Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 642 ｜ DEBATE： Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory？｜ Guest： Dr. Scott Coley

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:05.760 Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. 0.51

00:00:18.140 I was kind of laughing during that opening, but that's because that was my second take

00:00:22.620 of the opening. As many times as I have done a Good Ranchers ad, as many times as I've opened

00:00:28.560 the show saying this episode is brought to you by Good Ranchers, I somehow messed it up. I like

00:00:33.680 messed up the link and said goodranchers.allie. And the reason is because I can see myself in this

00:00:38.980 monitor in front of me and I had a hair sticking out and so I was trying to multitask. It didn't

00:00:42.940 work. So I had to start over and I was still kind of laughing about that. Anywho, I hope that you

00:00:47.700 guys are having a great day and a great week. We've got a great episode for you today. I am talking to

00:00:53.820 Professor Scott Coley. At the end of this episode, we've got some things to talk about first,

00:00:59.880 but he is a professor of philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. And he is currently working

00:01:08.360 on a book about the ideology of what he calls the religious right. It's titled Ministers of

00:01:13.080 Propaganda, Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right. So you can probably deduce

00:01:19.800 by the title of the book that he is working on that we do not agree. The reason that I'm talking

00:01:26.160 to him is because we had a disagreement all the way back at the beginning of April when I did a

00:01:31.060 satirical video slash satirical thread about anti-grooming and how it's not enough to be

00:01:39.380 not a groomer. You have to be actively anti-grooming. And I kind of made this satirical

00:01:45.320 comparison between what is spouted by the left about anti-racism and systemic racism, which of

00:01:53.220 course I've talked about my disagreements with that entire concept and narrative at length on

00:01:58.980 this podcast. But comparing it to what we are talking about on the right about this problem of

00:02:06.160 pervasive ideological gender grooming that is going on, particularly in our public education system,

00:02:13.920 well-documented. Not only if you listen to this show, if you listen to really any conservative

00:02:18.840 show. Also, if you follow Barry Weiss or Abigail Schreier or Lips of TikTok, I mean, you're seeing

00:02:26.200 this kind of stuff come out all of the time. Unfortunately, these parents going to school

00:02:31.320 boards and reading the curriculum and the books that are being presented to their elementary and 0.99

00:02:37.620 middle schoolers about not just transitioning gender, but also things like anal sex and oral sex and 0.99

00:02:42.980 I mean, just awful, awful stuff without the knowledge and the consent of the parents. And so, 0.99

00:02:48.980 of course, this is a real problem. However, Professor Scott Coley, he did a tweet thread and he

00:02:54.040 criticized people who are kind of making this satirical comparison between critical race theory

00:02:59.740 or being anti-racist and anti-groomer. And one of the things he said that I really took issue with

00:03:04.940 is he said, firstly, the whole grooming conspiracy that's being advanced by the political right in

00:03:09.840 cooperation with the religious right. I'm sure that I fall into those categories, according to him,

00:03:14.900 is an appropriation of an anti-Semitic trope that Christ followers should have nothing to do with.

00:03:20.180 It's not fodder for an insipid metaphor. So I obviously have a problem with that point that's

00:03:29.020 being made. And that is what I am going to discuss with him today. I'm very thankful that as someone who

00:03:34.760 disagrees with me, he was willing to take the time to come on my show. He's also been very flexible,

00:03:42.000 very adaptable because we've had to reschedule quite a few times since May. And so I really

00:03:47.460 appreciate that. I appreciate the calm and the collected conversation that we have, but we do

00:03:52.620 disagree. And so tune in for that debate discussion at the end of that, at the end of this. It's a good

00:04:01.460 one. Before we get into that conversation, I do want to talk about some of the things that we're

00:04:07.920 seeing in public schools. But first, I want to react to a hearing that was conducted yesterday

00:04:14.460 in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The hearing was titled Post-Roe America, The Legal Consequences

00:04:20.400 of the Dobbs Decision. So different committees in both the House and the Senate will host these kinds

00:04:27.660 of hearings. And both Republicans and Democrats will call their witnesses to kind of contend for

00:04:33.520 their side. And then the representatives or the senators will ask the witnesses, both their witnesses

00:04:40.520 and the other side's witnesses, different questions to, it's typically kind of to try, not really to try

00:04:48.460 to trap them, but really the point that the senators and representatives have in questioning the other

00:04:53.360 side's witnesses are typically to like make their own point. I've been a part of one of these

00:04:57.340 hearings in 2019 about abortion in the House of Representatives. So I kind of know how these

00:05:03.340 go. And Senator Hawley used this opportunity, I think in a very productive way, to question one of

00:05:12.580 the witnesses that was brought on by the Democrats. Her name is Kiera M. Bridges. She's a professor of law

00:05:17.960 at the UC Berkeley School of Law to ask her, why is she using this strange phrase, people with the

00:05:26.900 capacity for pregnancy? And her response to this and then his subsequent response, it's just stunning.

00:05:34.420 And it shows us exactly the crazy place that we are as a country. And I'll react to that.

00:05:39.480 All right. Let me play you this exchange between Senator Josh Hawley, Republican from Missouri,

00:05:56.280 and this UC Berkeley School of Law professor.

00:06:01.480 Professor Bridges, you said several times, you've used a phrase, I want to make sure I understand what

00:06:06.300 you mean by it. You've referred to people with a capacity for pregnancy. Would that be women?

00:06:14.520 Many women, cis women, have the capacity for pregnancy. Many cis women do not have the capacity

00:06:19.180 for pregnancy. There are also trans men who are capable of pregnancy, as well as non-binary people

00:06:24.260 who are capable of pregnancy.

00:06:25.540 So this isn't really a women's rights issue. 0.99

00:06:28.360 We can recognize that this impacts women while also recognizing that it impacts other groups.

00:06:33.160 Those things are not mutually exclusive, Senator Hawley.

00:06:35.860 Oh, so your view is, is that the core of this, this right then is about what?

00:06:41.880 So, um, I want to recognize that your line of questioning, um, is transphobic, um, and it opens

00:06:48.240 up trans people to violence by not recognizing that. 0.96

00:06:50.860 Wow. You're saying that I'm opening up people to violence by asking whether or not women are

00:06:54.700 the folks who can have pregnancies?

00:06:56.100 So I'm one, I want to note that one out of five transgender, uh, persons have attempted 1.00

00:07:02.300 suicide. So I think it's important for-

00:07:04.100 Because of my line of questioning?

00:07:05.320 Because-

00:07:05.700 So we can't talk about it?

00:07:06.820 Because denying that trans people exist and pretending not to know that they exist-

00:07:11.800 I'm denying that trans people exist by asking you if you're talking about women having pregnancies. 1.00

00:07:16.820 Do you believe that, uh, men can get pregnant?

00:07:19.940 No, I don't think-

00:07:20.900 So you're denying that trans people exist?

00:07:22.580 And that leads to violence? Is this how you run your classroom? Are students allowed to

00:07:26.420 question you or are they also treated like this where you're told that they're opening up people

00:07:30.980 to violence by questioning-

00:07:31.860 Oh, we have a good time in my class. You should join.

00:07:34.020 I bet.

00:07:34.420 You might learn a lot.

00:07:35.220 Wow. I would learn a lot. I've learned a lot just in this exchange.

00:07:38.580 I know. Absolutely.

00:07:39.220 Extraordinary.

00:07:39.940 Yep.

00:07:41.140 Oh my gosh. She has the exact attitude that progressive activists and politicians love. 0.96

00:07:46.740 Just like you can just see it in her eyes, how angry she is and how just like sarcastic and

00:07:52.660 entitled she truly seems to be. And so obviously this is ridiculous for a number of reasons. 0.96

00:07:58.740 I don't have to tell my, I don't have to tell my audience why this is ridiculous, but I mean, 0.90

00:08:05.140 I guess I will. The fact that we have a law professor at UC Berkeley. Now UC Berkeley is

00:08:10.820 extremely far left. I spoke there back in 2019. No, 2018. Fall of 2018. Craziest speaking experience

00:08:20.580 I've ever had. I've spoken at a lot of places. Some were hostile than others. Most, most places

00:08:25.860 though, I will say whether they have progressive or conservative students have been pretty polite

00:08:30.420 and they've asked questions and disagreed and that's been fine. That was not the case at UC Berkeley.

00:08:34.180 I know this is just an aside, but as I was speaking, I actually thought that I was giving

00:08:39.460 a very like middle of the road, um, uh, presentation. I was asked by this professor to come in and talk

00:08:46.660 about like the differences between the right and the left and just describing from my perspective,

00:08:50.660 the different priorities of the Republican Democrat party. I actually thought that I was being very fair.

00:08:55.220 And as I was talking, I was getting screamed at by these students. It's like they had never heard

00:09:01.380 someone to the right of Bernie Sanders. This was also during the whole Kavanaugh debacle.

00:09:05.620 And when I was asked like why I would support like Kavanaugh or how I could support like someone

00:09:11.620 like him being a Supreme Court justice. And I said something along the lines of, we have no idea if

00:09:16.500 Christine Blasey Ford is telling you the truth. I mean, they lost it. One of like the greatest moments

00:09:21.860 was this girl was screaming like a banshee and she stood up and she was like, yeah, I have a question.

00:09:26.580 And she just went on and on and on and on and on and on. And I just paused and I looked at her. I

00:09:31.060 said, do you have a question? And she, uh, uh, uh, and she just flustered and she sat down. And then

00:09:37.460 the professor got onto her and was like, you have to have a question. You can't just like want to hear

00:09:42.260 yourself talk. My husband was also in the audience and he still has a picture of like his heart rate

00:09:46.740 monitor on his watch that he was wearing at the time. It was like, I mean, his heart was beating

00:09:51.620 like a hundred beats per minute. It was very stressful. So anyway, I'm not surprised at all

00:09:56.180 that someone like this, who is this detached from reality is teaching at UC Berkeley. But think about

00:10:03.860 like all of the hundreds of students that are under her tutelage who are now going to be carrying on

00:10:10.100 these ideas. I think that Senator Hawley made a really good point when he said, oh, is this how you

00:10:15.460 treat your classroom? That if someone is questioning anything that they are perpetuating violence,

00:10:21.540 of course, that's probably, that's how she conducts her classroom. And that is of course,

00:10:25.460 how progressivism thinks. If you go outside of what they assert is true, no matter how absurd it is,

00:10:31.780 like the idea that men can get pregnant or that there is even such a thing as so-called trans men,

00:10:37.040 then, uh, you are causing violence. That's how they manipulate you. That's how they extort you,

00:10:42.680 that you are not even allowed to suggest that maybe two plus two always makes four, uh, without

00:10:49.600 threatening the, uh, safety and the survival of the number five. I mean, that's how ridiculous it is. 0.87

00:10:57.320 And that's of course what she's doing. And it, it's scary that this kind of ideology is so pervasive 0.96

00:11:03.320 in academia in the United States, and it's making its way into the law. We've already seen the

00:11:10.200 manifestations of that, of course, especially when we talk about, for example, like men being able to

00:11:16.400 infiltrate women's prisons just by identifying as a woman and then raping and assaulting the actual 1.00

00:11:22.140 women who are in women's prisons. That is where this kind of line of thinking goes, especially when 1.00

00:11:28.100 it comes to the law. And it should be no surprise, as Christopher Rufo also uncovered, uh, that this

00:11:34.460 person has, uh, written work about the legitimacy of critical race theory, which also is extremely

00:11:42.680 consequential and disturbing when you're thinking about the rule of law. Like if you've read

00:11:48.020 introduction to a critical race theory or critical race theory introduction by Richard Delgado, you

00:11:54.620 will see what the consequences are of the ideas of critical race theory, characterizing our law and

00:12:03.420 our justice system. You're talking about a form of so-called reverse, uh, discrimination against

00:12:09.840 people who are not seen as marginalized, which is not actually justice because it's not impartial in

00:12:15.600 order to try to create, um, equal outcomes. It always leads to a new form of oppression, as Thomas

00:12:23.500 Sowell has talked about many times. Anyway, this person is very dangerous. This person has such an

00:12:29.020 attitude, which is why all the Democrats are applauding her and, um, think that she is great. And of course,

00:12:36.400 you are not allowed to even question what she says is the new definition of reality without being

00:12:41.660 someone who is perpetuating violence. Look, you're going to be bullied in this exact same way. You

00:12:47.280 are going to, um, be accused of promoting all kinds of terrible things against people who identify as

00:12:55.100 the opposite gender of what they are by simply speaking truth. You have to speak truth anyway, 1.00

00:12:59.360 two and two will always be four. It's not just about what is physically true, what is scientifically true.

00:13:04.080 It is also about the implications and the manifestations, um, of this kind of ideology

00:13:10.660 when it comes to fairness and privacy and rights and protection of women and girls. Men will never

00:13:18.260 be able to become women. Women will never be able to become men. You can change your pronouns. You can

00:13:23.560 get surgery. Um, you can declare and identify as whatever you want to that will not change physical

00:13:29.680 reality and physical reality really matters. And it should certainly be reflected in the law.

00:13:35.100 Good for Senator Hawley for bringing this up and, um, highlighting this. And then we've also got this

00:13:41.280 crazy exchange, uh, between Senator Cornyn and this witness. Here's that.

00:13:48.680 Do you think a baby that is delivered alive has value?

00:13:54.640 Yes. Do you think that a, um, a baby that is not yet born has value? I believe that a person with a

00:14:06.780 capacity for pregnancy has value. They have intelligence. They have agency. They have

00:14:11.300 I'm talking about the baby and I'm talking about the person with the capacity. And I'm, you're not

00:14:14.660 answering the question. I'm asking. I'm answering a more interesting question to me. You think that a baby

00:14:19.820 that has not yet born, let's say the day before this mother delivers, do you think that baby has

00:14:26.580 value? I think that the person with the capacity for pregnancy has value and they have the, they

00:14:31.000 should have the ability to control what happens to their lives. So the answer, so the answer is no,

00:14:35.580 the answer is no. I mean, we can just, we can disregard the person with the capacity for pregnancy.

00:14:39.840 Like, oh my gosh, that kind of newspeak is so ridiculous. Like we can't even just say the word 0.94

00:14:45.400 that we all know is the only word to describe what a person with the capacity for pregnancy

00:14:49.720 is. We have to use like five words to convey one idea that it has been known in all cultures

00:14:54.400 throughout all of human history, because we are stupid as a society. Our smartest and most 1.00

00:14:59.540 credentialed people are the dumbest people in society. We live in a cakeistocracy. If you don't 0.99

00:15:03.620 know what that is, look it up. So she doesn't believe that the human being inside the womb has value,

00:15:09.080 even if it's at 40 weeks of pregnancy, because she's saying, okay, well the woman, the woman is

00:15:15.600 the person that has value. What she is obviously implying in the interesting question that she is

00:15:22.180 answering is that she believes that abortion should be allowed through all nine months of

00:15:26.620 pregnancy for any reason, because the woman who is pregnant wants to, because her value, I guess, 0.99

00:15:32.360 for some reason that she doesn't ever actually logically or philosophically explain has more value

00:15:38.040 than the baby inside the womb. Why? Because of location? Like because of size? Why? Because it's

00:15:43.340 attached by an umbilical cord? Those are all very arbitrary reasons to say that it is okay to kill a 0.98

00:15:49.320 child. And it's a very arbitrary reason to say that that child doesn't have as much value as the grown

00:15:54.400 adult. Does a toddler not as have as much value or as much of a right to live as a teenager? If not,

00:16:02.460 if you think that's ridiculous, then why is it that the mother has more value and more of a right to 0.93

00:16:10.700 kill her child than the child has to live? It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. And again, 0.94

00:16:16.700 these are the people who are influencing the next generation of lawyers and judges. I mean,

00:16:22.280 we are in serious trouble unless the pendulum swings in the other direction. So I just wanted to

00:16:30.840 respond to that. Also, if you haven't listened, speaking of abortion, if you haven't listened to

00:16:34.260 yesterday's episode where I break down Emmanuel Acho's recent uncomfortable conversation about

00:16:41.280 abortion in which he doesn't represent the pro-life side at all and in which Christianity is grossly

00:16:46.760 misrepresented, definitely go listen to yesterday's episode. All right. Now switching gears into the

00:16:56.020 conversation that we are having today, I do want to play a couple clips that are going to lead us

00:17:05.820 into this conversation about what's going on in public education. All right. So speaking of the

00:17:20.060 craziness and the absurdity and the destructive nature of gender ideology, let's look at some of 0.93

00:17:27.720 the things that are happening in our schools. And if you have listened to me for any amount of time,

00:17:33.900 you know how pervasive this problem is of teachers of elementary and middle schoolers talking about

00:17:39.700 switching your gender, talking about transitioning without the knowledge of the consent of the parents.

00:17:44.440 And as I will talk about with Dr. Scott Coley, the consequence of that very often is self-harm and

00:17:51.120 suicide by these kids who have been separated from their parents for the purpose of transitioning,

00:17:56.260 for the purpose of what I call gender grooming. But there is also an explicitly sexual part of this

00:18:02.480 that these young students are being presented either directly in curriculum or in the library with these

00:18:09.700 explicit books about different types of sex that young kids should not be learning about, especially

00:18:16.060 outside of the supervision and the knowledge of their parents, the people who care about them most.

00:18:24.000 And some parents who are really concerned about this have been going to school boards for the past

00:18:27.900 couple of years and have been confronting the school board about the kinds of books that are being

00:18:32.420 read to their students or made available to their students in the library. So here is one parent

00:18:37.520 sounding the alarm about this at a school board meeting.

00:19:07.520 So that is that is one of many examples. Very often, these school boards will cut off the parent

00:19:33.120 who is trying to who is trying to like read the stuff that their kids are learning. And the school

00:19:39.460 board will say, well, this is inappropriate for public consumption, but it's okay for the private

00:19:44.760 consumption of kids without the supervision or consent of their parents. I mean, it's really it's

00:19:50.960 really scary. It's really sad what's happening. And no matter what people say, this is happening.

00:19:54.700 And we're going to debate discuss that with this professor, Dr. Scott Coley right now.

00:20:03.120 Dr. Coley, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. We have very different perspectives on

00:20:16.480 all sorts of things. We're going to focus on one thing in particular today, and that is this concept

00:20:21.260 of grooming in schools that conservatives have been talking about a lot and your take on that. But

00:20:27.260 before we get into it, can you just tell people who you are and what you do?

00:20:30.260 So my name is Scott Coley. I teach philosophy, mainly history of philosophy, logic, social and

00:20:37.520 political ethics. And so my work deals, at the moment, I'm working on a book about ideology and

00:20:48.100 propaganda on the religious right.

00:20:50.260 Do you identify as a progressive? Is that how you would describe your political views?

00:20:58.060 I think, sure. Politically progressive, theologically conservative.

00:21:02.920 So the reason that we interacted first on Twitter, I think it was the first time that we interacted.

00:21:07.840 It was a couple months ago. Let's see, it was April. And you did a thread about something that

00:21:13.360 was happening on the right, something that I did. And that was like a satirical comparison between

00:21:17.480 critical race theory and critical grooming theory. Of course, my satirical point that I was making is

00:21:24.920 that you can't just be not a groomer. You have to be anti-grooming. And it's part of this pervasive

00:21:31.280 system that is basically inescapable. And you took issue with that in a very well-articulated thread.

00:21:38.540 And one point that you make was that the whole grooming conspiracy, you said, that's being

00:21:43.660 advanced by the political right in cooperation with the religious right is an appropriation of

00:21:48.520 an anti-Semitic trope that Christ followers should have nothing to do with. And of course, I disagreed

00:21:54.640 with that. And you said that I was bad at reading. So if you could better explain, since I seem to

00:21:59.760 misunderstand what you meant, if you could better explain what you mean by that.

00:22:03.000 Sure. So to be clear, you and actually, I saw the thread from a thread from someone else. I don't

00:22:11.140 think I was aware of your thread until we interacted. But to be clear, I'm not accusing you of anti-Semitism

00:22:21.740 per se, right? But this notion that the public school system has been turned into or turned over to

00:22:32.520 uh, some sort of pedophile ring or something like this, um, is part of a, uh, broader dialectic,

00:22:43.980 right? Wherein there are, so, right. So who's supposed to be responsible for the whole,

00:22:49.540 let's just walk through it, right? Who's supposed to be responsible for the

00:22:52.220 sort of grooming thing, right? Who's allowing this to happen?

00:22:57.400 Are you asking me or is this a rhetorical question that you're...

00:22:59.920 No, no, no. I'm asking you, like, who's responsible?

00:23:02.540 Well, I don't know that I would literally say that it is a systemic grooming problem. My point

00:23:07.940 would be that either ideological or, in some instances, sexual grooming is happening, um,

00:23:14.580 on a basis that is not highlighted enough in the education system, especially when it comes to

00:23:21.700 gender ideology. So if your point that you're about to make or try to, the parallel that you're making

00:23:27.980 is that I believe it's some, like, secret cabal of Jewish people at the top of public education 0.96

00:23:33.160 that is, like, pushing this grooming. That's certainly not what I believe. I can't speak for

00:23:37.160 everyone. Um, but I, I understand that you're trying to say that it's basically like this QAnon

00:23:42.780 conspiracy theory in which they think that there is this cabal of elites that's running a pedophile

00:23:46.780 ring and that Donald Trump is going to, like, come in and save the day. So you think that's basically

00:23:51.120 what people who are complaining about grooming a public education system are doing?

00:23:54.960 Well, I'm, I'm aware of quite a few people who say that there's basically, uh, how do they

00:24:01.180 characterize it as a handshake agreement between, um, this, you know, group of people who are abusing

00:24:08.900 children and, uh, sort of elites, right? That's the key word. You just use the word elite,

00:24:13.740 right? And that, that word elite is in quotes or, you know, triple parentheses or whatever.

00:24:18.840 And somehow it always leads back to George Soros or something like that, right? You're aware that

00:24:22.780 this, that this dynamic, uh, well, I think, yeah. So I think that probably just as there are like

00:24:29.320 things on the left that I don't completely understand and that I conflate because I'm

00:24:33.180 coming from a more antagonistic perspective of progressivism. I do think it's easy to conflate

00:24:38.940 like real complaints about George Soros and how he has funding, for example, progressive DAs,

00:24:43.720 which conservatives would disagree with. And some of the organizations that he has funded in the

00:24:48.260 policies that he has kind of advocated for in the United States. And then this group of truly like

00:24:54.400 white supremacist, racist people who think, and I've seen them too. I'm not denying that they exist. 0.89

00:24:59.860 And maybe they identify as the right of people who think that, you know, Jews are controlling the

00:25:04.760 world and that they're controlling our entertainment, whatever it is. Um, I, I definitely think it's wrong

00:25:12.060 to conflate people who say, Oh, George Soros is behind a lot of bad stuff in the United States.

00:25:16.360 And people who think that like Jews are ruining the world. And I definitely think it's wrong to

00:25:22.160 conflate the parents who are worried about a lot of the grooming type curriculum in public schools.

00:25:27.220 And then these like antisemitic QAnon conspiracy peddlers. And that's what it seems like you're

00:25:32.600 doing. Okay. So the way that, uh, sort of conspiracy theory, theory ecosystems operate, um,

00:25:41.260 it's, uh, so I want to make two points. The first is that it can be, um, contribute to the toxicity of,

00:25:52.640 um, ecosystems in which conspiracy theories thrive, uh, for people who don't necessarily endorse

00:26:01.140 sort of, uh, you know, the whole antisemitic global elite sort of narrative to say like,

00:26:08.780 well, I'm just asking some questions here. Right. Um, uh, but second point and relatedly,

00:26:15.100 um, you say that, that, you know, parents, uh, and other people have concerns about grooming type

00:26:23.440 behavior in, um, public schools and public school curriculum. Um, I wonder if you could say a little

00:26:29.900 bit more about that because, um, you said a moment ago that you're not actually alleging some kind of

00:26:34.100 systemic sort of thing. And that's kind of the linchpin that connects it, that connects the claim

00:26:39.100 to the conspiracy theory that, right. Is that there's this huge conspiracy. So if you don't

00:26:43.360 actually think that's going on, right. And the real concern is that, uh, there are elements of

00:26:48.480 the curriculum and say sex education or, uh, yeah, what have you, right. That are contributing to say,

00:26:55.040 you know, grooming behavior. I wonder if you could say a little bit more about what you mean by that.

00:26:58.660 Yes. So I think that there's a difference between prevalence and system or something that is

00:27:03.780 prevalent and something that is systemic. If I am defining systemic correctly, it's everywhere. It's

00:27:10.520 within the system, it's within the institutions. And I do think that there are, in, in my opinion,

00:27:15.500 from my perspective, like I think that teachers unions in general are toxic. And I do think that a lot of

00:27:21.240 the organizations that push the curriculum that I would see as destructive, um, that, I mean,

00:27:27.380 that is part of, I guess the system and the institution. But when I think about systemic,

00:27:30.960 I think about it's everywhere. It's in the foundation, it's inescapable. And I'm not

00:27:35.960 sure that that is true of the public education system, but do I think it's pervasive or do I

00:27:40.320 think it's prevalent? I do. And example after example has demonstrated that to me over the past

00:27:45.740 year and really has changed my perspective on like the health of our public education system

00:27:51.660 when it comes to what is being taught. And so I can kind of give some examples, um, about that.

00:27:58.360 There is, there's this terrible lawsuit that is occurring in California right now, and it is a

00:28:05.200 mother versus speckles union. She is actually suing the middle school in California because her daughter

00:28:12.120 was recruited, uh, to join the equality club in sixth grade and told she may be transgender and

00:28:18.860 bisexual. The teachers encouraged Jessica Conan's daughter to change her name to a boy's name as an

00:28:24.060 expression of her new identity and specifically instructed her not to tell her mother about her

00:28:28.620 new identity. And then a part of this lawsuit actually alleges that there is a parental secrecy

00:28:34.340 policy at the school in which the kids are instructed, Hey, you can transition at school.

00:28:39.500 You can identify as something else at school, and we will not tell your parents. There's also a

00:28:43.960 Florida lawsuit. The parents of a Florida elementary school student are suing their daughter's

00:28:48.040 school district after their child attempted to commit suicide following the school's efforts

00:28:51.800 to orchestrate her secret transition to a male gender identity. There was this horrible, I'm sure 0.65

00:28:56.920 you would agree, a tragic story of this immigrant, Yalie Martinez. She was told by her middle school and

00:29:02.940 then high school that, Hey, maybe because you like boy stuff, you should transition to the opposite sex. 0.98

00:29:07.960 Her mother had no idea that that was something that was happening. She wasn't able to give her the 0.97

00:29:13.200 support, provide the support that she needed. The school actually took the teenager out of her 0.80

00:29:17.800 home saying, Hey, this mother is not being supportive of this gender transition. This child

00:29:22.580 bounced around to different group homes and ended up throwing herself on the train tracks and committing

00:29:28.360 suicide. And so these are just a few examples. Transition Closet has also been funded just recently

00:29:34.540 in Columbia, Missouri. These are just a few examples. I could go through example after example,

00:29:39.480 all of this kind of behavior by schools to draw or to drive a wedge between parents and their children.

00:29:47.260 And I'm sure you have a different perspective on this, but if that is not a form of grooming,

00:29:52.500 I don't know what is. I mean, that is an aspect of what predators do. You drive a wedge between the

00:29:59.880 person who is supposed to protect the child and the child. And so that's what I'm seeing. That's what

00:30:05.380 breaks my heart. That's what scares me. I certainly don't connect it to some like grand anti-Semitic

00:30:10.060 conspiracy theory. That's just something I'm seeing as a mom, as a person that really worries

00:30:15.380 me for kids. Does that not concern you? Uh, sure. So, so is the allegation that I'll stipulate to all

00:30:22.880 the, all the facts under litigation, um, uh, is the allegation that the teachers were then preparing

00:30:31.020 to sexually assault the students? No. And I don't think that that is what is being claimed by a lot

00:30:37.460 of people. Of course there are instances, right? I mean, it's no. And I think that actually conservatives

00:30:42.840 have been very specific. Now, maybe if you're not completely privy to like the conversations that

00:30:47.900 conservatives are having among each amongst each other, which I understand. Well, I think that there

00:30:53.420 is a form of ideological grooming or we believe grooming or pressuring into believing. Yes, but I

00:31:03.260 think that we have been pretty specific. I believe that we have been pretty specific about what exactly

00:31:09.580 we mean by grooming. Ideological grooming. Of course, I do believe that there is sexual grooming in every

00:31:15.960 institution. You've brought it up. This has happened in the church as well. And so I'm not minimizing

00:31:20.940 like any of the dangers or the reality of that happening in other places beyond, um, the public

00:31:26.760 education system. So I don't think in every instance, this is a situation where teachers are

00:31:32.560 looking to sexually assault the students. Of course that happens, but do I think it is a form of grooming

00:31:37.760 children into a certain kind of behavior, into a certain kind of lifestyle without the consent and

00:31:42.900 the knowledge of their parents in order to conform the kids into their own image or their own ideology

00:31:47.900 or whatever it is, or whether they think they're being inclusive and great. It is a form of grooming

00:31:52.880 a child into a certain lifestyle that is, in my opinion, extremely destructive.

00:31:59.460 Right. So the, so this, uh, actually has some resonances with this sort of, um, conspiracy type

00:32:08.400 approach to these issues. Right. And the idea is that, um, the whole reason why elites have, uh, reached this

00:32:16.780 bargain with people who are, I guess, ideologically grooming children is that, uh, they want to

00:32:22.800 destabilize society by alienating children from their parents, uh, making way for, uh, you know, 0.83

00:32:29.760 the construction of a new social order. So I'm not really even sure how we can say that that's

00:32:36.280 a conspiracy. Like, I mean, what do you make of these like transition closets and these instances

00:32:41.980 of, of schools and teachers and guidance counselors saying, Hey, yeah, we're going to transition you.

00:32:49.000 We're going to pull you from your home because you're 13 years old and your parent says, Oh, no,

00:32:53.700 my daughter's not a son. And I'm not going to go along with this, even though I love them very much.

00:32:58.200 Like, I mean, what, what do you think the purpose is behind that?

00:33:03.600 There. Uh, Oh, I can, I mean, I can't, I don't know what the, the motive is. I can't,

00:33:08.480 I can't speak to that, but do I think that, um, it's connected to a Marxist strategy for

00:33:14.180 destabilizing society in general? Well, I don't think that that is probably the intent of a lot

00:33:20.580 of people, but I, that is also always the natural progressive, uh, progression of, of Marxism and

00:33:27.320 progressivism in general. It's destabilizing because it seeks to tear down and it really never

00:33:32.120 has anything cohesive or coherent to replace it with, of course, from my perspective.

00:33:36.700 Well, there are ideas, but they don't, they never seem to work out.

00:33:40.360 Yes. Yeah, exactly. If you're looking to talk with a Marxist, you pick the wrong person.

00:33:47.960 No, I'm not, I, I'm not trying to like accuse you of being a Marxist. I guess all I'm saying

00:33:55.900 is that, okay, these are like very legitimate concerns. And maybe you can, maybe you don't

00:34:00.700 like the word grooming because you think, okay, there's always sexual connotations with that.

00:34:04.380 And that is like the wrong accusation. And I can, I can understand, I can understand that,

00:34:09.120 uh, for sure. And maybe I should just like be more careful about choosing the word, but

00:34:12.780 in, I mean, it is, it is a form. If you're talking to kindergartners, which is something that's

00:34:18.560 happened. Like if you were introducing a book like genderqueer to elementary and to middle school

00:34:23.720 students, and we're talking about like graphic images of like oral sex and talking about like 0.92

00:34:29.240 switching your gender at that young of an age, when a child's mind is so malleable, like when 0.76

00:34:34.260 you know they can be shaped, introducing that kind of sexual graphic content and that kind

00:34:40.500 of confusion that has to do with their genitals. It does. Like if you're talking to students 0.80

00:34:45.060 about that without the consent and the knowledge of the parent, even if your intent is not to

00:34:49.220 sexually assault them, like, what do you call that other than grooming? Like, do you think

00:34:52.040 that's just good inclusive teaching? I absolutely do not endorse showing graphic sexual images

00:35:01.260 to kindergartners. So you would think it's a problem that in many middle schools and elementary

00:35:05.800 schools across the country, that book genderqueer is on the shelves for kids to read.

00:35:12.480 Yeah, I guess I would, I wonder how prevalent that is. Um, I don't, I don't doubt that it,

00:35:17.300 I don't doubt that it's happened. I'm not, I'm not. Do you think that it's, do you think

00:35:21.400 it's okay for teachers to talk to elementary school students about like switching their

00:35:25.980 gender and changing their pronouns without their parents' knowledge and consent?

00:35:29.720 And so then I guess you're saying this is happening in the context of a classroom, like

00:35:34.440 the teacher is just talking to all the whole class, like, oh, by the way, um, yeah, teaching

00:35:39.240 them about like so-called gender inclusion and that it's possible to be born a girl and assign

00:35:44.720 sex at birth and then change your gender later on. Do you think that's okay? 0.98

00:35:48.740 Like as a part of the curriculum to just present that information to like the program?

00:35:53.780 Do you think it's okay for a teacher to be talking about that to young students?

00:35:59.140 I guess context is always, like, does the, has the student approached the teacher and

00:36:04.560 with concerns about this and the teacher like brings in the guidance counselor?

00:36:10.260 Like all, I don't, I mean, I guess I don't know the hypothetical situations. I'm not sure if

00:36:14.000 you're probably not a fan of libs of TikTok, but the teachers that we see every single

00:36:18.580 day, like posting videos saying, oh, you know, today I, um, read a book about like, I am

00:36:25.240 jazz or I think, uh, it's one is called like Jackie, not Jack, these children's books that

00:36:32.280 are about, Hey, if you want to change your clothes and if you want to be a different gender,

00:36:36.480 I mean, I can't tell you that this is happening at every public school at every public school

00:36:40.780 district, but there are enough complaints leveled. There is enough video evidence of this happening

00:36:44.980 admissions by teachers happening on a daily basis that we know that it's happening across the

00:36:49.460 country at, uh, I think a pretty scary clip, um, from my perspective. And so I'm just curious,

00:36:57.440 like what you think about that? Like, do you still think that people who are complaining about

00:37:01.200 that being a form of grooming are like contributing to an antisemitic conspiracy theory?

00:37:07.580 Oh, right. Okay. So again, I'm not accusing you or anyone who's, uh, who any specific people

00:37:15.660 who were, who were put, you know, talking about this on Twitter on that particular day, a couple

00:37:19.480 months ago of, of, uh, themselves advancing, uh, antisemitism. Uh, but my, the point, right. So a

00:37:28.920 trope, right. I called it a trope for a reason. A trope is a kind of refrain, right? Um, it's a,

00:37:36.500 you know, musical term to have to do has to do with melody, right? There's a certain kind of

00:37:40.000 melody that it follows. Um, yeah. So do I think that parents, here's the essence of the question,

00:37:49.700 I think. Do I think that parents who complain about their first grader being read stories by a public

00:37:58.320 school teacher, uh, that suggests that they should consider changing their gender who complain are

00:38:05.060 therefore guilty of advancing antisemitism? No, I do not.

00:38:09.380 So then the people like me, commentators who are seeing, wow, this didn't just happen once or twice,

00:38:26.780 but this is happening over and over again. It seems, it seems like there's lots of parents

00:38:30.120 across the country, even if it's only hundreds, yes, percentage wise, that's small, but okay,

00:38:33.940 that's happening. Hundreds of parents at least are complaining about this kind of thing and those

00:38:38.180 kinds of books in the library. Okay. So you talk about that and you complain about that and you

00:38:44.060 say, Hey, this is a form of grooming that seems to be happening. These transition clauses, the

00:38:47.980 separation of parent and child, there's this terrible story. And I'm sure that you disagree

00:38:51.740 with this happening, but a 17 year old student, um, in Ohio at Hudson high school, he told his parent

00:38:58.760 that he was prompted by the teacher to write a sex scene that they wouldn't show their mom

00:39:04.740 and actually posted like a worksheet of that assignment. Um, I mean, that kind of thing,

00:39:11.200 unfortunately is happening. So people who complain about that are saying, Hey, this is happening more

00:39:16.280 than once. This is a problem. We should probably be against that. It just doesn't seem, I don't see

00:39:23.340 the connection, the real connection, the provable connection between that and the QAnon trope that

00:39:29.600 you say is being appropriated here. It just seems like you use that originally to like

00:39:34.600 de-legitimize and dismiss people's real concerns about this happening.

00:39:38.560 So, so remember that, remember the connection, right? So the connection is that there is an

00:39:42.540 agreement between people who are, uh, grooming sexually or ideologically grooming, uh, children,

00:39:52.440 right? And if ideologically, then the, um, the say indoctrination has to do with gender and sexuality,

00:40:02.560 right? Um, and that there's an agreement between the folks who are doing that in the public school

00:40:08.660 system and then elites who are allowing this to happen because they want to alienate children from

00:40:16.260 their parents, destabilize society in order to deconstruct the social order and reconstruct society.

00:40:24.320 I mean, presumably along communist lines with, you know, central economic planning and all that, uh,

00:40:30.040 and eventually, you know, lead to some kind of one world government or something like that, right? That

00:40:36.200 is the antisemitic bit. Now I understand that, uh, you didn't mean to imply all of that. Uh, and again,

00:40:45.340 I didn't see your, your thread until after we communicated. Yeah. I think that it's, I still

00:40:52.240 think it's like, it's such an unfair categorization. It would be the same thing as me saying, Hey,

00:40:57.140 you say systemic racism is real because of X, Y, Z. Well, critical race theory also says systemic

00:41:01.960 racism is real. Critical race theory is a subset of critical theory. Critical theory is a subset of

00:41:06.460 Marxist. You're a Marxist and you really do want to destabilize society because you believe in those

00:41:11.300 things that would be an unfair accusation of people who believe that systemic racism is real, right?

00:41:18.400 That would be unfair for me to say. But I don't think that's a fair analogy. And actually, I think

00:41:23.380 that like it's, that is actually much more logical and I have a much better case to make than the one

00:41:29.000 that you're making. So I'm not sure that's a fair analogy. Um, because I, I, I pointed out,

00:41:37.740 I believe that, um, the talk of, uh, quote unquote grooming, uh, is part of a conspiracy theory that's

00:41:50.220 documented, right? Uh, that plays on antisemitic tropes. I didn't say you're talking about children

00:41:57.960 being groomed in public schools. Therefore you are an antisemite. I didn't say that. And I wouldn't 0.92

00:42:02.400 say that. I was, uh, I want to say I was careful not to say that, but I, I didn't, I'm not sure

00:42:07.140 how much care was involved. I just, that that's just not a claim I make.

00:42:10.820 Okay. Well, I definitely, I don't want to seem like I'm putting words in your mouth or accusing

00:42:15.240 you of something that you didn't do because you're right. You said that it's an appropriation of an

00:42:19.160 antisemitic trope. You didn't say everyone who complains about this is an antisemite. So I don't

00:42:22.920 want it to seem like I'm implying that. I simply think that making that connection,

00:42:28.400 even making that connection is in a way implying that people who complained about it are at the

00:42:36.020 very least appropriating or contributing to are a part of even unknowingly some kind of grand

00:42:43.100 conspiracy theory that does, even if that's not the intent, the impact is to delegitimize, uh,

00:42:49.840 people's real concerns about this and kind of describe it as some kind of moral panic and

00:42:54.600 propaganda by the religious right. When unfortunately there's a lot of evidence

00:42:58.160 of this happening. Um, I'll give you, I'll give you the final word and then, um, let you tell people

00:43:04.520 where they can find you if they want to follow you. Okay. Um, so it, it sounds to me like, um,

00:43:13.160 what you're describing is concerns about a number of concerning incidents. Yeah. And, uh, it sounds to me

00:43:24.220 like you're not actually claiming that there is some kind of, uh, uh, conspiracy, uh, at work here.

00:43:35.620 And so I think that it is, I do think it is intentional. I think that the impact will be

00:43:41.980 the destabilization of society. And I don't think it's any question that the public education system

00:43:46.580 is run mostly by people who have a progressive ideology. That's been true for a very long time.

00:43:51.480 If you look at the, uh, political leanings of the teachers unions and where this curriculum is

00:43:55.840 coming from, like you're not seeing, Oh, there's like also, there's a huge push for like, uh, hard,

00:44:02.560 right, conservative, like curriculum, or there has been over the past 60 years, there's been some

00:44:07.080 like Christian nationalist takeover of like the public education system, but you can't see.

00:44:11.760 So there's an interesting book called the hijacking of history that you might be interested

00:44:15.040 to read. Um, there, uh, particularly, uh, school boards in Texas have very much been taken over by,

00:44:20.720 uh, the religious right. And this, and this, uh, as goes Texas, so goes many states because the public

00:44:26.760 school system in Texas is quite large, uh, and therefore has a lot of purchasing power.

00:44:30.520 That would be, that would be like, that would be quite the pendulum swing if, uh, public education

00:44:36.060 system swings to the right and swings to, uh, Christianity.

00:44:40.220 Well, I have, I have, I have students, I have college students sometimes who grew up in the

00:44:44.140 South as did I. Right. And so I, I had similar experiences who like they, they sincerely believe

00:44:50.940 that, uh, the civil war was about liberty on the side of the South. Yeah. They're, I mean,

00:44:58.500 propaganda and it's still in public school textbooks in the South. This is documented.

00:45:02.680 I, I, I hear people say that, and I am sure that there are incidents, unfortunately, of that happening.

00:45:08.180 I grew up in Texas. I went to a private Christian school, very conservative. And I learned everything

00:45:15.920 about the Holocaust, about the trail of tears, about slavery, about the civil war. And I'm not

00:45:20.860 saying, Oh, well, just because I experienced that, that means that no one's different experience is

00:45:26.280 legitimate. I'm not, I'm not saying that, but I hear those kinds of anecdotes all the time. And I'm

00:45:31.860 not saying that there's no misinformation that comes from the right or conservative school districts.

00:45:35.960 My argument, my contention is that the kind of ideological grooming that we are seeing in the

00:45:41.000 form of gender ideology from progressives is a lot more pervasive. And in my opinion,

00:45:45.920 like if we're going to weigh the two a lot more destructive, that's my point. You have a different

00:45:50.200 perspective. And I do really appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to me about it.

00:45:54.360 Hopefully when we have more time, maybe we can talk about, you have a book coming out,

00:45:58.940 I think. Right. And so maybe when the book comes out, you can come back on. And after I read it,

00:46:04.540 we can talk about the different points and where we agree and disagree.

00:46:08.600 That would be delightful. Thank you so much for inviting me on the show.

00:46:11.660 Thanks for coming on Dr. Coley.

00:46:15.800 All right. I hope that you guys enjoyed that, that you got a lot out of it. I do really appreciate,

00:46:21.780 as I said, him coming on and having the discussion with me. Hopefully we'll be able to

00:46:25.980 have him back and, and talk even further tomorrow. I will be talking to Steve Dace about this Hunter

00:46:32.760 Biden drama, which I really haven't talked about because it really makes me sad and it really

00:46:36.940 curses me out too, but it's actually, it's, it's important. It's important for us to know

00:46:41.960 why it matters to us, how it impacts us, how it impacts national security and how it fits into

00:46:47.300 everything that is going on in the geopolitical sphere. And so, and even theologically, what are the

00:46:52.680 theological implications of how we should think about like our leaders engaging in this kind of

00:46:58.180 behavior? Because it's not just Hunter Biden. It's also how Joe Biden is complicit and compromised in

00:47:03.340 all of this. And so we'll be discussing that with Steve Dace tomorrow. We'll also be covering some

00:47:09.240 other things as well. So make sure that you tune into that. If you love this podcast, as always,

00:47:13.600 please leave us a five-star review. That would mean a lot. We will see you guys back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 13, 2022

Ep 642 ｜ DEBATE： Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory？｜ Guest： Dr. Scott Coley

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - July 13, 2022

Ep 642 ｜ DEBATE： Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory？ ｜ Guest： Dr. Scott Coley

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Ep 642 ｜ DEBATE： Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory？｜ Guest： Dr. Scott Coley