Ep 632 ｜ Why This NBA Player Refused to Kneel for BLM ｜ Guest： Jonathan Isaac
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Summary
Jonathan Isaac joins Allie and Allie to discuss his new book, Why I Stand . In this episode, Jonathan talks about how he came to Christ, why his book is doing so well, and why he believes God is the answer for the world.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. This episode, as all episodes, is brought to you by our friends
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at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for American meat delivered. That's
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goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, I am so excited for you to hear this conversation
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with our friend Jonathan Isaac. He is a player for the Orlando Magic. This is the second time we're
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having him on. Today, we are talking about his new book, Why I Stand. It is doing so well. There's a
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reason for that. He has an incredible story, an incredible testimony. If you heard him on the
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first time on Relatable last year, you've heard a little bit about how he came to Christ, but this
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book details that a lot further. We are talking about that some today. I know you're going to
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walk away from this conversation feeling so encouraged and uplifted and just touched by
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his vulnerability, his willingness to share his struggles, and also his insistence upon
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pointing to the power and the faithfulness of God. I'm just really looking forward to you
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hearing from him again. I will pat Relatable on the back just a little bit because I believe we were
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the first show to talk to him last year when he was taking a stand against the vaccine mandates.
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And of course, we also talked about the stand that he took in 2020 when he decided not to kneel in
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honor of the Black Lives Matter organization on the sideline of his NBA game. So just as a
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refresher, that's who Jonathan Isaac is. That is why we talked to him last year. And that is
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part of why we are talking to him today. What was he thinking as he was taking those stands that he knew
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would be controversial? So as I said, this is going to be awesome. If you're not familiar with him,
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you're going to love him. So without further ado, here is our friend Jonathan Isaac.
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Jonathan, thanks so much for joining us in person. This is the second time that you're on the show.
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And this time we are talking about the book that you told me about the first time you were on the
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show. So tell us a little bit more about the book now that it's published and out there. What is it
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about? Why did you write it? Well, first off, thank you so much for having me, Allie. This is a pleasure.
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Yeah. I mean, the book-wise thing, it's doing fantastic. So it became a national bestseller,
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I think this week, earlier this week. Number one in basketball biographies on Amazon. Number 20,
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as of right now, in Christian books and Bibles. Number 23 in politics and government. Number nine
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on the Wall Street Journal bestseller list. That's all a really big deal. I mean,
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there's a lot of competition in those categories. And we were even higher earlier in the week. So we got
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to like one in Christian books, one in politics, one in basketball biographies, and I think like
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up to 15 on Amazon altogether. So yes, absolutely. But yeah, it's just been great. Like hearing people
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talk about how well they're enjoying the book and how it's encouraging them and empowering them and
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all those different things. It's like, it's so surreal for me. But the book is so much more than
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just about me standing in the bubble or me refusing a vaccine. It really is a story of my journey,
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how the heck I got there in the first place, the people that have been along the journey with me,
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how I was able to develop courage and belief through a relationship with Christ that has
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helped me to battle anxiety, fear, insecurity. And I really think it is a roadmap for people today
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to stand up for what they believe in and to see that the reason I said that Jesus Christ was the
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answer for the world is because he's been that answer for me. And so that's why the book is here.
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Yeah. I don't want to rehash everything that we talked about in the first interview. People can go
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back and listen to that. But I do want to back up a little bit for those who don't know your story.
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Tell us how you came to Christ. Were you raised in a Christian home? Have you always been a Christian?
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So I was raised in a Christian home and we were in church. It felt like every single day.
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My parents split up when I was about 10 years old and I moved from Bronx, New York,
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which is I was predominantly black community to Naples, Florida, which is predominantly white.
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Yeah. And I really, really struggled as a kid. And so trying to fit in, trying to get people to like
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me, I became really self-conscious and, you know, developed a level of anxiety. I picked up a nickname
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Ethiopia early on and me, you know, being in Naples, Florida, and it just sucked. It was hard for me to
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make friends. And so I developed that insecurity and fear about getting people to like me.
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Was it mostly the racial component that made you stand out? Was it because you were from the Bronx and
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that's just like a totally different culture in place? What was it that made you feel excluded or
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I think it was, it was, it was all of it. So it was definitely just a cultural change of like,
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okay, I need to make the first step in trying to get these people like me. And then there obviously
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was the racial undertone of being called Ethiopia that kind of kind of moved me, you know, to the
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side. And then just, just failing at it. So there's a, there's a story earlier in the book where
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I'm so used to horse playing because I come from the Bronx. That's what we do with it. That's how you make
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friends, you horseplay. And then you guys are buddies. But when I did it in Naples, Florida,
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I got in trouble. And so I'm in the principal's office. My mom gets called and the principal is
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actually like scared for the kid's wellbeing. And that's when I was like, Oh man, I'm not,
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I'm not what I thought I was, you know? And it just didn't work out. And so that's hard. That's
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hard for like your self perception too. You go from like roughhousing, cause that's a normal thing that
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you do to basically being cast as a bad kid or a danger to the community. That's gotta be really
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hard for a kid and understanding who they are and how they fit in.
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Exactly. Absolutely. And so, uh, so then I find basketball. So I find basketball and I start to
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fall in love with basketball, but at the same time, I'm falling in love with everything that
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basketball is getting me. So the friends that now want to be around me because I've become a,
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you know, a talented basketball player, the girls are starting to talk to me and like me because of
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the game. And so I started to shape my identity around basketball, that that is the,
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that's the best thing about me. It's the only thing that, that about me, that there's value in.
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And so I pushed forward 100% and I became the number one player in the state of Florida,
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but still dealing with those same anxieties and fears behind the scenes to where I would play well
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and I'm on top of the world. Everybody loves me. And then I would be so nervous about playing well
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again, because I didn't want to lose that love that I had gained. And so, uh, so it was just,
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it was just a struggle all through middle school, all through high school. I make it to Florida State,
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um, you know, as the, you know, most highly touted recruit in some 40 years.
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And, uh, uh, yeah, I get there and it's the same, it's the same struggle, but now it's like on a
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bigger stage. And now I have these big anxiety episodes to where like I pass out in class,
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I pass out during breakfast, like something like that.
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Cause you were so, you were kind of in this very precarious position that you felt like if you
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made the wrong move or you did something wrong, not only would you fail professionally, athletically,
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but you felt like your whole identity and purpose would crumble. That's a huge burden to carry.
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Yes, absolutely. And it was, it was interesting because it was all like undercurrent to where on
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the, on the surface, I'm, I'm Jonathan Isaac. I'm, I'm this great basketball player and everybody
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loves me for that. But underneath is that these things are like kind of trembling, you know,
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underneath the surface. And then I had those big moments where it kind of just exploded.
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And all of that is detailed in the book as well. And then I get to, I leave Florida State and then
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I make it to the NBA. I'm the sixth pick in the NBA draft. And now it's even, it's like you're going
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from stage to stage. Now it's even, it's an even bigger stage. And, uh, I get injured early on so
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that that sucks. I'm going through these things behind the scenes. And then the book takes you
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through the story of ultimately me really coming to Christ because growing up in church, it was just,
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uh, it was just tradition. It wasn't something that was tangible. I didn't know that a relationship
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with Jesus could be something that was tangible. Um, and then I meet a gentleman on the elevator
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who says, I can tell you how to be great. And there's a lot of backstory to this, but if I take
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you through the whole thing, it's going to take up the whole podcast. But, um, and it was just,
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it was just kind of like a random person who shared the gospel with you. Yes. He said, I can tell you
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how to be great. And I said, how? He said, you have to know Jesus. And I'm like, man, I know Jesus, whatever.
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Um, and then the story just goes on this whirlwind of like, God pretty much orchestrating
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our steps and me meeting him over and over again. And just the crazy coincidences to where I'm like,
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you know what? God is real. And the biggest thing that caught my eye was that just not,
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just not that God was real. It was that he loved me because in order for him to come after me,
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I wasn't checking for him. I was doing my own thing, but in order for him to, to want to orchestrate
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my footsteps, he had to care. And that was the first time that I could breathe. Cause I was so used to
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being high strung and anxious about getting people to like me, but he was this God that loved me for
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me and I didn't have to perform for it. I didn't have to work for it. And that was the start of
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me getting to where I am today. Yeah. Tell us how that has changed your, your career and because
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you're still successful, but would you say that that anxiety to keep up a certain level of success
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in order to please other people and be accepted and approved of by other people? How has, how has
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that feeling and that anxiety changed since you've had this realization that God loves you for you?
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Yeah. And I w I would also say that it's a process. So coming to that understanding is like, Oh yeah,
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God loves me for me. But then what happens when you, when you fail again and you're like, does God love
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me for me? Um, but the, a huge part of it was the people that were in my life. So all detail through the
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book, you have my wife, Takeda, um, you have Dr. Hepburn, which becomes, you know, Bishop Dr.
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Hepburn, my pastor, the same guy that met me in the elevator and told me that Jesus was going to help
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me be great. Um, that I had to know Jesus in order to be great. Those people were the ones that were
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able to walk me through the process of being loved unconditionally and not for what you could do,
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not for what you could give them, but just for who you were, um, and helping you get to, you know,
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grow into the person that God created you to be. And so I had, I had people to walk me through it and then,
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you know, being able to not rely on the thoughts of others and, and, and the feelings of others,
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but almost, you know, just focusing on that audience of one of being Christ and wanting
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to please him has ultimately led me to being willing to stand alone in a moment where I had
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a lot riding against me. Yeah. And you know, that is the thing that is different. That's what sets
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Christianity apart is that there are many religions that can tell you how to get to God,
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how to climb up the mountain, but Christianity stands apart in that it tells us that we are actually
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unable to get up the mountain. We're actually unable to make our way to God or to perform a
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certain way so that God will accept us. But God came down the mountain. He did something for us
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because we were unable to make ourselves acceptable in and of ourselves. And that really is so liberating
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and so different, um, than the other religions of performance out there.
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And that really is the crux of the book. And so when people are reading my story and they're reading
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about why did this guy stand in the bubble and why is his message about the love of Jesus Christ is
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really going to be the thing that changes the world. It's because I've experienced that love
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that you're talking about, that God came down to us and met us where we were at and ultimately helped
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us work to where we are today. And so that's, that's what I want people to walk away from the
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book that if we could choose to love people the way that God loves us, which is in spite of our sin,
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in spite of our, uh, failures and shortcomings that meets us where we're at and loves us through it,
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then we can really see change in the world. It's not going to be a movement. It's not going to be
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an organization because the things that we're dealing with are heart issues. And, you know,
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even standing in the bubble, I couldn't think of a greater message to change the hearts of men
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other than the gospel for that time. And that's why I decided to, to stand.
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And really how people first heard about you and heard you share the gospel was because you did stand
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instead of kneeling, um, a couple of years ago when people were protesting in the name of
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Black Lives Matter. Um, can you tell us how the gospel that you just described influences how you
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view Black Lives Matter and why you chose in that instance, not to kneel? You did explain how you
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experienced racial prejudice growing up. So it's not like you don't believe that that's something
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that exists. So why did you, why did you decide to, um, take a stand in that moment?
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That's a great question. And even to your point about the undertones of being,
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having experienced that in the past. And so it's like, you know, why is this Black guy standing up
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and not kneeling with everybody else that's kneeling and he's Black, obviously, um, and has
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experienced some of those things in the past. But, um, back to what I was saying about them being heart
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issues. When you take racism, when you take all the different things that plague the hearts of men,
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their heart issues and their spiritual issues. And our world in times of tragedy, like George Floyd
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needs healing. And when you think about healing, healing is not for, for me, understanding that
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healing is not going to come through a movement unless the movement is centered around Christ.
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Because again, those are heart issues that only the gospel can heal. And so, um, when our world needs
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healings, I'm thinking about love. Love is the thing that heals. And there's no greater love than the
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love of God because the world loves you until you make a mistake, until you do something wrong. But we were
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talking about that God unconditional love that meets you where you're at, that loves first,
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um, and loves in spite of, to me, if we were able to, to, you know, internalize that love and show it
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in a moment, like George Floyd's tragedy, then both sides could come together and there could be real
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reconciliation and change. And even thinking about the, the verse second Chronicles seven and 14,
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it says, if my people who are called by my name would humble themselves, seek my face,
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pray and turn from their wicked ways. I will come forgive their sins and heal their land.
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And so seeing that while in times like this and times like today, looking at America needs healing.
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And if we could humble ourselves, turn from our wicked ways and point people to Christ,
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um, in these moments of tragedy, then we could have real change.
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And another moment for you where you took an unpopular stand that got you some blowback was about
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the vaccine. And we talked about that in our first interview, but some people might not even know
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that that was a stand that you took. Tell us since we talked, I think it was maybe in October,
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how it has been, um, in the NBA, since you are someone who didn't take the vaccine.
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It's, it was a whirlwind, like as everyone, you know, the world just kind of stopped.
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It paused and everyone was, there was so much fear that was being pushed and spewed to all areas.
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So, you know, the NBA shuts everything down and they're, you know, we're running around like
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chickens with our head cuts off. Like what's the right thing to do? What's the right protocol to
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put in place? What's the right thing to mitigate what's going on? Um, and, and it just, it felt,
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it felt forced, you know, especially coming, you know, not, not necessarily at that time,
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but as we learned more about COVID and got into the vaccine conversation, it, everything felt so
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forced, everything felt so pushed upon and you couldn't even ask questions. And so I, as I was on social
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media and Twitter and watching people ask about natural immunity and be taken off or something
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like that, what is going on? And so that's when I decided, you know what, I'm just going to take
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a step back. I'm going to watch and see what happens. Um, and then that, you know, we talked
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about the Rolling Stone article the first time we spoke and that was the kind of thing that set me
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back and was like, wow, this obviously is more than about a vaccine. This is political. This is,
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you know, about an agenda and a side. And I was like, you know what, you know, I'm going to choose
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to side with the people who are having their religious and medical exemptions denied and people who are
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losing their jobs and to stand up and be a voice for them. You know, it's not saying that the vaccine
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is terrible and it's awful and it doesn't have some, you know, it can work or benefit, but, um,
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on principle, I, I didn't, I didn't enjoy the way that it was being pushed. And again, for myself,
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I'm young, I'm healthy. I already had COVID in the past. I had already spoken to several doctors
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about it. And I was like, you know, I don't see the wisdom in putting this into my body. Um,
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risking having some type of possible, you know, adverse reaction and still being possible to get the,
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the, the, the virus and transmitted anyway. But you were discriminated against in some ways
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because of that choice, right? For sure. There was definitely blowback. And the same thing with the,
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with standing in the bubble and I knew it going into it. And so in the book, I'm, I'm on the phone
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with my pastor the night before standing and I'm like, yo, this thing is going to be crazy. I don't
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think you understand. Like I hadn't signed my contract yet. There were so many things that were
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up in the air that was like, I know the backlash. I know I'm going to be a coon. I know I'm going to be
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uncle Tom. It's going to happen. And then getting called those names for sure, for sure. But getting
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to, and then getting to the vaccine, it's like the same thing. You're, you're an evil person,
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even if you have any hesitation or questions about taking this vaccine. And so, yeah.
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Yeah. So, but for like the NBA, you were kind of, you were treated differently, right?
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They, they had different, um, you know, rules and regulations for people that were unvaccinated.
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You had to test every day. And so I had to get to the gym, wait in my car, um, until
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my test came back negative. And then I could enter the building. Um, they had, they had
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put out like this, this, I guess, chart of saying, if you're unvaccinated, you couldn't
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eat with your teammates, be in the locker room. But you know, those, those, they weren't
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necessarily upheld during the season. Scott was still able to, but they definitely, I
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definitely felt the pressure of them trying to say, look, if you don't do this, um, or we're
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going to put all these rules in place to encourage you to just get vaccinated. And I think
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there were several guys who maybe had not wanted to get vaccinated, but was just like,
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you know what? I don't want to go through all this.
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Yeah. And do you, do they still have those rules now?
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No, no. So they, they, they stopped the mask mandate like on the bench or something like
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that. So players had to come out of the game, you know, was on the bench with the mask on,
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take the mask off, go into the game, get out of the game, put the mask back on to sit
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on the bench. And so there were, there was stuff like that where I could understand the,
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the craziness of the moment and them just trying to figure out what we need to do to help
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this be better. But at the same time, on the other side, just the illogical, um, you know,
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measures that, you know, not only them, but just, you know, people all over the country
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You mentioned, um, your wife and how she has been instrumental in your faith and she's here.
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And I love that we were just talking before the camera started rolling. What a difference it makes
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to have your person with you and really support you. You're a newlyweds. Y'all have been married
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just for a few months. Um, tell us what that has been like her being kind of by your side,
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not just in your faith journey, but also in the explosion of this book, all of the things that
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you've experienced over the past couple of years. Um, what's that been like? What has it meant to you
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Well, seven months and she's here right now, um, along with doc. Um, but yeah, it's just,
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it's just been, it's just been great. You know, she's just been a, an amazing support system and
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encouragement. And through the book, I detail how we, how we got into a relationship in the first
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place and how she was integral in me becoming who I am today and, and speaking that life and
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encouragement and loving me where I was at and helping me to, you know, to become or to see myself
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the way that they see me and the way that God sees me. And so she's just been, she's just been
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great. She's been answering emails and setting up appointments and just making sure that everything
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goes smoothly. So I wouldn't be able to do any of this without her.
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Yeah. That makes a huge difference. What do you hope that people get out of the book? If there's
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one thing that you want someone to walk away with, what do you hope that is?
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I would say that, um, as the world gets darker, um, the necessity for, to be able to stand up for what
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you believe in, to stand on the word of God is only going to become more necessary, but also at the same
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time, it's only going to become harder and we're going to have to be empowered and courageous enough
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to do it. And I'm hoping that my story gives people that encouragement in order to do so,
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to see that I wasn't some hotshot that had courage all day long and was able to just stand up and
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I'm not going to kneel for this because I'm, because I believe in God so heavily. I'm a kid who
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has grown into a man through a relationship with Christ and the people who have helped me to get
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here, um, and found the courage in the moment to do so. And so that I'd say that's the biggest thing
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that I would, I would want people to just get the journey, get the story. Um, and that what God has
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done for me, God absolutely wants to do through you. And you know, the, the, the, the harvest is
00:20:09.180
plentiful, but the labor is a few. And if we're willing to stand up, we can, you know, take back,
00:20:13.600
you know, a lot of the things that the enemy is running rampant, allowing to happen. And we can be,
00:20:18.220
we can be vigilant about, about fighting it and combating it.
00:20:21.080
And that comes with risk. There's not a guarantee that you won't be canceled, that you won't be
00:20:25.740
persecuted, that people won't call you names. Thankfully you have had so much success come
00:20:32.360
from it. And so much, I'm sure support and encouragement from people who are kind of,
00:20:36.540
um, who share your faith and share your stances on these things. But I think people have to also
00:20:43.020
recognize that just because God is on your side and taking a stand does not mean there won't be
00:20:48.420
loss, does not mean there won't be sacrifice. Right. And that takes a whole other level of courage.
00:20:53.880
Yeah. But to your point, what I'll say is that the story about me, you know, having the success
00:20:59.600
is, is, is great too. But one of the things that my pastor said to me the night before I stood was
00:21:04.120
you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you. So you may have, you may, you may have monetary
00:21:10.000
loss because you could cancel. You may have loss in some other area, but you'll, you'll gain in
00:21:15.080
eternity, right? Like you'll, you'll gain in other ways because God is going to fight for you because
00:21:19.440
you're standing for him. So take, take Daniel, take, you know, me, Shaq, Shaq, and it'd be like,
00:21:23.840
you cannot stand for God and God is not going to be there to stand for you in whatever area he
00:21:28.040
chooses to do so, but it will be great. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And my researcher said, I don't
00:21:35.020
really know what this means. Maybe you can interpret this for me. She said you're doing well
00:21:39.640
on like on fantasy teams. What is that? What is fantasy basketball? People, uh, so I guess just,
00:21:47.700
uh, like 2k, uh, fantasy leagues and stuff like that. You can pick which fantasy draft. Okay. So
00:21:53.840
yeah, I, I'm, unfortunately I'm kind of unfamiliar. So I'm actually pretty unfamiliar with that, but I
00:21:59.080
get tweets all the time of people saying like, I guess my card on 2k is, is really good. And so they,
00:22:05.240
they pick me to be on their 2k teams and fantasy leagues and I do well for them. Okay.
00:22:09.780
Well, that's exciting. I, I'm, you know, I don't really know what that means. I'm sure that the
00:22:13.400
people out there who know about the fantasy draft and basketball could probably, they, they probably
00:22:19.080
understand that. So yeah, that's exciting. I think it's even more exciting though, the success of your
00:22:23.900
book and how many people are buying it, how many people are hearing your story. We like to say that
00:22:28.700
courage begets courage when you see someone standing up and, um, willing to take a risk and willing to
00:22:35.640
share the arrows that inevitably are going to come when you take a controversial standard,
00:22:40.520
what the world sees as controversial. Um, that kind of, it, it stirs in them the ability and the
00:22:47.040
bravery to say, you know what, if he can do it, I can do it too. Courage really can be contagious.
00:22:52.180
And that's what I really hope that people get from you and your story and your book as well.
00:22:57.580
Yeah. Likewise. And one of the things that I love to say about courage is that
00:23:00.900
courage is not the absence of fear. And so through all of that, I was terrified. Like I didn't sleep
00:23:06.720
the night before standing. I knew what was going to come about the vaccine and the Rolling Stone
00:23:10.600
article, all that stuff. But I chose to do it because I knew that God was with me. And because
00:23:14.520
I knew that the people who were with me had me at the end of the day. And so courage is not the
00:23:19.320
essence of fear. Courage is being afraid and choosing to do it anyway. And so, yeah.
00:23:23.700
Yes. There was this quote by C.S. Lewis that I recently read, and I think I'd read it before,
00:23:28.460
but it just resonated, especially with everything that's going on. It seems like there's such a
00:23:34.080
lack of courage today. And he said that courage is not a virtue in itself. It is the testing point
00:23:43.360
of each virtue. So it is when you get to the point of your integrity being tested, your honor being
00:23:51.400
tested, your honesty being tested, whatever it is, if you are willing to uphold that
00:23:58.280
virtue, love, joy, whatever it is, at the point when it's most difficult, at the point when there
00:24:05.360
is the most risk involved, that is what courage looks like. It is every virtue at its testing point.
00:24:12.320
And I think that you've represented that well, obviously, with the power of Christ working in
00:24:16.940
you and to the glory of God, you have emulated what it looks like to take a virtue to its testing
00:24:23.820
point. And so I'm thankful for that. And I am hopeful and optimistic that other people are
00:24:30.160
going to borrow the courage that you've shown us. The one thing that I'll add to that is that there
00:24:35.260
are moments in the book when I don't. And so what I love about the story is that it's not just one
00:24:40.380
story of, again, like it just being at the top. And Jonathan is the most virtuous and courageous guy
00:24:45.060
in the world. There's moments that you see me fail. There's moments that you see me not believe God at
00:24:50.200
his word and go the other way. And so it's human. I think the book is so real in that any person,
00:24:57.740
any sphere of life can identify with the struggles that I've had, the ups that I've had, and the downs
00:25:03.120
that I've had. And to see that God was there throughout the entire process. So even when you
00:25:07.120
don't in the moment have the courage to stand up or enact that virtue as you should, there's grace and
00:25:14.680
there's mercy and that God will see you through it. And he's absolutely done that for me.
00:25:18.240
Yeah. I think this is a book for anyone, but I'm thinking about a lot of moms who have
00:25:22.740
teenage sons and it's hard to navigate the world right now. I think as a Christian trying to raise
00:25:29.740
courageous and honorable sons who have integrity and do the right thing and run into good fights
00:25:36.920
for the glory of God. And so I think that your story with all of its ups and downs and winding turns
00:25:44.660
and the grace and the mercy that covers it, I think that can be especially encouraging for moms who
00:25:50.520
are trying to raise boys into godly men right now. So thank you so much for writing it. They can get
00:25:56.660
it wherever they buy their books, right? I would say the best place to get it is on Amazon, but you can
00:26:01.880
absolutely run into your Barnes and Nobles if they have some books a million, but I would say go on
00:26:06.800
Amazon. Is there an audio book? Yes. There is. Did you record it? That is narrated by me. Oh, great.
00:26:11.240
Yes. So we've, we've actually had like really great responses from the audio book. Like people are saying
00:26:15.380
they love it. You have a very good voice. Yeah. But you know, like me, I'm like, I don't want to do it.
00:26:20.220
It's, it's, it, it was actually really, really tough to get it done. I know. I've done it. I've done it.
00:26:25.300
It's a lot of talking. Yes. It's a lot of talking. My mind was like, my, like get like brain freeze and
00:26:30.480
trying to read all the lines and all that stuff. But I'm glad that we were able to do it and get it done.
00:26:34.540
Yeah. People love audio books. So check that out. Amazon audible. I'm sure it's on Christian books.com.
00:26:39.360
Some people who don't like to purchase from Amazon, they can go to Christian books.com. I'm sure
00:26:43.600
that it's available there. So thank you so much for coming in, for taking the time to talk to me. I
00:26:48.140
know people are going to love this conversation and love your book as well. Yeah. Thank you so much