Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 695 ｜ Why Children's Rights Trump Adults' Feelings ｜ Guest： Katy Faust

00:00:00.000 What is the answer to the growing movement to sexualize children, to steal their innocence

00:00:05.580 through things like drag queen story hour, inappropriate sex education, introducing them 1.00

00:00:11.000 to the confusion of gender ideology, using them as political pawns and objects of validation for 1.00

00:00:17.340 the sexual expression of adults? How do we combat the reconfiguration of the family,

00:00:22.900 commercialized surrogacy, and the cultural and technological changes that ignore the rights and

00:00:28.340 well-being of children? Our guest, one of my favorite guests, Katie Faust, has the answers

00:00:33.880 to these questions for us. She is the founder and director of Them Before Us. It is described as a

00:00:39.400 global movement defending children's right to their mother and father. She is also the daughter of two

00:00:47.960 gay women. She has a biological mother who is married to a woman and was raised by two women, 0.96

00:00:55.880 and that is part of the foundation for why she does what she does. She knows what father hunger

00:01:03.120 looks like. She knows what it means to need a mother and a father present in children's lives 0.97

00:01:10.040 to protect their well-being, to protect their innocence. There is an assault on these things

00:01:16.280 today, and Katie is a fighter for the rights and security of children. You are going to love this

00:01:23.440 conversation. It's going to educate you, empower you, and fire you up. That is what Katie does. 1.00

00:01:28.780 As always, this episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com

00:01:34.280 slash Allie. That's goodranchers.com slash Allie. All right, without further ado, here is our friend Katie.

00:01:41.360 Katie, thank you so much for joining us. There are a million things I want to talk to you about.

00:01:56.220 So first, I just kind of want to ask you to set us up because people are looking at the landscape

00:02:02.620 right now, and we're seeing a lot of things that scare us when it comes to kids. It's getting a lot

00:02:08.540 harder, I think, for progressives to hide the fact that sexualization of children is on the table.

00:02:15.200 When we're looking at Drag Queen Story Hour, when we're looking at, in some cases,

00:02:20.280 child drag shows that are being glorified and normalized in some places, when we're looking

00:02:26.700 at the pornography that is being read in schools towards young children, the so-called sex education,

00:02:35.160 like, give us a lay of the land. Tell us about the seriousness of this moment when it comes to the

00:02:41.780 rights and the protection of kids. Yep. Well, obviously, sexual desire, adult sexual

00:02:48.600 identification has become God. And because sex is connected to babies, that means that children 0.85

00:02:55.340 have become the acceptable and necessary sacrifice on the altar of adult sexual desire. And so my

00:03:02.740 organization deals with that primarily in the theater of marriage and family issues. But what

00:03:07.640 you're starting to see is that children are also the necessary sacrifice in many of these other

00:03:12.880 areas, especially when it comes to, for example, validating adult sexual expression through early

00:03:17.920 sexualization of children who are brought to these Drag Queen Story Hours or used in the context of a

00:03:24.860 school setting to validate adult sexual expression. And for some reason, these adults see that it is

00:03:30.800 necessary to have these innocent children who don't have the critical thinking abilities to be able to

00:03:37.300 push back and filter out what is being presented to them, right? They are seeing these children,

00:03:42.260 they're functioning as accessories to validate adult sexual desire, sexual expression, because adult

00:03:48.460 sexuality has become God. And so, of course, children are going to be brought into that. And this is harmful 0.76

00:03:54.380 because children are not miniature adults, right? They don't have the same kind of reasoning capacity.

00:04:00.400 They are not just smaller versions of adults that are able to process through and reason through all

00:04:05.720 of this. We violate their innocence. We harm their minds. We harm their bodies when we then incorporate

00:04:12.780 them into this larger conversation about adult sexual expressionism, whereas there should be a firewall,

00:04:18.940 a protective boundary around children's right to innocence, children's right to, for example,

00:04:25.020 an intact, unmedicalized body, and children's right to life, which we're all familiar with.

00:04:30.360 And, of course, what we do at Them Before Us is children's right to their mother and father,

00:04:34.580 regardless of adult sexual feeling, sexual expression, or sexual identity.

00:04:39.480 A really good example of what you're talking about, I saw you comment on it on Twitter. I commented on it,

00:04:43.740 too. It was a screenshot of a pregnancy announcement by a very elite private school in D.C.

00:04:50.460 And it is sent from what's called Manatee Teachers, I guess that's the name of the preschool,

00:04:56.840 to Manatee Families. And here is part of this email that would not have been even understood 10 years ago.

00:05:06.140 It says,

00:05:06.340 We wanted to take an opportunity to share some exciting news with you, though you may have already

00:05:10.120 noted Mr. Powell's growing belly. Tristan is expecting a kiddo mid-January, goes on to kind of

00:05:16.740 detail what the parental leave will look like. And then this part I thought was really interesting and

00:05:23.240 especially sad. When we do chat as a class, this email says, we will prepare the kids for Tristan's

00:05:29.840 absence and explain the reason in age-appropriate ways. For kids who may have associations with

00:05:35.340 pregnancy and a certain gender, only girls or moms can have babies. Tristan uses the language of,

00:05:41.540 some boys have bodies that can have babies, and I have the kind of body that can have a baby.

00:05:46.880 Isn't that cool? And then talks about how this person is going to describe being transgender and

00:05:54.780 basically just says, look, this is how it is. This is what we're going to teach your kids.

00:05:59.500 You can repeat our language at home. And as you said, takes down that firewall of innocence,

00:06:06.060 that basic understanding that kids have that, oh, women have babies. Women can become moms. There's

00:06:12.620 a difference between male and female and replaces that innate clarity that they have with confusion.

00:06:18.600 You said that this is kind of the sexualization of children. What do you say to somebody who says,

00:06:23.980 this has nothing to do with sex? This is just about acceptance. Oh my gosh. You know, that was such an

00:06:30.220 example of using children as pawns to validate not just adult sexual expressionism, but to validate

00:06:37.200 this massive child loss that this baby is going to experience because a single woman who has been 1.00

00:06:45.440 surgically and or chemically altered to appear like a man has created an intentionally fatherless

00:06:51.920 child, um, whose ABBA is how this, um, woman wants to be referred to, um, is not even going to reflect,

00:07:01.460 right, the beauty of femininity. So there are, there's tragedy for this child. And then the school is

00:07:07.800 coaching parents to condition children to validate the adult sexual expression at the expense of a child

00:07:17.940 who is going to be intentionally fatherless. And so it's amazing how aggressive, uh, the other side

00:07:23.860 is being in terms of messaging to young kids and they're doing it at these young, young grades because,

00:07:30.080 um, children have this, um, you know, the, the trivium approach, the classical model of education

00:07:37.160 recognizes that there's these sort of developmental benchmarks when it comes to, um, a child's mental

00:07:42.740 reasoning. And up until about age 10 or 11, they're in that grammar phase where they naturally kind

00:07:47.800 of sponge in and accept in an unquestioning way, whatever a trusted adult tells them. That is why

00:07:53.380 you've got these aggressive educators who are seeking to introduce, um, gender confusion and these,

00:07:59.540 um, adult ideologies into elementary school ages. And so you look at this text sent out from the

00:08:05.540 school district, um, and how aggressive it is in terms of promoting this distorted worldview to

00:08:11.300 preschoolers. And so my response to that is yes, we absolutely need to message to children about what

00:08:17.760 is happening here. And it needs to align with what you said, right? What they know instinctually. And

00:08:22.460 that is that men and women are different. Mommies have babies. Children need moms and dads. Isn't it sad

00:08:28.060 if a child is going to intentionally lose their dad? It's sad, right? That the mommy thinks that she has to 0.96

00:08:35.060 alter her body to be her true self, right? Like if they're going to grow up, go after our kids, 0.97

00:08:40.780 we need to go after our kids even harder with truth and beauty because the other side isn't

00:08:46.660 waiting for them to mature into those older stages, the middle school stage where they can process

00:08:51.180 through competing worldviews and the high school stage where they are then able to confidently

00:08:56.140 articulate their views. We have to get to kids as early as they are. And unfortunately it has to do with

00:09:01.880 these distorted messages around sex and gender. Yes, I love that point. Someone is always discipling

00:09:08.100 your children. And secular progressives take discipleship very seriously. I think in some

00:09:16.040 cases more seriously than the church, more seriously than some Christian parents. And I don't think that

00:09:22.200 this means, like I have a three-year-old and an 18-month-old, they don't need to know right now

00:09:27.420 that there are people, there are women who think that they're men. They don't need to know that 0.94

00:09:33.180 confusion. What they need right now is a foundation of what is true, a validation of what they already

00:09:38.480 observe. Because as we just said, they already innately can tell the difference. Well, there's

00:09:42.780 mommy, there's daddy, there's Grammy, there's papa, that's a man, that's a woman, that's a mommy. I mean,

00:09:47.560 they make these observations all of the time. And to simply validate what is true, to lay the foundation

00:09:53.520 of what is true. And as you were saying, eventually, you do kind of have to give them the tools to

00:09:58.440 combat then the perversion of that, that they see. But you're absolutely right. It's happening at

00:10:04.620 younger and younger levels. And there does seem to be this perverse motivation of needing child

00:10:13.040 affirmation of adult sexuality. But why do they need, like, from your perspective,

00:10:19.680 why would an adult need the validation of a four-year-old? I mean, that's really sick. 0.87

00:10:26.100 Yeah, well, obviously, it's our self-obsession, right? This idea that the most important thing

00:10:30.960 in the world is self or sex or maybe safety, as we saw in COVID, right? And so when that becomes

00:10:36.580 your ultimate good, right, when that is the ultimate thing, then everything else must bow down

00:10:41.340 to that ultimate thing. And so we're worshiping the wrong God. And the world is telling these adults

00:10:46.080 to worship that God. We just have to make sure that our children are not participants willing or

00:10:51.400 unwilling in their worship. So I love what you're saying about sheltering your kids. I'm actually in

00:10:57.400 the middle of book number two called Raising Conservative Kids in a Woke City, because I'm

00:11:02.040 passionate about two things. I'm passionate about protecting the rights and well-being of children

00:11:05.860 of the world. And I'm passionate about my children. I am passionate about making sure that my

00:11:10.720 children are not consumed by the woke machine. And the reality is that you can do that as parents,

00:11:15.660 even when everything is against you, your neighbors, your school district, right? So maybe your

00:11:19.980 extended family, maybe even the church community you go to is being infected by woke-ism. And what

00:11:25.680 you're saying about those early years is exactly right. Your job in those early years is to saturate

00:11:32.820 your children in truth and beauty, right? They're already seeing the world as it is, you name it. And then

00:11:39.060 you explain why moms and dads are different and why it's so good. Like why mommy has a baby in her

00:11:45.100 belly and how incredible it is that mommy's bodies can do that, but daddy's bodies can't, you know,

00:11:50.000 how moms and dads, they go to the same bedroom at night. But you know, when the cousin comes over

00:11:55.120 with her boyfriend, they go to two different rooms at night. I mean, you're just narrating their world

00:11:59.920 to bring out the beauty of the world and also the truth, right? In those early years, in the elementary

00:12:06.020 school years, part of their world is going to involve situations that are broken, situations that

00:12:12.080 aren't ideal. And then you explain that to them in the context of truth and beauty. But one of our

00:12:18.240 rules is in those early years, in those elementary school years, we filter out aggressive adults. We

00:12:25.100 filter out worldviews that seek to evangelize our children into that brokenness. But then when they

00:12:31.100 get to middle school, that is when we begin what we call the great equipping, where we introduce them

00:12:36.640 to those competing worldviews, because we want them to know that there are answers, and they can get

00:12:41.520 those answers from us.

00:12:53.560 I have so many thoughts about what you just said. I want to get first your thoughts on what the long

00:13:00.960 term consequence is of parents replacing that kind of natural clarity and curiosity that children have

00:13:09.980 about the world around them with confusion and chaos. Because I notice in my kids, as they are

00:13:16.500 differentiating between genders, really without any instruction from us, that's just observations

00:13:22.320 that they made out in the world, that that is kind of their way of making their world smaller.

00:13:29.240 They're constantly putting things in categories, not just people, but also objects. They're

00:13:34.160 constantly trying to make sense of where things go, what category it falls in, what purpose it has

00:13:41.620 when they see people then out in public, and they say, you know, that's a family, or those are friends,

00:13:49.320 or that's a boy, that's a girl. I can tell they're trying to make sense of a world that is new to them,

00:13:54.160 it is novel to them, makes sense. They're trying to fit it into contexts that make it smaller and

00:14:00.160 make it more chewable for them. And that seems to me like it would be a really important part of

00:14:05.220 child development. And that if you rob that from a child, and you put them, even if it's just in a

00:14:11.580 mental situation in which nothing really makes sense, there's no categories, you can't assume

00:14:17.740 people's gender, you can't assume the categories that that people go, you can't assume what a family

00:14:23.500 looks like, that that would be disorienting for a child. And I just want to know, like,

00:14:28.720 what is the consequence of that for a child long term? What do you think?

00:14:33.440 It's a massive destabilization, right? That you are destabilizing all of the things that they should

00:14:38.920 be able to anchor themselves to when it comes to finding meaning, belonging, rationality, that we are

00:14:45.380 supposed to be able to look at the natural world and then anchor ourselves to it. But if you cannot

00:14:52.200 even trust what you see with your own eyes, you're not going to be able to rely on yourself,

00:14:58.320 the people around you, that kind of thing. And honestly, ultimately, what it means is you are

00:15:03.360 going to detach, right from these primary relationships in your life, and you are going

00:15:08.040 to reattach to people that don't have the same level of commitment, trustworthiness and investment

00:15:13.740 in your life, especially when it comes to the parent child relationship. So what you're saying is,

00:15:19.800 you know, what I'm saying is, it's very, very important for parents to not only be the primary

00:15:25.020 educators, but in those early years, to give children the foundations to connect themselves

00:15:31.860 to the real world. And you as the parent are one of the main ways that that is going to happen.

00:15:37.380 That happens a lot through what you direct their attention towards. That happens a lot in terms of

00:15:41.640 helping them to properly contextualize when they see brokenness in the world. And ultimately,

00:15:46.800 it is going to serve the purpose of reinforcing their relationship and their trust in you,

00:15:51.360 which is exactly where it belongs.

00:15:53.520 You mentioned a couple minutes ago, filtering out those aggressive adults and aggressive

00:15:59.700 influences that are either seeking sexual validation in children, in the name of inclusion

00:16:05.960 and tolerance, that's typically how it goes, or those who are trying to indoctrinate your children

00:16:10.680 with things that are wrong. And then equipping them, and it just reminded me of something that I read

00:16:16.800 a while ago. I don't remember who initially said it. Maybe it was you. It sounds like something that

00:16:20.880 you would say, is that groomers look for gaps. Groomers don't just look for who is the weak child,

00:16:29.140 who is the vulnerable child, who is prey, but where is the vulnerable prey? Where is the fatherless child?

00:16:37.160 Where is the child with absentee parents? Where is the child whose parents are more concerned

00:16:42.560 about fitting in with the mainstream culture or being called the bigot than they are protecting

00:16:48.240 a child from predation? Groomers look for gaps. And so what I'm hearing you say is that from an early

00:16:55.020 age, parents are to be standing in the gap. And if you're not willing to do that, come what may,

00:17:01.960 then you have abdicated really your God-given role as a parent.

00:17:05.540 I didn't say it, but I'm going to start.

00:17:08.520 Yeah, it's great.

00:17:09.540 It's so true. And I think that in our world, when I grew up, I'm a Gen Xer. And so the big

00:17:15.520 panic was strangers on the street abducting your kids. That is not generally where the battleground

00:17:20.800 is today. The battleground is an information battle. It is a battle of authorities. Who is

00:17:25.540 your authority? Where do you get your information from? And the gaps have got to be addressed when it

00:17:31.700 comes to worldview, when it comes to what you think. When it comes to my kids, maybe they can't

00:17:38.640 refute everything that a woke teacher says, but we have filled in the gaps enough for them to be

00:17:44.240 able to spot a lie. They know enough that when a woke teacher says something about the evils of

00:17:50.500 capitalism, they know enough to say something's not right there. And where do they go? To me and

00:17:56.480 their father. And they say, you know, my teacher said something about capitalism, you know, and that

00:18:01.580 being the instrument for poverty. But that doesn't sound right. Because I think that you mentioned

00:18:05.480 that, you know, we have like decimated poverty in the last 40 years. And I thought you said something

00:18:11.220 about the connection between, but what is that? Right? So like, we have got to fill in the gaps for

00:18:16.080 our kids so that they are not prey for adults that are going to lie to them in all of these different

00:18:23.280 areas. Because there are distortions abundant, unfortunately, today, when it comes to biological

00:18:28.280 reality, economic reality, historical reality, you parent fill in the gaps so that they are not

00:18:34.380 vulnerable to adults who would seek to prey on them, whether it's for just ideological indoctrination or

00:18:41.020 something even more nefarious. You're telling your kids, yes, what to think in a lot of cases,

00:18:47.420 but also how to think so that maybe you haven't covered every single possibly potential, you know,

00:18:53.780 talking point from the left. But like you said, when they encounter one, they at least have the

00:18:58.840 ability to say, hmm, you know what, she said this, but what about this? That's really, you at least

00:19:06.160 want the gap, you want the pause to where they don't just automatically take it in because someone in

00:19:12.720 authority suggested it, but they are willing to ask you, they're willing to read, they're at least

00:19:18.260 willing to dissect it, giving them that tool of discernment after laying the foundation of clarity

00:19:24.940 is what sets them up, as you said, to be able to combat those lies. And we hear, you know, I remember

00:19:32.600 there was an article a couple years back from this Harvard professor saying that parenting or

00:19:38.840 homeschooling is authoritarian. It's authoritarian because parents are telling their kids what to

00:19:46.200 think. Look, everyone is telling kids what to think. Everyone is telling kids what to think. The

00:19:50.240 only question is what? There is no neutral institution. The question is who has the right

00:19:56.220 to tell a child what to think and how to think. Secular progressives apparently think that it's them

00:20:02.020 that the parent doesn't have a right. And that example that you just gave of a son coming back to you

00:20:07.440 and saying, hang on, mom and dad, didn't you say that? That's exactly what they're trying to prevent,

00:20:11.620 especially when it comes to something like gender ideology. 0.74

00:20:15.840 So ultimately, all of this comes down to the question, to whom do children belong? To whom do

00:20:22.220 they belong? You can talk about curriculum, you can talk about medical decisions, but first you have

00:20:27.660 to answer the question, to whom do children belong? And our answer to that question is children belong to

00:20:34.560 parents. And from a children's rights perspective, that's really important because we have studied

00:20:40.220 family structure for decades. And we know that parents, children's own parents are statistically

00:20:46.440 the most invested in, protective of, and connected to their kids. That is why they have a right to

00:20:53.740 direct their education. That is why they have the right to make medical decisions. Quick story,

00:20:59.380 my kids are all very different. I've got four kids. They're all awesome. They're all teenagers

00:21:03.860 right now. Teenagers are awesome. Don't let anybody tell you that they're not. But I live in

00:21:08.820 Washington. Washington is nuts. Washington is insane. And Washington says that at 13, your child 0.99

00:21:15.160 can direct their own medical care. And there is a requirement for the parent to leave the physical

00:21:21.760 exam when your kid is in the room with the doctor. And so I told my daughter ahead of time,

00:21:26.480 we were going in a year ago for her physical exam, her sports exam, so that she could play sports.

00:21:31.260 And I said, FYI, the doctor is going to ask me to leave, but that is your decision. Do you want me

00:21:36.520 to stay or do you want me to go? And she said, I got this, mom. And so we get to the medical,

00:21:41.240 like the doctor's appointment, we kind of go through the height, weight, all of this medical history.

00:21:45.640 And then he goes, I'm going to have to have you step out now, mom. And I said, that's my daughter's

00:21:50.020 decision. Honey, what do you think? And she goes, oh, it's okay, mom, no problem. So I step out.

00:21:54.180 Well, a minute later, he lets me back in. Right. And in the car, I was like, well, what happened

00:21:58.880 there? And she said, well, he shut the door and he looked at me and he goes, so how many sexual

00:22:06.600 partners I've had in the last year? And she goes, I haven't had any. And he's like, oh, you know,

00:22:13.460 kind of like, well, it took, you know, too bad. You can really be honest with me. And he goes, well,

00:22:16.880 have you done any drugs or are you drinking alcohol? And she goes, no, I'm not. And he goes,

00:22:24.020 okay. And then she said, let me ask you a question. If I were having sex or if I was using drugs,

00:22:32.040 would you tell me to stop? And he goes, well, only if it's a problem. And she goes, isn't it always

00:22:39.200 risky for teenagers to be having sex and doing drugs? And he said, well, sometimes there's something

00:22:44.440 that we can do to help them. And she said, don't you think it's the parent's responsibility to help

00:22:51.440 them since they're the ones that are going to be around next year. If there is a problem, not you.

00:22:56.380 And he just said, I think we're done here. And he opened the door and he let me come back in.

00:23:01.120 Right. So that is an example of a parent. I mean, I've had plenty of parent fails. I have had times

00:23:06.880 where my kids feel unequipped, but she was exactly right. It is parents who are the most invested.

00:23:12.660 It's parents who should know that information. It's parents who should be having those conversations

00:23:16.480 because it is parents who actually care. And we've never met this doctor before.

00:23:21.900 He didn't know her name an hour before we got to that appointment. I am the one that is invested.

00:23:26.860 I am the one that has been there forever. Right. I am the one that cares about where she's going to be

00:23:30.360 two years from now, 12 years from now, 20 years from now. Right. So ultimately all these questions

00:23:36.220 come back to, to whom do children belong? It is not doctors. It is not schools. It is not educators.

00:23:41.240 It is not the government. It is the parents. And so first we have to get that question straight.

00:23:46.540 And then honestly, all of the rest and all the right answers and all of the training are going

00:23:51.260 to flow from that. There was, um, I don't know if you saw it and I don't know if I have it. Oh,

00:24:06.660 I do. Okay. This reminds me everything that you're saying is exactly correct. And so good. And I think

00:24:12.460 about it all the time with pushing gender ideology. And there was this, uh, delegate for Virginia, 0.97

00:24:18.100 Elizabeth Guzman, who said that she is introducing legislation or has introduced legislation

00:24:23.400 to, uh, expand the definition of child abuse in the state of Virginia to include parents who are not

00:24:29.680 affirming of a child's gender identity, meaning that those parents can lose custody as has happened

00:24:35.080 already in multiple places in the United States. If they say, okay, you know what? I don't want my

00:24:40.900 13 year old to go on cross sex hormones. Um, they can actually have their child taken away. That child 0.95

00:24:46.320 can be placed into the hands of the state. Um, we've already seen the consequences of that. I don't know

00:24:51.480 if you know who Yaley Martinez is a young child that was in California who was taken out of her mother's

00:24:57.340 custody because of the recommendation of school psychologists bounced around to different group homes

00:25:02.220 because her mom wouldn't, uh, affirm her male identity, ended up throwing herself on the train

00:25:07.740 tracks and committed suicide because she was taken away from the only person who cared about her.

00:25:12.780 And so like, and I guarantee you, none of the teachers or psychologists or the doctors or the CPS

00:25:18.760 workers showed up at that little girl's funeral because at the end of the day, they didn't care.

00:25:24.740 That's the consequence of separating a child from their parent for the sake of ideology.

00:25:29.160 And ultimately, again, that comes back to whom do children belong? And the school is saying they

00:25:34.600 belong to us. We can craft, we can hide, we can cultivate this alternative identity, um,

00:25:43.840 without parents' knowledge, without their consent, right? Because children actually belong to us.

00:25:48.340 So first we ask that question and answer that question to whom do children belong? Um, and if we

00:25:52.820 get that right, and that is, they belong to parents, then you can look at that situation in California

00:25:58.060 where Gavin Newsom is saying we will be a sanctuary state, you know, for children who want to gender

00:26:03.760 transition and emancipate themselves from parents or, um, put our finger on the scale of a custody

00:26:09.940 battle between two parents whose child, uh, identifies as the opposite sex. Um, and we're going to side 1.00

00:26:16.320 with the parent that wants to chemically and surgically castrate them. Um, ultimately, you know,

00:26:21.060 you get down to the question of to whom do children belong? And most of these issues are going to go

00:26:25.280 away. So that is where the battle needs to be. It is a parental rights battle in a lot of these

00:26:31.180 conversations, but then in the marriage and family debate, it's also a children's rights battle.

00:26:36.740 Yep. And unfortunately, as, as you know, and we'll kind of talk more about, um, what this is and like

00:26:42.140 how we kind of approach this, there are obviously biological parents who do a bad job. Like I'm thinking 0.84

00:26:47.620 of that family that was highlighted by Fox news just a couple months ago, this little girl whose parent

00:26:53.720 said, Oh yeah, from the time that she, or they said he was 18 months old, like he knew that he

00:26:59.820 was a boy and transitioned him into a boy and Fox news highlighted. This is like awesome and great

00:27:05.680 and wonderful. I mean, these are biological parents obviously doing, uh, abdicating their

00:27:12.360 responsibility. Then there was, I don't know, an even more disturbing story. If you can imagine it,

00:27:17.240 I saw it on Twitter. It was originally highlighted by libs of Tik TOK. This, uh, this pub in Eugene,

00:27:25.540 Oregon called old Nick's pub. They were having a child drag show and this little girl, she's 11

00:27:32.860 years old. Her name is Vanellope. I will link the thread so people can look at it. Uh, she has a drag 0.99

00:27:39.800 queen, uh, parent who is, I guess, a man who dances around like a drag queen. And this little girl has

00:27:47.640 been dressing up in these scantily clad dresses and performing for adults who are giving her money

00:27:53.660 for years. Since she was a little girl, this thread chronicles the history of her family and, um, and,

00:28:00.760 uh, how she has been raised from a very young age to kind of perform in a sexual way for people. 1.00

00:28:06.340 And this pub is defending themselves saying, it's weird that you guys are sexualizing her. 0.57

00:28:12.400 We don't see it sexually. Everyone else who is saying that they have a problem with this,

00:28:16.720 this pub is saying is sexualizing her. This mother isn't sexualizing her. The people giving her dollar 1.00

00:28:21.460 bills aren't sexualizing her. It's the people who have a problem with it. This is just about acceptance 1.00

00:28:26.940 and love. And I'm looking at this. I'm like, well, this girl is actually being sex trafficked.

00:28:31.480 She's being sex trafficked from a young age. That's what's happening. And there are people who are

00:28:35.500 actually applauding it. Who knows how much this goes on? I mean, what in the world do we do in

00:28:39.940 the face of an evil like this? Yeah. Well, we have to get very serious about who children are.

00:28:44.960 First, we figure out who children are, um, what they need, what they deserve, what they have a right

00:28:49.240 to. And yes, there are negligent, um, biological parents out there. They deserve our condemnation, 0.92

00:28:55.600 but when it comes to child thriving, um, we don't have to guess at what it takes for children to

00:29:01.400 thrive. Um, and that is whenever possible, their own mother and father married and raising them

00:29:07.100 together for life. Um, I, we have to get that right, right? First, we have to understand kind

00:29:12.600 of the concrete, what does it mean to be a human child? What do human children need? Um, they need

00:29:18.100 that mom and dad in their life. They need protection from sexualization. They need protection from adults

00:29:24.960 who would seek to exploit them. Children are vulnerable. And part of the role of adults is to

00:29:32.560 be an umbrella against all of the different ways that the world would seek to victimize them. And

00:29:38.140 unfortunately we have messages, um, going to parents these days that says, no, actually that kind of

00:29:44.700 exploitation is liberating for kids. So there is a huge role to play here. Uh, not just for thinking

00:29:52.760 adults, but especially for Christian adults, um, Christian adults who are mandated with child 0.99

00:29:58.160 protection, Christian adults who are warned against participation in anything that would cause

00:30:03.880 little ones to stumble. Um, and so there really is a place, especially for Christian adults to step 1.00

00:30:09.920 into this public debate and start to advocate on behalf of children, even if their own parents get it wrong.

00:30:22.760 Um, I'm sure that you saw a couple of days ago, everyone was reacting to this clip, uh, by a person

00:30:34.040 or the person in it is named Dylan Mulvaney. This is a guy who says that he is not just a woman, but a girl,

00:30:40.340 even though he is a grown man. And he plays kind of like a caricature of what he thinks, I guess, like a 12 year

00:30:45.960 old girl is, but has tens of millions of followers on Tik TOK and Instagram and Ulta platformed him as well as

00:30:52.340 another guy who thinks that he is a girl to talk about girlhood. And one of the things that he said, I reacted

00:30:58.020 to it on Monday is that he wants to be, um, a mom one day and that he totally can. Now people know my thoughts

00:31:06.020 on this. Give us your unfiltered reaction to not just that statement, but what it would actually look like

00:31:13.260 and mean for a child. If this person does become a parent, believing that he is a woman.

00:31:19.440 So I, I always begin answering these questions with first, we get down to what does the child need?

00:31:26.080 What is, what do they have a right to? Because once you understand that, once you can begin with

00:31:29.640 the child, most of these other questions answer themselves. So children are made from a man and a 0.97

00:31:35.200 woman, right? It takes a man and a woman to make a baby. Those two adults are statistically the adults 1.00

00:31:42.080 who are most likely to ensure that they are safe and loved. Like I already said, you know, those two

00:31:47.240 adults statistically are the most connected to invested in and protective of them. So if we really

00:31:52.580 believe that children deserve to be safe and loved, we will advocate for both biological parents, raising

00:31:57.440 them whenever possible. Those two adults also grant something to children that they crave. And that is

00:32:03.820 their biological identity. Um, whether it's an adoptee or whether it's a child created through sperm or egg

00:32:10.260 donation, many of those kids go on to have protracted searches to find their birth mother or their birth

00:32:16.660 father, because it's very hard to answer the question, who am I? If you don't know, whose am I?

00:32:23.600 And so when it comes to the children created through these third party reproduction scenarios,

00:32:28.380 it greatly impacts their identity. The largest study that we have on children created through sperm

00:32:34.040 donation, um, shows that they suffer disproportionate levels of identity issues and struggles because

00:32:41.400 being intentionally separated from a biological parent creates distress and confusion to the point

00:32:47.460 where they then are more likely to, um, battle substance abuse and delinquency in several areas.

00:32:53.600 Um, and then finally defending this fundamental child right to both biological parents will grant

00:33:00.340 children the perfect gender balance in the home, which maximizes child development because moms do 0.99

00:33:06.800 things that dads don't do. And dads do things that kids that moms don't do. And kids need both.

00:33:12.360 Um, that when you have a mom and a dad in the home, kids will have this well-rounded development.

00:33:17.880 Um, they will have their fine motor skills honed by mom. They'll have their gross motor skills

00:33:22.840 emphasized by dad. They will have a mom who's tends to focus on her, their immediate emotional wellbeing

00:33:28.520 inequality. They will have a dad who tends to push them to their limits and teach them abstract standards

00:33:34.100 of right and wrong. And, um, so like it is this amazing design. So what happens when a single man, 0.88

00:33:41.520 whether or not he pretends to be an adolescent girl, what happens when a single man decides that

00:33:47.300 he can have a child on his own? Well, he is always going to separate a child from a biological parent.

00:33:54.940 So they're going to be absent. One adult who statistically is going to the most be the most

00:33:59.500 connected to invested in and protective of them. That child will have gaps that can be exploited

00:34:07.760 because we have removed one of the greatest safeguards for child protection. Number two,

00:34:13.140 that child is going to suffer the identity struggles of not knowing who their biological mother is.

00:34:19.700 presumably this man would also rent the womb of another woman to gestate the child,

00:34:25.160 because no matter how much you identify as a woman, you cannot identify yourself into having

00:34:30.480 female reproductive organs necessary to create a child. So the child created through a surrogacy 1.00

00:34:35.800 arrangement is also going to have the loss of the only relationship that they know on the day that

00:34:41.640 they are born, something many adoptees refer to as a primal wound. And third, this child is going to

00:34:48.640 suffer mother loss. They're not going to have a woman in their home raising them. And then in the 1.00

00:34:54.780 case of this transgender man, they are going to have a distorted picture of femininity because even 1.00

00:35:01.360 though he calls himself a woman, even though he identifies as a woman, even though he, I don't want

00:35:06.500 to say dresses like a woman because I don't know women that dress like he does. I, you know, I don't

00:35:10.720 walk around in the little tube top and a pleated skirt. And I don't know a woman who acts like that 1.00

00:35:17.660 either. I mean, again, maybe some six year old girls, but anyway. Right. And so he has the brain

00:35:24.580 and the body of a man. He will interact with his child like all men do because men interact with 0.59

00:35:31.220 children, not based on how they dress, but based on their brain chemistry, based on their body

00:35:35.280 structure, their physical bodies actually drive the way that they interact with children. And if he were

00:35:42.260 to have a child, they would have the picture of a woman in their life, but they are going to be 0.99

00:35:48.940 interacting with that woman, the way that men interact with children. And so one of the main,

00:35:53.280 one of the most incredible things about having a male parent and a female parent is children have

00:35:57.500 the opportunity to interact with both halves of humanity. And, you know, I, I quote in my book,

00:36:04.160 um, children's rights champion, Bobby Lopez, who was raised by two women. And he said, you know,

00:36:10.340 Gabe, he also, um, identified as gay for many years. And he said, you know, kids that grow up

00:36:16.400 with a mom and dad, especially even gay kids that grow up with mom and dad, they don't understand how 0.92

00:36:20.500 lucky they are because you learn so much. You're socialized so much by having a female parent to

00:36:27.380 interact with and a male parent to interact with, because I did not have a male parent. I did not know

00:36:31.820 how to interact with other boys, other men in my life. I was just the social pariah. I had no

00:36:37.320 markers. I had no way to engage. I was so awkward around men because I never got the practice of

00:36:42.380 interacting with a man in my home. And so if this guy has a child, not, they're not even going to have

00:36:49.960 a male parent that they can identify with and say, this is what it's like to enter to interface with

00:36:56.100 half of humanity, because he's not even properly representing one half of humanity. And biologically,

00:37:00.880 he will be absent a female representation of half of humanity too. So what this is, is this is a, um,

00:37:08.660 this is a massive trade, right? This guy, Dylan gets his validation and this kid loses nearly

00:37:15.340 everything that they have a natural right to and that they need for proper development.

00:37:19.660 Yeah. And in some cases, I do think that having a child is an attempt to affirm their so-called

00:37:26.940 gender identity. I saw, I follow this account. You might follow them too. It's called males of Reddit

00:37:32.460 and it takes screenshots of the, like the subreddits of, um, like male to female transgender people and

00:37:43.460 just the different things that they think femininity is and wanting affirmation. And one post that I saw,

00:37:48.940 which is a pretty common theme, basically saying that when they have a child or when their partner

00:37:54.980 has a child, they are going to do everything they can to induce lactation so that they can attempt to 0.95

00:38:01.100 breastfeed their child. And one of the comments said, this is, this could be one of the most affirming

00:38:05.880 things I will ever do. So, I mean, that makes, just breaks my heart thinking about that. But again,

00:38:12.660 we have another example of adults seeking the validation of children in order to affirm their

00:38:19.900 sexual expression. Um, and I just can't imagine what the long-term consequences for society as a

00:38:28.300 whole will be. I mean, those chickens have not come home to roost fully yet. No, we have, we already

00:38:35.940 have such, um, robust data on other forms of not as extreme child deprivation when it comes to family

00:38:45.580 structure, even just no fault divorce, where the child probably still has contact with both mom and

00:38:52.700 dad, where they probably have representations of both halves of humanity in their life, even though

00:38:57.340 it's not every day, even no fault divorce has devastated children when it comes to their physical

00:39:03.460 health, their mental health, their emotional health, their academic health, their future relational

00:39:08.240 health. And that is mild compared to the total destruction of an alienation of a child from one

00:39:15.680 biological parent. And then the distortion of the parent in the home, when it comes to representing

00:39:21.280 the half of humanity that the child needs to, um, engage with, if they're going to be able to

00:39:26.400 develop those healthy social interactions later in life. So this is 100% the experimentation on children,

00:39:32.560 the use of children as accessories or tools for adult validation. You can also see those kinds

00:39:38.080 of responses. Um, when you look at men who have transitioned to women who are seeking to have,

00:39:43.440 um, wounds implanted in them, um, womb donation, um, and they're not doing it necessarily because they

00:39:51.760 want to, um, have a child that's secondary to the experience, right. And the validation that they would

00:39:59.440 get from having this female experience, right. It's not primarily about the baby. It's about, um, their own

00:40:05.920 validation for their sexual expression. And of course, of course, it's kids who have to pay the price.

00:40:22.880 Just a reminder to people is that this is all, in addition to just kind of being a sign of the times

00:40:28.880 in the evil spirit of the age that we're in, this is also a huge money making industry. And it's really

00:40:36.080 hard to create these lifelong slaves to the medical industry from, you know, childhood on,

00:40:42.640 if you have a parent who is interfering. So it really all does kind of just work together. Um,

00:40:49.520 to end the conversation, there's a million other things I could talk to you about. Let's wade into

00:40:54.400 even more, perhaps, uh, controversial territory because we haven't had an opportunity to discuss

00:41:00.000 this yet. And that is, uh, my colleague, Dave Rubin and his announcement that with his, uh,

00:41:06.560 with his partner that they are welcoming, have welcomed, I'm not really sure, um, two children.

00:41:12.560 Now I have to, you know, I have to caveat this. I've, I've, I've talked to Dave. He is,

00:41:17.920 I've met him multiple times, greatest interviewer in the business, kind person, husband,

00:41:24.160 is so kind. Um, I mean, from everything I know, great people, that to me, my response to this

00:41:32.400 saying that, you know, this is not something I can congratulate or celebrate has nothing to do

00:41:37.520 with that, but everything to do with part of what we talked about today, the belief that children have

00:41:42.320 a right to a mom and a dad. And what I think is the exploitation that is inherent in this, um,

00:41:49.200 surrogacy process. And what I want to get your response to is that, but also a lot of conservative

00:41:54.960 organizations saying, you know what? We're happy. Let's celebrate. Let's accept. We love life.

00:42:02.560 Life has already been reproduced in this case. What's the point of not, you know, saying yay to this? I

00:42:10.640 mean, what is your response to that kind of response to Christian conservatives who are like,

00:42:15.680 nah, let's just go ahead and congratulate? Well, I agree. I've been a Dave Rubin fan for

00:42:23.440 a long time. Um, he is a great interviewer and, um, it sounds like he and his husband are both great

00:42:28.800 people. Obviously I haven't met them personally. I don't have any questions about whether or not they

00:42:33.600 will be good fathers. I think that they're going to be stellar fathers. They cannot be a mother. 1.00

00:42:40.000 Neither of them can be a mother. They, to his credit, acknowledge that, you know,

00:42:44.880 in that long interview that he did with Jordan Peterson, he acknowledged we can't be a mother.

00:42:50.000 But what fascinates me is that they actually have had to have

00:42:54.400 an army of women to make up for the roles, um, and the missing gaps when it comes to the 1.00

00:43:00.880 women that they have excluded from this process. So they have purchased the eggs of a couple different

00:43:06.800 women throughout their different surrogacy attempts. Um, they are renting the womb of two different 1.00

00:43:11.280 women. Um, and there has been previous attempts as well. So they have paid several different women 0.54

00:43:15.760 for their wounds. Um, they've purchased the breast milk of several women so that they can have their

00:43:22.000 two industrial freezers of breast milk so that the baby can, um, benefit from not being formula fed.

00:43:27.920 They are going to have night nurses. They're going to have grandmothers. They are, you know, obviously,

00:43:31.760 Reuben is very close to his sister who he asked if she would be the surrogate and the genetic mother,

00:43:37.040 or at least the genetic mother, um, of the child. Their, uh, endeavor to create intentionally motherless

00:43:44.160 children has to borrow from the parts, from the female specific parts of several different women, eggs, 1.00

00:43:51.520 womb, breasts, and even the physical presence. Um, biology has made it very difficult to create

00:43:58.240 motherless children. Um, and only our modern technologies and a lot of money are able to 0.98

00:44:03.520 make it possible. Um, it's fascinating to me that Reuben in that conversation with Jordan Peterson

00:44:10.400 had a discussion about why they didn't adopt. And he said, well, there's just something so special

00:44:16.000 about a genetic connection. And, you know, Peterson absolutely validated that, right? When you look at

00:44:21.360 your kids and you can see not just your spouse or yourself, but your own parents or your siblings,

00:44:27.920 you look at that and you say, that is so precious. And that's why Dave and his husband,

00:44:32.560 David decided to each have a genetic child, because there was something they acknowledged

00:44:37.680 that was very special about seeing themselves reflected in their child. Now, the amazing thing

00:44:43.040 about this is all of this makes plenty of sense. If all that matters is what adults want,

00:44:49.120 but all of this is a very obvious violation of children's rights and well-beings. When you look at

00:44:55.040 it from the child's perspective, children long to know the biological identity of the woman whose

00:45:01.200 eggs they purchased, they're going to bond and have bonded with the woman that is gestating them.

00:45:06.960 It is her body. It's her milk. It's her voice. It's her smell that will soothe the child after

00:45:12.800 she's born. In fact, I've read testimonies of gay men who have procured children through surrogacy,

00:45:17.600 who cannot get the baby to calm down, even though, you know, they are the genetic fathers.

00:45:22.320 And only when the surrogate comes over and holds the baby, does the child calm because they have 1.00

00:45:27.120 an existing relationship. That just puts a lump in my throat.

00:45:31.840 Yeah. Like babies know their birth mothers, even though they may not be genetically related to them.

00:45:38.240 Babies long to be loved by a woman. Part of the things that we do at Them Before Us is we

00:45:42.720 catalog the stories of children who had two moms or two dads. They don't just want generic love.

00:45:47.840 They want maternal love and paternal love. And you can see this in what we call father hunger and

00:45:54.240 mother hunger. Children who are well loved by two dads very often experience mother hunger, 0.86

00:46:00.560 where they will go around to the women in their life, their aunts or their grandmothers or the nice

00:46:04.560 women at the daycare and say, will you be my mother? How about you? Will you be my mother? And 1.00

00:46:09.680 sometimes, you know, I follow these chats of gay men who have children and they'll say, gosh,

00:46:13.760 it's so weird. My kid has hit that stage where she's starting to call every woman mommy. And it's

00:46:18.160 like, there's no mommies in our world. Like most of the kids that we have around us are kids with

00:46:22.880 the gay dads too, but something inside of them longs to be loved by a woman. And so all of these 0.64

00:46:28.800 arrangements, right? When you look at it from the perspective of a child, they're losing the genetic

00:46:33.200 connection, right? Where the adults say, well, biology matters for me, but it cannot matter for

00:46:37.920 thee. They're losing the connection to their birth mother, right? The person they're bonding to.

00:46:42.560 They're losing the maternal presence in the home that they will probably long for every day.

00:46:50.320 And it's an injustice. And we can celebrate that these two babies that are born, that their life is

00:46:55.520 good and wonderful and valuable, but we cannot endorse and we cannot promote and we cannot validate

00:47:02.400 and we cannot legitimize processes that create intentionally motherless or fatherless children,

00:47:08.400 children who will likely go through the rest of their life with a lifelong mother wound or father wound.

00:47:25.680 So that genetic component, as you said, matters when a parent is looking in the face of their child,

00:47:31.040 but they're saying in this case that that genetic connection does not matter if the child is trying

00:47:37.360 to look into a face of a woman and find themselves. And I had never really thought about it exactly

00:47:43.760 like that. But as you said, we don't often look at these situations from the perspective of the child.

00:47:50.320 And I have Christians, Christians, every time I talk about surrogacy or every time I talk about this,

00:47:55.600 say that I am wrong, that I am mean for being against this. Why can't I just be happy? Well, aren't you pro-life?

00:48:05.840 Isn't this just bringing gay people and gay conservatives into like the pro-family movement?

00:48:12.380 Don't you want them to experience that? Why can't you just celebrate this? Why are you so hateful?

00:48:19.440 And they are never thinking about it from the rights and the well-being of a child. And they've also

00:48:24.720 sometimes bought into, I talked about with Dr. Brad Wilcox, the family diversity myth that the more

00:48:31.920 people are, as long as you're loved, you're fine. Or hey, and polyamorous relationships where you've got

00:48:38.080 three or four parents, whatever, that's just more people to love you. And so they just kind of delude

00:48:43.680 themselves into what we've been indoctrinated to think that love is love. And so the love of two

00:48:48.960 dads is the same thing as the love of your biological mom. And the science just says otherwise.

00:48:54.720 Well, and the stories of kids say otherwise. You know, chapter seven in our book is all about

00:49:00.400 third-party reproduction. It's all about children created through somebody else's sperm and somebody 0.66

00:49:05.060 else's egg. And we put about 30 stories in there. Read it. I dare you. I dare you

00:49:11.600 to read in their own words how these technologies, how the intentional separation from a genetic parent

00:49:18.000 impacted their sense of identity, their feelings of commodification, the discomfort that money

00:49:24.200 changed hands over their conception, the eeriness that they were treated like a build-a-bear,

00:49:30.560 a human build-a-bear, right? Like, read their stories. This is not a case of, you know, love does not

00:49:37.220 make a family when it comes to these kids and what it is that they're thinking about when they're

00:49:42.580 looking at their own life. That we know what children need to be safe and loved. We know

00:49:49.140 the major components needed for a stable identity when it comes to their development. And it is,

00:49:54.100 whenever possible, their own biological mom and dad raising them. And on the topic of surrogacy,

00:49:59.780 you are right that what we need to be as conservatives is we need to be the pro-child

00:50:06.740 party. That is what we need to be. We need to be the party that not only defends children's right

00:50:11.220 to life, but children's right to their mother and father. And on the topic of surrogacy,

00:50:16.740 that violates both. Surrogacy always involves IVF. IVF is not child-friendly technology. Only about 7%

00:50:24.420 of lab-created babies, babies created in vitro, in glass, will be born alive. The majority of them

00:50:30.740 are going to be discarded, spend their life in a freezer, deemed non-viable. They won't make the

00:50:35.620 grade the wrong sex. They won't survive the thaw. They won't survive the implantation. If they do 1.00

00:50:39.940 survive the implantation and there's too many of them or there's wrong sex, they will be selectively

00:50:44.340 reduced. That is abortion. That is standard language in surrogacy contracts. Surrogacy is not child-friendly.

00:50:51.300 IVF is not child-friendly. Add on top of that surrogacy. Surrogacy is not about babies.

00:50:56.420 Surrogacy is about on-demand designer babies shipped worldwide. It is the commodification of children.

00:51:02.980 And any conservative and especially any Christian has to stand against this. We have all of chapter

00:51:08.820 eight in our book about surrogacy. Read it, become an expert, and start to fight against it.

00:51:13.380 Yep. And most people simply have not thought about it. They just haven't thought about it. That was true of

00:51:17.780 me a few years ago. I hadn't thought about this. If you had asked me what I thought about it, I'd be

00:51:21.620 like, yeah, I don't know. Sure. It's funny. A lot of people, just because they haven't thought about

00:51:28.740 something, they assume that people who care about it are wrong or making a big deal of it. But I just

00:51:34.100 encourage you, if that's where you are, I understand because I've been there, just take some time to

00:51:38.540 educate yourself, especially through Katie. I've also had, if that comment about IVF shocked you, because

00:51:43.940 I find that it does shock a lot of people, a lot of Christian conservatives, go back and listen to,

00:51:49.780 of course, my episode that I did with Katie last year, but also I've done a couple episodes with

00:51:53.540 Jennifer Law. She talks about some of the ethical problems with IVF. And of course, this is not to

00:51:59.680 say that you who have used IVF aren't a wonderful mom or a wonderful dad or that your kids are not

00:52:05.480 valuable, made in the image of God. That's not about that at all. It's asking the questions that Katie

00:52:09.780 asks so well, what is the right of a child? What is best for the child? Not just what does mom and

00:52:16.840 dad want or what do two people want? So thank you, Katie. How can they find you and support you and

00:52:22.800 learn more about this subject that maybe they had never really thought about? Well, my nonprofit is

00:52:27.460 Them Before Us. So you can go to thembeforeus.com. Go to the bottom, subscribe, stay up on everything

00:52:33.460 that we've got going on there. This absolutely is the battle. We have to get this right. There's so

00:52:40.520 much moral confusion, even among the right, even among Christians when it comes to alternative

00:52:45.200 family structures. I think that we have in many ways, the alarm has gone off in terms of the

00:52:51.440 sexualization of children. Thank God. And we're willing to speak up and stand up and advocate on

00:52:57.140 their behalf. We also need to bring that kind of fire into the debate about marriage and family

00:53:01.760 because children are being victimized in these conversations, often under the name of love and

00:53:07.000 tolerance and acceptance. And it's just unacceptable. Children are precious. They have rights and they

00:53:13.780 need and deserve adults who are willing to stand up and speak on their behalf. Yes, definitely support

00:53:19.400 Them Before Us. Go check out their resources. They've got a lot on their website, but also make sure that

00:53:23.540 you read their book. Katie is an awesome follow. I love Katie, just what a fighter you are and how you

00:53:29.960 have helped me and educated me so much and inspired me on this topic over the last couple of years. I'm

00:53:36.260 just so thankful. So thanks for your courage and thanks for your clarity in continuing to equip people

00:53:42.060 to stand for the things that matter. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - October 20, 2022

Ep 695 ｜ Why Children's Rights Trump Adults' Feelings ｜ Guest： Katy Faust

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