Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 641 ｜ RESPONSE： Emmanuel Acho’s 'Uncomfortable' Abortion Conversation

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. Happy Tuesday. This episode, as all episodes, is brought to

00:00:04.280 you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie for a discount.

00:00:09.680 That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, guys, we've got a little bit of a different

00:00:23.640 episode for you today. We are going to play a YouTube video, a recent conversation that was

00:00:31.280 hosted by Emmanuel Acho, and we are going to respond to it. This conversation was about Roe v.

00:00:38.440 Wade and abortion. If you don't know, Emmanuel Acho hosts a show that goes on YouTube and it goes

00:00:44.680 on Instagram called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. This was started in the summer

00:00:50.780 of 2020, and he has people come on and they talk about things that he would call systemic racism

00:00:55.420 and systemic discrimination and things like that. This time he had a so-called uncomfortable

00:00:59.760 conversation about abortion. He had four women on there, two women who have had abortions,

00:01:04.400 one woman who had an ectopic pregnancy that she calls an abortion, and then a woman named Chelsea

00:01:09.320 Smith, who is the wife of Judah Smith, who is the pastor of the megachurch. You've probably heard

00:01:17.180 about him. She also calls herself a pastor. She is supposed to bring the Christian perspective

00:01:21.400 on all of this. Now, to give a little bit more context about who Emmanuel Acho is, he is a former

00:01:28.200 NFL player, and for his work in Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, he has won, I think,

00:01:37.820 an Emmy Award for that. And so he's gotten not just a huge platform, but a lot of accolades for this.

00:01:45.240 He guest-hosted for Ellen DeGeneres. He also was like a temporary replacement for Chris Harrison

00:01:52.880 on The Bachelor after that whole thing blew up with Chris, and he said something that some

00:01:58.620 people thought was racially insensitive. I was looking at Acho's Wikipedia page, and

00:02:05.900 I didn't realize that we both grew up in Dallas around the same time. He went to a very elite

00:02:10.600 private school called St. Mark's. We did not know each other. He went to the University of Texas,

00:02:15.740 played football there, and then he went to the NFL. So he's had a large platform for a very long

00:02:21.180 time, but he's really kind of burst on the scene in the last couple of years with the

00:02:25.300 Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. Now, those so-called uncomfortable conversations

00:02:32.080 I take issue with, they are all coming from a progressive perspective. And now he says that he's not.

00:02:38.140 He would probably say that he's coming from a nonpartisan perspective. He is a professing

00:02:43.860 Christian, so he would also say that he's coming from a Christian perspective. But what I found in

00:02:48.440 all of these uncomfortable conversations, and the reason why I kind of use a tone of scare quotes

00:02:53.740 around uncomfortable, and why I say so-called uncomfortable conversation is because they're

00:03:00.360 all coming from the same perspective. They all make the same assumptions about where racial

00:03:05.600 disparities come from, and why it seems like Black Americans aren't as successful as white Americans.

00:03:14.080 The assumption is always that it is because of the legacy of slavery. It is because of the legacy of

00:03:19.920 racism and Jim Crow and oppression and discrimination. I would love for him to have an actual

00:03:25.520 uncomfortable conversation with, say, a Black conservative, maybe wrestle with some points

00:03:31.260 that are made by Thomas Sowell, who says that not all disparities are due to discrimination and

00:03:37.960 actually uses data to prove that. I would like for him to wrestle with some uncomfortable facts about

00:03:44.180 why the disparities exist as they do in the United States, rather than just kind of repeating the popular

00:03:49.640 left-wing narratives about this. A lot of Christians have been taken in by these narratives that

00:03:56.140 he and other activists have pushed. He's had conversations with Chip and Joanna. He's had

00:04:01.620 conversations with Jamie Ivey and her family and her husband. He's had conversations with

00:04:06.400 Matthew McConaughey. Again, all coming from the same perspective, so I'm not sure how uncomfortable

00:04:10.940 they really are. And then the same thing in this conversation about abortion. All of the people in this

00:04:16.820 consider themselves pro-choice. All of the people who were a part of this conversation agree. They agree on

00:04:24.840 abortion and that overturning Roe v. Wade is dangerous. So, of course, that's my biggest gripe

00:04:29.800 with this, is that it wasn't an uncomfortable conversation. There was no highlighting, as you'll

00:04:34.400 hear me say a few times, of what an abortion is or what life is being taken or even any uncomfortable

00:04:40.440 wrestling with the moral question that exists in the abortion conversation and debate. So, I mean,

00:04:48.080 this conversation really missed the mark in so, so many ways, especially when it comes to the theology

00:04:55.420 behind it, as you will hear me articulate. So, I hope you enjoy this kind of new format. I'm really

00:05:04.200 excited to get into it. Okay. So, how this is going to work is I'm going to play a little clip

00:05:20.980 from the video and then I'm going to respond to it. Now, we will link the full video in the

00:05:28.040 description because I don't want you to think that I'm decontextualizing these people or trying to make

00:05:32.480 it sound like they're saying something they're not by not playing the full video. I would play the

00:05:37.600 full video and respond to it. I thought about that. But then once I got into it and started kind of

00:05:42.100 outlining what I would be saying and how I would be responding, I realized that would be like a giant

00:05:47.760 two-hour long episode. So, this is going to be kind of longer as it is. It was just impossible to

00:05:53.620 respond to every single line of the episode. So, we're going to take chunks of it and I'm going to

00:05:59.260 try to keep it in context to let you know what's really going on. But if you want to see the full

00:06:02.940 context, you can go and you can watch the entire thing. I am trying to approach this from as honest

00:06:09.020 of a perspective as I possibly can and give people credit where it's due and give them the benefit of

00:06:15.680 the doubt. But I just wasn't able to give you the entire video and then respond to that. So, for this

00:06:21.660 first part, we are going to hear from MJ Acosta Ruiz, talk to us about her abortion that she had

00:06:29.340 in 2004. Take me back to the moment in which you had to make that very difficult decision

00:06:35.840 of having an abortion. And how are you feeling now in light of the Supreme Court's decision?

00:06:41.160 Yeah, I was about barely 20 years old. I think I had just turned 20 years old and I had just dropped

00:06:46.920 out of college. So, very much a point in my life where I was lost. My parents are immigrants. They

00:06:54.100 immigrated to this country well into their 30s, leaving behind very good careers in their homeland

00:06:58.740 for opportunities for me. So, there was so much going on at that point in time where I felt like I was

00:07:04.300 already letting them down in so many different ways. And then I found out that I was pregnant.

00:07:10.000 And I just remember thinking, my parents did not do all of this to bring me here for me to now bring

00:07:18.440 a child and for them to be in poverty. So, this is a very common reason that women have abortions.

00:07:27.360 She's 20 years old. Parents very often have children at 20 years old. She felt like she wasn't ready,

00:07:32.840 but it came down to finances for her. And this is not a reason, however, to kill a child. This is not

00:07:43.140 a reason to take someone's life. I mean, if you apply any standard that people apply as a justification

00:07:50.820 for abortion to human beings outside of the womb, like poverty, you see very quickly how that leads us

00:07:59.700 down a path of barbarism. Abortion is already barbaric, of course. But consider, if you had a child

00:08:05.940 and you said, well, I can't afford this child, or this child may grow up to be poor, or this child may grow

00:08:12.340 up to have a hard life, or I'm going to disappoint my parents, is that a logical justification for killing

00:08:18.180 a child outside of the womb? If not, then why is it a logical or sympathetic justification for killing

00:08:25.900 a child inside the womb? The reasons are so arbitrary because of location, because of size,

00:08:31.140 because of development, because it's legal. None of those are very good or solid or moral or logical

00:08:37.020 reasons to end a human life. And no matter what you think about abortion, scientifically, life starts

00:08:43.360 at conception. Maybe you don't think that life has rights. Maybe you don't think that life has value.

00:08:47.740 Okay, that's your philosophical pseudo-religious position. The scientific position, however,

00:08:53.880 is that life, human life, begins a conception when there is separate DNA. And so whether it's for

00:09:00.240 finances, whether it's for convenience, whether it's for comfort, whether it's because you don't

00:09:03.880 want to disappoint your parents, these are not legitimate morally or logically reasons to end the

00:09:13.400 life of a human being. All right, now we are going to hear the reasons for Sonia Richards-Ross,

00:09:20.160 the Olympic gold medalist, for her abortion in 2008. Some young girls might think of like their

00:09:26.760 wedding day and, you know, have all these different kinds of dreams. But from the age of nine, the one

00:09:32.760 soul dream that always felt very real to me was becoming an Olympic champion. For me, in that moment,

00:09:39.000 when I found out I was pregnant right before I left for Beijing, I felt like I was in an impossible

00:09:43.800 situation because I knew I was with my forever. I was with my soon-to-be husband. I knew I wanted to

00:09:51.820 have a family with him. But I also wanted to be an Olympic champion more than anything. The day before

00:09:58.220 I left for Beijing, I had an abortion. And as a woman who also identifies as a Christian woman,

00:10:06.100 who tries to be Christ-like, I never, ever thought that I would be in that situation. It still is

00:10:12.960 really hard for me to talk about it. But I am grateful, however, that I had the choice.

00:10:19.860 Now, I can hear in her voice that this seems hard for her. I don't know her. I haven't

00:10:25.400 talked to her personally. However, it does seem, and we will see throughout this conversation,

00:10:32.960 that she is still kind of wrestling with this. But also, she makes clear that this is not something

00:10:38.300 that she regrets, that she wanted to pursue her dreams. She wanted to pursue her career. This is

00:10:43.720 yet another common reason why women have abortions. It's not that she was abandoned. It's not that she

00:10:48.820 was alone. She had the person that she ended up marrying. She knew that she wanted to start a family,

00:10:54.660 but because she had these career goals. She thought that it was justified to end the life

00:11:01.220 of her child. And she is still grateful, she says, that she had the choice to do that.

00:11:07.300 One thing that you are going to notice, probably in this conversation, is that there is never any

00:11:12.600 discussion of the moral question of abortion, which is, when is it and why is it okay to end the life

00:11:21.240 of an innocent human being? That is never wrestled with. Again, this is not an uncomfortable conversation

00:11:27.320 because the other side of this, that you're ending the life of a human being, is never even discussed.

00:11:32.920 We are only told that we must have sympathy for these women who, for their career, or because they

00:11:39.440 didn't want to disappoint their parents, or because they felt like they didn't have enough money,

00:11:42.720 ended the life of the child that was in their womb. So now we are going to hear a little bit more

00:11:49.140 from her. And Emmanuel's response to this is really what gets me.

00:11:56.220 I don't know what my life would have been like had I given up this dream that I had my whole life.

00:12:01.920 I don't. I don't know if I would have been all of who I am today. Would I still have shown up in

00:12:07.640 the world the way I do now? So then would you say or submit in the figurative sense,

00:12:12.560 your abortion also saved your life? Yeah. So, so you literally end the life of your child. You

00:12:22.100 literally end the physical life of your child to save your figurative life. Is that, is that what it

00:12:29.860 is here? That someone's figurative life is more valuable and more important than someone's literal

00:12:34.980 and physical life, the life of a defenseless, innocent child. And by the way, it didn't even

00:12:40.420 figuratively save her life. She was able to pursue her career more, but at the cost of her child's

00:12:46.180 physical, literal life. She also says in there, and we weren't able to play it, that she didn't end up

00:12:51.660 winning the race that she wanted to win. And she felt like she was being punished or like that was

00:12:56.540 some kind of consequence, which I don't think is like a theologically solid position necessarily,

00:13:04.100 but I mean, she literally sacrificed the life of her baby to run in a race that she didn't even end up

00:13:13.420 winning. So she didn't even get the fulfillment that she was running toward, which really just

00:13:17.840 breaks my heart. I'm not coming from a place of self-righteousness here. I am not trying to like

00:13:23.460 pile on. We'll talk about the difference in like guilt and shame and repentance and the importance of

00:13:28.920 all of that. But I'm not trying to come from a position of, of meanness here or self-righteousness.

00:13:35.520 I am coming from a position of sadness and sorrow that still you can see she is trying to justify

00:13:42.880 the choice that she made by saying that while she wouldn't have been able to show up in the world,

00:13:51.420 the way that she has, uh, now post abortion, you don't know that that shows such a mistrust in God

00:14:00.000 and his sovereignty. He is never going to command us to murder in order to be our full selves. I mean,

00:14:06.100 that is just a fancy way of kind of sugarcoating selfishness in narcissism. And that is unfortunately

00:14:14.660 what we are seeing being demonstrated here. And then we've got Dr. Yeni Abraham, the pelvic floor

00:14:20.780 therapist, who says that last year she had an ectopic pregnancy and that the abortion that she says

00:14:28.820 that she had saved her life. So here she is describing that. I remember going for like three scans that

00:14:35.340 week just to confirm and we could not find baby. And then eventually on one of the scans, we did see baby,

00:14:41.040 but the baby was trapped in my tube. And, um, and so, so it's the first thing she tells me, my doctor tells me

00:14:48.460 is, you know, I think that we are going to either have to have surgery or we're going to have to figure out a way

00:14:54.500 to make this a medically sound abortion.

00:14:58.980 This is not an abortion. It's not an abortion. And it really irks me to no end that they are trying to say that it is

00:15:07.160 in no state is treatment for ectopic pregnancy and abortion. And it is dishonest to include this.

00:15:16.040 It's dishonest to include this. And like the music behind that they're playing in order to persuade us

00:15:22.460 that this is something that we should, I mean, I am sad about the ectopic pregnancy. That's a horrible

00:15:27.400 thing to suffer. And I'm very sad that she had to go through something like that, but it's obviously

00:15:32.920 supposed to convey that we are, um, meant to be sad that she had to endure an abortion when again,

00:15:39.020 that is just misinformation. So here she is describing a little bit more about why the

00:15:43.940 situation was so precarious.

00:15:46.200 I live in Texas and unfortunately this was right around the time that the six week ban had started.

00:15:53.140 And I remember having that difficult conversation with my doctor that I, yeah, I have to have a medical

00:15:58.900 abortion, but I don't think I can give you one. And I thought, well, this is life saving. Like this is

00:16:04.680 my life, you know? And she's like, I know, but I don't think I can give you one. And so why couldn't

00:16:10.020 your doctor give you one? Because she was afraid that either someone in her office was going to make

00:16:15.480 a call and say, you know, there was a conduct that she conducted a medical abortion, that there was

00:16:21.360 going to be a question of her medical reasoning. So we were going back and forth for two weeks,

00:16:26.620 just trying to figure out how we could get this done. So suddenly she tells me, you know what,

00:16:31.960 just come in after hours, come in after hours. It's her one trusted staff member. They essentially

00:16:39.900 give me the medical abortion. I go home for the whole weekend and I lay in bed for three days

00:16:44.540 as the pregnancy passes. So you had to have an abortion in private. I did. I did.

00:16:50.500 So this is a horrible doctor, if this story is true. An absolutely atrocious doctor. I don't know

00:16:58.100 if this counts as medical malpractice, but this certainly seems like mistreatment because here's

00:17:03.960 what the Texas law says. Here's what the text of the law says. Exception for medical emergency.

00:17:10.840 So the law does not apply, the law says, if a physician believes a medical emergency exists that

00:17:18.020 prevents compliance with this subchapter, with this text of the law. A physician who performs or

00:17:23.400 induces an abortion under circumstances described by subsection A shall make written notations in the

00:17:29.380 pregnant woman's medical record of the physician's belief that a medical emergency necessitated the

00:17:34.080 abortion and the medical condition of the pregnant woman that prevented compliance with the subchapter.

00:17:39.620 So basically saying, look, if this is a medical emergency and it is necessary to save a woman's

00:17:44.740 life, it doesn't even put a gestational limit on this. It just says, hey, if the doctor thinks that

00:17:49.060 the abortion is necessary to save a woman's life, then the doctor can do it. She just has to make a note

00:17:54.140 and say, this is why we had to do this. And this woman, Dr. Abraham, is saying, well, her doctor was just

00:18:00.220 so scared that she couldn't actually treat her properly and in a timely fashion, which is actually

00:18:06.920 terrifying. But it's not the law's fault. Now, I know people are saying, well, it is the law's fault because

00:18:12.300 it is putting this kind of like undue burden on doctors who are scared about losing their license

00:18:17.220 or losing their job or being sued or whatever it is. But look, doctors in all states have had to

00:18:24.180 comply with some kind of restriction on abortion. Like doctors have always had to distinguish between

00:18:31.440 an induced abortion and a spontaneous abortion and induced abortion and treatment for ectopic

00:18:37.460 pregnancy. So you're telling me all of a sudden with new restrictions that doctors are so confused

00:18:42.860 that they're unable to treat their patients. It's actually this kind of propaganda that is going to

00:18:51.020 hurt women. Because if doctors are misled to believe that, oh, you better be really careful

00:18:56.460 treating these miscarriage patients, you better be really careful treating these ectopic pregnancy

00:19:02.880 patients. Even though the law does not restrict that, then that could inhibit the care that they

00:19:09.500 provide to someone. This is what will make women die. Not the laws themselves, which provide the

00:19:15.120 exception for these women to be treated, but the propaganda surrounding it. And that is really

00:19:21.700 troubling. And actually, we see the consequence of that in what Dr. Abraham says next. Here that is.

00:19:26.360 Do you feel as though more women's lives will be jeopardized by the Supreme Court rule?

00:19:32.600 100%. Emmanuel, it's already happening. So I see that a lot of women are delaying

00:19:37.660 these life-saving surgeries just out of fear.

00:19:41.600 Yeah, that is because of what they're seeing on social media. That's because of what they're

00:19:46.340 seeing on social media. That is because of the misinformation and the propaganda that is even

00:19:51.000 being pushed by the president of the United States. And even in this video, that is what is

00:19:56.320 scaring women. It's not the law's fault, which provides the exception. And as I said before,

00:20:01.620 there have always been laws on the books that have been restricting abortion in some way that

00:20:07.080 doctors have had to comply with, that hospitals have had to comply with, that nurses have known

00:20:11.620 about. Now, all of a sudden, you're telling me the doctors have no idea how to do it, that they're

00:20:16.980 willing to let their patients die or almost die? I don't know. The timing of all of these stories

00:20:23.200 coming out is very suspect. You didn't even hear all of these stories when the law first hit the

00:20:29.300 books in Texas, which was last fall. So it is actually the propaganda, the misinformation,

00:20:35.680 the fear-mongering that we're seeing on social media that is going to cost women's lives because

00:20:39.660 they are going to think that they can't be treated at a hospital. Doctors and nurses,

00:20:44.300 unfortunately, you would think that they would know better. You would think that the hospitals and

00:20:48.840 their lawyers would know better. But because they're believing this misinformation, reminds me

00:20:53.120 a lot of what happened during COVID, they are actually mistreating their patients. And that in

00:20:58.080 itself is terrifying. But it is not the fault of a law that is trying to protect the dignity and the

00:21:04.960 right to life of a pre-born child. All right, let's listen to this next part.

00:21:10.700 Do you feel like this recent decision is an attack on women?

00:21:14.120 A hundred percent. I do. And not just women, but women who are minorities, women who are poor,

00:21:22.280 communities who are poor, that don't have the privilege of finding an abortion clinic.

00:21:30.860 Okay, so Acosta Ruiz says that this is an attack on women, that it's particularly an attack on poor

00:21:50.000 women, that's an attack on minority women. Again, my question is, what about the baby? Like,

00:21:55.020 what about the attack on the baby? So we're not even going to talk about what an abortion is?

00:21:59.220 Like, we're not even going to talk about what an abortion procedure is. You guys have heard me

00:22:03.560 describe explicitly what an abortion procedure is many times in the first, second, and third

00:22:09.440 trimester. It is a brutal and violent and obviously murderous procedure. And whenever I describe what

00:22:15.960 an abortion is, especially after the 10-week mark, that you have to starve the baby, you have to

00:22:21.560 dismember the baby, you have to crush the baby's skull. Later on in the second trimester,

00:22:26.460 there is a needle filled with the same chemical combination that is used in the lethal injection

00:22:32.500 of murders that is inserted into the woman's abdomen, straight into the wiggling baby's heart

00:22:37.500 to cause a heart attack so that the baby dies and then again is dismembered and crushed and pulled out

00:22:44.420 of the womb. The third trimester abortion, as you can imagine, is even more brutal than that. And that

00:22:49.500 is happening about 10,000 times a year in the United States, hopefully less now that Roe v. Wade has

00:22:56.140 been overturned. There's no talk about that. It's just, well, now women aren't going to be able to do

00:23:01.960 that. And that's really sad. There's no uncomfortable conversation about what an abortion is. They

00:23:07.280 completely ignore the human life. Now, you're hoping that this pastor, as she calls herself,

00:23:15.400 Chelsea Smith, the Christian voice in all of this, would be kind of the other side, would say,

00:23:21.700 hey, you know, I sympathize with your stories. I'm sorry for what you went through. I'm sorry for

00:23:26.280 any hurt that you have experienced. And I'm sorry that you felt like that was the option. But hey,

00:23:33.260 let us also recognize that child in the womb was made in the image of God, that God knit them

00:23:38.900 together in their mother's womb and that they were created with purpose and abortion kills them. So

00:23:43.280 like, let's have, that would be an uncomfortable conversation that I would have liked to see that

00:23:47.500 I think the audience would have benefited from. But here's the first thing that Chelsea Smith has to

00:23:52.260 say. I'm also very aware that I'm a white woman sitting here and that whether it's the mortality rate

00:24:01.480 of pregnant women of color or the amount of abortions that affect women of color is much

00:24:06.120 more than white women.

00:24:07.160 So I just want to, I just want to pause right there. Of course, she had to do like the,

00:24:11.800 I'm very aware that I'm a white woman. She is the only like white person sitting there. And I guess

00:24:15.800 you just have to, I don't know, confess your skin color. So people recognize and confess her

00:24:20.500 privilege. I think that's kind of what she's implicitly doing there. And I just want to pause because

00:24:24.120 I know it might seem like it, it doesn't matter with the big picture, but I do think it's important

00:24:29.300 to just kind of not correct that information, but give some context about what she is saying.

00:24:35.420 So it is true that the maternal mortality rate among black women is higher than among white and

00:24:40.080 Hispanic women. One thing that's not discussed because the assumption is always that it is racism,

00:24:46.240 it's systemic racism within the healthcare system, which I am not discounting real instances of racism

00:24:51.580 that leads to adverse health outcomes for black women. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. I'm not

00:24:56.180 saying that's not a problem. I don't disbelieve the women who have said that they have had disparate

00:25:00.680 treatment because of their skin color, but it is never talked about that. There may very well be

00:25:07.060 other reasons why that disparity exists. The highest cause of maternal mortality, according to the CDC,

00:25:13.180 is heart disease. Also, according to the CDC, black Americans are in general, two times more likely to

00:25:19.120 die from heart disease than white people. That's all black Americans, not just black pregnant women. So

00:25:24.600 you would think that that probably has something to do with it. Also, by far, the number one cause of

00:25:31.740 maternal mortality across all races, which I'm not saying that Chelsea Smith is discounting this. I don't

00:25:36.620 even know if she knows this, but I'm just saying this is never talked about. When we are talking about

00:25:41.120 disparities when it comes to how pregnant women are treated among races, this is never discussed, that black

00:25:48.140 pregnant women are three times more likely to die by intimate partner homicide than white or Hispanic

00:25:55.480 women. And by far, the number one cause of maternal mortality across all races is homicide. Now, that's

00:26:02.260 not included in the CDC numbers. Unfortunately, I think it should be. I think that should be talked

00:26:08.780 about a lot more. Black pregnant postpartum women three times more likely to die by the intimate

00:26:15.760 partner homicide than white or Hispanic. Black women who are pregnant or postpartum are eight times more

00:26:21.540 likely to be murdered by their partner than black women who are not pregnant or postpartum. There are

00:26:27.460 two studies that I can link in the description of this episode that you can look at yourself that show

00:26:33.100 that. So I do think that this is yet another statistic that is typically put forth to say,

00:26:38.720 see, systemic racism exists everywhere when that really doesn't show us the whole picture or

00:26:44.020 diagnose the problems properly. Also, she says the amount of abortions affect women of color.

00:26:51.000 That's much more than white women. She's true about. She's right about that. That is true. Sadly,

00:26:56.440 about one third of all abortions are performed on black women, even though they only make up about six to

00:27:01.460 seven percent of the population. So about thirty three percent plus of all abortions in the United

00:27:07.180 States are performed on black women, even though they only make up six to seven percent of the

00:27:12.060 population. So it's wildly disproportionate. The abortion rate among black women is about 25 per

00:27:16.760 1000 women. And among white women, it's about six per 1000 women. And there may be many reasons for

00:27:22.160 this, but no matter how you shake it, that's a tragedy that is not talked about here. And consistently,

00:27:27.680 more black babies are aborted in New York City in a year than born alive. Like, why aren't we talking

00:27:34.760 about that travesty? All of these like woke churches in New York City that refuse to celebrate

00:27:40.240 the overturning of Roe v. Wade because they claim Christians need to be doing more for women, which

00:27:45.240 I'll get into in a little bit how much Christians already do for these vulnerable women. Like, are they

00:27:51.540 not on the hook at all for the fact that black women in New York City are more likely to abort their

00:27:57.160 baby than to birth their baby alive? Then Emmanuel asks Chelsea why the church has

00:28:04.580 either been insensitive or silent. He says that's basically what describes the church, insensitive

00:28:10.500 or silent. And she says that she's been quiet because she's humbled. She says it's impossible

00:28:16.820 to figure out how to follow the teaching of Jesus to rejoice with those who rejoice and to mourn

00:28:22.620 with those who mourn. And then here's a snippet of one thing that she said that I that I want to

00:28:29.420 respond to. And I am embarrassed by some of the rejoicing at the at the cost of somebody's pain.

00:28:38.180 Oh, so she's embarrassed by the people who were rejoicing for the overturning of Roe v. Wade. So

00:28:45.960 I've got a lot to say. As I said at the beginning, the most of what I have to say is to what Chelsea

00:28:53.820 Smith says, especially since she is supposed to be the representative of the church here. She's

00:28:58.320 supposed to be the representative of Christianity. And I'm not saying that she's not saved. I'm not

00:29:03.400 saying that she hasn't done maybe, you know, a lot of wonderful things and that her ministry has never

00:29:09.040 impacted people. That's that's not what I'm saying. I am saying that at least in what we see in this

00:29:14.680 video, she gets it so awfully wrong that it is painful. It was painful to watch and painful

00:29:22.180 to listen to. So here's what I have to say to that. She's embarrassed by this decision,

00:29:28.360 this Dobbs decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. Has she read the decision? I have my doubts.

00:29:32.660 And that we're supposed to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn. I think

00:29:35.620 she totally decontextualizes and misuses that verse. The reality is, is that Christians rejoice in

00:29:41.260 righteousness. Always. Unequivocally. This is what Psalm 33 5 says. He loves righteousness. The

00:29:48.640 Lord loves righteousness and justice. He loves it. The earth is full of the steadfast love of the Lord.

00:29:55.920 Celebrating the Dobbs decision isn't even, though, celebrating righteousness. It's celebrating the

00:30:02.420 potential of righteousness. And this is what I mean by that. Dobbs doesn't declare abortion illegal.

00:30:08.000 It doesn't recognize the personhood of the baby inside the womb. It just allows states to decide

00:30:13.840 their laws on abortion. A righteous law would outlaw abortion. Making clear that life-saving care for

00:30:20.020 women in miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies or early delivery is not considered abortion and should

00:30:25.300 not be prohibited by law. That is worth celebrating. And the potential of that law is worth celebrating as

00:30:31.760 well because of the Dobbs decision. That pre-born human beings are now going to be more protected

00:30:38.340 by law in many states is worth unabashedly celebrating. That some people in the world are so darkened in

00:30:46.080 their understanding about this issue, it is not a reason to withhold our celebration. There are six

00:30:54.240 things that the Lord hates. Seven that are an abomination to him. Haughty eyes. A lying tongue. Hands that shed

00:31:00.920 innocent blood. A heart that devises wicked plans. Feet that make haste to run to evil. That's Proverbs

00:31:08.300 6, 16 through 18. If you love God, you will hate what he hates. You will hate the shedding of innocent

00:31:15.780 blood. You will love the unborn child. And you will also love these women, which means that you will not

00:31:21.800 want them to take part in that which God hates. And for those who already have, they've already taken part

00:31:28.700 in that. You don't minimize the evil that is abortion to make them feel better. Why? Because

00:31:34.960 your goal as a disciple of Christ and as a discipler of others, as a Christ follower, wanting to draw

00:31:41.540 others to Christ, which Christians inherently do, is to bring people to repentance. Not to assuage

00:31:47.100 their feelings of guilt. Not to make them feel better about sin. Not to help them justify their sin or help

00:31:53.580 them shift blame toward other people. No. Your job is to help them in gentleness and grace. See and face

00:32:00.640 what is true so they can honestly repent and be healed. Trying to make someone feel better about

00:32:06.820 their sin when they have yet to own that and repent from it is actually delaying healing for that person.

00:32:13.160 And that is not love. Love is a desire for someone's good. As God defines good. This is, again, a professing

00:32:23.620 Christian, as we say so often, thinking that they can out-love and out-compassion God. So sure, God says

00:32:30.380 he hates the shedding of innocent blood, but I can't say that here. Sure, God says thou shalt not murder.

00:32:35.740 Sure, God says that he formed us in the womb with purpose and care, but that might be too harsh.

00:32:40.200 I can't celebrate a just ruling that may lead to righteous laws. I can't celebrate that because

00:32:45.700 that may make someone feel bad. That may add to someone's pain. So basically, that's saying that

00:32:51.620 you are more loving and kinder and more considerate than God. The God who is love. 1 John 4.8.

00:32:58.420 God is love. And he is also holy. And he is also righteous. And he is also just all at the same time.

00:33:05.160 I'm reminded of Romans 2.4. Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and

00:33:14.040 patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? So the kindness of God

00:33:22.200 is supposed to lead you to repentance. So contrary to what the world says, making someone feel better

00:33:29.680 about their sin is not love. Guilt over sin is good. For godly grief produces a repentance that

00:33:37.940 leads to salvation without regret. Whereas worldly grief produces death. 2 Corinthians 7.10. There's

00:33:45.220 no godly grief on display in this conversation. There is justification. There's willful suppression

00:33:51.760 of the truth. It actually reminds me of a passage that most of you guys are really familiar with.

00:33:57.640 And that is Romans 1.18-22.

00:34:00.220 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

00:34:05.780 who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them

00:34:11.260 because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine

00:34:17.020 nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have

00:34:22.560 been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, which seems to describe the women in

00:34:29.520 this video, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their

00:34:34.320 thinking. And their foolish hearts were darkened, claiming to be wise. They, claiming to be wise,

00:34:40.620 they became fools. And that saddens me. Again, this is not coming from a position, surely, of perfection

00:34:48.480 on my part. Like, I have no sins that I have struggled over or that I never had any faulty

00:34:54.060 thinking at any point in my faith. That's certainly not what I'm saying. We have all had points in our

00:34:58.960 faith, even after we have been truly saved, where we had bad theology, where we didn't feel guilt over

00:35:03.500 our mistakes, where we didn't realize the evil that we did before we were Christians. But the Holy Spirit

00:35:09.920 is supposed to sanctify you of that, and Christians are supposed to be vessels of that Holy Spirit.

00:35:13.920 And Chelsea Smith, in this video, fails. Now, after repentance, feelings of condemnation from the

00:35:22.280 deceiver, from the accuser, Satan should be silenced. But they're not silenced by someone saying that what

00:35:29.240 you did wasn't sin or refusing to say that what you did was sin. But by pointing to God's goodness, his

00:35:34.840 holiness and forgiveness. Those accusations by Satan toward the Christian are silenced by the reminder that

00:35:41.900 Christ is standing in your stead to silence the accuser by pointing to his righteousness, which he has

00:35:47.220 given to you by grace through faith. But that is not what is going on in this video. And as you can see,

00:35:52.060 it really makes me angry when people miss such a blatant opportunity, which we all have. We all have.

00:35:58.080 But such a blatant opportunity to share the gospel to women who obviously so desperately need the healing

00:36:04.140 and the goodness of God that comes through the kindness that leads them to repentance. And yet, what is

00:36:10.660 going on in this video, which is only uncomfortable for me, for people like me, it's obviously not

00:36:16.400 uncomfortable for any of them because all they're doing is the justification of sin. Now, not the

00:36:21.740 ectopic pregnancy story. I'm not talking about a sin, but the purposeful killing of a child inside the

00:36:28.180 womb. They're making excuses for the murder of children without a single acknowledgement so far of

00:36:33.900 what an abortion procedure is or the life that's being taken. I am for hearing stories of women who have

00:36:40.080 had abortions and pouring out compassion for them and shedding tears for them. We had a woman on here

00:36:45.640 last fall. Victoria Robinson will link that past episode who told her abortion story. And we both

00:36:50.900 cried. I could cry right now thinking about just how compelling and sad her story is. But the difference

00:36:56.540 in that story is that she has grieved over her choice and she has allowed the Lord to forgive her,

00:37:02.160 to heal her, to use her in redemptive ways, to warn other women about the dangers and the evils

00:37:07.140 and the deceit of abortion. But again, that is not what is happening here. Affirmation of sin is not

00:37:14.160 love. It is actually a form of hate. It's selfishness, which is a form of hate because you

00:37:19.240 care more about how that person perceives you than what is actually good for that person. What God says

00:37:24.760 is good for that person. And it's a shame. It's a shame. These women in this instance are not being loved

00:37:29.740 because they are not being told the truth. They are being made to feel good about evil. And we are

00:37:36.780 going to continue to see that on display here. So Emmanuel asks Chelsea, well, what should the church

00:37:43.840 do about all this? What role can and should the church play to support those now that are not

00:37:52.660 empowered to make the decision? As I think about the story of Jesus with a woman who was caught in the

00:37:57.600 midst of adultery. And that's very much a woman-based story in the Bible because she was caught in the

00:38:03.360 very act. So where was the man in this story? You know, very similar to a woman facing an unwanted

00:38:08.620 pregnancy. She just could be left alone the same way this woman was left alone. And in this moment,

00:38:14.860 Jesus didn't say anything. It's one of the beautiful silent moments of Jesus. And he just got down and wrote

00:38:21.000 in the dirt. And then he's just said this incredible statement. He said, let him who is without sin

00:38:26.640 throw the first stone. And I think as Christians, as faith leaders, as community leaders, we need to

00:38:34.780 be really in touch with our own shortcomings and our own weaknesses so that we aren't prone to just

00:38:41.780 chucking those stones because it feels good. Oh man, once again, I have a lot to say. I have a lot to say

00:38:47.540 about this response. So first, his question is loaded with very obvious bias. So it's a gut-wrenching

00:38:56.020 decision, as he describes it. But you know what's gut-wrenching? Abortion. Abortion crushes the

00:39:00.960 skull of a living baby. Then also, he says, women won't be empowered to make that decision.

00:39:07.420 So you're empowering someone by legalizing the killing of an unborn child. So it's very obvious

00:39:14.060 the perspective that he's coming from. Now, on to her response. What a strange answer. So he asks,

00:39:20.080 what role does the church play? And she goes to John 8. So multiple reasons this is strange. So

00:39:26.520 one, I think that this passage, John 8, is being misused. And I think it's being misunderstood a

00:39:31.320 lot. I misunderstood this passage until recently, until I looked at—I heard this explained in a

00:39:41.320 very clear, expositional way, looking at the biblical and historical context about this.

00:39:45.140 So this is not a passage about forgiveness, actually. It's not primarily. It's actually

00:39:50.140 a passage primarily about hypocrisy. It is not a passage, as she seems to be implying,

00:39:54.820 telling us not to call out sin where it exists. It is a passage about how much God hates sin and

00:39:59.960 pride and fake righteousness and false obedience. The context of the story is hugely important to

00:40:05.340 knowing what it means. And this is actually important to understand what we're talking about

00:40:11.080 in general here. So as Jesus was used to during his ministry, the Jewish scribes and Pharisees

00:40:17.780 in this passage were trying to trap Jesus with difficult questions about the law. You see that

00:40:22.340 also in Matthew 19. They ask him about divorce and marriage and all of that. And as Jesus typically

00:40:29.660 does, he answers them with a tougher challenge than the challenge that they are trying to give to him.

00:40:38.620 So here's what the passage says. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught

00:40:42.720 in adultery. And placing her in the midst, they said to him, Teacher, this woman has been caught

00:40:46.840 in the act of adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such a woman. What do you

00:40:51.800 say? This they said to test him that they might have some charge to bring against him. So Jesus,

00:40:58.640 knowing everything, knew that this was a test. And as he often did, he responded to their attempt to

00:41:03.780 prove his misunderstanding of the law by proving their misunderstanding of the law. So he responds,

00:41:09.520 you who are without sin, be the one to cast the first stone. And they all drop their stones and

00:41:13.880 they walk away. So what does he mean by that? So the problem with the Pharisee is just to kind of give

00:41:20.500 some context. The problem with the Pharisees isn't that they were too holy or too righteous or too

00:41:26.000 obedient. That's what a lot of people like to say today, or that they were too religious.

00:41:29.100 It was that they looked holy and righteous and religious and obedient, but that their hearts

00:41:34.320 were unrighteous and irreligious and disobedient. They followed the letter of the law and even added

00:41:39.980 to the law, but they did not follow the spirit of the law, the heart of the law. They added to and

00:41:44.920 manipulated and finagled the law to place an impossible burden on the average person so they

00:41:50.140 could look like they were the only people who could bear that heavy burden of the law of Moses.

00:41:54.880 And in this instance, that's what they were doing. They looked like they were following the law

00:41:59.340 by calling for the execution of this woman because Leviticus 2010 called for the death penalty for

00:42:04.460 those who commit adultery. But Jesus knew that they weren't following the full law. So what was the

00:42:10.680 full actual law? The actual law called for both the man and the woman caught in adultery to be put to

00:42:17.680 death. That's Leviticus 2010. Also, God demanded due process before penalties for crime, which included

00:42:23.940 the testimony of two or three eyewitnesses. That's Deuteronomy 17, 6 through 7. So we don't see here

00:42:29.860 that any of these men were eyewitnesses. So when Jesus says, you who were without sin cast the first

00:42:35.860 stone, he is not speaking of sin in general. He's not saying, oh, no sin should be condemned because

00:42:41.120 that would mean that there could never be any punishment for sin. And clearly God doesn't think

00:42:45.600 that as we see throughout scripture, he is talking about their sinful hypocrisy in this instance.

00:42:51.000 They are not actually following the law that they say that they are. They are about to stone this

00:42:55.180 woman for breaking the law, even while they are breaking the law because they are not punishing

00:43:00.660 the man. They are apparently not witnesses here. So what Jesus is doing is calling out their hypocrisy

00:43:08.860 as he told the Pharisees, they are like whitewashed tombs. They look good on the outside, but they're

00:43:14.340 decaying on the inside. As Jesus also says, he doesn't come to abolish the law. A lot of people see this

00:43:19.440 passage as abolishing the law or abolishing standards for right and wrong or negating the need for

00:43:24.940 condemnation and calling out sin. But Jesus says that he came to fulfill the law. So this is an

00:43:29.540 instance of Jesus fulfilling the law, of taking the law to the next level, the heart level, which is

00:43:35.120 what he always does when he says things like, it's not enough not to commit adultery, but you also must

00:43:40.280 not lust in your heart. It's not enough not to murder. You also must not hate in your heart. So this

00:43:46.300 is Jesus doing that. Again, people think that this is Jesus saying, oh, well, you know, we shouldn't be

00:43:51.260 talking about sin or calling out sin at all. No, he has taken it to the heart of the matter.

00:43:56.040 So a Christian shouldn't be hypocritical in calling out a sin while they are committing sin. That's

00:44:01.860 absolutely true. And if that's what she's saying here, I guess I agree with her. It doesn't seem like

00:44:06.240 that's what she's saying. But that does not mean that we are not to call out sin and call sinners to

00:44:11.380 repentance. I mean, if you read all of the epistles to the early church, you will see Paul calling out

00:44:16.800 sin and exhorting leaders in the church to do the same. Ephesians 4, 14 through 16, so that we may no

00:44:23.220 longer be children tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human

00:44:28.080 cunning, by craftiness and deceitful schemes, rather speaking the truth in love. We are to grow up in

00:44:33.880 every way into him who is the head into Christ. Paul says this to Timothy, preach the word, be ready in

00:44:40.220 season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, and exhort with complete patience and teaching, for the time

00:44:47.060 is coming when people will not endure sound teaching. 2 Timothy 4, 2 through 3. Now, another reason why

00:44:55.380 this, I think, is a weird response to Emmanuel saying, so what should the church do? Like, maybe it was

00:45:00.440 edited out, but in the answer that they include, like, she doesn't even talk about, like, tangibly what

00:45:06.480 the church can be doing. Like, how can we help vulnerable women? How can we help pregnant women?

00:45:11.120 She doesn't even mention that here, or they don't include it if she did mention it, you know, in

00:45:17.080 another part of the conversation. She doesn't even talk about all the work that the church is doing

00:45:22.440 and has been doing for several decades to help these women and children and fathers, these families.

00:45:28.240 She says women with unwanted pregnancies are left alone. So the answer to that for the church is to

00:45:34.240 not be too judgmental. How about we continue to dedicate our time, our money, and our resources

00:45:39.740 and our help and our love to these women as pro-life pregnancy centers that are run by pro-life

00:45:46.760 Christians have been doing for decades. Again, I ask, as I said on an episode a couple weeks ago, I ask

00:45:53.640 these finger-wagging Christians who claim that Christians now need to be doing XYZ or acting in a

00:46:01.060 certain manner, having a certain tone after a row. Look, we've been out here. We've been doing the

00:46:06.140 work. What have you been doing? Like, you're welcome to get off the couch and join us. Like,

00:46:10.280 you're welcome to get out of these so-called uncomfortable conversations and do the work

00:46:15.720 that Christian pro-lifers have been doing for these communities for decades. But we're not interested

00:46:20.280 in your chiding and your misapplication of scripture. That is not helping anyone.

00:46:31.060 All right. So Sonia, the athlete, talks about her experience again and how her fiance, who is now her

00:46:42.020 husband, reacted to her decision to get an abortion in 2008. My husband understood the situation that

00:46:49.000 we were in. Yeah. We were in. This was something that we had done together. At the time, Ross and I

00:46:55.940 were not planning to start a family. That was not on our to-do list. And so I do feel like my husband

00:47:02.520 realized we were in this together. The part about that was always challenging for me, however,

00:47:07.940 and I write about it in my book, is that he never, ever said, do it. Wow.

00:47:16.320 And I think a part of it for him was if I never actually say it, in some ways, I remove the burden

00:47:23.140 of having an abortion. So is that unfair to you? Very.

00:47:30.100 So she later says in this that she wished she had had the option to not have the responsibility to

00:47:37.400 bear in this choice as her husband did. But she did. She did have the option. She could have not

00:47:45.960 done it. She could have not done it. If she is worried about bearing that responsibility,

00:47:50.540 she could have made a different decision. Now, I will say that her husband does bear responsibility

00:47:57.740 here. He might pretend, not saying do it, abdicates the responsibility that he has, but

00:48:05.560 it actually doesn't. I mean, this is so similar to the Garden of Eden, is it not? So Satan says to

00:48:10.480 the woman, did God really say you will die if you eat of this fruit? Did God say this is wrong? No,

00:48:16.300 eat it. He's just afraid that you'll be like God. Of course, I'm paraphrasing Genesis 3 here.

00:48:21.480 Apparently, Adam just stood there. I mean, he knew better. He knew what God had said. He had heard

00:48:25.900 God's command that you can eat of any fruit of any tree in the garden except for the tree of the

00:48:30.020 knowledge of good and evil. And he did nothing to stop it. And then when God recognized or when God

00:48:36.540 confronted them about what he knew happened and he asked Adam, what went on here, Adam blamed Eve.

00:48:46.220 And that didn't go over very well. They were both responsible. According to God, they were both

00:48:49.680 cursed. So the same thing obviously happened here. Satan tempted her, tempted her into thinking that

00:48:56.720 God didn't really say that this was wrong, that she could be like God in the sense that she would

00:49:02.100 have more power. She would have more of an ability to pursue her dreams. And the father of her child,

00:49:07.100 she says, was silent. But he does bear responsibility for that in God's eyes. And so I do hope, I really

00:49:14.360 do hope that the grace of God brings them to their knees and to a point of really being able to reckon

00:49:19.460 with this choice. Unfortunately, this video is, this conversation that they're having in this video

00:49:26.800 is going to do nothing to bring them there. If anything, it's going to push them further away.

00:49:32.100 Um, all right. And then MJ Acosta Ruiz says that she kind of had the opposite situation and that she

00:49:40.680 was actually pressured to have an abortion. So here she is saying that. You just mentioned that your

00:49:45.500 husband never said do it. When I had an abortion, my partner at the time said do it. So it was a

00:49:51.720 completely different where I felt unsupported in a completely different way. Um, not, well, yes,

00:49:57.880 pressured. That's really sad. And that's really common. Women are very often pressured and it's

00:50:03.700 interesting how she doesn't say that in the beginning when she's describing it, she acts like

00:50:08.680 this was a decision that she made on her own because she didn't want to disappoint her parents

00:50:12.300 and for financial reasons. And now she mentions that actually she felt pressured. And I do wonder

00:50:18.280 like if she had felt supported by the person who chose to, who chose to impregnate her, um,

00:50:24.060 who was a part of the conception, if she had been supported, would she had have had still

00:50:29.640 made, would she have still made this decision? I don't know. And it's kind of strange how pro

00:50:35.960 choice, pro abortion advocates talk so much about women's autonomy and their choice. And

00:50:40.460 they very rarely talk about the women who feel pressured by their boyfriend or their boss

00:50:44.880 or their parents or their pimp to get an abortion. All right. Um, let's hear the next part

00:50:50.120 of this. And I think it is unfair for somebody who I have never met, who cares nothing about me

00:50:55.560 to make a decision about my body. So she's talking about, she doesn't think that these

00:51:01.640 laws should are legitimate because they're made by people who like have never met you and who don't

00:51:08.020 care anything about you. But I mean, that's true of all laws, right? Like all laws have something to

00:51:13.720 do for the most part with what you do with your body. Like you can't use your body to assault

00:51:17.700 someone. There is someone who created that law, who doesn't know you and who doesn't care about

00:51:21.900 you. There are laws that say that you cannot use your body to murder someone. There are all types

00:51:26.200 of laws that restrict what we can do with our body. And they're made by people who are, you know,

00:51:31.080 in a faraway place who don't know us. So this doesn't delegitimize the law. And also we're not making

00:51:38.060 a law that restricts what you do with your reproductive choices when it comes to your body. I mean,

00:51:45.060 obviously you had the freedom to make the choice to have the sex that led to the pregnancy. And there

00:51:51.860 is no law restricting that. There is a law restricting what you can do to another human

00:51:57.960 being, a distinct human being's body. All right. This is another trope that we hear a lot. And this

00:52:06.080 is Emmanuel saying this one.

00:52:08.080 No woman wants to have an abortion.

00:52:10.420 Okay. I'm sorry, but that's just not true. It's not true. Sadly, it's not true. First of all,

00:52:15.920 while these women may have wrestled with it, they ultimately did what they wanted to do.

00:52:20.020 And this, I mean, they say that they ultimately did what they wanted to do. Maybe they felt like

00:52:23.960 they had to do it. Maybe they did feel pressured, but in this, in this video, they make pretty clear

00:52:31.260 that ultimately they did what they wanted. Maybe he means no one is happy about having an abortion,

00:52:36.760 but I wouldn't say that's necessarily true either. I mean, there's an entire organization

00:52:40.740 called Shout Your Abortion. If you go on TikTok, you will find women happy to have an abortion,

00:52:46.360 bragging about their abortions. I don't think that's the majority of women who have abortions,

00:52:50.000 but they do exist. So to say that no one wants to have an abortion, I just don't think that that

00:52:55.560 is true. Michelle Williams, Busy Phillips, celebrity after celebrity has said that they're glad that they

00:53:00.260 had an abortion. And in this conversation, the athlete, Sonia said that the abortion saved her

00:53:07.360 figurative life and allowed her to show up in the world the way that she wanted to. And so it doesn't

00:53:13.900 sound to me like they didn't want to have the abortions that they did, even if it was a difficult

00:53:18.940 decision. I just think it's wrong, incorrect of him to say that, even judging on the conversation that

00:53:24.220 he is having right now, here's something else he has to say. By saying I am pro-choice, it's implying

00:53:31.300 that I am anti-life. But the choice you made literally saved your life. Now he is talking to

00:53:39.860 Dr. Abraham here. And again, an ectopic pregnancy removal is not an abortion. It's not an abortion.

00:53:48.240 It is not considered the same thing as purposely killing a child inside the womb. And now if you are for

00:53:53.500 the choice, like if you are for the choice of someone abusing someone, you can't say that you

00:53:57.440 are against it. Maybe you can say, OK, you're not for it, but you're saying, well, you're against

00:54:03.160 rape, you're against assault, you're against theft, but you don't actually think there should be any

00:54:07.260 restriction on it. Then that at the very least means that you're not actually against it. Here is

00:54:13.200 what Dr. Abraham says about what she thinks about the the consequences of overturning Roe v. Wade.

00:54:19.460 This overturning of Roe v. Wade has eliminated the nuance, has now said you've got to either be on

00:54:26.360 one side or the other. And if you're not on the right side, per the law, you're in trouble.

00:54:33.200 So first, my response to that is nuance. That word is so often used as an excuse to ignore reality

00:54:40.300 and morality. Abortion, as we've said many times, brutally ends the life of a human being, period.

00:54:46.360 That is not ectopic pregnancy treatment. That is not miscarriage treatment. That is not early

00:54:51.220 delivery to help the woman live. Everyone agrees that the mother's life is just as valuable. The

00:54:56.320 pro-life position is that every measure should always be taken to save both the mother's and

00:55:00.260 the child's life. That's impossible in an ectopic pregnancy. The mother is the only one with a chance

00:55:05.300 of survival. So you have to tragically remove the baby. That is not the same as killing a living

00:55:10.040 human being in the uterus. I'll say that over and over again.

00:55:12.460 Over, overturning Roe does not remove any nuance, if you want to call it that. I mean,

00:55:19.520 have these people even read Dobbs? Roe eliminated any nuance because no state was allowed to restrict

00:55:27.780 abortion before a certain point. So states had to allow abortion, even if its constituents didn't

00:55:34.240 want it to be legal. Talk about a lack of so-called nuance. And then we have this explanation.

00:55:42.440 of why she believes being pro-choice is correct. Like to me, pro-choice introduces and infuses

00:55:50.080 the nuances and compassion. So that was Sonia. So much nuance. So much nuance. Is it compassion

00:55:58.260 to give the powerful the choice to kill the vulnerable and the defenseless? That's an interesting

00:56:05.180 definition of compassion. And then this is what Acosta Ruiz has to say.

00:56:09.760 I feel it's about power and control more so than anything else. And so that is the part

00:56:15.260 that I just can't sit with and be silent about.

00:56:20.460 Again, who has the power and control in an abortion? The only person without power and control

00:56:29.080 in this scenario is the baby. Unless the woman is being forced to have an abortion. And then

00:56:34.720 in that case, she doesn't have power or control either. But in the vast majority of these abortions,

00:56:40.220 the power and control is being exercised by the woman and the doctor over a baby who doesn't have

00:56:47.980 any power or control. That's the only reason why we're having this conversation. By the way,

00:56:51.340 that's the only reason why this is nuanced and why this is complex and why this is great. The only

00:56:58.380 reason that we're talking about this in these terms is because this baby doesn't have any power or have

00:57:06.620 any control because it can't defend itself. That's the only reason why we're having these conversations

00:57:12.600 with this like mood music in the background to distract from what an abortion is because this

00:57:18.960 baby doesn't have any power or control. So here is something else that Acosta Ruiz has to say.

00:57:26.000 Multiple things can be true. You can hold space for a lot of different things. You can love God.

00:57:32.460 You can be a member of your church. You can choose to have an abortion and you can still be a good

00:57:36.540 person all at the same time. So there's so much wrong with this statement. First, like what is meant

00:57:44.120 by a good person? Mark 10, 18. No one is good except God alone. Jesus says that. Now, to be fair,

00:57:50.160 I don't fault her for using that phrase. We all have. We know what we mean that we're saying someone is not

00:57:55.920 like a mean person or they're generally kind. But look, abortion is bad. It is unkind. It is violent.

00:58:03.000 So while absolutely there is grace and forgiveness for all sinners, including women who have had

00:58:08.440 abortions, including for abortionists, it is wrong to say that there is no disconnect between goodness

00:58:13.900 and abortion. Someone who is truly saved will not be able to justify abortion either in their own

00:58:20.060 life or in general forever. If they are truly saved, the Holy Spirit will sanctify them of that belief.

00:58:26.680 Or perhaps they are just not saved. Like, I don't know if these women are saved or not. Maybe they are

00:58:32.020 and the Holy Spirit is working on them on this subject. I hope so. I've certainly had false beliefs while

00:58:37.180 being a Christian. But to say that there is no incongruence between going to church and abortions and

00:58:43.700 goodness and abortions is just, again, suppressing the truth. It's making hearts callous. And then

00:58:53.020 Acho asks Chelsea about Christians who use Psalm 139, you know the passage where I formed you

00:59:01.820 in your mother's womb. A lot of pro-lifers use that passage to say, look, like God perfectly and

00:59:08.700 purposely designs babies inside the womb. They're made in the image of God. And so he wants to know

00:59:16.460 what Chelsea has to think about that. I have so much empathy and understanding for followers of

00:59:23.220 Jesus who would say, I believe that life begins at conception. And I believe that stopping an

00:59:28.320 abortion is saving a life. That's a very, saving a life is a very valid cause.

00:59:33.200 But that's not the only life that we're called to save. If you're pro-life, there's a lot of life.

00:59:46.420 It's also taking one verse and making that as making that one verse, Psalm 139, making that as black and

00:59:54.960 white as the verses of the forgiveness and love of Jesus Christ. It's one verse versus thousands and

01:00:01.960 thousands of verses that are in the Bible. And we have a conviction is when we look at the Bible is

01:00:07.200 we put the emphasis where God puts the emphasis and he puts the emphasis on love. He puts the

01:00:12.860 emphasis on forgiveness. He puts the emphasis on compassion. And so as a follower of Jesus,

01:00:18.660 wouldn't I put the emphasis there? So much, so much. First of all, that's not how we interpret

01:00:25.780 scripture. We don't say, well, let's count how many times God says this and then decide what he

01:00:29.960 really wants us to take away based on that. Second Timothy 3, 16 through 17.

01:00:35.260 All scripture is breathed out by God, profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for

01:00:39.500 training in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

01:00:46.120 Also, Psalm 139 is not the only passage we look to. Even if it were, that would be okay, but it's not.

01:00:52.040 What about all the commands not to murder? What about all the passages about love, which she

01:00:57.300 says that we are to emphasize? What about the fruit of the Spirit? Love, joy, peace, patience,

01:01:01.800 kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, abortion, the act of killing a

01:01:05.680 human being made in God's image is the opposite of these things. It is the opposite of love.

01:01:10.340 There is nothing loving or compassionate about killing an innocent person that God has purposely

01:01:15.440 made in his image, in the womb, just because they're underdeveloped, just because they're young,

01:01:21.300 just because they're small, just because they happen to reside in a certain location that we

01:01:26.060 can't see in a mother's womb. God is love. And he says some things are wrong and evil and sinful,

01:01:34.040 one of them being murder, one of them being child sacrifice. We are not going to outlove him by

01:01:40.820 denying those things. That is self-idolatry. That is self-righteousness to think that you can.

01:01:46.740 I cannot say enough about how much Chelsea Smith, and I think that this is the nicest and the kindest

01:01:56.380 way that I can say this. As a fellow believer, as a sister in Christ, I hope that we are truly

01:02:02.900 sisters in Christ, how badly she failed here. Now, if she says, you know, wow, I did fail. I didn't

01:02:09.460 share the gospel here. I didn't share the truth about sin and repentance. I didn't draw them towards

01:02:14.200 Christ and towards healing, and I should have done that. Like, yeah, we've all made mistakes. Okay,

01:02:18.260 we've all failed publicly and privately. It's hard to have a public platform. It's hard to be in those

01:02:21.880 positions and say the right thing. There's like so much grace for that. I'm glad that I have grace

01:02:26.360 for doing the same thing. So I'm not saying, wow, there can be no forgiveness or like restoration for

01:02:32.380 this person. But like, let's just acknowledge that this was such an utter disaster and failure.

01:02:39.680 As someone who claims to be a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you didn't share the

01:02:44.440 gospel. The gospel isn't Jesus loves you. The gospel isn't that you shouldn't feel bad for your

01:02:49.760 sins. The gospel is that we are all dead in our sin apart from Christ, and only by grace through faith

01:02:54.740 can we be made alive in him. Part of that process that graciously the Holy Spirit works out through us

01:03:02.480 and also through fellow believers is repentance, repentance from sin, dying to our flesh, dying to

01:03:09.360 our sin, becoming a new creation by the power of Christ. God uses the truth of his word. God uses

01:03:17.240 the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God uses the boldness of other Christians to do that. And he

01:03:23.100 doesn't need us. God can do the work entirely on his own, but he does choose to use us as vessels of

01:03:29.380 truth. And here she was not. She was not. She made sin seem more palatable. She never acknowledged the

01:03:37.640 other side of this debate. She never acknowledged the dignity of the child inside the womb. She never

01:03:42.100 acknowledged the work that the church has been doing. She never drew these women to repentance,

01:03:47.500 into a knowledge of the truth, and into the hands of the healer. She didn't do that because it seems like

01:03:54.500 she cared more about how she was perceived and making these women feel good, not just about

01:04:00.020 themselves, but also about her, than she did actually stepping in to what should have been an

01:04:04.900 uncomfortable conversation with the gospel of Jesus. And that is who my ire is mostly directed at

01:04:12.320 here. I feel for these women. I'm sad for these women, for what they experienced. I hope that they

01:04:17.880 hear this and listen to this and see this and know that the grace of God is for them,

01:04:24.960 that it is painful when someone turns on the lights, when you've been sleeping for a long time

01:04:28.740 in darkness, it hurts your eyes and you kind of get angry, but the light is so much better than

01:04:34.060 darkness. Having the truth revealed to you, being confronted with your sin really hurts. It's really

01:04:39.740 hard to give that up, to let that go, and to recognize the depravity that we are all guilty of.

01:04:47.040 It's really difficult to grapple with the evil that is inside you, but there is nothing that you

01:04:51.920 have done that is too big or too much for God to forgive, but do not deny your sin. Stop suppressing

01:04:58.980 the truth. God is there for you, but the suppression of the truth is only going to lead to your bondage,

01:05:05.840 not your liberation. So this is such an incredible failure of a conversation. It's such a disastrous

01:05:12.740 conversation. And I hope that hopefully I've added a little bit of clarity. And I hope that everyone

01:05:20.120 who watched that video comes to watch this video too, for a varying perspective, for a little bit

01:05:26.340 of harsh truth in an actual uncomfortable conversation.

01:05:40.360 All right. So I know that was a longer episode, but I hope you guys enjoyed it. It's different than

01:05:44.680 what we typically do. If that's something that you like, if you liked that format, if you liked that

01:05:49.620 kind of like listen and response format, please let me know. If you love this podcast, please leave a

01:05:56.300 five-star review wherever you listen. Subscribe on YouTube. Don't forget, we've got lots of good

01:06:00.860 merch. We can link that in the description of this episode. Hats, t-shirts, stickers, they make for

01:06:05.820 great gifts for yourself or for someone who loves Relatable. Thank you guys as always for listening.

01:06:12.140 I really appreciate it. And we will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 12, 2022

Ep 641 ｜ RESPONSE： Emmanuel Acho’s 'Uncomfortable' Abortion Conversation

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