Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 679 ｜ Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths ｜ Guest： Dr. Neil Shenvi

00:00:00.000 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed.

00:00:05.580 Have no fear of them, nor be troubled.

00:00:07.820 But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense

00:00:13.680 to anyone who asks you for a reason, for the hope that is in you.

00:00:18.080 1 Peter 3, 14 through 15.

00:00:22.500 As America is becoming increasingly secular, it is more important than ever for Christians

00:00:27.320 to know what we believe and why.

00:00:30.460 And Dr. Neil Shinvee has just written a book called Why Believe that can help prepare you

00:00:36.680 to give a sound and reasonable answer for Christianity, for the gospel.

00:00:43.760 I think that you will find our conversation about apologetics, about his testimony, and

00:00:48.640 about these resources that he has created for the body of Christ really compelling, really

00:00:53.940 fascinating, as well as really encouraging.

00:00:57.160 So without further ado, here is our friend, Dr. Neil Shinvee.

00:01:10.240 Dr. Shinvee, thank you so much for joining us again.

00:01:12.940 It's been a little bit since you've been on, so could you remind everyone who you are and

00:01:17.000 what you do?

00:01:18.260 I am Dr. Neil Shinvee.

00:01:20.040 I am currently a homeschooling dad of our wonderful four kids, but I have a PhD in theoretical

00:01:26.400 chemistry from UC Berkeley.

00:01:28.820 And yet, what you spend most of your time talking about is not theoretical chemistry.

00:01:33.240 At least, that's not what I follow you for.

00:01:34.860 That's not what you talk about on this podcast.

00:01:37.540 You talk about apologetics.

00:01:39.140 You talk about theology.

00:01:40.880 And so tell us how you kind of got into that realm and why you started talking and writing

00:01:45.500 about the things that you do.

00:01:47.500 Sure.

00:01:48.180 I became a Christian at UC Berkeley as a graduate student through a number of mechanisms, through

00:01:54.300 knowing my future wife, Christina, who was a Christian, through reading C.S. Lewis's book,

00:01:59.000 The Screwtape Letters, and through attending church.

00:02:01.320 I met some really brilliant people there who were evangelical Christians and just got plugged 0.85

00:02:06.680 into the church and became a Christian.

00:02:08.820 And actually, at Berkeley is where I first became interested in apologetics through knowing

00:02:15.700 atheists.

00:02:16.660 The atheist student group was called SANE, Students for a Non-Religious Ethos.

00:02:21.680 So I got to know some of them, and I wanted to share the gospel with them and with my other

00:02:26.180 very scholarly intellectual colleagues in the departments of chemistry and physics.

00:02:32.340 Yeah.

00:02:32.820 So tell us then how you came to write what you do, though, in Shinvi Apologetics, and you

00:02:41.460 talk about things that people consider political, although you don't make them political, like

00:02:46.300 critical race theory and intersectionality.

00:02:49.600 So tell us how you kind of came upon that.

00:02:52.620 Well, yeah.

00:02:52.960 For the beginning of my Christian life, I was very focused on the gospel.

00:02:57.260 I didn't pay much attention to politics or the culture wars.

00:03:00.640 I just wanted to share the gospel with people.

00:03:03.560 And I actually wrote this book years ago, had the first draft finished, and my colleague,

00:03:09.820 Dr. Pat Sawyer, who I've collaborated with on a number of issues related to critical theory,

00:03:14.620 but he looked at my book and said, this is great.

00:03:16.620 Let me shop it out to some publishers.

00:03:19.640 But I'd finished the book and was looking around for other areas that I could research

00:03:25.260 and study.

00:03:25.820 And that's how I got involved in studying critical theory and reading a lot of books about critical

00:03:32.780 theory, critical race theory, queer theory, and so forth, which is how I've kind of become

00:03:36.840 more well-known publicly.

00:03:38.340 I gotcha.

00:03:39.360 And you said that you became a Christian at UC Berkeley, not what many people think of when

00:03:44.620 they think of UC Berkeley, someone actually becoming a Christian.

00:03:47.920 I think often people think of people going to college, but especially somewhere like UC

00:03:52.020 Berkeley and abandoning their faith or kind of abandoning the foundation that was laid

00:03:57.280 for them by their parents.

00:03:58.820 But what was your journey like leading up to UC Berkeley?

00:04:02.540 Were you raised in any sort of Christian home?

00:04:06.240 No, not really.

00:04:06.980 My parents are wonderful people, very moral people, but they were not religious.

00:04:11.740 And so when I went to college, I went to Princeton, and I would have considered myself spiritual

00:04:17.180 but not religious.

00:04:18.120 I probably would have called myself a Christian, but just because, you know, I'm in America.

00:04:22.500 And so I'm a Christian, right?

00:04:24.660 I believed in God, but I had almost no understanding of Christian theology.

00:04:30.320 So at Princeton, I was actually, as a freshman, I got a copy of the Screwtape Letters, C.S.

00:04:37.160 Lewis's wonderful book.

00:04:38.320 It's a fictional work from a book table that was handing out free copies.

00:04:43.040 And they had the Bible.

00:04:44.080 It was Christian.

00:04:44.660 It was Campus Created for Christ was handing out the books.

00:04:48.360 And they had the Bible.

00:04:49.460 They had a bunch of C.S.

00:04:50.480 Lewis's works.

00:04:51.280 And I grabbed the free C.S.

00:04:53.040 Lewis books, and I just skipped the Bible.

00:04:54.960 I was like, forget it.

00:04:55.720 I'm not going to read that.

00:04:56.920 But Lewis's work was fascinating because I read it probably 10 to 20 times as a non-Christian

00:05:02.840 because it was so insightful.

00:05:05.580 I thought to myself, how does this guy know what's going on in my head?

00:05:09.340 How does he understand the pride, the temptations, the posturing, the insecurity?

00:05:15.520 And that really set the seeds for my eventual conversion.

00:05:19.420 And that happened again at Berkeley when basically I just heard the gospel and realized I couldn't

00:05:23.920 keep avoiding it.

00:05:25.420 Yeah.

00:05:25.520 If this was true, objectively true for everyone, then I had to simply accept it, even if I didn't

00:05:32.460 like it.

00:05:33.220 There were lots of questions I had about hell and God's wrath and all these things I didn't

00:05:37.200 like.

00:05:37.860 But it came down to, is it true or false?

00:05:41.220 And so that's how I basically had to humble myself and say, you know, I thought I knew all

00:05:44.800 about God and spiritual things.

00:05:46.420 But really, I'm like a little child.

00:05:48.440 I need to be led.

00:05:49.560 And God led me to Jesus.

00:05:51.180 Yeah.

00:05:51.400 Wow.

00:05:52.040 There's so many things in your answer that I would like to unpack.

00:05:55.100 But one thing that I was thinking of is you said it was Campus Crusade for Christ and

00:05:59.300 that they just had these free books.

00:06:01.140 I'm sure that people who have kind of manned that book table or who have put those free

00:06:06.240 books on a table, they often just think, okay, this is something that I'm doing.

00:06:10.380 Is it really going to make a difference?

00:06:11.820 Is it really that important?

00:06:13.860 Little things that Christians do on a daily basis that maybe you're hoping will be consequential 1.00

00:06:19.500 and share the gospel, but you're not really sure how much it's actually doing.

00:06:23.700 Something as simple as putting free C.S. Lewis books on a table, God used that to lead you

00:06:30.240 to the gospel, to lead you to Christ.

00:06:33.000 And now you have become an apologist.

00:06:35.640 Now you have an impact on so many other people because some campus minister decided that they

00:06:42.100 were going to put free books on a table, something that seemed so commonplace and so minimal.

00:06:48.240 And yet God has used it to make a huge impact.

00:06:51.080 So as much as your answer, I think, can encourage non-Christians, also it should encourage Christians. 0.90

00:06:57.180 You never know what your small step of faith, what your seemingly small act of obedience

00:07:05.100 in the way of glorifying the Lord can do for the kingdom of God by his power.

00:07:11.160 I mean, God is a multiplier.

00:07:12.580 And that's what I'm thinking when I'm thinking of your story.

00:07:15.160 So anyway, that's awesome.

00:07:16.660 Amen. Absolutely.

00:07:17.420 You know, I actually gave out books when I was a postdoc at Yale.

00:07:21.000 I was part of a book table through Campus Crusade, giving out free books.

00:07:26.000 And I shared my own story and said, never, when you see these people grab your book, walk

00:07:29.960 away, you never see them again.

00:07:31.560 Never feel hopeless.

00:07:33.340 Never feel like, oh, God's not going to use that.

00:07:35.240 It's like every single act of obedience is important.

00:07:37.980 I was at Berkeley, actually.

00:07:39.040 I would give out free Bibles.

00:07:41.100 And I kind of got discouraged.

00:07:42.680 I was like, I'm just handing out these free Bibles.

00:07:44.360 They're probably going to throw in the trash.

00:07:46.080 But in the front cover, the inscription of that Bible that I had was a passage from Isaiah

00:07:50.300 that said, the words that come out of my mouth will not return to me void.

00:07:54.960 I said, that's exactly correct.

00:07:57.000 I'm going to give these out, trusting that God will use them.

00:07:59.600 And he does.

00:08:00.680 Yes.

00:08:01.180 You know, your testimony kind of reminds me of one part.

00:08:04.100 If you're familiar with Christopher Yuan, he has written a lot of wonderful books.

00:08:10.920 I think his book about his testimony is out of a far country that he wrote with his mom.

00:08:15.620 He has a book called Holy Sexuality.

00:08:17.080 But he talks about how he was in prison and he was laying on the cot in his prison cell.

00:08:21.620 And he looked up and he saw a verse and it was Jeremiah 29, 11.

00:08:26.940 Now, again, this is just an instance of someone doing something, maybe mindlessly, when they

00:08:31.580 were writing Jeremiah 29, 11, who knows why someone who was in that prison cell previously

00:08:36.900 decided to write that Bible verse.

00:08:38.840 And wow, God used that to then kind of be the starting point to transform someone's life

00:08:43.560 that has then been used to transform so many other people's lives.

00:08:47.200 And so I just love that about God.

00:08:48.860 I love that about the gospel.

00:08:50.620 Tell us a little bit more about how you came to write this book and why this book is distinct

00:08:59.080 from your perspective, from other apologetics books out there.

00:09:04.560 Sure.

00:09:05.040 Basically, it was the fact that I'm cheap.

00:09:07.280 So I was giving away free copies of Tim Keller's Reason for God at Yale and it got expensive.

00:09:12.940 I was like, I can't keep buying these and I just can't afford it.

00:09:15.700 I'm a postdoc.

00:09:16.740 And so I was encouraged over the years by friends and by elders at my church to write my

00:09:20.520 own book.

00:09:21.660 And what's distinctive?

00:09:23.100 I mean, there are lots of great apologetics books out there.

00:09:26.060 But I think five things I wanted to capture with my book, I wanted it to be accessible

00:09:30.520 so there's no technical jargon.

00:09:33.240 I wanted to use a lot of analogies.

00:09:36.040 I was a theoretical chemist and part of my job was trying to think in new, simplified ways

00:09:40.880 about complex topics.

00:09:42.440 So a lot of illustrations, not pictures, but ways of thinking about issues like morality,

00:09:49.180 God's existence, and things like that that I think are helpful and accessible to everybody.

00:09:53.960 But two, I wanted it to be intellectual.

00:09:56.940 So there are a lot of good books out there that are written, I think, I don't want to

00:10:00.880 say too simplistically, but they're books that I couldn't hand to my professors at university.

00:10:07.420 Because, for example, a great example of this is Jim Wallace's book, Cold Case Christianity.

00:10:13.060 So I really enjoyed that book and I thought it was very helpful, but it contains hand-drawn

00:10:18.420 cartoon illustrations.

00:10:19.700 And if I were to hand that to an Ivy League professor, they would just look at it and

00:10:24.000 immediately write it off.

00:10:25.600 Whereas my book is, I interact very heavily with atheist scholars.

00:10:30.140 It has footnotes.

00:10:31.260 There's a lot of stuff that gives it intellectual heft.

00:10:34.040 Third thing, I wanted to be very focused on Christianity.

00:10:38.320 I'm not interested in convincing people that just some kind of vague God force exists.

00:10:44.140 I wanted to aim at showing that Christianity particularly is true.

00:10:47.500 And then fourth, it's comprehensive.

00:10:50.140 I treat things like, who is Jesus?

00:10:52.660 Was he raised from the dead?

00:10:53.900 Is there evidence of that?

00:10:54.900 Does God exist?

00:10:56.140 I tackle objections to Christianity like, can miracles occur?

00:10:59.900 What about the problem of evil and suffering?

00:11:01.780 How could a good God allow evil?

00:11:03.800 And I talk about the gospel itself.

00:11:05.540 It's been a long time just explaining to people what does Christianity at its core teach

00:11:10.400 about our sin and need for salvation.

00:11:12.660 And then finally, number five, a lot of people said my scientific background shows in writing

00:11:18.760 this book, not because it's full of science, because it's very systematic and logical.

00:11:23.420 I make lists of five bullet points, for example, like I just gave.

00:11:27.180 And it shows through in that sort of training from a science background is evident, I think,

00:11:32.280 in my writing based on reader reviews.

00:11:34.760 Yes.

00:11:34.980 So what audience did you have in mind when you were writing this book?

00:11:40.480 So the number one audience I had in mind, I wrote this book for Christian students going

00:11:47.600 to college who could hand this book to their professors and not feel intimidated.

00:11:53.240 So the kind of book that they can not just hand on to other students, that'd be great,

00:11:56.060 but to their professors and feel like this is a solid work.

00:12:00.060 Um, but that said, if you look at, uh, who, who can benefit, I think, and understand the

00:12:05.480 book, one of the endorsements is from Troy Van Voorhees, who's a professor of theoretical

00:12:09.920 chemistry at MIT.

00:12:11.020 So extremely high level academic, but the book's also being read by my friend, Stacey Chambers,

00:12:16.460 who's a stay at home mom of four boys.

00:12:19.280 Uh, and it's also, I taught this class.

00:12:22.360 It was a three day apologetics bootcamp to about a hundred homeschooling students, ages 11

00:12:28.440 through 18, uh, and it was based on this book's material.

00:12:32.940 And the feedback I got was very positive.

00:12:35.280 They loved the course.

00:12:36.500 A couple of parents were sitting in and they said it was a highlight of the kid's summer.

00:12:40.160 Oh, that's awesome.

00:12:41.620 Yeah.

00:12:41.900 So I really, I really aim to make it both sophisticated, but also accessible to everybody.

00:12:48.380 So it's not the kind of thing you're going to read it and say, I can't make sense of

00:12:51.220 this.

00:12:51.960 Yeah.

00:12:52.520 And, and your experience in kind of talking to the people who have engaged with your work,

00:12:57.640 or I guess just engage with people in general, what would you say is the most difficult obstacle

00:13:02.820 or the most difficult question that skeptics or even believers have when it comes to the

00:13:08.700 existence and the character of God?

00:13:11.420 I think the biggest objection that I've heard and that I see both actually among, you know,

00:13:17.160 intellectuals and philosophers and among common people is the problem of evil.

00:13:21.580 The question is how could a good God allow evil to exist?

00:13:26.200 How is that compatible?

00:13:28.340 And in the book, again, I gave numerous responses, many of which are very familiar to people who've

00:13:33.960 studied the philosophical literature on this topic.

00:13:36.880 But I also point out, this is a personal issue as well.

00:13:39.980 People experience evil in their lives.

00:13:42.640 So you can't merely give them an intellectual answer.

00:13:45.420 You have to also give them an answer that speaks to their own lives.

00:13:48.780 So in the book, I do that.

00:13:50.460 And I'll give just two responses for the first one, intellectual, which is that, you know,

00:13:56.020 the universe exists to display God's glory.

00:13:58.980 That is why God created the, created everything.

00:14:01.920 And well, how does evil, although it's evil and God hates it, but it actually does in the

00:14:07.020 end further and promote God's glory in two ways.

00:14:10.040 One, the fact that God allows sin in the world allows him to demonstrate his love and mercy

00:14:18.080 and tenderness in forgiving sinners, and it allows him to display his justice in punishing

00:14:23.860 sin.

00:14:24.840 So unless, if God had not allowed sin, he would not, logically, there'd be no way for him to

00:14:29.940 display his glory in forgiving sinners or in punish, in his glory in punishing him in his

00:14:34.580 holiness.

00:14:34.900 So that's one, that's a logical answer, but I think experientially, how do you trust a 0.98

00:14:41.380 God who allows sin and suffering and evil?

00:14:43.980 That's where I point to the cross because Christianity alone says God in the person of

00:14:49.100 his son, let all of that evil and suffering fall on him.

00:14:53.780 That's what we deserved.

00:14:55.020 God took and absorbed for us.

00:14:57.120 And so in the midst of my personal suffering, I can look to God's son and say, he knows what

00:15:02.820 this is like.

00:15:03.560 He's experienced sin and suffering and evil.

00:15:06.080 He hasn't committed it, but he's experienced the results of it.

00:15:08.860 And whatever he's doing in the universe, I can trust this God who suffered in my place.

00:15:13.480 You know, I think that especially on a logical level, I can understand kind of in general,

00:15:30.480 the existence of evil that, okay, or sorrow or suffering or sickness that, okay, we have cancer

00:15:37.100 and we have birth defects and we have miscarriages and we have sadness and rejection and breakups

00:15:41.740 and all that stuff because of sin, because we live in a fallen world.

00:15:45.420 I think it's, which I think this is something that everyone has experienced in this like

00:15:50.080 24 minute news cycle that we live in.

00:15:53.140 It's, I think the very specific acts of like abuse and evil towards the most vulnerable

00:15:59.160 that I, as a believer who cognitively understands everything that you're saying, I struggle so,

00:16:06.000 so much with those specific acts of evil.

00:16:10.340 Like, you know, and maybe this is sinful of me to even doubt or question in this way, but

00:16:14.540 to say, okay, I understand why some maybe evil happens, but did God really need to allow that

00:16:20.880 child to suffer that abuse or that person to endure that kind of evil, that kind of malice,

00:16:26.480 that kind of suffering?

00:16:27.880 Like, where is the glory in that?

00:16:30.580 I think a lot of people ask that for themselves, whatever trauma they've endured, but they also

00:16:35.180 ask it on behalf of other people.

00:16:37.500 I mean, a grand example is the specific evil and suffering of, you know, the Holocaust. 0.88

00:16:42.240 And so, you know, I think some people say, okay, if this all good God would allow that,

00:16:47.880 and then they think of themselves and they say, well, I'm not all good, but I would never

00:16:51.720 allow that.

00:16:52.740 Like, I would never allow my child to go through cancer if I had the choice.

00:16:56.820 I would never allow my child to suffer in that way if I had the choice.

00:17:00.080 And you're telling me that this God is all good and that he loves me more than I love my

00:17:04.840 children.

00:17:05.400 How does that make sense?

00:17:07.160 So I don't know.

00:17:08.020 I think that's something that a lot of people wrestle with.

00:17:10.280 What do you think?

00:17:11.260 I agree.

00:17:12.020 And one of the things I say in the book, I say many things, how many points.

00:17:15.820 Another point I make is that the Christian perspective on suffering has to be framed by

00:17:20.780 eternity.

00:17:22.040 We tend, even Christians who are obviously very much concerned with eternal matters, we

00:17:27.360 tend to think, well, but this life is so much more immediate to us.

00:17:31.080 I'm suffering right now.

00:17:32.360 What about the things that happen right now?

00:17:33.780 And I agree.

00:17:34.500 I'm not trying to minimize that.

00:17:35.960 You have to frame everything in terms of eternity.

00:17:38.300 We're thinking, we're talking millions, billions, you know, immeasurable years in the future.

00:17:44.060 You will still be alive.

00:17:45.460 So the point is, even if you can't explain that some act or event of suffering right now,

00:17:52.100 how could that happen?

00:17:53.320 You say, well, wait a minute.

00:17:54.140 Am I putting this in the larger story of God's purposes that will go on forever?

00:17:58.520 And even, and this is very biblical.

00:18:01.140 Paul talks about terrible suffering that he endured in Corinthians.

00:18:04.900 And he talks about how all of that, all of the suffering will seem like nothing in light

00:18:10.680 of eternity.

00:18:11.820 And he was beaten, shipwrecked, stoned, left for dead, abandoned by his friends.

00:18:16.340 And he's saying all of that is going to be a drop in the ocean of God's love and forgiveness

00:18:22.580 that we experience forever.

00:18:24.580 So that's one answer.

00:18:25.580 The other answer, I use this illustration elsewhere, imagine that you're in World War

00:18:29.720 II in the Pacific, there's a war going on, and you're on an aircraft carrier with an

00:18:35.660 admiral, and you get a radio call, SOS distress call from a ship out in the Pacific, and it

00:18:42.320 says, we're under attack, we're under fire.

00:18:44.000 If you don't do something right now and intervene, we're going to sink, we're all going to die.

00:18:47.880 And the admiral hears the call come in and does nothing.

00:18:50.100 And you're a reporter.

00:18:50.860 And you go to the admiral, like, well, what's going on?

00:18:52.720 You hear the call, you enact.

00:18:54.420 The admiral says nothing.

00:18:55.740 The call comes in again, we're under fire, we're under fire, we need someone to send

00:18:59.160 help.

00:18:59.840 And the admiral does nothing.

00:19:00.920 And you start berating him, you're like, what's wrong with you?

00:19:03.500 Send help.

00:19:04.260 You can do it.

00:19:05.080 You have the web manpower.

00:19:06.700 It saves the ship.

00:19:08.000 And he says nothing.

00:19:08.900 And finally, his second companion pulls you aside, and he says, the admiral's son is the

00:19:14.900 captain of that ship.

00:19:16.800 Now, what do you immediately know?

00:19:18.160 You don't know why he's not responding.

00:19:19.920 You don't know his overall plan.

00:19:21.500 One thing, it's not apathy.

00:19:24.520 For whatever reason, he's chosen to allow this suffering to happen.

00:19:27.900 It's not because he doesn't care.

00:19:29.020 His son's on that ship.

00:19:30.720 Well, Christians say, we don't know why God allows evil and suffering, but his son was 0.98

00:19:35.520 on the ship.

00:19:36.320 And he suffered.

00:19:37.360 And God, in the end, he intervened by resurrecting him, but he allowed him to suffer in terrible

00:19:42.380 ways.

00:19:43.020 So we can trust that God and say, hey, I don't know what God's plans are.

00:19:47.060 I know it's not apathy.

00:19:48.980 Yes.

00:19:49.560 I say a lot that God is not, he's not sitting on his hands and saying, I can't believe that

00:19:55.880 this is happening, or I didn't see that coming.

00:19:58.080 He's not surprised or thrown off.

00:19:59.740 And one thing that comforts me about God that I'm sure in your experience, you've actually

00:20:04.040 seen in some cases is an obstacle to people accepting or believing that the gospel is true.

00:20:10.320 But it comforts me to know that God is also a God of wrath, that he hates injustice, and

00:20:17.440 that he actually promises to take care of evil, and that he actually promises to do away with

00:20:24.440 it, that he is going to avenge innocent blood, that one day, like he will defeat evil, he will

00:20:30.600 defeat evildoers, he will defeat Satan.

00:20:33.380 There is actually like punishment coming in the form of his wrath.

00:20:38.300 And so it might seem like, as you said, it might seem like if we're just focused on the

00:20:42.740 here and the now that he's doing nothing, but his eternal plan of redemption is always

00:20:47.420 going off without a hitch, and his wrath is kindling against evil.

00:20:52.700 And so one day, like he will take care of all the evil, all of the injustice that we're

00:20:58.000 talking about, and it will be no more.

00:21:00.120 So it's not that he's apathetic toward it, right?

00:21:03.020 It's not that he doesn't care.

00:21:04.380 He actually is going to do something about all of it one day.

00:21:10.020 Right.

00:21:10.480 The Bible says, actually, it's his patience.

00:21:12.980 Because in 2 Peter, it said Peter at the time, thousands of years ago, people were saying,

00:21:17.200 where is this punishment?

00:21:18.360 Where's the second judgment?

00:21:19.900 Where is it happening?

00:21:21.400 And Peter says, you don't understand, he's being patient, giving you a chance to repent.

00:21:25.500 Yeah.

00:21:25.800 Because you call down judgment.

00:21:27.040 Well, that's going to fall on you too, if you're not repentant.

00:21:29.780 So the point is, he's delaying his judgment so that you have a chance to turn and trust

00:21:34.920 in him and be saved.

00:21:36.640 And what do you say to those who say, OK, I understand he has to punish the Hitlers of

00:21:42.320 the world.

00:21:42.880 He has to punish the really evil people, the people that, you know, hurt others, that exploit 0.65

00:21:48.520 people, that are corrupt.

00:21:50.200 We get that.

00:21:51.000 But why do the people who, like you mentioned, your parents are very moral people.

00:21:57.460 We all know people like that who are not believers, but they're good people.

00:22:00.700 They're nicer than some Christians that we know.

00:22:02.860 They've never heard a fly.

00:22:04.160 They have wonderful lives.

00:22:05.360 We're friends with them.

00:22:07.300 And yet, OK, because they don't believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life,

00:22:11.940 they're going to suffer forever in eternity.

00:22:15.580 They are going to bear the brunt of God's wrath and suffer an eternal damnation.

00:22:20.960 How can a loving and just God do that?

00:22:23.680 Right.

00:22:24.180 And one of the questions that I talk about this in my book, actually, is people often

00:22:27.380 say, well, yeah, I get that I have problems, some problems, but I'm not that bad.

00:22:33.580 Right.

00:22:33.920 Yeah.

00:22:34.200 I don't need a salvation from a rescue.

00:22:37.560 That's for bad, really bad people.

00:22:39.780 But it's not for people that are kind of just normal people like me.

00:22:43.500 And I say several things.

00:22:44.420 One is that we underestimate or we don't understand God's holiness.

00:22:48.940 What that means is his complete perfection.

00:22:50.840 Therefore, he abhors all evil, all evil, not just the really big things that we deem super

00:22:58.340 bad, but all evil.

00:23:00.580 And the analogy that I've used before is that the seriousness of a crime, it increases in

00:23:06.640 proportion to the person you've sinned against.

00:23:08.840 So, for example, if I were to spit on a stranger, that's bad.

00:23:13.520 That's that's evil.

00:23:15.400 If I were to spit in the face of my child, that's much worse.

00:23:20.940 Right. 0.92

00:23:21.460 If I were to spit in the face of my wife, that's horrifying. 0.96

00:23:25.560 But what if I were to spit in the face of God, my creator, who is literally holding my body

00:23:32.440 together and giving me every breath that I breathe, I spit in his face, not once, but

00:23:36.880 I just kind of ignore him every single day of my life.

00:23:39.500 And I just don't bother with him.

00:23:40.880 I don't care about his commands.

00:23:43.360 I don't worship him.

00:23:44.560 I just what is that kind of sin?

00:23:47.140 Not just once or twice, but my whole life looks like that.

00:23:50.600 And see, nothing of actual acts of disobedience.

00:23:53.540 So as we begin to get a higher view of God, we begin to get a higher view or a lower view

00:24:00.380 of our own sinfulness.

00:24:01.820 We really are that bad.

00:24:03.060 And one experiment I actually use in the book, I think goes back to Francis Schaeffer, is

00:24:07.240 I imagine what if you had an app on your phone that could read your mind and then just broadcast

00:24:14.240 your thoughts, all your thoughts, all of them at full volume wherever you went and you couldn't

00:24:19.600 turn the app off.

00:24:20.900 And the question is, where would you go in that 24 hour period when the app was on on your

00:24:25.780 phone?

00:24:26.040 Would you go to out in public, go to the store, go to the movies, go to church, go to the beach?

00:24:31.220 And most people would say I would stay in my room with the doors locked and the app underneath

00:24:36.520 my pillow while I'm sitting on it.

00:24:38.580 Now, why?

00:24:39.840 Well, because we know deep down our thoughts are dark.

00:24:44.460 We have thoughts that we're ashamed of.

00:24:47.460 And now think God, we all say, well, God's omnipotent or omniscient.

00:24:52.460 He knows everything he can read.

00:24:54.040 OK, if you can't take the truth about your heart for 24 hours and no other human beings

00:25:00.760 can, what do you think God feels about that, knowing that all the time for your entire

00:25:06.560 life and you're trying to cover it up and tell it's not that bad.

00:25:09.380 It is that bad.

00:25:10.280 And you know it deep down, you know it.

00:25:11.860 You know, I think that's one thing that the Puritans have over like modern evangelicals. 0.99

00:25:30.720 I recently reread Pilgrim's Progress.

00:25:34.340 And while there is something that I'm not sure were depicted totally correctly, like I

00:25:39.120 think he kind of misses the presence of the Holy Spirit continuously with us.

00:25:43.040 But man, it has the same effect on me that Screwtape Letters does in showing me a reflection

00:25:49.380 of the ugliness of my sin.

00:25:52.980 And it kind of rids you of any delusion that, hey, I think I'm actually doing pretty good.

00:25:58.760 Even, you know, apart from Christ, I'm still managing this whole thing on my own.

00:26:02.320 I don't have any huge glaring sense in my life.

00:26:05.180 You couldn't find some like giant act of disobedience that I'm doing on a daily basis.

00:26:11.340 But those kinds of books in the same way that scripture does, but also a different way, it

00:26:16.200 really kind of uncovers the truth that's underneath that, hey, your pride, your ego, your doubt,

00:26:25.740 your little acts of disobedience when you do something without faith, that is an affront

00:26:30.880 to God.

00:26:32.420 And that is actually an example of stumbling.

00:26:36.760 That's not something that you can ignore.

00:26:38.580 That's actually something that you have to repent of.

00:26:42.040 I think in this day and age, it's really hard for people to understand the ugliness of the

00:26:48.040 human heart because we're constantly told, at least women are, that we're perfect the way 0.99

00:26:52.860 we are and that all we have to do is love ourselves, that we're actually princesses and goddesses

00:26:58.340 and all of our issues are society's problems, not our own.

00:27:03.440 So it can be really hard, I think, to convince someone, yeah, actually, this is why some humans

00:27:10.420 are deserving of hell.

00:27:11.700 This is why you need the gospel because you're not perfect.

00:27:15.640 That's kind of a tough sell today, I would think.

00:27:18.140 One of the points I make in the book is that there are only two postures towards God and

00:27:24.040 then towards other people, and they're actually illustrated in Jesus' parable of the Pharisee

00:27:28.980 and the tax collector in Luke 18.

00:27:31.060 So if you say, when you say, well, I am not that bad, I mean, sure, maybe these really bad

00:27:37.140 people need Jesus, but not me.

00:27:39.660 Well, whereas if you look at Jesus' actual historical life, people who flocked to him, the prostitutes 1.00

00:27:46.540 and tax collectors flocked to him, and the religious people, the Pharisees, did not. 0.70

00:27:50.920 Why?

00:27:51.700 Because they knew they were messed up.

00:27:54.420 There was no doubt.

00:27:55.300 They were like, I am a disaster.

00:27:56.860 I need rescue.

00:27:58.280 But the good people who thought they were good, well, I don't need that.

00:28:03.540 The funny thing is this, when you admit that I am horrifyingly evil in my heart, you can't

00:28:10.360 see it on the outside, but God knows my heart, and he sees my need for a savior.

00:28:14.280 When you admit that to God and to yourself, it makes you radically humble, and it makes

00:28:20.080 you radically compassionate towards other bad sinners like you, because you know how

00:28:25.140 bad you are. 0.55

00:28:26.100 But if you reject that posture and say, well, I'm not that bad, that actually acts to you.

00:28:31.720 You distance yourself.

00:28:32.660 I'm not like that guy. 1.00

00:28:34.600 Now, that guy could be a really immoral prostitute or maybe a greedy CEO. 0.99

00:28:41.340 But it doesn't matter if you point at someone else and say, I'm not as bad as that guy. 1.00

00:28:47.540 That's pride.

00:28:49.500 That's the sin of self-righteousness.

00:28:51.660 So there's only one or two postures.

00:28:52.960 Either I am just as bad as everyone else.

00:28:55.140 The tax collector says to God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

00:28:58.740 And Jesus says he goes home justified.

00:29:00.940 The other posture is that of the Pharisee who says, I'm not like other men.

00:29:05.220 And that kind of pride is absolutely diabolical.

00:29:08.780 And it's going to ironically lead you to despise other human beings because you think you're

00:29:13.460 better than some of them.

00:29:15.000 Yeah, that's so interesting.

00:29:16.620 I think that we certainly see the effects of kind of casting humility as a vice and pride

00:29:23.980 as a virtue.

00:29:24.600 I see that in so many segments of our society that, yes, people say it's just confidence

00:29:29.160 or it's self-love, but it really is a form of narcissism and pride that we're told that

00:29:33.900 it will fulfill and satisfy us and actually heal our relationships and help us reach our goals.

00:29:38.700 Actually, it makes us really miserable.

00:29:40.300 It actually places like a huge burden on us that we cannot carry, and that is to be our own God.

00:29:46.520 I think it was C.S. Lewis.

00:29:47.580 I don't know if it was a mere Christianity or screw tape letters, but he said, I'm pretty

00:29:52.080 sure he said, that every vice is really just pride.

00:29:55.700 Every vice is a variation of or a manifestation of pride.

00:30:02.560 And I think that's true.

00:30:04.100 You're trying to be your own God, your own Lord and Savior.

00:30:07.200 Yeah.

00:30:07.680 Yeah.

00:30:08.440 Okay.

00:30:08.960 Let's talk a little bit about creation and the beginning of the universe.

00:30:15.740 I would guess for some people, although I don't know for how many people, for some people,

00:30:21.700 maybe this is the stumbling block.

00:30:23.300 Maybe this is the obstacle that they say, okay, seven-day creation can't have happened,

00:30:29.180 not realistic.

00:30:30.400 And if, you know, Genesis is just kind of a metaphor, then why do I need to take the rest

00:30:34.820 of the Bible seriously?

00:30:36.280 How do you deal with people who are skeptical about that?

00:30:39.400 Well, two things.

00:30:40.300 I always point people to Jesus first, right?

00:30:42.580 Because I think, and this is, I think even, I think every Christian would agree whether

00:30:45.420 you're a young earth creationist or not.

00:30:47.200 You would say, the reason we believe this stuff is because the Bible teaches it.

00:30:50.560 Well, why believe the Bible?

00:30:51.500 Because Jesus believed it.

00:30:52.780 Why believe Jesus was right?

00:30:54.100 Well, there you go.

00:30:55.040 Well, who is Jesus?

00:30:56.580 If he's God's son, then we should take all of his views as true.

00:31:00.780 He's God incarnate.

00:31:02.700 So I'd always point people first to Jesus and say, well, what did Jesus think about scripture,

00:31:08.180 about reality as a whole?

00:31:09.900 Who is Jesus and start there and then deal with other issues like seven-day creationism

00:31:14.860 later?

00:31:16.120 In the book, though, I do address the objection of evolution.

00:31:20.340 Just so you know, this is very common today, is that evolution shows we don't need a God.

00:31:25.940 You know, we get, we understand how life came about without any invocation of a creator

00:31:30.580 and therefore we're done with God.

00:31:32.600 Richard Dawkins in his book, The God Delusion, invokes this argument centrally as why we don't

00:31:37.260 need, why God doesn't exist, actually.

00:31:38.720 So in my section on evolution, I just basically remove that objection.

00:31:43.920 I don't get into the details of creation.

00:31:45.880 I just say, look, for both philosophical and scientific reasons, I think that evolution

00:31:50.620 does not remove the possibility that God existed and created the universe.

00:31:55.340 And I give lots of other discussions of like, well, how does science point us to the need

00:31:59.400 for a creator?

00:32:00.580 I'll turn the book as well.

00:32:01.440 But I tend to just say, look, let's start with more basic questions like, is science

00:32:06.680 opposed to God or does it remove the need of creator without going into the details?

00:32:11.560 Again, this is, I'm trying to squeeze all this into a 300-page book, so I don't want

00:32:14.980 to get too into the weeds in this stuff.

00:32:17.060 Yeah.

00:32:17.260 And what about the science of or scientific objections to the resurrection?

00:32:23.540 Obviously, the resurrection is central to our beliefs as Christians.

00:32:28.280 And so what should be the response to people who say, well, I just can't believe that Jesus

00:32:33.320 rose from the dead?

00:32:34.200 Right.

00:32:35.360 And I actually point out that, and this is my field, actually.

00:32:37.860 So my specialization was quantum mechanics.

00:32:39.760 And so I point out that when you say, well, the universe, miracles can't happen.

00:32:43.760 You're thinking in a very Victorian 19th century model of science.

00:32:47.640 The world's like a big clock with gears and things just happen deterministically.

00:32:53.860 And I point out that actually that's an old-fashioned, archaic view of science.

00:32:57.760 Modern physics shows that these laws that are so-called ironclad, inviolable laws of nature

00:33:03.180 are actually very weird.

00:33:06.160 And the bottom line is that you can no longer say, even as a scientist, that miracles are

00:33:10.460 impossible because they violate the laws of nature.

00:33:14.940 It's much more complicated than that.

00:33:16.820 And when it comes to the resurrection, I think I lay out in the book that there's lots of

00:33:20.760 historical evidence that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

00:33:24.400 Even atheists and non-Christians will agree that, yeah, there actually is some really strong

00:33:30.400 evidence in favor of this explanation, even if they, as atheists, reject it.

00:33:34.940 So it's really, for me, I was really surprised to see atheists admitting, okay, there's something 1.00

00:33:39.640 going on here, or certainly non-Christians saying something happened and it's confusing.

00:33:44.820 And then if you have other reasons to take Jesus seriously, look at his teaching, his impact,

00:33:50.400 you look at arguments for God's existence, you have to at least consider the possibility

00:33:54.680 that God did perform a miracle in raising Jesus from the dead.

00:33:58.080 And again, I make that case in my chapter on the resurrection.

00:34:02.780 And why Christianity?

00:34:05.180 I mean, some people say, you know, there are other very similar stories to Jesus in ancient

00:34:10.340 religions, all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions.

00:34:14.160 Aren't they all just telling you a way to get to God?

00:34:17.620 Why are Christians so exclusive about their way being right? 1.00

00:34:21.980 Yeah, this is actually, this is my favorite section of the book.

00:34:24.400 It's called The Argument from the Gospel.

00:34:25.980 So I make the pretty surprising claim that the gospel itself, the message that Jesus died

00:34:31.440 for our sins and rose from the dead to rescue us, that that is evidence, the strongest evidence

00:34:36.580 that Christianity is actually true.

00:34:39.000 And that Christians might be like, wait, what? 1.00

00:34:41.340 Because we think of apologetics as trying to show people that Christianity is true so that

00:34:45.660 then you can share the gospel.

00:34:47.380 So you start by saying, well, what are your objections?

00:34:49.220 Let me fix those.

00:34:49.960 And then later, I'll tell you the gospel, whereas I'm saying the gospel itself is the

00:34:55.420 best argument for Christianity being true.

00:34:58.140 And the argument goes like this.

00:35:00.060 I got to give an analogy.

00:35:01.360 The analogy I make is this.

00:35:02.340 Imagine I'm playing basketball and I suddenly collapse on the court.

00:35:05.740 People run over and they say, what's wrong with you?

00:35:08.040 And they look at me and they say, oh, you sprained your ankle.

00:35:10.060 Just walk it off.

00:35:10.840 Another guy says, no, let me get an ace bandage for my car.

00:35:13.640 Another guy says, let me get some Advil.

00:35:15.020 But they're all having this friendly discussion of how I can get up and walk it off, basically.

00:35:19.060 But in the midst of that crowd, a woman rushes up and she says, get this man to a hospital 0.93

00:35:24.080 right now.

00:35:24.840 Call 911.

00:35:25.860 I'm a doctor.

00:35:27.000 His life is in danger.

00:35:28.180 I saw what happened.

00:35:28.960 Get him to a hospital.

00:35:30.320 And the crowd's incredulous.

00:35:32.080 They say, you're overreacting, lady.

00:35:34.460 And she turns to me and she says, I'm going to tell you two things.

00:35:38.040 You can't feel your legs and you can't move.

00:35:41.040 And the crowd again is like, you're overreacting.

00:35:43.420 Don't freak him out.

00:35:44.360 But I tell them, get me to a hospital right now.

00:35:47.180 Now, why do I say that?

00:35:49.740 And the answer is, I know two things the crowd does not know.

00:35:52.360 And they could not know.

00:35:53.700 I know that I can't feel my legs and I can't move.

00:35:56.740 So I have every reason to believe that she is who she claimed to be.

00:36:00.840 Now, this is the analogy.

00:36:02.440 I'm claiming that Christianity makes two unique claims about your condition as a human being. 0.89

00:36:08.160 One, you are radically a moral failure. 1.00

00:36:11.260 You're a sinner. 0.55

00:36:11.720 And two, you need a rescuer, not just improvement, not just a better law, not just a better government, 0.93

00:36:17.240 not just more affirmation.

00:36:18.600 You need a rescue.

00:36:20.240 I'm saying Christianity is unique in making those claims. 1.00

00:36:23.020 And then also, I give a long defense that those claims are true.

00:36:27.240 You can know those claims are true just by 10 minutes of self-reflection.

00:36:31.000 You know you're messed up.

00:36:33.000 You know all the solutions.

00:36:34.160 You've tried all the self-help books, looking at the mirror and saying you're good enough

00:36:38.020 and smart enough and people like you, that's not your problem.

00:36:41.620 You need a rescue.

00:36:42.820 And let me quote.

00:36:43.320 This is great.

00:36:43.800 This is a book called God is Not One, written by Stephen Prothero.

00:36:47.380 He's not a Christian. 1.00

00:36:48.860 He calls himself religiously confused.

00:36:51.260 But he argues in that book that all religions are different, but that Christianity alone offers

00:36:58.300 salvation.

00:37:00.000 This is a quote from him.

00:37:01.480 It's a non-Christian religious studies scholar.

00:37:03.220 He says, just as hitting home runs is the monopoly of one sport, salvation is the monopoly

00:37:09.860 of one religion.

00:37:11.920 If you see sin as the human predicament and salvation as the solution, then it makes sense

00:37:17.600 to come to Christ.

00:37:19.340 That is exactly my argument.

00:37:21.360 And so the gospel itself identifies, like no one else does, our real problem and the real

00:37:27.080 solution we know we need.

00:37:28.380 And that makes sense, therefore, to believe that Christianity is uniquely true. 0.99

00:37:33.220 For me, it's also, it's helpful to see its opposite as kind of Christianity falls out

00:37:50.360 of the mainstream in the United States, which, you know, God is completely sovereign over that.

00:37:55.780 That doesn't mean any kind of like demise for the global church or anything like that.

00:38:01.280 But as we see it wane in cultural influence, we see a rise in chaos, a rise in confusion,

00:38:08.260 a rise in all kinds of moral anarchy.

00:38:12.280 And so it is because it is true.

00:38:14.960 It is true whether you believe it or not.

00:38:17.420 And therefore, the absence of truth is going to lead to all kinds of really deadly and dastardly

00:38:24.280 consequences.

00:38:25.240 But what do you say to people who say, no, no, no, see, without Christianity, we're finally

00:38:31.160 achieving some sort of liberation.

00:38:33.580 People are free to be who they want to be, identify as they want to identify, love who

00:38:38.760 they want to love.

00:38:39.840 And really, Christianity has just been a tool of oppression and holding people's true selves 1.00

00:38:44.560 back and making people miserable and unhappy. 0.54

00:38:48.180 And so it can't be true.

00:38:49.500 It can't be right.

00:38:50.340 So one thing I say in the book is that actually, whether or not something is true does not

00:38:56.160 depend on whether you like it.

00:38:57.860 This is a truth that I had to learn as a non-Christian.

00:39:00.000 I had plenty of questions and objections to whether Christianity was good and whether I

00:39:05.400 liked it.

00:39:06.520 But as a scientist, I guess I'm trained to think in terms of not what I like, but what

00:39:10.480 is true.

00:39:11.140 You can't, you approach, so I actually, in the book, I say that theology done right is

00:39:16.920 a lot like science done right, in the sense that we can all have our pet theories, our

00:39:21.040 preferences.

00:39:21.900 But at the end of the day, as a scientist, you let nature tell you what's true.

00:39:26.000 You don't go to nature and say, this is what has to be true.

00:39:28.100 This is what I like.

00:39:28.800 So therefore, it is true.

00:39:30.180 The same way we approach God and we say, who are you as you actually are, whether or not

00:39:34.900 I like it.

00:39:35.560 Now, as for whether or not society is going to be better in the long term by rejecting

00:39:40.380 Christian assumptions and Christian values, et cetera, I would say, no, it's not.

00:39:45.300 And I think we should be confident as Christians that that's the case.

00:39:47.980 And not because, well, there can be societies that function for a long time, for decades on

00:39:52.880 atheism, for example, like the Soviet Union, but eventually they crumble. 0.84

00:39:56.540 Why?

00:39:57.340 Because they're running into reality.

00:39:59.560 Christianity is actually true, and eventually the bill will come due.

00:40:03.620 You can't reject reality forever.

00:40:05.620 Eventually, something will collapse.

00:40:08.260 And so that's going to happen.

00:40:09.440 But of course, in the meantime, we don't have to worry about anything except for, can

00:40:15.260 we live a faithful life to God right now where we are?

00:40:19.880 And can we share this good news with our neighbors urgently?

00:40:24.220 Because they could die tomorrow.

00:40:26.420 Forget about what happens in 15, 20 years.

00:40:28.620 They have one life right now, and they need to hear this message.

00:40:33.620 Yeah, we both like analogies.

00:40:35.860 One thing that I often say is truth.

00:40:37.500 Sometimes I say human nature, depending on what I'm talking about.

00:40:40.180 But truth is like a beach ball.

00:40:42.040 And all the powers that be can try to push it down. 0.81

00:40:45.080 It's either going to pop or it's going to pop back up.

00:40:48.120 And so that's what happens when you try to enact policies or push any kind of idea that

00:40:52.340 is contrary to human nature.

00:40:53.560 And because God created us, all of his rules and parameters and definitions will always be in

00:40:58.680 alignment with what is best for human beings.

00:41:00.760 Once you deny that, it's like you said, the bill is going to come do it at one point.

00:41:05.720 You mentioned sharing this truth with our neighbors.

00:41:10.120 Can you tell us, and I know it depends on the relationship and the person and the circumstances

00:41:14.620 and all of that.

00:41:15.540 But for someone who's thinking, okay, I've got a spouse or I've got a family member or a

00:41:20.380 friend who is hostile to God, hostile to Christianity, who I know they do not want to talk about this,

00:41:26.540 but I desperately want them to know the gospel.

00:41:29.680 Like, how do you recommend kind of starting that conversation and talking to them about

00:41:36.220 the stuff that we're discussing?

00:41:37.560 So one really helpful, non-threatening way to approach these conversations is by asking

00:41:44.900 them for a book recommendation.

00:41:47.620 Say, I want to understand what you believe about reality.

00:41:50.880 What's the most important thing to you, whether it's religion or politics, and then inviting

00:41:55.680 them, what's the best book that you'd recommend that I could read, that I could read, and I'd

00:42:00.900 love to discuss it with you, right?

00:42:02.760 That's a great opening for them to tell you their favorite book, and then you meet and

00:42:06.940 talk about matters that are important to them.

00:42:10.140 So that, on its own, is an opening for you to talk about really important things.

00:42:13.660 They might share a book about Marxism or a book about Eastern philosophy.

00:42:18.800 Who knows?

00:42:19.380 But then it gives you an opening to talk about these big questions.

00:42:22.120 And of course, as a Christian, it's going to naturally lead you to talk about what's most

00:42:26.060 important to you.

00:42:27.460 Then oftentimes, I've often said, well, can we exchange books?

00:42:30.800 So you give me a book to read, and I'll read it, and we can talk about that.

00:42:34.520 And then I'll give you a book to read.

00:42:35.940 We'll talk about that.

00:42:37.200 So it's a great—it's very—and people love to give you book recommendations, right?

00:42:40.640 Who doesn't like to say, I'd love to read a book with you and talk about it?

00:42:44.360 And so it's a very easy way to start those conversations.

00:42:47.880 And then, actually, that's how I began getting interested in apologetics.

00:42:51.460 It was an atheist who gave me a book recommendation telling me it's going to totally demolish 1.00

00:42:55.940 Christianity.

00:42:56.540 I said, well, okay.

00:42:57.540 So I read this book, and it didn't.

00:42:59.900 But that actually started me on this journey of showing people that, no, Christianity actually

00:43:07.600 is based on reason, and it's well-evidenced, and it's true.

00:43:11.940 So yeah, definitely, it's a great opportunity.

00:43:14.640 Yes, definitely.

00:43:16.180 And if people have specific questions to ask you, either about your book, about apologetics,

00:43:22.440 about sharing the gospel, can they reach out to you and ask those questions?

00:43:26.620 Absolutely.

00:43:27.040 So I'm on Twitter way too much, at Neil Shenvey.

00:43:31.380 Aren't we all?

00:43:31.680 Well, not everybody.

00:43:32.500 Some wiser people than I have gotten off social media, but I'm still there.

00:43:36.700 So Neil Shenvey, N-E-I-L-S-H-E-N-V-I.

00:43:40.580 If you Google my name, Neil Shenvey—I'm like the only Neil Shenvey in the world, I think—and

00:43:45.780 so you Google me, you'll find my website, which has dozens of hundreds of articles, book

00:43:51.460 reviews, and information about this book.

00:43:54.340 And it has my email address on my webpage.

00:43:57.180 You're welcome, more than welcome, to email me and ask questions.

00:44:00.060 I get a lot of correspondence.

00:44:01.400 I try to keep up with it.

00:44:02.840 But yeah, you're welcome to—or DM me on Twitter.

00:44:04.600 My DMs are open.

00:44:06.060 Final question.

00:44:07.280 And you have answered this in so many ways in our conversation, but I'd like to ask this

00:44:12.780 of particular guests.

00:44:14.760 You have 30 seconds or so—you can fudge on that—to share the gospel.

00:44:21.260 What is the gospel?

00:44:24.060 The gospel is that God created the universe.

00:44:27.160 He created you personally.

00:44:28.780 He knows you.

00:44:29.760 He knows everything about you.

00:44:31.340 That's a problem because all of us—not just you, all of us—don't live up to God's

00:44:36.540 moral standards.

00:44:37.520 We've all sinned against him in many ways, in thought, in word, in deed, and the solution

00:44:42.420 is not for us to do better, to be better, to do the work, to get religious, to get a

00:44:47.780 better government, to do activism.

00:44:49.360 The solution was God had to intervene by sending his son, Jesus Christ, to live the life that

00:44:55.940 we all ought to have lived, to obey God's law, but then to be punished like a lawbreaker,

00:45:00.740 to die on the cross as a rebel against God.

00:45:02.900 And he raised Jesus from the dead so that he could be our high priest.

00:45:07.800 He could represent us to God purely sinless and spotless.

00:45:12.560 So all of us, no matter how bad you are, you can be forgiven by trusting in Jesus' work

00:45:18.340 for you on the cross.

00:45:19.340 You can be accepted forever as a child of God.

00:45:21.860 And that is the best news in the entire world.

00:45:24.740 Yes, and amen.

00:45:25.960 Thank you so much.

00:45:26.940 I really encourage people to go out and buy Why Believe?

00:45:31.160 A Reasoned Approach to Christianity. 0.88

00:45:33.500 You can buy it on Amazon.

00:45:34.900 I'm sure you can buy it on other outlets at your local bookstore as well.

00:45:38.320 Probably easiest to get it on Amazon.

00:45:40.960 Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

00:45:43.980 Thank you so much, Allie.

00:45:47.340 All right, guys.

00:45:48.160 Thanks so much for listening and watching.

00:45:50.960 You probably noticed that it looked different and sounded different in the introduction and

00:45:55.040 the ads that's because I had to do those from home.

00:45:57.320 So thanks for bearing with us.

00:45:58.800 If you are watching on YouTube, please press the like button and subscribe if you haven't

00:46:03.040 already.

00:46:03.400 That helps us out.

00:46:04.480 And leave a five-star review wherever you listen.

00:46:07.700 We love seeing those as well if you love the show.

00:46:11.100 Thanks so much.

00:46:11.920 And we will see you guys back here on Monday.

00:46:14.140 Bye.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - September 15, 2022

Ep 679 ｜ Busting Atheism’s Biggest Myths ｜ Guest： Dr. Neil Shenvi

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