Ep 679 ｜ Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths ｜ Guest： Dr. Neil Shenvi
Episode Stats
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Summary
As America is becoming increasingly secular, it is more important than ever for Christians to know what we believe and why. And Dr. Neil Shinvee has just written a book called Why Believe that can help prepare you to give a reasonable answer for Christianity, for the gospel.
Transcript
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But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed.
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But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense
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to anyone who asks you for a reason, for the hope that is in you.
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As America is becoming increasingly secular, it is more important than ever for Christians
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And Dr. Neil Shinvee has just written a book called Why Believe that can help prepare you
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to give a sound and reasonable answer for Christianity, for the gospel.
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I think that you will find our conversation about apologetics, about his testimony, and
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about these resources that he has created for the body of Christ really compelling, really
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So without further ado, here is our friend, Dr. Neil Shinvee.
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Dr. Shinvee, thank you so much for joining us again.
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It's been a little bit since you've been on, so could you remind everyone who you are and
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I am currently a homeschooling dad of our wonderful four kids, but I have a PhD in theoretical
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And yet, what you spend most of your time talking about is not theoretical chemistry.
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That's not what you talk about on this podcast.
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And so tell us how you kind of got into that realm and why you started talking and writing
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I became a Christian at UC Berkeley as a graduate student through a number of mechanisms, through
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knowing my future wife, Christina, who was a Christian, through reading C.S. Lewis's book,
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The Screwtape Letters, and through attending church.
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I met some really brilliant people there who were evangelical Christians and just got plugged
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And actually, at Berkeley is where I first became interested in apologetics through knowing
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The atheist student group was called SANE, Students for a Non-Religious Ethos.
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So I got to know some of them, and I wanted to share the gospel with them and with my other
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very scholarly intellectual colleagues in the departments of chemistry and physics.
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So tell us then how you came to write what you do, though, in Shinvi Apologetics, and you
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talk about things that people consider political, although you don't make them political, like
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For the beginning of my Christian life, I was very focused on the gospel.
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I didn't pay much attention to politics or the culture wars.
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And I actually wrote this book years ago, had the first draft finished, and my colleague,
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Dr. Pat Sawyer, who I've collaborated with on a number of issues related to critical theory,
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but he looked at my book and said, this is great.
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But I'd finished the book and was looking around for other areas that I could research
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And that's how I got involved in studying critical theory and reading a lot of books about critical
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theory, critical race theory, queer theory, and so forth, which is how I've kind of become
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And you said that you became a Christian at UC Berkeley, not what many people think of when
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they think of UC Berkeley, someone actually becoming a Christian.
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I think often people think of people going to college, but especially somewhere like UC
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Berkeley and abandoning their faith or kind of abandoning the foundation that was laid
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But what was your journey like leading up to UC Berkeley?
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My parents are wonderful people, very moral people, but they were not religious.
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And so when I went to college, I went to Princeton, and I would have considered myself spiritual
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I probably would have called myself a Christian, but just because, you know, I'm in America.
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I believed in God, but I had almost no understanding of Christian theology.
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So at Princeton, I was actually, as a freshman, I got a copy of the Screwtape Letters, C.S.
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It's a fictional work from a book table that was handing out free copies.
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It was Campus Created for Christ was handing out the books.
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But Lewis's work was fascinating because I read it probably 10 to 20 times as a non-Christian
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I thought to myself, how does this guy know what's going on in my head?
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How does he understand the pride, the temptations, the posturing, the insecurity?
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And that really set the seeds for my eventual conversion.
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And that happened again at Berkeley when basically I just heard the gospel and realized I couldn't
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If this was true, objectively true for everyone, then I had to simply accept it, even if I didn't
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There were lots of questions I had about hell and God's wrath and all these things I didn't
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And so that's how I basically had to humble myself and say, you know, I thought I knew all
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There's so many things in your answer that I would like to unpack.
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But one thing that I was thinking of is you said it was Campus Crusade for Christ and
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I'm sure that people who have kind of manned that book table or who have put those free
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books on a table, they often just think, okay, this is something that I'm doing.
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Little things that Christians do on a daily basis that maybe you're hoping will be consequential
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and share the gospel, but you're not really sure how much it's actually doing.
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Something as simple as putting free C.S. Lewis books on a table, God used that to lead you
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Now you have an impact on so many other people because some campus minister decided that they
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were going to put free books on a table, something that seemed so commonplace and so minimal.
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So as much as your answer, I think, can encourage non-Christians, also it should encourage Christians.
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You never know what your small step of faith, what your seemingly small act of obedience
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in the way of glorifying the Lord can do for the kingdom of God by his power.
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And that's what I'm thinking when I'm thinking of your story.
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You know, I actually gave out books when I was a postdoc at Yale.
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I was part of a book table through Campus Crusade, giving out free books.
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And I shared my own story and said, never, when you see these people grab your book, walk
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Never feel like, oh, God's not going to use that.
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It's like every single act of obedience is important.
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I was like, I'm just handing out these free Bibles.
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But in the front cover, the inscription of that Bible that I had was a passage from Isaiah
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that said, the words that come out of my mouth will not return to me void.
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I'm going to give these out, trusting that God will use them.
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You know, your testimony kind of reminds me of one part.
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If you're familiar with Christopher Yuan, he has written a lot of wonderful books.
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I think his book about his testimony is out of a far country that he wrote with his mom.
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But he talks about how he was in prison and he was laying on the cot in his prison cell.
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And he looked up and he saw a verse and it was Jeremiah 29, 11.
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Now, again, this is just an instance of someone doing something, maybe mindlessly, when they
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were writing Jeremiah 29, 11, who knows why someone who was in that prison cell previously
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And wow, God used that to then kind of be the starting point to transform someone's life
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that has then been used to transform so many other people's lives.
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Tell us a little bit more about how you came to write this book and why this book is distinct
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from your perspective, from other apologetics books out there.
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So I was giving away free copies of Tim Keller's Reason for God at Yale and it got expensive.
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I was like, I can't keep buying these and I just can't afford it.
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And so I was encouraged over the years by friends and by elders at my church to write my
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I mean, there are lots of great apologetics books out there.
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But I think five things I wanted to capture with my book, I wanted it to be accessible
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I was a theoretical chemist and part of my job was trying to think in new, simplified ways
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So a lot of illustrations, not pictures, but ways of thinking about issues like morality,
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God's existence, and things like that that I think are helpful and accessible to everybody.
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So there are a lot of good books out there that are written, I think, I don't want to
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say too simplistically, but they're books that I couldn't hand to my professors at university.
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Because, for example, a great example of this is Jim Wallace's book, Cold Case Christianity.
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So I really enjoyed that book and I thought it was very helpful, but it contains hand-drawn
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And if I were to hand that to an Ivy League professor, they would just look at it and
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Whereas my book is, I interact very heavily with atheist scholars.
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There's a lot of stuff that gives it intellectual heft.
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Third thing, I wanted to be very focused on Christianity.
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I'm not interested in convincing people that just some kind of vague God force exists.
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I wanted to aim at showing that Christianity particularly is true.
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I tackle objections to Christianity like, can miracles occur?
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It's been a long time just explaining to people what does Christianity at its core teach
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And then finally, number five, a lot of people said my scientific background shows in writing
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this book, not because it's full of science, because it's very systematic and logical.
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I make lists of five bullet points, for example, like I just gave.
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And it shows through in that sort of training from a science background is evident, I think,
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So what audience did you have in mind when you were writing this book?
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So the number one audience I had in mind, I wrote this book for Christian students going
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to college who could hand this book to their professors and not feel intimidated.
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So the kind of book that they can not just hand on to other students, that'd be great,
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but to their professors and feel like this is a solid work.
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Um, but that said, if you look at, uh, who, who can benefit, I think, and understand the
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book, one of the endorsements is from Troy Van Voorhees, who's a professor of theoretical
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So extremely high level academic, but the book's also being read by my friend, Stacey Chambers,
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It was a three day apologetics bootcamp to about a hundred homeschooling students, ages 11
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through 18, uh, and it was based on this book's material.
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A couple of parents were sitting in and they said it was a highlight of the kid's summer.
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So I really, I really aim to make it both sophisticated, but also accessible to everybody.
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So it's not the kind of thing you're going to read it and say, I can't make sense of
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And, and your experience in kind of talking to the people who have engaged with your work,
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or I guess just engage with people in general, what would you say is the most difficult obstacle
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or the most difficult question that skeptics or even believers have when it comes to the
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I think the biggest objection that I've heard and that I see both actually among, you know,
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intellectuals and philosophers and among common people is the problem of evil.
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The question is how could a good God allow evil to exist?
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And in the book, again, I gave numerous responses, many of which are very familiar to people who've
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studied the philosophical literature on this topic.
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But I also point out, this is a personal issue as well.
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So you can't merely give them an intellectual answer.
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You have to also give them an answer that speaks to their own lives.
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And I'll give just two responses for the first one, intellectual, which is that, you know,
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That is why God created the, created everything.
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And well, how does evil, although it's evil and God hates it, but it actually does in the
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end further and promote God's glory in two ways.
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One, the fact that God allows sin in the world allows him to demonstrate his love and mercy
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and tenderness in forgiving sinners, and it allows him to display his justice in punishing
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So unless, if God had not allowed sin, he would not, logically, there'd be no way for him to
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display his glory in forgiving sinners or in punish, in his glory in punishing him in his
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So that's one, that's a logical answer, but I think experientially, how do you trust a
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That's where I point to the cross because Christianity alone says God in the person of
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his son, let all of that evil and suffering fall on him.
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And so in the midst of my personal suffering, I can look to God's son and say, he knows what
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He hasn't committed it, but he's experienced the results of it.
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And whatever he's doing in the universe, I can trust this God who suffered in my place.
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You know, I think that especially on a logical level, I can understand kind of in general,
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the existence of evil that, okay, or sorrow or suffering or sickness that, okay, we have cancer
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and we have birth defects and we have miscarriages and we have sadness and rejection and breakups
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and all that stuff because of sin, because we live in a fallen world.
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I think it's, which I think this is something that everyone has experienced in this like
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It's, I think the very specific acts of like abuse and evil towards the most vulnerable
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that I, as a believer who cognitively understands everything that you're saying, I struggle so,
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Like, you know, and maybe this is sinful of me to even doubt or question in this way, but
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to say, okay, I understand why some maybe evil happens, but did God really need to allow that
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child to suffer that abuse or that person to endure that kind of evil, that kind of malice,
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I think a lot of people ask that for themselves, whatever trauma they've endured, but they also
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I mean, a grand example is the specific evil and suffering of, you know, the Holocaust.
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And so, you know, I think some people say, okay, if this all good God would allow that,
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and then they think of themselves and they say, well, I'm not all good, but I would never
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Like, I would never allow my child to go through cancer if I had the choice.
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I would never allow my child to suffer in that way if I had the choice.
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And you're telling me that this God is all good and that he loves me more than I love my
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I think that's something that a lot of people wrestle with.
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And one of the things I say in the book, I say many things, how many points.
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Another point I make is that the Christian perspective on suffering has to be framed by
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We tend, even Christians who are obviously very much concerned with eternal matters, we
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tend to think, well, but this life is so much more immediate to us.
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You have to frame everything in terms of eternity.
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We're thinking, we're talking millions, billions, you know, immeasurable years in the future.
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So the point is, even if you can't explain that some act or event of suffering right now,
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Am I putting this in the larger story of God's purposes that will go on forever?
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Paul talks about terrible suffering that he endured in Corinthians.
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And he talks about how all of that, all of the suffering will seem like nothing in light
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And he was beaten, shipwrecked, stoned, left for dead, abandoned by his friends.
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And he's saying all of that is going to be a drop in the ocean of God's love and forgiveness
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The other answer, I use this illustration elsewhere, imagine that you're in World War
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II in the Pacific, there's a war going on, and you're on an aircraft carrier with an
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admiral, and you get a radio call, SOS distress call from a ship out in the Pacific, and it
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If you don't do something right now and intervene, we're going to sink, we're all going to die.
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And the admiral hears the call come in and does nothing.
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And you go to the admiral, like, well, what's going on?
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The call comes in again, we're under fire, we're under fire, we need someone to send
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And you start berating him, you're like, what's wrong with you?
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And finally, his second companion pulls you aside, and he says, the admiral's son is the
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For whatever reason, he's chosen to allow this suffering to happen.
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Well, Christians say, we don't know why God allows evil and suffering, but his son was
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And God, in the end, he intervened by resurrecting him, but he allowed him to suffer in terrible
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So we can trust that God and say, hey, I don't know what God's plans are.
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I say a lot that God is not, he's not sitting on his hands and saying, I can't believe that
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this is happening, or I didn't see that coming.
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And one thing that comforts me about God that I'm sure in your experience, you've actually
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seen in some cases is an obstacle to people accepting or believing that the gospel is true.
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But it comforts me to know that God is also a God of wrath, that he hates injustice, and
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that he actually promises to take care of evil, and that he actually promises to do away with
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it, that he is going to avenge innocent blood, that one day, like he will defeat evil, he will
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There is actually like punishment coming in the form of his wrath.
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And so it might seem like, as you said, it might seem like if we're just focused on the
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here and the now that he's doing nothing, but his eternal plan of redemption is always
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going off without a hitch, and his wrath is kindling against evil.
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And so one day, like he will take care of all the evil, all of the injustice that we're
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So it's not that he's apathetic toward it, right?
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He actually is going to do something about all of it one day.
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Because in 2 Peter, it said Peter at the time, thousands of years ago, people were saying,
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And Peter says, you don't understand, he's being patient, giving you a chance to repent.
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Well, that's going to fall on you too, if you're not repentant.
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So the point is, he's delaying his judgment so that you have a chance to turn and trust
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And what do you say to those who say, OK, I understand he has to punish the Hitlers of
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He has to punish the really evil people, the people that, you know, hurt others, that exploit
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But why do the people who, like you mentioned, your parents are very moral people.
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We all know people like that who are not believers, but they're good people.
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They're nicer than some Christians that we know.
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And yet, OK, because they don't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life,
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They are going to bear the brunt of God's wrath and suffer an eternal damnation.
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And one of the questions that I talk about this in my book, actually, is people often
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say, well, yeah, I get that I have problems, some problems, but I'm not that bad.
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But it's not for people that are kind of just normal people like me.
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One is that we underestimate or we don't understand God's holiness.
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Therefore, he abhors all evil, all evil, not just the really big things that we deem super
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And the analogy that I've used before is that the seriousness of a crime, it increases in
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proportion to the person you've sinned against.
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So, for example, if I were to spit on a stranger, that's bad.
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If I were to spit in the face of my child, that's much worse.
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If I were to spit in the face of my wife, that's horrifying.
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But what if I were to spit in the face of God, my creator, who is literally holding my body
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together and giving me every breath that I breathe, I spit in his face, not once, but
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I just kind of ignore him every single day of my life.
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Not just once or twice, but my whole life looks like that.
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And see, nothing of actual acts of disobedience.
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So as we begin to get a higher view of God, we begin to get a higher view or a lower view
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And one experiment I actually use in the book, I think goes back to Francis Schaeffer, is
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I imagine what if you had an app on your phone that could read your mind and then just broadcast
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your thoughts, all your thoughts, all of them at full volume wherever you went and you couldn't
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And the question is, where would you go in that 24 hour period when the app was on on your
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Would you go to out in public, go to the store, go to the movies, go to church, go to the beach?
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And most people would say I would stay in my room with the doors locked and the app underneath
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Well, because we know deep down our thoughts are dark.
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And now think God, we all say, well, God's omnipotent or omniscient.
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OK, if you can't take the truth about your heart for 24 hours and no other human beings
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can, what do you think God feels about that, knowing that all the time for your entire
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life and you're trying to cover it up and tell it's not that bad.
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You know, I think that's one thing that the Puritans have over like modern evangelicals.
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And while there is something that I'm not sure were depicted totally correctly, like I
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think he kind of misses the presence of the Holy Spirit continuously with us.
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But man, it has the same effect on me that Screwtape Letters does in showing me a reflection
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And it kind of rids you of any delusion that, hey, I think I'm actually doing pretty good.
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Even, you know, apart from Christ, I'm still managing this whole thing on my own.
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I don't have any huge glaring sense in my life.
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You couldn't find some like giant act of disobedience that I'm doing on a daily basis.
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But those kinds of books in the same way that scripture does, but also a different way, it
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really kind of uncovers the truth that's underneath that, hey, your pride, your ego, your doubt,
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your little acts of disobedience when you do something without faith, that is an affront
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That's actually something that you have to repent of.
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I think in this day and age, it's really hard for people to understand the ugliness of the
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human heart because we're constantly told, at least women are, that we're perfect the way
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we are and that all we have to do is love ourselves, that we're actually princesses and goddesses
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and all of our issues are society's problems, not our own.
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So it can be really hard, I think, to convince someone, yeah, actually, this is why some humans
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This is why you need the gospel because you're not perfect.
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That's kind of a tough sell today, I would think.
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One of the points I make in the book is that there are only two postures towards God and
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then towards other people, and they're actually illustrated in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee
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So if you say, when you say, well, I am not that bad, I mean, sure, maybe these really bad
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Well, whereas if you look at Jesus' actual historical life, people who flocked to him, the prostitutes
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and tax collectors flocked to him, and the religious people, the Pharisees, did not.
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But the good people who thought they were good, well, I don't need that.
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The funny thing is this, when you admit that I am horrifyingly evil in my heart, you can't
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see it on the outside, but God knows my heart, and he sees my need for a savior.
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When you admit that to God and to yourself, it makes you radically humble, and it makes
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you radically compassionate towards other bad sinners like you, because you know how
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But if you reject that posture and say, well, I'm not that bad, that actually acts to you.
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Now, that guy could be a really immoral prostitute or maybe a greedy CEO.
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But it doesn't matter if you point at someone else and say, I'm not as bad as that guy.
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The tax collector says to God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
00:29:00.940
The other posture is that of the Pharisee who says, I'm not like other men.
00:29:05.220
And that kind of pride is absolutely diabolical.
00:29:08.780
And it's going to ironically lead you to despise other human beings because you think you're
00:29:16.620
I think that we certainly see the effects of kind of casting humility as a vice and pride
00:29:24.600
I see that in so many segments of our society that, yes, people say it's just confidence
00:29:29.160
or it's self-love, but it really is a form of narcissism and pride that we're told that
00:29:33.900
it will fulfill and satisfy us and actually heal our relationships and help us reach our goals.
00:29:40.300
It actually places like a huge burden on us that we cannot carry, and that is to be our own God.
00:29:47.580
I don't know if it was a mere Christianity or screw tape letters, but he said, I'm pretty
00:29:52.080
sure he said, that every vice is really just pride.
00:29:55.700
Every vice is a variation of or a manifestation of pride.
00:30:04.100
You're trying to be your own God, your own Lord and Savior.
00:30:08.960
Let's talk a little bit about creation and the beginning of the universe.
00:30:15.740
I would guess for some people, although I don't know for how many people, for some people,
00:30:23.300
Maybe this is the obstacle that they say, okay, seven-day creation can't have happened,
00:30:30.400
And if, you know, Genesis is just kind of a metaphor, then why do I need to take the rest
00:30:36.280
How do you deal with people who are skeptical about that?
00:30:42.580
Because I think, and this is, I think even, I think every Christian would agree whether
00:30:47.200
You would say, the reason we believe this stuff is because the Bible teaches it.
00:30:56.580
If he's God's son, then we should take all of his views as true.
00:31:02.700
So I'd always point people first to Jesus and say, well, what did Jesus think about scripture,
00:31:09.900
Who is Jesus and start there and then deal with other issues like seven-day creationism
00:31:16.120
In the book, though, I do address the objection of evolution.
00:31:20.340
Just so you know, this is very common today, is that evolution shows we don't need a God.
00:31:25.940
You know, we get, we understand how life came about without any invocation of a creator
00:31:32.600
Richard Dawkins in his book, The God Delusion, invokes this argument centrally as why we don't
00:31:38.720
So in my section on evolution, I just basically remove that objection.
00:31:45.880
I just say, look, for both philosophical and scientific reasons, I think that evolution
00:31:50.620
does not remove the possibility that God existed and created the universe.
00:31:55.340
And I give lots of other discussions of like, well, how does science point us to the need
00:32:01.440
But I tend to just say, look, let's start with more basic questions like, is science
00:32:06.680
opposed to God or does it remove the need of creator without going into the details?
00:32:11.560
Again, this is, I'm trying to squeeze all this into a 300-page book, so I don't want
00:32:17.260
And what about the science of or scientific objections to the resurrection?
00:32:23.540
Obviously, the resurrection is central to our beliefs as Christians.
00:32:28.280
And so what should be the response to people who say, well, I just can't believe that Jesus
00:32:35.360
And I actually point out that, and this is my field, actually.
00:32:39.760
And so I point out that when you say, well, the universe, miracles can't happen.
00:32:43.760
You're thinking in a very Victorian 19th century model of science.
00:32:47.640
The world's like a big clock with gears and things just happen deterministically.
00:32:53.860
And I point out that actually that's an old-fashioned, archaic view of science.
00:32:57.760
Modern physics shows that these laws that are so-called ironclad, inviolable laws of nature
00:33:06.160
And the bottom line is that you can no longer say, even as a scientist, that miracles are
00:33:10.460
impossible because they violate the laws of nature.
00:33:16.820
And when it comes to the resurrection, I think I lay out in the book that there's lots of
00:33:20.760
historical evidence that Jesus really did rise from the dead.
00:33:24.400
Even atheists and non-Christians will agree that, yeah, there actually is some really strong
00:33:30.400
evidence in favor of this explanation, even if they, as atheists, reject it.
00:33:34.940
So it's really, for me, I was really surprised to see atheists admitting, okay, there's something
00:33:39.640
going on here, or certainly non-Christians saying something happened and it's confusing.
00:33:44.820
And then if you have other reasons to take Jesus seriously, look at his teaching, his impact,
00:33:50.400
you look at arguments for God's existence, you have to at least consider the possibility
00:33:54.680
that God did perform a miracle in raising Jesus from the dead.
00:33:58.080
And again, I make that case in my chapter on the resurrection.
00:34:05.180
I mean, some people say, you know, there are other very similar stories to Jesus in ancient
00:34:10.340
religions, all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions.
00:34:14.160
Aren't they all just telling you a way to get to God?
00:34:17.620
Why are Christians so exclusive about their way being right?
00:34:21.980
Yeah, this is actually, this is my favorite section of the book.
00:34:25.980
So I make the pretty surprising claim that the gospel itself, the message that Jesus died
00:34:31.440
for our sins and rose from the dead to rescue us, that that is evidence, the strongest evidence
00:34:41.340
Because we think of apologetics as trying to show people that Christianity is true so that
00:34:47.380
So you start by saying, well, what are your objections?
00:34:49.960
And then later, I'll tell you the gospel, whereas I'm saying the gospel itself is the
00:35:02.340
Imagine I'm playing basketball and I suddenly collapse on the court.
00:35:05.740
People run over and they say, what's wrong with you?
00:35:08.040
And they look at me and they say, oh, you sprained your ankle.
00:35:10.840
Another guy says, no, let me get an ace bandage for my car.
00:35:15.020
But they're all having this friendly discussion of how I can get up and walk it off, basically.
00:35:19.060
But in the midst of that crowd, a woman rushes up and she says, get this man to a hospital
00:35:34.460
And she turns to me and she says, I'm going to tell you two things.
00:35:41.040
And the crowd again is like, you're overreacting.
00:35:44.360
But I tell them, get me to a hospital right now.
00:35:49.740
And the answer is, I know two things the crowd does not know.
00:35:53.700
I know that I can't feel my legs and I can't move.
00:35:56.740
So I have every reason to believe that she is who she claimed to be.
00:36:02.440
I'm claiming that Christianity makes two unique claims about your condition as a human being.
00:36:11.720
And two, you need a rescuer, not just improvement, not just a better law, not just a better government,
00:36:20.240
I'm saying Christianity is unique in making those claims.
00:36:23.020
And then also, I give a long defense that those claims are true.
00:36:27.240
You can know those claims are true just by 10 minutes of self-reflection.
00:36:34.160
You've tried all the self-help books, looking at the mirror and saying you're good enough
00:36:38.020
and smart enough and people like you, that's not your problem.
00:36:43.800
This is a book called God is Not One, written by Stephen Prothero.
00:36:51.260
But he argues in that book that all religions are different, but that Christianity alone offers
00:37:01.480
It's a non-Christian religious studies scholar.
00:37:03.220
He says, just as hitting home runs is the monopoly of one sport, salvation is the monopoly
00:37:11.920
If you see sin as the human predicament and salvation as the solution, then it makes sense
00:37:21.360
And so the gospel itself identifies, like no one else does, our real problem and the real
00:37:28.380
And that makes sense, therefore, to believe that Christianity is uniquely true.
00:37:33.220
For me, it's also, it's helpful to see its opposite as kind of Christianity falls out
00:37:50.360
of the mainstream in the United States, which, you know, God is completely sovereign over that.
00:37:55.780
That doesn't mean any kind of like demise for the global church or anything like that.
00:38:01.280
But as we see it wane in cultural influence, we see a rise in chaos, a rise in confusion,
00:38:17.420
And therefore, the absence of truth is going to lead to all kinds of really deadly and dastardly
00:38:25.240
But what do you say to people who say, no, no, no, see, without Christianity, we're finally
00:38:33.580
People are free to be who they want to be, identify as they want to identify, love who
00:38:39.840
And really, Christianity has just been a tool of oppression and holding people's true selves
00:38:50.340
So one thing I say in the book is that actually, whether or not something is true does not
00:38:57.860
This is a truth that I had to learn as a non-Christian.
00:39:00.000
I had plenty of questions and objections to whether Christianity was good and whether I
00:39:06.520
But as a scientist, I guess I'm trained to think in terms of not what I like, but what
00:39:11.140
You can't, you approach, so I actually, in the book, I say that theology done right is
00:39:16.920
a lot like science done right, in the sense that we can all have our pet theories, our
00:39:21.900
But at the end of the day, as a scientist, you let nature tell you what's true.
00:39:26.000
You don't go to nature and say, this is what has to be true.
00:39:30.180
The same way we approach God and we say, who are you as you actually are, whether or not
00:39:35.560
Now, as for whether or not society is going to be better in the long term by rejecting
00:39:40.380
Christian assumptions and Christian values, et cetera, I would say, no, it's not.
00:39:45.300
And I think we should be confident as Christians that that's the case.
00:39:47.980
And not because, well, there can be societies that function for a long time, for decades on
00:39:52.880
atheism, for example, like the Soviet Union, but eventually they crumble.
00:39:59.560
Christianity is actually true, and eventually the bill will come due.
00:40:09.440
But of course, in the meantime, we don't have to worry about anything except for, can
00:40:15.260
we live a faithful life to God right now where we are?
00:40:19.880
And can we share this good news with our neighbors urgently?
00:40:28.620
They have one life right now, and they need to hear this message.
00:40:37.500
Sometimes I say human nature, depending on what I'm talking about.
00:40:42.040
And all the powers that be can try to push it down.
00:40:45.080
It's either going to pop or it's going to pop back up.
00:40:48.120
And so that's what happens when you try to enact policies or push any kind of idea that
00:40:53.560
And because God created us, all of his rules and parameters and definitions will always be in
00:41:00.760
Once you deny that, it's like you said, the bill is going to come do it at one point.
00:41:05.720
You mentioned sharing this truth with our neighbors.
00:41:10.120
Can you tell us, and I know it depends on the relationship and the person and the circumstances
00:41:15.540
But for someone who's thinking, okay, I've got a spouse or I've got a family member or a
00:41:20.380
friend who is hostile to God, hostile to Christianity, who I know they do not want to talk about this,
00:41:26.540
but I desperately want them to know the gospel.
00:41:29.680
Like, how do you recommend kind of starting that conversation and talking to them about
00:41:37.560
So one really helpful, non-threatening way to approach these conversations is by asking
00:41:47.620
Say, I want to understand what you believe about reality.
00:41:50.880
What's the most important thing to you, whether it's religion or politics, and then inviting
00:41:55.680
them, what's the best book that you'd recommend that I could read, that I could read, and I'd
00:42:02.760
That's a great opening for them to tell you their favorite book, and then you meet and
00:42:10.140
So that, on its own, is an opening for you to talk about really important things.
00:42:13.660
They might share a book about Marxism or a book about Eastern philosophy.
00:42:19.380
But then it gives you an opening to talk about these big questions.
00:42:22.120
And of course, as a Christian, it's going to naturally lead you to talk about what's most
00:42:27.460
Then oftentimes, I've often said, well, can we exchange books?
00:42:30.800
So you give me a book to read, and I'll read it, and we can talk about that.
00:42:37.200
So it's a great—it's very—and people love to give you book recommendations, right?
00:42:40.640
Who doesn't like to say, I'd love to read a book with you and talk about it?
00:42:44.360
And so it's a very easy way to start those conversations.
00:42:47.880
And then, actually, that's how I began getting interested in apologetics.
00:42:51.460
It was an atheist who gave me a book recommendation telling me it's going to totally demolish
00:42:59.900
But that actually started me on this journey of showing people that, no, Christianity actually
00:43:07.600
is based on reason, and it's well-evidenced, and it's true.
00:43:16.180
And if people have specific questions to ask you, either about your book, about apologetics,
00:43:22.440
about sharing the gospel, can they reach out to you and ask those questions?
00:43:27.040
So I'm on Twitter way too much, at Neil Shenvey.
00:43:32.500
Some wiser people than I have gotten off social media, but I'm still there.
00:43:40.580
If you Google my name, Neil Shenvey—I'm like the only Neil Shenvey in the world, I think—and
00:43:45.780
so you Google me, you'll find my website, which has dozens of hundreds of articles, book
00:43:57.180
You're welcome, more than welcome, to email me and ask questions.
00:44:02.840
But yeah, you're welcome to—or DM me on Twitter.
00:44:07.280
And you have answered this in so many ways in our conversation, but I'd like to ask this
00:44:14.760
You have 30 seconds or so—you can fudge on that—to share the gospel.
00:44:31.340
That's a problem because all of us—not just you, all of us—don't live up to God's
00:44:37.520
We've all sinned against him in many ways, in thought, in word, in deed, and the solution
00:44:42.420
is not for us to do better, to be better, to do the work, to get religious, to get a
00:44:49.360
The solution was God had to intervene by sending his son, Jesus Christ, to live the life that
00:44:55.940
we all ought to have lived, to obey God's law, but then to be punished like a lawbreaker,
00:45:02.900
And he raised Jesus from the dead so that he could be our high priest.
00:45:07.800
He could represent us to God purely sinless and spotless.
00:45:12.560
So all of us, no matter how bad you are, you can be forgiven by trusting in Jesus' work
00:45:26.940
I really encourage people to go out and buy Why Believe?
00:45:34.900
I'm sure you can buy it on other outlets at your local bookstore as well.
00:45:40.960
Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.
00:45:50.960
You probably noticed that it looked different and sounded different in the introduction and
00:45:55.040
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00:45:58.800
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00:46:07.700
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