Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - Ep 701 ｜ Progressive, Pro-Life, & Indicted by the DOJ ｜ Guest： Herb Geraghty

00:00:00.000 Herb Garrity is a pro-life activist who was just indicted by the DOJ for a nonviolent protest at

00:00:08.200 an abortion clinic in Pennsylvania. Herb is not your typical pro-lifer. He is an atheist, a

00:00:14.240 progressive, a board member at the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians, and an advocate

00:00:20.940 of social justice. We are as far apart as it gets on a variety of issues, and we will discuss some

00:00:28.000 of that today. But importantly, we agree on this issue, the right to life for human beings in the

00:00:34.520 womb. And so Herb and I are discussing all of this and more today. Before we get into that

00:00:40.360 conversation, I will give some context for his indictment that demonstrates that this is not

00:00:45.940 an isolated incident, but rather is a really disturbing, frightening pattern of the Biden

00:00:52.040 administration. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to

00:00:55.800 ranchers.com slash Allie. That's good ranchers.com slash Allie.

00:01:08.740 So let me give you a little bit of context here. This is from Herb's Give, Send, Go page.

00:01:14.480 On October 14th, 2022, Pittsburgh pro-life leader Herb Garrity was indicted and charged with violating

00:01:19.900 the FACE Act in connection with a nonviolent pro-life direct action that occurred in 2020 in

00:01:26.520 Washington, D.C. This comes as part of an aggressive campaign from the Biden administration's

00:01:31.280 Department of Justice under Merrick Garland to target peaceful pro-life activists. So far,

00:01:37.700 and this is true, what he says on his Give, Send, Go page, at least 22 anti-abortion activists have been

00:01:43.740 charged with the FACE Act this year. This is an even more, this is even more shocking because there have

00:01:49.640 been no arrests or charges brought against any of the individuals who firebombed, vandalized, and

00:01:55.880 otherwise attacked pro-life churches and pregnancy centers this summer. If convicted Herb and other

00:02:02.720 defendants, each face up to 11 years in prison, three years of supervised release, and a fine of up to

00:02:10.220 $260,000. There were 11 pro-life activists who were indicted by Biden's DOJ for protesting outside an

00:02:22.000 abortion clinic in Tennessee. This story is from Life News from October 5th, 2022. Several protesters

00:02:29.000 participated in a March 2021 event at the Mount Juliet, Tennessee abortion facility where they prayed

00:02:35.180 and sang in a hallway of a building that houses both the abortion company and other

00:02:40.020 medical businesses. They did not prevent people from getting into the businesses, into any of the

00:02:45.480 businesses in the building. On October 5th, 2022, the FBI raided a man named Chet Gallagher's home

00:02:52.580 while he was out of state and demanded his whereabouts from his family. Live action reported that the event

00:02:59.560 was peaceful with participants lining the inside of a hallway of a shared general medical office

00:03:05.600 building, praying, singing songs, hoping, trying to convince women to not abort their children. The other 1.00

00:03:15.780 individuals in this story were called by the FBI and told to turn themselves in. The FBI is not actually

00:03:21.780 performing these investigations. Instead, the DOJ is performing their own investigations. And each activist in this

00:03:29.640 case faces up to 10 years in prison. The FACE Act is a very obscure law that is not very often enforced.

00:03:40.160 And here we are actually seeing that it is being wrongly enforced because in many cases, these people

00:03:45.240 are not actually, they're not actually violating the law, which says that it is a crime to try to prevent

00:03:52.320 someone from accessing what they would call a reproductive health clinic. These people are very 0.51

00:03:59.940 often just peaceful protesters. Maybe they're sitting in front of a door. But by the way, even if that is

00:04:05.460 what they are doing, they are non-violently trying to inhibit the slaughter of unborn children. And so that

00:04:11.800 shouldn't be illegal. You'll also remember the story that we reported at the end of September about Mark

00:04:18.560 Hawk, who was arrested by the FBI. The FBI raided his home while his small children were in the home,

00:04:27.340 guns drawn on charges, that he assaulted an abortion clinic volunteer. You can go back and listen to that

00:04:33.100 episode. He was defending his child against a pro-abortion harasser who was saying vile, even sexual

00:04:41.820 things to his 12-year-old son. It was getting in his face. So Mr. Hawk, this pro-life activist,

00:04:47.920 pushed this man back away from his son as any rational parent would. And now he is facing federal

00:04:56.040 charges by the Biden DOJ, a non-violent pro-life activist. According to Fox News, over 100 pro-life

00:05:06.600 organizations, churches have been attacked since the Dobbs leak. At least 17 of the attacks have been claimed

00:05:14.000 by the left-wing pro-abortion group Jane's Revenge. No members of this group have been arrested. At

00:05:19.680 least 38 churches across the country have been firebombed, smashed, ransacked, or vandalized with

00:05:25.000 pro-abortion graffiti and threatening messages. At least 58 other pro-life clinics and organizations

00:05:30.360 suffered from the same fate. At least 23 other incidents involved pro-life individuals being

00:05:35.700 physically attacked or pro-abortion protesters being arrested. You'll remember there was an 84-year-old

00:05:41.840 volunteer, volunteering for Right to Life in Michigan. She was canvassing in a neighborhood

00:05:47.440 against the pro-abortion Prop 3 in Michigan that is up for vote in this November 8th election. She

00:05:55.780 survived, but she was shot in the back by one of the people that she was trying to talk to about

00:06:02.160 Proposal 3. There is a trend of violence against pro-lifers, not just among the citizenry,

00:06:10.680 that goes totally unpunished, but also by the government. And so you see how they have pro-lifers

00:06:17.660 sandwiched? How you can, with impunity, attack pro-lifers, pro-life pregnancy centers that are

00:06:23.860 doing the very work that the pro-choice side, the pro-abortion side says needs to be done or

00:06:31.680 that the pro-life side does not do, offering resources and offering tools and protection

00:06:40.140 and help to families who are in crisis, who are facing unplanned pregnancies. I mean, these people

00:06:47.120 at pro-life centers are doing thankless, sacrificial, incredible work on a daily basis for vulnerable

00:06:55.340 people. And what does the pro-abortion side do? They take your money, kill your baby, while firebombing

00:07:04.860 the centers that are actually trying to give women a choice. And so that's what's happening on one end.

00:07:12.340 And then on the other end, you have the government that is punishing non-violent pro-lifers trying to

00:07:21.340 save babies from slaughter and women from violence. So you can inflict violence against pro-lifers with

00:07:28.200 impunity, and then you get punished by the government if you are a peaceful pro-life protester

00:07:35.380 or activist. They are trying to make the cost of being against abortion as high as possible so fewer

00:07:42.300 and fewer people will want to pay it. Well, that's too bad because Christians have already counted the 1.00

00:07:49.080 cost. And we have, for all of church history, been a refuge for the vulnerable. We have been

00:07:55.500 willing to put our lives on the line for the sake of the vulnerable, for the sake of the victim. And

00:08:03.580 that is what pro-life activism is. And our guest today is not a Christian, and yet he is putting his 0.95

00:08:12.540 body, his freedom, his life on the line for the sake of the pre-born. And that should be really

00:08:19.120 convicting to a lot of Christians, especially the Christians who still think that it is possible to, 1.00

00:08:25.620 in good conscience, vote for the party that is advocating for not just violence against the

00:08:30.400 unborn, but also violence against pro-lifers and is enabling the violence against pro-lifers.

00:08:38.000 I mean, it should be really convicting that we are about to talk to a progressive atheist who is 0.93

00:08:43.480 doing more for the unborn than many professing Christians who simply just sit around all day 0.99

00:08:50.020 and complain that not enough is being done. So I hope that this conversation that we're about to

00:08:56.420 have, that it's convicting for you, that it's encouraging for you. We're going to have a little

00:09:01.000 bit of a gospel conversation. You're going to hear a little bit of our disagreement. And yet you will

00:09:06.540 also hear my deep and profound appreciation for this person's bravery, for his boldness,

00:09:14.320 and how I believe the Lord is working in and through him to protect the lives of unborn children.

00:09:21.840 Remember, people, we're a week out from elections. Elections have consequences. People voting for the

00:09:29.200 president who they thought would be a nice reprieve from mean tweets, who they thought would bring us

00:09:34.540 together, who they thought would be the unifier, was more empathetic, was moderate, was compassionate,

00:09:41.320 was maybe softer. He is the one sicking the DOJ on pro-lifers who are trying to protect children from

00:09:49.700 slaughter, even while doing nothing for the people that are actually inflicting the violence on unborn

00:09:54.840 children and those trying to protect them. That's what the vote for Biden got.

00:09:59.800 Just something to consider as you head to the polls next Tuesday.

00:10:15.180 Herb, thank you so much for joining us. Before we get started talking about everything that's going

00:10:20.120 on, can you just briefly tell us who you are and what you do?

00:10:23.560 Sure. My name is Herb Garrity. I am a pro-life activist. I believe in the right to life for every

00:10:31.740 single human being, regardless of their age, level of development, or anything else, including

00:10:39.580 circumstances post-conception and then birth. I currently run an organization called Rehumanize

00:10:47.720 International. I'm the executive director, and we embrace and advocate for a consistent life ethic.

00:10:53.420 Which means opposing violence against human beings, like I said, in all stages of their life and in

00:10:59.240 all circumstances. And so we work to abolish abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia,

00:11:06.340 as well as capital punishment and police brutality and war and torture and all forms of violence against

00:11:12.540 human beings.

00:11:13.780 I would love to hear more about what the work is that you're doing specifically, and then also how you

00:11:19.860 came to this place of wanting to organize an institution that is centered on rehumanizing

00:11:28.200 people and kind of how you came to the conclusion about life inside the womb. There's a lot of people

00:11:33.080 who agree with you about police brutality and agree about capital punishment, but would exclude

00:11:38.900 unborn children kind of from the list of people who need our compassion. So I'm definitely interested in

00:11:44.520 hearing more about that. But to start off, I do want to hear about the circumstance that you are currently

00:11:49.460 finding yourself in. I saw that you tweeted a thread on October 17th that said,

00:11:55.900 this past weekend I learned I was indicted on charges related to non-violent pro-life advocacy.

00:12:02.080 Thanks to everyone who reached out, I am doing all right. And then you kind of posted a thread that

00:12:07.420 explained a little bit about what is going on and kind of gave everyone perspective on this. So could

00:12:14.360 you tell us a little bit more about what happened? You were indicted on these charges related to the

00:12:20.720 FACE Act, like many other pro-life activists have been recently. Tell us what that was and what that was

00:12:28.060 like.

00:12:29.520 Yeah. Well, so interestingly, I found out about the indictment, not through my attorney or from the

00:12:36.140 government, I found out from the DOJ's Twitter account, literally like at civil rights, tweeted

00:12:43.260 Pennsylvania man indicted under the FACE Act. And so I clicked on it and I was like, oh, that is me.

00:12:49.360 That is you. Wow.

00:12:52.240 But that said, I sort of didn't, I didn't necessarily expect it, but I have understood that in this current

00:13:01.480 climate, we've seen the Biden administration using the Department of Justice to go after

00:13:07.600 non-violent pro-life activists. They had already indicted several of my friends on similar charges

00:13:14.960 related to this event. And they had a superseding indictment where they wanted to add me. And so now

00:13:23.420 I am facing up to 11 years in prison for non-violent defense of unborn lives.

00:13:31.940 Tell us what that non-violent act was, if you can, because the other side, if I'm to play devil's

00:13:38.940 advocate, would say, well, this is the law. There is the FACE Act that says that you cannot inhibit

00:13:44.980 someone's access to what they would call a reproductive health care center. And if you are 0.98

00:13:50.520 using your body or using force to block people from that access, then you violated the law and

00:13:55.980 you deserve what's coming to you. Are you able to say what the event was that you are being indicted

00:14:01.760 for? Were you forceful or violent in any way? So I can't make any comments about direct details,

00:14:10.620 but I can affirm what I've affirmed throughout my entire career, which is that I am committed

00:14:16.620 wholly to non-violence. And I believe that in that, being non-violent doesn't just mean

00:14:26.100 abstaining from violence. I think having a real commitment to non-violence also includes

00:14:33.060 trying to prevent violence from happening. And we know that abortion kills a human being.

00:14:40.820 And I think that I can't comment exactly about what happened on the day. You can read the indictment

00:14:48.440 for yourself. However, I think that as pro-life people, if we're going to say that we believe

00:14:56.000 that abortion is murder, which it is, then we need to act like it. And I think that what I'm accused of 1.00

00:15:03.540 is putting my body in between a killer and their victim.

00:15:10.340 And you're facing up to 11 years in prison. What has the process been since you found out

00:15:20.140 through Twitter that you were being indicted, finding out, I guess, what the punishment is

00:15:26.620 that you're facing? I mean, what has that been like?

00:15:31.040 So I thus far have been just scrambling to find a lawyer and to get my legal situation settled.

00:15:41.480 Thankfully, I wasn't actually arrested. They were able to allow me to come in to self-surrender.

00:15:48.560 And so I didn't have the experience like some people I know who's had their door busted down by

00:15:54.500 gents. So I'm very grateful for that. But thus far, it's been trying to figure out what my next

00:16:01.740 steps are. I've been very grateful from the support of the pro-life community who have not

00:16:08.460 abandoned us because it's not just me. It's now over 20 pro-life activists who have been

00:16:16.100 indicted under the FACE Act or on similar charges. Because it's something that's so interesting is that

00:16:23.300 it's not just the FACE Act. I'm charged with that. But we're all also charged with conspiracy to deny

00:16:29.800 rights, which to me is just so ironic because we know that abortion is not a right. There is no right

00:16:40.080 to kill an unborn child. There never was. And now, post the Dobbs decision in a post-Roe v. Wade world,

00:16:46.720 we know that legally that's true as well, that there is certainly not a right to an abortion.

00:16:52.740 So the idea that myself or any of the co-defendants were violating someone else's civil rights

00:17:01.180 is just completely ridiculous.

00:17:04.220 And what are your feelings? What have your emotions been like? I mean,

00:17:07.960 facing the potential of 11 years in prison, that's a really big deal. I've got to imagine

00:17:16.060 that there have been at least some moments of fear as you consider that prospect.

00:17:24.000 Yeah, no, absolutely. I am terrified. I think that I've been really, I've been heartened by the

00:17:30.900 response of the pro-life community. I have been not surprised by the response of the pro-abortion

00:17:36.720 community, particularly people on Twitter. My DMs are like flooded.

00:17:42.100 Just celebrating?

00:17:43.600 Yeah, celebrating. I was particularly really excited about the fact that I may get sexually

00:17:50.260 assaulted in prison. That's like the main theme of my direct messages. And so obviously, like it's

00:17:58.040 horrible and concerning. And I think that this is an injustice against pro-life activists.

00:18:07.400 But more importantly, when I actually think about it, I'm reminded that whatever the government does

00:18:13.440 to me, they throw me away, lock me in a cell for 11 years. I'm hoping it's not that long if I am

00:18:19.900 convicted. But whatever they do to me, it's nothing compared to what they allow abortionists to do to 0.70

00:18:26.380 unborn children. Every day in this country, babies are being killed. Like pro-life people know that,

00:18:31.760 right? We know the apologetics. We know that abortion kills human babies through either poisoning,

00:18:38.200 starvation, or live dismemberment. And many of us, we just sit back. Myself, I live a couple blocks

00:18:46.180 away from an abortion clinic. I know that that is a business where they're taking women who are just 1.00

00:18:53.460 in desperate circumstances and convincing them that they need to pay them hundreds or thousands of dollars

00:18:59.940 to kill their unborn babies through very violent, gruesome means. And as pro-life people, I just

00:19:07.900 walk by that clinic sometimes. And it makes me sad. And I do activism. And I try to stop it.

00:19:14.380 But I think that it's hard to get people to take us seriously that we really believe

00:19:19.600 the truth that abortion is murder if we're not willing to put our freedom on the line to defend

00:19:26.580 those victims. Yep. And there is obviously, as you are seeing now, a very high cost to putting that

00:19:34.320 freedom on the line. What does it look like if you're able to say from here forward? I mean,

00:19:42.920 what does the trial look like? What does it look like before conviction? I know that you said that

00:19:49.740 you're lawyering up and you're figuring out your legal options. Do you know what the timeline is?

00:19:54.900 Yeah, we have a proposed trial for August of 2023. And so that's kind of my next that I that's all I

00:20:08.520 know. Until then, I, I've been released on recognizance, I don't need to, you know, serve

00:20:15.320 this time in jail as long as I meet my pretrial conditions, which include like, I had to give them

00:20:22.360 my passport, I'm not allowed to leave the country, as well as not allowed to communicate with any of

00:20:27.620 the co-defendants, which has been difficult, because some of these co-defendants, I mean, they're,

00:20:32.900 they're my best friends. They're people who I've done pro-life and anti-death penalty and anti-war

00:20:37.480 organizing with for five, 10 years, some of them. And so I'm just completely cut off from, from them.

00:20:44.460 So that's been quite difficult. But we're, we're working, the work still continues, right?

00:20:51.460 Just because I can't text my friend Lauren doesn't mean that I don't know that both of us are outside

00:20:56.980 of the respective abortion clinics in our cities, serving, serving the women going in there. And so

00:21:03.520 I think it's scary. I think that pro-life people should be pretty seriously concerned about the

00:21:11.120 way that the Biden administration is using the Department of Justice, and really attacking and

00:21:18.340 trying to silence and isolate pro-life activists who are effective at saving lives. But I think what

00:21:26.160 pro-life people should be more concerned about than my legal struggles is the fact that still post-obbs,

00:21:32.340 thousands of babies are being killed in this country every day. And we just need to take that

00:21:37.700 seriously as a culture. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the fact that as you're

00:21:54.940 describing your pre-trial conditions, I mean, we're supposed to be innocent until we're proven guilty,

00:22:01.000 but it kind of sounds like we're just kind of curtailing due process and assuming some guilt.

00:22:08.220 I mean, you're not allowed to leave the country. You're not allowed to talk to your friends. That

00:22:12.000 means some of your freedoms have been taken away. But as you mentioned, I mean, if you want to look

00:22:16.640 at a group of people whose due process rights, whose primary right to life is violated on a daily basis,

00:22:24.280 who is basically given the death penalty for committing the crime of being conceived,

00:22:30.140 that is unborn children. So it seems like that is the perspective that you keep at the forefront,

00:22:34.940 that even though the prospect of 11 years in prison and everything involved in that,

00:22:40.360 and even if you don't go to prison, you've already lost some freedoms, it seems like you are keeping in

00:22:46.280 perspective that the loss of rights and the loss of life that is experienced by unborn children every day

00:22:53.060 is worse. It's graver than what you're going through. And it is worth the sacrifices that

00:23:01.680 you're making if it means that you are saving the lives of unborn children.

00:23:06.780 Yeah, absolutely. Because think about it. The worst case scenario here is that I am sentenced to 11

00:23:12.100 years in prison. If one person gets to live 70, 80 years of their life because of that sacrifice,

00:23:19.340 then it sucks. I'm not looking forward to it. But I think I have to think it's worth it.

00:23:27.660 And you said that the response from the pro-life community has been great. There are a lot of

00:23:33.300 people listening to this who are pro-life who are just now hearing your story for the first time,

00:23:37.800 and they want to know how they can support you. So what can they do to support you during this process?

00:23:43.100 Yeah. Well, so first, I would say if you are pro-life, I encourage you first before you start

00:23:50.120 being concerned about myself and the other defendants is to get out there and serve the

00:23:54.520 actual women and pregnant people in your community that might be considering abortion, even if you live

00:24:00.820 somewhere that has already banned many abortions. It's still happening in our communities.

00:24:07.040 And so we need to be out there. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. What does that look like? We talk a lot about

00:24:13.420 pregnancy centers here, and you said that you're out there on a daily basis advocating in front of

00:24:18.380 these pregnancy centers. So what would that look like? Yeah. So I think that the first step that any

00:24:25.240 pro-life person can do if you live within, I don't know, 50 miles of an abortion clinic or somewhere that

00:24:31.660 is not providing abortions, but referring for abortions, like many Planned Parenthoods in states

00:24:38.520 that have banned some abortions have transferred into. Standing outside those clinics, Sidewalk Advocates

00:24:45.900 for Life of America has a great program. Much of their materials are available online that you can

00:24:52.120 print out. And just being outside of that clinic peacefully, non-violently, and offering resources.

00:25:02.140 Most, if you have an abortion clinic around you, you absolutely have a pro-life pregnancy center

00:25:06.600 around you as well. And so you can let people going in there know about other non-violent healthcare

00:25:16.120 services that are available to them, typically free or low cost. I know so, so many people who have

00:25:23.420 gotten abortions who have told me if there was just one person outside on the sidewalk that day

00:25:29.860 that had the message that you can do it, you can choose life, there will be support for you,

00:25:37.400 they wouldn't have felt like abortion was their only option. Because for so many pregnant people,

00:25:43.400 especially young people, students, everyone in their life is telling them that abortion is their

00:25:48.440 only option. And of course, the abortion doctor is selling them this lie, because they get to profit

00:25:57.360 off of it. And so of course, anyone inside that clinic is not going to have their best interests

00:26:02.700 in mind, and certainly not the best interests of their child. And so being there as an advocate,

00:26:07.300 my website has some resources that you can find. It's rehumanizeintl.org slash sidewalk-advocacy.

00:26:16.020 You can just find it on the website. That has printouts that has little flyers that just explain,

00:26:22.180 you know, if you're pregnant, you deserve to know these things. And it discusses both what abortion

00:26:28.640 does, as well as provides resources, both national and local, for people who are in that situation.

00:26:37.640 And so I think that's the first thing that pro-lifers can do. I think there's a lot of

00:26:40.960 different types of activism that you can do as pro-lifer. You can volunteer at a pregnancy center,

00:26:46.120 or you can attend the March for Life, or you can work for legislative change. But in my opinion,

00:26:52.260 being outside of the actual abortion clinics is crucial because it's not just voting for someone

00:26:59.960 who might grant an unborn child rights one day down the line. It's actually meeting that person,

00:27:07.740 that pregnant person, and their child on that day that they might be scheduled to be killed.

00:27:13.680 And I think that pro-life people need to take seriously what is happening in this country.

00:27:18.660 And I think that we need to step up and be there to be that village so that no one feels,

00:27:25.640 again, like abortion is their only option. Because so many of the people who I know who

00:27:29.480 have gotten abortions, whether they're pro-choice or pro-life, say that's how they felt,

00:27:33.980 that they just, there was no choice. Abortion was the only choice for them. And we know that doesn't

00:27:39.200 have to be the case, that we can be there to provide real holistic choices for women that do not 0.97

00:27:45.760 include violence against an unborn child. Yes. Well, I'm very thankful for how you're able to 1.00

00:27:53.140 articulate the value of life inside the womb and why that should immediately equal human rights.

00:28:00.580 All human beings are entitled to human rights. And if babies inside the womb are humans, then of course

00:28:06.380 they are also entitled to the same rights that you and I are. I'm so curious from a non-Christian,

00:28:14.420 non-religious perspective, how you have landed at this. People can probably hear from your language,

00:28:21.860 you have said pregnant person, which is not something that we would say, that you and I

00:28:27.080 differ on a lot of things politically, culturally, socially, and yet we agree on this very important

00:28:34.000 thing. And I come at it from a different angle. I have a different way that I landed here. So I'm

00:28:40.120 interested to hear you kind of describe what it was like to either become pro-life or if you've

00:28:46.040 always been pro-life, how you have worked through that and landed in such a confident place.

00:28:54.360 Yeah, I think that, well, first I'll say that I do say pregnant people partially because I really do

00:29:02.540 believe that women are people. And so they are included in that group as well as people who

00:29:08.340 have the capacity to get pregnant, who do not identify as women. They may identify as trans men

00:29:13.640 or non-binary or whatever they want. I think it's important to use inclusive language when we're

00:29:18.980 talking about pregnancy in the pro-life context, because I have known people who are pregnant and

00:29:25.040 do not identify as women. And if they feel as though I'm about to get in some sort of ontological 0.96

00:29:30.980 debate with them about the nature of gender, they are much less interested in hearing me out as I'm

00:29:37.540 pleading for the life of their unborn child. And so, yeah, I'll call you they them if that means that

00:29:45.660 you're going to hear us out and willing to take these resources we have to offer you.

00:29:52.180 Well, we could spend the next hour debating and discussing that. People probably know who are

00:30:00.560 listening to this exactly what I think about that. But I do want to focus on, you know, if we can,

00:30:07.520 what we absolutely agree on. And that is the value of life inside the womb. So tell me kind of how

00:30:14.280 you're an atheist, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So tell me about that, because in from my perspective,

00:30:22.120 science can tell us when life begins, but it doesn't tell us when life is valuable.

00:30:25.820 So what has that looked like for you ethically and philosophically?

00:30:30.780 Yeah. So I think that I don't consider myself a very philosophical person to begin with. I think

00:30:38.780 that, you know, when I was a kid, I, like all of us, learned about historic evils, like the Holocaust 0.92

00:30:47.940 and slavery and, you know, all types of evils against human beings. And at that point, I was not really

00:30:54.480 religious. I've never, I've never really bought into any one religion. And so, but when I learned

00:31:03.580 about the Holocaust, I was horrified by it. Right. And I think that even, I think that people who learn

00:31:10.980 about it and who are not religious are equally horrified. And I think even religious people are

00:31:15.180 not necessarily thinking that, you know, some historic injustice was bad because, you know, human

00:31:22.500 beings are made in the image and likeness of God. It can just be bad because we believe in some sort

00:31:29.600 of idea of human rights and equality. And so for me, abortion is not, it's not a religious issue

00:31:37.620 because I'm not religious. However, I think that the killing of all human beings, the violence against

00:31:44.240 human beings is something that people can oppose regardless of their religious or political

00:31:51.360 ideology. I think that that should be something that is common sense, that we don't hurt people

00:31:58.760 for the same reasons that we are horrified to learn about historic injustice. When we learn about modern

00:32:04.620 injustice, whether it's in the form of imperialist war making or the death penalty or abortion, we should 1.00

00:32:11.380 be spurred to speak out on it and to act for the victims of injustice. And so I just, I really,

00:32:18.280 I don't know. I do not think that the abortion issue should be an exclusively religious issue.

00:32:26.240 And I think it's really interesting because people ask me all the time, like, if you're an atheist,

00:32:31.480 then why are you anti-abortion? But they never asked me that for any of the other things that I

00:32:37.560 also care about. No one ever says, you know, if you're an atheist, you know, then why would you

00:32:43.800 oppose the death penalty? They can just understand that people who are not religious can still believe 0.99

00:32:49.800 in human rights and justice. And I think that that is what I wish that pro-life people would sometimes

00:32:57.820 be better at communicating. Because I think a lot of people in my generation hear pro-life and they

00:33:05.060 think that that implies, you know, an opposition to, you know, premarital sex or same-sex marriage,

00:33:14.540 or like we just mentioned, gender ideology issues. And I think that for me, it doesn't at all. For me,

00:33:22.340 being pro-life is because I support non-violence and because I support social justice. And so I think

00:33:29.500 that there's a communication issue because all of the conservative pro-lifers I know believe

00:33:34.960 the same things as I do about abortion, that it's violence and that it is an injustice. But I think

00:33:40.340 that we have a communication issue sometimes where people don't understand that the reason that

00:33:45.920 most pro-life people are against abortion is because it kills a baby. Like people just do not

00:33:51.660 get that sometimes. And so that's what I've been trying to, that's what I've been trying to

00:33:55.720 communicate with them.

00:34:07.680 And of course, I wish there were more atheists and even progressives, even if I disagreed on

00:34:14.340 every other issue. You and I disagree on a lot of issues I'm hearing as you were explaining it. And

00:34:19.920 yeah, I am so glad that we are united on an issue that is literally a matter of life and death

00:34:26.160 for innocent, defenseless people. And if I can just, in case there are people who are listening

00:34:31.540 to this or watching this who don't know my perspective as a Christian, what I would say,

00:34:39.140 how I land on it is, yes, science tells us when life begins. Science tells us what a human being is.

00:34:45.880 And science can tell us a lot of things about how the world works and what the nature is of all

00:34:54.080 things, including humans. But science doesn't tell us why the life inside the womb matters more than

00:35:01.800 a mother's decision, matters more than what a doctor wants, matters more than what the law says. 0.97

00:35:07.860 Really, the only way that I can get to this idea that human beings aren't just clumps of cells,

00:35:14.020 that were not just accidental, you know, clumps of matter that just happened to develop throughout

00:35:22.760 time from, you know, a bang in the cosmos. The only way that I can get to this idea that human beings

00:35:30.440 are innately valuable and therefore are entitled to inherent rights that the government does not have

00:35:37.420 the right to give or take away is if there is a creator and an authority whose power and who say

00:35:46.040 so is transcendent, is bigger than a government, is bigger than human beings who gave us those rights

00:35:52.760 and therefore the state or a government cannot take them away because they were given to us by a creator

00:35:59.120 and by an authority that is higher than them. And then there's also the issue of just right and wrong.

00:36:05.160 I think a lot of people say, well, of course it's wrong to commit violence against a person. Of

00:36:10.020 course it's wrong to commit evil against someone. Of course, all of these atrocities throughout

00:36:15.760 history are wrong. But I don't think that's of course. I think that there are a lot of people

00:36:21.380 throughout history who would disagree with that. I think Pol Pot would have disagreed with that. 0.85

00:36:25.120 I think Hitler would have disagreed with that. I think a lot of people disagree on when violence

00:36:30.260 is okay. I think the only way that we can get to an objective right and wrong that, hey, abortion is

00:36:37.260 wrong because it kills an innocent person and innocent people, all people have value, is, from my opinion,

00:36:45.360 going back to a creator of truth, a creator of morality, a giver of rights, a giver of value.

00:36:53.040 If there is no source of those things, it's hard for me to understand how we can say that they

00:36:58.780 even objectively universally exist. Does that make sense?

00:37:04.040 Yeah, no, trust me. I have heard that argument or that rationale for why we should be anti-abortion

00:37:11.380 a million times from pro-life Christians. And I'm just not very evangelical about my atheism. I don't

00:37:18.960 really care if other people believe in God or don't. I think that I welcome people who have

00:37:27.460 diverse opinions about the nature of the universe and the nature of rights or objectivity in general.

00:37:36.040 And so I'm happy to work with Christians who come from that point of view, as well as I know

00:37:41.880 several Jewish and Muslim people who are also anti-abortion and can cite their faith for some

00:37:49.560 of their beliefs. But I think for me, whenever I hear that, it just seems very circular. I think

00:37:57.880 that it's reasonable.

00:38:00.000 Is it any less circular than saying violence is bad because it is?

00:38:03.860 Oh, certainly. And I'm not saying. Yeah, no, sure. But I'm just saying mine doesn't lie on

00:38:12.000 that to me has has remained unproven, the existence of a God. Like, I think when I hear this

00:38:21.400 argument for objectivity, needing a creator, I'm interested. If you can show me that creator,

00:38:28.300 then that sounds like a good argument. But I've looked and I've looked and I am still wholly

00:38:35.080 unconvinced by what Christianity has to offer, as well as Islam and Judaism that I have not looked

00:38:44.820 into that much. But, you know, I've skimmed the Bible and it seems like there's a lot of great

00:38:50.560 messages in it, but I'm just not convinced of its literal reality or the existence of a deity that I

00:38:58.040 can't say. I can't see. But again, I'm not evangelical about this. I welcome people who

00:39:03.140 believe in God.

00:39:03.940 Get the feeling that you are. I'm not I don't think that you're trying to convince me of your

00:39:08.200 atheism. I just wanted to make sure that people understand, you know, where I'm coming from as

00:39:14.780 well. I do think a lot of people say, well, you don't have to be religious to be pro-life. And

00:39:20.680 obviously, that's true. You're not religious and you're pro-life. To me, it does go back to human

00:39:26.260 beings being made in the image of God. And I do just want to say like one more, just just one more

00:39:33.120 thing, because I'm just so thankful for you. I'm thankful for your boldness. I am thankful for your

00:39:37.840 clarity. I am thankful for the perspective that you have that you might not be a Christian, yet you

00:39:43.680 understand something that Jesus told Christians to do. And that is count the cost. Count the cost. 0.90

00:39:49.120 He says, before you follow me, because it's going to cost you a lot. It might cost you your friends.

00:39:53.780 It might cost you your freedom. It might cost you your family. And yet, Jesus says that it is worth

00:39:59.620 it. And while what you're doing now isn't following Jesus, you have counted the cost of your sacrifice

00:40:06.060 and of your activism. And you have determined that even at great loss to you, that it is worth it.

00:40:12.440 So you might not be a follower of Christ. And yet, there is, whether you know it or not,

00:40:19.800 it's a Christian nature, I believe, to what you are doing from my perspective. And I think that that

00:40:28.480 is amazing. And I am going to be praying for you and supporting you from afar.

00:40:34.380 One other thing that I want to say, because I am a Christian, you're not evangelical about your

00:40:50.800 atheism. I am evangelical about my Christianity. And my determination is not to change your mind,

00:40:57.280 but there are tens of thousands of people watching. So you said that you don't know what

00:41:02.100 Christianity has to offer. And I'm sure you've heard this, as you said, a thousand times before,

00:41:06.940 because you work with a lot of Christians. I find it much more irrational to look at the world 1.00

00:41:13.380 and to look at human beings and to look at gestation and to say, that all happened as a

00:41:18.780 matter of chance. I find that it actually requires a lot more faith to believe that. And I need a lot

00:41:24.320 more evidence to believe that that came from nothing than I do that there is an intelligent designer

00:41:28.860 and creator that purposely created and designed all of those things. That is, to me, a lot more

00:41:34.880 rational. And then if that's true, then of course, the rest follows that how do we know this God? How

00:41:40.520 do we get to this God? What is right and wrong if there's a creator of it? What is our purpose? What

00:41:45.900 is our calling if there's a creator and a giver of life and a giver of purpose? And of course, I believe

00:41:51.860 that the only way to that God is through Christ and that he reconciles us to that God and gives us our

00:42:00.200 purpose and gives us our satisfaction. And so I don't know if you'll ever land there and if that's

00:42:06.960 ever where your mind will go. Regardless, I appreciate what you do and how you set an example for Christians

00:42:15.580 and non-Christian to like. Thank you. Yeah, no, I mean, sometimes I hear from Christians that they,

00:42:22.420 I think overwhelmingly people have the same attitude that you do, that you're happy that I'm in this

00:42:27.960 fight. But I've heard from some people that they don't want to work with people like me, people with

00:42:34.080 my beliefs and people with my identities and lack of faith. And to me, that always just seems so

00:42:42.580 so counterproductive to me because I think that this issue really matters. And I think that we

00:42:47.840 need everyone on board. But I'll say if you are a Christian who doesn't want an atheist or someone 0.87

00:42:54.300 who affirms LGBT people to be sort of the face of the pro-life movement, which I certainly am not,

00:43:02.920 but I'm getting a little bit of attention for this right now, then go out and do more than me.

00:43:08.120 Go and take all of the attention you possibly can away from me because you are just doing so,

00:43:13.240 so much for the unborn that no one cares what, you know, the atheist liberals are doing anymore.

00:43:19.480 And I think that that's, that's my message. Like if you, I think that I've heard Christians say,

00:43:25.300 like, I'm embarrassed that I'm not doing more if, you know, an atheist cares more about this than me.

00:43:30.720 Um, and I don't think that everyone caring needs to look exactly the same, but I think that most

00:43:37.380 people can do more for the unborn in this country. Yes. No, honestly, I think that is absolutely true.

00:43:43.980 If you're going to criticize someone who is in the fight because they don't align with your beliefs,

00:43:49.620 then maybe you should be the one out there putting your body on the line. Maybe you should be the one

00:43:55.960 who is making headlines for that. Um, and I, I would agree that if Chris, if an atheist is doing 1.00

00:44:03.240 more than Christians, the Christians who are told that we should be giving everything to love our

00:44:08.540 neighbor, then I would say that is a problem. So that's why I say you are setting an example for 1.00

00:44:14.440 Christians and non-Christians alike. I appreciate that for every life that you saved, whether you go

00:44:20.880 to prison or not, I am praising God for. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

00:44:27.240 Can you tell everyone again, how they can help you and also how they can find out more about

00:44:32.300 Rehumanize International? Yeah, you can find out more about Rehumanize International on our website,

00:44:39.160 rehumanizeintl.org. We're also on every social media at RehumanizeINTL. Um, to find me,

00:44:46.300 you can just find me on Twitter at Herb Garrity. Um, I also have a give, send, go link for my,

00:44:52.440 uh, my legal defense. It's just give, send, go.com slash Herb. If you are interested in giving to that,

00:44:59.200 that would be extremely appreciated, but any support, um, I, I will take.

00:45:06.180 Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

00:45:10.220 All right. Thank you.

00:45:11.280 All right, guys. Hope you enjoyed that conversation. Make sure that you support Herb

00:45:18.560 however you can. And like I said, I'm going to be praying for him and I hope you will be too.

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00:46:18.320 Now, last announcement. Election night, you guys know, is next Tuesday. The stakes are super high.

00:46:24.440 I know we say that every election, but that's because it's true. Stakes are really high. I think

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00:47:15.720 We'll be back here tomorrow.

Relatable with Allie Beth Stuckey - November 01, 2022

Ep 701 ｜ Progressive, Pro-Life, & Indicted by the DOJ ｜ Guest： Herb Geraghty

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