Ep 703 ｜ Envy & Porn： Trans Violence Against Women ｜ Guest： Genevieve Gluck (Part 2)
Episode Stats
Words per minute
161.0026
Harmful content
Misogyny
22
sentences flagged
Hate speech
25
sentences flagged
Summary
A man who identifies as a woman is on trial for murdering two women and their son, and under California law, he will be sentenced to time in women s prison. In Norway, a man is being praised by the media for identifying not just as a women, but as a disabled woman in a wheelchair, even though he is fully capable of walking. Here to break all of this down for us and tell us what s going on behind it is our guest from yesterday, Genevieve Gluck.
Transcript
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In California, a man who identifies as a woman is on trial for murdering two women and their son,
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and under California law, he will be sentenced to time in women's prison. In Norway, a man is
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being praised by Norwegian media for identifying not just as a woman, but as a disabled woman in
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a wheelchair, even though he is fully capable of walking. Here to break all of this down for us
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and tell us what's going on behind it is our guest from yesterday, Genevieve Gluck. This is part two
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of our conversation. Go back and listen to that episode from yesterday if you haven't already.
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Also, if you appreciate this podcast, please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen.
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slash Allie. All right. Here is our conversation with Genevieve Gluck.
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Tell us a little bit about this Dana Rivers trial. I hadn't heard of this until you sent it, actually.
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Yeah, this is huge, in my opinion. A lot of us feminists in my camp have been waiting for this
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trial for five years, I think. But basically, it involves a man who goes by Dana Rivers, who
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identifies as a woman. He identifies as a lesbian woman, I believe. But he is on trial now for the
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triple homicide of two women, a lesbian couple and their son. And he was found fleeing the scene. This
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was in 2016. He was found fleeing the scene of the crime with blood on him, with brass knuckles. He had
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set fire to the house, allegedly, because again, he's not convicted. But there was arson. And these women
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who were murdered were regular attendees, it's been said, of Mishfest, which was an all-women's music
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festival. Actually, Mishfest, the historical importance of this, and the group Camp Trans that
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Dana Rivers was involved in. I'm only beginning to understand how important this is historically. But
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anyway, Rivers was lobbying against the women-only policy for the Mishfest organization.
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And the Camp Trans would go outside of the festival and picket and harass them. In some cases,
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there were stories of members of Camp Trans going in and vandalizing their property. Writing apparently
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wrote a message like, real women have crimes along the walls. Things like this, basically just kind of
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terrorizing the women who wanted to keep their women-only space. But Dana Rivers was actually
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a prominent trans activist prior to this. So he was fired, or not technically fired, but sort of let go
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from his job as a teacher in the early 2000s, I believe. And the reason for that was because he had
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started to do his medical transition, the surgery, but he was openly discussing this with children in
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his classes and had even brought up being sodomized as a child and telling children about rape and his
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own genital surgeries. So the board decided to kind of let him go, as it were. He wasn't officially fired,
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but they didn't renew his contract. And that led to a jumping off point where he then used that to
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become an activist. And yeah, so he had a platform. He was speaking publicly. And then this murder
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occurred in 2016. We're now starting to hear from the trial that allegedly he was involved in a
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biker gang that one of the women was involved in for a brief time. So there's an implication that he
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might have been doing this out of some form of act of revenge against them. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. And
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it's kind of, I mean, I guess it's not crazy that we're not hearing more about this. Obviously,
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some media is reporting on it. Daily Mail is reporting on it, uses she, her pronouns,
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which is like very confusing and seems to bury the lead a little bit. But also, I mean, I could see
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some people talking about how this is racialized violence because of who the victims were and their
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race. But it's so interesting how the intersectionality power structure changes when
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transgenderism is involved. All of a sudden, that becomes the most protected identity before black,
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before gay, before female, before anything else. If it involves a trans person, it seems like the
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mainstream media won't honestly report on it. Interesting how that hierarchy has worked out.
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I wonder, I mean, I wonder what's going to happen in this case. Do you think, I mean,
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well, you might have already mentioned this, and I just didn't catch it. But is this person going to
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be in a female prison? He already has been. So he has been. Okay, got it. Got it. So yeah. So that's
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the problem, right? So if, if he is found guilty, there are, I think, many women who would feel,
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you know, justice has been done, except that that can't be the case, because then he would be housed
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in a women's prison. So there's no justice here. Wow. Is there any chance you think that he could be
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in a male prison because of his past? I don't believe so. No, we're talking about California.
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So I don't think so. Right. And for people who don't know, I mean, this is something that is
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common, especially in those deep blue states, for men who even have a history of child sexual abuse,
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a history of sexual abuse of women, of violence against women, they are regularly housed in female
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prisons, right? Yes. And resulting in absolute horror for these women, even resulting in rape in
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some cases. So yeah. And that's why the language game that I think most of the media plays is so
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confusing, because when this is reported on that a female inmate was impregnated by another female
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inmate, you have a lot of people scratching their heads and wondering, well, how in the world
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did that happen? That's why, I mean, it's all so stupid. We have just allowed ourselves to just
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spiral into, into the stupidity that is gender ideology, that we can't even report things that
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are affecting vulnerable women. I mean, you almost wonder if it's by design. I mean, I certainly do
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sometimes. We're not even supposed to, we can't even refer to ourselves as women, according to this
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ideology anymore, because we're supposed to say cis women. So that anytime we're trying to think of
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ourselves, we can't even think of ourselves without thinking of, of these men. Yeah. If we follow their
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terminology, right, I would have to say, Oh, yes, you know, I have to think, okay, I'm cis. So I'm not
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that. And then we keep seeing the erasure of the word woman from all sorts of things. And instead being
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replaced with terms like a menstruator, birthing bodies, uterus havers, vagina owners, it's so
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degrading. Yes. I was thinking about this the other day that women really do get it from both sides.
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For the women who call themselves men, we have to be called menstruators and uterus havers and
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birthing people. That's for the women who have decided that they are men who still have the
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capacity to get pregnant. And then for the men who identify as women, we have to include them
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in our spaces. We can't even say that while women have vaginas or women have a uterus, like we're not
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even allowed to say that for the men who identify as women. So both for the people who identify as men
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and the actual men who identify as women, we who are actually women are the ones who have to
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compromise our language in our space in our own identity in order to accommodate these people who
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are confused. So those of us who aren't confused have to accommodate our clarity and who we are
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for their sake. And you just don't see see this really for men. I mean, yes, like I said,
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there are women who identify as men, but they're not trying to get onto men's sports teams. They're
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not trying to go to their bathrooms. They're not trying to infiltrate their locker rooms.
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They're not trying to degrade their language and their identity. And as you said, it's really hard
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not to see that as purposeful. I saw the most shocking thing out of Norway. Norway has some really
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shocking cases going on at the moment. One example of that being a woman who's being investigated and
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facing up to three years in prison, uh, just for saying that men cannot be lesbians and men cannot
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be mothers. I'm not kidding. Three years in prison for a hate speech, uh, crime. This was all just on
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Twitter, by the way, this was a series of tweets. She didn't actually say this to anybody's face
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either. It was just tweets. Um, and her name is Christina Ellingson and she's been, you know,
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very brave and talking about this and trying to get more attention to this, the problems with this law
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in Norway. But the really shocking case that I mentioned, I want to explain about in Norway was,
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um, I noticed there was this programmer who he was making, um, a video game basically that revolved
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around killing women, um, that he called TERFs. Uh, but when I started to look into him, he,
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he was in a women's, uh, locker room a few years ago. Uh, a woman complained that he was in there,
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um, because obviously he was using the showers and he's a man. Um, she complained to the management,
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um, he returned a few months later and she complained again. And she was saying,
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you know, she was actually trying to be polite and saying, I don't mind if you're here as long
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as you don't, as long as you don't use the showers. Um, but then what happened was she was
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investigated. Actually, he filed a suit against her for discrimination and nearly won. He nearly
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won. They actually, in their decision to throw out the discrimination suit, they chastised her,
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um, and said that it fit the bill for discrimination, but they weren't going to pursue it.
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Wow. Wow. I mean, how backwards can things possibly get always at the expense of women and
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children? Um, let's stay on Norway for just a second. And this is kind of the last thing that
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we have time for. Although I really could talk to you about these things for the next three hours.
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Um, there, this is the headline in Redux. Norwegian man now identifies as a disabled woman,
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uses wheelchair almost all the time. I mean, it's almost tiresome how ridiculous this stuff is. Um,
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this person goes by the name of, I don't really know how to pronounce it,
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Jorand Victoria Almay, um, said that he had always wished that he had been born a woman
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and was highlighted, I think, positively by Norwegian media as kind of an activist.
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But some of the stuff that I've seen you guys uncover, I think Anna maybe uncovered,
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it was on, um, I think he posted on Reddit that he was actually, um, originally he started this
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identity as being disabled in a wheelchair because he was turned on by amputees. Like he was turned on
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by this idea of being a disabled woman. And that's how he came to identify as a disabled woman. So
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break this absolutely beyond parody, but also scary, sad story down for us.
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So yeah, it is tremendously sad, uh, story. Um, he, so he's happily was happily married,
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I suppose with his wife of something of like 30 years, they're still together. Um, and, uh,
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yeah, so she, uh, she, uh, she was, she was diagnosed with cancer and then he started coming out with,
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with this cross-dressing fetish, um, wearing her clothing, um, buying a lot of shoes. Again,
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trans widows talk about how they go through some big life-changing event, whether that's pregnancy
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or a diagnosis of illness. And then suddenly their partner will come out with this fetish of wanting
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to be a woman and they'll, you know, expect a lot of attention for it from their wives. And it's
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very kind of narcissistic behavior, I think. Um, and in this man's case, it seems to be fitting that
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pattern. So he started ordering these shoes, uh, dressing up in his wife's clothing. Um, but then
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his, uh, narrative started to change the more that she was upset by this. And she was very open
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in the media interviews that she gave about expressing how uncomfortable she was at first,
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but then it got reframed to, I have a body integrity disorder, um, and I'm suffering and
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I need your support. And then suddenly, um, her attitude towards everything kind of changed again.
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We see that, um, as a trend as well. So yeah, then he basically started identifying as a disabled woman.
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Um, his wife had previously worked with disabled children, um, children who were in wheelchairs
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as at a kindergarten, um, which is, you know, striking to notice that. Um, and he's being celebrated.
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Uh, he was on good morning Norway last week. The outcry was tremendous as you might imagine,
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um, um, with a lot of disabled women, uh, vocalizing their disgust and outrage, um, basically having
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their identity turned into a fetish. Um, he, he has no disability and yet he got a state sponsored
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wheelchair. Um, there were women in there talking about how difficult it was for them to get financial
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aid for a wheelchair for their own child. Um, so, I mean, the outcry is there. People were very upset
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by this, but then you also have the problem of, uh, people deleting, uh, comments like good morning
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Norway was deleting comments from their Facebook page because it was called discrimination or, you know,
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it's not kind. Um, but even then still within some of the outrage, people would refer to him as
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she. So we can clearly see how insulting it is for someone to pretend to be disabled, to fit their
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fetish. And yet we cannot seem to understand how insulting it is just for women to have our identity
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It just, it really does make you wonder how many people in places of influence are at the very least
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sympathetic to the kind of perversion that we see affecting women and children. Um, people obviously
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in media, people in the political sphere. I mean, I think a lot of doctors and pharmaceutical companies,
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they're probably mostly looking at it from a profit incentive perspective. These surgeries,
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chopping off the healthy breasts of 12 year old girls. Um, we've seen that emitted from hospitals
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in places like California, chemical castration and things like that. I don't know that all those
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doctors are pedophiles, but it's hard to believe that there aren't, um, people in the organizations
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pushing these kinds of treatments and in academia, justifying these kinds of treatments by saying that
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it saves kids from suicide that aren't just complete pedophiles and perverts. It's, it's gotta be
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that sexual perversion from the very top internationally. And that sounds like a conspiracy theory,
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but then when you look at all these stories from around the world, where this is so obviously
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happening, I mean, you almost, you almost, it's almost irrational to say that there aren't people
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at the top in all these spheres of influence pushing their perverse sexuality.
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Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's a conspiracy theory at all because, um, this is the eroticization
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of power and powerlessness. And those who are inclined to do so tend to have more power than others.
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Um, also hardly anyone bats an eye at the fact that child marriage is still legal in the U S child
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marriage is still an ongoing issue around the world. Um, so when we talk about, you know,
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in the U S it's still legal in some 30 States, I believe. I did not know that.
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So yeah, it still goes on in the U S obviously to a lesser degree than in other countries, but
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it's still a problem. Um, and it's still a problem around the world. So, I mean,
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talk about a conspiracy theory. You have countries around the world that allow adult men to marry
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little girls. So no, I don't actually, I don't buy the whole, it's a conspiracy theory. I think,
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um, money combined with predatory sexual interests is a recipe for complete disaster. And we're seeing that
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now and we're seeing it spread, um, like a social contagion through social media, through the
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internet. You know, that, what you just said made me think of something because obviously in Eastern
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nations where you see child marriage as the norm, and it's not seen as a perversion at all. Um,
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in India, in the middle East, it is very normal for even pre pubescent girls to be married off to,
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um, adult men. And, but they don't have the same, they don't have gender ideology. They probably don't
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have the same access to pornography that we do. Um, it is justified in a lot of cases in just the
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beliefs or the culture that those countries have. It's just been historically normal here in the United
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States, pedophilia and child marriage has been taboo for a long time. And so I'm, this is just
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kind of a theory that I have in order to get it normalized and accepted here in the United States,
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you kind of have to go through a different avenue. We are not a theocracy. We're not some kind of
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religious authoritarian regime that allows something, um, like, uh, like pedophilia. Um, and so you have to
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play upon what I think is a traditionally kind of Christian idea or a perversion of a Christian idea
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of being nice and being tolerant and being accepting. So if you bring in the perversion of pedophilia
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as a marginalized identity that we have to, um, accept in the name of love, that we have to kind of
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protect in the name of empathy, that is how you mainstream it. That is how you normalize it. That is how you
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eventually legalize it. I think that is probably what's happened here. The kind of the traditionally
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Christian idea of loving your neighbor being exploited and manipulated, uh, into accepting something that is
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actually very harmful. Those kind of backdoor ways aren't necessary in other countries in which
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the idea that we just have to love everyone and be nice to everyone, no matter what their
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identity is, is not really mainstream. That's kind of my theory of, of why these things are ultimately
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the same ending in the exploitation of women and children, but have gone down a different path to get
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here, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think so. I think that makes sense. And I think that if you are
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someone with a predatory interest, um, you immediately gravitate towards where you can hide
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the best or get your way the easiest. Um, and so I just happened to see that, that being the case with
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the gender identity movement, um, but also within academia as well. So yeah, I, I, I think you're
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absolutely right. You have to go down a different avenue to, to get away with this because it is
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taboo. Um, but it's also really shocking to me that people aren't really putting this together,
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um, or that it seems bizarre to some people to put the two together, uh, when we consider the origins
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of the whole theorizing around this, um, that basically they've, they've taken the sexual component
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out when they use the word gender. And that was deliberate. That was by choice. Um, the man who
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is credited with having first put the word transgender into print, it might interest you to
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know, uh, Dr. John Ollivan in 1965 did that deliberately in order to, uh, kind of downplay
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the sexual aspect involved in, uh, transvestic fetishism in particular. Um, but he also,
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again, to bring it back to the wives, he would also recommend psychiatrists to convince the women
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to stay with these abusive husbands because he said, if they did not, they would act out their
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fetish in public. Wow. Wow. This is just, oh my gosh. There's so many different avenues of this to
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explore so many different parts of its history that I think are probably even unknown to people like you
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who spend a lot of time researching it. I think people just don't realize how deep its roots are
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and how it affects so many different spheres in our society. And I think it's really important. I
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think it's really important for people to know, because if people just kind of see the surface of
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what it is, it can be really easy to be manipulated and to accepting seemingly harmless things like
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taking on preferred pronouns or announcing your pronouns. But it becomes really hard to give in
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even a centimeter when you realize how deep and demonic and dark all of this is and how harmful
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it is that it strengthens your resolve. I think to push back against it and to say, you know what,
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I'm not going to give in on this at all, actually, because I think it's harmful to everyone involved.
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So that's why I'm thankful for what you do. I know it's, it's gotta be tough. Like it's gotta be
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really tough looking into all of this and reporting all of this. Like, how do you just to end our
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conversation? Like, how do you stay above water emotionally and mentally when you're inundated
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Um, it is, I get very, I lose hope sometimes, to be honest. Um, but then I feel hopeful when I see
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other people starting to have this conversation or, um, being able to speak with people who are
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quite worse impacted by this than I am, um, that really need to have their voices heard, um, to,
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to know that they're not alone. Um, I'm thinking in particular, again, of, of these wives of some of
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these men who are trying to leave them, but also the detransitioners or the children or even
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families who are affected by this. Um, I really think that as we start to bring awareness of this
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and to speak about it more, um, we're going to see more and more that people across all lines,
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um, are, are being hurt by this. Uh, and, and I, I feel hopeful that if we're honest about it and, uh,
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try to help each other and lift each other up, then I think something can be done. And I would
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just suggest, you know, starting from the top, um, going after the institutions that are promoting
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this, um, asking questions. It can be just as simple as asking questions to your friends,
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people that you trust. Um, not everyone has to do all of that heavy work or file lawsuits,
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but just trying to open up the conversation and ask some questions to each other. Do you really
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think that a child can change sex or should, uh, you know, these are, these are difficult questions
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to have with people for some reason now that it's so taboo, but it needs to be done. And I do want to
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just say, uh, this is really important for me to say, because I feel more and more that, um,
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feminism is getting blamed for this as are, um, members of the gay and lesbian community,
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which I find to be, um, quite misdirected anger, uh, because this, these groups of people are,
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have been always pushing back against this at great cost to themselves as well. Um, so I think that,
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yes, I think unfortunately there are a lot of people who, because they, their identity is just
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to say, oh, well, I'm marginalized. I'm not straight or I'm not, I'm not a white cisgender
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straight male, the kind of like apex of privilege in some people's mind. Then I have to link arms with
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all people who see themselves as marginalized. So I do think there's a lot of people who call
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themselves feminists and who are part of the LGBTQ world who absolutely advocate for a lot of this.
00:27:00.440
Sure. Sure. I'm not denying that. I am saying that because of this, it is kind of harder, um, for,
00:27:07.920
for those of us who are involved in these communities to speak up and to say something.
00:27:13.560
Um, but I would say that more or less questioning the role of sexology and academia in this is work
00:27:24.760
that needs to be done, but also at the root of this is a level of sexual entitlement. And if we lose
00:27:33.240
sight of that aspect of it, then it's just going to repeat itself, I think.
00:27:43.560
I do. I mean, we have different views on a lot of things. I don't know that I, even though we agree
00:27:54.260
on a lot of, uh, a lot of principles, I don't know that I, I mean, I don't identify as a feminist and
00:28:01.020
obviously as a Christian conservative, we have different views, but I do, I have seen that,
00:28:06.080
especially in the UK here in the U S absolutely. But I guess I've just been watching it more in the UK,
00:28:10.960
a lot of women who call themselves lesbians and lesbian feminists really have been advocating on
00:28:17.680
behalf of women and women's rights at great cost to not just, I'm not just talking about their
00:28:23.040
careers. I'm not just talking about their privileges. I'm talking about their freedoms. Like I am talking
00:28:28.000
about those who have, you know, had interactions with the police because of things that they have
00:28:34.040
set. Um, and so, and it's, it is about sexual entitlement. You do see a lot of these men saying,
00:28:40.240
oh, why won't this cisgender lesbian date me just because I have a peanut? It's very weird. It's so
0.91
00:28:47.520
I'm with you that I do think some of the anger is misdirected. And I, I do kind of cringe when
00:28:54.280
people, when I hear people say, well, where are the feminists? I'm like, they're there. They are
1.00
00:28:58.700
there. Sure. There's a lot of people who claim to be feminists who aren't, but there's a lot of you
1.00
00:29:03.720
who are. And I think, I do think that's kind of just become like a talking point on the right to
00:29:09.660
say, where are the feminists? But there are a lot of feminists out there who are speaking up about
1.00
00:29:14.180
this. I think it's funny that at the same time people ask, where are the feminists? Then people
0.89
00:29:20.280
also say it's all our fault. So I don't know. Um, certainly one of the original women to push back
1.00
00:29:28.200
on this Janice Raymond, um, in 1979. So yeah, feminist women have been talking about this for
1.00
00:29:36.680
a while. And that's the reason why there's that word turf, um, directed at feminists. But anyway,
1.00
00:29:43.520
um, thank you so much for giving me room to talk about this. And again, always, I just want people
00:29:50.120
to feel hopeful because I actually do. I think things are starting to change, um, in the U S now,
00:29:56.440
uh, the UK has been doing a lot of hard work on this, but the U S now seems to be kind of picking
00:30:01.420
up on that. So that's great. Yeah. You know, I think so too. Obviously it's disheartening every
00:30:06.600
time you see the white house endorsing something like this. Um, and so that can be really difficult,
00:30:13.420
but like you said, there's a lot of people that this is the issue that for them,
00:30:18.240
like things have just gone too far. This is, this is the issue, especially when it gets to
00:30:23.140
children. I mean, I also think it's ridiculous as adults, but especially when it gets to kids,
00:30:28.500
that's just too much for people to stomach. Like people can deny all they want to about like what
00:30:34.980
drag queen story hour is, but I'm sorry. When you see a toddler passing out dollar bills to a man
00:30:40.840
dancing in a thong and fake boobs, like most rational people are like, okay, nope, we've gone.
00:30:47.440
We've gone off the deep end here. There's something that we got to do to get it back.
00:30:52.000
And honestly, the backlash, it might be intense. I don't know what that's going to look like,
00:30:58.640
but when you push people too far, I don't know. We'll see. But I am hopeful as well,
00:31:04.080
that things can turn around on, at least on this issue. And you will have had, um, a big part to play
00:31:10.360
in that. And just the reporting that you and Anna do, by the way, Anna is a hilarious person.
00:31:15.500
I encourage everyone to follow her. Like I love following her. She's just really,
00:31:19.560
really, really funny. Um, so thank you. Thank you so much for the work you do and for taking
00:31:23.920
the time to come on. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I just want to say,
00:31:28.680
you know, Redux, we're a team. There are several of us. I'm only just speaking here today, but,
00:31:34.600
you know, we have Anna Slats and we have Shay Willahan. So, you know, I'm not the only one
00:31:40.680
and we're all working on this together. So thank you again for having me.
00:31:45.100
Yeah. I'm a huge fan of y'all. So thanks so much.
00:31:53.980
All right, guys, I hope that you enjoyed both parts of that episode. Maybe enjoyed isn't the
00:31:59.780
right word to use because I know it is so dark, but I know that you also learned a lot from it.
00:32:03.880
And it really does equip us to face the spiritual darkness that this is. And gosh,
00:32:09.380
God's way is better. His order is good. I mean, this goes all the way back to the perversion
00:32:14.180
of Genesis one. It's really just a different iteration of what we see in Romans one,
00:32:19.140
which was true thousands of years ago. People always trying to find identity and purpose and
00:32:23.680
power and profit, uh, in something other than what God calls good. And we as Christians have to
00:32:30.220
stand against it. It's part of our role here. It's part of how we glorify the Lord.
00:32:34.540
Um, all right. On Monday, we will finally be talking about the midterms. I've, I've been wanting
00:32:39.360
to talk about it. And then I was sick earlier this week. And so I didn't get that episode on
00:32:43.660
Wednesday to be able to do that. And so there is a lot that we have not been able to cover because
00:32:49.560
we've also had great guests and other things that we had to talk about. We had the reformation episode.
00:32:54.780
And so on Monday, we are going to talk politics. We're going to talk about the midterms and what's
00:32:59.160
coming up in the election and the stakes there. So make sure that you tune in for that. And I hope