Ep 642 ｜ DEBATE： Is Public School 'Grooming' a Conspiracy Theory？ ｜ Guest： Dr. Scott Coley
Episode Stats
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Summary
In this episode, I talk with philosophy professor Scott Coley about the ideology of what he calls the "Religious right" and how it relates to gender grooming in public schools. We also discuss a recent Supreme Court case regarding abortion and the Supreme Court's decision to strike down Roe v. Wade.
Transcript
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Hey guys, welcome to Relatable. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.
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Go to goodranchers.com slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie.
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I was kind of laughing during that opening, but that's because that was my second take
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of the opening. As many times as I have done a Good Ranchers ad, as many times as I've opened
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the show saying this episode is brought to you by Good Ranchers, I somehow messed it up. I like
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messed up the link and said goodranchers.allie. And the reason is because I can see myself in this
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monitor in front of me and I had a hair sticking out and so I was trying to multitask. It didn't
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work. So I had to start over and I was still kind of laughing about that. Anywho, I hope that you
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guys are having a great day and a great week. We've got a great episode for you today. I am talking to
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Professor Scott Coley. At the end of this episode, we've got some things to talk about first,
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but he is a professor of philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University. And he is currently working
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on a book about the ideology of what he calls the religious right. It's titled Ministers of
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Propaganda, Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right. So you can probably deduce
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by the title of the book that he is working on that we do not agree. The reason that I'm talking
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to him is because we had a disagreement all the way back at the beginning of April when I did a
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satirical video slash satirical thread about anti-grooming and how it's not enough to be
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not a groomer. You have to be actively anti-grooming. And I kind of made this satirical
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comparison between what is spouted by the left about anti-racism and systemic racism, which of
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course I've talked about my disagreements with that entire concept and narrative at length on
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this podcast. But comparing it to what we are talking about on the right about this problem of
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pervasive ideological gender grooming that is going on, particularly in our public education system,
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well-documented. Not only if you listen to this show, if you listen to really any conservative
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show. Also, if you follow Barry Weiss or Abigail Schreier or Lips of TikTok, I mean, you're seeing
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this kind of stuff come out all of the time. Unfortunately, these parents going to school
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boards and reading the curriculum and the books that are being presented to their elementary and
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middle schoolers about not just transitioning gender, but also things like anal sex and oral sex and
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I mean, just awful, awful stuff without the knowledge and the consent of the parents. And so,
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of course, this is a real problem. However, Professor Scott Coley, he did a tweet thread and he
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criticized people who are kind of making this satirical comparison between critical race theory
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or being anti-racist and anti-groomer. And one of the things he said that I really took issue with
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is he said, firstly, the whole grooming conspiracy that's being advanced by the political right in
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cooperation with the religious right. I'm sure that I fall into those categories, according to him,
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is an appropriation of an anti-Semitic trope that Christ followers should have nothing to do with.
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It's not fodder for an insipid metaphor. So I obviously have a problem with that point that's
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being made. And that is what I am going to discuss with him today. I'm very thankful that as someone who
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disagrees with me, he was willing to take the time to come on my show. He's also been very flexible,
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very adaptable because we've had to reschedule quite a few times since May. And so I really
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appreciate that. I appreciate the calm and the collected conversation that we have, but we do
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disagree. And so tune in for that debate discussion at the end of that, at the end of this. It's a good
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one. Before we get into that conversation, I do want to talk about some of the things that we're
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seeing in public schools. But first, I want to react to a hearing that was conducted yesterday
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in the Senate Judiciary Committee. The hearing was titled Post-Roe America, The Legal Consequences
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of the Dobbs Decision. So different committees in both the House and the Senate will host these kinds
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of hearings. And both Republicans and Democrats will call their witnesses to kind of contend for
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their side. And then the representatives or the senators will ask the witnesses, both their witnesses
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and the other side's witnesses, different questions to, it's typically kind of to try, not really to try
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to trap them, but really the point that the senators and representatives have in questioning the other
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side's witnesses are typically to like make their own point. I've been a part of one of these
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hearings in 2019 about abortion in the House of Representatives. So I kind of know how these
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go. And Senator Hawley used this opportunity, I think in a very productive way, to question one of
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the witnesses that was brought on by the Democrats. Her name is Kiera M. Bridges. She's a professor of law
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at the UC Berkeley School of Law to ask her, why is she using this strange phrase, people with the
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capacity for pregnancy? And her response to this and then his subsequent response, it's just stunning.
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And it shows us exactly the crazy place that we are as a country. And I'll react to that.
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All right. Let me play you this exchange between Senator Josh Hawley, Republican from Missouri,
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Professor Bridges, you said several times, you've used a phrase, I want to make sure I understand what
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you mean by it. You've referred to people with a capacity for pregnancy. Would that be women?
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Many women, cis women, have the capacity for pregnancy. Many cis women do not have the capacity
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for pregnancy. There are also trans men who are capable of pregnancy, as well as non-binary people
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We can recognize that this impacts women while also recognizing that it impacts other groups.
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Those things are not mutually exclusive, Senator Hawley.
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Oh, so your view is, is that the core of this, this right then is about what?
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So, um, I want to recognize that your line of questioning, um, is transphobic, um, and it opens
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up trans people to violence by not recognizing that.
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Wow. You're saying that I'm opening up people to violence by asking whether or not women are
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So I'm one, I want to note that one out of five transgender, uh, persons have attempted
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Because denying that trans people exist and pretending not to know that they exist-
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I'm denying that trans people exist by asking you if you're talking about women having pregnancies.
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And that leads to violence? Is this how you run your classroom? Are students allowed to
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question you or are they also treated like this where you're told that they're opening up people
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Oh, we have a good time in my class. You should join.
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Wow. I would learn a lot. I've learned a lot just in this exchange.
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Oh my gosh. She has the exact attitude that progressive activists and politicians love.
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Just like you can just see it in her eyes, how angry she is and how just like sarcastic and
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entitled she truly seems to be. And so obviously this is ridiculous for a number of reasons.
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I don't have to tell my, I don't have to tell my audience why this is ridiculous, but I mean,
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I guess I will. The fact that we have a law professor at UC Berkeley. Now UC Berkeley is
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extremely far left. I spoke there back in 2019. No, 2018. Fall of 2018. Craziest speaking experience
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I've ever had. I've spoken at a lot of places. Some were hostile than others. Most, most places
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though, I will say whether they have progressive or conservative students have been pretty polite
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and they've asked questions and disagreed and that's been fine. That was not the case at UC Berkeley.
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I know this is just an aside, but as I was speaking, I actually thought that I was giving
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a very like middle of the road, um, uh, presentation. I was asked by this professor to come in and talk
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about like the differences between the right and the left and just describing from my perspective,
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the different priorities of the Republican Democrat party. I actually thought that I was being very fair.
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And as I was talking, I was getting screamed at by these students. It's like they had never heard
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someone to the right of Bernie Sanders. This was also during the whole Kavanaugh debacle.
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And when I was asked like why I would support like Kavanaugh or how I could support like someone
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like him being a Supreme Court justice. And I said something along the lines of, we have no idea if
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Christine Blasey Ford is telling you the truth. I mean, they lost it. One of like the greatest moments
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was this girl was screaming like a banshee and she stood up and she was like, yeah, I have a question.
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And she just went on and on and on and on and on and on. And I just paused and I looked at her. I
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said, do you have a question? And she, uh, uh, uh, and she just flustered and she sat down. And then
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the professor got onto her and was like, you have to have a question. You can't just like want to hear
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yourself talk. My husband was also in the audience and he still has a picture of like his heart rate
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monitor on his watch that he was wearing at the time. It was like, I mean, his heart was beating
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like a hundred beats per minute. It was very stressful. So anyway, I'm not surprised at all
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that someone like this, who is this detached from reality is teaching at UC Berkeley. But think about
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like all of the hundreds of students that are under her tutelage who are now going to be carrying on
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these ideas. I think that Senator Hawley made a really good point when he said, oh, is this how you
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treat your classroom? That if someone is questioning anything that they are perpetuating violence,
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of course, that's probably, that's how she conducts her classroom. And that is of course,
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how progressivism thinks. If you go outside of what they assert is true, no matter how absurd it is,
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like the idea that men can get pregnant or that there is even such a thing as so-called trans men,
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then, uh, you are causing violence. That's how they manipulate you. That's how they extort you,
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that you are not even allowed to suggest that maybe two plus two always makes four, uh, without
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threatening the, uh, safety and the survival of the number five. I mean, that's how ridiculous it is.
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And that's of course what she's doing. And it, it's scary that this kind of ideology is so pervasive
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in academia in the United States, and it's making its way into the law. We've already seen the
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manifestations of that, of course, especially when we talk about, for example, like men being able to
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infiltrate women's prisons just by identifying as a woman and then raping and assaulting the actual
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women who are in women's prisons. That is where this kind of line of thinking goes, especially when
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it comes to the law. And it should be no surprise, as Christopher Rufo also uncovered, uh, that this
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person has, uh, written work about the legitimacy of critical race theory, which also is extremely
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consequential and disturbing when you're thinking about the rule of law. Like if you've read
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introduction to a critical race theory or critical race theory introduction by Richard Delgado, you
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will see what the consequences are of the ideas of critical race theory, characterizing our law and
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our justice system. You're talking about a form of so-called reverse, uh, discrimination against
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people who are not seen as marginalized, which is not actually justice because it's not impartial in
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order to try to create, um, equal outcomes. It always leads to a new form of oppression, as Thomas
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Sowell has talked about many times. Anyway, this person is very dangerous. This person has such an
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attitude, which is why all the Democrats are applauding her and, um, think that she is great. And of course,
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you are not allowed to even question what she says is the new definition of reality without being
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someone who is perpetuating violence. Look, you're going to be bullied in this exact same way. You
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are going to, um, be accused of promoting all kinds of terrible things against people who identify as
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the opposite gender of what they are by simply speaking truth. You have to speak truth anyway,
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two and two will always be four. It's not just about what is physically true, what is scientifically true.
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It is also about the implications and the manifestations, um, of this kind of ideology
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when it comes to fairness and privacy and rights and protection of women and girls. Men will never
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be able to become women. Women will never be able to become men. You can change your pronouns. You can
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get surgery. Um, you can declare and identify as whatever you want to that will not change physical
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reality and physical reality really matters. And it should certainly be reflected in the law.
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Good for Senator Hawley for bringing this up and, um, highlighting this. And then we've also got this
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crazy exchange, uh, between Senator Cornyn and this witness. Here's that.
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Do you think a baby that is delivered alive has value?
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Yes. Do you think that a, um, a baby that is not yet born has value? I believe that a person with a
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capacity for pregnancy has value. They have intelligence. They have agency. They have
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I'm talking about the baby and I'm talking about the person with the capacity. And I'm, you're not
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answering the question. I'm asking. I'm answering a more interesting question to me. You think that a baby
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that has not yet born, let's say the day before this mother delivers, do you think that baby has
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value? I think that the person with the capacity for pregnancy has value and they have the, they
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should have the ability to control what happens to their lives. So the answer, so the answer is no,
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the answer is no. I mean, we can just, we can disregard the person with the capacity for pregnancy.
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Like, oh my gosh, that kind of newspeak is so ridiculous. Like we can't even just say the word
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that we all know is the only word to describe what a person with the capacity for pregnancy
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is. We have to use like five words to convey one idea that it has been known in all cultures
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throughout all of human history, because we are stupid as a society. Our smartest and most
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credentialed people are the dumbest people in society. We live in a cakeistocracy. If you don't
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know what that is, look it up. So she doesn't believe that the human being inside the womb has value,
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even if it's at 40 weeks of pregnancy, because she's saying, okay, well the woman, the woman is
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the person that has value. What she is obviously implying in the interesting question that she is
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answering is that she believes that abortion should be allowed through all nine months of
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pregnancy for any reason, because the woman who is pregnant wants to, because her value, I guess,
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for some reason that she doesn't ever actually logically or philosophically explain has more value
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than the baby inside the womb. Why? Because of location? Like because of size? Why? Because it's
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attached by an umbilical cord? Those are all very arbitrary reasons to say that it is okay to kill a
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child. And it's a very arbitrary reason to say that that child doesn't have as much value as the grown
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adult. Does a toddler not as have as much value or as much of a right to live as a teenager? If not,
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if you think that's ridiculous, then why is it that the mother has more value and more of a right to
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kill her child than the child has to live? It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. And again,
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these are the people who are influencing the next generation of lawyers and judges. I mean,
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we are in serious trouble unless the pendulum swings in the other direction. So I just wanted to
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respond to that. Also, if you haven't listened, speaking of abortion, if you haven't listened to
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yesterday's episode where I break down Emmanuel Acho's recent uncomfortable conversation about
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abortion in which he doesn't represent the pro-life side at all and in which Christianity is grossly
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misrepresented, definitely go listen to yesterday's episode. All right. Now switching gears into the
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conversation that we are having today, I do want to play a couple clips that are going to lead us
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into this conversation about what's going on in public education. All right. So speaking of the
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craziness and the absurdity and the destructive nature of gender ideology, let's look at some of
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the things that are happening in our schools. And if you have listened to me for any amount of time,
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you know how pervasive this problem is of teachers of elementary and middle schoolers talking about
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switching your gender, talking about transitioning without the knowledge of the consent of the parents.
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And as I will talk about with Dr. Scott Coley, the consequence of that very often is self-harm and
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suicide by these kids who have been separated from their parents for the purpose of transitioning,
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for the purpose of what I call gender grooming. But there is also an explicitly sexual part of this
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that these young students are being presented either directly in curriculum or in the library with these
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explicit books about different types of sex that young kids should not be learning about, especially
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outside of the supervision and the knowledge of their parents, the people who care about them most.
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And some parents who are really concerned about this have been going to school boards for the past
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couple of years and have been confronting the school board about the kinds of books that are being
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read to their students or made available to their students in the library. So here is one parent
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sounding the alarm about this at a school board meeting.
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So that is that is one of many examples. Very often, these school boards will cut off the parent
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who is trying to who is trying to like read the stuff that their kids are learning. And the school
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board will say, well, this is inappropriate for public consumption, but it's okay for the private
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consumption of kids without the supervision or consent of their parents. I mean, it's really it's
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really scary. It's really sad what's happening. And no matter what people say, this is happening.
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And we're going to debate discuss that with this professor, Dr. Scott Coley right now.
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Dr. Coley, thank you so much for taking the time to join me. We have very different perspectives on
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all sorts of things. We're going to focus on one thing in particular today, and that is this concept
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of grooming in schools that conservatives have been talking about a lot and your take on that. But
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before we get into it, can you just tell people who you are and what you do?
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So my name is Scott Coley. I teach philosophy, mainly history of philosophy, logic, social and
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political ethics. And so my work deals, at the moment, I'm working on a book about ideology and
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Do you identify as a progressive? Is that how you would describe your political views?
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I think, sure. Politically progressive, theologically conservative.
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So the reason that we interacted first on Twitter, I think it was the first time that we interacted.
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It was a couple months ago. Let's see, it was April. And you did a thread about something that
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was happening on the right, something that I did. And that was like a satirical comparison between
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critical race theory and critical grooming theory. Of course, my satirical point that I was making is
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that you can't just be not a groomer. You have to be anti-grooming. And it's part of this pervasive
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system that is basically inescapable. And you took issue with that in a very well-articulated thread.
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And one point that you make was that the whole grooming conspiracy, you said, that's being
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advanced by the political right in cooperation with the religious right is an appropriation of
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an anti-Semitic trope that Christ followers should have nothing to do with. And of course, I disagreed
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with that. And you said that I was bad at reading. So if you could better explain, since I seem to
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misunderstand what you meant, if you could better explain what you mean by that.
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Sure. So to be clear, you and actually, I saw the thread from a thread from someone else. I don't
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think I was aware of your thread until we interacted. But to be clear, I'm not accusing you of anti-Semitism
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per se, right? But this notion that the public school system has been turned into or turned over to
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uh, some sort of pedophile ring or something like this, um, is part of a, uh, broader dialectic,
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right? Wherein there are, so, right. So who's supposed to be responsible for the whole,
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let's just walk through it, right? Who's supposed to be responsible for the
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sort of grooming thing, right? Who's allowing this to happen?
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Are you asking me or is this a rhetorical question that you're...
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No, no, no. I'm asking you, like, who's responsible?
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Well, I don't know that I would literally say that it is a systemic grooming problem. My point
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would be that either ideological or, in some instances, sexual grooming is happening, um,
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on a basis that is not highlighted enough in the education system, especially when it comes to
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gender ideology. So if your point that you're about to make or try to, the parallel that you're making
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is that I believe it's some, like, secret cabal of Jewish people at the top of public education
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that is, like, pushing this grooming. That's certainly not what I believe. I can't speak for
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everyone. Um, but I, I understand that you're trying to say that it's basically like this QAnon
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conspiracy theory in which they think that there is this cabal of elites that's running a pedophile
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ring and that Donald Trump is going to, like, come in and save the day. So you think that's basically
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what people who are complaining about grooming a public education system are doing?
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Well, I'm, I'm aware of quite a few people who say that there's basically, uh, how do they
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characterize it as a handshake agreement between, um, this, you know, group of people who are abusing
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children and, uh, sort of elites, right? That's the key word. You just use the word elite,
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right? And that, that word elite is in quotes or, you know, triple parentheses or whatever.
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And somehow it always leads back to George Soros or something like that, right? You're aware that
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this, that this dynamic, uh, well, I think, yeah. So I think that probably just as there are like
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things on the left that I don't completely understand and that I conflate because I'm
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coming from a more antagonistic perspective of progressivism. I do think it's easy to conflate
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like real complaints about George Soros and how he has funding, for example, progressive DAs,
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which conservatives would disagree with. And some of the organizations that he has funded in the
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policies that he has kind of advocated for in the United States. And then this group of truly like
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white supremacist, racist people who think, and I've seen them too. I'm not denying that they exist.
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And maybe they identify as the right of people who think that, you know, Jews are controlling the
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world and that they're controlling our entertainment, whatever it is. Um, I, I definitely think it's wrong
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to conflate people who say, Oh, George Soros is behind a lot of bad stuff in the United States.
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And people who think that like Jews are ruining the world. And I definitely think it's wrong to
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conflate the parents who are worried about a lot of the grooming type curriculum in public schools.
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And then these like antisemitic QAnon conspiracy peddlers. And that's what it seems like you're
00:25:32.600
doing. Okay. So the way that, uh, sort of conspiracy theory, theory ecosystems operate, um,
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it's, uh, so I want to make two points. The first is that it can be, um, contribute to the toxicity of,
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um, ecosystems in which conspiracy theories thrive, uh, for people who don't necessarily endorse
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sort of, uh, you know, the whole antisemitic global elite sort of narrative to say like,
00:26:08.780
well, I'm just asking some questions here. Right. Um, uh, but second point and relatedly,
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um, you say that, that, you know, parents, uh, and other people have concerns about grooming type
00:26:23.440
behavior in, um, public schools and public school curriculum. Um, I wonder if you could say a little
00:26:29.900
bit more about that because, um, you said a moment ago that you're not actually alleging some kind of
00:26:34.100
systemic sort of thing. And that's kind of the linchpin that connects it, that connects the claim
00:26:39.100
to the conspiracy theory that, right. Is that there's this huge conspiracy. So if you don't
00:26:43.360
actually think that's going on, right. And the real concern is that, uh, there are elements of
00:26:48.480
the curriculum and say sex education or, uh, yeah, what have you, right. That are contributing to say,
00:26:55.040
you know, grooming behavior. I wonder if you could say a little bit more about what you mean by that.
00:26:58.660
Yes. So I think that there's a difference between prevalence and system or something that is
00:27:03.780
prevalent and something that is systemic. If I am defining systemic correctly, it's everywhere. It's
00:27:10.520
within the system, it's within the institutions. And I do think that there are, in, in my opinion,
00:27:15.500
from my perspective, like I think that teachers unions in general are toxic. And I do think that a lot of
00:27:21.240
the organizations that push the curriculum that I would see as destructive, um, that, I mean,
00:27:27.380
that is part of, I guess the system and the institution. But when I think about systemic,
00:27:30.960
I think about it's everywhere. It's in the foundation, it's inescapable. And I'm not
00:27:35.960
sure that that is true of the public education system, but do I think it's pervasive or do I
00:27:40.320
think it's prevalent? I do. And example after example has demonstrated that to me over the past
00:27:45.740
year and really has changed my perspective on like the health of our public education system
00:27:51.660
when it comes to what is being taught. And so I can kind of give some examples, um, about that.
00:27:58.360
There is, there's this terrible lawsuit that is occurring in California right now, and it is a
00:28:05.200
mother versus speckles union. She is actually suing the middle school in California because her daughter
00:28:12.120
was recruited, uh, to join the equality club in sixth grade and told she may be transgender and
00:28:18.860
bisexual. The teachers encouraged Jessica Conan's daughter to change her name to a boy's name as an
00:28:24.060
expression of her new identity and specifically instructed her not to tell her mother about her
00:28:28.620
new identity. And then a part of this lawsuit actually alleges that there is a parental secrecy
00:28:34.340
policy at the school in which the kids are instructed, Hey, you can transition at school.
00:28:39.500
You can identify as something else at school, and we will not tell your parents. There's also a
00:28:43.960
Florida lawsuit. The parents of a Florida elementary school student are suing their daughter's
00:28:48.040
school district after their child attempted to commit suicide following the school's efforts
00:28:51.800
to orchestrate her secret transition to a male gender identity. There was this horrible, I'm sure
00:28:56.920
you would agree, a tragic story of this immigrant, Yalie Martinez. She was told by her middle school and
00:29:02.940
then high school that, Hey, maybe because you like boy stuff, you should transition to the opposite sex.
00:29:07.960
Her mother had no idea that that was something that was happening. She wasn't able to give her the
00:29:13.200
support, provide the support that she needed. The school actually took the teenager out of her
00:29:17.800
home saying, Hey, this mother is not being supportive of this gender transition. This child
00:29:22.580
bounced around to different group homes and ended up throwing herself on the train tracks and committing
00:29:28.360
suicide. And so these are just a few examples. Transition Closet has also been funded just recently
00:29:34.540
in Columbia, Missouri. These are just a few examples. I could go through example after example,
00:29:39.480
all of this kind of behavior by schools to draw or to drive a wedge between parents and their children.
00:29:47.260
And I'm sure you have a different perspective on this, but if that is not a form of grooming,
00:29:52.500
I don't know what is. I mean, that is an aspect of what predators do. You drive a wedge between the
00:29:59.880
person who is supposed to protect the child and the child. And so that's what I'm seeing. That's what
00:30:05.380
breaks my heart. That's what scares me. I certainly don't connect it to some like grand anti-Semitic
00:30:10.060
conspiracy theory. That's just something I'm seeing as a mom, as a person that really worries
00:30:15.380
me for kids. Does that not concern you? Uh, sure. So, so is the allegation that I'll stipulate to all
00:30:22.880
the, all the facts under litigation, um, uh, is the allegation that the teachers were then preparing
00:30:31.020
to sexually assault the students? No. And I don't think that that is what is being claimed by a lot
00:30:37.460
of people. Of course there are instances, right? I mean, it's no. And I think that actually conservatives
00:30:42.840
have been very specific. Now, maybe if you're not completely privy to like the conversations that
00:30:47.900
conservatives are having among each amongst each other, which I understand. Well, I think that there
00:30:53.420
is a form of ideological grooming or we believe grooming or pressuring into believing. Yes, but I
00:31:03.260
think that we have been pretty specific. I believe that we have been pretty specific about what exactly
00:31:09.580
we mean by grooming. Ideological grooming. Of course, I do believe that there is sexual grooming in every
00:31:15.960
institution. You've brought it up. This has happened in the church as well. And so I'm not minimizing
00:31:20.940
like any of the dangers or the reality of that happening in other places beyond, um, the public
00:31:26.760
education system. So I don't think in every instance, this is a situation where teachers are
00:31:32.560
looking to sexually assault the students. Of course that happens, but do I think it is a form of grooming
00:31:37.760
children into a certain kind of behavior, into a certain kind of lifestyle without the consent and
00:31:42.900
the knowledge of their parents in order to conform the kids into their own image or their own ideology
00:31:47.900
or whatever it is, or whether they think they're being inclusive and great. It is a form of grooming
00:31:52.880
a child into a certain lifestyle that is, in my opinion, extremely destructive.
00:31:59.460
Right. So the, so this, uh, actually has some resonances with this sort of, um, conspiracy type
00:32:08.400
approach to these issues. Right. And the idea is that, um, the whole reason why elites have, uh, reached this
00:32:16.780
bargain with people who are, I guess, ideologically grooming children is that, uh, they want to
00:32:22.800
destabilize society by alienating children from their parents, uh, making way for, uh, you know,
00:32:29.760
the construction of a new social order. So I'm not really even sure how we can say that that's
00:32:36.280
a conspiracy. Like, I mean, what do you make of these like transition closets and these instances
00:32:41.980
of, of schools and teachers and guidance counselors saying, Hey, yeah, we're going to transition you.
00:32:49.000
We're going to pull you from your home because you're 13 years old and your parent says, Oh, no,
00:32:53.700
my daughter's not a son. And I'm not going to go along with this, even though I love them very much.
00:32:58.200
Like, I mean, what, what do you think the purpose is behind that?
00:33:03.600
There. Uh, Oh, I can, I mean, I can't, I don't know what the, the motive is. I can't,
00:33:08.480
I can't speak to that, but do I think that, um, it's connected to a Marxist strategy for
00:33:14.180
destabilizing society in general? Well, I don't think that that is probably the intent of a lot
00:33:20.580
of people, but I, that is also always the natural progressive, uh, progression of, of Marxism and
00:33:27.320
progressivism in general. It's destabilizing because it seeks to tear down and it really never
00:33:32.120
has anything cohesive or coherent to replace it with, of course, from my perspective.
00:33:36.700
Well, there are ideas, but they don't, they never seem to work out.
00:33:40.360
Yes. Yeah, exactly. If you're looking to talk with a Marxist, you pick the wrong person.
00:33:47.960
No, I'm not, I, I'm not trying to like accuse you of being a Marxist. I guess all I'm saying
00:33:55.900
is that, okay, these are like very legitimate concerns. And maybe you can, maybe you don't
00:34:00.700
like the word grooming because you think, okay, there's always sexual connotations with that.
00:34:04.380
And that is like the wrong accusation. And I can, I can understand, I can understand that,
00:34:09.120
uh, for sure. And maybe I should just like be more careful about choosing the word, but
00:34:12.780
in, I mean, it is, it is a form. If you're talking to kindergartners, which is something that's
00:34:18.560
happened. Like if you were introducing a book like genderqueer to elementary and to middle school
00:34:23.720
students, and we're talking about like graphic images of like oral sex and talking about like
00:34:29.240
switching your gender at that young of an age, when a child's mind is so malleable, like when
00:34:34.260
you know they can be shaped, introducing that kind of sexual graphic content and that kind
00:34:40.500
of confusion that has to do with their genitals. It does. Like if you're talking to students
00:34:45.060
about that without the consent and the knowledge of the parent, even if your intent is not to
00:34:49.220
sexually assault them, like, what do you call that other than grooming? Like, do you think
00:34:52.040
that's just good inclusive teaching? I absolutely do not endorse showing graphic sexual images
00:35:01.260
to kindergartners. So you would think it's a problem that in many middle schools and elementary
00:35:05.800
schools across the country, that book genderqueer is on the shelves for kids to read.
00:35:12.480
Yeah, I guess I would, I wonder how prevalent that is. Um, I don't, I don't doubt that it,
00:35:17.300
I don't doubt that it's happened. I'm not, I'm not. Do you think that it's, do you think
00:35:21.400
it's okay for teachers to talk to elementary school students about like switching their
00:35:25.980
gender and changing their pronouns without their parents' knowledge and consent?
00:35:29.720
And so then I guess you're saying this is happening in the context of a classroom, like
00:35:34.440
the teacher is just talking to all the whole class, like, oh, by the way, um, yeah, teaching
00:35:39.240
them about like so-called gender inclusion and that it's possible to be born a girl and assign
00:35:44.720
sex at birth and then change your gender later on. Do you think that's okay?
00:35:48.740
Like as a part of the curriculum to just present that information to like the program?
00:35:53.780
Do you think it's okay for a teacher to be talking about that to young students?
00:35:59.140
I guess context is always, like, does the, has the student approached the teacher and
00:36:04.560
with concerns about this and the teacher like brings in the guidance counselor?
00:36:10.260
Like all, I don't, I mean, I guess I don't know the hypothetical situations. I'm not sure if
00:36:14.000
you're probably not a fan of libs of TikTok, but the teachers that we see every single
00:36:18.580
day, like posting videos saying, oh, you know, today I, um, read a book about like, I am
00:36:25.240
jazz or I think, uh, it's one is called like Jackie, not Jack, these children's books that
00:36:32.280
are about, Hey, if you want to change your clothes and if you want to be a different gender,
00:36:36.480
I mean, I can't tell you that this is happening at every public school at every public school
00:36:40.780
district, but there are enough complaints leveled. There is enough video evidence of this happening
00:36:44.980
admissions by teachers happening on a daily basis that we know that it's happening across the
00:36:49.460
country at, uh, I think a pretty scary clip, um, from my perspective. And so I'm just curious,
00:36:57.440
like what you think about that? Like, do you still think that people who are complaining about
00:37:01.200
that being a form of grooming are like contributing to an antisemitic conspiracy theory?
00:37:07.580
Oh, right. Okay. So again, I'm not accusing you or anyone who's, uh, who any specific people
00:37:15.660
who were, who were put, you know, talking about this on Twitter on that particular day, a couple
00:37:19.480
months ago of, of, uh, themselves advancing, uh, antisemitism. Uh, but my, the point, right. So a
00:37:28.920
trope, right. I called it a trope for a reason. A trope is a kind of refrain, right? Um, it's a,
00:37:36.500
you know, musical term to have to do has to do with melody, right? There's a certain kind of
00:37:40.000
melody that it follows. Um, yeah. So do I think that parents, here's the essence of the question,
00:37:49.700
I think. Do I think that parents who complain about their first grader being read stories by a public
00:37:58.320
school teacher, uh, that suggests that they should consider changing their gender who complain are
00:38:05.060
therefore guilty of advancing antisemitism? No, I do not.
00:38:09.380
So then the people like me, commentators who are seeing, wow, this didn't just happen once or twice,
00:38:26.780
but this is happening over and over again. It seems, it seems like there's lots of parents
00:38:30.120
across the country, even if it's only hundreds, yes, percentage wise, that's small, but okay,
00:38:33.940
that's happening. Hundreds of parents at least are complaining about this kind of thing and those
00:38:38.180
kinds of books in the library. Okay. So you talk about that and you complain about that and you
00:38:44.060
say, Hey, this is a form of grooming that seems to be happening. These transition clauses, the
00:38:47.980
separation of parent and child, there's this terrible story. And I'm sure that you disagree
00:38:51.740
with this happening, but a 17 year old student, um, in Ohio at Hudson high school, he told his parent
00:38:58.760
that he was prompted by the teacher to write a sex scene that they wouldn't show their mom
00:39:04.740
and actually posted like a worksheet of that assignment. Um, I mean, that kind of thing,
00:39:11.200
unfortunately is happening. So people who complain about that are saying, Hey, this is happening more
00:39:16.280
than once. This is a problem. We should probably be against that. It just doesn't seem, I don't see
00:39:23.340
the connection, the real connection, the provable connection between that and the QAnon trope that
00:39:29.600
you say is being appropriated here. It just seems like you use that originally to like
00:39:34.600
de-legitimize and dismiss people's real concerns about this happening.
00:39:38.560
So, so remember that, remember the connection, right? So the connection is that there is an
00:39:42.540
agreement between people who are, uh, grooming sexually or ideologically grooming, uh, children,
00:39:52.440
right? And if ideologically, then the, um, the say indoctrination has to do with gender and sexuality,
00:40:02.560
right? Um, and that there's an agreement between the folks who are doing that in the public school
00:40:08.660
system and then elites who are allowing this to happen because they want to alienate children from
00:40:16.260
their parents, destabilize society in order to deconstruct the social order and reconstruct society.
00:40:24.320
I mean, presumably along communist lines with, you know, central economic planning and all that, uh,
00:40:30.040
and eventually, you know, lead to some kind of one world government or something like that, right? That
00:40:36.200
is the antisemitic bit. Now I understand that, uh, you didn't mean to imply all of that. Uh, and again,
00:40:45.340
I didn't see your, your thread until after we communicated. Yeah. I think that it's, I still
00:40:52.240
think it's like, it's such an unfair categorization. It would be the same thing as me saying, Hey,
00:40:57.140
you say systemic racism is real because of X, Y, Z. Well, critical race theory also says systemic
00:41:01.960
racism is real. Critical race theory is a subset of critical theory. Critical theory is a subset of
00:41:06.460
Marxist. You're a Marxist and you really do want to destabilize society because you believe in those
00:41:11.300
things that would be an unfair accusation of people who believe that systemic racism is real, right?
00:41:18.400
That would be unfair for me to say. But I don't think that's a fair analogy. And actually, I think
00:41:23.380
that like it's, that is actually much more logical and I have a much better case to make than the one
00:41:29.000
that you're making. So I'm not sure that's a fair analogy. Um, because I, I, I pointed out,
00:41:37.740
I believe that, um, the talk of, uh, quote unquote grooming, uh, is part of a conspiracy theory that's
00:41:50.220
documented, right? Uh, that plays on antisemitic tropes. I didn't say you're talking about children
00:41:57.960
being groomed in public schools. Therefore you are an antisemite. I didn't say that. And I wouldn't
00:42:02.400
say that. I was, uh, I want to say I was careful not to say that, but I, I didn't, I'm not sure
00:42:07.140
how much care was involved. I just, that that's just not a claim I make.
00:42:10.820
Okay. Well, I definitely, I don't want to seem like I'm putting words in your mouth or accusing
00:42:15.240
you of something that you didn't do because you're right. You said that it's an appropriation of an
00:42:19.160
antisemitic trope. You didn't say everyone who complains about this is an antisemite. So I don't
00:42:22.920
want it to seem like I'm implying that. I simply think that making that connection,
00:42:28.400
even making that connection is in a way implying that people who complained about it are at the
00:42:36.020
very least appropriating or contributing to are a part of even unknowingly some kind of grand
00:42:43.100
conspiracy theory that does, even if that's not the intent, the impact is to delegitimize, uh,
00:42:49.840
people's real concerns about this and kind of describe it as some kind of moral panic and
00:42:54.600
propaganda by the religious right. When unfortunately there's a lot of evidence
00:42:58.160
of this happening. Um, I'll give you, I'll give you the final word and then, um, let you tell people
00:43:04.520
where they can find you if they want to follow you. Okay. Um, so it, it sounds to me like, um,
00:43:13.160
what you're describing is concerns about a number of concerning incidents. Yeah. And, uh, it sounds to me
00:43:24.220
like you're not actually claiming that there is some kind of, uh, uh, conspiracy, uh, at work here.
00:43:35.620
And so I think that it is, I do think it is intentional. I think that the impact will be
00:43:41.980
the destabilization of society. And I don't think it's any question that the public education system
00:43:46.580
is run mostly by people who have a progressive ideology. That's been true for a very long time.
00:43:51.480
If you look at the, uh, political leanings of the teachers unions and where this curriculum is
00:43:55.840
coming from, like you're not seeing, Oh, there's like also, there's a huge push for like, uh, hard,
00:44:02.560
right, conservative, like curriculum, or there has been over the past 60 years, there's been some
00:44:07.080
like Christian nationalist takeover of like the public education system, but you can't see.
00:44:11.760
So there's an interesting book called the hijacking of history that you might be interested
00:44:15.040
to read. Um, there, uh, particularly, uh, school boards in Texas have very much been taken over by,
00:44:20.720
uh, the religious right. And this, and this, uh, as goes Texas, so goes many states because the public
00:44:26.760
school system in Texas is quite large, uh, and therefore has a lot of purchasing power.
00:44:30.520
That would be, that would be like, that would be quite the pendulum swing if, uh, public education
00:44:36.060
system swings to the right and swings to, uh, Christianity.
00:44:40.220
Well, I have, I have, I have students, I have college students sometimes who grew up in the
00:44:44.140
South as did I. Right. And so I, I had similar experiences who like they, they sincerely believe
00:44:50.940
that, uh, the civil war was about liberty on the side of the South. Yeah. They're, I mean,
00:44:58.500
propaganda and it's still in public school textbooks in the South. This is documented.
00:45:02.680
I, I, I hear people say that, and I am sure that there are incidents, unfortunately, of that happening.
00:45:08.180
I grew up in Texas. I went to a private Christian school, very conservative. And I learned everything
00:45:15.920
about the Holocaust, about the trail of tears, about slavery, about the civil war. And I'm not
00:45:20.860
saying, Oh, well, just because I experienced that, that means that no one's different experience is
00:45:26.280
legitimate. I'm not, I'm not saying that, but I hear those kinds of anecdotes all the time. And I'm
00:45:31.860
not saying that there's no misinformation that comes from the right or conservative school districts.
00:45:35.960
My argument, my contention is that the kind of ideological grooming that we are seeing in the
00:45:41.000
form of gender ideology from progressives is a lot more pervasive. And in my opinion,
00:45:45.920
like if we're going to weigh the two a lot more destructive, that's my point. You have a different
00:45:50.200
perspective. And I do really appreciate you taking the time to come on and talk to me about it.
00:45:54.360
Hopefully when we have more time, maybe we can talk about, you have a book coming out,
00:45:58.940
I think. Right. And so maybe when the book comes out, you can come back on. And after I read it,
00:46:04.540
we can talk about the different points and where we agree and disagree.
00:46:08.600
That would be delightful. Thank you so much for inviting me on the show.
00:46:15.800
All right. I hope that you guys enjoyed that, that you got a lot out of it. I do really appreciate,
00:46:21.780
as I said, him coming on and having the discussion with me. Hopefully we'll be able to
00:46:25.980
have him back and, and talk even further tomorrow. I will be talking to Steve Dace about this Hunter
00:46:32.760
Biden drama, which I really haven't talked about because it really makes me sad and it really
00:46:36.940
curses me out too, but it's actually, it's, it's important. It's important for us to know
00:46:41.960
why it matters to us, how it impacts us, how it impacts national security and how it fits into
00:46:47.300
everything that is going on in the geopolitical sphere. And so, and even theologically, what are the
00:46:52.680
theological implications of how we should think about like our leaders engaging in this kind of
00:46:58.180
behavior? Because it's not just Hunter Biden. It's also how Joe Biden is complicit and compromised in
00:47:03.340
all of this. And so we'll be discussing that with Steve Dace tomorrow. We'll also be covering some
00:47:09.240
other things as well. So make sure that you tune into that. If you love this podcast, as always,
00:47:13.600
please leave us a five-star review. That would mean a lot. We will see you guys back here tomorrow.