love. Love is the thing that heals. And there's no greater love than the

00:13:14.340 love of God because the world loves you until you make a mistake, until you do something wrong. But we were

00:13:19.180 talking about that God unconditional love that meets you where you're at, that loves first,

00:13:23.900 um, and loves in spite of, to me, if we were able to, to, you know, internalize that love and show it

00:13:30.500 in a moment, like George Floyd's tragedy, then both sides could come together and there could be real

00:13:35.340 reconciliation and change. And even thinking about the, the verse second Chronicles seven and 14,

00:13:40.500 it says, if my people who are called by my name would humble themselves, seek my face,

00:13:45.180 pray and turn from their wicked ways. I will come forgive their sins and heal their land.

00:13:50.740 And so seeing that while in times like this and times like today, looking at America needs healing.

00:13:55.920 And if we could humble ourselves, turn from our wicked ways and point people to Christ,

00:13:59.880 um, in these moments of tragedy, then we could have real change.

00:14:03.640 And another moment for you where you took an unpopular stand that got you some blowback was about

00:14:10.420 the vaccine. And we talked about that in our first interview, but some people might not even know

00:14:16.040 that that was a stand that you took. Tell us since we talked, I think it was maybe in October,

00:14:20.260 how it has been, um, in the NBA, since you are someone who didn't take the vaccine.

00:14:26.680 It's, it was a whirlwind, like as everyone, you know, the world just kind of stopped.

00:14:31.880 It paused and everyone was, there was so much fear that was being pushed and spewed to all areas.

00:14:38.060 So, you know, the NBA shuts everything down and they're, you know, we're running around like

00:14:42.120 chickens with our head cuts off. Like what's the right thing to do? What's the right protocol to

00:14:45.580 put in place? What's the right thing to mitigate what's going on? Um, and, and it just, it felt,

00:14:51.080 it felt forced, you know, especially coming, you know, not, not necessarily at that time,

00:14:54.620 but as we learned more about COVID and got into the vaccine conversation, it, everything felt so

00:14:59.520 forced, everything felt so pushed upon and you couldn't even ask questions. And so I, as I was on social

00:15:04.480 media and Twitter and watching people ask about natural immunity and be taken off or something

00:15:08.680 like that, what is going on? And so that's when I decided, you know what, I'm just going to take

00:15:12.680 a step back. I'm going to watch and see what happens. Um, and then that, you know, we talked

00:15:16.260 about the Rolling Stone article the first time we spoke and that was the kind of thing that set me

00:15:19.940 back and was like, wow, this obviously is more than about a vaccine. This is political. This is,

00:15:24.980 you know, about an agenda and a side. And I was like, you know what, you know, I'm going to choose

00:15:28.560 to side with the people who are having their religious and medical exemptions denied and people who are

00:15:32.680 losing their jobs and to stand up and be a voice for them. You know, it's not saying that the vaccine

00:15:36.340 is terrible and it's awful and it doesn't have some, you know, it can work or benefit, but, um,

00:15:41.660 on principle, I, I didn't, I didn't enjoy the way that it was being pushed. And again, for myself,

00:15:46.080 I'm young, I'm healthy. I already had COVID in the past. I had already spoken to several doctors

00:15:50.960 about it. And I was like, you know, I don't see the wisdom in putting this into my body. Um,

00:15:55.400 risking having some type of possible, you know, adverse reaction and still being possible to get the,

00:16:00.300 the, the, the virus and transmitted anyway. But you were discriminated against in some ways

00:16:06.260 because of that choice, right? For sure. There was definitely blowback. And the same thing with the,

00:16:10.900 with standing in the bubble and I knew it going into it. And so in the book, I'm, I'm on the phone

00:16:16.060 with my pastor the night before standing and I'm like, yo, this thing is going to be crazy. I don't

00:16:20.280 think you understand. Like I hadn't signed my contract yet. There were so many things that were

00:16:23.900 up in the air that was like, I know the backlash. I know I'm going to be a coon. I know I'm going to be 0.64

00:16:27.600 uncle Tom. It's going to happen. And then getting called those names for sure, for sure. But getting

00:16:32.360 to, and then getting to the vaccine, it's like the same thing. You're, you're an evil person, 0.99

00:16:36.620 even if you have any hesitation or questions about taking this vaccine. And so, yeah. 0.98

00:16:42.260 Yeah. So, but for like the NBA, you were kind of, you were treated differently, right?

00:16:47.860 They, they had different, um, you know, rules and regulations for people that were unvaccinated.

00:16:52.740 You had to test every day. And so I had to get to the gym, wait in my car, um, until

00:16:57.620 my test came back negative. And then I could enter the building. Um, they had, they had

00:17:01.440 put out like this, this, I guess, chart of saying, if you're unvaccinated, you couldn't

00:17:04.660 eat with your teammates, be in the locker room. But you know, those, those, they weren't

00:17:08.360 necessarily upheld during the season. Scott was still able to, but they definitely, I

00:17:11.780 definitely felt the pressure of them trying to say, look, if you don't do this, um, or we're

00:17:16.880 going to put all these rules in place to encourage you to just get vaccinated. And I think

00:17:20.400 there were several guys who maybe had not wanted to get vaccinated, but was just like,

00:17:23.980 you know what? I don't want to go through all this.

00:17:25.940 Yeah. And do you, do they still have those rules now?

00:17:28.260 No, no. So they, they, they stopped the mask mandate like on the bench or something like

00:17:32.720 that. So players had to come out of the game, you know, was on the bench with the mask on,

00:17:37.380 take the mask off, go into the game, get out of the game, put the mask back on to sit

00:17:40.580 on the bench. And so there were, there was stuff like that where I could understand the,

00:17:43.920 the craziness of the moment and them just trying to figure out what we need to do to help

00:17:47.320 this be better. But at the same time, on the other side, just the illogical, um, you know,

00:17:51.680 measures that, you know, not only them, but just, you know, people all over the country

00:17:54.680 were taking.

00:18:06.600 You mentioned, um, your wife and how she has been instrumental in your faith and she's here.

00:18:12.360 And I love that we were just talking before the camera started rolling. What a difference it makes

00:18:16.020 to have your person with you and really support you. You're a newlyweds. Y'all have been married

00:18:20.500 just for a few months. Um, tell us what that has been like her being kind of by your side,

00:18:25.760 not just in your faith journey, but also in the explosion of this book, all of the things that

00:18:30.840 you've experienced over the past couple of years. Um, what's that been like? What has it meant to you

00:18:35.620 to have her with you?

00:18:36.760 Well, seven months and she's here right now, um, along with doc. Um, but yeah, it's just,

00:18:41.480 it's just been, it's just been great. You know, she's just been a, an amazing support system and

00:18:45.960 encouragement. And through the book, I detail how we, how we got into a relationship in the first

00:18:50.160 place and how she was integral in me becoming who I am today and, and speaking that life and

00:18:55.140 encouragement and loving me where I was at and helping me to, you know, to become or to see myself

00:18:59.900 the way that they see me and the way that God sees me. And so she's just been, she's just been

00:19:03.840 great. She's been answering emails and setting up appointments and just making sure that everything 0.71

00:19:08.060 goes smoothly. So I wouldn't be able to do any of this without her.

00:19:11.220 Yeah. That makes a huge difference. What do you hope that people get out of the book? If there's

00:19:16.400 one thing that you want someone to walk away with, what do you hope that is?

00:19:21.180 I would say that, um, as the world gets darker, um, the necessity for, to be able to stand up for what

00:19:28.060 you believe in, to stand on the word of God is only going to become more necessary, but also at the same

00:19:32.480 time, it's only going to become harder and we're going to have to be empowered and courageous enough

00:19:37.400 to do it. And I'm hoping that my story gives people that encouragement in order to do so,

00:19:42.300 to see that I wasn't some hotshot that had courage all day long and was able to just stand up and

00:19:47.320 I'm not going to kneel for this because I'm, because I believe in God so heavily. I'm a kid who

00:19:51.840 has grown into a man through a relationship with Christ and the people who have helped me to get

00:19:55.440 here, um, and found the courage in the moment to do so. And so that I'd say that's the biggest thing

00:20:00.100 that I would, I would want people to just get the journey, get the story. Um, and that what God has

00:20:04.360 done for me, God absolutely wants to do through you. And you know, the, the, the, the harvest is

00:20:09.180 plentiful, but the labor is a few. And if we're willing to stand up, we can, you know, take back,

00:20:13.600 you know, a lot of the things that the enemy is running rampant, allowing to happen. And we can be,

00:20:18.220 we can be vigilant about, about fighting it and combating it.

00:20:21.080 And that comes with risk. There's not a guarantee that you won't be canceled, that you won't be

00:20:25.740 persecuted, that people won't call you names. Thankfully you have had so much success come

00:20:32.360 from it. And so much, I'm sure support and encouragement from people who are kind of,

00:20:36.540 um, who share your faith and share your stances on these things. But I think people have to also

00:20:43.020 recognize that just because God is on your side and taking a stand does not mean there won't be

00:20:48.420 loss, does not mean there won't be sacrifice. Right. And that takes a whole other level of courage.

00:20:53.880 Yeah. But to your point, what I'll say is that the story about me, you know, having the success

00:20:59.600 is, is, is great too. But one of the things that my pastor said to me the night before I stood was

00:21:04.120 you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you. So you may have, you may, you may have monetary

00:21:10.000 loss because you could cancel. You may have loss in some other area, but you'll, you'll gain in

00:21:15.080 eternity, right? Like you'll, you'll gain in other ways because God is going to fight for you because

00:21:19.440 you're standing for him. So take, take Daniel, take, you know, me, Shaq, Shaq, and it'd be like,

00:21:23.840 you cannot stand for God and God is not going to be there to stand for you in whatever area he

00:21:28.040 chooses to do so, but it will be great. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And my researcher said, I don't

00:21:35.020 really know what this means. Maybe you can interpret this for me. She said you're doing well

00:21:39.640 on like on fantasy teams. What is that? What is fantasy basketball? People, uh, so I guess just,

00:21:47.700 uh, like 2k, uh, fantasy leagues and stuff like that. You can pick which fantasy draft. Okay. So

00:21:53.840 yeah, I, I'm, unfortunately I'm kind of unfamiliar. So I'm actually pretty unfamiliar with that, but I

00:21:59.080 get tweets all the time of people saying like, I guess my card on 2k is, is really good. And so they,

00:22:05.240 they pick me to be on their 2k teams and fantasy leagues and I do well for them. Okay.

00:22:09.780 Well, that's exciting. I, I'm, you know, I don't really know what that means. I'm sure that the

00:22:13.400 people out there who know about the fantasy draft and basketball could probably, they, they probably

00:22:19.080 understand that. So yeah, that's exciting. I think it's even more exciting though, the success of your

00:22:23.900 book and how many people are buying it, how many people are hearing your story. We like to say that

00:22:28.700 courage begets courage when you see someone standing up and, um, willing to take a risk and willing to

00:22:35.640 share the arrows that inevitably are going to come when you take a controversial standard,

00:22:40.520 what the world sees as controversial. Um, that kind of, it, it stirs in them the ability and the

00:22:47.040 bravery to say, you know what, if he can do it, I can do it too. Courage really can be contagious.

00:22:52.180 And that's what I really hope that people get from you and your story and your book as well.

00:22:57.580 Yeah. Likewise. And one of the things that I love to say about courage is that

00:23:00.900 courage is not the absence of fear. And so through all of that, I was terrified. Like I didn't sleep

00:23:06.720 the night before standing. I knew what was going to come about the vaccine and the Rolling Stone

00:23:10.600 article, all that stuff. But I chose to do it because I knew that God was with me. And because

00:23:14.520 I knew that the people who were with me had me at the end of the day. And so courage is not the

00:23:19.320 essence of fear. Courage is being afraid and choosing to do it anyway. And so, yeah.

00:23:23.700 Yes. There was this quote by C.S. Lewis that I recently read, and I think I'd read it before,

00:23:28.460 but it just resonated, especially with everything that's going on. It seems like there's such a

00:23:34.080 lack of courage today. And he said that courage is not a virtue in itself. It is the testing point

00:23:43.360 of each virtue. So it is when you get to the point of your integrity being tested, your honor being

00:23:51.400 tested, your honesty being tested, whatever it is, if you are willing to uphold that

00:23:58.280 virtue, love, joy, whatever it is, at the point when it's most difficult, at the point when there

00:24:05.360 is the most risk involved, that is what courage looks like. It is every virtue at its testing point.

00:24:12.320 And I think that you've represented that well, obviously, with the power of Christ working in

00:24:16.940 you and to the glory of God, you have emulated what it looks like to take a virtue to its testing

00:24:23.820 point. And so I'm thankful for that. And I am hopeful and optimistic that other people are

00:24:30.160 going to borrow the courage that you've shown us. The one thing that I'll add to that is that there

00:24:35.260 are moments in the book when I don't. And so what I love about the story is that it's not just one

00:24:40.380 story of, again, like it just being at the top. And Jonathan is the most virtuous and courageous guy

00:24:45.060 in the world. There's moments that you see me fail. There's moments that you see me not believe God at

00:24:50.200 his word and go the other way. And so it's human. I think the book is so real in that any person,

00:24:57.740 any sphere of life can identify with the struggles that I've had, the ups that I've had, and the downs

00:25:03.120 that I've had. And to see that God was there throughout the entire process. So even when you

00:25:07.120 don't in the moment have the courage to stand up or enact that virtue as you should, there's grace and

00:25:14.680 there's mercy and that God will see you through it. And he's absolutely done that for me.

00:25:18.240 Yeah. I think this is a book for anyone, but I'm thinking about a lot of moms who have

00:25:22.740 teenage sons and it's hard to navigate the world right now. I think as a Christian trying to raise

00:25:29.740 courageous and honorable sons who have integrity and do the right thing and run into good fights

00:25:36.920 for the glory of God. And so I think that your story with all of its ups and downs and winding turns

00:25:44.660 and the grace and the mercy that covers it, I think that can be especially encouraging for moms who

00:25:50.520 are trying to raise boys into godly men right now. So thank you so much for writing it. They can get

00:25:56.660 it wherever they buy their books, right? I would say the best place to get it is on Amazon, but you can

00:26:01.880 absolutely run into your Barnes and Nobles if they have some books a million, but I would say go on

00:26:06.800 Amazon. Is there an audio book? Yes. There is. Did you record it? That is narrated by me. Oh, great.

00:26:11.240 Yes. So we've, we've actually had like really great responses from the audio book. Like people are saying

00:26:15.380 they love it. You have a very good voice. Yeah. But you know, like me, I'm like, I don't want to do it.

00:26:20.220 It's, it's, it, it was actually really, really tough to get it done. I know. I've done it. I've done it.

00:26:25.300 It's a lot of talking. Yes. It's a lot of talking. My mind was like, my, like get like brain freeze and

00:26:30.480 trying to read all the lines and all that stuff. But I'm glad that we were able to do it and get it done.

00:26:34.540 Yeah. People love audio books. So check that out. Amazon audible. I'm sure it's on Christian books.com.

00:26:39.360 Some people who don't like to purchase from Amazon, they can go to Christian books.com. I'm sure

00:26:43.600 that it's available there. So thank you so much for coming in, for taking the time to talk to me. I

00:26:48.140 know people are going to love this conversation and love your book as well. Yeah. Thank you so much

00:26:51.260 for having me. Thank you.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - June 21, 2022

Ep 632 ｜ Why This NBA Player Refused to Kneel for BLM ｜ Guest： Jonathan Isaac

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