Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 669 ｜ My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology

00:00:00.000 What in the world is going on in the church, specifically the Baptist church?

00:00:05.720 Popular Southern Baptist pastor Matt Chandler announced over the weekend

00:00:09.460 that he is temporarily stepping down from his role as lead pastor of his church

00:00:14.240 because of an inappropriate online relationship.

00:00:17.780 Also, the DOJ is investigating the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:00:22.360 Is that investigation legit?

00:00:24.460 And another blow to Baptist.

00:00:27.480 Baptist Presbyterian podcasters say that Baptist theology caused transgenderism.

00:00:33.060 I will give you my analysis on all of this today.

00:00:36.120 This episode, as always, is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers.

00:00:40.300 Go to GoodRanchers.com slash Allie for American meat delivered to your front door. 1.00

00:00:45.120 That's GoodRanchers.com slash Allie.

00:00:47.020 Hey, y'all.

00:00:57.360 Welcome to Relatable.

00:00:58.500 Happy Tuesday.

00:01:00.520 All right.

00:01:00.920 So as you could tell from the introduction, we are taking a break from news and politics,

00:01:05.160 and we are talking about things that are happening in the church,

00:01:08.680 specifically things that are happening in the Baptist denomination.

00:01:13.940 As we've talked about before, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest and the most

00:01:18.040 influential denomination in Protestantism in America.

00:01:22.440 And so even though this might seem like a niche subject, it actually is relevant for all Christians,

00:01:28.480 I would say all conservatives, and really kind of all Americans,

00:01:31.300 because it's such an influential and politically active denomination.

00:01:35.180 It's important for everyone to kind of understand the direction it's going, what's happening with its leaders.

00:01:42.680 So I first want to talk about this Matt Chandler story.

00:01:47.240 I will just summarize what happened and then I'll kind of give my personal reaction to it.

00:01:51.680 Matt Chandler, if you don't know, he's the lead pastor of teaching at the Village Church in Flower Mound, Texas.

00:01:58.340 That's a suburb of Dallas.

00:02:00.720 He is the president of the Acts 29 Network, which is a global church planning ministry.

00:02:06.220 He really, he burst on the stage, I would say, for most people.

00:02:11.160 Most people started knowing who he is and listening to his sermons online, I would say, probably around like 2008.

00:02:20.700 Now, he had been around before that, of course, as a pastor, as a teacher.

00:02:25.020 I'm sure locally a lot of people knew who he was before that.

00:02:28.380 But nationally, it seems, at least in my consciousness and in my memory,

00:02:32.760 it seems like he really became popular around 2008, 2009.

00:02:36.780 Now, that is also, that also happens to be when I started listening to him.

00:02:40.800 So maybe that's it.

00:02:42.480 But in my mind, it seemed like that's when he really started rising to national prominence and popularity.

00:02:50.020 So a lot of you have probably heard his sermons.

00:02:53.580 You've either watched some of the videos that he's put out or watched some of his sermons.

00:02:58.460 One of his most famous clips online is Jesus Wants the Rose.

00:03:03.000 Like, I remember showing my friends that in college.

00:03:05.660 And as I'll talk about in a few minutes, he has been very, very influential on my theology,

00:03:11.140 my understanding of the gospel, especially when I was a junior, senior in high school.

00:03:16.200 So even though I've had plenty of disagreements with him and his takes on social and so-called

00:03:21.420 racial justice over the past few years, I would still say he has been extremely impactful

00:03:29.100 on my faith and on my love for theology and understanding of Scripture.

00:03:35.320 So the story that I'm about to summarize, it makes me very personally sad for the reasons

00:03:43.340 that I just listed.

00:03:44.980 And I will expound upon that in just a minute after I tell you what happened.

00:03:49.880 So this is according to Christianity Today.

00:03:52.380 Matt Chandler steps aside after inappropriate online relationships.

00:03:58.020 So Christianity Today, just FYI, I would categorize it now as a progressive publication.

00:04:03.940 It hasn't always been as overtly progressive as it is today.

00:04:10.300 But when it comes to this story, they do give us a pretty detailed summary of what happened

00:04:16.440 over the weekend with Matt Chandler and his church.

00:04:18.660 So the article says on Sunday, August 28th, Chandler announced to his church that he had

00:04:24.360 an inappropriate online relationship with a woman.

00:04:27.440 He is taking an indefinite leave of absence from preaching and teaching.

00:04:31.540 Now, this is an important part here.

00:04:34.540 I know that maybe if you've already looked at the story online, then you're seeing a lot

00:04:38.620 of people make assumptions or saying things that we just don't actually know are true.

00:04:45.660 This is a really important point.

00:04:47.580 The church says that the relationship or the conversations, the interactions that he was

00:04:52.020 having with this woman online were not sexual or romantic in any way.

00:04:55.880 But the elders of the church believe that the frequent and familiar direct messages that

00:05:01.740 were exchanged over Instagram were, quote, unguarded and unwise and revealed something unhealthy

00:05:08.240 in Matt Chandler.

00:05:10.300 So how this all started, and this is according to Matt Chandler himself and his announcement

00:05:15.460 to his church over the weekend.

00:05:17.220 He says that the red flag came several months ago when a woman approached him in the foyer of

00:05:22.980 the village church after a church service and confronted him with concerns about how he

00:05:29.060 was communicating with a friend of hers, a female friend of hers, and that she didn't

00:05:34.260 think that these online exchanges that they were having were appropriate.

00:05:38.680 Now, Chandler says that he pushed back on this initially, saying, you know, look, my wife

00:05:44.960 knows about these messages.

00:05:46.820 Her husband knows about these messages.

00:05:48.780 I'm sure that he defended himself by saying this is not romantic, you know, this is totally

00:05:55.140 platonic.

00:05:56.260 But he says that he was disoriented by this confrontation and conversation.

00:06:00.660 And so he says that he immediately went to the elders in his church and he said, hey, here's

00:06:06.920 what happened.

00:06:07.800 I want accountability.

00:06:09.100 I want total transparency.

00:06:11.400 He says that he called for a third party investigation.

00:06:14.760 And so church leadership and this investigation reviewed his DMs and decided that they were

00:06:20.860 concerning, again, not romantic or sexual.

00:06:24.380 But he says that there was coarse joking, that there was crude joking, that, again, it was

00:06:29.260 just very frequent and familiar and that they found this to be very inappropriate.

00:06:35.820 So the law firm that they hired as the third party investigator decided that Chandler had

00:06:46.620 violated the church's social media use policy.

00:06:51.860 Chandler said this, quote, it was that our conversations were unguarded and unwise.

00:06:55.780 And because I don't ever want there to be any secrets between us, the concerns were really

00:06:59.520 about frequency and familiarity.

00:07:01.200 We believe in brother-sister relationships here.

00:07:04.220 And yet there was a frequency that moved past that.

00:07:06.840 And there was a familiarity that moved past that.

00:07:09.940 And there was a familiarity that played itself out in coarse and foolish joking.

00:07:15.200 It's unbefitting to someone in my position.

00:07:17.520 If I'm honest, he says, I'm just really embarrassed, feel stupid, feel dumb, feel like I'm embarrassing

00:07:23.560 my wife and kids, putting a ton of pressure on our staff.

00:07:28.100 And Acts 29, which he is the head of, has also asked Matt Chandler to step down from his

00:07:36.380 responsibilities and day-to-day operations are going to be moved to someone else.

00:07:44.280 And so this was a shock for a lot of people, including me, including someone who has really

00:07:49.220 respected him.

00:07:50.100 And he just seems like someone.

00:07:52.520 And I'm not even saying that he's not in general, but he really does seem like someone

00:07:58.760 who is above reproach.

00:08:01.580 He talks a lot about being above reproach and being a good man, a good husband, someone that

00:08:10.760 is accountable, someone who is transparent and honest.

00:08:14.880 And so I think a lot of people who really respect and admire him are disappointed by this.

00:08:20.080 Obviously, so thankful that it's not romantic and that it is not sexual.

00:08:25.120 I mean, praise God for his protection in that.

00:08:29.700 Thank God for that.

00:08:31.060 But still, a lot of people are, of course, saddened, even while there is a ton of grace and there's

00:08:37.820 a ton of understanding and there's a ton of gratitude for the confession and for the

00:08:43.280 actions of the church in trying to hold him accountable.

00:08:47.700 We'll talk in a minute about church discipline, how I think that this is a good example of

00:08:52.760 how the church is to discipline its pastor.

00:08:56.220 And I also think that Matt Chandler's attitude and his disposition and what appears to be

00:09:03.320 genuine humility in confessing this sin and submitting to his elders is a really good

00:09:08.660 example of how the local church is supposed to operate.

00:09:12.100 Now, not all reactions were like that, as you can imagine on Twitter.

00:09:16.600 As I mentioned a few minutes ago, there are people who are making assumptions.

00:09:20.160 There are people who are jeering, who are cheering over this because they don't like

00:09:23.720 Matt Chandler.

00:09:24.360 Now, I've already said that I've had disagreements with Matt Chandler over the past few years

00:09:29.100 when it comes to social justice and so-called racial justice comments that he's made about

00:09:34.380 things like white privilege and systemic racism and Black Lives Matter.

00:09:38.380 And I just have not agreed with a lot of his opinions when it comes to those things and

00:09:46.480 even his attitude surrounding those things.

00:09:48.980 And I say that as someone who doesn't have it all figured out myself, but I have really

00:09:55.500 it's really made me sad.

00:09:59.580 The disagreements that I've had with him on these kind of what I think are major issues

00:10:03.680 over the past few years.

00:10:04.960 And yet the people who are jeering and cheering on social media over this or making assumptions

00:10:10.480 or gossiping about this are not the people who, like me, have disagreed with him on those

00:10:17.060 kinds of issues, but really the people who would probably identify as progressive Christians.

00:10:23.780 So here is one tweet by Mike, the therapist, who says,

00:10:28.420 I've counseled well over 100 pastors who were disciplined or fired for sexual reasons.

00:10:34.440 Here's an absolute rule I found.

00:10:35.760 Whatever they admit to is the bare minimum of what has happened.

00:10:39.460 They only admit to exactly what they were caught doing.

00:10:43.400 That is a slanderous assumption.

00:10:45.480 That is because we have no idea if that's true.

00:10:48.460 That's basically saying that this person knows that this pastor, Mike, the therapist,

00:10:54.840 knows that there was actually sexual impropriety here,

00:10:58.020 that there was actually some kind of romantic relationship going on here,

00:11:02.160 and that really he is just being dishonest because he knows that's what he can get away with.

00:11:08.020 I mean, that is, I mean, as far as we know, that is bearing false witness.

00:11:12.740 That is a false accusation.

00:11:14.420 And that in itself is a sin.

00:11:16.600 There's someone else, Boz Chividen, who says,

00:11:19.580 after listening to a statement to the congregation,

00:11:21.340 my educated guess is that there is much more to the story, not in a good way.

00:11:25.120 This has a way of bringing forth the whole truth.

00:11:28.820 And then someone with a trans flag in this person's bio says,

00:11:36.040 just saw the news and read the story about Matt Chandler online.

00:11:38.120 I've got to say, if it was simply that what Mr. Chandler says it is,

00:11:40.920 that it shouldn't rise to the level that this has taken.

00:11:43.860 There's more or else the church's legalism is more toxic than I thought.

00:11:48.020 And that's what's a little bit confusing about these reactions from people who

00:11:51.520 call themselves progressive Christians, which, of course, as I've said before,

00:11:55.040 is really an oxymoron.

00:11:56.980 But that they will simultaneously say that someone like Mike Pence saying,

00:12:02.760 hey, I'm not going to be alone with a woman that's not my wife. 0.99

00:12:07.180 I'm not going to be going to dinner with them.

00:12:10.060 I'm not going to be communicating with them in any kind of private way.

00:12:14.740 They will malign him.

00:12:16.660 They will make fun of him.

00:12:17.680 They will say that that's sexist, that that's misogynist, that that's, you know,

00:12:21.160 patriarchal and paternalistic and that that hurts women and that that is the wrong attitude.

00:12:28.860 That's not a godly attitude.

00:12:30.520 And then those same kind of people will turn around and say that someone like Matt Chandler,

00:12:36.480 oh, well, if they're having a conversation online, then there's got to be more here.

00:12:41.040 There's got to be more going on.

00:12:43.500 It can't just be that they were friendly and familiar with each other.

00:12:48.480 Really, what the so-called progressive Christians can't understand is that the standard of purity

00:12:55.340 and the standard of righteous action and healthy relationships when it comes to Christian teachers

00:13:06.100 is quite a bit higher than what they think it should be or what they think it is.

00:13:12.780 That it is, at least to me, it is not obvious or likely at all that there is some other secret,

00:13:19.780 scary part to this story that the church is not admitting.

00:13:22.880 I think that this is wishful thinking on behalf of a lot of people who really hate Matt Chandler's

00:13:29.580 negative words about things like deconstruction.

00:13:32.740 And the fact that he is conservative, even though I think he has some wrong progressive

00:13:37.300 views on things like social justice.

00:13:39.140 I mean, he is conservative.

00:13:40.680 He has conservative theology.

00:13:42.140 He believes in conservative, what I would simply call biblical gender roles, the biblical

00:13:49.340 definition of marriage, the biblical definition of male and female.

00:13:53.580 He has been a consistent anti-abortion voice for years.

00:13:59.000 And so this, to me, the celebration, I would say like underhanded celebration, the celebration

00:14:08.040 that is that they are trying to like cloak with fake concern coming from these professing

00:14:16.860 Christians on Twitter is really disgusting. 0.99

00:14:20.500 And I think probably speaks to something in their heart more than it does to some kind of hidden

00:14:29.120 reality of the situation.

00:14:31.020 Now, if there is more to this story, well, you know, maybe it will come to light.

00:14:37.380 But I think that it probably speaks to just a gossipy, slanderous motivation in us for us

00:14:44.860 to be trying to make different kinds of assumptions, especially publicly.

00:14:51.960 So I have more to say about this.

00:14:53.880 I have more in-depth and like personal commentary about it.

00:14:57.580 And I do want to talk a little bit about what the Bible says about church discipline and why

00:15:01.680 I think this is a good example of that in a second.

00:15:03.960 So let me tell you a little bit more about why personally this story makes me really sad.

00:15:22.380 Sadder than if it was another prominent evangelical pastor.

00:15:27.920 So my brother introduced me to his sermons, I think, in 2009.

00:15:33.880 So I would have been junior, senior in high school.

00:15:38.160 I visited the church with my brother and his wife around that time.

00:15:42.200 And this was about the time in my life when my faith was becoming real, for lack of a better

00:15:47.020 word.

00:15:47.500 It was going from something that my parents taught me to something that I wanted for myself.

00:15:53.680 I was listening to and reading everything, like a very wide range, like Joel Osteen and

00:16:02.060 C.S. Lewis and Stephen Furtick and David Platt and Donald Miller and John Piper and Rob Bell

00:16:09.160 and Tim Keller.

00:16:10.640 Like I was just reading everything.

00:16:12.520 And honestly, I didn't have a whole lot of discernment back then.

00:16:15.600 I just wanted to know more about theology.

00:16:19.240 I wanted to know more about the Bible.

00:16:21.740 This book that I had really been reading and memorizing my whole life, I really felt like

00:16:26.560 when I was about 16, 17 years old is when the gospel became real to me, when it became

00:16:32.180 also interesting to me.

00:16:34.020 Now, thank God for his Holy Spirit and his discernment and pulling me towards solid teachers

00:16:38.880 and away from the bad teachers.

00:16:41.900 But the person that the Holy Spirit used during that time to help give me that discernment,

00:16:48.400 to help me distinguish between the true gospel and the false gospel, between superficial teaching

00:16:54.880 and profound teaching, was Matt Chandler.

00:16:57.900 I had never heard someone preach the Bible like him with such earnestness and enthusiasm

00:17:04.100 and clarity and humor.

00:17:06.020 And here's what revolutionized my theology at the time and still affects how I read and

00:17:13.460 approach everything to this day, is that he brought everything back to the gospel.

00:17:19.320 It didn't matter whether he was preaching out of Leviticus or John.

00:17:24.040 Everything made its way back to Christ.

00:17:27.140 And that changed the way I read the Bible.

00:17:29.520 That changed the way I saw life.

00:17:31.300 If there was one teacher that I can credit for initially making me excited about theology,

00:17:37.840 enthusiastic about the gospel, it was Matt Chandler.

00:17:41.840 Now, God has used a lot of people, a lot of books, a lot of churches, a lot of sermons

00:17:48.720 in my life that have helped shape my worldview.

00:17:52.180 Too many to name.

00:17:53.780 But Matt Chandler's teaching and preaching changed the game for me about 13 years ago.

00:17:59.120 I made all my friends in college listen to him.

00:18:01.920 I got my now husband hooked on him.

00:18:04.960 Truly, his gift of teaching has been so formative in my life in so many ways.

00:18:10.820 And I don't know him personally at all.

00:18:13.340 I don't think I've even ever met him in person.

00:18:16.140 And yet, this situation, like I feel it personally.

00:18:20.880 It makes me personally sad simply because of how long I've been listening to him, even

00:18:26.420 though I've listened to him less over the past few years because of the concerns that I have

00:18:32.820 when it comes to, as I've said, the issues of race and justice.

00:18:36.460 But this still so deeply disappoints and saddens me.

00:18:40.720 And of course, I too, just like a lot of people, I do have those curiosities about like what really

00:18:47.000 went down here.

00:18:48.300 Of course, I'm wondering like who initiated the conversation, what they talked about.

00:18:52.840 And I'm also I'm thinking about his family, as he mentioned.

00:18:57.320 I'm thinking about his wife and his kids and how difficult this must be.

00:19:01.420 I'm wondering about the woman.

00:19:03.220 How is she feeling about how this went down, how it's being represented by the media, by

00:19:08.740 the church?

00:19:09.500 What about her family?

00:19:11.000 How is all of this for them?

00:19:12.660 Like, does she go to that church?

00:19:13.900 Is she unable to?

00:19:14.940 I don't know any of those questions.

00:19:16.840 There's so much we don't know.

00:19:18.160 And I don't want to do the same thing that a lot of professing Christians on Twitter are

00:19:24.060 doing, particularly those who just don't like him because he is conservative theologically

00:19:30.660 by assuming that there must be so much more to the story or or even I've seen this a lot

00:19:36.940 portraying the woman involved as a victim.

00:19:39.720 There are people saying that Chandler slid into her DMs and are accusing him of abusing his

00:19:45.260 power.

00:19:45.640 We just don't know any of that.

00:19:47.840 And like, I would hate for someone to make those kinds of assumptions about me, especially

00:19:52.180 after I have done what I think is the right thing and being transparent about something.

00:19:57.500 I would hate for someone to try to make further assumptions.

00:20:00.700 I mean, that is gossip.

00:20:01.960 That is slander.

00:20:02.740 It's hateful because it seems to be hoping for someone that you disagree with to fail.

00:20:08.540 And from what we know, at least from what we can see, this was a proper use of church

00:20:15.480 discipline.

00:20:16.660 The Bible speaks to different forms of discipline or also how the different ways in which Christians

00:20:24.540 can disagree or not even just disagree, confront each other about sin in a way that is godly.

00:20:30.640 Matthew 18, 15 through 17 speaks to this.

00:20:34.340 If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

00:20:38.280 If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

00:20:40.400 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may

00:20:44.060 be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

00:20:46.560 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.

00:20:48.820 And if he refuses to listen even to the church, then let him be to you as a Gentile and a 0.91

00:20:55.000 tax collector.

00:20:55.820 So it seems to me like Matt Chandler has believed in, has agreed with his brothers in Christ,

00:21:01.620 the leadership of the church, that the conversation, the interactions that he was having with this

00:21:05.940 woman were inappropriate and is submitting to them.

00:21:11.140 First Corinthians 2, 5 through 11 says,

00:21:13.680 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure, not to put

00:21:18.360 it too severely to all of you.

00:21:19.740 For such one, this punishment by the majority is enough.

00:21:22.300 So you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive

00:21:28.480 sorrow.

00:21:29.000 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.

00:21:31.300 For this is why I wrote that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.

00:21:35.840 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive.

00:21:38.560 Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence

00:21:43.040 of Christ so that he would not be outwitted by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his design.

00:21:49.340 So for the Christian who repents in a church, there is a command to comfort them, to forgive

00:21:56.020 them, to remind them of the grace of God.

00:21:58.980 That is indeed a testimony of the forgiveness that God has shown us through Christ.

00:22:03.520 1 Timothy 3.1, the saying is trustworthy.

00:22:07.360 If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

00:22:13.620 And so the office of overseer or the leader of the church is a noble task, and it's a task

00:22:20.820 that comes with a lot of responsibility, bigger responsibilities, more accountability, and even

00:22:26.700 a higher standard of behavior than other positions within the church or even lay people in the

00:22:35.660 church.

00:22:35.960 James 3.1, not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach

00:22:42.160 will be judged with greater strictness.

00:22:44.420 Now, I am not reading that verse because I don't think that Matt Chandler should be a teacher.

00:22:49.300 Obviously, I think that he has a wonderful gift of teaching and expositing the word of God.

00:22:55.120 I am reading this verse as an example, a biblical example of the bar that is raised for those

00:23:06.080 who are in positions of teaching and authority and influence within the church, that they

00:23:12.180 will be judged with greater strictness.

00:23:14.420 So for the people who are saying, oh, it's just DMs, it's who cares?

00:23:18.080 It's just interactions back and forth with a woman. 0.98

00:23:21.620 Why does he need this level of scrutiny?

00:23:24.020 Why does he need any church discipline at all?

00:23:27.500 Well, look, scripture says that they are going to be judged, that these teachers will be judged

00:23:32.240 with greater strictness.

00:23:33.740 So from everything that I can see, and of course, like I'm not a member of this church.

00:23:38.920 I don't know all of the details.

00:23:41.340 I don't know everything that went down.

00:23:43.720 I'm probably not even privy to all of the information that the members of the village

00:23:48.060 church are, but it seems, at least from the outside, that this was a good and healthy exercise

00:23:54.780 of church discipline and that this was handled in a way that is godly.

00:23:59.780 And I hope that it was handled in a way that considered all parties involved.

00:24:04.080 And I hope that God is glorified through this.

00:24:06.280 Now, outlets like the New York Times have already picked this up and they will sense, I mean,

00:24:12.320 the secular media that hates the church and especially hates the Southern Baptist Convention

00:24:16.500 simply because the majority of Southern Baptists vote Republican and are conservative on their

00:24:23.020 on their issues that they hold up as idols like gender and marriage or, you know, homosexual 0.68

00:24:30.860 unions and abortion. 0.62

00:24:34.780 And so they are going to try to attack him, of course.

00:24:38.700 That's why you are seeing some glee on Twitter from these people who want to see yet another

00:24:45.000 conservative Christian leader step down or be attacked or be destroyed in some way.

00:24:51.700 It also affirms the perspective of a lot of these people that, oh, all church leaders

00:24:57.160 are just giant hypocrites, see Christianity, is it true? 1.00

00:25:01.560 So this is happening at the same time that, as NPR reports, the Department of Justice is

00:25:07.760 investigating the Southern Baptist Convention.

00:25:11.660 So even though Matt Chandler's interaction was not romantic or sexual, this situation is going

00:25:19.940 to be seen in light of the bigger investigation that is going on.

00:25:24.060 And I just want to talk about that briefly before getting to our last story about my disagreements

00:25:29.540 with my friends at CrossPolitik about baptism.

00:25:33.400 All right.

00:25:44.820 So this is according to NPR.

00:25:47.640 On Friday, August 12th, the leader to the SBC said that several of their major entities

00:25:52.200 are under investigation by the United States DOJ after the release of the Guidepost Sex

00:25:57.320 Abuse Task Force findings.

00:25:59.640 Now, I will link the previous episode where we have talked about these investigations.

00:26:05.720 Basically, in May, Guidepost Solutions released a report on sexual abuse and cover-ups in the

00:26:12.160 SBC.

00:26:12.900 They also released a list of pastors and other church-affiliated personnel accused of sexual

00:26:16.900 abuse in June.

00:26:18.360 The list includes more than 700 entries.

00:26:23.820 There is a lot of drama, a lot of back and forth, a lot of disagreement about how that

00:26:29.260 investigation went down, about the inclusion or the conclusion of that investigation.

00:26:36.800 And so go back, listen to that episode for a more detailed kind of analysis of everything

00:26:43.340 there.

00:26:44.120 I mean, it does seem now this is not at all to minimize any real instance of sexual abuse,

00:26:50.940 sexual harassment or cover-up, especially when it involves child victims.

00:26:55.860 I don't want you to hear me minimizing that at all or trying to push back against real

00:27:00.760 accountability for those things, legal accountability for those things, because I think that there

00:27:06.000 is a place for civil authorities when it comes to abuse, even and especially within the church.

00:27:14.820 And I've talked about this before.

00:27:16.320 It is even grosser.

00:27:18.400 It is even worse when it is Christians perpetrating those kinds of crimes and that kind of 1.00

00:27:25.100 perversion because we are supposed to be light in the darkness.

00:27:29.140 We are supposed to be a beacon of goodness and compassion.

00:27:32.520 We are supposed to be a refuge for the most vulnerable, not people who are a refuge for

00:27:36.920 those who prey on the most vulnerable.

00:27:39.120 So I do think it is OK for people to hold the church to a higher standard than they hold

00:27:45.420 secular institutions.

00:27:47.220 But I don't think that there should be different standards legally for the church versus secular

00:27:54.060 institutions.

00:27:54.640 And it does seem when it comes to a DOJ investigation of the SBC that this is a different standard

00:28:00.860 than, say, the DOJ would apply to, I don't know, the public education system, a public school,

00:28:08.220 any kind of entity that happens to align with the politics of the DOJ.

00:28:12.780 It would be hard for me to believe that there isn't at least some kind of political motivation

00:28:17.760 in Biden's DOJ and going after the SBC because, again, the SBC is so majorly conservative and

00:28:26.020 is such a big supporter of Republican political candidates.

00:28:31.700 It's hard for me to believe, based on the previous actions of this DOJ and how they have

00:28:38.140 gone after people based on their political ideology, like the parents, the concerned parents going

00:28:44.200 to school boards and complaining about pornography in their kids' schools.

00:28:49.340 The DOJ said that they were going to be investigating those parents who were just being responsible

00:28:55.840 parents.

00:28:56.380 So really hard for me to believe that this is completely above board, that this is just

00:29:01.780 impartial application of the law against the SBC.

00:29:06.860 There's not a whole lot of detail about what is going on within that investigation.

00:29:14.100 Of course, I'll talk about it more as the investigation goes on.

00:29:19.020 But every time there is an indiscretion or every time there is a true scandal, every time there

00:29:26.580 is an SBC pastor, a Baptist pastor, any evangelical, any Protestant pastor that confesses to any kind

00:29:36.480 of sin publicly, it is going to be weighed against the backdrop of the findings in the SBC and also

00:29:44.480 this DOJ investigation.

00:29:46.280 I don't think that's necessarily fair because that casts it in a maybe a more serious and a harsher light

00:29:54.200 than it needs to be, particularly when it comes to Matt Chandler's case.

00:30:00.500 But I do, I mean, it is important context, of course, for us to understand that there's

00:30:04.600 a lot that's going on in the SBC right now and that it will be subject to a lot of public

00:30:12.520 commentary and a lot of public scrutiny, especially by people who want to see this denomination

00:30:18.060 and Christianity at large fail.

00:30:22.040 As Christians, as a member of the SBC, of course, I pray for true justice.

00:30:29.520 I pray for true transparency and true honesty and true help for those who are victims of

00:30:36.680 violence or victims of a cover-up.

00:30:40.260 But of course, I also pray against any kind of partial injustice that may be being enacted

00:30:46.360 by those who are in power.

00:30:49.080 So in keeping with our Baptist theme, I do want to talk about my disagreements with the 0.86

00:30:56.780 guys over at CrossPolitik.

00:30:59.100 CrossPolitik is a podcast that talks about culture and politics and theology from a Reformed

00:31:09.760 perspective, but they are Presbyterian and I am Baptist.

00:31:13.660 And as Presbyterians, they made some comments about Baptist theology causing transgenderism

00:31:20.480 that, of course, I really disagree with.

00:31:23.120 And so we are, I will explain my disagreement after playing this short clip.

00:31:28.620 Let's say I'm Baptist Wrench.

00:31:31.100 Yeah.

00:31:31.500 And you just said what you said.

00:31:34.820 I know.

00:31:36.600 David gave me permission.

00:31:38.160 You came out and said that my view of waiting till my child is ready to confess faith in

00:31:47.100 our Lord and then baptize him is related to the identity crisis found in transgenderism. 0.55

00:31:56.260 Yeah.

00:31:56.460 And I didn't say related to, I said is the cause of.

00:31:59.880 He tried to give you an out.

00:32:00.820 I was trying to be nice.

00:32:02.180 Trying to give you an out.

00:32:03.000 So, um, man, connect that, you know, someone who has got good, like David said, got good

00:32:09.420 intentions, raising his family, loving Jesus, you know, all that stuff.

00:32:12.060 And, and then you, you throw that bomb in their lap and, and, and you're, you're like,

00:32:17.500 you're the cause of the transgendered problem. 1.00

00:32:19.940 Yeah.

00:32:20.280 Well, their pastor is, but yeah.

00:32:23.180 Okay.

00:32:23.840 So he goes on to explain, and this is my paraphrasing and what I hope to be an accurate,

00:32:29.680 what I want to be an accurate interpretation of the argument, uh, that the idea of allowing

00:32:35.680 our children to choose whether they are following Christ when they're say 13 years old, which

00:32:42.320 he would say, that's what Baptists preach and then be considered a child of God and a

00:32:47.160 part of God's family has provided a foundation for identity crisis in young people.

00:32:53.740 Um, this Baptist idea that baptism is an outward symbol of an inward reality. 0.78

00:32:58.620 I think they would say is very similar to the basis of gender ideology, uh, which says

00:33:04.000 that we get to declare who we are and try to change the external to, uh, match what we

00:33:10.520 feel inside.

00:33:11.700 Whereas I believe they as Presbyterians would say that we baptize our children into the family

00:33:17.100 of God as babies, telling them who they are as partakers in God's new covenant.

00:33:22.360 So I think I do understand what he's saying and I'm not offended by it.

00:33:26.840 I just think it's wrong.

00:33:28.740 Baptists do believe, and I'll explain why biblically in a minute, that baptism is an

00:33:33.240 outward sign of inward regeneration.

00:33:35.760 That when by grace through faith, God makes you a new creation in Christ, that the next step

00:33:40.900 in obedience is baptism, which serves as an important, though not salvific in itself, representation

00:33:46.460 of God's inner working in a person's heart.

00:33:49.080 I would argue that transgenderism, just like every worldly attempt at giving people identity 1.00

00:33:54.780 and purpose outside of their creator, is not a consequence of that theology, but a perversion

00:34:00.460 of it at best and a total denial of it at worst.

00:34:04.040 Whereas the Bible says, and what Baptists like me believe, God made you, he created you

00:34:09.980 in his image.

00:34:10.920 God made you male or female. 0.66

00:34:12.300 And you are either dead in your sin, following the devil, the print of the power of the air,

00:34:16.780 or by grace through faith, you are made alive in Christ, as Ephesians 2 tells us, turned

00:34:21.660 into a new creation who loves God and hates sin.

00:34:25.300 The world says, you make you.

00:34:27.980 You are your own creator.

00:34:29.400 You decide who you are.

00:34:30.860 You declare your identity.

00:34:32.400 Your salvation and satisfaction is found in yourself.

00:34:35.500 Your self-discovery and your self-fulfillment.

00:34:37.940 The only sin, the world says, is not being true to yourself, failing to make yourself

00:34:43.820 happy.

00:34:44.600 The old self is who you were before you truly found yourself.

00:34:48.300 And the new self is who you are after you've unleashed the real you and you started worshiping

00:34:52.560 your inner goddess.

00:34:53.660 That is the exchange of the God of scripture, which Christians, including Baptists, believe

00:34:58.860 in, for the God of self.

00:35:00.820 That is not a manifestation of any form of true Christian theology, but is actually a cheap, 0.83

00:35:07.200 damaging replacement of it like all false teaching.

00:35:12.840 Transgenderism comes from a denial of the very first verse of the first chapter of the 0.99

00:35:18.660 first book of the Bible that God created the heavens and the earth.

00:35:22.220 And therefore, he is the authority over all of it.

00:35:24.540 Genesis 127 says that God, that that authority, that creator, that identity giver, that value

00:35:33.020 ascriber, that purpose provider, that he made us in his image, male and female, it is first

00:35:39.040 the denial of that that has led to transgender ideology and all of the identity and purpose 0.99

00:35:44.560 issues that humans have today.

00:35:46.160 I assure you, Christians who are Baptists hold fast to the truth of God's word in matters

00:35:52.920 of identity and purpose.

00:35:54.080 The debate, really, that we are having is about believer's baptism or infant baptism as it comes

00:36:03.660 to how we should raise our kids and what actually is healthy identity giving.

00:36:09.900 And so let me just tell you briefly, I'll summarize kind of the disagreements between

00:36:15.340 Presbyterians, what they say about baptism and what I, as a Reformed Baptist, would say

00:36:20.380 about baptism.

00:36:24.080 So here is how I would explain the difference in what we think about baptizing and baptizing

00:36:39.840 children, whereas Presbyterians would say, and I think this is the most accurate way 0.97

00:36:43.940 to say this without getting too much into the weeds and the complexities, that baptizing

00:36:49.100 babies is a signifier of a Christian family's covenant with God in the same way that circumcision 0.94

00:36:55.160 was a sign of God's covenant with Israel.

00:36:58.120 Baptists would say that that's not in the Bible, that there is no biblical basis for

00:37:03.200 infant baptism, that there are no examples of babies being baptized in Scripture.

00:37:07.300 The command to baptize others is followed by the command to make disciples of Christ, and

00:37:12.660 the command to be baptized is followed by the command to repent.

00:37:15.560 So, for example, go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name

00:37:21.400 of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28, 19.

00:37:25.760 And he said to them, go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

00:37:30.260 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned,

00:37:35.840 Mark 16, 15 through 16.

00:37:37.800 And Peter said to them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ

00:37:42.520 for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

00:37:47.440 So, those who received the word were baptized, Acts 2, 38 and 41.

00:37:53.500 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God in the name

00:37:58.840 of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women, Acts 8, 12.

00:38:03.740 Now, in Acts 16, 15 and 1 Corinthians 1, 16, we see references to baptizing whole households.

00:38:10.060 But in these, there is no indication here that non-believers or that children who hadn't

00:38:16.000 professed faith were baptized.

00:38:18.500 So, I just find no biblical support for infant baptism.

00:38:23.380 That is one reason why I am a Baptist.

00:38:25.940 Now, of course, there are theologians much wiser than me on both sides of this issue.

00:38:31.800 Like, I certainly would not have wanted to go up against someone like R.C.

00:38:35.700 Sproul on this topic.

00:38:37.280 I think he just knows a little bit more than me about the Bible, about theology, and about

00:38:44.280 the theology of baptism.

00:38:46.240 But there are many other theologians at his same level of wisdom and understanding whom

00:38:50.540 I align with on the issue of baptism.

00:38:53.040 I also see no explicit support for infant baptism being a sign of the new covenant.

00:39:01.640 Like, when we see reference to the new covenant in the New Testament, it is referencing the

00:39:06.920 gospel.

00:39:08.100 2 Corinthians 3, 5 through 6, not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything is

00:39:12.920 coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers

00:39:17.720 of a new covenant.

00:39:19.220 Great chapter talking about our inability to keep the law perfectly to save ourselves.

00:39:23.400 Um, now, as I've mentioned, I am a reformed Baptist, which means in part that I believe

00:39:29.760 that Christians are chosen by God, not that we are in charge of our salvation, but that

00:39:34.220 God is Luke 18, 7, Romans 8, 33, Romans 9, 11, Ephesians 1, 5, Ephesians 2, 8 through

00:39:41.940 10, 2 Timothy 2, 10, Titus 1, 1, 1, 1 Peter 2, 4, the elect, God's chosen ones.

00:39:48.920 God chose us in him.

00:39:52.140 And so, I have significant crossover with the guys at CrossPolitik.

00:39:58.020 I seriously disagree with this idea that Baptist theology is not just similar to, but is actually

00:40:05.600 the cause of, is actually the basis of, uh, transgender ideology.

00:40:12.420 I think that transgender ideology, just, again, like all identity and, um, purpose-centered 1.00

00:40:20.600 secular ideologies are a perversion of and a denial of any form of Christian theology.

00:40:29.320 Now, I, you know, they are my, I, I view them and view Presbyterians who, by grace through

00:40:36.120 faith, believe in the gospel as brothers and sisters in Christ.

00:40:39.900 I think that this is a significant issue.

00:40:42.300 It's not a primary issue.

00:40:44.240 It is not a, um, you know, salvation denying, uh, issue.

00:40:49.300 It's an important one, though.

00:40:50.460 I think it's important to debate.

00:40:52.260 And I know there are a lot of people who are saying, oh, you know, don't listen to CrossPolitik

00:40:57.000 and we shouldn't be linking arms with them in any way because of what they said about Baptist.

00:41:02.980 Maybe some people feel that way.

00:41:04.500 I don't feel that way.

00:41:06.060 I mean, there are harsh words that are said.

00:41:08.880 Now, they did double down on it.

00:41:11.400 They didn't say, oh, well, you know, maybe we could have said that differently or maybe

00:41:14.900 that's not really true.

00:41:16.160 That's concerning to me.

00:41:17.800 I would love to see them kind of more thoroughly, um, debate this issue and hash this out.

00:41:24.400 But I still think that they bring a lot of value to the table, uh, that I am thankful

00:41:30.580 for.

00:41:31.160 But a lot of you kind of were asking about what I thought about this.

00:41:34.220 And you've been asking me for a long time to explain infant baptism versus believer's

00:41:38.940 baptism.

00:41:39.320 So I kind of just scratched the surface of that.

00:41:41.680 Anyway, that's everything that's happening in the, uh, in the, in the Baptist world.

00:41:47.680 I know that I said that I was going to play mom moments at the end of this episode, but

00:41:52.220 we ran out of time.

00:41:53.120 And so I'm going to play your voicemail sometime in the next couple of days.

00:41:57.640 I promise, but we've run out of time on this one.

00:42:00.700 I hope you forgive me, but we will be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - August 30, 2022

Ep 669 ｜ My Thoughts on Matt Chandler & Baptist Theology

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